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Nomination of Superstitions in Muslim societies for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Superstitions in Muslim societies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstitions in Muslim societies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Bookku ( talk) 09:34, 24 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ?

Greetings,

This is basically continuation of first round of discussion which took place previously @ Talk:Islamic literature and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)

Present Wikipedia tendency

An average tendency on Wikipedia seems to be of transforming word Muslim into Islam or Islamic wherever possible without visiting nuanced aspects. As a small example title Islamic feminism is nuanced and correct since it specifically refers to theory of Islam. But is it correct to redirect title Muslim women to Women in Islam those who are not exposed to nuances might think so. Some might take refuge to fallacy of Appeal to popularity, but nuanced view suggests otherwise. Pl. do read on below given copy pasted discussion from Talk:Islamic literature

Here comes concept of normative.

  • Quick google search of term Normative gives definition as "...establishing, relating to, or deriving from a standard or norm, especially of behaviour...."

Is present lack of nuanced approach, risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative. All Islamic art can be called Muslim art, but whether all Muslim art can be called Islamic art. For example recently one Saira Khan recently openly declared of not being practicing Muslim, and still we can not list her in List of former Muslims so formally remains a Muslim at the most one can categories them in Cultural Muslim; take one more point, there can be former Muslim who reverts to Islam is it easy to classify their art Muslim or Islamic ? Or take example of M.F. Husain many of his drawings are of living things so whether it is safe to classify his art Muslim or Islamic ? :File:Khamseh Nizami 001.jpg is included in article Islamic Art how far it can be called Islamic Art or is it safer to call it Muslim art?

Those Wikipedians who do have lesser familiarity with Muslims or Islam usually tend to take position I/We don't have understanding on the topic, pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam, even when topic is critical of Islam that is categorized Islamic project pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam. Doesn't it risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative?

Scholarship highlighting this issue

1) According to [1] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims.
2.1) According to M.M. Knight, when one does not speak for real Islam (i.e.'an abstracted ideal' that floats above, Muslim, human cultures but speaks for 'lived traditions') it is preferable to use the term Muslim instead of the term Islam or Islamic. [1]
2.2) M.M. Knight further says,terms 'Islam/ Islamic' imposes claim of normativity, which is distinct with lived experiences hence need not be conflated. [2] (My emphasis)

Question of Grammar

One copyeditor user Dakinijones points out his difficulties @ Talk:Islamic literature, he says:

...According to [2] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims. So I’ve done some of the (requested via women’s rights article) copyediting on that basis. Please correct my ignorances with sources if wrong. Thanks!...

Similar points of grammar have been discussed @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) similar to [3] their point is architecture, music, art, thought are not humans so saying Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought, should be avoided.

Since personally I am more concerned with normative I am okay with Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought since those are more inclusive terms in spite issues of grammar inaccuracies, but terms are understandable to human mind; my human brain can very well understand those terms as 'architecture/ music/ art/ thought created by Muslims.'


Nuanced differences and other Wikipedia articles

Please see below given table.

List of articles With Word Muslim or Islam in title
Muslim Islam Comment
Muslim dietary laws This needs to be Islamic dietary laws ?
Apostasy in Islam Article Former Muslim of Ex Muslim needs to exist separately because title Apostasy in Islam has Islamic normative that atheists don't share?
Islamic culture Needs to be Muslim culture?
Islamic literature Needs to be Muslim literature?

Islamic Golden Age

Needs to be Muslim Golden Age ?
Women in Islam Need to be Muslim women?
Islamophobia Need to be Anti Muslim Sentiment?
  • Would term Muslim culture represent cultural diversity among Muslim communities over time and places reflect better than monolithic representation in term " Islamic culture"?
  • Can we draw a parallel, In between Your point differentiating between "Women in Islam" and "Muslim women" and Apostasy in Islam and Former muslims being both valid, and have entirely different normative directions?

I am very well aware of grammar related points of Maproom & Louis P. Boog maintained by them and others @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) and not too keen to break grammar related rules but want other readers also to be aware of issues involved for wider consultations. Bookku ( talk) 11:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN  978-1-101-98349-2.
  2. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN  978-1-101-98349-2.
  • Do you have a specific proposal for this page? For example, are you proposing this page be moved to Former Muslims? Or that this page be merged with Apostasy in Islam? I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused. VR talk 03:08, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
IMO any consensus building on such topics will be long drawn process so at the moment in first round of discussion, I wish people become aware that there is some thing to look into. It became common also because I started discussing from village pump side and will be posting to one or two more common discussion places. After taking note of first round of discussion in second or third round we can make specific proposal. Basically I am not in any hurry.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku ( talk) 03:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Bookku: wondering where Muslims (ethnic group), fits in all the above. Lotje ( talk) 05:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
The term "Islamic" means that it originates from religious sources such as the Quran and the hadiths, or anything related to Muhammad. The term "Muslim" sounds like it relates to the acts of Muslim individuals. Law about apostasy, culture, art (ban on painting and sculpture), literature, etc. are rooted in Islam's own sources. - Aybeg ( talk) 07:12, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
Issues like this are one reason we have Wikiprojects, this belongs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam/ Doug Weller talk 13:30, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
@ Doug Weller: As I mentioned earlier, This is not a decision making round, I started with centralized Village pump → Now some individual talk pages → again such centralized pages you are discussing → and again back to concerned individual pages with specific proposals for those pages.
As I said earlier I am going very slow, The whole purpose is to avoid any hasty decision making, reach out and involve as many stake holders are involved, and let every one have more than enough time time and opportunities to express their views. You might have noticed I am trying to reach out all likely stake holders and I have included even those views which do not necessarily match with mine.
Just may be you can express views on any of the talk pages at individual or central location at any round of discussion, I do hope and request you to join in discussions as per your choice and rest of community will take all views in to account before deciding on any thing. Many thanks for expressing yourself and warm regards Bookku ( talk) 14:03, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Akbar

The article states that Akbar converted from Islam to a new religion, Din-i-Ilahi, but at the article of Din-i-Ilahi I found out that modern historians disagree as to whether it was a religion or a spiritual discipleship program. [1] Another point to be noted is that Akbar never renounced Islam, publicly or privately [2], which an ex-Muslim would certainly do. In view of this, I think it would be unreasonable to consider Akbar as an ex-Muslim and his name should be removed from the article. Uchiha Madara 17 ( talk) 10:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Following aspects come to my mind
1) I suppose this list is primarily for those individuals who have formally renounced Islam or formally converted to another religion.
2) I came across a case of one Saira Khan who according to news reports publicly admitted that she is no longer a practicing Muslim, but she did not say she has left Islam now this category goes to Cultural Muslim until any of Cultural Muslim officially admits they left Islam for encyclopedic purposes they remain to be cultural Muslims
3) Some Muslim individuals or groups practice a concept of Takfir where in one Muslim declares another Muslim as not Muslim enough or even apostate or Kafir and many take objection to any innovation in religion or practice. For extreme orthodox the Muslims not fully practicing every principle of Islam, introducing innovation may not be Muslim enough so they can call them apostate again their are more nuances and interpretations on this aspect but for our this list purpose those criteria are subjective without taking into account what that individual thinks and officially admits of themselves. So for Wikipedia encyclopedic purposes Cultural Muslims, individuals following Syncretism but calling themselves Muslim and individuals like Akbar who bring in innovation or start new belief system but do not officially admit to have left Islam need not count to be Ex–Muslim or Former Muslim.

4) In India one can find at least one example where in one individual openly declared he has not left Islam but follows Hinduism as his 'Akida' meaning belief, then there are many examples of Individuals who say they follow Islam but culturally Hindus again an extreme orthodox Muslim might call them apostate but again until those individuals officially say they renounced their religion for encyclopedic purposes they remain to be people in categories of what they feel but not expressly Ex–Muslim or Former Muslim

5)Borderline Muslims Then there are categories of progressive liberals, modernists , Islamic feminist who interpret Islam in ways extreme orthodox Muslim would not agree but still for all practical purposes they remain on border lines of Muslim or Cultural Muslim, there is one more type in border line Muslim communities who got converted to Islam but the process of Islamization did not take place or did not get completed, in cases of many Muslim communities process Islamization happened too late so what to call whose process of Islamization is in complete ?

  • There is one more under looked aspect of Akbar, not only any of his own family member joined his innovative belief system but also he actively supported his grandson Shah Jahan to be raised Muslim with his Muslim wife rather than Shah Jahan's Hindu mother. So there is not much point in categorizing in Ex–Muslim but categorizing in Muslims who initiated their own beliefs system will be a better way. Wikipedia need to have lists for syncretic Muslims, cultural Muslims and those who experimented their own belief systems.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' ( talk) 04:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC) reply
Agreed, Akbar was indeed a highly unorthodox Muslim at best, but due to no definite proof it would be unfair to categorise him as an Ex-Muslim. A point to be noted it that Cultural Muslim is a somebody who does not practice Islamic beliefs, but there is no evidence as to Akbar stopping practicing Islam, though he likely did not practice as much as an orthodox Muslim. Progressive liberals seems like the optimum category. Uchiha Madara 17 ( talk) 13:14, 12 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Titel "Former Muslims"?

Why is the titel "muslim apostates" and not "former muslims" as for all other religions? Nillurcheier ( talk) 09:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Nillurcheier: The page title was boldly moved in December, I restored the old title per WP:NPOV. – Austronesier ( talk) 21:35, 25 January 2022 (UTC) reply

promotion of violence regarding living persons

ALL living people on this list who have left Islam need to be removed from this page *for their own safety* as the Shari'a penalty for apostasy generally amounts to a death sentence.

ONLY noted persons who have *already passed* / died may be safely listed publicly. RC Silk ( talk) 04:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ Lefèvre, Corinne (2015-04-01). "Dīn-i ilāhī". Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE.
  2. ^ Collier, Dirk (1 March 2016). "The Great Mughals and their India p. 232". Hay House, Inc – via Google Books.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_former_Muslims&oldid=1208238339"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nomination of Superstitions in Muslim societies for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Superstitions in Muslim societies is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Superstitions in Muslim societies until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Bookku ( talk) 09:34, 24 November 2020 (UTC) reply

Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ?

Greetings,

This is basically continuation of first round of discussion which took place previously @ Talk:Islamic literature and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)

Present Wikipedia tendency

An average tendency on Wikipedia seems to be of transforming word Muslim into Islam or Islamic wherever possible without visiting nuanced aspects. As a small example title Islamic feminism is nuanced and correct since it specifically refers to theory of Islam. But is it correct to redirect title Muslim women to Women in Islam those who are not exposed to nuances might think so. Some might take refuge to fallacy of Appeal to popularity, but nuanced view suggests otherwise. Pl. do read on below given copy pasted discussion from Talk:Islamic literature

Here comes concept of normative.

  • Quick google search of term Normative gives definition as "...establishing, relating to, or deriving from a standard or norm, especially of behaviour...."

Is present lack of nuanced approach, risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative. All Islamic art can be called Muslim art, but whether all Muslim art can be called Islamic art. For example recently one Saira Khan recently openly declared of not being practicing Muslim, and still we can not list her in List of former Muslims so formally remains a Muslim at the most one can categories them in Cultural Muslim; take one more point, there can be former Muslim who reverts to Islam is it easy to classify their art Muslim or Islamic ? Or take example of M.F. Husain many of his drawings are of living things so whether it is safe to classify his art Muslim or Islamic ? :File:Khamseh Nizami 001.jpg is included in article Islamic Art how far it can be called Islamic Art or is it safer to call it Muslim art?

Those Wikipedians who do have lesser familiarity with Muslims or Islam usually tend to take position I/We don't have understanding on the topic, pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam, even when topic is critical of Islam that is categorized Islamic project pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam. Doesn't it risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative?

Scholarship highlighting this issue

1) According to [1] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims.
2.1) According to M.M. Knight, when one does not speak for real Islam (i.e.'an abstracted ideal' that floats above, Muslim, human cultures but speaks for 'lived traditions') it is preferable to use the term Muslim instead of the term Islam or Islamic. [1]
2.2) M.M. Knight further says,terms 'Islam/ Islamic' imposes claim of normativity, which is distinct with lived experiences hence need not be conflated. [2] (My emphasis)

Question of Grammar

One copyeditor user Dakinijones points out his difficulties @ Talk:Islamic literature, he says:

...According to [2] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims. So I’ve done some of the (requested via women’s rights article) copyediting on that basis. Please correct my ignorances with sources if wrong. Thanks!...

Similar points of grammar have been discussed @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) similar to [3] their point is architecture, music, art, thought are not humans so saying Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought, should be avoided.

Since personally I am more concerned with normative I am okay with Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought since those are more inclusive terms in spite issues of grammar inaccuracies, but terms are understandable to human mind; my human brain can very well understand those terms as 'architecture/ music/ art/ thought created by Muslims.'


Nuanced differences and other Wikipedia articles

Please see below given table.

List of articles With Word Muslim or Islam in title
Muslim Islam Comment
Muslim dietary laws This needs to be Islamic dietary laws ?
Apostasy in Islam Article Former Muslim of Ex Muslim needs to exist separately because title Apostasy in Islam has Islamic normative that atheists don't share?
Islamic culture Needs to be Muslim culture?
Islamic literature Needs to be Muslim literature?

Islamic Golden Age

Needs to be Muslim Golden Age ?
Women in Islam Need to be Muslim women?
Islamophobia Need to be Anti Muslim Sentiment?
  • Would term Muslim culture represent cultural diversity among Muslim communities over time and places reflect better than monolithic representation in term " Islamic culture"?
  • Can we draw a parallel, In between Your point differentiating between "Women in Islam" and "Muslim women" and Apostasy in Islam and Former muslims being both valid, and have entirely different normative directions?

I am very well aware of grammar related points of Maproom & Louis P. Boog maintained by them and others @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) and not too keen to break grammar related rules but want other readers also to be aware of issues involved for wider consultations. Bookku ( talk) 11:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN  978-1-101-98349-2.
  2. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN  978-1-101-98349-2.
  • Do you have a specific proposal for this page? For example, are you proposing this page be moved to Former Muslims? Or that this page be merged with Apostasy in Islam? I'm sorry but I'm a bit confused. VR talk 03:08, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
IMO any consensus building on such topics will be long drawn process so at the moment in first round of discussion, I wish people become aware that there is some thing to look into. It became common also because I started discussing from village pump side and will be posting to one or two more common discussion places. After taking note of first round of discussion in second or third round we can make specific proposal. Basically I am not in any hurry.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku ( talk) 03:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Bookku: wondering where Muslims (ethnic group), fits in all the above. Lotje ( talk) 05:38, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
The term "Islamic" means that it originates from religious sources such as the Quran and the hadiths, or anything related to Muhammad. The term "Muslim" sounds like it relates to the acts of Muslim individuals. Law about apostasy, culture, art (ban on painting and sculpture), literature, etc. are rooted in Islam's own sources. - Aybeg ( talk) 07:12, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
Issues like this are one reason we have Wikiprojects, this belongs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam/ Doug Weller talk 13:30, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply
@ Doug Weller: As I mentioned earlier, This is not a decision making round, I started with centralized Village pump → Now some individual talk pages → again such centralized pages you are discussing → and again back to concerned individual pages with specific proposals for those pages.
As I said earlier I am going very slow, The whole purpose is to avoid any hasty decision making, reach out and involve as many stake holders are involved, and let every one have more than enough time time and opportunities to express their views. You might have noticed I am trying to reach out all likely stake holders and I have included even those views which do not necessarily match with mine.
Just may be you can express views on any of the talk pages at individual or central location at any round of discussion, I do hope and request you to join in discussions as per your choice and rest of community will take all views in to account before deciding on any thing. Many thanks for expressing yourself and warm regards Bookku ( talk) 14:03, 5 March 2021 (UTC) reply

Akbar

The article states that Akbar converted from Islam to a new religion, Din-i-Ilahi, but at the article of Din-i-Ilahi I found out that modern historians disagree as to whether it was a religion or a spiritual discipleship program. [1] Another point to be noted is that Akbar never renounced Islam, publicly or privately [2], which an ex-Muslim would certainly do. In view of this, I think it would be unreasonable to consider Akbar as an ex-Muslim and his name should be removed from the article. Uchiha Madara 17 ( talk) 10:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Following aspects come to my mind
1) I suppose this list is primarily for those individuals who have formally renounced Islam or formally converted to another religion.
2) I came across a case of one Saira Khan who according to news reports publicly admitted that she is no longer a practicing Muslim, but she did not say she has left Islam now this category goes to Cultural Muslim until any of Cultural Muslim officially admits they left Islam for encyclopedic purposes they remain to be cultural Muslims
3) Some Muslim individuals or groups practice a concept of Takfir where in one Muslim declares another Muslim as not Muslim enough or even apostate or Kafir and many take objection to any innovation in religion or practice. For extreme orthodox the Muslims not fully practicing every principle of Islam, introducing innovation may not be Muslim enough so they can call them apostate again their are more nuances and interpretations on this aspect but for our this list purpose those criteria are subjective without taking into account what that individual thinks and officially admits of themselves. So for Wikipedia encyclopedic purposes Cultural Muslims, individuals following Syncretism but calling themselves Muslim and individuals like Akbar who bring in innovation or start new belief system but do not officially admit to have left Islam need not count to be Ex–Muslim or Former Muslim.

4) In India one can find at least one example where in one individual openly declared he has not left Islam but follows Hinduism as his 'Akida' meaning belief, then there are many examples of Individuals who say they follow Islam but culturally Hindus again an extreme orthodox Muslim might call them apostate but again until those individuals officially say they renounced their religion for encyclopedic purposes they remain to be people in categories of what they feel but not expressly Ex–Muslim or Former Muslim

5)Borderline Muslims Then there are categories of progressive liberals, modernists , Islamic feminist who interpret Islam in ways extreme orthodox Muslim would not agree but still for all practical purposes they remain on border lines of Muslim or Cultural Muslim, there is one more type in border line Muslim communities who got converted to Islam but the process of Islamization did not take place or did not get completed, in cases of many Muslim communities process Islamization happened too late so what to call whose process of Islamization is in complete ?

  • There is one more under looked aspect of Akbar, not only any of his own family member joined his innovative belief system but also he actively supported his grandson Shah Jahan to be raised Muslim with his Muslim wife rather than Shah Jahan's Hindu mother. So there is not much point in categorizing in Ex–Muslim but categorizing in Muslims who initiated their own beliefs system will be a better way. Wikipedia need to have lists for syncretic Muslims, cultural Muslims and those who experimented their own belief systems.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias are for expanding information and knowledge' ( talk) 04:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC) reply
Agreed, Akbar was indeed a highly unorthodox Muslim at best, but due to no definite proof it would be unfair to categorise him as an Ex-Muslim. A point to be noted it that Cultural Muslim is a somebody who does not practice Islamic beliefs, but there is no evidence as to Akbar stopping practicing Islam, though he likely did not practice as much as an orthodox Muslim. Progressive liberals seems like the optimum category. Uchiha Madara 17 ( talk) 13:14, 12 August 2021 (UTC) reply

Titel "Former Muslims"?

Why is the titel "muslim apostates" and not "former muslims" as for all other religions? Nillurcheier ( talk) 09:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC) reply

@ Nillurcheier: The page title was boldly moved in December, I restored the old title per WP:NPOV. – Austronesier ( talk) 21:35, 25 January 2022 (UTC) reply

promotion of violence regarding living persons

ALL living people on this list who have left Islam need to be removed from this page *for their own safety* as the Shari'a penalty for apostasy generally amounts to a death sentence.

ONLY noted persons who have *already passed* / died may be safely listed publicly. RC Silk ( talk) 04:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC) reply

  1. ^ Lefèvre, Corinne (2015-04-01). "Dīn-i ilāhī". Encyclopaedia of Islam, THREE.
  2. ^ Collier, Dirk (1 March 2016). "The Great Mughals and their India p. 232". Hay House, Inc – via Google Books.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:List_of_former_Muslims&oldid=1208238339"

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