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What is C.E.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.227.213 ( talk) 05:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The famous quotation comes from his great codification of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah. The section is Hilchot Tefillin uMezuzah v'Sefer Torah, chapter 8, paragraph 4; I quote the Moznaim translation, as the only one I had to hand, although it is sometimes unclear and translates sefer uniformly as scroll although of course the Aleppo Codex is not a scroll.
Paragraph 1 explains p'tuchah - beginning a new paragraph. Paragraph 2 explains s'tumah - a gap in the middle of a line. Paragraph 3 discusses correcting a Sefer Torah if there is a mistake in p'tuchah or s'tumah or the layout of the songs in Beshallach or Ha'azinu.
Paragraph 4 says "Since I have seen great confusion about these matters in all the scrolls I have seen, and similarly, the masters of the tradition who have written down and composed to have it let known [which passages] are p'tuchot and which are s'tumot are divided with regard to the scrolls on which to rely, I saw fit to write down the entire list of all the passages in the Torah that are s'tumot and p'tuchot, and also the form of the songs. In this manner, all the scrolls can be corrected and checked against these [principles].
"The scroll on which I relied on for [clarification of] these matters was a scroll renowned in Egypt, which includes all the 24 books [of the Bible]. It was kept in Jerusalem for many years so that scrolls could be corrected from it. Everyone relies upon it because it was corrected by ben Asher, who spent many years writing it precisely, and [afterward] checked it many times.
"I relied [on this scroll] when I wrote a Torah scroll according to law."
He then goes on, as he said, to give a complete list of all the places in the Torah where there is a p'tuchah or s'tumah, and to give the laws of how to write the two special songs. Given the context, it is clear that he is referring to issues of formatting rather than text. Had he considered that there were places where the text, or even the spelling of some words, was in dispute, he would surely have given a list of them and what he considered that the text should be.
It must be remembered that Aaron ben Asher's contribution was mainly in the areas of vowel signs, the musical notes and especially the marginal masoretic notes. However, a sefer torah contains only the consonants of the Torah. It does not even have the verse dividers. While there may have been quite a lot of variation between manuscripts on the other points, there would have been far less disagreement on the consonants. Maimonides saw nothing worth saying about uncertainty in the consonants, which presumably means that the text was very stable by his time. RachelBrown 19:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
¶ Tawil & Schneider, Crown of Aleppo (op.cit., page 30-31) noted that Goshen-Gottstein refuted some doubts about whether Maimonides had been using and describing the Aleppo Codex by very carefully examining manuscripts written by Maimonides's own hand, including some manuscripts that had not yet been published in any book, and established that Maimonides was describing obscurities and peculiarities of the Aleppo Codex, even to details that had never been previously made public. See his article: Moshe Goshen-Gottstein, "The Authenticity of the Aleppo Codex", Textus vol. 1 (1960) pages 17-58, reprinted in Leiman (op.cit). Sussmanbern ( talk) 22:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
NOTE from mechon-mamre.org: The following is terribly confused and full of inaccuracies. The author of this article should give mechon-mamre.org a call and get accurate info and rewrite this error infested article.
I have put a "citation needed" template on the claim that Mechon Mamre's online edition of the Aleppo Codex differs in some fine details from the Breuer edition and reconstruction. Mechon Mamre has never been forthcoming about documenting their editorial decisions. Should they explicity document exactly what features of their reconstruction and edition differ from that of Breuer, then those facts should be noted in the article (and they would also be doing a fine service to scholarship). Until they do so, however, any claims about differences should be noted as exactly that, namely "claims," and a citation notice should be in place. Dovi ( talk) 21:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
¶ I am extremely annoyed that someone took it upon himself to undo my addition of the page size of the Codex pages, ostensibly because I failed to cite a source - although all sources that provide the size agree (I have since added those citations) - and yet ignore claims back and forth on the authenticity of the Codex as Maimonides's model text which cited no sources. Sussmanbern ( talk) 22:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The "History" section reads:
The Codex has had an eventful history. In the mid-11th century, about a century after it was written, the text was delivered to the Karaite community of Jerusalem, apparently after having been purchased from the heirs of Aharon ben Asher. Not long after (either in 1079 by the Seljuks or in 1099 by the Crusaders) it was looted from Jerusalem and eventually wound up in the Rabbanite synagogue in Cairo, where it was consulted by Maimonides.
Is this somebody’s opinion or does it have an actual source? I’m leaning towards the former. It just sounds like some one is trying to pull a reason out of thin air for why it ended up in Cairo. Why would the Sejuks take the book to Cairo since the Fatimids were their enemies? I think I have a more plausible historical reason for the appearance of the book in Cairo and I’ve even got a source for it.
In 1952, S.D. Goitein discovered two contemporary Jewish letters among the Cairo Geniza. One of these letters, the Letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon, mentions how after the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, Karaite Jewish survivors and holy relics (torah scrolls, codexes, etc.) were held ransom by the Crusaders. The Karaite elders reached out to their coreligionists in Alexandria and funds were sent to pay for pockets of Jews and relics over several years. Those ransomed were then transported to the main Karaite community in Egypt. Now if the person who “guesstimated” the above material would like my source, please write me on my talk page. However, my source does not mention this codex by name. So keep in mind by adding whatever material I provide you with to this article is original research. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 03:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see more about the provenance of the codex, and convincing proof that the Aleppo Codex is indeed the identical object with the sefer that Mimonides described. I find most disturbing, that Maimonides' use of the word sefer invariably refers to a scroll, and at this one and only point, without warning to the reader, he uses the same word to describe a codex. Very puzzling. Kepipesiom ( talk) 18:13, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion the book of Friedman deserves more attention in the article than it gets, and claims that it disputes (in my opinion, disproves) shouldn't be stated as fact any more. In particular Friedman and others show that the work was essentially whole when brought to Israel, and also that it was not given to the state on behalf of its owners. This article in Tablet gives an update on the book. Zero talk 00:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
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I understand that the source article uses the full Name, but would pious Jews actually have written it like that? -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:5C78:5149:5F14:2542 ( talk) 14:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
I put at the "External Links" a link to Aleppo Codex at 'Mikraot Gedolot Ha'keter' (MGK) website: https://www.mgketer.org/kazms . MrOllie deleted this edit because: "It was redundant with links already present and with material hosted at Wikimedia commons." I don't agree with him: 1. MGK is the only website where you can see on the manuscript the beginning of the chapter start and end of it. 2. At MGK you can see the verses number, at the top of each column which make it very easy to find the verse you look for. 3. At MGK you can see the chapter on the manuscript against the text of MGK. 4. At MGK you can see the Masora on the manuscript against the Masora's text of MGK. 5. At MGK you can see the 'Ein Hamasora' - a unique interpretation of the Masora. 6. The link was approved by the Hebrew Wiki, Deutsch Wiki and many others. I would like to hear your opinion about this issue. Noli1001 ( talk) 12:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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What is C.E.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.227.213 ( talk) 05:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The famous quotation comes from his great codification of Jewish law, Mishneh Torah. The section is Hilchot Tefillin uMezuzah v'Sefer Torah, chapter 8, paragraph 4; I quote the Moznaim translation, as the only one I had to hand, although it is sometimes unclear and translates sefer uniformly as scroll although of course the Aleppo Codex is not a scroll.
Paragraph 1 explains p'tuchah - beginning a new paragraph. Paragraph 2 explains s'tumah - a gap in the middle of a line. Paragraph 3 discusses correcting a Sefer Torah if there is a mistake in p'tuchah or s'tumah or the layout of the songs in Beshallach or Ha'azinu.
Paragraph 4 says "Since I have seen great confusion about these matters in all the scrolls I have seen, and similarly, the masters of the tradition who have written down and composed to have it let known [which passages] are p'tuchot and which are s'tumot are divided with regard to the scrolls on which to rely, I saw fit to write down the entire list of all the passages in the Torah that are s'tumot and p'tuchot, and also the form of the songs. In this manner, all the scrolls can be corrected and checked against these [principles].
"The scroll on which I relied on for [clarification of] these matters was a scroll renowned in Egypt, which includes all the 24 books [of the Bible]. It was kept in Jerusalem for many years so that scrolls could be corrected from it. Everyone relies upon it because it was corrected by ben Asher, who spent many years writing it precisely, and [afterward] checked it many times.
"I relied [on this scroll] when I wrote a Torah scroll according to law."
He then goes on, as he said, to give a complete list of all the places in the Torah where there is a p'tuchah or s'tumah, and to give the laws of how to write the two special songs. Given the context, it is clear that he is referring to issues of formatting rather than text. Had he considered that there were places where the text, or even the spelling of some words, was in dispute, he would surely have given a list of them and what he considered that the text should be.
It must be remembered that Aaron ben Asher's contribution was mainly in the areas of vowel signs, the musical notes and especially the marginal masoretic notes. However, a sefer torah contains only the consonants of the Torah. It does not even have the verse dividers. While there may have been quite a lot of variation between manuscripts on the other points, there would have been far less disagreement on the consonants. Maimonides saw nothing worth saying about uncertainty in the consonants, which presumably means that the text was very stable by his time. RachelBrown 19:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
¶ Tawil & Schneider, Crown of Aleppo (op.cit., page 30-31) noted that Goshen-Gottstein refuted some doubts about whether Maimonides had been using and describing the Aleppo Codex by very carefully examining manuscripts written by Maimonides's own hand, including some manuscripts that had not yet been published in any book, and established that Maimonides was describing obscurities and peculiarities of the Aleppo Codex, even to details that had never been previously made public. See his article: Moshe Goshen-Gottstein, "The Authenticity of the Aleppo Codex", Textus vol. 1 (1960) pages 17-58, reprinted in Leiman (op.cit). Sussmanbern ( talk) 22:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
NOTE from mechon-mamre.org: The following is terribly confused and full of inaccuracies. The author of this article should give mechon-mamre.org a call and get accurate info and rewrite this error infested article.
I have put a "citation needed" template on the claim that Mechon Mamre's online edition of the Aleppo Codex differs in some fine details from the Breuer edition and reconstruction. Mechon Mamre has never been forthcoming about documenting their editorial decisions. Should they explicity document exactly what features of their reconstruction and edition differ from that of Breuer, then those facts should be noted in the article (and they would also be doing a fine service to scholarship). Until they do so, however, any claims about differences should be noted as exactly that, namely "claims," and a citation notice should be in place. Dovi ( talk) 21:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
¶ I am extremely annoyed that someone took it upon himself to undo my addition of the page size of the Codex pages, ostensibly because I failed to cite a source - although all sources that provide the size agree (I have since added those citations) - and yet ignore claims back and forth on the authenticity of the Codex as Maimonides's model text which cited no sources. Sussmanbern ( talk) 22:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The "History" section reads:
The Codex has had an eventful history. In the mid-11th century, about a century after it was written, the text was delivered to the Karaite community of Jerusalem, apparently after having been purchased from the heirs of Aharon ben Asher. Not long after (either in 1079 by the Seljuks or in 1099 by the Crusaders) it was looted from Jerusalem and eventually wound up in the Rabbanite synagogue in Cairo, where it was consulted by Maimonides.
Is this somebody’s opinion or does it have an actual source? I’m leaning towards the former. It just sounds like some one is trying to pull a reason out of thin air for why it ended up in Cairo. Why would the Sejuks take the book to Cairo since the Fatimids were their enemies? I think I have a more plausible historical reason for the appearance of the book in Cairo and I’ve even got a source for it.
In 1952, S.D. Goitein discovered two contemporary Jewish letters among the Cairo Geniza. One of these letters, the Letter of the Karaite elders of Ascalon, mentions how after the 1099 siege of Jerusalem, Karaite Jewish survivors and holy relics (torah scrolls, codexes, etc.) were held ransom by the Crusaders. The Karaite elders reached out to their coreligionists in Alexandria and funds were sent to pay for pockets of Jews and relics over several years. Those ransomed were then transported to the main Karaite community in Egypt. Now if the person who “guesstimated” the above material would like my source, please write me on my talk page. However, my source does not mention this codex by name. So keep in mind by adding whatever material I provide you with to this article is original research. -- Ghostexorcist ( talk) 03:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see more about the provenance of the codex, and convincing proof that the Aleppo Codex is indeed the identical object with the sefer that Mimonides described. I find most disturbing, that Maimonides' use of the word sefer invariably refers to a scroll, and at this one and only point, without warning to the reader, he uses the same word to describe a codex. Very puzzling. Kepipesiom ( talk) 18:13, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion the book of Friedman deserves more attention in the article than it gets, and claims that it disputes (in my opinion, disproves) shouldn't be stated as fact any more. In particular Friedman and others show that the work was essentially whole when brought to Israel, and also that it was not given to the state on behalf of its owners. This article in Tablet gives an update on the book. Zero talk 00:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Aleppo Codex. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:51, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
I understand that the source article uses the full Name, but would pious Jews actually have written it like that? -- 2607:FEA8:D5DF:F945:5C78:5149:5F14:2542 ( talk) 14:06, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
I put at the "External Links" a link to Aleppo Codex at 'Mikraot Gedolot Ha'keter' (MGK) website: https://www.mgketer.org/kazms . MrOllie deleted this edit because: "It was redundant with links already present and with material hosted at Wikimedia commons." I don't agree with him: 1. MGK is the only website where you can see on the manuscript the beginning of the chapter start and end of it. 2. At MGK you can see the verses number, at the top of each column which make it very easy to find the verse you look for. 3. At MGK you can see the chapter on the manuscript against the text of MGK. 4. At MGK you can see the Masora on the manuscript against the Masora's text of MGK. 5. At MGK you can see the 'Ein Hamasora' - a unique interpretation of the Masora. 6. The link was approved by the Hebrew Wiki, Deutsch Wiki and many others. I would like to hear your opinion about this issue. Noli1001 ( talk) 12:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)