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Please note that this page is not a soapbox or forum, it is for discussing changes to this article. Tanyia 20:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
For those who care, what is your take on the animal pictured below? I'd like to put this photo into the proper wikipedia article, but I can't decide if this fellow is an overo or a sabino. In favor of overo is horizontal spotting, bald face, dark legs and tail--but his white isn't irregularly edged, and there's not a lot of it. In favor of Sabino are rounded belly spots, white on gaskins and he is somewhat roaned out. Those who know, what's your assessment?
I left my opinion on the
Sabino Horse discussion page - but in a nutshell, I see more sabino traits on this horse than any other overo marking.
Lmocr 20:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I would also say this horse is a sabino. An overo usually has more markings from shoulder to neck. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
142.162.182.9 (
talk) 16:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that "Horse" and "Pony" are actually part of the breed name and not simply tacked on for disambiguation. And there is no consensus that these articles should deviate from the current norm of capitalising every word in the name of a horse breed. The question of whether they should be fully decapitalised (e.g. to American paint horse) was only covered by a few editors, wasn't the original topic of this RM and is definitely better suited to a RfC anyway. There is one exception to all this however, Indian Half-Bred will be moved to Indian Half-bred as by the end of this RM even the nominator was OK with this and it also the one that seemed to cause most concern to many of the opposers. A couple of minor notes to finish: @ Dreadstar: there is absolutely no need to move articles while they are at RM and indeed I would strongly suggest you not do it again (see Wikipedia:Don't move articles at AfD#Corollary) – in addition, the RM admins are not complete morons and are perfectly able to understand that a result of no consensus would default to the long term status quo, especially when it is pointed out several times in the RM. @ SMcCandlish: please don't move articles without an RM when you know that there is very likely to objections. It's all very well to cite WP:BOLD, but the the RM page is quite clear that you should only do so "If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move". Jenks24 ( talk) 15:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
– Restore mass moves of articles done without consultation and in defiance of longstanding consensus of page editors. Though normal capitalization in sentence case is appropriate for many horse and pony breeds, (e.g. Arabian horse, etc.) and a few of the mass moves appropriately did this and are not listed here, for some breeds the word "horse" or "Pony" as an inherent part of their proper name, and thus in these limited situations it should be capitalized. The basic guideline is if a name sounds completely ridiculous if "Horse" is dropped, i.e, we don't call an American Quarter Horse a "quarter." Likewise, "Danish Sport" "German Riding" or "Indian Half" makes no sense; "Costa Rican Saddle" can be confused with equipment, and "Florida Cracker" could be a derogatory description for a person. Further guidance can be seen in breed registry web sites where it is clear that the breed has a complete name as opposed to the mere convenience of adding "horse" or "pony". The American Paint Horse is one of those clear-cut examples, where the breed is not referred to as simply a "paint" (save for informal situations) due to confusion between a mere color breed and the specific breed, that includes certain other genetic characteristics. The others listed here have similar issues. there may be some room for a case-by-case discussion, but this lead article is a clear-cut case. Montanabw (talk) 17:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
puerile and absurd". You're a disgrace to this discussion and need to think carefully about throwing insults at other editors - it is a sign of desperation and does nothing to help your case. -- RexxS ( talk) 10:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus. However, on subjects where there is no global consensus, a local consensus should be taken into account." - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes #Levels of consensus. Should this RM end in no consensus, then I hope that the closer will respect the status quo ante and ArbCom's principle, and accept that the titles should be restored to their previous, stable capitalisation as agreed by WP:EQUINE. -- RexxS ( talk) 22:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The Nokota Horse Association contends it owns the legal trademark for the name and says it is not in competition with the conservancy.". Note that ' breed' in this case is used in its broader sense: "... the term is sometimes used in a very broad sense to define landrace animals, or naturally selected horses of a common phenotype located within a limited geographic region", yet is still capable of being a trademark. -- RexxS ( talk) 11:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Comment: We must respect the name of the animal per the breed standard. If the word horse or pony is part of the breed name we cannot change that here. To do so is to misrepresent the source. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 14:58, 5 June 2014 (UTC))
1. The capitalization proposed here is inconsistent with other categories and even other horse articles. I have to observe that even before I began doing some consistency cleanup in these categories, virtually every single domestic animal article name that contained the species name after the breed name did so in lower case (e.g. Nigora goat, etc.) Virtually all of the rest either incorrectly included a parenthetical disambiguator (e.g. Siamese (cat)), and these have mostly been moved without incident (e.g. to Siamese cat per WP:AT policy to prefer natural disambiguation over parenthetical). Almost no articles had the name of the kind of organism capitalized as some people at the horse project want to do with some but not all of the horse/pony/donkey articles, for no apparent reason on that that they're adjectival breed names. But almost all breed names are, and we're just not doing this to their article names. The horse project haven't made any case for why these names are somehow different from Nigora goat and Siamese cat. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
2. MOS:LIFE has been clear on this for years: "English vernacular ("common") names are given in lower case in article prose.... This applies to ... general names for groups or types of organisms". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
3. Sources do not consistently support the idea that "horse" must be included at all, much less capitalized. What this really comes down to is: "Does a breed like American Paint horse always have 'horse' after it, such that we'd perhaps consider the 'horse' part of the breed name in a way that it is not in Calabrese horse, or is the breed sometimes simply called the 'American Paint', whihout 'horse' at all, capitalized or not?" The answer to this question is provably, clearly, unmistakably that, yes, the name of the breed is "American Paint" (and similar short forms for any such breeds), to which we add "horse" (or "pony" or "donkey") only when necessary for disambiguation. My cousins who own a Tennessee Walking horse say it's a "Tennessee Walking" or "Tennessee Walker" (I seem to recall the latter, mostly) when talking to horse people; they only add "horse" when talking to people who won't get it without the disambiguation. Note the "Paint Stallion Breeders Association" (not "Paint Horse Stallion Breeders Association") and their American Paint Classic race (not "American Paint Horse Classic") [8]. It only takes seconds on Google (or Yandex or whatever) to find "Tennessee Walking horse" (lower-case "horse") in mainstream publications, [9] along with "Tennessee Walking breed" in mixed usage with the "Horse" version [10], and even horse trading sites (i.e. site by and for horse people) not just using but consistently using Tennessee Walker horse" (not -er and lower case "horse). [11] While there's no question that "horsey" sources tend to want to capitalize Horse is not just these but all cases (e.g. Calabrese Horse, and others were even the WP equine wikiproject agrees WP shouldn't be capitalizing), WP does not have to care. Reliable sources for facts on something (horse breed conformation points, for example) are not reliable sources on English language usage for encyclopedic writing. See WP:Specialist style fallacy for a detailed analysis why. But the specialist sources don't even all agree on this. See, e.g. Horse Genetics (Bailey & Brooks, 2nd ed., 2013), which consistently downcases "horse" after the breed name proper, e.g. "the Camarillo White horse" [12]. And here's "the Camarillo White breed" in a U. of Oregon published biology thesis. [13] And so on. I can come up with examples liek this for every single breed name on the list up there, and all the rest of them that should be subject to the same discussion. The fact that horse publications mostly want to capitalize "Horse" is not reason for Wikipedia to do it, too. If we followed that sort of reasoning, we'd simply capitalize everything, since some specialist publication somewhere wants to capitalize it, whether it's art books that capitalize color names, auto suppliers and manuals who capitalize the names of car parts, or ornithology journals and field guides that capitalize the common names of birds. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
4. Category:Horse breeds's own contents disprove the notion that such names "must" be followed by "horse"/"pony" much less that they must be categorized: witness Irish Hobby, Soviet Heavy Draft, Russian Heavy Draft, Vladimir Heavy Draft, etc., and Part-Arabian, Murgese, and so on. See also Australian Draught horse (lower case); note lack of even one case of "Something Draft/Draught Horse" with "Horse" capitalized. Note next that the landslide majority of cases of an adjectival proper name (usually geo-cultural) is followed by "horse" or "pony". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Counting non-horse articles, e.g. on breeds of cats, dogs, goats, sheep, pigs, cattle, chickens, ducks, turkeys, pigeons, etc., etc., many hundreds of articles could end up having the species/type name capitalized along with the breed name; most of them presently are lower case (and always have been; most of my recent moves have been to fix parenthetical disambiguations to use natural disambiguation, per WP:AT). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
I started Talk:Przewalski's_horse#Requested_move, since "horse" is also part of that breed name. There is a very small percentage of horse breeds with "horse" in the name, there should be only a few breeds left to move. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The term painted pony is very common. While it generally refers to American Paint Horse, it has additional connotations. Should there be a redirect: Painted pony → American Paint Horse ? -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:150C:B1E3:96E3:3390 ( talk) 16:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
American Paint Horse article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please note that this page is not a soapbox or forum, it is for discussing changes to this article. Tanyia 20:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
For those who care, what is your take on the animal pictured below? I'd like to put this photo into the proper wikipedia article, but I can't decide if this fellow is an overo or a sabino. In favor of overo is horizontal spotting, bald face, dark legs and tail--but his white isn't irregularly edged, and there's not a lot of it. In favor of Sabino are rounded belly spots, white on gaskins and he is somewhat roaned out. Those who know, what's your assessment?
I left my opinion on the
Sabino Horse discussion page - but in a nutshell, I see more sabino traits on this horse than any other overo marking.
Lmocr 20:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi! I would also say this horse is a sabino. An overo usually has more markings from shoulder to neck. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
142.162.182.9 (
talk) 16:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that "Horse" and "Pony" are actually part of the breed name and not simply tacked on for disambiguation. And there is no consensus that these articles should deviate from the current norm of capitalising every word in the name of a horse breed. The question of whether they should be fully decapitalised (e.g. to American paint horse) was only covered by a few editors, wasn't the original topic of this RM and is definitely better suited to a RfC anyway. There is one exception to all this however, Indian Half-Bred will be moved to Indian Half-bred as by the end of this RM even the nominator was OK with this and it also the one that seemed to cause most concern to many of the opposers. A couple of minor notes to finish: @ Dreadstar: there is absolutely no need to move articles while they are at RM and indeed I would strongly suggest you not do it again (see Wikipedia:Don't move articles at AfD#Corollary) – in addition, the RM admins are not complete morons and are perfectly able to understand that a result of no consensus would default to the long term status quo, especially when it is pointed out several times in the RM. @ SMcCandlish: please don't move articles without an RM when you know that there is very likely to objections. It's all very well to cite WP:BOLD, but the the RM page is quite clear that you should only do so "If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move". Jenks24 ( talk) 15:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
– Restore mass moves of articles done without consultation and in defiance of longstanding consensus of page editors. Though normal capitalization in sentence case is appropriate for many horse and pony breeds, (e.g. Arabian horse, etc.) and a few of the mass moves appropriately did this and are not listed here, for some breeds the word "horse" or "Pony" as an inherent part of their proper name, and thus in these limited situations it should be capitalized. The basic guideline is if a name sounds completely ridiculous if "Horse" is dropped, i.e, we don't call an American Quarter Horse a "quarter." Likewise, "Danish Sport" "German Riding" or "Indian Half" makes no sense; "Costa Rican Saddle" can be confused with equipment, and "Florida Cracker" could be a derogatory description for a person. Further guidance can be seen in breed registry web sites where it is clear that the breed has a complete name as opposed to the mere convenience of adding "horse" or "pony". The American Paint Horse is one of those clear-cut examples, where the breed is not referred to as simply a "paint" (save for informal situations) due to confusion between a mere color breed and the specific breed, that includes certain other genetic characteristics. The others listed here have similar issues. there may be some room for a case-by-case discussion, but this lead article is a clear-cut case. Montanabw (talk) 17:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
puerile and absurd". You're a disgrace to this discussion and need to think carefully about throwing insults at other editors - it is a sign of desperation and does nothing to help your case. -- RexxS ( talk) 10:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus. However, on subjects where there is no global consensus, a local consensus should be taken into account." - Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes #Levels of consensus. Should this RM end in no consensus, then I hope that the closer will respect the status quo ante and ArbCom's principle, and accept that the titles should be restored to their previous, stable capitalisation as agreed by WP:EQUINE. -- RexxS ( talk) 22:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
The Nokota Horse Association contends it owns the legal trademark for the name and says it is not in competition with the conservancy.". Note that ' breed' in this case is used in its broader sense: "... the term is sometimes used in a very broad sense to define landrace animals, or naturally selected horses of a common phenotype located within a limited geographic region", yet is still capable of being a trademark. -- RexxS ( talk) 11:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Comment: We must respect the name of the animal per the breed standard. If the word horse or pony is part of the breed name we cannot change that here. To do so is to misrepresent the source. ( Littleolive oil ( talk) 14:58, 5 June 2014 (UTC))
1. The capitalization proposed here is inconsistent with other categories and even other horse articles. I have to observe that even before I began doing some consistency cleanup in these categories, virtually every single domestic animal article name that contained the species name after the breed name did so in lower case (e.g. Nigora goat, etc.) Virtually all of the rest either incorrectly included a parenthetical disambiguator (e.g. Siamese (cat)), and these have mostly been moved without incident (e.g. to Siamese cat per WP:AT policy to prefer natural disambiguation over parenthetical). Almost no articles had the name of the kind of organism capitalized as some people at the horse project want to do with some but not all of the horse/pony/donkey articles, for no apparent reason on that that they're adjectival breed names. But almost all breed names are, and we're just not doing this to their article names. The horse project haven't made any case for why these names are somehow different from Nigora goat and Siamese cat. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
2. MOS:LIFE has been clear on this for years: "English vernacular ("common") names are given in lower case in article prose.... This applies to ... general names for groups or types of organisms". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:33, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
3. Sources do not consistently support the idea that "horse" must be included at all, much less capitalized. What this really comes down to is: "Does a breed like American Paint horse always have 'horse' after it, such that we'd perhaps consider the 'horse' part of the breed name in a way that it is not in Calabrese horse, or is the breed sometimes simply called the 'American Paint', whihout 'horse' at all, capitalized or not?" The answer to this question is provably, clearly, unmistakably that, yes, the name of the breed is "American Paint" (and similar short forms for any such breeds), to which we add "horse" (or "pony" or "donkey") only when necessary for disambiguation. My cousins who own a Tennessee Walking horse say it's a "Tennessee Walking" or "Tennessee Walker" (I seem to recall the latter, mostly) when talking to horse people; they only add "horse" when talking to people who won't get it without the disambiguation. Note the "Paint Stallion Breeders Association" (not "Paint Horse Stallion Breeders Association") and their American Paint Classic race (not "American Paint Horse Classic") [8]. It only takes seconds on Google (or Yandex or whatever) to find "Tennessee Walking horse" (lower-case "horse") in mainstream publications, [9] along with "Tennessee Walking breed" in mixed usage with the "Horse" version [10], and even horse trading sites (i.e. site by and for horse people) not just using but consistently using Tennessee Walker horse" (not -er and lower case "horse). [11] While there's no question that "horsey" sources tend to want to capitalize Horse is not just these but all cases (e.g. Calabrese Horse, and others were even the WP equine wikiproject agrees WP shouldn't be capitalizing), WP does not have to care. Reliable sources for facts on something (horse breed conformation points, for example) are not reliable sources on English language usage for encyclopedic writing. See WP:Specialist style fallacy for a detailed analysis why. But the specialist sources don't even all agree on this. See, e.g. Horse Genetics (Bailey & Brooks, 2nd ed., 2013), which consistently downcases "horse" after the breed name proper, e.g. "the Camarillo White horse" [12]. And here's "the Camarillo White breed" in a U. of Oregon published biology thesis. [13] And so on. I can come up with examples liek this for every single breed name on the list up there, and all the rest of them that should be subject to the same discussion. The fact that horse publications mostly want to capitalize "Horse" is not reason for Wikipedia to do it, too. If we followed that sort of reasoning, we'd simply capitalize everything, since some specialist publication somewhere wants to capitalize it, whether it's art books that capitalize color names, auto suppliers and manuals who capitalize the names of car parts, or ornithology journals and field guides that capitalize the common names of birds. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
4. Category:Horse breeds's own contents disprove the notion that such names "must" be followed by "horse"/"pony" much less that they must be categorized: witness Irish Hobby, Soviet Heavy Draft, Russian Heavy Draft, Vladimir Heavy Draft, etc., and Part-Arabian, Murgese, and so on. See also Australian Draught horse (lower case); note lack of even one case of "Something Draft/Draught Horse" with "Horse" capitalized. Note next that the landslide majority of cases of an adjectival proper name (usually geo-cultural) is followed by "horse" or "pony". — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Counting non-horse articles, e.g. on breeds of cats, dogs, goats, sheep, pigs, cattle, chickens, ducks, turkeys, pigeons, etc., etc., many hundreds of articles could end up having the species/type name capitalized along with the breed name; most of them presently are lower case (and always have been; most of my recent moves have been to fix parenthetical disambiguations to use natural disambiguation, per WP:AT). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
I started Talk:Przewalski's_horse#Requested_move, since "horse" is also part of that breed name. There is a very small percentage of horse breeds with "horse" in the name, there should be only a few breeds left to move. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 22:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The term painted pony is very common. While it generally refers to American Paint Horse, it has additional connotations. Should there be a redirect: Painted pony → American Paint Horse ? -- 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:150C:B1E3:96E3:3390 ( talk) 16:34, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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