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Death of Nex Benedict article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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On 28 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Death of Nex Benedict to Suicide of Nex Benedict. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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Before full page protection was implemented, there were several changes made to the lead that seem problematic according to various policies and guidelines. As a general matter, according to
MOS:LEAD, this is
not a news-style
lead or "lede" paragraph.
In some of the additions and removals that happened before full page protection was implemented, there were what appear to be news-style detail added by PLG, e.g. [1] "pouring water" and "mutual combat." Should we continue to add detail to balance this detail, e.g. what the police officer said about pouring water not giving a right to use physical violence in response? That would seem contrary to MOS:LEAD in a lead that is already getting long. In addition, and I think more critically, reliable sources do not seem to support the implication that now seems to be made in the lead that it was the water that supports the mutual combat determination. The POV implied by this lead therefore seems unsupported and contrary to BDP policy.
There is also an aspect of the lead that currently has a "failed verification" tag. The issue of whether and how to include detail related to notes described but apparently not released by the Oklahoma medical examiner was the subject of edit-warring, where I did attempt, including on BDP grounds, to remove content that appears unsourced about Benedict, but it was added back into the article by PLG, contrary to WP:BLPUNDEL e.g. [2]; in an attempt to avoid further edit war, I added the tag, and then the page got locked with this apparently unsourced content about a recently-deceased person still in the lead; my hope is this apparent unsourced overstatement about Benedict can be addressed after the article unlocks, or by an uninvolved admin before then.
It may be best to simplify this now quite-long lead into a more streamlined overview. There appears to be an ongoing potential for disruption in this 3-CTOPs article; less detail may be far more beneficial for providing an overview of this contentious article.
And as a general note, as mentioned in an earlier section, I am winding down my activity on Wikipedia for an extended wikibreak/retirement, and sharing my general thoughts here about these recent issues is part of that process. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 19:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
It seems like most sources are now using he/him pronouns in relation to Nex. As such, it seems like it would be appropriate to update this article to reflect that. Peter L Griffin ( talk) 20:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
She told The Independent that Nex was always understanding if she used an incorrect pronoun, or called Nex by their birth name. “Nex did not see themselves as male or female,” Ms Benedict said. “Nex saw themselves right down the middle. I was still learning about it, Nex was teaching me that.”
changed the quote in the lead to “instance of mutual combat”. most sources use quote to attribute it to spoken by the DA.
think it makes sense to keep it like that, instead of suggesting a jury has rules absolutely that it was mutual combat. User:Sawerchessread ( talk) 01:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
hey PLG, i saw your removal of a lot of the reaction info.
I think we can include a lot of it still.. As a general rule of thumb, if there is a news site covering much of it, it should be considered notable.
I think we can subsection the reactions though and give it a bit more structure. I'll try my hand at it. User:Sawerchessread ( talk) 23:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
User:Russ Woodroofe, thank you--yes, User:Sawerchessread, edits are usually not administrative actions. I'd appreciate it if you kept this talk page section a bit on focus; it reads like a running diary, and I can't really see what it is supposed to discuss--that's also because you keep making new, short paragraphs that are heavily indented, which are difficult to follow. A list of vigils is not encyclopedic content; "it's verified cause it was in the paper" is not much of an argument. It's like the "reactions" to the next school shooting: it's NOTMEMORIAL material.
And now I see you're pointing at other articles, but Charleston_church_shooting#Aftermath is totally on point and focused on events directly relevant to the shooting, unlike the vague "there were vigils". For Charleston there were vigils too, but they're not in the article. And I don't like Reactions to the murder of George Floyd, esp. not with the responses with the flaggies--but that Scotland decided to not export tear gas, rubber bullets, and riot gear to the US, that's actually important. Drmies ( talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Because this article is about the death of Nex Benedict, it seems to be vitally important to include known information about Nex's actual death in the lead sentence. At the moment, reliable sources say that Nex's death was a suicide caused by a drug overdose. This has been established for a month now, and no credible alternative has been produced.
I argue this should be stated in Wikivoice. But even if we disagree about whether such a claim should be attributed, it should still be included in the lead sentence qualified or not. Peter L Griffin ( talk) 00:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The lead currently says that Nex was "required by state law" to use the girls' bathroom. This is not strictly correct. The state law in question requires schools to offer an alternative in the form of a single-occupancy bathroom.
[The bill] requires each school to provide a reasonable accommodation - a single-occupancy restroom or changing area - to anyone who does not wish to comply with the requirement.
Transgender students who decline to use the restroom required under the measure would have to use “a single-occupancy restroom or changing room” provided by the school.
Trans students who do not comply will be required to use a “single-occupancy restroom or changing room” at their school.
The article body is similarly inaccurate when it says that "Students are legally required to use a bathroom that corresponds with sex assigned at birth". It would be more accurate to say "Students are legally prohibited from using a bathroom that does not correspond..."
Astaire ( talk) 21:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Death of Nex Benedict article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to post-1992 politics of the United States and closely related people, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
On 28 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Death of Nex Benedict to Suicide of Nex Benedict. The result of the discussion was No consensus. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Before full page protection was implemented, there were several changes made to the lead that seem problematic according to various policies and guidelines. As a general matter, according to
MOS:LEAD, this is
not a news-style
lead or "lede" paragraph.
In some of the additions and removals that happened before full page protection was implemented, there were what appear to be news-style detail added by PLG, e.g. [1] "pouring water" and "mutual combat." Should we continue to add detail to balance this detail, e.g. what the police officer said about pouring water not giving a right to use physical violence in response? That would seem contrary to MOS:LEAD in a lead that is already getting long. In addition, and I think more critically, reliable sources do not seem to support the implication that now seems to be made in the lead that it was the water that supports the mutual combat determination. The POV implied by this lead therefore seems unsupported and contrary to BDP policy.
There is also an aspect of the lead that currently has a "failed verification" tag. The issue of whether and how to include detail related to notes described but apparently not released by the Oklahoma medical examiner was the subject of edit-warring, where I did attempt, including on BDP grounds, to remove content that appears unsourced about Benedict, but it was added back into the article by PLG, contrary to WP:BLPUNDEL e.g. [2]; in an attempt to avoid further edit war, I added the tag, and then the page got locked with this apparently unsourced content about a recently-deceased person still in the lead; my hope is this apparent unsourced overstatement about Benedict can be addressed after the article unlocks, or by an uninvolved admin before then.
It may be best to simplify this now quite-long lead into a more streamlined overview. There appears to be an ongoing potential for disruption in this 3-CTOPs article; less detail may be far more beneficial for providing an overview of this contentious article.
And as a general note, as mentioned in an earlier section, I am winding down my activity on Wikipedia for an extended wikibreak/retirement, and sharing my general thoughts here about these recent issues is part of that process. Thank you, Beccaynr ( talk) 19:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
It seems like most sources are now using he/him pronouns in relation to Nex. As such, it seems like it would be appropriate to update this article to reflect that. Peter L Griffin ( talk) 20:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
She told The Independent that Nex was always understanding if she used an incorrect pronoun, or called Nex by their birth name. “Nex did not see themselves as male or female,” Ms Benedict said. “Nex saw themselves right down the middle. I was still learning about it, Nex was teaching me that.”
changed the quote in the lead to “instance of mutual combat”. most sources use quote to attribute it to spoken by the DA.
think it makes sense to keep it like that, instead of suggesting a jury has rules absolutely that it was mutual combat. User:Sawerchessread ( talk) 01:39, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
hey PLG, i saw your removal of a lot of the reaction info.
I think we can include a lot of it still.. As a general rule of thumb, if there is a news site covering much of it, it should be considered notable.
I think we can subsection the reactions though and give it a bit more structure. I'll try my hand at it. User:Sawerchessread ( talk) 23:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
User:Russ Woodroofe, thank you--yes, User:Sawerchessread, edits are usually not administrative actions. I'd appreciate it if you kept this talk page section a bit on focus; it reads like a running diary, and I can't really see what it is supposed to discuss--that's also because you keep making new, short paragraphs that are heavily indented, which are difficult to follow. A list of vigils is not encyclopedic content; "it's verified cause it was in the paper" is not much of an argument. It's like the "reactions" to the next school shooting: it's NOTMEMORIAL material.
And now I see you're pointing at other articles, but Charleston_church_shooting#Aftermath is totally on point and focused on events directly relevant to the shooting, unlike the vague "there were vigils". For Charleston there were vigils too, but they're not in the article. And I don't like Reactions to the murder of George Floyd, esp. not with the responses with the flaggies--but that Scotland decided to not export tear gas, rubber bullets, and riot gear to the US, that's actually important. Drmies ( talk) 13:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Because this article is about the death of Nex Benedict, it seems to be vitally important to include known information about Nex's actual death in the lead sentence. At the moment, reliable sources say that Nex's death was a suicide caused by a drug overdose. This has been established for a month now, and no credible alternative has been produced.
I argue this should be stated in Wikivoice. But even if we disagree about whether such a claim should be attributed, it should still be included in the lead sentence qualified or not. Peter L Griffin ( talk) 00:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
The lead currently says that Nex was "required by state law" to use the girls' bathroom. This is not strictly correct. The state law in question requires schools to offer an alternative in the form of a single-occupancy bathroom.
[The bill] requires each school to provide a reasonable accommodation - a single-occupancy restroom or changing area - to anyone who does not wish to comply with the requirement.
Transgender students who decline to use the restroom required under the measure would have to use “a single-occupancy restroom or changing room” provided by the school.
Trans students who do not comply will be required to use a “single-occupancy restroom or changing room” at their school.
The article body is similarly inaccurate when it says that "Students are legally required to use a bathroom that corresponds with sex assigned at birth". It would be more accurate to say "Students are legally prohibited from using a bathroom that does not correspond..."
Astaire ( talk) 21:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)