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Ayaan Hirsi Ali article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Ayaan Hirsi Ali was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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To-do list for Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
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It's a photo with no significance to her biography or career and seems strange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.145.24 ( talk • contribs) 2016-03-12 (UTC)
I second this, and recommend its removal. Dtwedt ( talk) 16:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in this AfD discussion about whether to delete Intellectual Dark Web. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Re: [1]. The text already says that the SPLC removed the list. So half this sentence is redundant. The other half is about the apology to Nawaz. So since this article is about Hirsi Ali, not Nawaz, it's off topic. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
The article is overwhelmingly biased against Ayaan with the bulk of the reception being negative. Looking at the contributions it appears a lot of these edits come from users who are opposed to her views on Islam and not approaching the article in a neutral way.-- 173.162.148.157 ( talk) 14:15, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
"sad early life"->"citizenship controversy" ->"publication controversy" ->"criticism"->"publications"->"awards"
. Yes the first half of the article is overwhelmingly negative and sad feeling, but that's just how her life has gone, there is little that can be done about that. It's an encyclopedia article,sometimes it will be sad, you wouldn't for example expect the article about the
Holocaust to have cheery upbeat parts after all.
Ethanpet113 (
talk) 06:32, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
UTC)
UTC)
If you start asking for reliably sourced criticisms to be deleted on grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT you'll probably find it hard-going. This is why I suggested that if you find there isn't enough positive coverage in reception you should be trying to find more - because your assertion that the current weight of the article doesn't reflect the reality of her reception hinges largely on whether positive responses to her can be found that have not been included. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
Request for comment discussion has been initiated @
Talk:List of former Muslims#Rfc: Soft censoring of Ex-Muslim Articles and has reference to this article there in.
Those interested can express their views there in.
Thanks
Bookku ( talk) 09:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Ayaan has released a new book, this should be mentioned. Most sources appear to be commentaries however:
2001:56A:F123:4400:D97E:541B:76A0:561 ( talk) 23:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I read the entire essay, but it isn't really clear if she is more than a "cultural Christian", and that's what I took away from it. For what it is worth, Dawkins also describes himself as a cultural Christian. I also think that was the primary thesis of her essay, that the reformation of Christianity allowed for secularism and atheism to co-exist without the call to destroy them found in political Islam today. Obviously, she goes one step beyond this simple argument by asserting that the story itself (the whole shebang, ball of wax, enchilada, or megillah) is the driving force for the values of progressivism and modernity. It's an interesting idea, and it's one I've been investigating for a long time, but there's a lot of counterarguments that she should have been aware of or at least addressed, but chose to ignore. I would like to see more critical discussion about it in the article. Her position sounds a lot like the philosophy of Leo Strauss who believed in the primacy and importance of a noble lie (or story) to drive civilization. My guess is that this essay places her in the neoconservative camp, along with the rest of the so-called "liberals" on the right. Viriditas ( talk)
Recent edits by StardustToStardust and KlayCax have been made to the article in the wake of the right-wing news blitz over Ali claiming to be a Christian (which I touched upon in the above thread). Previous to their tag-team distortions, other editors make a series of policy-compliant edits that properly added this information to correct parts of the article and discussed it in the appropriate context. [2]
Everything was fine until StardustToStardust arrived, changing the entire stability of the article, to now calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraph, which is completely out of the context of the third paragraph where her role is discussed, and then immediately juxtaposing this extraordinary claim with "she announced her conversion to Christianity in November 2023", again, out of the third paragraph where it is discussed. They then went on to rewrite other stable sections out of chronological order, duplicate material in the same section (female genital mutilation is now discussed twice in the lead) and remove in its entirety her opposition to male circumcision. [3]
StardustToStardust claimed in the edit summary that they removed the content about male circumcision because the link was dead, [4] but that's not how we edit Wikipedia, and I think StardustToStardust knows that. A quick search shows that Ali's comments about male circumcision were recorded on video with an English transcription provided, [5] so one wonders why the material was removed.
This is not an improvement, it is the destabilization of a former stable article. Viriditas ( talk) 00:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
KlayCax comment:
1.) female genital mutilation is now discussed twice in the lead
In two different contexts. The first relates to her activism against FGM. The second recounts her personal experience of FGM.
2.) to now calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraph
This is uncontroversial. She's frequently listed as a top figures in the movement by reliable sources.
3.) over Ali claiming to be a Christian
What evidence do we have that she's not really Christian? Even from a conservative, traditionalist perspective? Does she deny a theistic view of God?
There are a lot of problems with Starlight's edits. I've removed most of the issues you pointed out of. But I see nothing objectionable in the remaining changes. What's the POV being pushed? KlayCax ( talk) 01:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
female genital mutilation (FGM)... in the ledehas appropriate, reliable sources now
calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraphis pretty well established; the book by M H Khalil provides the substance, and a recent piece from New York Magazine called here "a face of New Atheism" which roughly means she was a central figure. (And, yes, I've added that source in.)
Ali claiming to be a Christianis settled as a basic statement, but there are contrasting views as to how personal the decision is, so I have included opposing views.
Are people with Dutch heritage. If I move to Somalia, live there for 10 years and then move to the USA, I do not become an Afro American. My (recent) ancestors did not live in Africa and hers did not live in the Netherlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A420:27:6BF0:3946:BAAD:7B1B:4C71 ( talk) 10:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
IP 83.105.44.124 has been repeatedly adding content to the article over the objections of other editors. I see parts of these edits as clear BLP violations, including the unsourced assertion that Ali's "statement of conversion from atheism to Christianity only in November 2023 is questionable at best". IP pings don't work, so I'll post a message at their talk page. I would love for them to come here and build consensus for their changes. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 19:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Her statement of conversion from atheism to Christianity only in November 2023 is questionable at best due to at least two reasons: 1) Her attacks in the previous years against Muslim faith schools, whilst protecting Christian and Jewish schools, which is something an "atheist", such as her, should not technically have done 2) Very convenient timing of the conversion which was shortly after a start of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, which began on 7 October 2023 - she extensively discussed this conflict in her article about the conversion.
You think that's all supported by the sources you've cited? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 00:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Hirsi Ali demonstrated a bias and prejudice directed towards Muslim faith schools, when she issued a call to Australian government to ban Muslim faith schools, whilst arguing at the same time that there are no similar arguments for banning of Christian and Jewish schools, which counteracted her own arguments that she is against all faith schools
Does anyone have a neutral proposal? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 01:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)left his wife of 16 years Sue Douglass and his three children to marry Hirsi Ali
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ayaan Hirsi Ali article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Ayaan Hirsi Ali was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
To-do list for Ayaan Hirsi Ali:
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
It's a photo with no significance to her biography or career and seems strange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.145.24 ( talk • contribs) 2016-03-12 (UTC)
I second this, and recommend its removal. Dtwedt ( talk) 16:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
You are invited to participate in this AfD discussion about whether to delete Intellectual Dark Web. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 22:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Re: [1]. The text already says that the SPLC removed the list. So half this sentence is redundant. The other half is about the apology to Nawaz. So since this article is about Hirsi Ali, not Nawaz, it's off topic. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 21:57, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
The article is overwhelmingly biased against Ayaan with the bulk of the reception being negative. Looking at the contributions it appears a lot of these edits come from users who are opposed to her views on Islam and not approaching the article in a neutral way.-- 173.162.148.157 ( talk) 14:15, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
"sad early life"->"citizenship controversy" ->"publication controversy" ->"criticism"->"publications"->"awards"
. Yes the first half of the article is overwhelmingly negative and sad feeling, but that's just how her life has gone, there is little that can be done about that. It's an encyclopedia article,sometimes it will be sad, you wouldn't for example expect the article about the
Holocaust to have cheery upbeat parts after all.
Ethanpet113 (
talk) 06:32, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
UTC)
UTC)
If you start asking for reliably sourced criticisms to be deleted on grounds of WP:IDONTLIKEIT you'll probably find it hard-going. This is why I suggested that if you find there isn't enough positive coverage in reception you should be trying to find more - because your assertion that the current weight of the article doesn't reflect the reality of her reception hinges largely on whether positive responses to her can be found that have not been included. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:20, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi,
Request for comment discussion has been initiated @
Talk:List of former Muslims#Rfc: Soft censoring of Ex-Muslim Articles and has reference to this article there in.
Those interested can express their views there in.
Thanks
Bookku ( talk) 09:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Ayaan has released a new book, this should be mentioned. Most sources appear to be commentaries however:
2001:56A:F123:4400:D97E:541B:76A0:561 ( talk) 23:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
I read the entire essay, but it isn't really clear if she is more than a "cultural Christian", and that's what I took away from it. For what it is worth, Dawkins also describes himself as a cultural Christian. I also think that was the primary thesis of her essay, that the reformation of Christianity allowed for secularism and atheism to co-exist without the call to destroy them found in political Islam today. Obviously, she goes one step beyond this simple argument by asserting that the story itself (the whole shebang, ball of wax, enchilada, or megillah) is the driving force for the values of progressivism and modernity. It's an interesting idea, and it's one I've been investigating for a long time, but there's a lot of counterarguments that she should have been aware of or at least addressed, but chose to ignore. I would like to see more critical discussion about it in the article. Her position sounds a lot like the philosophy of Leo Strauss who believed in the primacy and importance of a noble lie (or story) to drive civilization. My guess is that this essay places her in the neoconservative camp, along with the rest of the so-called "liberals" on the right. Viriditas ( talk)
Recent edits by StardustToStardust and KlayCax have been made to the article in the wake of the right-wing news blitz over Ali claiming to be a Christian (which I touched upon in the above thread). Previous to their tag-team distortions, other editors make a series of policy-compliant edits that properly added this information to correct parts of the article and discussed it in the appropriate context. [2]
Everything was fine until StardustToStardust arrived, changing the entire stability of the article, to now calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraph, which is completely out of the context of the third paragraph where her role is discussed, and then immediately juxtaposing this extraordinary claim with "she announced her conversion to Christianity in November 2023", again, out of the third paragraph where it is discussed. They then went on to rewrite other stable sections out of chronological order, duplicate material in the same section (female genital mutilation is now discussed twice in the lead) and remove in its entirety her opposition to male circumcision. [3]
StardustToStardust claimed in the edit summary that they removed the content about male circumcision because the link was dead, [4] but that's not how we edit Wikipedia, and I think StardustToStardust knows that. A quick search shows that Ali's comments about male circumcision were recorded on video with an English transcription provided, [5] so one wonders why the material was removed.
This is not an improvement, it is the destabilization of a former stable article. Viriditas ( talk) 00:38, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
KlayCax comment:
1.) female genital mutilation is now discussed twice in the lead
In two different contexts. The first relates to her activism against FGM. The second recounts her personal experience of FGM.
2.) to now calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraph
This is uncontroversial. She's frequently listed as a top figures in the movement by reliable sources.
3.) over Ali claiming to be a Christian
What evidence do we have that she's not really Christian? Even from a conservative, traditionalist perspective? Does she deny a theistic view of God?
There are a lot of problems with Starlight's edits. I've removed most of the issues you pointed out of. But I see nothing objectionable in the remaining changes. What's the POV being pushed? KlayCax ( talk) 01:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
female genital mutilation (FGM)... in the ledehas appropriate, reliable sources now
calling Ali "a central figure of New Atheism" in the first paragraphis pretty well established; the book by M H Khalil provides the substance, and a recent piece from New York Magazine called here "a face of New Atheism" which roughly means she was a central figure. (And, yes, I've added that source in.)
Ali claiming to be a Christianis settled as a basic statement, but there are contrasting views as to how personal the decision is, so I have included opposing views.
Are people with Dutch heritage. If I move to Somalia, live there for 10 years and then move to the USA, I do not become an Afro American. My (recent) ancestors did not live in Africa and hers did not live in the Netherlands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A420:27:6BF0:3946:BAAD:7B1B:4C71 ( talk) 10:41, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
IP 83.105.44.124 has been repeatedly adding content to the article over the objections of other editors. I see parts of these edits as clear BLP violations, including the unsourced assertion that Ali's "statement of conversion from atheism to Christianity only in November 2023 is questionable at best". IP pings don't work, so I'll post a message at their talk page. I would love for them to come here and build consensus for their changes. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 19:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Her statement of conversion from atheism to Christianity only in November 2023 is questionable at best due to at least two reasons: 1) Her attacks in the previous years against Muslim faith schools, whilst protecting Christian and Jewish schools, which is something an "atheist", such as her, should not technically have done 2) Very convenient timing of the conversion which was shortly after a start of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, which began on 7 October 2023 - she extensively discussed this conflict in her article about the conversion.
You think that's all supported by the sources you've cited? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 00:58, 14 February 2024 (UTC)Hirsi Ali demonstrated a bias and prejudice directed towards Muslim faith schools, when she issued a call to Australian government to ban Muslim faith schools, whilst arguing at the same time that there are no similar arguments for banning of Christian and Jewish schools, which counteracted her own arguments that she is against all faith schools
Does anyone have a neutral proposal? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 01:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)left his wife of 16 years Sue Douglass and his three children to marry Hirsi Ali