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There was nothing "Marxist" even remotely about the Revolutionary Government of Mexico that came to power on the heals of hte 1910-1918 Revolution. The closest it ever came to "Marxism" was under the Cardenas presidency ('34- '40) and at no point did *any* of Presidents, nor what became, can be described as "Marxist". it's actually quite a slander. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.81.228.221 ( talk) 18:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
You are in many ways correct, but many members of the government were inspired by Marx. Garrido particularly considered himself a Marxist. I am not sure about Calles, he have have had some Marxist influence. The government could be described as left-leaning but certainly not a Marxist government, as you say.
And it is not too much of a slander. In the Western world, secularism is a virtue. The laws prohibiting the church from owning too much land, trying to sway people to politics (religion and politics should not mix), stopping priests advertising their religions outside of church and having religious schools are things that are pretty much accepted as correct in most secular countries. If such laws were passed in the US and the UK (and some have been) people would not care but due to the church's dominance in Mexico, a rebellion occurred. There is no slander in talking about fact, though I do think this article (as usual for wikipedia) as a Christian (specifically Catholic) bias. I'd prefer the article to be truly neutral rather than trying to sway people in either direction (supporting the government or supporting the Cristeros). The Mummy ( talk) 13:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to have very few citations. There are a number of respected sources by academic historians, especially Jean Meyer's monumental three-volume work "La Cristiada," which should form the basis of the article.
Regarding who was at fault, a point that is brought up: that is not an issue to be raised in Wikipedia. The issue is getting the relevant facts into the piece and getting it right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.216.214.118 ( talk) 16:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
If the PRI was not Marxist? Why did Trotsky flee to Mexico is it because it was a nice climate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.84.76.115 ( talk) 14:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
This needs to use the Template:Battlebox, like seen on Polish-Soviet War for example. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed "human rights" to "civil rights" since that is a more accurate description of the rights involved: voting, freedom of expression, the right to wear clerical garb. 24.126.41.116 07:31, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC) aka User:Italo Svevo
Should there not be a bit more background on the 1917 Constitution? The articles there did not spring ex nihilo: they were rooted in a long-standing conflict between Independent Mexico and the RCC. The RCC first demanded that Independent Mexico take over the obligations of the Spanish Crown (vis a vis the Concordato signed between the Church and the Crown), but refused to grant them the corresponding priviledges (most notably, the naming of bishops and archbishops). When the 1856 Constitution did not include civil penalties and prosecution for failure to obey canon law (e.g., failure to pay a tithe and so on), the Church denounced it and issued an Excommunication Writ on anyone who swore to uphold it (as all civil officials were required to do). They then offered a ceremony for "removal of the oath" for anyone who wanted it. They would later reaffirm the excommunication writ though they only selectively enforced it during the Porfirio Diaz years. After Maximilian supported some of the Reform laws issued by Juarez and Lerdo de Tejada, the RCC demanded that he declare catholicism not only the official religion of Mexico, but "the one and only possible religion for all mexicans"; Maximilian refused, though he offered to make it the official religion of the Royal House (not enough for the RCC). The conflict hardly began in 1917; as for some of the civil rights, the right to vote was (and remains) denied on the grounds that the RCC clergy must swear an oath of fealty to a foreign head of state, an act that usually carries a revokation of citizenship not only in Mexico, but in most countries. Magidin Talk 10:14, 24 Aug 2005 (MDT)
Please note that as in any war or conflict in Mexico, complex underpinnings are at work. So to say that the Cristiada and the Cristero movement was completely caused by a dispute between the Mexican government and the Roman Catholic Church is miss the complete scope of the problem. Much has been said of President Plutarco Elías Calles and much of the evidence signals him as a pseudo fascist dictator. Much of his hate for Catholicism, could be rooted to a longing for a system similar to Francisco Franco's anticlerical Spain. The Vatican's later subjugation by Mussolini gives further evidence. With that said, much of the Cristero movement was more a liberal reaction (freedom of belief) than a conservative movement, although its roots appear to come from the 19th century Conservative party. Let's remember that after Porfirio Díaz (which merged both parties into one), Mexican ruling people have always tried to align opposition movements with the ill-fated Conservative wing. Even Cuauhtemoc Cárdenas was once pictured as a Conservative, opposed to the (neo)liberal Carlos Salinas de Gortari, which--of course--is a complete lie.-- 201.116.149.85 ( talk) 22:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Franco was not anti-cleric, the left-leaning Spanish Republic which he overthrow was. Mussolini was not particularly anti-clerical when it came to politics either, even if he was an atheist. You need to read up more on the history of these regimes. Also you should remember Salazar, leader of Portugal, who was an extreme Catholic and inspired by Fascism.
Anti-clericalism is not a core tenant of Fascism, it is, however, a core tenant of most Radical Left groups such as Marxism (particularly that of Marxism-Leninism...hence Envar Hoxha). Maybe some Cristeros were liberal, but most of their leaders were conservatives trying to preserve the status quo (incidentally one of the aims of Fascism is to do the same, but they are really more a backstep from conservatism). The Mummy ( talk) 13:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Concentration camp; The Cristero War; Near La Piedad Michoacan there was a stockyard, La Ribera, it's across the river from Yurécuaro, Michoacán It became a concentration camp. It was packed full of people Little food no salt there was a rule you better not point up and say christ is king off came your hands. My mother Francisca born 1921 she must have been 7y/o they cut her index finger off. She must have said something the guards didn't like. the on line says the Elite in Mexico City were Jewish. I'm not not found of catholic or jew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:C980:34F8:C44A:D818:4048:C0C5 ( talk) 22:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Fixed some word choices for readability and NPOV.
Also, shouldn't this article make some reference to the Sinarquista movement? I'll leave it to someone with a better grasp of the topic.
Some academicians advance the idea that the "Cristero War" was provoked by the Catholics. It is, of course, undeniable that the Constitution of 1917 took giant steps to guarantee a separation of the church and state (and perhaps, punished the Catholic church too harshly). However, some scholars argue that the church earned these punishments by attacking the writers of the constitution during time that supposedly was for worship.
A brief background of the Church's history in Mexico (including their involvement in the latifundios, speculation with land, amalgamation of wealth, support of a classist system, cooperation with Maximilian of Hapsburg and the war of Reform) should also help the readers put in perspective why the writers of the 1917 constitution felt to be so harsh on the church.
In my opinion, this article leads the reader to believe that the government repressed the church with no reason and that patriots fought for certain religious rights. Nothing is farther from the truth. First of all, the church was not unique in the repression they suffered. If anything, the government was permissive with the church compared to what it did to other groups. Second, the constitution was written the way it was for a reason, and that reason is not shown. Lastly, both sides in the blood shed where fanatics. The article, instead of emphasizing the irrationality behind the conflict, concludes with how certain warriors of the Catholic side were beatified and made saints!
This article is in favor of the catholic view, and should be revised for a neutral point of view.
Hari Seldon 08:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Regarding recent reverts between
Hari Seldon and
Mamalujo, it might be noted that it was the 1917 Constitution that granted Freedom of Religion in Mexico, while the Cristeros were against such a provision: they wanted an official Catholic government; much as in the 1857 Constitution, they objected to the Freedom of Conscience clauses in the Constitution, and to the Government not enforcing canon law (the latter being the source of the break between the Vatican and the Mexican government in the 19th century). While it is true that the Government went far beyond simply enforcing those provisions, both sides were active in denying freedom of conscience to others.
Magidin 19:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
While Juarez was certainly justified in the measures included in the original constitution to combat the enormous influence of the clergy, he did not foresee either the rise of socialism as a potent political force nor, apparently, the ends to which state control of education might be applied. Calles certainly took advantage of that, and certain elements of Mexican society showed themselves willing to go even further. Both the political class and the clergy understood at high levels that socialism and the church could not coexist in the long run, hence strife was certainly a predictable result. 68.189.219.96 ( talk) 16:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Why is this article featured? It's not that good. It could be a lot larger, it doesn't present a single historian's view, it's not really NPOV and it simply reads bad. I suggest this article should lose its featured status, how does that work? Mixcoatl 02:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro simply describe the government as anti-clerical? "Anti-Catholic" seems to be a rather POV position. AshbyJnr 15:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a matter of historical fact that the "anti-clerical" laws of the 1917 Constitution were directed against the Catholic Church. The liberal governments actively favored protestant groups and attempted to use the 1917 "anti-clerical" articles to destroy Catholicism. The liberals, most of whom were anti-Catholic Freemasons, wished to subdue and even destroy the Church. So referring to their policies as "anti-Catholic" does not violate NPOV. "Anti-clerical" is a term used by the liberals to imply that somehow their measures were only directed at the clergy, when in fact they were directed at Catholic education and religious activity by laymen as well. 189.169.221.22 ( talk) 20:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Anti-clerical? Yes. Anti-Catholic? Yes too. Even if the average Mexican catholic did not suffer proportionally as much as the clergy they still were persecuted. The Government stealing huge swaths of church property including closing all of the schools and stealing the buildings and the same with monastery's and hospitals and of courses the churches themselves. This theft hurt all Mexican catholics. Peppermintschnapps ( talk) 00:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid you are only enlisting half of the martyrs of the Cristero War. You must also include those teachers who were tortured or murdered by the Cristeros accused of teaching a socialist education. They were known as maestros desorejados because the Cristeros used to cut-off their ears. Here is a small list of those teachers:
This article is highly biased. Instead of explaining the facts and the history behind the cristero war, this article seems to had been written with a pro-Catholic sentiment and often expresses opinions rather than facts. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 21:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to jump in, forgive the bold, I just want it easy to read. So it stands apart a bit from the rest of the discussion. I agree that bias and point-of-view nonsense has to be kept out...but let me tell you about Los Cristeros and their legacy.
If my grandmother had not been so incredibly brave and clever, I wouldn't be here. She and my mother were home alone when the Cristeros came to town. Those people pillaged, raped and burned the Church. "They were highwaymen, robbers, brigands and murderers," according to my mother who was about 19 when the attack happened.
This, since it is my family's recollection and they were there, cannot be introduced by me into the article, but I hope it gives you all a perspective of these people and what their caliber really was. They were no heroes. My grandmother was a God-fearing 3rd Order Carmelite and my whole family was deeply Catholic. No one at the time knew we were really Jews--Conversos. And my mother barely escaped with her life. 76.195.85.164 ( talk) 08:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)'
I too would like to add some perspective from my uncle that witnessed the Cristero War. My uncle, Luis Maldonado (my grandfather's older brother), told me his older brother was killed by the Cristero rebellion when they entered the village of Aguililla, in the state of Michoacan. He told me the following. The rebels came into town and some sympathizers would tell them which homes had men of fighting age, weapons, and food. The rebels would forcefully help themselves to whatever they needed. When the Cristeros started for my uncles home, he grabbed the family pistol and ran to escape capture. In those days, if the rebels found a pistol in a home, they would have destroyed everything in the home for fear that the home may belong to a potential enemy. As he headed for the hills, the men shot at hit but missed. As my uncle got over the hill, another group of Cristeros were waiting for him and they shot him dead. They took his pistol and left him there. My uncle Luis was around 8 years old when he saw his brother murdered. While he remained a devout Catholic until his death in 2007, he told me he always feared the church's bandits more than the Mexican government. Chubbylopez ( talk) 06:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubbylopez ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Freemasonry as a fringe theory or not aside, what evidence is there that the presidents followings the Constitution of 1917 were Freemasons and that they were actively pursuing anti-clergy/anti-Catholic policies as part of their Freemason backgrounds? Can we get some citations in here? Some kind of connection with Freemasonry other than one sentence in the introduction? Umma Kynes 02:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ummakynes ( talk • contribs)
I think this article should be extended to cover the second Cristero War ("La Segunda") which lasted from 1934 to 1941. Alternatively, a separate article (similar to the one in the Spanish Wikipedia) could be written. The part about "Martyrs of Education" could then be merged with the new section/article.
I must object to the post above. Probably no one's reading this, but even though Chubby who is oviously not around now isn't anti-Catholic--he's repeating what his relative told him--I don't think there is room on the article for unsubstantiated anti-religion rhetoric there. I do not know what "the church's bandits" is supposed to mean, but the Mexican people never had to fear the Catholic Church sending an army of bandits in this time period.
I know the family feelings of anti-Catholicism because my people are Sefardita Jews, even though it is plain we became Catholic. Even as Catholics, my family had anti-Catholic inclinations, but that did not lead to violence, and my family never spoke nonsense about "bandits" affiliated with the Church. 75.21.115.123 ( talk) 17:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Are you really that stupid and ignorant. The Legion of Christ was founded 1941. It has nothing to do with the Cristeros of the 1920s. Why are Anti-Catholic bigots so ignorant in their bigotry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.139.105 ( talk) 02:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The editor(s) who created this section did a very good job. Notwithstanding that, the section doesn't fall within the subject matter of this article. The Cristero war ended in 1929 and this section points out that the killings were between 1935 and 1939. Another source says 1931-1940. Moreover, some of the sources distinguish the Cristeros from the perpetrators of these atrocities, who are referred to as bragados. I'd suggest we create a new article with a link from here in the See Also section and also include that article within the Cristero War category. Thoughts? Mamalujo ( talk) 21:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
What this article really needs is a detailed historical analysis about what happened between the signature of the agreements in June 1929 and the end of Lazaro Cardenas' presidency in November 1940, because there are many important facts that need to be explained in a general context, for example:
It is my personal point of view that neither Pope Pius XI, nor Pope John Paul II, nor a lot of authors consider(ed) that the bilateral hostilities ended in 1929, and we cannot do so either.
Best whishes:-- 189.217.47.71 ( talk) 05:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Considering that both the Cristero saints and the Martyrs of the education elements include substantial reference to immediate post-war events, it would be grossly biased to remove only one. IAC-62 ( talk) 22:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, yes. After the War, Catholic peasants who wanted control of their children's lives killed government-sent anti-Catholic ("Socialist") teachers in some parts of Mexico. And the government itself continued to murder priests and nuns. For example, Fr. Pro. Sad that that the oppression of the Catholic peasants continued and sad that they resisted, right? But this is not part of the Cristero War, so move it to another page. Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.139.105 ( talk) 03:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I want to point out that the following text was erased even when it is supported by five references included in published books. Is that an acceptable attitude for editing an encyclopedia?, I do not think so.
{{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)Ignacio C. Enríques (1915).
The religious question in Mexico, number 7. I.C. Enriquez. p. 10.Robert P. Millon (1995).
Zapata: The Ideology of a Peasant Revolutionary. International Publishers Co. p. 23.
ISBN
071780710X, 9780717807109. {{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)Carlo de Fornaro, John Farley (1916).
What the Catholic Church Has Done to Mexico. Latin-American News Association. p. 13–14.Peter Gran (1996).
Beyond Eurocentrism: a new view of modern world history. Syracuse University Press. p. 165.
ISBN
0815626924, 9780815626923. {{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)The anticlerical provisions in the Mexican Constitution of 1917 were not included just by chance. It is an article about the confrontation between the Catholic Church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, so it important to say that these anticlerical provisions were included as a consequence of the confrontation between the Catholic church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, even if we do not like the facts. Indeed Carranza Oregon and Calles fought against Victoriano Huerta dictatorhip. 189.217.17.16 ( talk) 06:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is definitely biased. Apparently there were anti-religious excesses in some places, but 90% of the things described here as "disregarding/offending/persecuting Catholics" are just standard progressive and democratic features, and they are still in the Mexican Constitution. Sources such as "Blood-drenched altars" by some Father are inappropriate, and given the equally ridiculous pro-Catholic bias of most of the other sources, I'm sure they could be balanced out by sources with a less obscurantist perspective.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 02:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
::: I wonder if
Vermeervermillion is concerned about the treatment accorded to non-Catholic Christians who are harrassed in parts of Mexico by local officials and subjected to "extralegal" persecution. See
here.
Quis separabit? 19:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Looking over the article one more time, the one section which is obviously POV is the "Atrocities by the Cristeros against rural teachers" one. And that's not a pro-hardline-Catholic bias, it's the other one. First, as pointed out above, the scope of these events falls into the so-called "Second Cristero War" or just generally is usually treated separately from the events of the mid 20's. Second, as some of the sources indicate, the atrocities were committed by a minority of former Cristeros. Most former Cristeros adopted peaceful means of resistance. So this should be both rewritten and split off. Volunteer Marek 03:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to point out that several years after this article was created, entire important sections of text, have no sources or reflinks, including, but not limited to, "Diplomacy and the uprising", "Cristero War", "Escalation of violence", and "Background to rebellion".
I also would add, for Mamalujo, that the term "reportedly" is not weaselry if there is no source for an assertion or claim, or if the source is plainly biased (i.e. the EWTN, which is a militant Catholic apologetics website). And "atheist" is most certainly not used as an epithet, not in any real encyclopedia. My father was a proud atheist as am I. This is an encyclopedia, not an ecclesial website or a site for propaganda (on either side) to go unchecked. Quis separabit? 17:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
There seems a curious reluctance to address the underlying real issue behind the war. The clear fact is that the government was socialist, and wished to indoctrinate the public through education; that education would, among other things, jeopardize the church in the long run. Calle himself said as much. It was not only that the government was hostile to the church as a near term threat, church teachings were and are anti-socialist; the every nature of socialism denies the significance of the individual, in direct contradiction of the teachings of Christ; this was the reason for the suppression of Church education. That socialism and religion can never be reconciled was understood by the hierarchy in both the government and the church; indeed it is and was then understood by socialists throughout the world. In as deeply religious a nation as Mexico, war was inevitable. What is fairly surprising is that the government was forced to reach any kind of accommodation with the church at all; the position of the government at the time must have been quite weak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.38.79 ( talk) 13:51, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Text attributed to three highly reputable and unbiased reliable sources was deleted with this summary: "I am not convinced that wording is neutral or in line with the best sources" The language is that of the reliable and unbiased sources. And they are in fact top sources. First cited is Anthony James Joes, who is a professor at St. Joseph University and is Chair of its Faculty Research Board, was formerly chair of its political science department and former Director of its International Relations Program. His doctorate is from an Ivy institution, University of Pennsylvania. His book is published by a major university press. The second source is Emily Edmonds-Poli who is a specialist on politics in Mexico. She is the director of the MA program in International Relations at University of San Diego. Her coauthor is also a specialist on Mexican Politics, a professor of political science at the University of San Diego and Director of its Trans-Border Institutute. Their publisher is known for producing books and journals for the academic market. The third, Vikram K. Chand received a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. He is currently Senior Public Sector Management Specialist, The World Bank, New Delhi. His book is also from a major university press. I’ve added in the footnotes his text. I’ve also added as additional sourcing The Cambridge History of Latin America and from Triumphs and Tragedy: A History of the Mexican People by Ramon Eduardo Ruiz, who according to the L.A. Times was “ a renowned historian of Mexico and Latin America whose books included in-depth studies of the Mexican and Cuban revolutions”. He was an emeritus professor of history at UC San Diego and also had a distinguished career at Mexican institutions of higher education. His publisher is also known for academic works and textbooks. Mamalujo ( talk) 00:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
"hanged" for "hung." Here is why:
"Hanged, as a past tense and a past participle of hang, is used in the sense of “to put to death by hanging,” as in Frontier courts hanged many a prisoner after a summary trial. A majority of the Usage Panel objects to hung used in this sense. In all other senses of the word, hung is the preferred form as past tense and past participle, as in I hung my child's picture above my desk.
(The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000) Einar aka
Carptrash (
talk) 20:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
There are several other depictions in popular culture. "The Fugitive" (1947 film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fugitive_%281947_film%29 staring Henry Fonda depicts an unnamed priest in the 1930s during the religious persecutions following the war. It is based on a 1940 book by Graham Greene "The Power and the Glory" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory. Several other adaptions of the book were made for TV and stage. These are cited in the book article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletknight72 ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The group is mentioned in the lead but their role is not explained in the body of the article. What did they do exactly? Rmhermen ( talk) 15:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
You need to research. They fought against KKK who sent private telegrams to President Calles and offered $10,000.00 Ten Thousand dollars to fight the Catholic church and pay for government soldiers to maintain the Catholic ban on religious practice when they secretly found out that the Knights of Columbus offered one thousand dollars to the Cristero rebels. Google is your friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeartyBowl1989 ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
It seems the article goes off track in this section. Perhaps this information about teachers should be split off into its own article since it is no longer about the Cristero War, but a different somewhat related subject. Taram ( talk) 06:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cristero War/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This article is clearly written with sympathy to the Catholic Church-it is not objective enough for me. 189.162.129.148 ( talk) 05:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 05:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 12:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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There's a sentence at the end of the "Church and State Conflict" which reads: "To destroy the Church's influence over the Mexican people, anti-clerical laws were instituted, beginning a ten-year religious conflict that resulted in the death of thousands of civilians who took up arms to fight for their religious freedom". I'll remove the last part of the sentence, "who took up arms to fight for their religous freedom".
The reason is that the sentence establishes a subjective undertone to the otherwise impartial information that was given previously. Even if the personal motivation of one given individual was “religious freedom”, as a whole, the Cristero affair can be seen more as a conflict between the old and new Mexican elites: the church and the revolutionary state. Presenting them as martyrs that died for civil rights undermines the fact that the Catholic Church had been a huge political and social influence in México for centuries. The church, as an institution, was fighting to keep their influence and power in law making. This can be read in almost all of the books and articles written and published by the most respected Mexican historians. Erick Rozo ( talk) 16:47, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
-Response- I can't speak to "the most respected Mexican historians". This statement, "The church, as an institution, was fighting to keep their influence and power in law making", sure sounds reductionist likely marxist, i.e. religious events are reducible to political and economic motivations. Jean Meyer in his 3 volume work also attacks just that view. Meyer gives two reasons for the beginning of the war. The governing elites were imbued with American-Protestant-Liberal views. [who saw Catholicism as the worst enemy. e.g. the congressional funds appropriated to send a good Protestant mission to the newly American Catholics in Alaska (Orthodox were no different from Catholic in the eyes of the congressmen), Blaine amendments, and attempts to drastically restrict or eliminate immigration from Catholic countries in Europe]. The second reason was the government's belief that the Catholic Church was a rival to the power of the state. There were similar conflicts between elites imbued in American Protestant thought and the people. E.g. Rafael Carrera in Guatemala.
Meyer concludes the Cales government acted very similarly to other totalitarian states in the first half of the 20th century in its attempt to eliminate the Catholic Church. Below I give a passage from Meyer's 1976 English translation in which he makes this connection. You can argue with his conclusions; however, he was the first to go out study this war. He went into the field and took interviews. He went into the archives. I trust a historian who tries to let the sources speak for themselves than "almost all of the books and articles written and published by the most respected Mexican historians." The work of a scholar who does the most and best research is more reliable than a consensus of reductionist historians.
Page 208 of Meyer, Jean A. The Cristero Rebellion: The Mexican People between Church and State, 1926-1929. Cambridge Latin American Studies.No. 24. Cambridge ; New York: Cambridge University Press, 1976.
“The course of that decade, and only for limited time, the Mexican state became God and hid behind its own myth, that of the revolution, the myth which disguised the existence of the new ruling class.” “Knowing nothing of the legitimacy of tradition or formal legality, this power fell back on its own absolutism, and gave itself an official ideology, a single mass political party, a monopoly on information and propaganda, and finally declared war on society in order to assure its own dominance over the scene of dislocation.” “The police and the Army were thrown against various social groups, the peasants, the city dwellers, the middle classes, in order to break down the social structures in the basic rural social nucleus.” “The ‘colonial’ war waged against the Cristeros was similar, with its enforced resettlement of the population, to the totalitarian system concentration camps. The attempt to destroy the church and, in the shorter term, the family (especially in Tabasco and after the experiment with ‘social education’), was accompanied by the systematic partitioning of the population by the Party and its satellite organizations” (208).
I will wait two weeks for any comments. If no one objects I will make the change back. April 4, 2018
Safinski ( talk) 19:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
It is inaccurate to include the Holy See as a belligerent in this war, being that they did not directly support the taking up of arms by Cristeros, they did not canonize anyone who did so, etc. Elizium23 ( talk) 18:56, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes they did it even says it later in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hacheyexcellent ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:2566:EE89:3238:D86B ( talk) I had just seen images on the internet everywhere of them being featured and I thought one of those people who just go around trashing things omitted it to be jerks. Had no concrete source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hacheyexcellent ( talk • contribs) 02:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
I was wondering whether the photos of the hangings are necessary? Especially if there are no prior warnings regarding them appearing in the article. Perhaps a description of what occurred in writing would suffice? 86.183.32.105 ( talk) 22:35, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
The prominent inclusion of the group synonymous with racist violence in the U.S. -- especially when "balanced" by including the Knights of Columbus on the other side -- reads like it came from a bullet point on a pamphlet intended to smear the government by association.
Then, the totally unrelated third (final) sentence of the section reads like the author inadvertently included the next bullet point on that pamphlet, reporting a private telegram to France that reveals Calles's sinister socialist plan:
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:FDAB:CA4F:3B6B:E9A1 (
talk) 05:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
If anyone had bothered to actually peak at the article, the Ku Klux Klan and Knights of Columbus' aid was not 'negligible'. Their support was open and were prepared to chip in to the war effort. Frankly, I've done all I can do, as WP:3RR is stopping me from proceeding this war. Mebigrouxboy ( talk) 17:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
This currently reads
with Cristeros linked to the Liga. Is that a separate agreement from the "arreglos" brokered by Ambassador Morrow between Calles and Leopoldo Ruiz y Flóres (the Holy See's representative in Mexico)? The Liga article itself confirms that they were not party to the "Arreglos" agreement:
If there was a second Calles-Liga agreement, that absolutely deserves a mention in the article; if not, then the infobox should be corrected. I see from past Talk threads and several of the sources that there is overwhelming pushback at any suggestion of Vatican involvement in the conflict -- but could we thread the needle by leaving unstated the obvious inference from the fact that "the bishops" were able to "order [the cristeros] to cease military activities"? Just something like
Thoughts / objections? 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:340F:E0E4:F759:2E71 ( talk) 22:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
SuperSkaterDude45, opening another thread here for you to reply, and to focus things I'll summarize my understanding of the last two threads on the subject:
Hope this helps. I'm no expert on the subject, any pointers to sources on the Klan's support for the Calles government would be genuinely appreciated. 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:9C2B:6A86:92A0:29ED ( talk) 19:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Evidently there are a number of editors who feel strongly that the lede must assert that the 1917 constitution was not only secularist and anticlerical, not just that it disproportionately affected Catholics, but actually "aimed at" being specifically "anti-Catholic". This seems pretty blatantly un-encyclopedic and ahistorical, but given the *wildly* ahistorical comparison made in this edit comment, that's presumably the intent. As it stands today it clearly announces the article's biases from the start, which is at least helpful for the critical reader. Still, maybe worth discussing? Thanks (North American IPs) 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:AC37:EA1D:39F7:1331 ( talk) 00:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Everything under the subheading "Background" in the "Background" section seems redundant. It is simply a summarized (and somewhat biased) version of the rest of that same section. Thestereotypebuster ( talk) 16:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I finally broke down and got a print copy of this. I'll quote the entire referenced section (p.153):
Beyond confirming that Meyer does not claim that the outrageously-large "offer" was paid (or accepted), it's also clear that the only reason he brings up the Klan is to cast aspersions on those who criticized the KoC's funding of the rebels. The following paragraph ends rather ominously:
My takeaway is that giving the Klan a whole section is giving it undue weight -- even Meyer stuffed it in as an aside in his KoC section, and he's pretty transparent about where his bias lays.
But, since it seems like this myth of Klan support is still pervasive, maybe a Klan section clearly spelling out where this claim comes from would be helpful to casual readers.
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:874:91FC:5371:3055 ( talk) 23:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Here is recent scholarship that explains what the Calles government tried to do regarding the Catholic Church: from Robert Weis, "The Revolution on Trial: Assassination, Christianity, and the Rule of Law in 1920s Mexico." Hispanic American Historical Review. (May 2016) , Vol. 96 Issue 2, p319-353, page 323 states: "Against claims that revolutionaries sought to destroy the church, officials insisted that they pursued the rule of law. During his presidential campaign, Calles clarified that he was not an “enemy of religion”; he approved of “all religious beliefs because [he] consider[ed] them beneficial for the moral progress that they encompass.” He was, however, an enemy of “the political priest, the scheming priest, the priest as exploiter.”18 This position of lauding religion while inveighing against earthly ecclesiastic machinations was central to the trial and to the justification of the anticlerical campaign in general. As president, Calles expressed determination to enforce the laws of the 1917 constitution that mandated secular education, banned foreign priests as well as confessional political parties and newspapers, nationalized all church properties, and granted local governments the authority to limit the number of priests." Rjensen ( talk) 19:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
It would seem that once again, there seems to be a consensus that the KKK and KoC were involved, but this involvement is constantly being removed, from one specific, very odd individual who keeps vehemently saying "NO"! Interestingly, this individual seems to use the same or similar IP addresses all reporting back to Atlanta, GA and Ann Arbor, MI. Given the variety of addresses from two very specific geographical areas, it's very possible this individual is using a VPN or the Tor browser. This one person seems to be in conflict from almost everyone else who has added onto this article. This type of revisionist history is unfortunately very common in today's times, when fearmongering about "indoctrination" and "critical race theory" are constantly blasted over the news from certain media sources. It's unfortunate that some people would try to paint an organization such as the KKK in a positive light to fit a certain narrative, but that type of biased politics has no place on Wikipedia, where it is supposed to be objective and politically neutral, as to not favor one side or the other. I will keep my personal politics out of this, however it is painfully obvious why someone would try to erase KKK involvement in something; it is because they have a narrative to push. And that will just simply not be tolerated here. If you are looking to tell everyone how great the KKK is, by all means, do that, but please, not on Wikipedia. There are other websites (although not mainstream) that will support that narrative, but Wikipedia is not one of them. Trainerash123 ( talk) 03:51, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
This article is being vandalized by members or supporters of the KKK . It needs to be locked to prevent further vandalism. 174.240.65.189 ( talk) 18:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 6 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): PALOND03 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: GLGaglyport.
— Assignment last updated by GLGaglyport ( talk) 18:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
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There was nothing "Marxist" even remotely about the Revolutionary Government of Mexico that came to power on the heals of hte 1910-1918 Revolution. The closest it ever came to "Marxism" was under the Cardenas presidency ('34- '40) and at no point did *any* of Presidents, nor what became, can be described as "Marxist". it's actually quite a slander. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.81.228.221 ( talk) 18:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
You are in many ways correct, but many members of the government were inspired by Marx. Garrido particularly considered himself a Marxist. I am not sure about Calles, he have have had some Marxist influence. The government could be described as left-leaning but certainly not a Marxist government, as you say.
And it is not too much of a slander. In the Western world, secularism is a virtue. The laws prohibiting the church from owning too much land, trying to sway people to politics (religion and politics should not mix), stopping priests advertising their religions outside of church and having religious schools are things that are pretty much accepted as correct in most secular countries. If such laws were passed in the US and the UK (and some have been) people would not care but due to the church's dominance in Mexico, a rebellion occurred. There is no slander in talking about fact, though I do think this article (as usual for wikipedia) as a Christian (specifically Catholic) bias. I'd prefer the article to be truly neutral rather than trying to sway people in either direction (supporting the government or supporting the Cristeros). The Mummy ( talk) 13:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to have very few citations. There are a number of respected sources by academic historians, especially Jean Meyer's monumental three-volume work "La Cristiada," which should form the basis of the article.
Regarding who was at fault, a point that is brought up: that is not an issue to be raised in Wikipedia. The issue is getting the relevant facts into the piece and getting it right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.216.214.118 ( talk) 16:57, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
If the PRI was not Marxist? Why did Trotsky flee to Mexico is it because it was a nice climate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.84.76.115 ( talk) 14:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
This needs to use the Template:Battlebox, like seen on Polish-Soviet War for example. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I changed "human rights" to "civil rights" since that is a more accurate description of the rights involved: voting, freedom of expression, the right to wear clerical garb. 24.126.41.116 07:31, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC) aka User:Italo Svevo
Should there not be a bit more background on the 1917 Constitution? The articles there did not spring ex nihilo: they were rooted in a long-standing conflict between Independent Mexico and the RCC. The RCC first demanded that Independent Mexico take over the obligations of the Spanish Crown (vis a vis the Concordato signed between the Church and the Crown), but refused to grant them the corresponding priviledges (most notably, the naming of bishops and archbishops). When the 1856 Constitution did not include civil penalties and prosecution for failure to obey canon law (e.g., failure to pay a tithe and so on), the Church denounced it and issued an Excommunication Writ on anyone who swore to uphold it (as all civil officials were required to do). They then offered a ceremony for "removal of the oath" for anyone who wanted it. They would later reaffirm the excommunication writ though they only selectively enforced it during the Porfirio Diaz years. After Maximilian supported some of the Reform laws issued by Juarez and Lerdo de Tejada, the RCC demanded that he declare catholicism not only the official religion of Mexico, but "the one and only possible religion for all mexicans"; Maximilian refused, though he offered to make it the official religion of the Royal House (not enough for the RCC). The conflict hardly began in 1917; as for some of the civil rights, the right to vote was (and remains) denied on the grounds that the RCC clergy must swear an oath of fealty to a foreign head of state, an act that usually carries a revokation of citizenship not only in Mexico, but in most countries. Magidin Talk 10:14, 24 Aug 2005 (MDT)
Please note that as in any war or conflict in Mexico, complex underpinnings are at work. So to say that the Cristiada and the Cristero movement was completely caused by a dispute between the Mexican government and the Roman Catholic Church is miss the complete scope of the problem. Much has been said of President Plutarco Elías Calles and much of the evidence signals him as a pseudo fascist dictator. Much of his hate for Catholicism, could be rooted to a longing for a system similar to Francisco Franco's anticlerical Spain. The Vatican's later subjugation by Mussolini gives further evidence. With that said, much of the Cristero movement was more a liberal reaction (freedom of belief) than a conservative movement, although its roots appear to come from the 19th century Conservative party. Let's remember that after Porfirio Díaz (which merged both parties into one), Mexican ruling people have always tried to align opposition movements with the ill-fated Conservative wing. Even Cuauhtemoc Cárdenas was once pictured as a Conservative, opposed to the (neo)liberal Carlos Salinas de Gortari, which--of course--is a complete lie.-- 201.116.149.85 ( talk) 22:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Franco was not anti-cleric, the left-leaning Spanish Republic which he overthrow was. Mussolini was not particularly anti-clerical when it came to politics either, even if he was an atheist. You need to read up more on the history of these regimes. Also you should remember Salazar, leader of Portugal, who was an extreme Catholic and inspired by Fascism.
Anti-clericalism is not a core tenant of Fascism, it is, however, a core tenant of most Radical Left groups such as Marxism (particularly that of Marxism-Leninism...hence Envar Hoxha). Maybe some Cristeros were liberal, but most of their leaders were conservatives trying to preserve the status quo (incidentally one of the aims of Fascism is to do the same, but they are really more a backstep from conservatism). The Mummy ( talk) 13:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Concentration camp; The Cristero War; Near La Piedad Michoacan there was a stockyard, La Ribera, it's across the river from Yurécuaro, Michoacán It became a concentration camp. It was packed full of people Little food no salt there was a rule you better not point up and say christ is king off came your hands. My mother Francisca born 1921 she must have been 7y/o they cut her index finger off. She must have said something the guards didn't like. the on line says the Elite in Mexico City were Jewish. I'm not not found of catholic or jew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:647:C980:34F8:C44A:D818:4048:C0C5 ( talk) 22:35, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Fixed some word choices for readability and NPOV.
Also, shouldn't this article make some reference to the Sinarquista movement? I'll leave it to someone with a better grasp of the topic.
Some academicians advance the idea that the "Cristero War" was provoked by the Catholics. It is, of course, undeniable that the Constitution of 1917 took giant steps to guarantee a separation of the church and state (and perhaps, punished the Catholic church too harshly). However, some scholars argue that the church earned these punishments by attacking the writers of the constitution during time that supposedly was for worship.
A brief background of the Church's history in Mexico (including their involvement in the latifundios, speculation with land, amalgamation of wealth, support of a classist system, cooperation with Maximilian of Hapsburg and the war of Reform) should also help the readers put in perspective why the writers of the 1917 constitution felt to be so harsh on the church.
In my opinion, this article leads the reader to believe that the government repressed the church with no reason and that patriots fought for certain religious rights. Nothing is farther from the truth. First of all, the church was not unique in the repression they suffered. If anything, the government was permissive with the church compared to what it did to other groups. Second, the constitution was written the way it was for a reason, and that reason is not shown. Lastly, both sides in the blood shed where fanatics. The article, instead of emphasizing the irrationality behind the conflict, concludes with how certain warriors of the Catholic side were beatified and made saints!
This article is in favor of the catholic view, and should be revised for a neutral point of view.
Hari Seldon 08:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Regarding recent reverts between
Hari Seldon and
Mamalujo, it might be noted that it was the 1917 Constitution that granted Freedom of Religion in Mexico, while the Cristeros were against such a provision: they wanted an official Catholic government; much as in the 1857 Constitution, they objected to the Freedom of Conscience clauses in the Constitution, and to the Government not enforcing canon law (the latter being the source of the break between the Vatican and the Mexican government in the 19th century). While it is true that the Government went far beyond simply enforcing those provisions, both sides were active in denying freedom of conscience to others.
Magidin 19:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
While Juarez was certainly justified in the measures included in the original constitution to combat the enormous influence of the clergy, he did not foresee either the rise of socialism as a potent political force nor, apparently, the ends to which state control of education might be applied. Calles certainly took advantage of that, and certain elements of Mexican society showed themselves willing to go even further. Both the political class and the clergy understood at high levels that socialism and the church could not coexist in the long run, hence strife was certainly a predictable result. 68.189.219.96 ( talk) 16:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Why is this article featured? It's not that good. It could be a lot larger, it doesn't present a single historian's view, it's not really NPOV and it simply reads bad. I suggest this article should lose its featured status, how does that work? Mixcoatl 02:56, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the intro simply describe the government as anti-clerical? "Anti-Catholic" seems to be a rather POV position. AshbyJnr 15:56, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a matter of historical fact that the "anti-clerical" laws of the 1917 Constitution were directed against the Catholic Church. The liberal governments actively favored protestant groups and attempted to use the 1917 "anti-clerical" articles to destroy Catholicism. The liberals, most of whom were anti-Catholic Freemasons, wished to subdue and even destroy the Church. So referring to their policies as "anti-Catholic" does not violate NPOV. "Anti-clerical" is a term used by the liberals to imply that somehow their measures were only directed at the clergy, when in fact they were directed at Catholic education and religious activity by laymen as well. 189.169.221.22 ( talk) 20:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Anti-clerical? Yes. Anti-Catholic? Yes too. Even if the average Mexican catholic did not suffer proportionally as much as the clergy they still were persecuted. The Government stealing huge swaths of church property including closing all of the schools and stealing the buildings and the same with monastery's and hospitals and of courses the churches themselves. This theft hurt all Mexican catholics. Peppermintschnapps ( talk) 00:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
I am afraid you are only enlisting half of the martyrs of the Cristero War. You must also include those teachers who were tortured or murdered by the Cristeros accused of teaching a socialist education. They were known as maestros desorejados because the Cristeros used to cut-off their ears. Here is a small list of those teachers:
This article is highly biased. Instead of explaining the facts and the history behind the cristero war, this article seems to had been written with a pro-Catholic sentiment and often expresses opinions rather than facts. Alex Covarrubias ( Talk? ) 21:26, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to jump in, forgive the bold, I just want it easy to read. So it stands apart a bit from the rest of the discussion. I agree that bias and point-of-view nonsense has to be kept out...but let me tell you about Los Cristeros and their legacy.
If my grandmother had not been so incredibly brave and clever, I wouldn't be here. She and my mother were home alone when the Cristeros came to town. Those people pillaged, raped and burned the Church. "They were highwaymen, robbers, brigands and murderers," according to my mother who was about 19 when the attack happened.
This, since it is my family's recollection and they were there, cannot be introduced by me into the article, but I hope it gives you all a perspective of these people and what their caliber really was. They were no heroes. My grandmother was a God-fearing 3rd Order Carmelite and my whole family was deeply Catholic. No one at the time knew we were really Jews--Conversos. And my mother barely escaped with her life. 76.195.85.164 ( talk) 08:27, 10 March 2010 (UTC)'
I too would like to add some perspective from my uncle that witnessed the Cristero War. My uncle, Luis Maldonado (my grandfather's older brother), told me his older brother was killed by the Cristero rebellion when they entered the village of Aguililla, in the state of Michoacan. He told me the following. The rebels came into town and some sympathizers would tell them which homes had men of fighting age, weapons, and food. The rebels would forcefully help themselves to whatever they needed. When the Cristeros started for my uncles home, he grabbed the family pistol and ran to escape capture. In those days, if the rebels found a pistol in a home, they would have destroyed everything in the home for fear that the home may belong to a potential enemy. As he headed for the hills, the men shot at hit but missed. As my uncle got over the hill, another group of Cristeros were waiting for him and they shot him dead. They took his pistol and left him there. My uncle Luis was around 8 years old when he saw his brother murdered. While he remained a devout Catholic until his death in 2007, he told me he always feared the church's bandits more than the Mexican government. Chubbylopez ( talk) 06:34, 26 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chubbylopez ( talk • contribs) 06:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Freemasonry as a fringe theory or not aside, what evidence is there that the presidents followings the Constitution of 1917 were Freemasons and that they were actively pursuing anti-clergy/anti-Catholic policies as part of their Freemason backgrounds? Can we get some citations in here? Some kind of connection with Freemasonry other than one sentence in the introduction? Umma Kynes 02:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ummakynes ( talk • contribs)
I think this article should be extended to cover the second Cristero War ("La Segunda") which lasted from 1934 to 1941. Alternatively, a separate article (similar to the one in the Spanish Wikipedia) could be written. The part about "Martyrs of Education" could then be merged with the new section/article.
I must object to the post above. Probably no one's reading this, but even though Chubby who is oviously not around now isn't anti-Catholic--he's repeating what his relative told him--I don't think there is room on the article for unsubstantiated anti-religion rhetoric there. I do not know what "the church's bandits" is supposed to mean, but the Mexican people never had to fear the Catholic Church sending an army of bandits in this time period.
I know the family feelings of anti-Catholicism because my people are Sefardita Jews, even though it is plain we became Catholic. Even as Catholics, my family had anti-Catholic inclinations, but that did not lead to violence, and my family never spoke nonsense about "bandits" affiliated with the Church. 75.21.115.123 ( talk) 17:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Are you really that stupid and ignorant. The Legion of Christ was founded 1941. It has nothing to do with the Cristeros of the 1920s. Why are Anti-Catholic bigots so ignorant in their bigotry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.139.105 ( talk) 02:42, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The editor(s) who created this section did a very good job. Notwithstanding that, the section doesn't fall within the subject matter of this article. The Cristero war ended in 1929 and this section points out that the killings were between 1935 and 1939. Another source says 1931-1940. Moreover, some of the sources distinguish the Cristeros from the perpetrators of these atrocities, who are referred to as bragados. I'd suggest we create a new article with a link from here in the See Also section and also include that article within the Cristero War category. Thoughts? Mamalujo ( talk) 21:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
What this article really needs is a detailed historical analysis about what happened between the signature of the agreements in June 1929 and the end of Lazaro Cardenas' presidency in November 1940, because there are many important facts that need to be explained in a general context, for example:
It is my personal point of view that neither Pope Pius XI, nor Pope John Paul II, nor a lot of authors consider(ed) that the bilateral hostilities ended in 1929, and we cannot do so either.
Best whishes:-- 189.217.47.71 ( talk) 05:17, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Considering that both the Cristero saints and the Martyrs of the education elements include substantial reference to immediate post-war events, it would be grossly biased to remove only one. IAC-62 ( talk) 22:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, yes. After the War, Catholic peasants who wanted control of their children's lives killed government-sent anti-Catholic ("Socialist") teachers in some parts of Mexico. And the government itself continued to murder priests and nuns. For example, Fr. Pro. Sad that that the oppression of the Catholic peasants continued and sad that they resisted, right? But this is not part of the Cristero War, so move it to another page. Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.164.139.105 ( talk) 03:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I want to point out that the following text was erased even when it is supported by five references included in published books. Is that an acceptable attitude for editing an encyclopedia?, I do not think so.
{{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)Ignacio C. Enríques (1915).
The religious question in Mexico, number 7. I.C. Enriquez. p. 10.Robert P. Millon (1995).
Zapata: The Ideology of a Peasant Revolutionary. International Publishers Co. p. 23.
ISBN
071780710X, 9780717807109. {{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)Carlo de Fornaro, John Farley (1916).
What the Catholic Church Has Done to Mexico. Latin-American News Association. p. 13–14.Peter Gran (1996).
Beyond Eurocentrism: a new view of modern world history. Syracuse University Press. p. 165.
ISBN
0815626924, 9780815626923. {{
cite book}}
: Check |isbn=
value: invalid character (
help)The anticlerical provisions in the Mexican Constitution of 1917 were not included just by chance. It is an article about the confrontation between the Catholic Church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, so it important to say that these anticlerical provisions were included as a consequence of the confrontation between the Catholic church and the revolutionary governments in Mexico, even if we do not like the facts. Indeed Carranza Oregon and Calles fought against Victoriano Huerta dictatorhip. 189.217.17.16 ( talk) 06:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is definitely biased. Apparently there were anti-religious excesses in some places, but 90% of the things described here as "disregarding/offending/persecuting Catholics" are just standard progressive and democratic features, and they are still in the Mexican Constitution. Sources such as "Blood-drenched altars" by some Father are inappropriate, and given the equally ridiculous pro-Catholic bias of most of the other sources, I'm sure they could be balanced out by sources with a less obscurantist perspective.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 02:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
::: I wonder if
Vermeervermillion is concerned about the treatment accorded to non-Catholic Christians who are harrassed in parts of Mexico by local officials and subjected to "extralegal" persecution. See
here.
Quis separabit? 19:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Looking over the article one more time, the one section which is obviously POV is the "Atrocities by the Cristeros against rural teachers" one. And that's not a pro-hardline-Catholic bias, it's the other one. First, as pointed out above, the scope of these events falls into the so-called "Second Cristero War" or just generally is usually treated separately from the events of the mid 20's. Second, as some of the sources indicate, the atrocities were committed by a minority of former Cristeros. Most former Cristeros adopted peaceful means of resistance. So this should be both rewritten and split off. Volunteer Marek 03:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to point out that several years after this article was created, entire important sections of text, have no sources or reflinks, including, but not limited to, "Diplomacy and the uprising", "Cristero War", "Escalation of violence", and "Background to rebellion".
I also would add, for Mamalujo, that the term "reportedly" is not weaselry if there is no source for an assertion or claim, or if the source is plainly biased (i.e. the EWTN, which is a militant Catholic apologetics website). And "atheist" is most certainly not used as an epithet, not in any real encyclopedia. My father was a proud atheist as am I. This is an encyclopedia, not an ecclesial website or a site for propaganda (on either side) to go unchecked. Quis separabit? 17:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
There seems a curious reluctance to address the underlying real issue behind the war. The clear fact is that the government was socialist, and wished to indoctrinate the public through education; that education would, among other things, jeopardize the church in the long run. Calle himself said as much. It was not only that the government was hostile to the church as a near term threat, church teachings were and are anti-socialist; the every nature of socialism denies the significance of the individual, in direct contradiction of the teachings of Christ; this was the reason for the suppression of Church education. That socialism and religion can never be reconciled was understood by the hierarchy in both the government and the church; indeed it is and was then understood by socialists throughout the world. In as deeply religious a nation as Mexico, war was inevitable. What is fairly surprising is that the government was forced to reach any kind of accommodation with the church at all; the position of the government at the time must have been quite weak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.187.38.79 ( talk) 13:51, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Text attributed to three highly reputable and unbiased reliable sources was deleted with this summary: "I am not convinced that wording is neutral or in line with the best sources" The language is that of the reliable and unbiased sources. And they are in fact top sources. First cited is Anthony James Joes, who is a professor at St. Joseph University and is Chair of its Faculty Research Board, was formerly chair of its political science department and former Director of its International Relations Program. His doctorate is from an Ivy institution, University of Pennsylvania. His book is published by a major university press. The second source is Emily Edmonds-Poli who is a specialist on politics in Mexico. She is the director of the MA program in International Relations at University of San Diego. Her coauthor is also a specialist on Mexican Politics, a professor of political science at the University of San Diego and Director of its Trans-Border Institutute. Their publisher is known for producing books and journals for the academic market. The third, Vikram K. Chand received a PhD in Political Science from Harvard University. He is currently Senior Public Sector Management Specialist, The World Bank, New Delhi. His book is also from a major university press. I’ve added in the footnotes his text. I’ve also added as additional sourcing The Cambridge History of Latin America and from Triumphs and Tragedy: A History of the Mexican People by Ramon Eduardo Ruiz, who according to the L.A. Times was “ a renowned historian of Mexico and Latin America whose books included in-depth studies of the Mexican and Cuban revolutions”. He was an emeritus professor of history at UC San Diego and also had a distinguished career at Mexican institutions of higher education. His publisher is also known for academic works and textbooks. Mamalujo ( talk) 00:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
"hanged" for "hung." Here is why:
"Hanged, as a past tense and a past participle of hang, is used in the sense of “to put to death by hanging,” as in Frontier courts hanged many a prisoner after a summary trial. A majority of the Usage Panel objects to hung used in this sense. In all other senses of the word, hung is the preferred form as past tense and past participle, as in I hung my child's picture above my desk.
(The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, 2000) Einar aka
Carptrash (
talk) 20:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
There are several other depictions in popular culture. "The Fugitive" (1947 film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fugitive_%281947_film%29 staring Henry Fonda depicts an unnamed priest in the 1930s during the religious persecutions following the war. It is based on a 1940 book by Graham Greene "The Power and the Glory" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_and_the_Glory. Several other adaptions of the book were made for TV and stage. These are cited in the book article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletknight72 ( talk • contribs) 04:19, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The group is mentioned in the lead but their role is not explained in the body of the article. What did they do exactly? Rmhermen ( talk) 15:03, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
You need to research. They fought against KKK who sent private telegrams to President Calles and offered $10,000.00 Ten Thousand dollars to fight the Catholic church and pay for government soldiers to maintain the Catholic ban on religious practice when they secretly found out that the Knights of Columbus offered one thousand dollars to the Cristero rebels. Google is your friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeartyBowl1989 ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
It seems the article goes off track in this section. Perhaps this information about teachers should be split off into its own article since it is no longer about the Cristero War, but a different somewhat related subject. Taram ( talk) 06:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Cristero War/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
This article is clearly written with sympathy to the Catholic Church-it is not objective enough for me. 189.162.129.148 ( talk) 05:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC) |
Last edited at 05:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 12:26, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
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I've removed an unsourced and nonsensical category. "Persecution by atheists". The edit summary accompanying the insertion says:
While that may be true, it does not support "persecution by atheists", so I've removed it until reliable sources are provided which convey that the persecution was because of atheism. Xenophrenic ( talk) 12:45, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
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There's a sentence at the end of the "Church and State Conflict" which reads: "To destroy the Church's influence over the Mexican people, anti-clerical laws were instituted, beginning a ten-year religious conflict that resulted in the death of thousands of civilians who took up arms to fight for their religious freedom". I'll remove the last part of the sentence, "who took up arms to fight for their religous freedom".
The reason is that the sentence establishes a subjective undertone to the otherwise impartial information that was given previously. Even if the personal motivation of one given individual was “religious freedom”, as a whole, the Cristero affair can be seen more as a conflict between the old and new Mexican elites: the church and the revolutionary state. Presenting them as martyrs that died for civil rights undermines the fact that the Catholic Church had been a huge political and social influence in México for centuries. The church, as an institution, was fighting to keep their influence and power in law making. This can be read in almost all of the books and articles written and published by the most respected Mexican historians. Erick Rozo ( talk) 16:47, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
-Response- I can't speak to "the most respected Mexican historians". This statement, "The church, as an institution, was fighting to keep their influence and power in law making", sure sounds reductionist likely marxist, i.e. religious events are reducible to political and economic motivations. Jean Meyer in his 3 volume work also attacks just that view. Meyer gives two reasons for the beginning of the war. The governing elites were imbued with American-Protestant-Liberal views. [who saw Catholicism as the worst enemy. e.g. the congressional funds appropriated to send a good Protestant mission to the newly American Catholics in Alaska (Orthodox were no different from Catholic in the eyes of the congressmen), Blaine amendments, and attempts to drastically restrict or eliminate immigration from Catholic countries in Europe]. The second reason was the government's belief that the Catholic Church was a rival to the power of the state. There were similar conflicts between elites imbued in American Protestant thought and the people. E.g. Rafael Carrera in Guatemala.
Meyer concludes the Cales government acted very similarly to other totalitarian states in the first half of the 20th century in its attempt to eliminate the Catholic Church. Below I give a passage from Meyer's 1976 English translation in which he makes this connection. You can argue with his conclusions; however, he was the first to go out study this war. He went into the field and took interviews. He went into the archives. I trust a historian who tries to let the sources speak for themselves than "almost all of the books and articles written and published by the most respected Mexican historians." The work of a scholar who does the most and best research is more reliable than a consensus of reductionist historians.
Page 208 of Meyer, Jean A. The Cristero Rebellion: The Mexican People between Church and State, 1926-1929. Cambridge Latin American Studies.No. 24. Cambridge ; New York: Cambridge University Press, 1976.
“The course of that decade, and only for limited time, the Mexican state became God and hid behind its own myth, that of the revolution, the myth which disguised the existence of the new ruling class.” “Knowing nothing of the legitimacy of tradition or formal legality, this power fell back on its own absolutism, and gave itself an official ideology, a single mass political party, a monopoly on information and propaganda, and finally declared war on society in order to assure its own dominance over the scene of dislocation.” “The police and the Army were thrown against various social groups, the peasants, the city dwellers, the middle classes, in order to break down the social structures in the basic rural social nucleus.” “The ‘colonial’ war waged against the Cristeros was similar, with its enforced resettlement of the population, to the totalitarian system concentration camps. The attempt to destroy the church and, in the shorter term, the family (especially in Tabasco and after the experiment with ‘social education’), was accompanied by the systematic partitioning of the population by the Party and its satellite organizations” (208).
I will wait two weeks for any comments. If no one objects I will make the change back. April 4, 2018
Safinski ( talk) 19:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
It is inaccurate to include the Holy See as a belligerent in this war, being that they did not directly support the taking up of arms by Cristeros, they did not canonize anyone who did so, etc. Elizium23 ( talk) 18:56, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes they did it even says it later in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hacheyexcellent ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Hi 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:2566:EE89:3238:D86B ( talk) I had just seen images on the internet everywhere of them being featured and I thought one of those people who just go around trashing things omitted it to be jerks. Had no concrete source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hacheyexcellent ( talk • contribs) 02:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
I was wondering whether the photos of the hangings are necessary? Especially if there are no prior warnings regarding them appearing in the article. Perhaps a description of what occurred in writing would suffice? 86.183.32.105 ( talk) 22:35, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
The prominent inclusion of the group synonymous with racist violence in the U.S. -- especially when "balanced" by including the Knights of Columbus on the other side -- reads like it came from a bullet point on a pamphlet intended to smear the government by association.
Then, the totally unrelated third (final) sentence of the section reads like the author inadvertently included the next bullet point on that pamphlet, reporting a private telegram to France that reveals Calles's sinister socialist plan:
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:FDAB:CA4F:3B6B:E9A1 (
talk) 05:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
If anyone had bothered to actually peak at the article, the Ku Klux Klan and Knights of Columbus' aid was not 'negligible'. Their support was open and were prepared to chip in to the war effort. Frankly, I've done all I can do, as WP:3RR is stopping me from proceeding this war. Mebigrouxboy ( talk) 17:27, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
This currently reads
with Cristeros linked to the Liga. Is that a separate agreement from the "arreglos" brokered by Ambassador Morrow between Calles and Leopoldo Ruiz y Flóres (the Holy See's representative in Mexico)? The Liga article itself confirms that they were not party to the "Arreglos" agreement:
If there was a second Calles-Liga agreement, that absolutely deserves a mention in the article; if not, then the infobox should be corrected. I see from past Talk threads and several of the sources that there is overwhelming pushback at any suggestion of Vatican involvement in the conflict -- but could we thread the needle by leaving unstated the obvious inference from the fact that "the bishops" were able to "order [the cristeros] to cease military activities"? Just something like
Thoughts / objections? 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:340F:E0E4:F759:2E71 ( talk) 22:47, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
SuperSkaterDude45, opening another thread here for you to reply, and to focus things I'll summarize my understanding of the last two threads on the subject:
Hope this helps. I'm no expert on the subject, any pointers to sources on the Klan's support for the Calles government would be genuinely appreciated. 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:9C2B:6A86:92A0:29ED ( talk) 19:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Evidently there are a number of editors who feel strongly that the lede must assert that the 1917 constitution was not only secularist and anticlerical, not just that it disproportionately affected Catholics, but actually "aimed at" being specifically "anti-Catholic". This seems pretty blatantly un-encyclopedic and ahistorical, but given the *wildly* ahistorical comparison made in this edit comment, that's presumably the intent. As it stands today it clearly announces the article's biases from the start, which is at least helpful for the critical reader. Still, maybe worth discussing? Thanks (North American IPs) 2600:1702:6D1:28B0:AC37:EA1D:39F7:1331 ( talk) 00:49, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Everything under the subheading "Background" in the "Background" section seems redundant. It is simply a summarized (and somewhat biased) version of the rest of that same section. Thestereotypebuster ( talk) 16:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
I finally broke down and got a print copy of this. I'll quote the entire referenced section (p.153):
Beyond confirming that Meyer does not claim that the outrageously-large "offer" was paid (or accepted), it's also clear that the only reason he brings up the Klan is to cast aspersions on those who criticized the KoC's funding of the rebels. The following paragraph ends rather ominously:
My takeaway is that giving the Klan a whole section is giving it undue weight -- even Meyer stuffed it in as an aside in his KoC section, and he's pretty transparent about where his bias lays.
But, since it seems like this myth of Klan support is still pervasive, maybe a Klan section clearly spelling out where this claim comes from would be helpful to casual readers.
2600:1702:6D1:28B0:874:91FC:5371:3055 ( talk) 23:37, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
Here is recent scholarship that explains what the Calles government tried to do regarding the Catholic Church: from Robert Weis, "The Revolution on Trial: Assassination, Christianity, and the Rule of Law in 1920s Mexico." Hispanic American Historical Review. (May 2016) , Vol. 96 Issue 2, p319-353, page 323 states: "Against claims that revolutionaries sought to destroy the church, officials insisted that they pursued the rule of law. During his presidential campaign, Calles clarified that he was not an “enemy of religion”; he approved of “all religious beliefs because [he] consider[ed] them beneficial for the moral progress that they encompass.” He was, however, an enemy of “the political priest, the scheming priest, the priest as exploiter.”18 This position of lauding religion while inveighing against earthly ecclesiastic machinations was central to the trial and to the justification of the anticlerical campaign in general. As president, Calles expressed determination to enforce the laws of the 1917 constitution that mandated secular education, banned foreign priests as well as confessional political parties and newspapers, nationalized all church properties, and granted local governments the authority to limit the number of priests." Rjensen ( talk) 19:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
It would seem that once again, there seems to be a consensus that the KKK and KoC were involved, but this involvement is constantly being removed, from one specific, very odd individual who keeps vehemently saying "NO"! Interestingly, this individual seems to use the same or similar IP addresses all reporting back to Atlanta, GA and Ann Arbor, MI. Given the variety of addresses from two very specific geographical areas, it's very possible this individual is using a VPN or the Tor browser. This one person seems to be in conflict from almost everyone else who has added onto this article. This type of revisionist history is unfortunately very common in today's times, when fearmongering about "indoctrination" and "critical race theory" are constantly blasted over the news from certain media sources. It's unfortunate that some people would try to paint an organization such as the KKK in a positive light to fit a certain narrative, but that type of biased politics has no place on Wikipedia, where it is supposed to be objective and politically neutral, as to not favor one side or the other. I will keep my personal politics out of this, however it is painfully obvious why someone would try to erase KKK involvement in something; it is because they have a narrative to push. And that will just simply not be tolerated here. If you are looking to tell everyone how great the KKK is, by all means, do that, but please, not on Wikipedia. There are other websites (although not mainstream) that will support that narrative, but Wikipedia is not one of them. Trainerash123 ( talk) 03:51, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
This article is being vandalized by members or supporters of the KKK . It needs to be locked to prevent further vandalism. 174.240.65.189 ( talk) 18:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 6 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): PALOND03 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: GLGaglyport.
— Assignment last updated by GLGaglyport ( talk) 18:11, 6 October 2023 (UTC)