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The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of oundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.
- http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html
Deserves a mention. The first para to this article is pretty ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.36.197 ( talk) 06:42, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Compare Shira Schoenberg, Ashkenazim at the Jewish Virtual Library to our history. Nothing there gives us what we have here, because the following 'stuff' has nothing to do with the Ashkenazim.
After the Roman empire had overpowered the Jewish resistance in the First Jewish–Roman War in Judea and destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, the complete Roman takeover of Judea followed the Bar Kokhba rebellion of 132–135 CE. Though their numbers were greatly reduced, Jews continued to populate large parts of Judea province (renamed Palaestina), remaining a majority in Galilee for several hundred years. But, the Romans no longer recognized the authority of the Sanhedrin or any other Jewish body, and Jews were prohibited from living in Jerusalem. Outside the Roman Empire, a large Jewish community remained in Mesopotamia. Other Jewish populations could be found dispersed around the Mediterranean region, with the largest concentrations in the Levant, Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece, and Italy, including Rome. Many Jews were denied full Roman citizenship until 212 CE, when Emperor Caracalla granted all free peoples this privilege. Josephus ben Matthias, a direct-line descendant of the Hasmonaeans, became a Roman citizen and adopted the family name of the Roman Emperor Flavius, before 70 A.D. This was before he accompanied Vespasian's son Titus to Jerusalem and wrote The Antiquities of the Jews (The History of the Jews). As a penalty for the first Jewish Revolt, Jews were required to pay a poll tax until the reign of Emperor Julian in 363. In the late Roman Empire, Jews were free to form networks of cultural and religious ties and enter into various local occupations. But, after Christianity became the official religion of Rome and Constantinople in 380, Jews were increasingly marginalized.In Syria-Palaestina and Mesopotamia, where Jewish religious scholarship was centered, the majority of Jews were still engaged in farming. Early Talmudic writings were concerned with agriculture. In diaspora communities, trade was a common occupation, facilitated by the easy mobility of traders through the dispersed Jewish communities.[citation needed] Throughout this period and into the early Middle Ages, some Jews assimilated into the dominant Greek and Latin cultures, mostly through conversion to Christianity.[43] A remnant of this Greek-speaking Jewish population (the Romaniotes) survives to this day. In Mesopotamia, and in Persian lands free of Roman imperial domination, Jewish life fared better. Since the conquest of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar II, this community had always been the leading diaspora community, a rival to the leadership of Judea. After conditions for Jews began to deteriorate in Roman-controlled lands, many of the religious leaders of Judea and the Galilee fled to the east. At the academies of Pumbeditha and Sura near Babylon, Rabbinic Judaism based on Talmudic learning began to emerge and assert its authority over Jewish life throughout the diaspora. Rabbinic Judaism created a religious mandate for literacy, requiring all Jewish males to learn Hebrew and read from the Torah. Jewish minorities in both Christian and Islamic lands achieved a higher literacy rate than the majority of gentiles, which M. Botticini and Z. Eckstein suggest gave them an advantage to fulfill urban commercial and financial roles.[44] In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz. Jewish traders from Baghdad began to travel to the west, renewing Jewish life in the western Mediterranean region.[45] They brought with them Rabbinic Judaism and Babylonian Talmudic scholarship.
This has suffered extensively from edit-warring, and the result has been extensive use of scratchy sources. The history of the Jews is extensively documented by many solid academic books, and articles. It's not hard to use this, instead of scrounging about for snippets from the internet. I did a preliminary edit for the early (pre-)history mainly consisting in the removal of all of those paragraphs which had no place here, dealing as they did with Jews in Persia and the Middle East with no connection to the subject of this article. I'd be quite willing to leave the article if a few people out there could subscribe to the idea that academic sources cover all the bases, and we should use them. Nishidani ( talk) 14:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
In Mesopotamia, and in Persian lands free of Roman imperial domination, Jewish life fared better. Since the conquest of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar II, this community had always been the leading diaspora community, a rival to the leadership of Judea. After conditions for Jews began to deteriorate in Roman-controlled lands, many of the religious leaders of Judea and the Galilee fled to the east. At the academies of Pumbeditha and Sura near Babylon, Rabbinic Judaism based on Talmudic learning began to emerge and assert its authority over Jewish life throughout the diaspora. Rabbinic Judaism created a religious mandate for literacy, requiring all Jewish males to learn Hebrew and read from the Torah. Jewish minorities in both Christian and Islamic lands achieved a higher literacy rate than the majority of gentiles, which M. Botticini and Z. Eckstein suggest gave them an advantage to fulfill urban commercial and financial roles.[44] In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz. Jewish traders from Baghdad began to travel to the west, renewing Jewish life in the western Mediterranean region.[45] They brought with them Rabbinic Judaism and Babylonian Talmudic scholarship.
Mesopotamia is mentioned as the focal point of Jewish migrations, birth place of Talmud and in this context it is important in understanding Ashkenazi Jews. Also, the sections explains the reasons of migration of Jews from Palestine to Europe-which is considered by some scholars as the main root of migrations of Ashkenazi Jews. The patterns of Jewish migrations and trade which brought Talmud to Europe are also very important in understanding Jewish history. The same goes for the understanding of traditional Ashekanzi occupations which were brought to Ashkeanzi Jews by Jewish traders from Near East and South West Asia. I do not see anything objectionable here.-- Tritomex ( talk) 23:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
The same goes for the understanding of traditional Ashekanzi occupations which were brought to Ashkeanzi Jews by Jewish traders from Near East and South West Asia.
I reverted this edit because it is technically false. But there is a problem in the source, a source by the way that I found on the page and had no alternative but to use it.
Where and when, during the first post-Christian millenium, eastern European Jewry came to be labelled with the Hebrew name of their Scythian neighbours on the Blackl Sea steppe is unknown, but ever since then it has been Ashkenazi.'
is espousing the Khazar thesis, but the facts do not allow this conclusion. Ashkenazim came into use to refer to European Jews east of the Spanish Sephardic communities, I guess, wherever they might have been, but certainly not in the sense of of 'eastern European Jewry' particularly since it was used of the French and German communities at that time. When one encounters this kind of misleading evidence in RS, one should, as here, enter it, and then go for a better source which specifies that Ashkenazi 'came to refer' to European Jews' so that the otherwise respectable Rs's POv can be remodulated. Nishidani ( talk) 18:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Tritomex wrote in an edit summary, "Yovhannes Drasxanakertc associated "Togormah" and not "Ashkenaz" with Armenia. Note 52 page 149". Well, not exactly. Actually he identified Togormah and Ashkenaz as the same people. From Chapter 1:
Tiras who was the third in descent from Japheth begat three sons: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah. And as Tiras ruled alone over the Thracians, he thought that he should divide his own territories into three parts and hand these over to his sons to possess, and thus he carried out his intent. 13. To Ashkenaz, who first named our people Ashkenazian after himself, he gave the suzerainty over the Sarmatians, and to Riphath that over the Sauromatians, 14. whereas Togarmah inherited our own people, over whom he ruled, and called the former Ashkenazian the House of Togarmah from his own name. 15. You now know why we are called Ashkenazian as well as the House of Togarmah and thus can be quite certain of the narration concerning the patriarchy of our people, although there are some who give different accounts, and others who tell allegorical epics.
This is in the file ydh1.htm in this edition. Zero talk 12:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
'In the 10th century, History of Armenia' of Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i (1.15) Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia.ref name="Gmirkin" >Russell E. Gmirkin,Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch, T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 2006 p.148 n.42'
cf.'Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i, History of Armenia, 1:14-15. Yovhannes labeled Togarmah a son of Tiras, ruler of the Thracians. The Phrygians of central Anatolia came from Thrace, probably after the fall of the Hittite Empire'.
'In the 10th century, History of Armenia' of Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i (1.15) Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia.
:Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia at Yovhannes Drassanakertc’i, History of Armenia,’ 1:15.
Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the indigenous Israelite tribes of the Middle East.[10][11][12]
All honest Christian, Jewish or Islamic priests are by the definition of their function creationist.
For medieval Jews the term Ashkenaz represented Germany and also France. The historical sense for this terminology lies in the unification of this two lands under Carolingian rule and in close relationship between the Jews of this two countries. Later, after the migration of Jews eastward, the distinction between French and German Jews gradually fully vanished.(Reconstructing Ashkenaz: The Human Face of Franco-German Jewry, 1000–1250 By David Malkiel Preface P1)
So I had no alternative but to fix the damage to the narrative flow by adding this as an addendum to the section. Nishidani ( talk) 17:24, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
What are you doing with the text Nishidani? The text : The Human Face of Franco-German Jewry, 1000–1250 By David Malkiel Preface states "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany but in this study as in the modern usage it refers to France..This make historic sense given the unification of this lands under Carolingian rule and especially because of close cultural ties between the Jews of this two centers....The terminological and cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages." You translated this into : "Given the close links between the Jewish communities of France and Germany following the Carolingian unification, modern studies now use the term Ashkenazi to embrace both the Jews of medieval Germany and France, since the ethnic differences and the terminological distinction between Zarephath (France) and Ashkenaz (Germany) dwindled following the diaspora to Eastern Europe" So what you wiped out was that "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany" and "cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages. This has to go to text as it is the point of whole addition. While you added even an Armenian medieval mythology about the meaning of Ashkenaz you forgot to mention what Ashkenaz actually meant for medieval Ashkenazi Jews.-- Tritomex ( talk) 17:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I refer to source QUOTE "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany So this does not go to modern times and does not mean modern meaning. Also 'The terminological and cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages." does not refer to modern times. It clearly states Middle ages -- Tritomex ( talk) 18:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi to all, I just want to make something clear for everybody. This article is currently undergoing a historical revision and the main user responsible for this is above Nishidani. He attempts, quite successfully and for his own reasons, to completely change the origins of Ashkenazi Jews, to manipulate their DNA studies (on genetic studies on Jews too) as he slowly removes sources on researches that contradict what he promotes. It's okay to add new sources for citation and such but what he does is different: He's scientifically establishing a few specific theories as facts (some of which are considered nothing but conspiracies, like the Khazars one) while deliberately deleting all other inputs/theories, a clear POV pushing and violation of Wikipedia's rules. What I just said can be easily confirmed by checking his contribution and recent writings. This is not the first time I bring this up and I'm definitely not the only one who thinks this way. Intended to whom it may concern, I believe this message could lead to a positive outcome. Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Nishidani is know to me for a long time now as a POV editor, and as an editor who easily take up edit wars. All editors please take this into account, and watch his edits closely. Debresser ( talk) 18:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
(redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loewsdills ( talk • contribs) 04:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the Israelite tribes of the Middle East[10][11][12].
This is an historical claim, and is ambiguous. 'trace one's origins' can refer (i) to a myth or belief about origins underwritten by Ashkenazis (subjective) or (ii) the result of a successful inquiry into one's origins which documents one's real ancestral roots (objective). (d) as it stands 'who' should be 'which'.
The three sources are (i)a university typescript of a lecture given by the anthropologist, Jared Diamond; (b) Nicholas Wade reviewing genetics research; (c) a genetics paper.
the origin of one of the most important Jewish populations, the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, has remained a mystery.' Nicholas Wade, 'Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree,' New York Times, 8 October 2013.
The origins of Ashkenazi Jews are wrapped in controversy,ref name=CostaM. D. Costa and 16 others (2013). "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages". Nature Communications. 4. doi: 10.1038/ncomms3543.
{{ cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list ( link). See sources 1-11. /ref and their history before the Middle Ages remains a mystery.refNicholas Wade, 'Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree,' New York Times, 8 October, 2013:'Still, the origin of one of the most important Jewish populations, the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, has remained a mystery./refref ‘(Was the great Eastern European Jewry of the 19th century preponderantly descended (as is normally believed) from immigrants from the Germanic lands further west who arrived as refugees in the later Middle Ages, bearing with them their culture? Or did these new immigrants find already on their arrival a numerically strong Jewish life, on whom they were able to impose their superior culture, including even their long (a phenomenon not unknown at other times and places – as for example in the 16 century, after the arrival of the highly cultured Spanish exiles in the Turkish Empire)?) Does the line of descent of Ashkenazi Jewry of today go back to a quasi autochthonous Jewry already established in these lands, perhaps even earlier than the time of the earliest Franco-German settlement in the Dark Ages? This is one of the mysteries of Jewish history, which will probably never been solved’ Cecil Roth in Cecil Roth, I. H. Levine The World History of the Jewish People: The Dark Ages, Jews in Christian Europe, 711-1096,. Editors, Volume 11 Jewish historical publications, 1966 p. 379./ref
Since, therefore the lead statement is both poorly sourced and contradicted by other sources, it is POV. It must be removed, and remodulated in terms of a statement either using 'controversy' or 'mystery'. Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't see the harm in specifying their origins in the lead section, because that IS part of who they are. We do have confirmation and reliable sources (which keep getting deleted) that Ashkenazim are Levantine in origin. Evildoer187 ( talk) 19:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Evildoer Recent studies also show that Ashkenazis are related to Italians, why then in related ethnic groups, only near easterners are mentioned? No mention of the obvious mixture with italic peoples in early antiquity, confirmed by the Romano Jewish historian Josephus Flavius. It's obvious that Ashkenazis are of near eastern origin, shouldn't it be obvious that they're of Latin origin as well? Please reply as I'm very confused about this issue. Thanks in advance. Guy355 ( talk) 14:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Guy, it's because the Related Ethnic Groups section pertains to groups who share more than just genetics in common, but also common geographic origin, culture, language, traditions, etc. I do agree that more sources on those should be added. Evildoer187 ( talk) 20:16, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't feed the trolls. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
http://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html Just an inbreed group of Europeans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanatosxrx ( talk • contribs) 09:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Ah, good ole JIDF shill. Hey Nishidani. I see you've managed to take the claim that European Jews are not semitic peoples as "omgz yous being antisemitics!!!". Try harder? 106.68.132.67 ( talk) 09:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC) Harlequin Awww look, there's even comments in here from people who thinks it's okay to call a group of millions of people "inbreds". It's funny how the poster above actually doesn't think that calling the Ashkenazim inbreds is antisemitic, I guess bigotry doesn't bother him if it's against people he doesn't like. Kitty ( talk) 19:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC) If this study is true, then why aren't "other Europeans" mentioned in the related ethnic groups? Why are only near easterners mentioned? It's as if you'll say Latinos are only of native American origin. Guy355 ( talk) 14:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC) |
I edited the introduction to take into account the latest DNA findings suggesting a European origin for Ashkenazi Jews. It would be POV to use these results to claim that Ashkenazis are of European origin, but it was just as POV of the introduction to claim that they are of Levantine origin. It's a fact that good, serious peer-reviewed scientific DNA studies have arrived at different views. Our job is not to take sides between these, but to report them. If a major scientific consensus develops for one view or the other, the article should reflect that. As long as there is no such consensus, the article should report both views without taking sides. Jeppiz ( talk) 11:34, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Ashkenazi Jews are thought to have begun settling along the Rhine in Germany in the year 321[24]
In a rather extreme display of POV-pushing Evildoer187 removed all references in both the introduction and the infobox to Ashkenazi Jews possibly being of European decent. Rather revealingly, only DNA studies saying that Ashkenazis are of European origins were removed, while studies saying that they are of Middle Eastern origins were left intact. In other words, the user does not disagree with presenting findings from DNA-studies, only with studies not representing his/her WP:TRUTH. POV-pushing rarely comes in more obvious forms than this. Once again: serious peer-reviewed scientific DNA studies have arrived at different views. Our job is not to take sides between these, but to report them. If a major scientific consensus develops for one view or the other, the article should reflect that. As long as there is no such consensus, the article should report both views without taking sides. Deleting sourced content is considered vandalisms, and further violations will be reported. Jeppiz ( talk) 18:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
There aren't any DNA studies that suggest that Ashkenazim are purely of European origin, at most the origin is partial (maternal origins). The study does make this pretty clear. This seems like an unfortunately all-too-common attempt to disenfranchise. Also, I agree that the news sources used are unnecessary because the study is already cited. Kitty ( talk) 19:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
WARNING: Further editing without establishing consensus will lead to a post on WP:ANI asking for blocks and page protection. And this time the issue will not be considered a content issue, rather a behavioral issue. Debresser ( talk) 13:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
How does one achieve consensus when the other side is not willing to listen? I think an RfC is in order. Evildoer187 ( talk) 15:47, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Most of the History of Jews in Europe before the Ashkenazim section has nothing to do with Ashkenazi, matter of this sort is totally absent from the sister article on the Ashkenazi in the Jewish Virtual Library. It has absolutely no function here. I removed it once. Could editors discuss why this extensive blob of irrelevancies is there? (I note that the Cambridge UP 1984 source, which we all agreed was wrongly cited with false authorial names, omitting the name of the author of p.1042 etc., should have been removed. It's still in that section. Nishidani ( talk) 21:40, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
Duplication|section=yes|dupe=Jewish history}}
.
Debresser (
talk) 00:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
The origins of Ashkenazi Jews remain highly controversial. Like Judaism, mitochondrial DNA is passed along the maternal line. Its variation in the Ashkenazim is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. However, due to their rarity in the general population, these founders have been difficult to trace to a source. Here we show that all four major founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages were not brought from the Levant, as commonly supposed, nor recruited in the Caucasus, as sometimes suggested, but assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for the conversion of women in the formation of oundation for a detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history.
- http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html
Deserves a mention. The first para to this article is pretty ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.36.197 ( talk) 06:42, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Compare Shira Schoenberg, Ashkenazim at the Jewish Virtual Library to our history. Nothing there gives us what we have here, because the following 'stuff' has nothing to do with the Ashkenazim.
After the Roman empire had overpowered the Jewish resistance in the First Jewish–Roman War in Judea and destroyed the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, the complete Roman takeover of Judea followed the Bar Kokhba rebellion of 132–135 CE. Though their numbers were greatly reduced, Jews continued to populate large parts of Judea province (renamed Palaestina), remaining a majority in Galilee for several hundred years. But, the Romans no longer recognized the authority of the Sanhedrin or any other Jewish body, and Jews were prohibited from living in Jerusalem. Outside the Roman Empire, a large Jewish community remained in Mesopotamia. Other Jewish populations could be found dispersed around the Mediterranean region, with the largest concentrations in the Levant, Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece, and Italy, including Rome. Many Jews were denied full Roman citizenship until 212 CE, when Emperor Caracalla granted all free peoples this privilege. Josephus ben Matthias, a direct-line descendant of the Hasmonaeans, became a Roman citizen and adopted the family name of the Roman Emperor Flavius, before 70 A.D. This was before he accompanied Vespasian's son Titus to Jerusalem and wrote The Antiquities of the Jews (The History of the Jews). As a penalty for the first Jewish Revolt, Jews were required to pay a poll tax until the reign of Emperor Julian in 363. In the late Roman Empire, Jews were free to form networks of cultural and religious ties and enter into various local occupations. But, after Christianity became the official religion of Rome and Constantinople in 380, Jews were increasingly marginalized.In Syria-Palaestina and Mesopotamia, where Jewish religious scholarship was centered, the majority of Jews were still engaged in farming. Early Talmudic writings were concerned with agriculture. In diaspora communities, trade was a common occupation, facilitated by the easy mobility of traders through the dispersed Jewish communities.[citation needed] Throughout this period and into the early Middle Ages, some Jews assimilated into the dominant Greek and Latin cultures, mostly through conversion to Christianity.[43] A remnant of this Greek-speaking Jewish population (the Romaniotes) survives to this day. In Mesopotamia, and in Persian lands free of Roman imperial domination, Jewish life fared better. Since the conquest of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar II, this community had always been the leading diaspora community, a rival to the leadership of Judea. After conditions for Jews began to deteriorate in Roman-controlled lands, many of the religious leaders of Judea and the Galilee fled to the east. At the academies of Pumbeditha and Sura near Babylon, Rabbinic Judaism based on Talmudic learning began to emerge and assert its authority over Jewish life throughout the diaspora. Rabbinic Judaism created a religious mandate for literacy, requiring all Jewish males to learn Hebrew and read from the Torah. Jewish minorities in both Christian and Islamic lands achieved a higher literacy rate than the majority of gentiles, which M. Botticini and Z. Eckstein suggest gave them an advantage to fulfill urban commercial and financial roles.[44] In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz. Jewish traders from Baghdad began to travel to the west, renewing Jewish life in the western Mediterranean region.[45] They brought with them Rabbinic Judaism and Babylonian Talmudic scholarship.
This has suffered extensively from edit-warring, and the result has been extensive use of scratchy sources. The history of the Jews is extensively documented by many solid academic books, and articles. It's not hard to use this, instead of scrounging about for snippets from the internet. I did a preliminary edit for the early (pre-)history mainly consisting in the removal of all of those paragraphs which had no place here, dealing as they did with Jews in Persia and the Middle East with no connection to the subject of this article. I'd be quite willing to leave the article if a few people out there could subscribe to the idea that academic sources cover all the bases, and we should use them. Nishidani ( talk) 14:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
In Mesopotamia, and in Persian lands free of Roman imperial domination, Jewish life fared better. Since the conquest of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar II, this community had always been the leading diaspora community, a rival to the leadership of Judea. After conditions for Jews began to deteriorate in Roman-controlled lands, many of the religious leaders of Judea and the Galilee fled to the east. At the academies of Pumbeditha and Sura near Babylon, Rabbinic Judaism based on Talmudic learning began to emerge and assert its authority over Jewish life throughout the diaspora. Rabbinic Judaism created a religious mandate for literacy, requiring all Jewish males to learn Hebrew and read from the Torah. Jewish minorities in both Christian and Islamic lands achieved a higher literacy rate than the majority of gentiles, which M. Botticini and Z. Eckstein suggest gave them an advantage to fulfill urban commercial and financial roles.[44] In the Caliphate of Baghdad, Jews took on many of the financial occupations that they would later hold in the cities of Ashkenaz. Jewish traders from Baghdad began to travel to the west, renewing Jewish life in the western Mediterranean region.[45] They brought with them Rabbinic Judaism and Babylonian Talmudic scholarship.
Mesopotamia is mentioned as the focal point of Jewish migrations, birth place of Talmud and in this context it is important in understanding Ashkenazi Jews. Also, the sections explains the reasons of migration of Jews from Palestine to Europe-which is considered by some scholars as the main root of migrations of Ashkenazi Jews. The patterns of Jewish migrations and trade which brought Talmud to Europe are also very important in understanding Jewish history. The same goes for the understanding of traditional Ashekanzi occupations which were brought to Ashkeanzi Jews by Jewish traders from Near East and South West Asia. I do not see anything objectionable here.-- Tritomex ( talk) 23:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
The same goes for the understanding of traditional Ashekanzi occupations which were brought to Ashkeanzi Jews by Jewish traders from Near East and South West Asia.
I reverted this edit because it is technically false. But there is a problem in the source, a source by the way that I found on the page and had no alternative but to use it.
Where and when, during the first post-Christian millenium, eastern European Jewry came to be labelled with the Hebrew name of their Scythian neighbours on the Blackl Sea steppe is unknown, but ever since then it has been Ashkenazi.'
is espousing the Khazar thesis, but the facts do not allow this conclusion. Ashkenazim came into use to refer to European Jews east of the Spanish Sephardic communities, I guess, wherever they might have been, but certainly not in the sense of of 'eastern European Jewry' particularly since it was used of the French and German communities at that time. When one encounters this kind of misleading evidence in RS, one should, as here, enter it, and then go for a better source which specifies that Ashkenazi 'came to refer' to European Jews' so that the otherwise respectable Rs's POv can be remodulated. Nishidani ( talk) 18:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
Tritomex wrote in an edit summary, "Yovhannes Drasxanakertc associated "Togormah" and not "Ashkenaz" with Armenia. Note 52 page 149". Well, not exactly. Actually he identified Togormah and Ashkenaz as the same people. From Chapter 1:
Tiras who was the third in descent from Japheth begat three sons: Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah. And as Tiras ruled alone over the Thracians, he thought that he should divide his own territories into three parts and hand these over to his sons to possess, and thus he carried out his intent. 13. To Ashkenaz, who first named our people Ashkenazian after himself, he gave the suzerainty over the Sarmatians, and to Riphath that over the Sauromatians, 14. whereas Togarmah inherited our own people, over whom he ruled, and called the former Ashkenazian the House of Togarmah from his own name. 15. You now know why we are called Ashkenazian as well as the House of Togarmah and thus can be quite certain of the narration concerning the patriarchy of our people, although there are some who give different accounts, and others who tell allegorical epics.
This is in the file ydh1.htm in this edition. Zero talk 12:28, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
'In the 10th century, History of Armenia' of Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i (1.15) Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia.ref name="Gmirkin" >Russell E. Gmirkin,Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch, T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 2006 p.148 n.42'
cf.'Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i, History of Armenia, 1:14-15. Yovhannes labeled Togarmah a son of Tiras, ruler of the Thracians. The Phrygians of central Anatolia came from Thrace, probably after the fall of the Hittite Empire'.
'In the 10th century, History of Armenia' of Yovhannes Drasxanakertc'i (1.15) Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia.
:Ashkenaz was associated with Armenia at Yovhannes Drassanakertc’i, History of Armenia,’ 1:15.
Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the indigenous Israelite tribes of the Middle East.[10][11][12]
All honest Christian, Jewish or Islamic priests are by the definition of their function creationist.
For medieval Jews the term Ashkenaz represented Germany and also France. The historical sense for this terminology lies in the unification of this two lands under Carolingian rule and in close relationship between the Jews of this two countries. Later, after the migration of Jews eastward, the distinction between French and German Jews gradually fully vanished.(Reconstructing Ashkenaz: The Human Face of Franco-German Jewry, 1000–1250 By David Malkiel Preface P1)
So I had no alternative but to fix the damage to the narrative flow by adding this as an addendum to the section. Nishidani ( talk) 17:24, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
What are you doing with the text Nishidani? The text : The Human Face of Franco-German Jewry, 1000–1250 By David Malkiel Preface states "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany but in this study as in the modern usage it refers to France..This make historic sense given the unification of this lands under Carolingian rule and especially because of close cultural ties between the Jews of this two centers....The terminological and cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages." You translated this into : "Given the close links between the Jewish communities of France and Germany following the Carolingian unification, modern studies now use the term Ashkenazi to embrace both the Jews of medieval Germany and France, since the ethnic differences and the terminological distinction between Zarephath (France) and Ashkenaz (Germany) dwindled following the diaspora to Eastern Europe" So what you wiped out was that "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany" and "cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages. This has to go to text as it is the point of whole addition. While you added even an Armenian medieval mythology about the meaning of Ashkenaz you forgot to mention what Ashkenaz actually meant for medieval Ashkenazi Jews.-- Tritomex ( talk) 17:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I refer to source QUOTE "For Jews living in medieval Europe, Ashkenaz refereed to Germany So this does not go to modern times and does not mean modern meaning. Also 'The terminological and cultural distinction between France and Germany faded following eastward migration of large numbers of Central European Jews in Middle ages." does not refer to modern times. It clearly states Middle ages -- Tritomex ( talk) 18:06, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi to all, I just want to make something clear for everybody. This article is currently undergoing a historical revision and the main user responsible for this is above Nishidani. He attempts, quite successfully and for his own reasons, to completely change the origins of Ashkenazi Jews, to manipulate their DNA studies (on genetic studies on Jews too) as he slowly removes sources on researches that contradict what he promotes. It's okay to add new sources for citation and such but what he does is different: He's scientifically establishing a few specific theories as facts (some of which are considered nothing but conspiracies, like the Khazars one) while deliberately deleting all other inputs/theories, a clear POV pushing and violation of Wikipedia's rules. What I just said can be easily confirmed by checking his contribution and recent writings. This is not the first time I bring this up and I'm definitely not the only one who thinks this way. Intended to whom it may concern, I believe this message could lead to a positive outcome. Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:58, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Nishidani is know to me for a long time now as a POV editor, and as an editor who easily take up edit wars. All editors please take this into account, and watch his edits closely. Debresser ( talk) 18:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
(redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loewsdills ( talk • contribs) 04:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
a Jewish ethnic division who trace their origins to the Israelite tribes of the Middle East[10][11][12].
This is an historical claim, and is ambiguous. 'trace one's origins' can refer (i) to a myth or belief about origins underwritten by Ashkenazis (subjective) or (ii) the result of a successful inquiry into one's origins which documents one's real ancestral roots (objective). (d) as it stands 'who' should be 'which'.
The three sources are (i)a university typescript of a lecture given by the anthropologist, Jared Diamond; (b) Nicholas Wade reviewing genetics research; (c) a genetics paper.
the origin of one of the most important Jewish populations, the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, has remained a mystery.' Nicholas Wade, 'Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree,' New York Times, 8 October 2013.
The origins of Ashkenazi Jews are wrapped in controversy,ref name=CostaM. D. Costa and 16 others (2013). "A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages". Nature Communications. 4. doi: 10.1038/ncomms3543.
{{ cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list ( link). See sources 1-11. /ref and their history before the Middle Ages remains a mystery.refNicholas Wade, 'Genes Suggest European Women at Root of Ashkenazi Family Tree,' New York Times, 8 October, 2013:'Still, the origin of one of the most important Jewish populations, the Ashkenazim of Central and Eastern Europe, has remained a mystery./refref ‘(Was the great Eastern European Jewry of the 19th century preponderantly descended (as is normally believed) from immigrants from the Germanic lands further west who arrived as refugees in the later Middle Ages, bearing with them their culture? Or did these new immigrants find already on their arrival a numerically strong Jewish life, on whom they were able to impose their superior culture, including even their long (a phenomenon not unknown at other times and places – as for example in the 16 century, after the arrival of the highly cultured Spanish exiles in the Turkish Empire)?) Does the line of descent of Ashkenazi Jewry of today go back to a quasi autochthonous Jewry already established in these lands, perhaps even earlier than the time of the earliest Franco-German settlement in the Dark Ages? This is one of the mysteries of Jewish history, which will probably never been solved’ Cecil Roth in Cecil Roth, I. H. Levine The World History of the Jewish People: The Dark Ages, Jews in Christian Europe, 711-1096,. Editors, Volume 11 Jewish historical publications, 1966 p. 379./ref
Since, therefore the lead statement is both poorly sourced and contradicted by other sources, it is POV. It must be removed, and remodulated in terms of a statement either using 'controversy' or 'mystery'. Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
I don't see the harm in specifying their origins in the lead section, because that IS part of who they are. We do have confirmation and reliable sources (which keep getting deleted) that Ashkenazim are Levantine in origin. Evildoer187 ( talk) 19:22, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Evildoer Recent studies also show that Ashkenazis are related to Italians, why then in related ethnic groups, only near easterners are mentioned? No mention of the obvious mixture with italic peoples in early antiquity, confirmed by the Romano Jewish historian Josephus Flavius. It's obvious that Ashkenazis are of near eastern origin, shouldn't it be obvious that they're of Latin origin as well? Please reply as I'm very confused about this issue. Thanks in advance. Guy355 ( talk) 14:19, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
Guy, it's because the Related Ethnic Groups section pertains to groups who share more than just genetics in common, but also common geographic origin, culture, language, traditions, etc. I do agree that more sources on those should be added. Evildoer187 ( talk) 20:16, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Don't feed the trolls. -- Jprg1966 (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
http://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html Just an inbreed group of Europeans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thanatosxrx ( talk • contribs) 09:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Ah, good ole JIDF shill. Hey Nishidani. I see you've managed to take the claim that European Jews are not semitic peoples as "omgz yous being antisemitics!!!". Try harder? 106.68.132.67 ( talk) 09:08, 29 November 2013 (UTC) Harlequin Awww look, there's even comments in here from people who thinks it's okay to call a group of millions of people "inbreds". It's funny how the poster above actually doesn't think that calling the Ashkenazim inbreds is antisemitic, I guess bigotry doesn't bother him if it's against people he doesn't like. Kitty ( talk) 19:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC) If this study is true, then why aren't "other Europeans" mentioned in the related ethnic groups? Why are only near easterners mentioned? It's as if you'll say Latinos are only of native American origin. Guy355 ( talk) 14:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC) |
I edited the introduction to take into account the latest DNA findings suggesting a European origin for Ashkenazi Jews. It would be POV to use these results to claim that Ashkenazis are of European origin, but it was just as POV of the introduction to claim that they are of Levantine origin. It's a fact that good, serious peer-reviewed scientific DNA studies have arrived at different views. Our job is not to take sides between these, but to report them. If a major scientific consensus develops for one view or the other, the article should reflect that. As long as there is no such consensus, the article should report both views without taking sides. Jeppiz ( talk) 11:34, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Ashkenazi Jews are thought to have begun settling along the Rhine in Germany in the year 321[24]
In a rather extreme display of POV-pushing Evildoer187 removed all references in both the introduction and the infobox to Ashkenazi Jews possibly being of European decent. Rather revealingly, only DNA studies saying that Ashkenazis are of European origins were removed, while studies saying that they are of Middle Eastern origins were left intact. In other words, the user does not disagree with presenting findings from DNA-studies, only with studies not representing his/her WP:TRUTH. POV-pushing rarely comes in more obvious forms than this. Once again: serious peer-reviewed scientific DNA studies have arrived at different views. Our job is not to take sides between these, but to report them. If a major scientific consensus develops for one view or the other, the article should reflect that. As long as there is no such consensus, the article should report both views without taking sides. Deleting sourced content is considered vandalisms, and further violations will be reported. Jeppiz ( talk) 18:43, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
There aren't any DNA studies that suggest that Ashkenazim are purely of European origin, at most the origin is partial (maternal origins). The study does make this pretty clear. This seems like an unfortunately all-too-common attempt to disenfranchise. Also, I agree that the news sources used are unnecessary because the study is already cited. Kitty ( talk) 19:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
WARNING: Further editing without establishing consensus will lead to a post on WP:ANI asking for blocks and page protection. And this time the issue will not be considered a content issue, rather a behavioral issue. Debresser ( talk) 13:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
How does one achieve consensus when the other side is not willing to listen? I think an RfC is in order. Evildoer187 ( talk) 15:47, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Most of the History of Jews in Europe before the Ashkenazim section has nothing to do with Ashkenazi, matter of this sort is totally absent from the sister article on the Ashkenazi in the Jewish Virtual Library. It has absolutely no function here. I removed it once. Could editors discuss why this extensive blob of irrelevancies is there? (I note that the Cambridge UP 1984 source, which we all agreed was wrongly cited with false authorial names, omitting the name of the author of p.1042 etc., should have been removed. It's still in that section. Nishidani ( talk) 21:40, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
Duplication|section=yes|dupe=Jewish history}}
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Debresser (
talk) 00:25, 27 December 2013 (UTC)