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donald trump now was, the presindent if united states, he no longer is the current one 109.133.126.50 ( talk) 11:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
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Could someone remove this information, it's shamefull to me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.51.208.128 ( talk) 14:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
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With all the commotion by many editors over whether or not anybody's elected president & vice president, the mainstream media projections, the electoral college etc etc, we really should have a unified RFC on how it all should be handled. Otherwise, we're gonna go through this every 4 or 8 years. Note, it effects many other articles. GoodDay ( talk) 15:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Here's a question - (especially if he loses) would Donald Trump be the first presidential candidate to falsely claim victory? Or have there been others prior? If this is true, and if there are sources for it, I think it would be worth mentioning in this article. I can't find a record yet. ɱ (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
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Add that he started construction of the US Mexican border Wall in the intro. 3DNewEra ( talk) 00:28, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. ―
Mandruss
☎ 01:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi. I reduced archiving to 4 days now because the talk page is extrodionarily large. Feel free to revert without consulting me if I'm wrong. -- HurricaneTracker495 ( talk) 22:21, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I would like permission to edit the Domestic Policy section of the Trump wikipedia page to add in the First Step Act. This is major, bipartisan legislation that he actually signed into law, not just stated positions, and this page should reflect as much. I plan to write no more than a paragraph and link to the wikipedia article on the First Step Act. I intend neither to exaggerate nor downplay the law, but just to point out that this was a product of his presidency.
FroggyJ4 ( talk) 16:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3
Ok, thanks. I'll try again in a week; I think Social policy of Donald Trump should also be changed which doesn't seem to be locked, but there's no need for expediency. FroggyJ4 ( talk) 17:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3
Joe Biden is now President-elect of the United Status. Should we add Lame Duck and Outgoing as the status? Ciaran.london ( talk) 16:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
That’s all I’ve noticed Ciaran.london ( talk) 16:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
I think the only thing we should say in the lead is that he is projected to have lost his bid for re-election. People keep trying to add that he is filing legal challenges and promoting conspiracy theories; I think that should all be kept to the article text. There is massive edit conflicting going on as everyone tries to get their version in. Can I get either consensus here, or help in keeping the material out of the lead while we discuss it? -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
The citations over Biden succeeding Trump need to stop being vandalized by so-called "senior editors". Grow up - and stop trying to stir doubt and discourse over a clear result. EDIT: I want to request that Emir of Wikipedia have his editing rights for this page removed. He's clearly trying to propagate doubt over a clear result. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 17:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
It's not the "networks calling it" It's simple math when you count the remaining ballots left. Biden DID win the election, disputing it ANYWHERE on this site is reckless and idiotic. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Biden won the election legally, and fairly. Not including Biden as his successor is essentially legitimizing any notion put forth by the Trump campaign that the election is not over, and that the decision on who will be the next president hasn't been reached. It has. Biden is the president-elect, therefore - as has been the case with EVERY OTHER ELECTION, he must be included here. Period. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 18:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Could someone please reword in the second paragraph so as to clarify which school he attended and which school conferred his bachelor’s degree. The way it is currently worded you can’t tell what if any degree he earned from Fordham. Thorncrag 18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
clarify ... which school conferred his bachelor’s degree.I don't see anything unclear about "received a bachelor's degree in economics from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania." ― Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
There’s no need to overthink or over complicate my request. Simply changing “and” to “then” would make the reading more concise. Thorncrag 22:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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change: | successor = < !-- Joe Biden: Please see talk page before adding Joe Biden here--> to: | successor = < !-- Joe Biden:--> (take out space before between < and !
TheRealWikiUser (
talk) 18:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
What happened to the "Offices and distinctions" template which typically catalogs an elected official's positions they've held at the bottom of the article? Was it temporarily removed due to vandalism related to Biden succeeding Trump? Was it removed due to the size of the page? Was it removed accidentally? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paintspot ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I made a section about this here earlier but it got removed, maybe calling Trump a fascist straight up in article is not appropriate but it should at least be mentioned: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/06/910320018/fascism-scholar-says-u-s-is-losing-its-democratic-status https://www.businessinsider.com/is-trump-fascist-jason-stanley-says-it-is-wrong-question-2020-7 Not all of these exactly scream "trump is an accepted fascist" but they all show the debate is real and major Xqd ( talk) 06:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
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Agree. These sources are reliable. If not I think an even stronger case can ve made for mention of the word Authoritarian. Izmirlig ( talk) 01:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
I think that fascism is a bit too subjective, but it is hard to deny that he has authoritarian tendencies. Jamez517 ( talk) 21:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Fascism has taken on a different meaning and is not clearly defined as both sides of the political spectrum use that word to define their opposition. I think the term needs to be put to bed and is not suitable for an objective article BlackBird1008 ( talk) 22:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Agree. The word "Fascism" has been weaponized to its grave by both sides of the political spectrum, as have a boatload of other buzzwords. Its colloquial definition will not be agreed upon any time soon, and using it will only cause confusion. 64.98.122.56 ( talk) 08:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
He has lost re-election and we should note this in the header. - Skynorth/Starfrost my talk page 16:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Technically speaking, Trump will not have been elected out until the delegates officially vote in December. Putting such a thing in the article would be intentionally misleading. Whether or not his likelihood of maintaining the presidency is large at all, the democratic process has yet to declare him the loser of the election. Moshimaster18 ( talk) 08:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I have just applied full protection to this page per a request at RFPP. Please achieve consensus before introducing your preferred changes. I know this page is not at an optimal revision for protection; if someone who has been actively editing at this page could point me to a good revision to restore that would be appreciated. @ MelanieN and Emir of Wikipedia: perhaps? GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
q-anonshould be cased as per its article as other titles in the lede are e.g. The Apprentice. SITH (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
WHY was Biden removed from the infobox. It's our practice to put the president-elect in there. GoodDay ( talk) 18:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Not mentioning at all that major networks have called the election in favor of Biden is a disservice to public discourse. Regardless of whether or not the Electoral college actually ends up electing Biden President, the fact that every major network has called the election is newsworthy and requires mentioning on this page at this point in time. Supertowel ( talk) 18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare Thanks for all your help, but boy, I sure disagree with that call. I think we HAVE to have in the article at least the information that the networks have called it. I have been a careful stroll through the history and was coming here to suggest restoration of the 17:52 version [2]. I don't think there is anything like consensus to restore the article to status pre the election call. But it is what it is, so I will start proposing additions to the article, and if there is consensus I will request the help of an uninvolved administrator to add it. I will try not to make it be you all the time! -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you very much, GW. Somehow when you removed the disputed material, you also removed the statement in the lead saying that the networks had called it. I have listed it in the "proposed additions" below. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Well, we're 9 hours into the 12 hours of full-protection. I think it's working well, and based on other articles about the election there's still a high demand from ECP editors for edits that will not have consensus. I know it's not up for a vote, but I suggest that it be extended another 24 hours. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Just noting that the full protection has expired as of 17:57, and I've reinstated the indefinite extended-confirmed protection that was in place. I'll keep the page on my watchlist in case disruption resumes. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
The lead is too broken up and long. Even for very long articles there are rarely more than 5 paragraphs. Heck, Abraham Lincoln only has a 4 paragraph lead. To improve this I suggest: the COVID notes be added to the end of the "During his presidency..." paragraph. Then I guess we can leave the last paragraph to deal with him post presidency. Other thoughts on how to condense or shorten the lead appreciated. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 21:13, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
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I was shocked to read this article and not find anything about comparing Hitler and Trump Let's talk about this. I know there's a cultural taboo against considering Nazi ideology in the context of present day politics. However a good book comparing Trump and Hitler is Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler: Making A Serious Comparison by Horace Bloom it confronts this taboo with responsibility, entering into a serious examination of the political histories of the Third Reich and our own time. Bloom's work isn't a diatribe, but carefully pays attention to both the similarities and differences between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler, and the contexts in which they have risen to power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.163.201 ( talk) 23:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I bet you you have never even read the book it is available on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Donald-Trump-Adolf-Hitler-Comparison/dp/1530288630 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.163.201 ( talk) 23:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I think we need to revisit this, as the discussion above has stalled because of a sock's involvement, as well as a couple of editors erroneously suggesting that fascism is purely a subjective term, yet merits proper consideration. There seems to be a considerable (and growing) body of academic work on the fascistic elements of Trump's populist, authoritarian politics and his 'fascist' political style. As an aside, I've also noticed an explosion in the use of the term 'Trumpism' to describe these characteristics in analysis pieces over the last week following his election loss. I'm sure that academic writing will expand over time on this, but from a rather cursory look on JSTOR I strongly suspect there are already enough sources to warrant describing his political style as 'authoritarian', or even exhibiting 'fascistic' traits, perhaps in the presidency section. A quick search on JSTOR found 1,544 hits for "Donald Trump president authoritarian" and 714 hits for "Donald Trump president fascist".
RS media overwhelmingly take the view that one of Trump's most significant legacies will be his influence on far-right politics. I read a piece published on Friday by the Brookings Institution (a notable cut above your average newspaper editorial or think-tank) in which one of its senior fellows on governance policy wrote: "More broadly, Trump’s core appeal is the appeal of fascism: the pleasure of inflicting cruelty and humiliation on those one fears and disdains, the gratification of receiving the authoritarian’s flattery, and the exhilaration of a crowd freed from the normal strictures of law, reason and decency." [3]
Some relevant academic sources (discounting media such as RS newspapers & magazines) may include:
Should we use the term African American when referring to Barack Obama in this article? -- 246700Sarhan ( talk) 20:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
I saw it happen Saturday am; and now I'm seeing the media covering it. I think it is significant that Twitter shut down Trump's twitter account for making baseless claims etc. following the media networks calling the election for Biden. Kind of surprised to see nothing in the article about this. Seems notable. Cheers. N2e ( talk) 03:51, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Uncertain about all this mayhem, but I note that Trump has fired Defense Secretary Esper by a tweet WA POST. Perhaps, in the Social Media section, In March 2018, Trump fired his Secretary of State Rex Tillerson by tweet. could be rewritten as Trump used twitter to fire his Secretary of State Rex Tillerson in March 2018 and his Secretary of Defense Mark Esper in November 2020. Bdushaw ( talk) 18:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The removal of full protection yesterday lasted a little over an hour. Let's see if we can make it last longer today. This isn't the time for bold rewrites of the article or edit wars.
A note about edit summaries: use them. Please. When an article is receiving hundreds of edits per day it's the easiest way for people reviewing those edits to track what's going on. Say what you're doing and why you're doing it. And if you're reverting an edit, please use the edit summary to invite the user you're reverting to the talk page, linking the relevant thread if there is one. For example, in
this revert, instead of using the edit summary "per talk"
you should write something like "There is an active discussion on whether the infobox should list Biden as successor at
Talk:Donald_Trump#Survey:_"Succeeded_by"_field. Please join in that discussion and wait for a consensus to form before adding this again."
That will help get the new editors on the same page instead of inspiring people to revert war. ~
Awilley (
talk) 18:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the Political Career section says, "In the weeks following Trump's inauguration, massive anti-Trump demonstrations took place, such as the Women Marches, which gathered 2.6 million people worldwide, including 500,000 in Washington alone." Shouldn't "Women Marches" be "Women's Marches"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrytzkalmyr ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
In 5.3 Immigration, in the Family Separation at Border section, it says, "Trump falsely asserting that his administration was merely following the law, blaming Democrats, when in fact this was his administration's policy." Shouldn't this be "Trump falsely asserted that his administration was merely following the law and blamed Democrats when, in fact, this was his administration's policy"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrytzkalmyr ( talk • contribs) 01:29, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd just like to note that someone has set the URL http://loser.com to redirect to this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 22:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm just simpleton and don't know all the rules of Wikipedia, but simply juxtaposing Donald Trump and Barack Obama's wikipedia articles clearly show this. You can see how Barack Obama's page focuses on all the positive aspects of Obama and Donald Trump's lead focuses on all the negative aspects of Trump. I did not vote for Trump, so this has nothing to do with my own personal bias. Not a single "negative" thing Obama did is covered in the lead and almost everything about Trump is negative. Can this not clearly be seen? I think both sides should have representation in what each President did that was considered both positive and negative. Flag this any way you want, but it's clear as day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:2200:907:f45e:3faf:8f02:a1f9 ( talk) 18:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
he took none of the substantive actions that would have saved tens of thousands of lives, which is what I was referring to. I haven't made an argument against it, unless you consider that calling it biased is an argument, except to say that I don't think we should do that. So no, I didn't "throw it up, original and irrelevant". I have been quite thorough in responding to the points raised by editors here, but please do restate any points you think I have not addressed, either here or on my talk page. Thanks. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 03:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
No, there is no "bias against the subject of the article" whatsoever, on the contrary. This article goes out of its way to treat the subject in a less critical manner than how he is portrayed by every reliable source on the planet, and to give him every possible benefit of the doubt, and to water down criticism. The critical material is just the bare minimum required for us to not seem like Fox News or Breitbart (the "source" most frequently cited by Trump on Twitter after his election defeat).
In sum, mainstream, centrist editors aren't very happy with this article because of its countless compromises resulting in a very mild treatment of Trump. A claim that the article is biased against Trump would seem to be based on the assumption that Wikipedia should treat the views of fringe, extremist publications like Breitbart as equally valid (WP:FALSEBALANCE) as the views of NYT, CNN etc., and that will never happen. -- Tataral ( talk) 20:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Apologies if this is a repeat or a duplicate. If it's either, let me know and I'll withdraw it.
Two significant issues, and I'm not feeling inclined to BOLD either of them. To my shame, I'm better at identifying problems like these than fixing them.
Re the election, the body only has a short paragraph at the end of the campaign section. That seems structurally wrong, as the campaign ended on Election Day. Shouldn't there be an election section, even if it's a short one?
Re the election, the lead contains more details than the body, violating MOS:LEAD. The lead "wins" in word count, 61 to 49. One possible remedy would be to add words to the body, after which that election section wouldn't be quite so short. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:34, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Parts of this bio are partisan and frankly not true. Especially the racist claims. Perhaps when it comes to accusations, they can be notated with "his opponents say"
2601:548:C101:58B0:48:C67E:D6BA:14A8 ( talk) 15:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I’d argue that unless there are Donald Trump quotes associated with the claims of racism, then they should be removed. The term “racist” has become a politically charged word that has lost its effect because of its wide spread use by politicians and media pundits. Claims of racism by Donald Trump not specifically sourced by a Donald Trump quote would violate WP:NPOV and would be seen as a left leaning bias. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 20:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
A lot of this is speculation. Some of the sources are opinion pieces. The only source that could pass muster is the one about Trump saying “knock the crap out of them” when referencing tomato throwers at his rallies in 2016. I don’t think that someone invoking Trump when caught committing acts of violence is Trump inciting violence. As for hate crimes going up, that’s all speculative, they also went up during Obama’s tenure. I’d like to see this section deleted because it does not add value to the article and it can come across as violating WP:NPOV BlackBird1008 ( talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
-I’d ask this question, if we are going to include this material in the Donald Trump article, then shouldn’t we add this type of section into every public figure who has applauded attacks on Trump supporters? BlackBird1008 ( talk) 20:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
every public figuredoes not have the visibility and influence of the president of the United States. Not even close. ― Mandruss ☎ 09:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
-I'd like to ask, Is there a reason that Trump's three nominations for the Noble Peace Prize and the Middle East peace agreements are not in the lead/article? The article itself seems to be stuck on one theme. Is there nothing of value in this man's accomplishments to add to this BLP? Mind, I do not have a dog in this fight, I would not attempt to edit this article, but perhaps get some fresh eyes on the article? Bodding ( talk) 21:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
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Why does the lead section need to contain the biased explanation about Trump not winning the popular vote? The fact is that he won the 2016 election per the rules of the election, which is the Electoral College. The detail about popular vote can be contained in a non-lead section of this article as well as the article about the 2016 presidential election itself. Including it in the lead of the Trump article simply serves as an attempt to de-legitimize it. -- 2600:1700:FDF1:1FC0:1829:7658:7D23:7C29 ( talk) 02:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
In the Iran section of Foreign Policy, the 4th sentence says, "After withdrawing from the agreement, Trump administration moved forward with a policy of "maximum pressure" on Iran via economic sanctions, but without support of other parties to the deal." This sentence is missing a "the" before "Trump administration." Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 02:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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In the intro, the bit about the ACA says, "He enacted a tax-cut package for individuals and businesses, rescinding the individual health insurance mandate penalty of the Affordable Care Act, but has failed to repeal and replace the ACA as a whole." Failed is a very strong word here. I propose changing this to "... but has not repealed and replaced the ACA as a whole." This sounds less accusatory and more unbiased, in my opinion. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 13:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged irregularities in the 2020 United States Presidential election. — Bilorv ( talk) 20:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
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This
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Donald Trump is not the current president of the United States of America, Joe Biden is. Jefferson cunhas ( talk) 00:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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I don't think the part about SNL parodies in Popular Culture is necessary. SNL parodies a lot of people. Why is Trump special out of them that makes a mention warranted? Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 22:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
a lot of people. ― Mandruss ☎ 23:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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Penultimate paragraph of Impeachment: "On February 5, Trump was acquitted of both charges in a vote nearly along party lines, with Republican Mitt Romney voting to convict on one of the charges." One of the charges? Shouldn't we be more specific and say that he voted to convict on abuse of power? The NYT article that this information is sourced to does say that specifically as well. I suppose we could also say "... but not obstruction of Congress" or something like that for clarification. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 14:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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former president 0123cooookies ( talk) 05:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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Donald Trump was not reelected in the 2020 presidential election. 46.114.5.19 ( talk) 07:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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Grammar change: For the 2020 presidential election section, sentence should be "The campaign's cash crunch forced a scale-back in advertising spending" instead of "The campaign's cash crunch forcing a scale-back in advertising spending." Cookies And Creme (talk) 00:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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Per https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-fires-chris-krebs-top-cybersecurity-official-in-department-of-homeland-security-11605659868#:~:text=Mr.%20Krebs'%20deputy%2C%20Matthew,familiar%20with%20the%20matter%20said.&text=Mr.%20Wales%20is%20a%20career,White%20House%20to%20remove%20him., Matthew Travis, the person who was next in line after Chris Krebs, resigned today. Should we add this after the portion about Krebs's firing? Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 04:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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The page is currently set to extended confirmed, otherwise I would've just made the change. But Joe Biden has Trump listed as his predecessor, and Kamala Harris has Mike Pence as predecessor. Both this article and the Mike Pence article should have the successors to match Biden and Harris, right? Zacatero ( talk) 02:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
It is reported by several sources today that Biden plans to reverse many of Trump's signature policy actions sometime before dinner on 1/21. We should consider how this will be handled in the article and its presentation of Trump's achievements and legacy. See, e.g. Biden plans immediate flurry of executive orders to reverse Trump policies. Also Biden Could Roll Back Trump Agenda With Blitz of Executive Actions SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Please start a new subsection for each proposal. If there is consensus to add a particular fact let's not quibble about the wording, but try to get rapid consensus so we can find an uninvolved administrator to make the addition.
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I propose to add In the
2020 U.S. presidential election, major news organizations have projected that Trump lost his bid for re-election.
--
MelanieN (
talk) 18:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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I propose to add On November 7, 2020, after four days of vote counting, most major news outlets projected Biden as the winner of the presidential election.
[1]
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MelanieN (
talk) 18:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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I propose to add Trump indicated that he does not accept this result and said "this election is far from over". He revived his claims of election fraud and said he will continue to launch legal challenges in key swing states.
[2]
--
MelanieN (
talk) 18:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Sources
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Tataral has proposed: We should also include something about when he will be succeeded by president-elect Biden, along the lines of what what added to Obama's article in 2016 ("On January 20, 2017, Obama will be succeeded by President-elect Donald Trump").-- MelanieN ( talk) 19:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
An encyclopedia needs to be clear and accurate, I have not proposed any content about this minor point. I suggest we move on. ― Mandruss ☎ 12:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is projected to be succeeded by President-elect Joe Biden? El komodos drago ( talk to me) 20:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is not Obamaare meritless; the constant argument that the presidency is nothing in the context of Trump's life is baloney. Once you're a president, you're remembered in history for being a president. Not for running The Apprentice. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 14:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I note that the section "2020 presidential campaign" still has much of the text in the incorrect past-tense (unsure of the technical term): "have focused" rather than "focused", "has repeatedly" rather than "repeatedly", "Several sources described Trump's campaign message as shifting" perhaps "Several sources opined that the Trump campaign shifted" (or something like that; unsure of the use of weasel words), etc. Perhaps a general update is in order. While I am here, IMO that Trump has not yet conceded is of unprecedented, historical nature and should be noted, with "conceded" being an important word. e.g., WA Post, Guardian, USA Today. (Thx to everyone for all their attentiveness!) Bdushaw ( talk) 17:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Should I add a section about the current Trump attitude towards the 2020 USA Presidential elections? It's quite a unique behavior and unprecedented by any incumbent or even nominee. His twitter campaign towards the legitimacy of the elections, his flagged tweets, his claims of victory, etc. I think it's a biogrophically significant part of his presidency and is a potential paragraph that's significant regardless of the elections' outcomes. Dr.EbrahimSaadawi ( talk) 14:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
At this point in time it is becomming more and more clear than Donald Trump has lost this election. Joe Biden has Huge leads in all the major key states. Trump's efforts to reverse those results have failed countless times. About 90% of them have been dismissed due to lack of evdience and the fact they only affect a really small number of votes. There is no way Trump wins this election. World Leaders, Politicians, and many others have declared Joe Biden the President-elect. Hell, this wikipedia's President-elect page has Biden as the president-elect. I think it is about time to add the successor to this page. I mean the odds of Trump overriding Biden's huge leads are slim to none and Republican leaders are beginning to accept it. Phoenix X Maximus ( talk) 19:59, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
This section desperately needs a revision, because it's blatantly trying to undermine the result of the election. The media didn't project anything - they used the data that was given to them by the states, which determined based on the counted ballots that Biden won Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia - thus winning him the election. I don't know if basic math is beyond some people with the right to edit this article, or if you have an agenda that would imply an intent to misinform readers in the article - but this is nothing if not a misrepresentation of facts. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 22:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Not what I was suggesting at all. It needs to be stated clearly and definitively that Trump lost the election, because he did. The states in which Biden won have a margin of difference based on the counted ballots that make it very clear that Biden won the election. To imply at all that it was "news outlets" that declared Biden the winner is again, misrepresenting the facts.
Those are the only clear options. It's a small change but it's a needed one, especially right now when there are still parties trying to undermine the result of an election that - has been decided, sans a few states that haven't finished voting but wouldn't give Trump the electoral votes needed to win. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 22:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
"Although Democratic nominee Joe Biden is now president-elect Joe Biden, there are still quite a few steps left in the US electoral process. He is projected to win, but a few more things have to take place before it becomes official. Here’s what happens now, and when it has to be done by.
When American citizens vote for a presidential candidate, they really are voting for electors in their state. Those electors in most cases are committed to support the voters’ candidate of choice. The number of electors is equal to the number of electoral votes held by each state.
8 December: this is the deadline for resolving election disputes at the state level. All state recounts and court contests over presidential election results are to be completed by this date.
14 December: electors vote by paper ballot in their respective state capitols and also in the District of Columbia, which while it is the seat of the US government, is not actually a state. Thirty-three states and DC have laws or party regulations requiring electors to vote the same way the popular vote goes in the state. In some states, electors can even be replaced or subjected to penalties if they do not toe the line. An elector who doesn’t vote according to who won the popular vote is known as a “faithless elector”. The votes for president and vice-president are counted and the electors sign six “certificates of the vote”. The certificates, along with other official papers, are sent by registered mail to various officials, including the president of the Senate.
23 December: the certificates must be delivered to the designated officials.
6 January 2021: the House and Senate hold a joint session to count the electoral votes. If one ticket has received 270 or more electoral votes, the president of the Senate, currently vice-president Mike Pence, announces the results."
Thus the line "Biden is projected to win" or "Trump is projected to lose" is currently correct, in terms of the stage the election process is in. GUtt01 ( talk) 22:51, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Oppose The media does not determine who wins or loses; the electoral college decides. Thus the current wording is more correcting than declaring he objectively won or lost. Saying he lost would be "misrepresenting" as you claim Anon0098 ( talk) 23:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Did we wait to list Trump as Obama's successor? No. He was declared the winner unanimously by virtually every editor on here, and the article reflects such. Go back to the revision history and you can see for yourself. The rules don't suddenly chance because you don't like the result this time. This is how every president-elect has been treated on this site since it's conception - we edit accordingly, with the information we have. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 23:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump has lost reelection, as clearly stated in the relevant article. Massaging this fact may placate his followers, but doing so is not encyclopedic as it muddies the waters for the wider readership. 2A0C:5BC0:40:107B:6852:6195:FDF4:DD65 ( talk) 09:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Have any news organisation denies Donny lost? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I understand the need to remain neutral with regard to withholding the declaration that Trump lost the election until it has been verified by the official electoral college votes in December. Also, I appreciate that it is not being denied by those in charge that Biden is in fact the president-elect. However, in this case, choosing this neutrality helps spread misinformation because making this issue a debate undermines democracy. This is because it gaslights people into thinking that the election was stolen, and that Biden did not win. The truth is that Biden won the election, and this is not my opinion. It is a fact, verified by multiple media outlets, as well as world leaders who have recognized Biden as the next president, including Boris Johnson, a right-wing leader resembling Trump himself. Additionally, I see a double standard compared to 2016, when Wikipedia did not wait until the electors officially cast their votes in December to declare that Hillary Clinton lost and that Trump would succeed Obama as the next president.
Therefore, those in charge here need to understand that waiting until the electors have cast their votes to declare Biden the winner, saying that the media projects Biden will win, as opposed to saying that he won, and other forms of neutrality with regard to this issue are just as complicit in spreading misinformation and undermining democracy as overtly stating that Biden is not the next president.
Again, I understand why neutrality is important. It stops the spread of misinformation and helps weed out bias. Nevertheless, there are exceptions to every rule, and this is one of them, for in this case, being neutral helps spread misinformation and allows bias that favors Trump’s claims that the election was stolen to persist. I therefore politely implore those in charge here to reconsider their neutral stance in this instance. I’m looking at you, Mandruss. Ascarboro97 ( talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Bullet #48 does not belong under "current consensus," and the comment commanding users not to edit the Covid paragraph is inappropriate. The bullet suggests only that there is consensus for a paragraph on Trump's handling of the pandemic, not specific wording, and it specifically notes that prior discussions did not reach consensus on wording.
Instead, the term "status quo" is used, which does not reflect any policy disallowing further changes. This is a rather ham-handed effort to imply there is consensus where there is none and order users not to make changes to material without any grounding in policy or prior discussion. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 06:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
References
No, I don't think it's odd at all that editors are allowed to make changes to text, because I was the one who saw the problems with the text weeks ago, and I still see them present in the text now. You are misrepresenting past discussions by claiming greater involvement than there was, asserting consensus where there is none, and are behaving as if WP:OWN doesn't apply and only you or editors you agree with are allowed to make textual changes. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
And by the way, you are totally entitled to your opinion, to disagree with me, and boldly revert my changes. What I am advocating here goes both ways. But do not make up consensus where there is none. The notion of "status quo" is non-binding and has no implication other than as a term of art or a suggestion for a particular variant. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
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This article is smothered in left-leaning bias. Could the writer please keep personal opinions off the page? Every paragraph oozes with hate. Disgusting. Amaideach ( talk) 00:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
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say trump is no onger president and it is fake news 131.109.147.105 ( talk) 15:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
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There is no mention of al-Baghdadi anywhere in the article. Yes, Trump merely approved the mission, but considering that bin Laden's death has a whole section on Obama's page, I think this should get at least a mention. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 02:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
That's impossible until the electors meet. 139.138.6.121 ( talk) 22:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Biden is now the President-Electis patently false, until the Electoral College votes. Until then, Biden is the presumptive president-elect. They are not the same thing, and, even if unlikely, it is within the realm of realistic possibility that the presumption will be proven wrong. We can't predict what courts might do with much certainty. The argument for inclusion is that we should ignore the "presumptive" factor because most sources are doing so. As for 2016, WP:CCC. ― Mandruss ☎ 02:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
The argument for inclusion is that we should ignore the "presumptive" factor because most sources are doing so.And that's a good reason for ignoring it. We follow Reliable Sources, remember? Our article does say some version of "news media called the election" rather than "he was elected", but otherwise we are treating him as the president-elect. As we have done with every previous president. Let it go, Mandruss. You may be technically correct, but WP:Verifiability, not truth, remember? -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
It would seem out of step with the way the encyclopedia works to have us make a different call than a consensus of reliable sources. This seems especially true given the nature of the term President Elect, which is informal and there is even federal law that allows for the government to designate the president elect before the Electoral College vote. From our article: "The president-elect is the common or honorific title accorded to the person who conclusively appears to have won a presidential election in the United States [...]" In short, due the nature of the title President-elect, regular WP:RS rules apply" -- Tataral ( talk) 04:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Why are we arguing about this specific section when the Wikipedia Page for Mike Pence has the section about "Vice President-Elect" Kamala Harris. If that can be put onto the page of Vice President Pence, why can't that be done for President Trump's page? User_talk:MyJunoBaldwin 17:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
References
All sources including Fox News have named Biden president-elect. I agree, he should be in the successor category to POTUS. AjayTO ( talk) 06:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Seems this argument was had 4 years ago. If we want to be 100% accurate? then yes, only the electors themselves got elected on November 3. So far 279 Biden pledged electors & 217 Trump pledged electors, with 42 left to be decided. Do we wanna wait until December 14 for the Electoral College to do the actual voting for president & vice president? then Congress certifying it all on January 6? GoodDay ( talk) 14:41, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I think at this point in time it is going to hard to deny reality. Joe Biden is the president-elect. Yes Trump has decided to challenge the results in courts but a huge majority of them have been thrown out/dismissed due to lack of evidence. There are zero signs that Trump is going to win re-election. None. Everybody at this point in time has accepted it. Even Wikipedia has. The President-elect page for instance has Joe Biden as president-elect, There is a page dedicated to Biden's inauguration,etc... . World Leaders, Politicians, and many others have already come to accept Biden as the 46th president. I don't see why we should wait for the next year when the result is painfully obvious. Phoenix X Maximus ( talk) 20:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
I agree we should include the elect because Biden is going to be the next president. Whether we like it or not. Pentock ( talk) 03:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
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This line: "On election night, November 5, with the result unclear, Trump declared victory.[843] On November 7, most major news outlets projected Biden as the winner.[844] In response, Trump said, "this election is far from over". He alleged election fraud without providing evidence and said he would continue to launch legal challenges in key states." contains incorrect information. Election night was November 3rd, 2020. Request that the date be updated to accurately reflect the correct timeframe. 68.202.210.41 ( talk) 13:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This was my fault. I screwed up, sorry. starship .paint ( talk) 11:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Suggested:On Election Day, November 3, the results were unclear, but nevertheless, early on November 4, Trump declared victory
― Mandruss ☎ 23:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. The following morning, with the election results unclear due to slower ballot counting in several states, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
― Mandruss ☎ 00:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. At 2:00 the following morning, with the election results unclear due to slower ballot counting in several states, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
― Mandruss ☎ 01:42, 14 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. At 2:00 the following morning, with the election results unclear, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
Saying that it was the "following morning" seems misleading to me. I addressed that concern by adding the time-of-day, which removed the ambiguity. Now you're saying the time-of-day is unnecessary. As for your quest for an undefined and unexplained "elegance", we are not writing literature here. All we need is to follow the usual goals of good non-fiction writing, such as correct grammar, clarity, flow, avoidance of repetitiveness and redundancy, and so forth, and I don't think the status quo language does that very well at all. That "but nevertheless" seems particularly grating to my ear. I'm at a loss to understand what would satisfy you at this point, so I'm going ahead with a BOLD edit. ― Mandruss ☎ 03:51, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is the first US president to (1) lose the popular vote (twice), (2) be impeached AND (3) fail to win reelection. Please add this noteworthy accomplishment to the lede. 2A0C:5BC0:40:107B:6852:6195:FDF4:DD65 ( talk) 09:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 120 | ← | Archive 124 | Archive 125 | Archive 126 | Archive 127 | Archive 128 | → | Archive 130 |
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donald trump now was, the presindent if united states, he no longer is the current one 109.133.126.50 ( talk) 11:44, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Could someone remove this information, it's shamefull to me... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.51.208.128 ( talk) 14:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With all the commotion by many editors over whether or not anybody's elected president & vice president, the mainstream media projections, the electoral college etc etc, we really should have a unified RFC on how it all should be handled. Otherwise, we're gonna go through this every 4 or 8 years. Note, it effects many other articles. GoodDay ( talk) 15:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Here's a question - (especially if he loses) would Donald Trump be the first presidential candidate to falsely claim victory? Or have there been others prior? If this is true, and if there are sources for it, I think it would be worth mentioning in this article. I can't find a record yet. ɱ (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
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Add that he started construction of the US Mexican border Wall in the intro. 3DNewEra ( talk) 00:28, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. ―
Mandruss
☎ 01:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
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Hi. I reduced archiving to 4 days now because the talk page is extrodionarily large. Feel free to revert without consulting me if I'm wrong. -- HurricaneTracker495 ( talk) 22:21, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I would like permission to edit the Domestic Policy section of the Trump wikipedia page to add in the First Step Act. This is major, bipartisan legislation that he actually signed into law, not just stated positions, and this page should reflect as much. I plan to write no more than a paragraph and link to the wikipedia article on the First Step Act. I intend neither to exaggerate nor downplay the law, but just to point out that this was a product of his presidency.
FroggyJ4 ( talk) 16:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3
Ok, thanks. I'll try again in a week; I think Social policy of Donald Trump should also be changed which doesn't seem to be locked, but there's no need for expediency. FroggyJ4 ( talk) 17:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)FroggyJ4 2020nov3
Joe Biden is now President-elect of the United Status. Should we add Lame Duck and Outgoing as the status? Ciaran.london ( talk) 16:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
That’s all I’ve noticed Ciaran.london ( talk) 16:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
I think the only thing we should say in the lead is that he is projected to have lost his bid for re-election. People keep trying to add that he is filing legal challenges and promoting conspiracy theories; I think that should all be kept to the article text. There is massive edit conflicting going on as everyone tries to get their version in. Can I get either consensus here, or help in keeping the material out of the lead while we discuss it? -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
The citations over Biden succeeding Trump need to stop being vandalized by so-called "senior editors". Grow up - and stop trying to stir doubt and discourse over a clear result. EDIT: I want to request that Emir of Wikipedia have his editing rights for this page removed. He's clearly trying to propagate doubt over a clear result. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 17:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
It's not the "networks calling it" It's simple math when you count the remaining ballots left. Biden DID win the election, disputing it ANYWHERE on this site is reckless and idiotic. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Biden won the election legally, and fairly. Not including Biden as his successor is essentially legitimizing any notion put forth by the Trump campaign that the election is not over, and that the decision on who will be the next president hasn't been reached. It has. Biden is the president-elect, therefore - as has been the case with EVERY OTHER ELECTION, he must be included here. Period. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 18:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Could someone please reword in the second paragraph so as to clarify which school he attended and which school conferred his bachelor’s degree. The way it is currently worded you can’t tell what if any degree he earned from Fordham. Thorncrag 18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
clarify ... which school conferred his bachelor’s degree.I don't see anything unclear about "received a bachelor's degree in economics from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania." ― Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
There’s no need to overthink or over complicate my request. Simply changing “and” to “then” would make the reading more concise. Thorncrag 22:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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change: | successor = < !-- Joe Biden: Please see talk page before adding Joe Biden here--> to: | successor = < !-- Joe Biden:--> (take out space before between < and !
TheRealWikiUser (
talk) 18:39, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
What happened to the "Offices and distinctions" template which typically catalogs an elected official's positions they've held at the bottom of the article? Was it temporarily removed due to vandalism related to Biden succeeding Trump? Was it removed due to the size of the page? Was it removed accidentally? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paintspot ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I made a section about this here earlier but it got removed, maybe calling Trump a fascist straight up in article is not appropriate but it should at least be mentioned: https://www.npr.org/2020/09/06/910320018/fascism-scholar-says-u-s-is-losing-its-democratic-status https://www.businessinsider.com/is-trump-fascist-jason-stanley-says-it-is-wrong-question-2020-7 Not all of these exactly scream "trump is an accepted fascist" but they all show the debate is real and major Xqd ( talk) 06:21, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
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Agree. These sources are reliable. If not I think an even stronger case can ve made for mention of the word Authoritarian. Izmirlig ( talk) 01:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
I think that fascism is a bit too subjective, but it is hard to deny that he has authoritarian tendencies. Jamez517 ( talk) 21:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Fascism has taken on a different meaning and is not clearly defined as both sides of the political spectrum use that word to define their opposition. I think the term needs to be put to bed and is not suitable for an objective article BlackBird1008 ( talk) 22:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Agree. The word "Fascism" has been weaponized to its grave by both sides of the political spectrum, as have a boatload of other buzzwords. Its colloquial definition will not be agreed upon any time soon, and using it will only cause confusion. 64.98.122.56 ( talk) 08:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
He has lost re-election and we should note this in the header. - Skynorth/Starfrost my talk page 16:51, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Technically speaking, Trump will not have been elected out until the delegates officially vote in December. Putting such a thing in the article would be intentionally misleading. Whether or not his likelihood of maintaining the presidency is large at all, the democratic process has yet to declare him the loser of the election. Moshimaster18 ( talk) 08:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
I have just applied full protection to this page per a request at RFPP. Please achieve consensus before introducing your preferred changes. I know this page is not at an optimal revision for protection; if someone who has been actively editing at this page could point me to a good revision to restore that would be appreciated. @ MelanieN and Emir of Wikipedia: perhaps? GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
q-anonshould be cased as per its article as other titles in the lede are e.g. The Apprentice. SITH (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
WHY was Biden removed from the infobox. It's our practice to put the president-elect in there. GoodDay ( talk) 18:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Not mentioning at all that major networks have called the election in favor of Biden is a disservice to public discourse. Regardless of whether or not the Electoral college actually ends up electing Biden President, the fact that every major network has called the election is newsworthy and requires mentioning on this page at this point in time. Supertowel ( talk) 18:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
GorillaWarfare Thanks for all your help, but boy, I sure disagree with that call. I think we HAVE to have in the article at least the information that the networks have called it. I have been a careful stroll through the history and was coming here to suggest restoration of the 17:52 version [2]. I don't think there is anything like consensus to restore the article to status pre the election call. But it is what it is, so I will start proposing additions to the article, and if there is consensus I will request the help of an uninvolved administrator to add it. I will try not to make it be you all the time! -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you very much, GW. Somehow when you removed the disputed material, you also removed the statement in the lead saying that the networks had called it. I have listed it in the "proposed additions" below. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Well, we're 9 hours into the 12 hours of full-protection. I think it's working well, and based on other articles about the election there's still a high demand from ECP editors for edits that will not have consensus. I know it's not up for a vote, but I suggest that it be extended another 24 hours. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 03:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Just noting that the full protection has expired as of 17:57, and I've reinstated the indefinite extended-confirmed protection that was in place. I'll keep the page on my watchlist in case disruption resumes. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
The lead is too broken up and long. Even for very long articles there are rarely more than 5 paragraphs. Heck, Abraham Lincoln only has a 4 paragraph lead. To improve this I suggest: the COVID notes be added to the end of the "During his presidency..." paragraph. Then I guess we can leave the last paragraph to deal with him post presidency. Other thoughts on how to condense or shorten the lead appreciated. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 21:13, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
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I was shocked to read this article and not find anything about comparing Hitler and Trump Let's talk about this. I know there's a cultural taboo against considering Nazi ideology in the context of present day politics. However a good book comparing Trump and Hitler is Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler: Making A Serious Comparison by Horace Bloom it confronts this taboo with responsibility, entering into a serious examination of the political histories of the Third Reich and our own time. Bloom's work isn't a diatribe, but carefully pays attention to both the similarities and differences between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler, and the contexts in which they have risen to power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.163.201 ( talk) 23:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I bet you you have never even read the book it is available on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Donald-Trump-Adolf-Hitler-Comparison/dp/1530288630 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.163.201 ( talk) 23:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
I think we need to revisit this, as the discussion above has stalled because of a sock's involvement, as well as a couple of editors erroneously suggesting that fascism is purely a subjective term, yet merits proper consideration. There seems to be a considerable (and growing) body of academic work on the fascistic elements of Trump's populist, authoritarian politics and his 'fascist' political style. As an aside, I've also noticed an explosion in the use of the term 'Trumpism' to describe these characteristics in analysis pieces over the last week following his election loss. I'm sure that academic writing will expand over time on this, but from a rather cursory look on JSTOR I strongly suspect there are already enough sources to warrant describing his political style as 'authoritarian', or even exhibiting 'fascistic' traits, perhaps in the presidency section. A quick search on JSTOR found 1,544 hits for "Donald Trump president authoritarian" and 714 hits for "Donald Trump president fascist".
RS media overwhelmingly take the view that one of Trump's most significant legacies will be his influence on far-right politics. I read a piece published on Friday by the Brookings Institution (a notable cut above your average newspaper editorial or think-tank) in which one of its senior fellows on governance policy wrote: "More broadly, Trump’s core appeal is the appeal of fascism: the pleasure of inflicting cruelty and humiliation on those one fears and disdains, the gratification of receiving the authoritarian’s flattery, and the exhilaration of a crowd freed from the normal strictures of law, reason and decency." [3]
Some relevant academic sources (discounting media such as RS newspapers & magazines) may include:
Should we use the term African American when referring to Barack Obama in this article? -- 246700Sarhan ( talk) 20:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
I saw it happen Saturday am; and now I'm seeing the media covering it. I think it is significant that Twitter shut down Trump's twitter account for making baseless claims etc. following the media networks calling the election for Biden. Kind of surprised to see nothing in the article about this. Seems notable. Cheers. N2e ( talk) 03:51, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Uncertain about all this mayhem, but I note that Trump has fired Defense Secretary Esper by a tweet WA POST. Perhaps, in the Social Media section, In March 2018, Trump fired his Secretary of State Rex Tillerson by tweet. could be rewritten as Trump used twitter to fire his Secretary of State Rex Tillerson in March 2018 and his Secretary of Defense Mark Esper in November 2020. Bdushaw ( talk) 18:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The removal of full protection yesterday lasted a little over an hour. Let's see if we can make it last longer today. This isn't the time for bold rewrites of the article or edit wars.
A note about edit summaries: use them. Please. When an article is receiving hundreds of edits per day it's the easiest way for people reviewing those edits to track what's going on. Say what you're doing and why you're doing it. And if you're reverting an edit, please use the edit summary to invite the user you're reverting to the talk page, linking the relevant thread if there is one. For example, in
this revert, instead of using the edit summary "per talk"
you should write something like "There is an active discussion on whether the infobox should list Biden as successor at
Talk:Donald_Trump#Survey:_"Succeeded_by"_field. Please join in that discussion and wait for a consensus to form before adding this again."
That will help get the new editors on the same page instead of inspiring people to revert war. ~
Awilley (
talk) 18:29, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The last paragraph of the Political Career section says, "In the weeks following Trump's inauguration, massive anti-Trump demonstrations took place, such as the Women Marches, which gathered 2.6 million people worldwide, including 500,000 in Washington alone." Shouldn't "Women Marches" be "Women's Marches"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrytzkalmyr ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
In 5.3 Immigration, in the Family Separation at Border section, it says, "Trump falsely asserting that his administration was merely following the law, blaming Democrats, when in fact this was his administration's policy." Shouldn't this be "Trump falsely asserted that his administration was merely following the law and blamed Democrats when, in fact, this was his administration's policy"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrytzkalmyr ( talk • contribs) 01:29, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
I'd just like to note that someone has set the URL http://loser.com to redirect to this article. -- The Anome ( talk) 22:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm just simpleton and don't know all the rules of Wikipedia, but simply juxtaposing Donald Trump and Barack Obama's wikipedia articles clearly show this. You can see how Barack Obama's page focuses on all the positive aspects of Obama and Donald Trump's lead focuses on all the negative aspects of Trump. I did not vote for Trump, so this has nothing to do with my own personal bias. Not a single "negative" thing Obama did is covered in the lead and almost everything about Trump is negative. Can this not clearly be seen? I think both sides should have representation in what each President did that was considered both positive and negative. Flag this any way you want, but it's clear as day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8805:2200:907:f45e:3faf:8f02:a1f9 ( talk) 18:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
he took none of the substantive actions that would have saved tens of thousands of lives, which is what I was referring to. I haven't made an argument against it, unless you consider that calling it biased is an argument, except to say that I don't think we should do that. So no, I didn't "throw it up, original and irrelevant". I have been quite thorough in responding to the points raised by editors here, but please do restate any points you think I have not addressed, either here or on my talk page. Thanks. Onetwothreeip ( talk) 03:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
No, there is no "bias against the subject of the article" whatsoever, on the contrary. This article goes out of its way to treat the subject in a less critical manner than how he is portrayed by every reliable source on the planet, and to give him every possible benefit of the doubt, and to water down criticism. The critical material is just the bare minimum required for us to not seem like Fox News or Breitbart (the "source" most frequently cited by Trump on Twitter after his election defeat).
In sum, mainstream, centrist editors aren't very happy with this article because of its countless compromises resulting in a very mild treatment of Trump. A claim that the article is biased against Trump would seem to be based on the assumption that Wikipedia should treat the views of fringe, extremist publications like Breitbart as equally valid (WP:FALSEBALANCE) as the views of NYT, CNN etc., and that will never happen. -- Tataral ( talk) 20:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Apologies if this is a repeat or a duplicate. If it's either, let me know and I'll withdraw it.
Two significant issues, and I'm not feeling inclined to BOLD either of them. To my shame, I'm better at identifying problems like these than fixing them.
Re the election, the body only has a short paragraph at the end of the campaign section. That seems structurally wrong, as the campaign ended on Election Day. Shouldn't there be an election section, even if it's a short one?
Re the election, the lead contains more details than the body, violating MOS:LEAD. The lead "wins" in word count, 61 to 49. One possible remedy would be to add words to the body, after which that election section wouldn't be quite so short. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:34, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Parts of this bio are partisan and frankly not true. Especially the racist claims. Perhaps when it comes to accusations, they can be notated with "his opponents say"
2601:548:C101:58B0:48:C67E:D6BA:14A8 ( talk) 15:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
I’d argue that unless there are Donald Trump quotes associated with the claims of racism, then they should be removed. The term “racist” has become a politically charged word that has lost its effect because of its wide spread use by politicians and media pundits. Claims of racism by Donald Trump not specifically sourced by a Donald Trump quote would violate WP:NPOV and would be seen as a left leaning bias. BlackBird1008 ( talk) 20:59, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
A lot of this is speculation. Some of the sources are opinion pieces. The only source that could pass muster is the one about Trump saying “knock the crap out of them” when referencing tomato throwers at his rallies in 2016. I don’t think that someone invoking Trump when caught committing acts of violence is Trump inciting violence. As for hate crimes going up, that’s all speculative, they also went up during Obama’s tenure. I’d like to see this section deleted because it does not add value to the article and it can come across as violating WP:NPOV BlackBird1008 ( talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
-I’d ask this question, if we are going to include this material in the Donald Trump article, then shouldn’t we add this type of section into every public figure who has applauded attacks on Trump supporters? BlackBird1008 ( talk) 20:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
every public figuredoes not have the visibility and influence of the president of the United States. Not even close. ― Mandruss ☎ 09:33, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
-I'd like to ask, Is there a reason that Trump's three nominations for the Noble Peace Prize and the Middle East peace agreements are not in the lead/article? The article itself seems to be stuck on one theme. Is there nothing of value in this man's accomplishments to add to this BLP? Mind, I do not have a dog in this fight, I would not attempt to edit this article, but perhaps get some fresh eyes on the article? Bodding ( talk) 21:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
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Why does the lead section need to contain the biased explanation about Trump not winning the popular vote? The fact is that he won the 2016 election per the rules of the election, which is the Electoral College. The detail about popular vote can be contained in a non-lead section of this article as well as the article about the 2016 presidential election itself. Including it in the lead of the Trump article simply serves as an attempt to de-legitimize it. -- 2600:1700:FDF1:1FC0:1829:7658:7D23:7C29 ( talk) 02:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
In the Iran section of Foreign Policy, the 4th sentence says, "After withdrawing from the agreement, Trump administration moved forward with a policy of "maximum pressure" on Iran via economic sanctions, but without support of other parties to the deal." This sentence is missing a "the" before "Trump administration." Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 02:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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In the intro, the bit about the ACA says, "He enacted a tax-cut package for individuals and businesses, rescinding the individual health insurance mandate penalty of the Affordable Care Act, but has failed to repeal and replace the ACA as a whole." Failed is a very strong word here. I propose changing this to "... but has not repealed and replaced the ACA as a whole." This sounds less accusatory and more unbiased, in my opinion. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 13:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alleged irregularities in the 2020 United States Presidential election. — Bilorv ( talk) 20:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
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Donald Trump is not the current president of the United States of America, Joe Biden is. Jefferson cunhas ( talk) 00:54, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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I don't think the part about SNL parodies in Popular Culture is necessary. SNL parodies a lot of people. Why is Trump special out of them that makes a mention warranted? Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 22:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
a lot of people. ― Mandruss ☎ 23:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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Penultimate paragraph of Impeachment: "On February 5, Trump was acquitted of both charges in a vote nearly along party lines, with Republican Mitt Romney voting to convict on one of the charges." One of the charges? Shouldn't we be more specific and say that he voted to convict on abuse of power? The NYT article that this information is sourced to does say that specifically as well. I suppose we could also say "... but not obstruction of Congress" or something like that for clarification. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 14:26, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
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former president 0123cooookies ( talk) 05:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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Donald Trump was not reelected in the 2020 presidential election. 46.114.5.19 ( talk) 07:18, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
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Grammar change: For the 2020 presidential election section, sentence should be "The campaign's cash crunch forced a scale-back in advertising spending" instead of "The campaign's cash crunch forcing a scale-back in advertising spending." Cookies And Creme (talk) 00:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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Per https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-fires-chris-krebs-top-cybersecurity-official-in-department-of-homeland-security-11605659868#:~:text=Mr.%20Krebs'%20deputy%2C%20Matthew,familiar%20with%20the%20matter%20said.&text=Mr.%20Wales%20is%20a%20career,White%20House%20to%20remove%20him., Matthew Travis, the person who was next in line after Chris Krebs, resigned today. Should we add this after the portion about Krebs's firing? Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 04:29, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
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The page is currently set to extended confirmed, otherwise I would've just made the change. But Joe Biden has Trump listed as his predecessor, and Kamala Harris has Mike Pence as predecessor. Both this article and the Mike Pence article should have the successors to match Biden and Harris, right? Zacatero ( talk) 02:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
It is reported by several sources today that Biden plans to reverse many of Trump's signature policy actions sometime before dinner on 1/21. We should consider how this will be handled in the article and its presentation of Trump's achievements and legacy. See, e.g. Biden plans immediate flurry of executive orders to reverse Trump policies. Also Biden Could Roll Back Trump Agenda With Blitz of Executive Actions SPECIFICO talk 18:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Please start a new subsection for each proposal. If there is consensus to add a particular fact let's not quibble about the wording, but try to get rapid consensus so we can find an uninvolved administrator to make the addition.
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I propose to add In the
2020 U.S. presidential election, major news organizations have projected that Trump lost his bid for re-election.
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MelanieN (
talk) 18:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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I propose to add On November 7, 2020, after four days of vote counting, most major news outlets projected Biden as the winner of the presidential election.
[1]
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MelanieN (
talk) 18:41, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
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I propose to add Trump indicated that he does not accept this result and said "this election is far from over". He revived his claims of election fraud and said he will continue to launch legal challenges in key swing states.
[2]
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MelanieN (
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Sources
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Tataral has proposed: We should also include something about when he will be succeeded by president-elect Biden, along the lines of what what added to Obama's article in 2016 ("On January 20, 2017, Obama will be succeeded by President-elect Donald Trump").-- MelanieN ( talk) 19:00, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
An encyclopedia needs to be clear and accurate, I have not proposed any content about this minor point. I suggest we move on. ― Mandruss ☎ 12:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is projected to be succeeded by President-elect Joe Biden? El komodos drago ( talk to me) 20:58, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is not Obamaare meritless; the constant argument that the presidency is nothing in the context of Trump's life is baloney. Once you're a president, you're remembered in history for being a president. Not for running The Apprentice. ProcrastinatingReader ( talk) 14:34, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I note that the section "2020 presidential campaign" still has much of the text in the incorrect past-tense (unsure of the technical term): "have focused" rather than "focused", "has repeatedly" rather than "repeatedly", "Several sources described Trump's campaign message as shifting" perhaps "Several sources opined that the Trump campaign shifted" (or something like that; unsure of the use of weasel words), etc. Perhaps a general update is in order. While I am here, IMO that Trump has not yet conceded is of unprecedented, historical nature and should be noted, with "conceded" being an important word. e.g., WA Post, Guardian, USA Today. (Thx to everyone for all their attentiveness!) Bdushaw ( talk) 17:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Should I add a section about the current Trump attitude towards the 2020 USA Presidential elections? It's quite a unique behavior and unprecedented by any incumbent or even nominee. His twitter campaign towards the legitimacy of the elections, his flagged tweets, his claims of victory, etc. I think it's a biogrophically significant part of his presidency and is a potential paragraph that's significant regardless of the elections' outcomes. Dr.EbrahimSaadawi ( talk) 14:48, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
At this point in time it is becomming more and more clear than Donald Trump has lost this election. Joe Biden has Huge leads in all the major key states. Trump's efforts to reverse those results have failed countless times. About 90% of them have been dismissed due to lack of evdience and the fact they only affect a really small number of votes. There is no way Trump wins this election. World Leaders, Politicians, and many others have declared Joe Biden the President-elect. Hell, this wikipedia's President-elect page has Biden as the president-elect. I think it is about time to add the successor to this page. I mean the odds of Trump overriding Biden's huge leads are slim to none and Republican leaders are beginning to accept it. Phoenix X Maximus ( talk) 19:59, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
This section desperately needs a revision, because it's blatantly trying to undermine the result of the election. The media didn't project anything - they used the data that was given to them by the states, which determined based on the counted ballots that Biden won Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada and Georgia - thus winning him the election. I don't know if basic math is beyond some people with the right to edit this article, or if you have an agenda that would imply an intent to misinform readers in the article - but this is nothing if not a misrepresentation of facts. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 22:31, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Not what I was suggesting at all. It needs to be stated clearly and definitively that Trump lost the election, because he did. The states in which Biden won have a margin of difference based on the counted ballots that make it very clear that Biden won the election. To imply at all that it was "news outlets" that declared Biden the winner is again, misrepresenting the facts.
Those are the only clear options. It's a small change but it's a needed one, especially right now when there are still parties trying to undermine the result of an election that - has been decided, sans a few states that haven't finished voting but wouldn't give Trump the electoral votes needed to win. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 22:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
"Although Democratic nominee Joe Biden is now president-elect Joe Biden, there are still quite a few steps left in the US electoral process. He is projected to win, but a few more things have to take place before it becomes official. Here’s what happens now, and when it has to be done by.
When American citizens vote for a presidential candidate, they really are voting for electors in their state. Those electors in most cases are committed to support the voters’ candidate of choice. The number of electors is equal to the number of electoral votes held by each state.
8 December: this is the deadline for resolving election disputes at the state level. All state recounts and court contests over presidential election results are to be completed by this date.
14 December: electors vote by paper ballot in their respective state capitols and also in the District of Columbia, which while it is the seat of the US government, is not actually a state. Thirty-three states and DC have laws or party regulations requiring electors to vote the same way the popular vote goes in the state. In some states, electors can even be replaced or subjected to penalties if they do not toe the line. An elector who doesn’t vote according to who won the popular vote is known as a “faithless elector”. The votes for president and vice-president are counted and the electors sign six “certificates of the vote”. The certificates, along with other official papers, are sent by registered mail to various officials, including the president of the Senate.
23 December: the certificates must be delivered to the designated officials.
6 January 2021: the House and Senate hold a joint session to count the electoral votes. If one ticket has received 270 or more electoral votes, the president of the Senate, currently vice-president Mike Pence, announces the results."
Thus the line "Biden is projected to win" or "Trump is projected to lose" is currently correct, in terms of the stage the election process is in. GUtt01 ( talk) 22:51, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Oppose The media does not determine who wins or loses; the electoral college decides. Thus the current wording is more correcting than declaring he objectively won or lost. Saying he lost would be "misrepresenting" as you claim Anon0098 ( talk) 23:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Did we wait to list Trump as Obama's successor? No. He was declared the winner unanimously by virtually every editor on here, and the article reflects such. Go back to the revision history and you can see for yourself. The rules don't suddenly chance because you don't like the result this time. This is how every president-elect has been treated on this site since it's conception - we edit accordingly, with the information we have. -- 50.69.20.91 ( talk) 23:59, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump has lost reelection, as clearly stated in the relevant article. Massaging this fact may placate his followers, but doing so is not encyclopedic as it muddies the waters for the wider readership. 2A0C:5BC0:40:107B:6852:6195:FDF4:DD65 ( talk) 09:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Have any news organisation denies Donny lost? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I understand the need to remain neutral with regard to withholding the declaration that Trump lost the election until it has been verified by the official electoral college votes in December. Also, I appreciate that it is not being denied by those in charge that Biden is in fact the president-elect. However, in this case, choosing this neutrality helps spread misinformation because making this issue a debate undermines democracy. This is because it gaslights people into thinking that the election was stolen, and that Biden did not win. The truth is that Biden won the election, and this is not my opinion. It is a fact, verified by multiple media outlets, as well as world leaders who have recognized Biden as the next president, including Boris Johnson, a right-wing leader resembling Trump himself. Additionally, I see a double standard compared to 2016, when Wikipedia did not wait until the electors officially cast their votes in December to declare that Hillary Clinton lost and that Trump would succeed Obama as the next president.
Therefore, those in charge here need to understand that waiting until the electors have cast their votes to declare Biden the winner, saying that the media projects Biden will win, as opposed to saying that he won, and other forms of neutrality with regard to this issue are just as complicit in spreading misinformation and undermining democracy as overtly stating that Biden is not the next president.
Again, I understand why neutrality is important. It stops the spread of misinformation and helps weed out bias. Nevertheless, there are exceptions to every rule, and this is one of them, for in this case, being neutral helps spread misinformation and allows bias that favors Trump’s claims that the election was stolen to persist. I therefore politely implore those in charge here to reconsider their neutral stance in this instance. I’m looking at you, Mandruss. Ascarboro97 ( talk) 18:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Bullet #48 does not belong under "current consensus," and the comment commanding users not to edit the Covid paragraph is inappropriate. The bullet suggests only that there is consensus for a paragraph on Trump's handling of the pandemic, not specific wording, and it specifically notes that prior discussions did not reach consensus on wording.
Instead, the term "status quo" is used, which does not reflect any policy disallowing further changes. This is a rather ham-handed effort to imply there is consensus where there is none and order users not to make changes to material without any grounding in policy or prior discussion. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 06:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
References
No, I don't think it's odd at all that editors are allowed to make changes to text, because I was the one who saw the problems with the text weeks ago, and I still see them present in the text now. You are misrepresenting past discussions by claiming greater involvement than there was, asserting consensus where there is none, and are behaving as if WP:OWN doesn't apply and only you or editors you agree with are allowed to make textual changes. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
And by the way, you are totally entitled to your opinion, to disagree with me, and boldly revert my changes. What I am advocating here goes both ways. But do not make up consensus where there is none. The notion of "status quo" is non-binding and has no implication other than as a term of art or a suggestion for a particular variant. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
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This article is smothered in left-leaning bias. Could the writer please keep personal opinions off the page? Every paragraph oozes with hate. Disgusting. Amaideach ( talk) 00:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
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say trump is no onger president and it is fake news 131.109.147.105 ( talk) 15:17, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
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There is no mention of al-Baghdadi anywhere in the article. Yes, Trump merely approved the mission, but considering that bin Laden's death has a whole section on Obama's page, I think this should get at least a mention. Mrytzkalmyr ( talk) 02:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
That's impossible until the electors meet. 139.138.6.121 ( talk) 22:06, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
Biden is now the President-Electis patently false, until the Electoral College votes. Until then, Biden is the presumptive president-elect. They are not the same thing, and, even if unlikely, it is within the realm of realistic possibility that the presumption will be proven wrong. We can't predict what courts might do with much certainty. The argument for inclusion is that we should ignore the "presumptive" factor because most sources are doing so. As for 2016, WP:CCC. ― Mandruss ☎ 02:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
The argument for inclusion is that we should ignore the "presumptive" factor because most sources are doing so.And that's a good reason for ignoring it. We follow Reliable Sources, remember? Our article does say some version of "news media called the election" rather than "he was elected", but otherwise we are treating him as the president-elect. As we have done with every previous president. Let it go, Mandruss. You may be technically correct, but WP:Verifiability, not truth, remember? -- MelanieN ( talk) 02:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
It would seem out of step with the way the encyclopedia works to have us make a different call than a consensus of reliable sources. This seems especially true given the nature of the term President Elect, which is informal and there is even federal law that allows for the government to designate the president elect before the Electoral College vote. From our article: "The president-elect is the common or honorific title accorded to the person who conclusively appears to have won a presidential election in the United States [...]" In short, due the nature of the title President-elect, regular WP:RS rules apply" -- Tataral ( talk) 04:40, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Why are we arguing about this specific section when the Wikipedia Page for Mike Pence has the section about "Vice President-Elect" Kamala Harris. If that can be put onto the page of Vice President Pence, why can't that be done for President Trump's page? User_talk:MyJunoBaldwin 17:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
References
All sources including Fox News have named Biden president-elect. I agree, he should be in the successor category to POTUS. AjayTO ( talk) 06:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Seems this argument was had 4 years ago. If we want to be 100% accurate? then yes, only the electors themselves got elected on November 3. So far 279 Biden pledged electors & 217 Trump pledged electors, with 42 left to be decided. Do we wanna wait until December 14 for the Electoral College to do the actual voting for president & vice president? then Congress certifying it all on January 6? GoodDay ( talk) 14:41, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
I think at this point in time it is going to hard to deny reality. Joe Biden is the president-elect. Yes Trump has decided to challenge the results in courts but a huge majority of them have been thrown out/dismissed due to lack of evidence. There are zero signs that Trump is going to win re-election. None. Everybody at this point in time has accepted it. Even Wikipedia has. The President-elect page for instance has Joe Biden as president-elect, There is a page dedicated to Biden's inauguration,etc... . World Leaders, Politicians, and many others have already come to accept Biden as the 46th president. I don't see why we should wait for the next year when the result is painfully obvious. Phoenix X Maximus ( talk) 20:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
I agree we should include the elect because Biden is going to be the next president. Whether we like it or not. Pentock ( talk) 03:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
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This line: "On election night, November 5, with the result unclear, Trump declared victory.[843] On November 7, most major news outlets projected Biden as the winner.[844] In response, Trump said, "this election is far from over". He alleged election fraud without providing evidence and said he would continue to launch legal challenges in key states." contains incorrect information. Election night was November 3rd, 2020. Request that the date be updated to accurately reflect the correct timeframe. 68.202.210.41 ( talk) 13:18, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
This was my fault. I screwed up, sorry. starship .paint ( talk) 11:02, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
Suggested:On Election Day, November 3, the results were unclear, but nevertheless, early on November 4, Trump declared victory
― Mandruss ☎ 23:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. The following morning, with the election results unclear due to slower ballot counting in several states, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
― Mandruss ☎ 00:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. At 2:00 the following morning, with the election results unclear due to slower ballot counting in several states, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
― Mandruss ☎ 01:42, 14 November 2020 (UTC)The election was held on November 3. At 2:00 the following morning, with the election results unclear, Trump declared victory, saying "Frankly, we did win."
Saying that it was the "following morning" seems misleading to me. I addressed that concern by adding the time-of-day, which removed the ambiguity. Now you're saying the time-of-day is unnecessary. As for your quest for an undefined and unexplained "elegance", we are not writing literature here. All we need is to follow the usual goals of good non-fiction writing, such as correct grammar, clarity, flow, avoidance of repetitiveness and redundancy, and so forth, and I don't think the status quo language does that very well at all. That "but nevertheless" seems particularly grating to my ear. I'm at a loss to understand what would satisfy you at this point, so I'm going ahead with a BOLD edit. ― Mandruss ☎ 03:51, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Trump is the first US president to (1) lose the popular vote (twice), (2) be impeached AND (3) fail to win reelection. Please add this noteworthy accomplishment to the lede. 2A0C:5BC0:40:107B:6852:6195:FDF4:DD65 ( talk) 09:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)