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Major error identified. This needs urgent attention. The image " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Taq-1.png" which is shown on the right side of the Religion and state section does not belong in this article. On the text under the picture it is claimed that it is Ardeshir (Ardeshir I) that receives his kingship while it is Ardashir II that is decipted according to both the entry for Ardrshir II and the Sassanid Empire.
The image and text beneath it needs to be removed from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.122.26.70 ( talk) 15:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
sasanid is third persian empire,hakhamaneshian ,parthian (arsacid , ashkanian)and then sasanid
Both the French wiki and Farrokh's recent book Shadows in the desert have Ardeshir born in Persis (Farrokh in Tirdeh). That is a far cry from Balkh!. 75.178.177.135 ( talk) 03:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC) nl:Gebruiker:Jcwf
Ardeshir I —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.70.254 ( talk) 18:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
According to some sources, Ardashir is recorded to have married his own mother. This is a practice that was common among the royal families in Zoroastrian societies. Yazdgerd II, for example, married his own daughter. Its called khvaetvadatha. I believe this fact should be mentioned. Its mentioned in the following book in details:
'Close Relationships: Incest and Inbreeding in Classical Arabic Literature' by G. J. H. van Gelder, Pg 73, Published 2005 - -- Theotherguy1 ( talk) 12:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I've just replaced some material deleted with no explanation, then found this on the editor's talk page, so I'm copying it here. Dougweller ( talk) 05:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I am new to this , Im not familiar to the whole editing process yet, but regarding the article of ArdeshirI , I must say we can not include assumptions into historical articles like these,Shahnameh is not a reliable historical source since as we all know Shahnameh is based on a mixture of historical and mythical events ,also it is known that the language of the Sassanid dynasty was Middle Persian which is the ancestry language of modern Persian NOT Kurdish , the Persian language belongs to the south western branch of Iranian languages while Kurdish or Median both belong to North western Iranian languages , so If we asume that Ardeshir I Sassanid was a Kurd then he must have had a North Iranian language as mother tounge not south western Iranian or Persian .
Also there are way too many sources such as the exchanged diplomatic letters bewtween Sasanid Royals and Chinese, Arabic and Byzantine officials where clearly the term King of Persia or Pars are used , If the Sassanids had Kurdish lineage surely they would have rejected to this usage . One example is Constantine Augustus letter to Shapur ,where he clearly sates , CONSTANTINE AUGUSTUS TO SAPOR, KING OF THE PERSIANS
Other reliable sources are Chinese sources ,like the story of Pirooz written in a formal and ancient aristocratic Chinese language. It was quite tough, but with the help of my Chinese friends and associates I got through it. It was written by Prince Nah-shieh (Narseh), who was the son of Prince Pirooz, who was the son of King Yazdgerd III-- the last Sasanid king of Persia. Narseh was a Chinese general stationed in the Tang Chinese military garrisons in what are today's Afghanistan, Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan.
In 751 A.D., the Chinese lost a decisive battle to the Arabs at Talas (now in Uzbekistan), and they retreated from their colonies in Central Asia. All the garrisons shut down, and the armies fled back into China. Many Persians and Sogdians followed the Chinese back into China and abandoned their homes in Central Asia in wake of the Muslim Arabic invasions. Some Sogdians came as widows who then married Chinese soldiers along with their orphaned children.
Pirooz requested only a simple burial and the Chinese emperor approved. The entire exiled court was in attendance along with the Chinese emperor. The Chinese emperor held Peroz's shaking hands. Pirooz looked west and said:
"I have done what I could for my homeland (Persia) and I have no regrets." Then, he looked east and said: "I am grateful to China, my new homeland." Then he looked at his immediate family and all the Persians in attendance and said: "Contribute your talents and devote it to the emperor. We are no longer Persians. We are now Chinese."
Then, he died peacefully. A beautiful horse was made to gallop around his coffin 33 times before burial, because this was the number of military victories he had during his lifetime. Pirooz was a great Chinese general and great Persian prince devoted and loyal to his people.
Notice that Persians are mentioned as Barsi in this scipt , due the lack of Letter P in Chinese language .yet clearly Persians are separated from Parthians , Scythians and of course Medians in all sources from Arabic to Indian, Chinese, Roman and Budheist . — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthPosterIrani ( talk • contribs)
Farrokh isn't a reliable source, but we may be able to find one. As that page isn't accessible through Google, could you please quote the letter and any details about it, and we should be able to source it elsewhere. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure about this letter (it might be quoted by Tabari) but the term Kurd means completely something different. Here is something on Ardashir: "his victorious campaign against the Kurds (a term that in pre-Islamic times designated the various nomadic lineages, rather than a specific ethnicity" [1]. See also Asatrian which has a important article with regards to the naming: [2]. As you can see, the transformation of the term "Kurd" to the modern ethnicity is a completely post-Islamic phenomenon. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 16:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it so simple? Lets think that, Kurd was a term that designated the various nomadic lineages. Then where were ethnic Kurds at that time? And why the term of Kurd was just used for the people who were living in Kurdistan area? For example, the Kurds who Ardashir faught againist, were living in today's Soran district. In the other hand scholars believe that term of Kurdistan comes from Korduene and it was exist since time of Xenophon. That means, its not the arabic word which represent nomadic people. If we accept the word as you (96.255.251.165) claimed, how will we decide about ethnic Kurds? Ethnic Kurds were born after Islam? (: How did all Kurds or all World suddenly accept term of Kurd as an etchnic lineage? About the point of insult in both letters ( 1, 2), i think thats normal. Ottoman Sultans had named Turks as etrak-i bi idrak = Purblind Turks. (there are similar examples in other kingdoms too) Ottomans werent Turks? Why did they insult to their own nation? So, that means, it was normal when some king or nation had power they scorned others. If we will not accept Kurds of Kurdistan as today's Kurds, then i think you should find a new theory about history of the ethnic Kurds. After islam a new nation was born? And we should say, Ardashir came from a nomadic group and he was not a Persian either. Btw, the thesis of Garnik Asatrian is very funny. But its mostly because politics of Armenia. During last years, Armenians started to find theories about Yezidis that, Yezidi is another nation.If there is real Kurd, that should be Yezidi. Because other all Kurds (as an effect of islam) got connections with Turks, Arabs and other middle eastern nations and they have changed genetically. Therefore, i just see his theory as a fear of Armenia. They just want to assimilate and control Kurdish community in Armenia. No need to discuss his theories.-- Gomada ( talk) 19:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC
Farrokh isn't a reliable source, but we may be able to find one. As that page isn't accessible through Google, could you please quote the letter and any details about it, and we should be able to source it elsewhere. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure about this letter (it might be quoted by Tabari) but the term Kurd means completely something different. Here is something on Ardashir: "his victorious campaign against the Kurds (a term that in pre-Islamic times designated the various nomadic lineages, rather than a specific ethnicity" [3]. See also Asatrian which has a important article with regards to the naming: [4]. As you can see, the transformation of the term "Kurd" to the modern ethnicity is a completely post-Islamic phenomenon. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 16:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it so simple? Lets think that, Kurd was a term that designated the various nomadic lineages. Then where were ethnic Kurds at that time? And why the term of Kurd was just used for the people who were living in Kurdistan area? For example, the Kurds who Ardashir faught againist, were living in today's Soran district. In the other hand scholars believe that term of Kurdistan comes from Korduene and it was exist since time of Xenophon. That means, its not the arabic word which represent nomadic people. If we accept the word as you (96.255.251.165) claimed, how will we decide about ethnic Kurds? Ethnic Kurds were born after Islam? (: How did all Kurds or all World suddenly accept term of Kurd as an etchnic lineage? About the point of insult in both letters ( 1, 2), i think thats normal. Ottoman Sultans had named Turks as etrak-i bi idrak = Purblind Turks. (there are similar examples in other kingdoms too) Ottomans werent Turks? Why did they insult to their own nation? So, that means, it was normal when some king or nation had power they scorned others. If we will not accept Kurds of Kurdistan as today's Kurds, then i think you should find a new theory about history of the ethnic Kurds. After islam a new nation was born? And we should say, Ardashir came from a nomadic group and he was not a Persian either. Btw, the thesis of Garnik Asatrian is very funny. But its mostly because politics of Armenia. During last years, Armenians started to find theories about Yezidis that, Yezidi is another nation.If there is real Kurd, that should be Yezidi. Because other all Kurds (as an effect of islam) got connections with Turks, Arabs and other middle eastern nations and they have changed genetically. Therefore, i just see his theory as a fear of Armenia. They just want to assimilate and control Kurdish community in Armenia. No need to discuss his theories.-- Gomada ( talk) 19:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
related to Persian, or southwest Iranian."
Kurds, but were nomadic tribes speaking Southwest Iranian dialect related to-modern Luri and Persian. But getting back to the issue at hand, "John Limbert (1968): The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, pp. 41-51."
Looks like there is four issues, the second issue now being Shabankareh which I shall deal with separately as I will with SharafKhan and Lurs, and finally what primary sources say about Ardashir himself. However, wikipedia is not a discussion of primary sources but of secondary reliable sources supporting the primary sources.
Kurds, but were nomadic tribes speaking Southwest Iranian dialect related to-modern Luri and Persian." (John Limbert (1968): The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, pp. 41-51.".)
As per Lurs or Baluchs or Daylamites being called Kurds in the post-Islamic era..it is the same issue of nomadic lifestyle and not to do with the more modern evolution of the term.
The PERSIAN TRIBES The tribes are divided into three races-Toorks, Leks and Arabs. The first are the invaders from Toorkistan, who, from time 'immemorial, have established themselves in Persia, and who still preserve their language. The Leks form the clans of genuine Persian blood, such as the Loors, Bekhtiaris. To them might be added the Koords, as members of the Persian family; but their numbers in the dominions of the Shah are comparatively few, the greater part of that widely-spread people being attached to Turkey. Collectively the Koords are so numerous that they might be regarded as a nation divided into distinct tribes. Who are the Leks, and who are the Koords? This inquiry I cannot solve. I never met anyone in Persia, either eel or moolla, who could give the least elucidation of this question. All they could say was, that both these races were Foors e kadeem,-old Persians. They both speak dialects the greater part of which is Persian, bearing a strong resemblance to the colloquial language of the present day, divested of its large Arabic mixture. These dialects are not perfectly alike, though it is said that Leks and Koords are able to comprehend each other. One would be disposed to consider them as belonging to the same stock,. did they not both disavow the connection. A Lek will- admit that a Koord, like himself, is an “old Persian"(Foors-e-Qadim) but he denies that the families are identical, and a Koord views the question in the same light."
[10] Joseph Wiesehöfer), Ardashir I, Encylopaedia Iranica Iranica has examined all angles and it has mentioned Tabari as well.
So these are the only sources that mention the ancestry of Ardashir based on primary sources.. Later Islamic dynasties (Daylamite (Buyid), Samanids, Shabankareh, Sharvanshahs..and even Ghaznavids,..tried to claim descendant from Sassanids). However it does not not work backward.-- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 01:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to conclude the above, since I basically had to use many secondary sources:
Ok the topic is, Ardashir's ancestry. I hope, you dont claim people as nationalist just because, they try to tell the true about their nation. Ok you always repeat, John Limbert says this, accepts that. Who is John Limbert? He was a Ph.d candidate and a diplomat when he had claims about Kurdish identity, kurdish tribes of Fars! How can he be so reliable source? He just has his own ideas, he compares his theory with Yasami and he (Limbert) also accept, we cant proof that The tribes of Fars region were not real Kurds. So, can you stop to tell us his claims?-- Gomada ( talk) 21:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Well this is what van Bruinessen asserts. Martin van Bruinessen. "The ethnic identity of the Kurds", in: Ethnic groups in the Republic of Turkey, compiled and edited by Peter Alford Andrews with Rüdiger Benninghaus [=Beihefte zum Tübinger Atlas des Vorderen Orients, Reihe B, Nr.60]. Wiesbaden: Dr. Ludwich Reichert, 1989, pp. 613-21. The ruler of the autonomous Kurdish emirate of Bitlis, Sharaf al-Din Khan, composed a history of the Kurds, Sharafnama (1005/1596), in which he compiled detailed information on Kurdish dynasties of the past and all tribes of his day. He included Sunnis and Yezidis as well as Alevi Kurds, and the speakers of Zaza as well as of Kurmanji dialects, and even such groups that would not be considered as Kurds today, such as the Lor and Bahtiyari in Iran. Both authors paid little attention to the lower strata of society; where they spoke of Kurds they seemed to mean the ruling families and their tribal followers only. Not all tribesmen, it should be stressed, were pastoral nomads or transhumants. There were also sedentary tribesmen, who were free cultivators or had become townsmen..".
Best wishes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.145.11 ( talk) 21:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I changed him being from a Persian family to being from an Iranian family. According to Ardavan I, the emperor of the Parthian Empire, Ardashir was from a Kurdish family. In Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan, Ardavan I writes to Ardashir:
You've bitten off more than you can chew and you have brought death to yourself. O son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds, who gave you permission to put a crown on your head? (Source: J. Limbert (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1.2: pp. 41-51).
It is, therefore, inaccurate to portray him as being Persian, when the Emperor of the Parthian Empire referred to him as being a song of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds.
Whether Kurd 2000 years ago had the same meaning as Kurd today is irrelevant. It is an established fact that Kurds are an heterogenous nation (meaning: combination of various Iranian nations who inhabited the Iranian plateau). The fact is, he was known as a Kurd when he lived, and it is, therefore, historically inaccurate to portray him as having been a Persian simply because you think/believe the meaning of Kurd has changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 12:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
People accept that the Persians 2500 years ago were the same as the Persians today. Why is that? Persians, just like Kurds, are also a result of various Iranian tribes in Fars Region uniting, and they become known as Persians.
It is, to be honest, quite pathetic that Persians, Turks and Arabs try to discredit Kurds by claiming that the Kurds of today have nothing to do with Kurds of 5000 years ago. Since 5000 years, people living in the region that is today known as Kurdistan, have been referred to as being Kurds (or ancient variations of the same name, for example Karda and Kardu). I suppose is part of the Turkish-Arab-Persian effort to destroy the Kurdish history and heritage. If Kurdistan was an independent country, this falsfication of history by Persian, Turkish and Arab nationalsit would not have happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 12:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Source: Ardavan's (Parthian king) writing in the book Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan.
Source 2: The Rise of the Sassian Dynasty: House of Sassan screenshot: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZW9JZsWYAA8vv8.png.
Attested that Ardashir was born a Kurd in the Shaban tribe. Shaban tribe exists today, and identify as Kurds, and are from Kermanshah in Iranian Kurdistan ( /info/en/?search=Shabankara).
I don't get where you get him being Persian from. The only actual sources from that time refer to him as being a Kurd, not a Persian. It is completely irrelevant whether Kurd was a general term or not. The fact is, he was known as a Kurd and people of that time identified him as such (a Kurd). They did not identify him as a Persian. So I fail to see your logic to identify him as Persian instead. 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 14:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 14:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
This article has lots of irrelevant and rather weirdly worded information. Also, the citations aren't cited properly (no pages or links), I can't even find most of the sources. Furthermore, lots of the information in the article is not about Ardashir, but history of the events leading up to Ardashir. I plan to fix all this in the nearest future - do note that article will most likely be a lot shorter, since lots of irrelevant/badly cited stuff is gonna get removed/replaced. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 02:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
Many people say that the word Kurd in the letter from Artabanus means nomad, but in the book Karnamag-i ardeşiri babekan. Do you think the Kurdish Med king is called the nomadic Med king Is something possible? The claim of kwrt nomads in Persian is not just nonsense, I would like to inform you that Kurdish is an older and rooted language than Persian. 78.162.144.42 ( talk) 04:18, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
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Major error identified. This needs urgent attention. The image " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Taq-1.png" which is shown on the right side of the Religion and state section does not belong in this article. On the text under the picture it is claimed that it is Ardeshir (Ardeshir I) that receives his kingship while it is Ardashir II that is decipted according to both the entry for Ardrshir II and the Sassanid Empire.
The image and text beneath it needs to be removed from this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.122.26.70 ( talk) 15:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
sasanid is third persian empire,hakhamaneshian ,parthian (arsacid , ashkanian)and then sasanid
Both the French wiki and Farrokh's recent book Shadows in the desert have Ardeshir born in Persis (Farrokh in Tirdeh). That is a far cry from Balkh!. 75.178.177.135 ( talk) 03:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC) nl:Gebruiker:Jcwf
Ardeshir I —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.70.254 ( talk) 18:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
According to some sources, Ardashir is recorded to have married his own mother. This is a practice that was common among the royal families in Zoroastrian societies. Yazdgerd II, for example, married his own daughter. Its called khvaetvadatha. I believe this fact should be mentioned. Its mentioned in the following book in details:
'Close Relationships: Incest and Inbreeding in Classical Arabic Literature' by G. J. H. van Gelder, Pg 73, Published 2005 - -- Theotherguy1 ( talk) 12:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
I've just replaced some material deleted with no explanation, then found this on the editor's talk page, so I'm copying it here. Dougweller ( talk) 05:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I am new to this , Im not familiar to the whole editing process yet, but regarding the article of ArdeshirI , I must say we can not include assumptions into historical articles like these,Shahnameh is not a reliable historical source since as we all know Shahnameh is based on a mixture of historical and mythical events ,also it is known that the language of the Sassanid dynasty was Middle Persian which is the ancestry language of modern Persian NOT Kurdish , the Persian language belongs to the south western branch of Iranian languages while Kurdish or Median both belong to North western Iranian languages , so If we asume that Ardeshir I Sassanid was a Kurd then he must have had a North Iranian language as mother tounge not south western Iranian or Persian .
Also there are way too many sources such as the exchanged diplomatic letters bewtween Sasanid Royals and Chinese, Arabic and Byzantine officials where clearly the term King of Persia or Pars are used , If the Sassanids had Kurdish lineage surely they would have rejected to this usage . One example is Constantine Augustus letter to Shapur ,where he clearly sates , CONSTANTINE AUGUSTUS TO SAPOR, KING OF THE PERSIANS
Other reliable sources are Chinese sources ,like the story of Pirooz written in a formal and ancient aristocratic Chinese language. It was quite tough, but with the help of my Chinese friends and associates I got through it. It was written by Prince Nah-shieh (Narseh), who was the son of Prince Pirooz, who was the son of King Yazdgerd III-- the last Sasanid king of Persia. Narseh was a Chinese general stationed in the Tang Chinese military garrisons in what are today's Afghanistan, Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan.
In 751 A.D., the Chinese lost a decisive battle to the Arabs at Talas (now in Uzbekistan), and they retreated from their colonies in Central Asia. All the garrisons shut down, and the armies fled back into China. Many Persians and Sogdians followed the Chinese back into China and abandoned their homes in Central Asia in wake of the Muslim Arabic invasions. Some Sogdians came as widows who then married Chinese soldiers along with their orphaned children.
Pirooz requested only a simple burial and the Chinese emperor approved. The entire exiled court was in attendance along with the Chinese emperor. The Chinese emperor held Peroz's shaking hands. Pirooz looked west and said:
"I have done what I could for my homeland (Persia) and I have no regrets." Then, he looked east and said: "I am grateful to China, my new homeland." Then he looked at his immediate family and all the Persians in attendance and said: "Contribute your talents and devote it to the emperor. We are no longer Persians. We are now Chinese."
Then, he died peacefully. A beautiful horse was made to gallop around his coffin 33 times before burial, because this was the number of military victories he had during his lifetime. Pirooz was a great Chinese general and great Persian prince devoted and loyal to his people.
Notice that Persians are mentioned as Barsi in this scipt , due the lack of Letter P in Chinese language .yet clearly Persians are separated from Parthians , Scythians and of course Medians in all sources from Arabic to Indian, Chinese, Roman and Budheist . — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthPosterIrani ( talk • contribs)
Farrokh isn't a reliable source, but we may be able to find one. As that page isn't accessible through Google, could you please quote the letter and any details about it, and we should be able to source it elsewhere. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure about this letter (it might be quoted by Tabari) but the term Kurd means completely something different. Here is something on Ardashir: "his victorious campaign against the Kurds (a term that in pre-Islamic times designated the various nomadic lineages, rather than a specific ethnicity" [1]. See also Asatrian which has a important article with regards to the naming: [2]. As you can see, the transformation of the term "Kurd" to the modern ethnicity is a completely post-Islamic phenomenon. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 16:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it so simple? Lets think that, Kurd was a term that designated the various nomadic lineages. Then where were ethnic Kurds at that time? And why the term of Kurd was just used for the people who were living in Kurdistan area? For example, the Kurds who Ardashir faught againist, were living in today's Soran district. In the other hand scholars believe that term of Kurdistan comes from Korduene and it was exist since time of Xenophon. That means, its not the arabic word which represent nomadic people. If we accept the word as you (96.255.251.165) claimed, how will we decide about ethnic Kurds? Ethnic Kurds were born after Islam? (: How did all Kurds or all World suddenly accept term of Kurd as an etchnic lineage? About the point of insult in both letters ( 1, 2), i think thats normal. Ottoman Sultans had named Turks as etrak-i bi idrak = Purblind Turks. (there are similar examples in other kingdoms too) Ottomans werent Turks? Why did they insult to their own nation? So, that means, it was normal when some king or nation had power they scorned others. If we will not accept Kurds of Kurdistan as today's Kurds, then i think you should find a new theory about history of the ethnic Kurds. After islam a new nation was born? And we should say, Ardashir came from a nomadic group and he was not a Persian either. Btw, the thesis of Garnik Asatrian is very funny. But its mostly because politics of Armenia. During last years, Armenians started to find theories about Yezidis that, Yezidi is another nation.If there is real Kurd, that should be Yezidi. Because other all Kurds (as an effect of islam) got connections with Turks, Arabs and other middle eastern nations and they have changed genetically. Therefore, i just see his theory as a fear of Armenia. They just want to assimilate and control Kurdish community in Armenia. No need to discuss his theories.-- Gomada ( talk) 19:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC
Farrokh isn't a reliable source, but we may be able to find one. As that page isn't accessible through Google, could you please quote the letter and any details about it, and we should be able to source it elsewhere. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure about this letter (it might be quoted by Tabari) but the term Kurd means completely something different. Here is something on Ardashir: "his victorious campaign against the Kurds (a term that in pre-Islamic times designated the various nomadic lineages, rather than a specific ethnicity" [3]. See also Asatrian which has a important article with regards to the naming: [4]. As you can see, the transformation of the term "Kurd" to the modern ethnicity is a completely post-Islamic phenomenon. -- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 16:38, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it so simple? Lets think that, Kurd was a term that designated the various nomadic lineages. Then where were ethnic Kurds at that time? And why the term of Kurd was just used for the people who were living in Kurdistan area? For example, the Kurds who Ardashir faught againist, were living in today's Soran district. In the other hand scholars believe that term of Kurdistan comes from Korduene and it was exist since time of Xenophon. That means, its not the arabic word which represent nomadic people. If we accept the word as you (96.255.251.165) claimed, how will we decide about ethnic Kurds? Ethnic Kurds were born after Islam? (: How did all Kurds or all World suddenly accept term of Kurd as an etchnic lineage? About the point of insult in both letters ( 1, 2), i think thats normal. Ottoman Sultans had named Turks as etrak-i bi idrak = Purblind Turks. (there are similar examples in other kingdoms too) Ottomans werent Turks? Why did they insult to their own nation? So, that means, it was normal when some king or nation had power they scorned others. If we will not accept Kurds of Kurdistan as today's Kurds, then i think you should find a new theory about history of the ethnic Kurds. After islam a new nation was born? And we should say, Ardashir came from a nomadic group and he was not a Persian either. Btw, the thesis of Garnik Asatrian is very funny. But its mostly because politics of Armenia. During last years, Armenians started to find theories about Yezidis that, Yezidi is another nation.If there is real Kurd, that should be Yezidi. Because other all Kurds (as an effect of islam) got connections with Turks, Arabs and other middle eastern nations and they have changed genetically. Therefore, i just see his theory as a fear of Armenia. They just want to assimilate and control Kurdish community in Armenia. No need to discuss his theories.-- Gomada ( talk) 19:58, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
related to Persian, or southwest Iranian."
Kurds, but were nomadic tribes speaking Southwest Iranian dialect related to-modern Luri and Persian. But getting back to the issue at hand, "John Limbert (1968): The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, pp. 41-51."
Looks like there is four issues, the second issue now being Shabankareh which I shall deal with separately as I will with SharafKhan and Lurs, and finally what primary sources say about Ardashir himself. However, wikipedia is not a discussion of primary sources but of secondary reliable sources supporting the primary sources.
Kurds, but were nomadic tribes speaking Southwest Iranian dialect related to-modern Luri and Persian." (John Limbert (1968): The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, Vol. 1, No. 2, pp. 41-51.".)
As per Lurs or Baluchs or Daylamites being called Kurds in the post-Islamic era..it is the same issue of nomadic lifestyle and not to do with the more modern evolution of the term.
The PERSIAN TRIBES The tribes are divided into three races-Toorks, Leks and Arabs. The first are the invaders from Toorkistan, who, from time 'immemorial, have established themselves in Persia, and who still preserve their language. The Leks form the clans of genuine Persian blood, such as the Loors, Bekhtiaris. To them might be added the Koords, as members of the Persian family; but their numbers in the dominions of the Shah are comparatively few, the greater part of that widely-spread people being attached to Turkey. Collectively the Koords are so numerous that they might be regarded as a nation divided into distinct tribes. Who are the Leks, and who are the Koords? This inquiry I cannot solve. I never met anyone in Persia, either eel or moolla, who could give the least elucidation of this question. All they could say was, that both these races were Foors e kadeem,-old Persians. They both speak dialects the greater part of which is Persian, bearing a strong resemblance to the colloquial language of the present day, divested of its large Arabic mixture. These dialects are not perfectly alike, though it is said that Leks and Koords are able to comprehend each other. One would be disposed to consider them as belonging to the same stock,. did they not both disavow the connection. A Lek will- admit that a Koord, like himself, is an “old Persian"(Foors-e-Qadim) but he denies that the families are identical, and a Koord views the question in the same light."
[10] Joseph Wiesehöfer), Ardashir I, Encylopaedia Iranica Iranica has examined all angles and it has mentioned Tabari as well.
So these are the only sources that mention the ancestry of Ardashir based on primary sources.. Later Islamic dynasties (Daylamite (Buyid), Samanids, Shabankareh, Sharvanshahs..and even Ghaznavids,..tried to claim descendant from Sassanids). However it does not not work backward.-- 96.255.251.165 ( talk) 01:46, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to conclude the above, since I basically had to use many secondary sources:
Ok the topic is, Ardashir's ancestry. I hope, you dont claim people as nationalist just because, they try to tell the true about their nation. Ok you always repeat, John Limbert says this, accepts that. Who is John Limbert? He was a Ph.d candidate and a diplomat when he had claims about Kurdish identity, kurdish tribes of Fars! How can he be so reliable source? He just has his own ideas, he compares his theory with Yasami and he (Limbert) also accept, we cant proof that The tribes of Fars region were not real Kurds. So, can you stop to tell us his claims?-- Gomada ( talk) 21:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Well this is what van Bruinessen asserts. Martin van Bruinessen. "The ethnic identity of the Kurds", in: Ethnic groups in the Republic of Turkey, compiled and edited by Peter Alford Andrews with Rüdiger Benninghaus [=Beihefte zum Tübinger Atlas des Vorderen Orients, Reihe B, Nr.60]. Wiesbaden: Dr. Ludwich Reichert, 1989, pp. 613-21. The ruler of the autonomous Kurdish emirate of Bitlis, Sharaf al-Din Khan, composed a history of the Kurds, Sharafnama (1005/1596), in which he compiled detailed information on Kurdish dynasties of the past and all tribes of his day. He included Sunnis and Yezidis as well as Alevi Kurds, and the speakers of Zaza as well as of Kurmanji dialects, and even such groups that would not be considered as Kurds today, such as the Lor and Bahtiyari in Iran. Both authors paid little attention to the lower strata of society; where they spoke of Kurds they seemed to mean the ruling families and their tribal followers only. Not all tribesmen, it should be stressed, were pastoral nomads or transhumants. There were also sedentary tribesmen, who were free cultivators or had become townsmen..".
Best wishes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.145.11 ( talk) 21:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I changed him being from a Persian family to being from an Iranian family. According to Ardavan I, the emperor of the Parthian Empire, Ardashir was from a Kurdish family. In Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan, Ardavan I writes to Ardashir:
You've bitten off more than you can chew and you have brought death to yourself. O son of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds, who gave you permission to put a crown on your head? (Source: J. Limbert (1968). The Origins and Appearance of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran. Iranian Studies, 1.2: pp. 41-51).
It is, therefore, inaccurate to portray him as being Persian, when the Emperor of the Parthian Empire referred to him as being a song of a Kurd, raised in the tents of the Kurds.
Whether Kurd 2000 years ago had the same meaning as Kurd today is irrelevant. It is an established fact that Kurds are an heterogenous nation (meaning: combination of various Iranian nations who inhabited the Iranian plateau). The fact is, he was known as a Kurd when he lived, and it is, therefore, historically inaccurate to portray him as having been a Persian simply because you think/believe the meaning of Kurd has changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 12:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
People accept that the Persians 2500 years ago were the same as the Persians today. Why is that? Persians, just like Kurds, are also a result of various Iranian tribes in Fars Region uniting, and they become known as Persians.
It is, to be honest, quite pathetic that Persians, Turks and Arabs try to discredit Kurds by claiming that the Kurds of today have nothing to do with Kurds of 5000 years ago. Since 5000 years, people living in the region that is today known as Kurdistan, have been referred to as being Kurds (or ancient variations of the same name, for example Karda and Kardu). I suppose is part of the Turkish-Arab-Persian effort to destroy the Kurdish history and heritage. If Kurdistan was an independent country, this falsfication of history by Persian, Turkish and Arab nationalsit would not have happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 12:47, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Source: Ardavan's (Parthian king) writing in the book Kar-Namag i Ardashir i Pabagan.
Source 2: The Rise of the Sassian Dynasty: House of Sassan screenshot: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZW9JZsWYAA8vv8.png.
Attested that Ardashir was born a Kurd in the Shaban tribe. Shaban tribe exists today, and identify as Kurds, and are from Kermanshah in Iranian Kurdistan ( /info/en/?search=Shabankara).
I don't get where you get him being Persian from. The only actual sources from that time refer to him as being a Kurd, not a Persian. It is completely irrelevant whether Kurd was a general term or not. The fact is, he was known as a Kurd and people of that time identified him as such (a Kurd). They did not identify him as a Persian. So I fail to see your logic to identify him as Persian instead. 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 14:08, 13 April 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.82.163.173 ( talk) 14:07, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
This article has lots of irrelevant and rather weirdly worded information. Also, the citations aren't cited properly (no pages or links), I can't even find most of the sources. Furthermore, lots of the information in the article is not about Ardashir, but history of the events leading up to Ardashir. I plan to fix all this in the nearest future - do note that article will most likely be a lot shorter, since lots of irrelevant/badly cited stuff is gonna get removed/replaced. -- HistoryofIran ( talk) 02:52, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
Many people say that the word Kurd in the letter from Artabanus means nomad, but in the book Karnamag-i ardeşiri babekan. Do you think the Kurdish Med king is called the nomadic Med king Is something possible? The claim of kwrt nomads in Persian is not just nonsense, I would like to inform you that Kurdish is an older and rooted language than Persian. 78.162.144.42 ( talk) 04:18, 6 July 2022 (UTC)