I've read from several sources that in issue 676 of Batman, Grant Morrison is killing of Bruce Wayne and that it will be related to the Final Crisis storyline. Is there some reason this is not discussed in the article? Annoyed with fanboys ( talk) 05:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Either I didn't notice this before or someone tampered with the Finger quote. It reads "I had an idea..." as if he had said this when Finger was actually quoting what Kane had said to him. This needs to be corrected.
Also, in my absence, I have learned a little about this Mr. Brubaker and would like to make a formal complaint to have his comments stricken from the page. My original argument against individuals currently working in the comic book field making snide remarks about their predecessors, have only been strengthened by what I have seen of the output spewed by these modern day "creators". When some of these individuals say they don't want to be "Fingered" (without any knowledge of the situation) or refer to Jack Kirby as "Jack the hack" or say that Kirby "...wasn't sh*t" it is absolutely disrespectful, sleazy and contributes nothing. For them to invoke Mr.Finger's name so that these spoiled, overly-paid individuals can get their own way, shouldn't be given a wiff of credibility by anyone who's trying to be informative instead of re-gurgitating gossip. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a given that as far as corporate comics are concerned, a new genearation of writers and artists will find themselves working on a concept. It is also a given that they will feel that what they produce is going to be better than that of their predecessors. What they produce can be judged and should be judged on its own merits. What is reprehensible is how some of the current crop of writers and artists view their predecessors and how some of them invoke their predecessors' names so that they may obtain some sort of advantage for themselves. To say "I don't want to be Fingered!" shows their ignorance. If they had worked back then and they walked up to a Bob Kane or an Al Capp and said something like that, they would have been out of a job and they know that, assuming they have any knowledge of comics history to begin with! They are being well-paid for material that may be "shocking" but in the grand scheme of things, looks pretty ephemeral to me and will be forgotten in ten years.
Invoking a Bill Finger or a Vinnie Colletta's name so these modern-day "idols" can do ridiculous things like Bane or giving Batman a spy sattelite, all the while screaming for "credit" on an assembly line just strikes me as absurd. By contrast, there is a series of ads on television by a talented animator who is apparently influenced by anime and\or the work of Josh Agle. But we don't see this individual's name anywhere in the commercial nor do we hear any whining about "credit".
We shouldn't give current comic book producers "credibility" by including their lame comments on an encyclopedic page that is supposed to provide information. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I fail to understand why you don't get it. These modern day "wonders" use all sorts of sleazy jargon so they can get what they want. Instead of coming up with cogent arguments to negotiate deals, they will invoke previous creators as a means of obtaining what they want. It's immature and I question how does it provide information? It only perpetuates despicable stereotypes and misinformation about previous creators that we are contributing to. Saying he was "Fingered" doesn't say Bill Finger was a great writer, it suggests that he was robbed or stupid. He was neither and that is a fact. How one views a fact can be affected by one's opinion but a fact is a fact: It simply wasn't his comic strip. The same with Vince Colletta. These modern day "wonders" say they don't want anybody to do a "Vinnie Colletta" on their work. It doesn't say that he was a fast and reliable inker. It suggests that Colletta was a lousy one. He wasn't, if he had been, he wouldn't have gotten steady work. The objective of Wikipedia is supposed to be about providing information, not about spreading gossip or insider trash talking. If one wants to put "Fingered" or "do a Vinnie Colletta" on their own blog that is fine,but this is supposed to be about providing sincere well-researched, neutral information. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The idea of becoming an editor intrigues me as I have a huge library and have known a few people(friends of friends) who started out as assistants within the industry (but decided to go into other fields). However, if it demands a huge amount of time...Please leave info on my talk page or leave direction markers, thank you. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
IF one has the information, all of the information, about how "credit" is dispensed in the comic book field; and one also has sufficient knowledge to compare said field with the other areas of commercial art (where "credit" is the least of their concerns) and one is willing to write an article about these issues, then by all means, an individual should feel free to do so. It would clear up a lot for some people, including some of the people working in the comic book field! In my opinion (that nasty word again) some of these "professionals" know full well about these issues but choose to act like they don't, which relates to my comment about "immaturity".
As for why the "Fingered" comment doesn't have to do with Bill's being a great writer? That is my point. As a fan of Finger, it always irritated me that most articles or books I've read about him would start "Poor, Bill he never got this or that..." He and David Vern Reed are my two favorite Batman writers of all time and I find it disrespectful for Finger in particular to be spoken of in these terms, given the working relationship he had with Kane and the fact that it was Kane who gave Bill his start in the industry. My opinion. But for some "professionals" in the industry to invoke Finger's name, not in praise of his being a great writer but to achieve a personal gain just reveals they are not only being disingenuous in their arguments but act in a very unprofessional manner. For Wikipedia contributers to regurgitate their sleazy tactics as a means of providing information merely perpetuates a distorted picture of who Bill Finger was. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 17:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, the issue of whether or not Finger "got ripped off" as you claim is a false one. I will assume you are new to this. In the Kane quotation, he tells you what the situation was regarding writers back then. Also I highly recommend THE COMICS BEFORE 1945 and ...SINCE 1945 by Brian Walker in which he describes the relationship of artists and the assistants they hire. Mr. Walker discusses it as it relates to comics but the "Studio Tradition" is a lo-ong one that may even date to pre-historic times. The most notable ones began with the "guild" system of the Middle Ages. In short, the artist was the boss of his or her studio and they gave out "credit" whenever and where-ever they wanted. The Kane\Finger relationship was an employer\employee relationship, not a partnership and those who are familiar with the issue understand this.(a simple example: Pick up any newspaper and see whose name is on any random comic strip. If the creator is still alive, there is only one name, not any of the assistants he or she might have hired. Or go to a clothing store and pick up an article of clothing. It will say "Tommy Hillfinger" or "Jaclyn Smith", not any of the many employees they have hired.) The tradition of consitently giving out "credit" in comic books began with editor Bill Gaines (who only credited artists) and editor Stan Lee (who as a writer\editor of Timely\Atlas, could give out credit to the writer, who, not-so-coincidentally, was usually himself. I don't know if he gave out bylines to other writers besides himself at Timely\Atlas, does anyone else know?
The "individuals" who ignore this or use this information in negotiating deals for themselves are at best, using Finger's or Colletta's name for their own gain. I wouldn't want my name used like that and If he were here, Finger wouldn't care for it either, hence my objection to the inclusion of it on an encyclopedic page. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 19:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Finger wrote for Quality, Fawcett and Timely, and in the manner of the day did not get credit for the great bulk of that; All-American Pubs. seems to have been better about it.
This quote has a place in Bill Finger but not in Batman since (and to address 84.92.54.229's point) the facts of the credit issue are indeed discussed here — in depth, with quotes from direct eyewitness and participants, all placed in historical context. The Brubaker quote is outside of that discussion of historical fact, and is simply opinion about Finger (and not Batman specifically) coming from someone who did not know the participants, was not present in the industry during the events, and does not add anything to the facts other than some "Monday morning quarterback" opinion. A knowledgeable opinion by someone who was there would have encyclopedic weight.
I'm not sure that some snarky, latter-day comment by one person, who claims that a term is widespread without any supporting evidence in print, for example, has any encyclopedic weight. Wikipedia works on compromise and consensus, so I would agree with my colleague Bernard ferrell that this latter-day opinion quote is off-topic in Batman, and I suggest the compromise that it continue on in Bill Finger, where it least it refers directly to the topic. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 14:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Removing it removes the context for those discussing it. New participants in the discussion need to know what is or isn't being removed before they can venture a valid opinion. Old participants can misremember or misstate things. It has to be there so we know exactly what we are debating. Also, If it is agreed to remove it later, it can easily be removed... but, if it is agreed to keep it, someone has to go back and find it. Duggy 1138 ( talk) 17:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The Brubaker quote adds nothing. I like Brubaker a lot, but he wasn't there. He doesn't cite any sources. Even if he did, the quote is not useful. The quote is not about Batman. The article is about Batman.
If arguing to remove something when consensus says keep it, leave it in during discussion. When arguing to keep something when consensus says dump it, leave it out until you can make your case for inclusion, especially when one argument against inclusion is its questionable relevance. An extreme example: Let's say that same quote was in Bugs Bunny's article. Keep it out until you can persuade others to see its importance and relevance. Don't clutter the article when anybody who wants to see it in context can look back at its last appearance in the edit history. Doczilla RAWR! 01:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
"how can Brubaker be perceived as speaking for DC Comics as a whole?"
He clearly isn't, but he is clearly commenting on the situation at DC. Specifically, that editors are aware that Finger was ripped off.
Duggy 1138 (
talk) 10:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Alientraveller, please take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/Assessment#Importance_scale. The comics project has created their own importance scale, different from the standard scale of whether the topic is important to an encyclopedia as a whole.
I'll change it back soon. GDallimore ( Talk) 11:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is a top level article for the comics project. The term project used at the assessment page refers to the Wikipedia project, not the comics project, as can be seen in the text preceding the scale which states "The criteria used for rating article importance are not meant to be an absolute or canonical view of how significant the topic is. Rather, they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic" (my emphasis). 84.92.54.229 ( talk) 13:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
"how can Brubaker be perceived as speaking for DC Comics as a whole?" He clearly isn't, but he is clearly commenting on the situation at DC. Specifically, that editors are aware that Finger was ripped off. Duggy 1138
As Mr.Jaws used to say "I gotcha!", I suspected there was a bias here. I tried to show through the examples I gave, (which were obviously overlooked) is that Finger wasn't "ripped off" as you say. This is a half-truth perpetuated by writers who have a biased opinion but it really doesn't hold up when viewed in the context of other fields, especially other forms of commercial art; nor in comic strips\books for that era. The giving of "credit" is a courtesy, not a requirement or mandate unless otherwise specified by company policy.
Contemporary companies give "credit" but unbeknownst to them, many of the artists they commission to work on a project have assistants as well. Now, in 2008. Are they being "ripped off"? Is anyone who makes a suggestion or contribution to their employer without getting "credit" or compensation being "ripped off"? This isn't SOAP it's just simply common sense. Bernard ferrell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.80.65.234 ( talk) 16:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote deals specifically with comic-strip artists but the Studio System is still the same:
Dailies are typically completed six weeks before publication date...although schedules vary from artist to artist. The basic steps involved in creating each daily installment are writing, editing, pencilling inking, and lettering. The majority of cartoonists do all of these chores themselves when they are first getting started. As a feature begins to generate additional income, the creator might choose to hire assistants to perform one or more of these tasks. Most cartoonists have some form of help. -BRIAN WALKER, The COMICS SINCE 1945, P. 12- HARRY N. ABRAMS INC. 2002
Bob Kane had made his deal with DC Comics on his own, and Finger was merely Kane's employee. DC would eventually hire Finger to write scripts for Kane and other artists, but for most of his life he worked on Batman without credit. -LES DANIELS, BATMAN THE COMPLETE HISTORY, P.31- CHRONICLE BOOKS 1999
And while we can debate whether or not Kane was right to deny Finger a byline (according to Kane, Bill never asked for one), there is no question that Kane had THE right, both as a studio owner and as Finger's employer. That's not SOAP, as you call it, nor "opinion" but a simple fact.
As for whether or not Finger "deserves" credit. He's got it. Every time one of his stories is reprinted
his name is right there. What I don't think he "deserves" is a byline next to Mr.Kane's. It wasn't his "right"
because Kane negotiated that label with DC because it was his studio as it Mr.Daniels related in the above-mentioned quote.
Kane was the boss and he never gave Finger an equal partnership. What I also think he "deserves" are reprint rights
but I don't know if his heirs already receive them nor is it within my power to give them.
While we are on the subject, for those curious about the studio system I recommend ALTER EGO #75 which
has an interview with Golden Age artist Marvin Levy who worked in a number of art studios.
Another good book is the FAWCETT COMPANION which talks about
Fawcett's policy regarding in-house creators and talks about the Jack Binder Shop.
For a witty look at such a system there is also cartoonist PETER BAGGE's excellent
limited series SWEATSHOP that should be available at any good comic book store.
There is a Wiki page on "ghost writers" but it doesn't specifically deal with
the Studio System as it pertains to comic production or advertising.
Finally,as for the "Fingered" comment being listed on the Finger page, I vote against it. There is already sufficient information as to why Finger didn't get a byline with Kane.
As I said, the comment shouldn't even be given any legitimacy or hint of dignity. It's an insulting weapon that Brubaker (and others) use for their own gain. If "Fingered" is listed on Bill's page, should we include the mention of other"insider" jargon\insults about a creator's longevity (i.e. the sleazy attacks on Jack Kirby when he returned to Marvel in the mid-70s?) Or the attacks on H.G.Peter for remaining on WONDER WOMAN long after Mr. Moulton passed away? Should that be on Mr.Peter's page? I don't think they are helpful or informative. Bernard ferrell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.252.235 ( talk) 17:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
What I am saying is that Kane's "Created by Bob Kane" isn't "wrong". It's Kane's and he shrewdly negotiated it at a time when few people in comic BOOKS of the era chose to do so. To this day, Green Lantern doesn't carry a "Created by Mort Nodell" byline. Kane's heroes didn't work in comic books. He always admired the newspaper strip cartoonists and wanted to emulate them. That's it. People who go to a Wiki-site and look up "Batman" are probably interested in who was involved in the characters creation, namely, who worked with Kane to bring it into being. Official Disney Mickey Mouse info will always say "Created by Walt Disney". Those who go to the Wiki site will learn that Mr.Disney had help from his animation assistant, Ub Irwerks. That should be our goal, to inform and in effect, stay neutral. Not regurtitate "arguments" by those who are ill-informed or who may or may not have an agenda. Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 17:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, but this gets to the heart of what I am saying about the "Fingered" comment. It is anything but non-biased. It is using Finger's name for someone's else's agenda. They are implying that Finger was treated unfairly. By this reasoning, anyone who works for Tommy Hillfinger who doesn't have their name listed on a piece of his product is being treated unfairly? That is my bias, I respect the right of any studio owner and how they choose to run it, whether Kane or anyone else. Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 18:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Where do I start? You cannot pretend to speak for Wikipedians as a whole for the simple reason that anyone who lives in the "real world" clearly understands that at the end of the day, the word of "the boss" is the rule in any private company or studio. That is not being treated "unfairly" that is simply a fact. When Bill Finger was working for Kane, he understood he was not working for himself and wasn't even invited to join Kane in his negotiations with DC (please re-read the quote above from Mr.Daniels.) Assuming, like anyone else applying for a job, Finger discussed what he would be doing for Kane and whether or not he would get a byline, Finger had a choice to accept the job as offered, or continue doing whatever he was doing elsewhere. Once he accepted the job he accepted the "no byline" status. How is anyone being treated "unfairly" if they know ahead of time what to expect?
Including certain quotes over others is showing a bias and making a judgement. It isn't my place to say whether Kane was fair or unfair in the article and it shouldn't be Wiki's either. For this is supposed to be an encyclopedic page, not an editorial.I could very easily include quotes from management books on how to deal with troublesome employees to balance out Brubaker's "Fingered" comment. Or include the quote "Harvey Kurtzman forgot in whose house he was working" which is a similar but separate issue that points out how Bill Gaines chose to deal with what some would describe as a creative but rebellious individual. However, the problem for me is that I respect both Misters Kane and Finger and notice that Finger never expressed any anger towards Mr. Kane nor did Kane ever say that he had problems with Mr.Finger. In this respect, they both acted like professionals. The same cannot always be said about some of Finger's fans.
This is why I insist that we stay neutral. While some, so-called, professionals choose to insult Kane or Finger, whether directly or indirectly, with their oily comments; we should stay out of it. Finger, unfortunately, has a lot of negatives on his side and no one really points them out because they don't want to look like a "bad guy" but as it relates to Wikipedia, we should only provide information, not take a side, whether pro or con, through the manipulation of data; hence, their policy against fan-ism. Within the article,their is sufficient information that desribes why Finger didn't get a "Co-creator" byline. I would also add "...but he does get credit for his writing whenever his stories are re-printed". Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 16:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
You have not answered the general question: how is maintaining the "Fingered" comment a "neutral" point of view. The Robinson quote is borderline but I have never forcefully contested it because of his position on "creator rights". I just think he is wrong in this specific case. "Work for hire" is "work for hire" and he knows this. But Kane's "rebuttal" fully explains his position, which was (and still is) in step with many commercial art venues, including comic strips and some comic books (note: the so-called "credits" one sees in current comic books don't always include those assistants who might contribute a suggestion here or there.) I feel this is sufficient. Including Brubaker's sleazy comment, again, points to how he and his peers use a previous creator's name in an attempt at gaining an advantage for themselves, a practice that is actually looked down upon elsewhere, especially in the corporate world. The inclusion of this blatant insult directly toward Finger and indirectly toward Kane has no place on a "neutral" encyclopedic page. The exception to that would be an article devoted to slang but even that is pushing it. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 16:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
My "opinion" only relates to the despicible "Fingered" nonsense. To that I say: 1. They have no right to use Finger's name that way. In their mind, Kane or anyone else, wouldn't "finger" them. Well, they would have been unemployed if they had mouthed off to a Kane, or especially, to an Al Capp. With the attitude behind the comment, I doubt they would have survived (and in the case of Finger's Post-Kane Studio career) thrived in spite of the Great Depression. 2. They are very lucky to not only get paid a lot of money for their writing but also,to live in an age where virtually everyone who works on a comic book assembly line, gets "credit". They have no right to use Finger or any of their predecessor's names in such a disrespectful manner. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Per this revert, I would submit that refusing to add new information (and citable info at that) that isn't really trivial because of the observation that it seems to "change every few years" isn't a great defense. If the info changes, so does the entry. That's rather the way it works here. As it stands, the info added noting the Batman's annual return to the spot where his parents were killed has been a firmly established part of the character bio since the late 70's; it has in fact driven many of the stories. The date is important because it coincides with the creation of the Batman's apparent opposite number, Wrath (#2). - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Finger never, ever claimed he created Batman. The line should say, "Kane re-asserted his claims at having created the character..." As one who is familiar with "the controversy", the best way to inform you of what happened and why Kane wrote THE BOB KANE LETTER is to show it to you. I hearby submit...
The Source of The Contoversy: The Following are selections from Bill Schelly's nostalgic article about the Batmania Fanzine:
"During the 1960s the cover was ripped off this myth...(That Kane did everything on Batman by himself-BF)and it became known that a whole platoon of writers and artists had toiled to produce those memorable tales, and no one had done more for the character of Batman than scripter Bill Finger. Therefore whenFinger joined in a panel discussion at the 1965 New York Comic Con, fans learned (most for the first time) how he had contributed."
"He (Finger) recalled to eager fans how he had received a phone call from Bob Kane announcing that he'd just drawn a new costumed hero called "The Bat-Man" and asking him to come over right away to help Kane further develop the character. Finger said he had come up with the name "Gotham City" and many other aspects of the strip...fans who attended this early comic con were fortunate, indeed, for Bill Finger didn't attend many fan gatherings."
"Finger's statements at this convention and in discussions with key fans like Tom Fagan, led fandom co-founder Jerry Bails to write a piece called "If the Truth Be Known, or, A FINGER IN EVERY PLOT!" Though it saw print in CAPA-ALPHA #12 SEPTEMBER 1965, it deserves summarizing here, because of its soon-to-come fallout in BATMANIA."
A FINGER IN EVERY PLOT began discussing Bill's Greewich Village studio and his numerous notes. One suchscrap of paper revealed that he had been playing with a list of names for "The Greatest Character Find of 1940" which we know would eventually be Robin. From Steranko we know that Kane and Robinson had already sketched and named the sidekick. What is noteworthy is that one of the names was WILDCAT. Mr. Schelly continued...
"The K-a article was probably the first anywhere to publicly state that "Bill is the man who first put words in the mouth of the Guardian of Gotham. By Finger's account, Jerry (Bails) went on,"The cowl and cape, the utility belt, and gauntlet, were all Bill's contribution to the dialogue that gave rise to the final form of Batman's famous costume"--along with the Joker and "all the other principals and supporting characters of the early strip; Robin, of course, but also Commissioner Gordon (who appeared in the first Batman story), Alfred, the Penguin, and the Catwoman, as well as the many unusual and sympathetic characters that made the early Batman so popular."
"When fans clamor for a return to the Days of Old when Batman was a mystery man who battled the underworld in action-packed human-interest yarns,"Jerry (Bails) said in conclusion, "they are clamoring-if truth be known- for the return of the Batman as created by Bill Finger!"
"This provocative article, which in retrospect seems almost to over-reach in places to make its point (e.g., artist Jerry Robinson is a third comics professional who has claimed to have created The Joker),sparked a fiery response from none other than Bob Kane himself."
Mr.Schelly is referring to THE BOB KANE LETTER
"Certainly, in the years that followed, Kane became more generous in his recognition of Finger's contribution than he was in this early letter. Therefore, the letter he wrote to Batmania in 1965 is reprinted here not to as an attempt to stir up an old controversy, especially in the light of his (then-BF) recent passing, but as a fascinating artifact of the time."
Afterword: Concerning "A Finger In Every Plot", to say that it "...seems almost to over-reach in places..." is putting it mildly, to say the least, (in fact, I even challenge Mr. Schelly's statement that "no one did more than Finger..." for the simple reason that once Bill started working for DC and other media, he was only sporadically involved with Batman, while on the other hand, Kane was invoved in one way or another even up until his passing.) But "A Finger..." claimed that Bill created EVERYTHING and stops just short of saying he also discovered Penicillin!
I included these selections, mostly for the benefit of Wiki supervisors but also for young fans who may have heard or read several contradictory stories. As later scholars have proven, by looking at other sources besides comic books, that although Finger's involvement was pivotal, he certainly didn't create EVERYTHING in the Batman strip while Kane merely picked his nose! (Alfred, who was created by the writers of the first movie serial, is just one such example).
Nor did Bill ever claim he created BAtman, not in Steranko nor at that memorable comic book convention; indeed, in Steranko's "History..." he was very specific about some of his contributions, both for Batman and other series. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 19:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I read the article and it came up as really curious that after the article's tone goes to state that the camp phase of the character ended in the 1980's, then goes off to portray the 1960's version of the car in the section "Equipment". Furthermore, when it was added to serve as an illustration of the vehicle the article was referring to with the machine guns, it was taken down with the comment "we cannot have 2 pictures for the same section". First off, who says we can't? and second, why stick with the 60's car instead of any of the other sources or iterations the car has gone through? -we could stay with any, or all, better yet, we should settle to saty with the most current
I've read from several sources that in issue 676 of Batman, Grant Morrison is killing of Bruce Wayne and that it will be related to the Final Crisis storyline. Is there some reason this is not discussed in the article? Annoyed with fanboys ( talk) 05:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Either I didn't notice this before or someone tampered with the Finger quote. It reads "I had an idea..." as if he had said this when Finger was actually quoting what Kane had said to him. This needs to be corrected.
Also, in my absence, I have learned a little about this Mr. Brubaker and would like to make a formal complaint to have his comments stricken from the page. My original argument against individuals currently working in the comic book field making snide remarks about their predecessors, have only been strengthened by what I have seen of the output spewed by these modern day "creators". When some of these individuals say they don't want to be "Fingered" (without any knowledge of the situation) or refer to Jack Kirby as "Jack the hack" or say that Kirby "...wasn't sh*t" it is absolutely disrespectful, sleazy and contributes nothing. For them to invoke Mr.Finger's name so that these spoiled, overly-paid individuals can get their own way, shouldn't be given a wiff of credibility by anyone who's trying to be informative instead of re-gurgitating gossip. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
It's a given that as far as corporate comics are concerned, a new genearation of writers and artists will find themselves working on a concept. It is also a given that they will feel that what they produce is going to be better than that of their predecessors. What they produce can be judged and should be judged on its own merits. What is reprehensible is how some of the current crop of writers and artists view their predecessors and how some of them invoke their predecessors' names so that they may obtain some sort of advantage for themselves. To say "I don't want to be Fingered!" shows their ignorance. If they had worked back then and they walked up to a Bob Kane or an Al Capp and said something like that, they would have been out of a job and they know that, assuming they have any knowledge of comics history to begin with! They are being well-paid for material that may be "shocking" but in the grand scheme of things, looks pretty ephemeral to me and will be forgotten in ten years.
Invoking a Bill Finger or a Vinnie Colletta's name so these modern-day "idols" can do ridiculous things like Bane or giving Batman a spy sattelite, all the while screaming for "credit" on an assembly line just strikes me as absurd. By contrast, there is a series of ads on television by a talented animator who is apparently influenced by anime and\or the work of Josh Agle. But we don't see this individual's name anywhere in the commercial nor do we hear any whining about "credit".
We shouldn't give current comic book producers "credibility" by including their lame comments on an encyclopedic page that is supposed to provide information. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I fail to understand why you don't get it. These modern day "wonders" use all sorts of sleazy jargon so they can get what they want. Instead of coming up with cogent arguments to negotiate deals, they will invoke previous creators as a means of obtaining what they want. It's immature and I question how does it provide information? It only perpetuates despicable stereotypes and misinformation about previous creators that we are contributing to. Saying he was "Fingered" doesn't say Bill Finger was a great writer, it suggests that he was robbed or stupid. He was neither and that is a fact. How one views a fact can be affected by one's opinion but a fact is a fact: It simply wasn't his comic strip. The same with Vince Colletta. These modern day "wonders" say they don't want anybody to do a "Vinnie Colletta" on their work. It doesn't say that he was a fast and reliable inker. It suggests that Colletta was a lousy one. He wasn't, if he had been, he wouldn't have gotten steady work. The objective of Wikipedia is supposed to be about providing information, not about spreading gossip or insider trash talking. If one wants to put "Fingered" or "do a Vinnie Colletta" on their own blog that is fine,but this is supposed to be about providing sincere well-researched, neutral information. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The idea of becoming an editor intrigues me as I have a huge library and have known a few people(friends of friends) who started out as assistants within the industry (but decided to go into other fields). However, if it demands a huge amount of time...Please leave info on my talk page or leave direction markers, thank you. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
IF one has the information, all of the information, about how "credit" is dispensed in the comic book field; and one also has sufficient knowledge to compare said field with the other areas of commercial art (where "credit" is the least of their concerns) and one is willing to write an article about these issues, then by all means, an individual should feel free to do so. It would clear up a lot for some people, including some of the people working in the comic book field! In my opinion (that nasty word again) some of these "professionals" know full well about these issues but choose to act like they don't, which relates to my comment about "immaturity".
As for why the "Fingered" comment doesn't have to do with Bill's being a great writer? That is my point. As a fan of Finger, it always irritated me that most articles or books I've read about him would start "Poor, Bill he never got this or that..." He and David Vern Reed are my two favorite Batman writers of all time and I find it disrespectful for Finger in particular to be spoken of in these terms, given the working relationship he had with Kane and the fact that it was Kane who gave Bill his start in the industry. My opinion. But for some "professionals" in the industry to invoke Finger's name, not in praise of his being a great writer but to achieve a personal gain just reveals they are not only being disingenuous in their arguments but act in a very unprofessional manner. For Wikipedia contributers to regurgitate their sleazy tactics as a means of providing information merely perpetuates a distorted picture of who Bill Finger was. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 17:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect, the issue of whether or not Finger "got ripped off" as you claim is a false one. I will assume you are new to this. In the Kane quotation, he tells you what the situation was regarding writers back then. Also I highly recommend THE COMICS BEFORE 1945 and ...SINCE 1945 by Brian Walker in which he describes the relationship of artists and the assistants they hire. Mr. Walker discusses it as it relates to comics but the "Studio Tradition" is a lo-ong one that may even date to pre-historic times. The most notable ones began with the "guild" system of the Middle Ages. In short, the artist was the boss of his or her studio and they gave out "credit" whenever and where-ever they wanted. The Kane\Finger relationship was an employer\employee relationship, not a partnership and those who are familiar with the issue understand this.(a simple example: Pick up any newspaper and see whose name is on any random comic strip. If the creator is still alive, there is only one name, not any of the assistants he or she might have hired. Or go to a clothing store and pick up an article of clothing. It will say "Tommy Hillfinger" or "Jaclyn Smith", not any of the many employees they have hired.) The tradition of consitently giving out "credit" in comic books began with editor Bill Gaines (who only credited artists) and editor Stan Lee (who as a writer\editor of Timely\Atlas, could give out credit to the writer, who, not-so-coincidentally, was usually himself. I don't know if he gave out bylines to other writers besides himself at Timely\Atlas, does anyone else know?
The "individuals" who ignore this or use this information in negotiating deals for themselves are at best, using Finger's or Colletta's name for their own gain. I wouldn't want my name used like that and If he were here, Finger wouldn't care for it either, hence my objection to the inclusion of it on an encyclopedic page. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 19:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Finger wrote for Quality, Fawcett and Timely, and in the manner of the day did not get credit for the great bulk of that; All-American Pubs. seems to have been better about it.
This quote has a place in Bill Finger but not in Batman since (and to address 84.92.54.229's point) the facts of the credit issue are indeed discussed here — in depth, with quotes from direct eyewitness and participants, all placed in historical context. The Brubaker quote is outside of that discussion of historical fact, and is simply opinion about Finger (and not Batman specifically) coming from someone who did not know the participants, was not present in the industry during the events, and does not add anything to the facts other than some "Monday morning quarterback" opinion. A knowledgeable opinion by someone who was there would have encyclopedic weight.
I'm not sure that some snarky, latter-day comment by one person, who claims that a term is widespread without any supporting evidence in print, for example, has any encyclopedic weight. Wikipedia works on compromise and consensus, so I would agree with my colleague Bernard ferrell that this latter-day opinion quote is off-topic in Batman, and I suggest the compromise that it continue on in Bill Finger, where it least it refers directly to the topic. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 14:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Removing it removes the context for those discussing it. New participants in the discussion need to know what is or isn't being removed before they can venture a valid opinion. Old participants can misremember or misstate things. It has to be there so we know exactly what we are debating. Also, If it is agreed to remove it later, it can easily be removed... but, if it is agreed to keep it, someone has to go back and find it. Duggy 1138 ( talk) 17:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The Brubaker quote adds nothing. I like Brubaker a lot, but he wasn't there. He doesn't cite any sources. Even if he did, the quote is not useful. The quote is not about Batman. The article is about Batman.
If arguing to remove something when consensus says keep it, leave it in during discussion. When arguing to keep something when consensus says dump it, leave it out until you can make your case for inclusion, especially when one argument against inclusion is its questionable relevance. An extreme example: Let's say that same quote was in Bugs Bunny's article. Keep it out until you can persuade others to see its importance and relevance. Don't clutter the article when anybody who wants to see it in context can look back at its last appearance in the edit history. Doczilla RAWR! 01:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
"how can Brubaker be perceived as speaking for DC Comics as a whole?"
He clearly isn't, but he is clearly commenting on the situation at DC. Specifically, that editors are aware that Finger was ripped off.
Duggy 1138 (
talk) 10:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Alientraveller, please take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Comics/Assessment#Importance_scale. The comics project has created their own importance scale, different from the standard scale of whether the topic is important to an encyclopedia as a whole.
I'll change it back soon. GDallimore ( Talk) 11:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is a top level article for the comics project. The term project used at the assessment page refers to the Wikipedia project, not the comics project, as can be seen in the text preceding the scale which states "The criteria used for rating article importance are not meant to be an absolute or canonical view of how significant the topic is. Rather, they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic" (my emphasis). 84.92.54.229 ( talk) 13:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
"how can Brubaker be perceived as speaking for DC Comics as a whole?" He clearly isn't, but he is clearly commenting on the situation at DC. Specifically, that editors are aware that Finger was ripped off. Duggy 1138
As Mr.Jaws used to say "I gotcha!", I suspected there was a bias here. I tried to show through the examples I gave, (which were obviously overlooked) is that Finger wasn't "ripped off" as you say. This is a half-truth perpetuated by writers who have a biased opinion but it really doesn't hold up when viewed in the context of other fields, especially other forms of commercial art; nor in comic strips\books for that era. The giving of "credit" is a courtesy, not a requirement or mandate unless otherwise specified by company policy.
Contemporary companies give "credit" but unbeknownst to them, many of the artists they commission to work on a project have assistants as well. Now, in 2008. Are they being "ripped off"? Is anyone who makes a suggestion or contribution to their employer without getting "credit" or compensation being "ripped off"? This isn't SOAP it's just simply common sense. Bernard ferrell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.80.65.234 ( talk) 16:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The following quote deals specifically with comic-strip artists but the Studio System is still the same:
Dailies are typically completed six weeks before publication date...although schedules vary from artist to artist. The basic steps involved in creating each daily installment are writing, editing, pencilling inking, and lettering. The majority of cartoonists do all of these chores themselves when they are first getting started. As a feature begins to generate additional income, the creator might choose to hire assistants to perform one or more of these tasks. Most cartoonists have some form of help. -BRIAN WALKER, The COMICS SINCE 1945, P. 12- HARRY N. ABRAMS INC. 2002
Bob Kane had made his deal with DC Comics on his own, and Finger was merely Kane's employee. DC would eventually hire Finger to write scripts for Kane and other artists, but for most of his life he worked on Batman without credit. -LES DANIELS, BATMAN THE COMPLETE HISTORY, P.31- CHRONICLE BOOKS 1999
And while we can debate whether or not Kane was right to deny Finger a byline (according to Kane, Bill never asked for one), there is no question that Kane had THE right, both as a studio owner and as Finger's employer. That's not SOAP, as you call it, nor "opinion" but a simple fact.
As for whether or not Finger "deserves" credit. He's got it. Every time one of his stories is reprinted
his name is right there. What I don't think he "deserves" is a byline next to Mr.Kane's. It wasn't his "right"
because Kane negotiated that label with DC because it was his studio as it Mr.Daniels related in the above-mentioned quote.
Kane was the boss and he never gave Finger an equal partnership. What I also think he "deserves" are reprint rights
but I don't know if his heirs already receive them nor is it within my power to give them.
While we are on the subject, for those curious about the studio system I recommend ALTER EGO #75 which
has an interview with Golden Age artist Marvin Levy who worked in a number of art studios.
Another good book is the FAWCETT COMPANION which talks about
Fawcett's policy regarding in-house creators and talks about the Jack Binder Shop.
For a witty look at such a system there is also cartoonist PETER BAGGE's excellent
limited series SWEATSHOP that should be available at any good comic book store.
There is a Wiki page on "ghost writers" but it doesn't specifically deal with
the Studio System as it pertains to comic production or advertising.
Finally,as for the "Fingered" comment being listed on the Finger page, I vote against it. There is already sufficient information as to why Finger didn't get a byline with Kane.
As I said, the comment shouldn't even be given any legitimacy or hint of dignity. It's an insulting weapon that Brubaker (and others) use for their own gain. If "Fingered" is listed on Bill's page, should we include the mention of other"insider" jargon\insults about a creator's longevity (i.e. the sleazy attacks on Jack Kirby when he returned to Marvel in the mid-70s?) Or the attacks on H.G.Peter for remaining on WONDER WOMAN long after Mr. Moulton passed away? Should that be on Mr.Peter's page? I don't think they are helpful or informative. Bernard ferrell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.252.235 ( talk) 17:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
What I am saying is that Kane's "Created by Bob Kane" isn't "wrong". It's Kane's and he shrewdly negotiated it at a time when few people in comic BOOKS of the era chose to do so. To this day, Green Lantern doesn't carry a "Created by Mort Nodell" byline. Kane's heroes didn't work in comic books. He always admired the newspaper strip cartoonists and wanted to emulate them. That's it. People who go to a Wiki-site and look up "Batman" are probably interested in who was involved in the characters creation, namely, who worked with Kane to bring it into being. Official Disney Mickey Mouse info will always say "Created by Walt Disney". Those who go to the Wiki site will learn that Mr.Disney had help from his animation assistant, Ub Irwerks. That should be our goal, to inform and in effect, stay neutral. Not regurtitate "arguments" by those who are ill-informed or who may or may not have an agenda. Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 17:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, but this gets to the heart of what I am saying about the "Fingered" comment. It is anything but non-biased. It is using Finger's name for someone's else's agenda. They are implying that Finger was treated unfairly. By this reasoning, anyone who works for Tommy Hillfinger who doesn't have their name listed on a piece of his product is being treated unfairly? That is my bias, I respect the right of any studio owner and how they choose to run it, whether Kane or anyone else. Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 18:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Where do I start? You cannot pretend to speak for Wikipedians as a whole for the simple reason that anyone who lives in the "real world" clearly understands that at the end of the day, the word of "the boss" is the rule in any private company or studio. That is not being treated "unfairly" that is simply a fact. When Bill Finger was working for Kane, he understood he was not working for himself and wasn't even invited to join Kane in his negotiations with DC (please re-read the quote above from Mr.Daniels.) Assuming, like anyone else applying for a job, Finger discussed what he would be doing for Kane and whether or not he would get a byline, Finger had a choice to accept the job as offered, or continue doing whatever he was doing elsewhere. Once he accepted the job he accepted the "no byline" status. How is anyone being treated "unfairly" if they know ahead of time what to expect?
Including certain quotes over others is showing a bias and making a judgement. It isn't my place to say whether Kane was fair or unfair in the article and it shouldn't be Wiki's either. For this is supposed to be an encyclopedic page, not an editorial.I could very easily include quotes from management books on how to deal with troublesome employees to balance out Brubaker's "Fingered" comment. Or include the quote "Harvey Kurtzman forgot in whose house he was working" which is a similar but separate issue that points out how Bill Gaines chose to deal with what some would describe as a creative but rebellious individual. However, the problem for me is that I respect both Misters Kane and Finger and notice that Finger never expressed any anger towards Mr. Kane nor did Kane ever say that he had problems with Mr.Finger. In this respect, they both acted like professionals. The same cannot always be said about some of Finger's fans.
This is why I insist that we stay neutral. While some, so-called, professionals choose to insult Kane or Finger, whether directly or indirectly, with their oily comments; we should stay out of it. Finger, unfortunately, has a lot of negatives on his side and no one really points them out because they don't want to look like a "bad guy" but as it relates to Wikipedia, we should only provide information, not take a side, whether pro or con, through the manipulation of data; hence, their policy against fan-ism. Within the article,their is sufficient information that desribes why Finger didn't get a "Co-creator" byline. I would also add "...but he does get credit for his writing whenever his stories are re-printed". Bernard ferrell —Preceding comment was added at 16:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
You have not answered the general question: how is maintaining the "Fingered" comment a "neutral" point of view. The Robinson quote is borderline but I have never forcefully contested it because of his position on "creator rights". I just think he is wrong in this specific case. "Work for hire" is "work for hire" and he knows this. But Kane's "rebuttal" fully explains his position, which was (and still is) in step with many commercial art venues, including comic strips and some comic books (note: the so-called "credits" one sees in current comic books don't always include those assistants who might contribute a suggestion here or there.) I feel this is sufficient. Including Brubaker's sleazy comment, again, points to how he and his peers use a previous creator's name in an attempt at gaining an advantage for themselves, a practice that is actually looked down upon elsewhere, especially in the corporate world. The inclusion of this blatant insult directly toward Finger and indirectly toward Kane has no place on a "neutral" encyclopedic page. The exception to that would be an article devoted to slang but even that is pushing it. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 16:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
My "opinion" only relates to the despicible "Fingered" nonsense. To that I say: 1. They have no right to use Finger's name that way. In their mind, Kane or anyone else, wouldn't "finger" them. Well, they would have been unemployed if they had mouthed off to a Kane, or especially, to an Al Capp. With the attitude behind the comment, I doubt they would have survived (and in the case of Finger's Post-Kane Studio career) thrived in spite of the Great Depression. 2. They are very lucky to not only get paid a lot of money for their writing but also,to live in an age where virtually everyone who works on a comic book assembly line, gets "credit". They have no right to use Finger or any of their predecessor's names in such a disrespectful manner. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 18:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Per this revert, I would submit that refusing to add new information (and citable info at that) that isn't really trivial because of the observation that it seems to "change every few years" isn't a great defense. If the info changes, so does the entry. That's rather the way it works here. As it stands, the info added noting the Batman's annual return to the spot where his parents were killed has been a firmly established part of the character bio since the late 70's; it has in fact driven many of the stories. The date is important because it coincides with the creation of the Batman's apparent opposite number, Wrath (#2). - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Finger never, ever claimed he created Batman. The line should say, "Kane re-asserted his claims at having created the character..." As one who is familiar with "the controversy", the best way to inform you of what happened and why Kane wrote THE BOB KANE LETTER is to show it to you. I hearby submit...
The Source of The Contoversy: The Following are selections from Bill Schelly's nostalgic article about the Batmania Fanzine:
"During the 1960s the cover was ripped off this myth...(That Kane did everything on Batman by himself-BF)and it became known that a whole platoon of writers and artists had toiled to produce those memorable tales, and no one had done more for the character of Batman than scripter Bill Finger. Therefore whenFinger joined in a panel discussion at the 1965 New York Comic Con, fans learned (most for the first time) how he had contributed."
"He (Finger) recalled to eager fans how he had received a phone call from Bob Kane announcing that he'd just drawn a new costumed hero called "The Bat-Man" and asking him to come over right away to help Kane further develop the character. Finger said he had come up with the name "Gotham City" and many other aspects of the strip...fans who attended this early comic con were fortunate, indeed, for Bill Finger didn't attend many fan gatherings."
"Finger's statements at this convention and in discussions with key fans like Tom Fagan, led fandom co-founder Jerry Bails to write a piece called "If the Truth Be Known, or, A FINGER IN EVERY PLOT!" Though it saw print in CAPA-ALPHA #12 SEPTEMBER 1965, it deserves summarizing here, because of its soon-to-come fallout in BATMANIA."
A FINGER IN EVERY PLOT began discussing Bill's Greewich Village studio and his numerous notes. One suchscrap of paper revealed that he had been playing with a list of names for "The Greatest Character Find of 1940" which we know would eventually be Robin. From Steranko we know that Kane and Robinson had already sketched and named the sidekick. What is noteworthy is that one of the names was WILDCAT. Mr. Schelly continued...
"The K-a article was probably the first anywhere to publicly state that "Bill is the man who first put words in the mouth of the Guardian of Gotham. By Finger's account, Jerry (Bails) went on,"The cowl and cape, the utility belt, and gauntlet, were all Bill's contribution to the dialogue that gave rise to the final form of Batman's famous costume"--along with the Joker and "all the other principals and supporting characters of the early strip; Robin, of course, but also Commissioner Gordon (who appeared in the first Batman story), Alfred, the Penguin, and the Catwoman, as well as the many unusual and sympathetic characters that made the early Batman so popular."
"When fans clamor for a return to the Days of Old when Batman was a mystery man who battled the underworld in action-packed human-interest yarns,"Jerry (Bails) said in conclusion, "they are clamoring-if truth be known- for the return of the Batman as created by Bill Finger!"
"This provocative article, which in retrospect seems almost to over-reach in places to make its point (e.g., artist Jerry Robinson is a third comics professional who has claimed to have created The Joker),sparked a fiery response from none other than Bob Kane himself."
Mr.Schelly is referring to THE BOB KANE LETTER
"Certainly, in the years that followed, Kane became more generous in his recognition of Finger's contribution than he was in this early letter. Therefore, the letter he wrote to Batmania in 1965 is reprinted here not to as an attempt to stir up an old controversy, especially in the light of his (then-BF) recent passing, but as a fascinating artifact of the time."
Afterword: Concerning "A Finger In Every Plot", to say that it "...seems almost to over-reach in places..." is putting it mildly, to say the least, (in fact, I even challenge Mr. Schelly's statement that "no one did more than Finger..." for the simple reason that once Bill started working for DC and other media, he was only sporadically involved with Batman, while on the other hand, Kane was invoved in one way or another even up until his passing.) But "A Finger..." claimed that Bill created EVERYTHING and stops just short of saying he also discovered Penicillin!
I included these selections, mostly for the benefit of Wiki supervisors but also for young fans who may have heard or read several contradictory stories. As later scholars have proven, by looking at other sources besides comic books, that although Finger's involvement was pivotal, he certainly didn't create EVERYTHING in the Batman strip while Kane merely picked his nose! (Alfred, who was created by the writers of the first movie serial, is just one such example).
Nor did Bill ever claim he created BAtman, not in Steranko nor at that memorable comic book convention; indeed, in Steranko's "History..." he was very specific about some of his contributions, both for Batman and other series. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 19:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
I read the article and it came up as really curious that after the article's tone goes to state that the camp phase of the character ended in the 1980's, then goes off to portray the 1960's version of the car in the section "Equipment". Furthermore, when it was added to serve as an illustration of the vehicle the article was referring to with the machine guns, it was taken down with the comment "we cannot have 2 pictures for the same section". First off, who says we can't? and second, why stick with the 60's car instead of any of the other sources or iterations the car has gone through? -we could stay with any, or all, better yet, we should settle to saty with the most current