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the hospital was a "de facto headquarters" for Hamas. However, there was no consensus between options 2 and 4.
Editors against including the allegation contended that it would be undue (which I also take to mean unbalanced) to include that fact in the lead because it was almost 10 years old and included a quote from a single source reporting a single allegation that is later discussed in one sentence of the article. (Some editors questioned the veracity of that source and compared it to other sources. I have discounted those points because we can attribute claims in non-wikivoice to the Washington Post, which is an RS, and because source comparison is OR.)
Proponents responded that including that allegation was due per MOS:LEAD because it adequately summarized the body of the article, which has in-depth discussion of alleged misuse of the hospital by Hamas. Thus, they argued that it would not be undue to include such information in the lead, and would in fact best comport with WP:BALASP.
The former are correct that it would be undue to include the Washington Post quote in the lead because, per WP:BALASP, it would give undue weight to minor aspects of [the] subject
and give disproportionate weight to a single source from the body of reliable, published material on the subject
.
However, option 4 included more than just that quote, and there was roughly equal numerical consensus for options 2 and 4 overall. Since much of this discussion focused on argument over a single sentence, consensus grounded in MOS:LEAD did not develop for either option.
In general, I think the lead needs quite a bit of work to adequately summarize the entire article, rather than select sections. I think time might be better spent working on crafting a good lead rather than disputing small portions thereof. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 03:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
How should we mention past Hamas presence in the hospital in the lede?
Option 1: Senior members of Hamas were seen in the hospital and Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack (like here)
Option 2: Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack, ... (like here)
Option 3: Other, please propose another wording that summarises the section Accusations of misuse by Hamas.
For the avoidance of doubt, this RfC is only about the first sentence of the paragraph. Alaexis ¿question? 19:38, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The Arab–Israeli conflict is designated as a contentious topic with special editing restrictions. Editing and discussing this topic is restricted to extended-confirmed users (logged-in users with 500 edits and 30 days tenure). You are not logged in, so you are not extended confirmed. Your account is extended confirmeddoes not have the extended confirmed flag, but you are an administrator, so your account is extended confirmed by default. |
Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.
WIDE ANGLE reached a doctor in Gaza who believes Hamas officials are hiding either in the basement or in a separate underground area underneath the hospital and said that they moved there recently because other locations have been destroyed by Israel— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alaexis ( talk • contribs)
Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack,[3][4] and human rights organization Amnesty International accused Hamas of using areas of the hospital grounds in 2014 to interrogate, torture and execute Palestinians accused of having collaborated with Israel.[5] Hamas, along with al-Shifa's medical leadership, have denied the claims, but captured Hamas militants have supported them.[6] In 2014, the Washington Post stated that the hospital was a "de facto headquarters" for Hamas.[20]These three lead sentences are a decent and proportional summary of the article body. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 12:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
A few editors have said that the presence of Hamas in the hospital in 2014 should not be mentioned in the lede because it was 10 years ago. This is a legitimate argument, however you can't use it selectively. Now ( [7]) most of the second paragraph deals with the events in the hospital during the 2014 conflict, including Gilbert and Fosse's interviews from 2015.
So we should either remove all the details about the 2014 events from the lede or mention the Hamas presence, something that was reported not just by Israeli sources. Alaexis ¿question? 09:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
The lead currently reads "A former Israeli official also said Hamas leaders were hiding in the hospital."
Is a comment by an unknown Israeli official suitable for inclusion in the lead? It seems to be
WP:UNDUE. Aside from that, the sources for this, WaPost and Times of Israel, seem to not be impartial. --
Mhhossein
talk 19:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The current portion of the lead requires attention from editors:
"Later a shaft was found on the perimeter of the hospital, and various experts confirmed that it was similar to other militant tunnels. Multiple sources state that bunkers were built in the 1980s by Israel during the construction of the hospital while some sources report that the construction also included tunnels. A France24 investigation concluded that the images published by the IDF had matching characteristics of Hamas built tunnels. They also note that the tunnels were found under the Qatari building, which was built after Israel withdrew from Gaza."
It's not of a significant notability and is quite inconsistent give the sentences the sentences coming before it. The previous sentences portray the accusations against Israel over propaganda and death of patients including children. Then it's not known what "later" refers to. Also, These details about the shaft controversies does not seem to be lead-worthy. Investigation by France24 might be something to be included in the body, not in the lead certainly. -- Mhhossein talk 13:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
According to Palestinian reports, Khaled al-Batash - one of the leaders of the Islamic Jihad in the Gaza Strip who is considered close to the leadership of Hamas - was caught in an IDF operation at Shifa Hospital.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1ok11hdap
The IDF and Shin Bet forces have so far arrested about 350 suspects in the Shifa Hospital area, according to an IDF spokesman. The IDF statement stated that the IDF soldiers together with the Shin Bet forces found weapons throughout the hospital. Including: Kalashnikov rifles, machine guns, cartridges, mortars, grenades, RPGs and combat uniforms.
Also was captured Mahmoud Qawasma - a senior Hamas official who was released in the Shalit deal, deported to Gaza and from there he planned and financed the kidnapping and murder of the boys Naftali Frankel, Gil-ed Shaar and Eyal Yifatah in 2014.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/by7ouy00ct 2.55.173.47 ( talk) 17:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Nableezy: Can you explain your re-implementing of those major changes? Your edit summary doesn’t help me to understand them. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Israel stated that it found a tunnel around the hospitaland
However, this did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center.
attributing content [in the lede] that is not attributed in the bodyand why you are
not attributing content [in the lede] that is attributed in the body.
Israel published animations depicting a large underground militant network beneath the hospital(which appears to be excessive detail).
someone disagrees with your edityou are expected to
provide good reasons why you think that it is appropriate. It's not appropriate to refuse to explain the changes and simply insist they are better than the status quo. I want to have a discussion about these edits; it's very difficult when you can't even explain why they are appropriate and needed, as there is no opportunity for me to understand why you have made these extensive changes, and as such no chance for you to convince me why you are right, and at the same time no chance for me to convince you why I am right. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm attempting to summarize this here, as the discussion above is a little too threaded to be easy to follow.
In my opinion, the changes introduced issues in regards to MOS:CLAIM, in regards to attribution, and in regards to WP:NPOV. As these changes weren't explained, and introduced a large number of issues, I reverted them all and asked that a discussion be had here so that we could determine which aspects were good and which needed to be changed or omitted - this is common and appropriate for major changes where the issues with it are non-trivial.
For example, the attribution issues include Israel stated that it found a tunnel around the hospital
(attributes something that wasn't previously attributed and isn't attributed in the body), However, this did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center
(doesn't attribute something that was previously attributed and is attributed in the body).
The NPOV issues include removing Amnesty International reports about the 2008 to 2009 war (content that appears to be at least as significant and
WP:DUE as content left in or added), and adding Israel published animations depicting a large underground militant network beneath the hospital
(content which appears to be excessive detail).
The CLAIM issues include Israel claimed that Hamas militants returned to the hospital
.
This isn't a full list of the issues with the changes; the change is replete with them, and so I am asking for a full explanation of why Nableezy or Makeandtoss believed these changes was necessary and appropriate. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Israel claimed that Hamas militants returned to the hospitalper for example Al Jazeera: The Israeli military confirmed the sudden pullback on Monday, saying it had completed operational activity in the area of the hospital and claiming to have killed and captured numerous Hamas fighters. and Washington Post: The Israeli military has cast the operation as advancing their goal of destroying Hamas, reporting that more than 150 people they said were terrorists have been killed and hundreds of suspects detained since the operation began. The claims could not immediately be verified. ... The Israeli military says Hamas has used the facilities for military activities, a claim the militant group denies. These are unverified claims by a combatant who has an established track record of lying. So I dont know what word would be better used here. nableezy - 16:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
sounded logical to do.
but that it did demonstrate that Hamas used the hospital as coverThe reference for that sentence is the New York Times source that is provided next to the sentence.
there were extensive gunfightsThe reference for that sentence is the New York Times source that is provided next to the sentence.
Clicking on the lead image ( File:Operation-Local-Surgery 2024-03-30 at 20-31-44.jpg) opens the media viewer where the following description is presented: Operation Local Surgery - IDF raid on terror headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital, led to 200 terrorists killed and 500 terrorists arrested.
This information is effectively presented in Wikipedia's voice as a statement of fact, whereas the body of the article adds the qualifier that the claim that the 200 casualties being terrorists is claimed by Israeli officials (the referenced source notes that this has not been confirmed). Does the image description need changing? Richard Nevell ( talk) 19:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This military operation should probably have its own article. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 05:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I recently added two paragraphs (beginning with "United Nations special rapporteurs Tlaleng Mofokeng and Francesca Albanese issued a statement..." and "The Israeli operation has been referred to as a massacre by some sources...").
There has been some dispute over this content so I am making this entry for this content to be discussed/reviewed. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 21:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the extended description for the image at the top, the one of the destroyed complex, it describes the 200 killed inhabitants (that's how many people were killed) as "terrorists," as well as the 500 and counting arrested people as terrorists. Says as follows: "Operation Local Surgery - IDF raid on terror headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital, led to 200 terrorists killed and 500 terrorists arrested". This is unconfirmed, highly unlikely to be true and preemptively characterizing every single person held in that 14-day period as a terrorist is a gross distortion of the facts. Someone with editing privileges fix this to say "people" until further information, this caption is not a proper nor professional use of editorial privileges.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/06/1243045199/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-raid-before-aftermath
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/middleeast/israel-withdraws-from-al-shifa-complex-after-killing-200-and-arresting-1400/ar-BB1kRHpY Cathodia ( talk) 18:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
The destroyed complex in April 2024”. This potential issue should be discussed over on the file’s talk page on the Wikimedia Commons, not here, as English Wikipedia cannot change the caption from what is on Wikimedia Commons. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 18:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Should "See also" section link to Israeli war crimes page as it may be relevant to contextualise the final sections of this article. Additionally Hamas war crimes. Eamonn Cooper ( talk) 08:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Al-Shifa Hospital article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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the hospital was a "de facto headquarters" for Hamas. However, there was no consensus between options 2 and 4.
Editors against including the allegation contended that it would be undue (which I also take to mean unbalanced) to include that fact in the lead because it was almost 10 years old and included a quote from a single source reporting a single allegation that is later discussed in one sentence of the article. (Some editors questioned the veracity of that source and compared it to other sources. I have discounted those points because we can attribute claims in non-wikivoice to the Washington Post, which is an RS, and because source comparison is OR.)
Proponents responded that including that allegation was due per MOS:LEAD because it adequately summarized the body of the article, which has in-depth discussion of alleged misuse of the hospital by Hamas. Thus, they argued that it would not be undue to include such information in the lead, and would in fact best comport with WP:BALASP.
The former are correct that it would be undue to include the Washington Post quote in the lead because, per WP:BALASP, it would give undue weight to minor aspects of [the] subject
and give disproportionate weight to a single source from the body of reliable, published material on the subject
.
However, option 4 included more than just that quote, and there was roughly equal numerical consensus for options 2 and 4 overall. Since much of this discussion focused on argument over a single sentence, consensus grounded in MOS:LEAD did not develop for either option.
In general, I think the lead needs quite a bit of work to adequately summarize the entire article, rather than select sections. I think time might be better spent working on crafting a good lead rather than disputing small portions thereof. voorts ( talk/ contributions) 03:32, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
How should we mention past Hamas presence in the hospital in the lede?
Option 1: Senior members of Hamas were seen in the hospital and Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack (like here)
Option 2: Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack, ... (like here)
Option 3: Other, please propose another wording that summarises the section Accusations of misuse by Hamas.
For the avoidance of doubt, this RfC is only about the first sentence of the paragraph. Alaexis ¿question? 19:38, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The Arab–Israeli conflict is designated as a contentious topic with special editing restrictions. Editing and discussing this topic is restricted to extended-confirmed users (logged-in users with 500 edits and 30 days tenure). You are not logged in, so you are not extended confirmed. Your account is extended confirmeddoes not have the extended confirmed flag, but you are an administrator, so your account is extended confirmed by default. |
Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.
WIDE ANGLE reached a doctor in Gaza who believes Hamas officials are hiding either in the basement or in a separate underground area underneath the hospital and said that they moved there recently because other locations have been destroyed by Israel— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alaexis ( talk • contribs)
Israel has accused Hamas of using the hospital to shield it from attack,[3][4] and human rights organization Amnesty International accused Hamas of using areas of the hospital grounds in 2014 to interrogate, torture and execute Palestinians accused of having collaborated with Israel.[5] Hamas, along with al-Shifa's medical leadership, have denied the claims, but captured Hamas militants have supported them.[6] In 2014, the Washington Post stated that the hospital was a "de facto headquarters" for Hamas.[20]These three lead sentences are a decent and proportional summary of the article body. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 12:33, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
A few editors have said that the presence of Hamas in the hospital in 2014 should not be mentioned in the lede because it was 10 years ago. This is a legitimate argument, however you can't use it selectively. Now ( [7]) most of the second paragraph deals with the events in the hospital during the 2014 conflict, including Gilbert and Fosse's interviews from 2015.
So we should either remove all the details about the 2014 events from the lede or mention the Hamas presence, something that was reported not just by Israeli sources. Alaexis ¿question? 09:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
The lead currently reads "A former Israeli official also said Hamas leaders were hiding in the hospital."
Is a comment by an unknown Israeli official suitable for inclusion in the lead? It seems to be
WP:UNDUE. Aside from that, the sources for this, WaPost and Times of Israel, seem to not be impartial. --
Mhhossein
talk 19:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
The current portion of the lead requires attention from editors:
"Later a shaft was found on the perimeter of the hospital, and various experts confirmed that it was similar to other militant tunnels. Multiple sources state that bunkers were built in the 1980s by Israel during the construction of the hospital while some sources report that the construction also included tunnels. A France24 investigation concluded that the images published by the IDF had matching characteristics of Hamas built tunnels. They also note that the tunnels were found under the Qatari building, which was built after Israel withdrew from Gaza."
It's not of a significant notability and is quite inconsistent give the sentences the sentences coming before it. The previous sentences portray the accusations against Israel over propaganda and death of patients including children. Then it's not known what "later" refers to. Also, These details about the shaft controversies does not seem to be lead-worthy. Investigation by France24 might be something to be included in the body, not in the lead certainly. -- Mhhossein talk 13:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
According to Palestinian reports, Khaled al-Batash - one of the leaders of the Islamic Jihad in the Gaza Strip who is considered close to the leadership of Hamas - was caught in an IDF operation at Shifa Hospital.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1ok11hdap
The IDF and Shin Bet forces have so far arrested about 350 suspects in the Shifa Hospital area, according to an IDF spokesman. The IDF statement stated that the IDF soldiers together with the Shin Bet forces found weapons throughout the hospital. Including: Kalashnikov rifles, machine guns, cartridges, mortars, grenades, RPGs and combat uniforms.
Also was captured Mahmoud Qawasma - a senior Hamas official who was released in the Shalit deal, deported to Gaza and from there he planned and financed the kidnapping and murder of the boys Naftali Frankel, Gil-ed Shaar and Eyal Yifatah in 2014.
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/by7ouy00ct 2.55.173.47 ( talk) 17:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Nableezy: Can you explain your re-implementing of those major changes? Your edit summary doesn’t help me to understand them. BilledMammal ( talk) 14:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Israel stated that it found a tunnel around the hospitaland
However, this did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center.
attributing content [in the lede] that is not attributed in the bodyand why you are
not attributing content [in the lede] that is attributed in the body.
Israel published animations depicting a large underground militant network beneath the hospital(which appears to be excessive detail).
someone disagrees with your edityou are expected to
provide good reasons why you think that it is appropriate. It's not appropriate to refuse to explain the changes and simply insist they are better than the status quo. I want to have a discussion about these edits; it's very difficult when you can't even explain why they are appropriate and needed, as there is no opportunity for me to understand why you have made these extensive changes, and as such no chance for you to convince me why you are right, and at the same time no chance for me to convince you why I am right. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm attempting to summarize this here, as the discussion above is a little too threaded to be easy to follow.
In my opinion, the changes introduced issues in regards to MOS:CLAIM, in regards to attribution, and in regards to WP:NPOV. As these changes weren't explained, and introduced a large number of issues, I reverted them all and asked that a discussion be had here so that we could determine which aspects were good and which needed to be changed or omitted - this is common and appropriate for major changes where the issues with it are non-trivial.
For example, the attribution issues include Israel stated that it found a tunnel around the hospital
(attributes something that wasn't previously attributed and isn't attributed in the body), However, this did not demonstrate the existence of a Hamas command center
(doesn't attribute something that was previously attributed and is attributed in the body).
The NPOV issues include removing Amnesty International reports about the 2008 to 2009 war (content that appears to be at least as significant and
WP:DUE as content left in or added), and adding Israel published animations depicting a large underground militant network beneath the hospital
(content which appears to be excessive detail).
The CLAIM issues include Israel claimed that Hamas militants returned to the hospital
.
This isn't a full list of the issues with the changes; the change is replete with them, and so I am asking for a full explanation of why Nableezy or Makeandtoss believed these changes was necessary and appropriate. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:20, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Israel claimed that Hamas militants returned to the hospitalper for example Al Jazeera: The Israeli military confirmed the sudden pullback on Monday, saying it had completed operational activity in the area of the hospital and claiming to have killed and captured numerous Hamas fighters. and Washington Post: The Israeli military has cast the operation as advancing their goal of destroying Hamas, reporting that more than 150 people they said were terrorists have been killed and hundreds of suspects detained since the operation began. The claims could not immediately be verified. ... The Israeli military says Hamas has used the facilities for military activities, a claim the militant group denies. These are unverified claims by a combatant who has an established track record of lying. So I dont know what word would be better used here. nableezy - 16:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
sounded logical to do.
but that it did demonstrate that Hamas used the hospital as coverThe reference for that sentence is the New York Times source that is provided next to the sentence.
there were extensive gunfightsThe reference for that sentence is the New York Times source that is provided next to the sentence.
Clicking on the lead image ( File:Operation-Local-Surgery 2024-03-30 at 20-31-44.jpg) opens the media viewer where the following description is presented: Operation Local Surgery - IDF raid on terror headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital, led to 200 terrorists killed and 500 terrorists arrested.
This information is effectively presented in Wikipedia's voice as a statement of fact, whereas the body of the article adds the qualifier that the claim that the 200 casualties being terrorists is claimed by Israeli officials (the referenced source notes that this has not been confirmed). Does the image description need changing? Richard Nevell ( talk) 19:58, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
This military operation should probably have its own article. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 05:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I recently added two paragraphs (beginning with "United Nations special rapporteurs Tlaleng Mofokeng and Francesca Albanese issued a statement..." and "The Israeli operation has been referred to as a massacre by some sources...").
There has been some dispute over this content so I am making this entry for this content to be discussed/reviewed. IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 21:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the extended description for the image at the top, the one of the destroyed complex, it describes the 200 killed inhabitants (that's how many people were killed) as "terrorists," as well as the 500 and counting arrested people as terrorists. Says as follows: "Operation Local Surgery - IDF raid on terror headquarters in Al-Shifa Hospital, led to 200 terrorists killed and 500 terrorists arrested". This is unconfirmed, highly unlikely to be true and preemptively characterizing every single person held in that 14-day period as a terrorist is a gross distortion of the facts. Someone with editing privileges fix this to say "people" until further information, this caption is not a proper nor professional use of editorial privileges.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/06/1243045199/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-israel-raid-before-aftermath
https://www.msn.com/en-ae/news/middleeast/israel-withdraws-from-al-shifa-complex-after-killing-200-and-arresting-1400/ar-BB1kRHpY Cathodia ( talk) 18:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
The destroyed complex in April 2024”. This potential issue should be discussed over on the file’s talk page on the Wikimedia Commons, not here, as English Wikipedia cannot change the caption from what is on Wikimedia Commons. The Weather Event Writer ( Talk Page) 18:43, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Should "See also" section link to Israeli war crimes page as it may be relevant to contextualise the final sections of this article. Additionally Hamas war crimes. Eamonn Cooper ( talk) 08:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)