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The result of the move request was: No consensus. !Voting is almost a 50:50 split here, and when I look at the arguments made by supporters and opposers, there are really valid policy points to be found on both sides - I don't think I can make a definitive determination that either side has presented better evidence or more policy-compliant reasoning. As an example, it was said below that "people knowledgeable about the topic !vote one way, and well-intentioned editors unfamiliar with the topic !vote another", and there is some evidence that specialist and medical sources prefer "chest binding", but equally there was an ngram presented which shows "breast binding" enjoying something of a lead in book sources. All in all there's no consensus here. If people want to follow up on the suggestion below of a split, to make an article more particularly about the term "chest binding" in the trans community then that's a subject for a fresh discussion. Cheers — Amakuru ( talk) 12:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Breast binding → Chest binding – Per the previous discussion on this Talk page, the term "breast binding" has been mostly supplanted in the media ( 1, 2) and medical sources by "chest binding." As mentioned previously, Google Trends shows that the term is far more popular than the current one. Many of the more recent sources for this page use "chest binding." There are many studies and medical sources ( 1, 2), including the medical-standard WPATH Standards of Care, that also use it. Additionally, the current title uses gendered language for anatomy, which can be noninclusive for some people. Lastly, as societal acceptance and understanding of LGBTQ people changes, so too must our language. Iscargra ( talk) 12:55, 2 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 06:14, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
where this can be done with clarity and precision- this is a perfect example of when doing so would severely reduce clarity and precision, as explained. Use of "chest" by media sources like the New York Times or by Google Trends (as linked by OP) carries very little weight on a medical topic. One last thing - the article shows that there are all sorts of reasons for cisgender women to bind their breasts, so titling the term after one used only about trans people is not warranted, especially when the existing term is more accurate overall. Crossroads -talk- 00:14, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
"breast binding" AND ("transgender" OR "trans" OR "non-binary")
in each search tool (PubMed, Google Scholar, Google Search, Wikipedia Library) to try and filter out sources that do not refer trans or non-binary, I get the following results:
"breast binding" AND ("transgender" OR "trans" OR "non-binary" OR "cosplay" OR "crossplay" OR "lactation suppression" OR "aesthetics" OR "gynecomastia" OR "moxiong" OR "sarashi") AND NOT ("surgery" OR "recovery" OR "asthma")
would match sources that contain "breast binding" plus any of the second set of words while excluding the third set of words.polluted with irrelevancies. The use of qualifying terms makes a straight comparison between the two terms fair, as otherwise you would be comparing all usages of "breast binding" regardless of context, against a narrow context use of the term "chest binding". Not using qualifying terms is stacking the deck.
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.If "breast binding" is more common, is it so much more common that we can't choose an alternative? I think not. It looks like the two terms are both fairly common, as indicated by the various comparisons by others. This being so, we can look at discerning whether either of the choices "has problems". And it is so. My anecdotal experience with the trans community informs me that the current title has a somewhat harmful effect on the community. I recognize that
has problemsis a nebulous term, but I think it correlates well enough to "somewhat harmful". - UtherSRG (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.I see the argument that "chest binding" is slightly less precise than "breast binding", but this is not especially persuasive; outside a specific, technical medical context, both phrases are perfectly intelligible to mean the same thing. WebMD is apparently comfortable to use "chest binding" without disambiguation, for instance; moreover, WP:PRECISION mentions that some precision may be sacrificed in favor of other criteria. I also see it mentioned that "breast" is a gender- or sex-neutral term (and therefore unproblematic), but I'm not sure I agree. At least colloquially, "breast" is first taken to mean the female organ, then the male organ; even Wiktionary first defines "breast" as
Either of the two organs on the front of a female human's chest; then, almost as an afterthought,
also the analogous organs in males.Simply because a term may be used in a sex-neutral manner does not mean that its commonly understood meaning is sex-neutral.However, I'm not sure it's clear that this article is only about binding in a transgender or queer context. It seems to cast a broader net, describing chest or breast binding as practiced for various reasons in different cultures, which muddies the water a bit. It might be enough reason to choose "breast binding" above "chest binding". Would it be better to have one general-focus article and one article specifically on transgender binding? Shells-shells ( talk) 05:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Would it be better to have one general-focus article and one article specifically on transgender binding?" This may be the best solution. The term "breast binding" relates to cultural, religious, and fashion practices affecting females; whereas "chest binding" has become the more palatable terminology for describing breast binding by trans men. If you look at the above-referenced PubMed, Google Scholar, and Google Search result links you see that PubMed chest binding links are transgender related results, Google Scholar chest binding links are also related to transgender, and Google Search links are predominantly about "transmasculine" and gender affirming. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
@
Iscargra: per your comment on 8 November 2022: "Making a separate article about transgender-specific binding and studies, while leaving the general article with a summary of it is a pretty good idea, since it's how most pages about more complex topics are done. I might make a draft for a page for trans-specific binding in the future.
" — it's been two months since discussion was closed ... do you still intend on splitting the article into (1) "general" subject and (2) "transgender-specific"? Or should I do it for you?
Pyxis Solitary
(yak yak). Ol' homo. 19:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
50:50 split ... and when I look at the arguments made by supporters and opposers, there are really valid policy points to be found on both sides - I don't think I can make a definitive determination that either side has presented better evidence or more policy-compliant reasoning."
If people want to follow up on the suggestion below of a split, to make an article more particularly about the term "chest binding" in the trans community then that's a subject for a fresh discussion.This seems to be that discussion.
Do we write binder (clothing) or transgender chest binding?and
If it's the latter, then where do we have content on current non-trans related chest binding topics that use the term chest binding over breast binding like cosplay and medicine?Once I, and other editors who may be reading this, understand which split is being proposed, then proper feedback as to the scope and title can be solicited, and consensus for that split or the other one can be determined. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
If it's the latter, then where do we have content on current non-trans related chest binding topics that use the term chest binding over breast binding like cosplay and medicine?. As far as I can tell, the proposal is that this article be about breast binding for non-gender-identity related reasons, while the transgender-affirming practice as done by some trans men and non-binary people would then be its own article. Crossroads -talk- 23:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
the proposal is that this article be about breast binding for non-gender-identity related reasons, while the transgender-affirming practice as done by some trans men and non-binary people would then be its own article." Correct. [A] The title of this article (Breast binding) remains with its material about historical, cultural, religious, medical, and in fashion binding of female breasts; [B] material about transgender/non-binary affirming "chest binding" becomes a transgender-related article (e.g. Transgender and non-binary chest binding). Cosplay, crossplay, and costuming have their own articles and can be referred to with a hatnote. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 18:39, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Opened this page to be a little shocked that this article is categorized under "violence against women" on the sidebar instead of the transgender sidebar - is this appropriate? I realize that the article cites one occurrence where this did result in violence against women, but by and large this seems to not be the case and the implication of the sidebar seems to tip into WP:FRINGE about transgender men being mutilated women - see the article on Abigail Shrier's book Irreversible Damage in which she frames all FTM transition as social contagion and a symptom of a misogynistic society.
I would just remove and edit the sidebar myself, but I realize that wholesale removal of something like this can provoke strong emotions, so I thought I would check in about why this choice has been made before I changed it. Computer-ergonomics ( talk) 14:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Breast binding article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 120 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
The result of the move request was: No consensus. !Voting is almost a 50:50 split here, and when I look at the arguments made by supporters and opposers, there are really valid policy points to be found on both sides - I don't think I can make a definitive determination that either side has presented better evidence or more policy-compliant reasoning. As an example, it was said below that "people knowledgeable about the topic !vote one way, and well-intentioned editors unfamiliar with the topic !vote another", and there is some evidence that specialist and medical sources prefer "chest binding", but equally there was an ngram presented which shows "breast binding" enjoying something of a lead in book sources. All in all there's no consensus here. If people want to follow up on the suggestion below of a split, to make an article more particularly about the term "chest binding" in the trans community then that's a subject for a fresh discussion. Cheers — Amakuru ( talk) 12:10, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Breast binding → Chest binding – Per the previous discussion on this Talk page, the term "breast binding" has been mostly supplanted in the media ( 1, 2) and medical sources by "chest binding." As mentioned previously, Google Trends shows that the term is far more popular than the current one. Many of the more recent sources for this page use "chest binding." There are many studies and medical sources ( 1, 2), including the medical-standard WPATH Standards of Care, that also use it. Additionally, the current title uses gendered language for anatomy, which can be noninclusive for some people. Lastly, as societal acceptance and understanding of LGBTQ people changes, so too must our language. Iscargra ( talk) 12:55, 2 November 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 06:14, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
where this can be done with clarity and precision- this is a perfect example of when doing so would severely reduce clarity and precision, as explained. Use of "chest" by media sources like the New York Times or by Google Trends (as linked by OP) carries very little weight on a medical topic. One last thing - the article shows that there are all sorts of reasons for cisgender women to bind their breasts, so titling the term after one used only about trans people is not warranted, especially when the existing term is more accurate overall. Crossroads -talk- 00:14, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
"breast binding" AND ("transgender" OR "trans" OR "non-binary")
in each search tool (PubMed, Google Scholar, Google Search, Wikipedia Library) to try and filter out sources that do not refer trans or non-binary, I get the following results:
"breast binding" AND ("transgender" OR "trans" OR "non-binary" OR "cosplay" OR "crossplay" OR "lactation suppression" OR "aesthetics" OR "gynecomastia" OR "moxiong" OR "sarashi") AND NOT ("surgery" OR "recovery" OR "asthma")
would match sources that contain "breast binding" plus any of the second set of words while excluding the third set of words.polluted with irrelevancies. The use of qualifying terms makes a straight comparison between the two terms fair, as otherwise you would be comparing all usages of "breast binding" regardless of context, against a narrow context use of the term "chest binding". Not using qualifying terms is stacking the deck.
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.If "breast binding" is more common, is it so much more common that we can't choose an alternative? I think not. It looks like the two terms are both fairly common, as indicated by the various comparisons by others. This being so, we can look at discerning whether either of the choices "has problems". And it is so. My anecdotal experience with the trans community informs me that the current title has a somewhat harmful effect on the community. I recognize that
has problemsis a nebulous term, but I think it correlates well enough to "somewhat harmful". - UtherSRG (talk) 22:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.I see the argument that "chest binding" is slightly less precise than "breast binding", but this is not especially persuasive; outside a specific, technical medical context, both phrases are perfectly intelligible to mean the same thing. WebMD is apparently comfortable to use "chest binding" without disambiguation, for instance; moreover, WP:PRECISION mentions that some precision may be sacrificed in favor of other criteria. I also see it mentioned that "breast" is a gender- or sex-neutral term (and therefore unproblematic), but I'm not sure I agree. At least colloquially, "breast" is first taken to mean the female organ, then the male organ; even Wiktionary first defines "breast" as
Either of the two organs on the front of a female human's chest; then, almost as an afterthought,
also the analogous organs in males.Simply because a term may be used in a sex-neutral manner does not mean that its commonly understood meaning is sex-neutral.However, I'm not sure it's clear that this article is only about binding in a transgender or queer context. It seems to cast a broader net, describing chest or breast binding as practiced for various reasons in different cultures, which muddies the water a bit. It might be enough reason to choose "breast binding" above "chest binding". Would it be better to have one general-focus article and one article specifically on transgender binding? Shells-shells ( talk) 05:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Would it be better to have one general-focus article and one article specifically on transgender binding?" This may be the best solution. The term "breast binding" relates to cultural, religious, and fashion practices affecting females; whereas "chest binding" has become the more palatable terminology for describing breast binding by trans men. If you look at the above-referenced PubMed, Google Scholar, and Google Search result links you see that PubMed chest binding links are transgender related results, Google Scholar chest binding links are also related to transgender, and Google Search links are predominantly about "transmasculine" and gender affirming. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
@
Iscargra: per your comment on 8 November 2022: "Making a separate article about transgender-specific binding and studies, while leaving the general article with a summary of it is a pretty good idea, since it's how most pages about more complex topics are done. I might make a draft for a page for trans-specific binding in the future.
" — it's been two months since discussion was closed ... do you still intend on splitting the article into (1) "general" subject and (2) "transgender-specific"? Or should I do it for you?
Pyxis Solitary
(yak yak). Ol' homo. 19:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
50:50 split ... and when I look at the arguments made by supporters and opposers, there are really valid policy points to be found on both sides - I don't think I can make a definitive determination that either side has presented better evidence or more policy-compliant reasoning."
If people want to follow up on the suggestion below of a split, to make an article more particularly about the term "chest binding" in the trans community then that's a subject for a fresh discussion.This seems to be that discussion.
Do we write binder (clothing) or transgender chest binding?and
If it's the latter, then where do we have content on current non-trans related chest binding topics that use the term chest binding over breast binding like cosplay and medicine?Once I, and other editors who may be reading this, understand which split is being proposed, then proper feedback as to the scope and title can be solicited, and consensus for that split or the other one can be determined. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 20:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
If it's the latter, then where do we have content on current non-trans related chest binding topics that use the term chest binding over breast binding like cosplay and medicine?. As far as I can tell, the proposal is that this article be about breast binding for non-gender-identity related reasons, while the transgender-affirming practice as done by some trans men and non-binary people would then be its own article. Crossroads -talk- 23:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
the proposal is that this article be about breast binding for non-gender-identity related reasons, while the transgender-affirming practice as done by some trans men and non-binary people would then be its own article." Correct. [A] The title of this article (Breast binding) remains with its material about historical, cultural, religious, medical, and in fashion binding of female breasts; [B] material about transgender/non-binary affirming "chest binding" becomes a transgender-related article (e.g. Transgender and non-binary chest binding). Cosplay, crossplay, and costuming have their own articles and can be referred to with a hatnote. Pyxis Solitary (yak yak). Ol' homo. 18:39, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Opened this page to be a little shocked that this article is categorized under "violence against women" on the sidebar instead of the transgender sidebar - is this appropriate? I realize that the article cites one occurrence where this did result in violence against women, but by and large this seems to not be the case and the implication of the sidebar seems to tip into WP:FRINGE about transgender men being mutilated women - see the article on Abigail Shrier's book Irreversible Damage in which she frames all FTM transition as social contagion and a symptom of a misogynistic society.
I would just remove and edit the sidebar myself, but I realize that wholesale removal of something like this can provoke strong emotions, so I thought I would check in about why this choice has been made before I changed it. Computer-ergonomics ( talk) 14:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)