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The place where Abhay Charanarvinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada met his spiritual master is Ultadanga, Kolkata. Not Allahabad. Fake information.
And Views on slavery and casteism and racism are picked without knowing the context of the talks or lecture. It is just picked from the words not conversation. Thank you 009Priyanshusharma ( talk) 05:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
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The "Views" section of this section includes extremely cherry-picked statements from the individual the article is about. A more comprehensive article is required to paint an accurate picture of the individual this article is about. Edit the following in square brackets after considering the followings quotes.
["Hitler and Jews Swami mentioned Hitler to provide an example of a notorious villain, comparing him to Vedic demons, and using the term "hero" to describe one who has many gifts but squanders them for evil purposes:
Sometimes he becomes a great hero -- just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.[12]
He held Jews to be responsible for Holocaust:
Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews... And they were supplying. They want interest money -- "Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."]
Quotes: [So asura, to kill the asuras, however powerful they may be... We have seen. There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiraṇyakaśipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished. So asuras, to kill him... Paritrāṇāya sādhūn..., vināśāya...(BG 4.8) To kill the duṣkṛtām, these asuras, Kṛṣṇa does not require to come. He comes only to give protection and pleasure to the devotees. That is his aim." (Lecture on SB 1.8.20 -- Mayapura, September 30, 1974)
To the atheists who are guided by the animal qualities of passion and ignorance, physically powerful men like... Ravana, Meghnad, Jarasandha, Hitler, Mussolini, etc. are considered as Mahajans. (Srila Prabhupada)
(Hitler is compared to likes of ‘Demons’ of mythological and current times. Ravan, Mussolini.
The whole history of the world, you just study, is a history of sense gratification. Just take, for example, some twenty years ago one Mr. Adolf Hitler came in the scene, and there was great upheaval as war in Europe and America. From 1933 to 1947 or something like that, the whole world was in trouble. But he is gone, finished. And what did he do? Sense gratification, that's all. (Bhagavad-gita Lecture 3.6-10. Los Angeles. 68-12-23)
No, the greater power is Krsna. If you take shelter of Krsna, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Krsna and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-pape... [Bg. 18.66]. "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Krsna, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom." (Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist. Stockholm. 73-09-10)
Just like in your Western countries there was Napoleon, there was Hitler, there was Mussolini, here also, big, big leaders, but what they are? Big, big servants of the senses, that's all. Big, big servants of the senses. Therefore Bhāgavata has said, sva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ: "These big, big leaders are big, big animals, that's all." Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. So there are many instructive verses in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam should be your life and soul to remain constantly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yes, the unique gift of Śrī Vyāsadeva. (Lecture SB 07.09.40 MAYAPUR - March 18, 1976)
An example can help us to understand the inconceivable potency of the Supreme Lord. In the recent history of warfare the Supreme Personality of Godhead created a Hitler and, before that, a Napoleon Bonaparte, and they each killed many living entities in war. But in the end Bonaparte and Hitler were also killed. People are still very much interested in writing and reading books about Hitler and Bonaparte and how they killed so many people in war. Year after year many books are published for public reading regarding Hitler's killing thousands of Jews in confinement. But no one is researching who killed Hitler and who created such a gigantic killer of human beings. The devotees of the Lord are not much interested in the study of the flickering history of the world. They are interested only in Him who is the original creator, maintainer and annihilator. That is the purpose of the Krsna consciousness movement. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.11.9 Purport)
..defect of the modern politicians. Here at the present moment, their philosophy is that one must be very cunning diplomat, then he's successful politician. This is their philosophy. The most crooked man, like Cāṇakya. But our philosophy is that the political head should be like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Lord Rāmacandra. That is difference. Here Churchill or Hitler or similar man, crooked man... Without being crooked one cannot become politician. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, he said that "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." Consistency. You must change. ()
Now we have got our great personalities, leaders. They are praised, eulogized, our, these political leaders. "Our Hitler," "Our Gandhi," "Our Churchill," "Our Nixon." But sastra says these leaders, those who are not spiritual leaders, those who cannot give our life, they are worshiped by these classes of animals, animals. These so-called leaders, politicians, they are eulogized very much by whom? By these class of men: dogs, camels, asses and.. (Srila Prabhupada)
Disciple: Nietzsche believed that everyone has a “will to power,” but that the weak seek power vainly. For instance, in his will to power, Hitler sought to subjugate as much of the world as possible, but he was ultimately unsuccessful, and he brought disaster upon himself and Germany. Instead of trying to conquer himself, he attempted to conquer others, and this is the will to power misdirected or misinterpreted. Srila Prabhupada: Men like Hitler are not able to control the force of anger. A king or national leader has to use anger properly. Narottama Dasa Thakura says that we should control our powers and apply them in the proper cases. We may become angry, but our anger must be controlled. (Beyond Illusion and Doubt. 12. Nietzsche)
Prabhupada: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted. Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?" Prabhupada: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect. (Morning Walk. Los Angeles 73-12-16)
Just like in the history of the world there were so many big, big men - Hitler, Napoleon, this Churchill, Gandhi, Nehru. But all their powers, position, in one minute it becomes vanquished. There is no question... They are so proud, they do not believe in God, but when the death comes, they cannot argue anything. The death orders, "Immediately vacate"—finished. You have to vacate. At that time their power, opulence, position—nothing can help. So Kṛṣṇa says, therefore... The atheist class of men who do not believe in God, decry the authority of God, for them... Of course, everyone dies, but for them, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34): Kṛṣṇa comes as death and takes away everything in their possession. But foolish persons, they do not see, still. God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This death I am." Still they'll not. And it is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa comes as death, as Hiraṇyakaśipu... He was atheist, did not believe in God, but when God, Nṛsiṁha-deva came, then he was vanquished, everything, within a second. Nirastaḥ. Sa tu te nirastaḥ. (Lecture SB 07.09.23 Mayapur- March 01, 1976)
Prabhupada: Is that rational, that another living entity like me should be killed for my benefit, for satisfying my tongue? Syämasundara: Their idea is that the animal is not in the same category as myself because it has no... Prabhupäda: So that's alright; then might is right? Hitler is right? When Hitler, Hitler kills the Jews, he's right? He thinks that they are not in my category. Syämasundara: The animal cannot understand philosophy. Prabhupäda: What does he understand of philosophy? He is mad; he is less than an animal. He does not understand philosophy. He does not know that the animal has also a soul, the animal has also life. Then he should be killed first. (Dialectical Spirtualism - Hegel)
This nationalism, this nationalism also the same mistake, but they are fighting so much. Great, great, big, big men. In this country, Napoleon fought. In Germany, Hitler fought. And so many others, in our country Gandhi fought. But he is in ignorance. All these big big leaders, they are ignorance, andha, blind. Blind. They do not know that he is not this body and neither this land belongs to him. But they fight. The whole history of the world means this mistaken idea. "I" and "mine." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yat taj jñānam. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor yat taj-jñānaṁ mataṁ mama. Kṛṣṇa is giving, that one should know what he is and one should know what is his body, then he is in knowledge. The matter cannot understand this. The dogs, cats, cannot understand this. But a human being can understand this. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Therefore, the human society should take care of this knowledge. Then his life will be successful.(Lecture on BG 13.3 -- Paris, August 11, 1973)] All.glories ( talk) 09:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The article is expanded and updated with new WP:RSs, images, and media. Tried to preserve, develop and build upon all the previous contributions and sources. Looking forward to feedback, corrections, and contributions. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 15:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (IAST: Abhaya Caraṇāravinda Bhakti-vedānta Svāmī Prabhupāda (1896–1977) was the twentieth-century spiritual, philosophical, and religious teacher from India who spread the Hare Krishna mantra and the teachings of “Krishna consciousness” to the world. Born as Abhay Charan De and later legally named Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami, he is often referred to simply as “Bhaktivedanta Swami”, "Srila Prabhupada", or simply “Prabhupada”.That's not an encyclopedic tone and a proper way to start an article. Please work on the article in your sandbox and not here. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
but his teachings and the Society he established continue to be influential", "
Scholars have commented, however, on the contrast between such controversial statements and the full picture of what Prabhupada actually taught and did", "
and arousing interest in them worldwide, Prabhupada made a lasting contribution", and much more. They read like advocacy and puffery, but Wikipedia is not for promoting agenda. Ratnahastin ( talk) 02:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks for all your comments. My apologies for overreacting to reverts of the updated revision. As Psychologist Guy has rightly noted above, I did act in good faith while replacing the current article with its expanded iteration. It was through such single edits that I previously updated two closely related articles on Bhaktisiddhanta (+44318 bytes) and Bhaktivinoda (+64138 bytes), both expansions accepted at that time by the community as improvements. So I did expect (somewhat naively) that the proposed revision would also be dealt with in terms of WP:PRESERVE rather than given short shrift. Still, I should've known better than to engage in edit warring, and I do apologize for the lapse of judgment and decorum on my part. The 48-hour block (my first to date) served me well. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 20:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Again, thank you all for the above comments. As suggested by Soetermans, I've placed the draft back in my sandbox and:
Would you please suggest how to best proceed with the proposed revision? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 13:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Per consensus above:
Jroberson108 suggested above to consider merging "Principal writings" and "Critical assessments of Prabhupada's writings", the latter naturally falling under the former as a subsection. On the other hand, since "Critical assessments" is so developed and voluminous — and potentially growing ever larger as more scholarly reviews of his writings emerge — it might be more justified to keep it as a separate major section. Any thoughts? To facilitate the discussion, I added both:
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 04:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Jroberson108 also suggested earlier to place Controversial statements under Challenges and controversies and, per WP:QUOTEFARM, to shrink or demote some of Prabhupada's isolated quotes in the context of the scholarly sources cited. With Jroberson108's suggestions in mind, I:
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 07:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Two essays by Ekkehard Lorenz in The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant[o] compile controversial statements made by Prabhupada on slavery, lower castes, Hitler, Darwin’s theory of evolution, the moon landing, and womenis a vast improvement compared to actually quoting his statements, which are pretty much all either ignorant, dumb, primitive, or reactionary, or all of the above. Wikipedia is not anybody's megaphone for crazy ideas. See WP:FRINGE:
Fringe sources can be used to support text that describes fringe theories provided that such sources have been noticed and given proper context with third-party, independent sources.Without the context, those quotes do not belong here. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 13:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
"the entire section has been white washed to core"?
“If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true, or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article”.If you know of any other academic sources that cover allegedly racist and antisemitic views of Prabhupada that are reliable and independent of ISKCON, please add them. Personally I couldn’t find any.
“[as an] ex-ISKCON member, Lorenz is clearly vengeful, perhaps to the point of misusing his source material”.(Smith 2004, p.189)
"An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject”;
“the characterization of these particular points as “views“ in this article … is giving them far too much prominence, as though they are the main pillars of his teachings” and thought “this constitutes a bias.”;
"the quotes do not belong on Wikipedia ... this understanding seems to be shared, one way or another, by many editors here."? In other words, as you say, their stated rationale (cited for each) may vary, and strongly — WP:FRINGE, or WP:UNDUE, or WP:OR, or WP:PROPORTION, or WP:SHIT, or whatever — but their conclusions concur: the quotes must go. Correct? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 09:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
unless you provide some strong WP:RSs interpreting them as an accurate portrayal of Prabhupada’s major views and teachingsbetween
the quotes do not belongand
this understanding. So, bad wording that suggests that all those people agree that the statements would be due if RS said that ACBSP actually thought like that. Well, I don't and I am not happy about being misrepresented. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 11:52, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
"The non-ISKCON reader, such as me..."(Smith 2004, p.189). I propose that JVS be cited for such verifiably neutral scholarly opinions. Otherwise, by the same token, should we also forego Byant & Ekstrand's volume altogether since most of its contributors, starting with the editors themselves, and including Lorenz, are either former or current ISKCON members (Smith 2004, p.179; Bryant & Ekstrand 2004, pp.ix-xiii) — and thus by definition cannot be trusted as neutral and objective?
"[The quotes] depict Prabhupada as 'racist, sexist, intellectually dishonest, ungrateful, unethical, unsophisticated, and unaware of the norms of the societies in which he lived' and blame his teachings 'for condoning abuse of children, abuse of women, and abuse by leadership, while promoting dictatorship, intolerance, and autocratic rule by the guru'."For one thing, it's much more balanced than including the quotes themselves, as Hob Gadling wrote above. For another, in my view, coming from ISKCON members-scholars, this further reinforces the quotes' critique. But I'm not opposed to removing them, if that's the consensus.
"a student of Indology with focus on medieval and ancient Sanskrit", which calls into question his reliability as a scholar at that time — as expressed by Smith: “[as an] ex-ISKCON member, Lorenz is clearly vengeful, perhaps to the point of misusing his source material”. (Smith 2004, p.189) Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 12:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
{{rfc|bio}}
to gain a consensus. I recall from
Cinosaur's version of the "Views" section prior to the revert, it mentioned Ekkehard Lorenz was an ex-ISKCON member, which if members are being dismissed as reliable sources due to association, I would think the same should apply to Lorenz based on past membership. Obviously both sides will hold biases, even if they try to remain neutral in their writing. This is why I asked earlier if there are any "sources on this topic from unbiased historians/scholars". If there aren't, then it might be best to remove those parts, which may end up being all or most of that section. As it is now, the entire section looks to be a
WP:QUOTEFARM trying to give
WP:UNDUE weight to a minority opinion on what appears to be a
WP:MINORASPECT of the entire page.
Jroberson108 (
talk) 22:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)Drawing upon the individual feedback, comments and suggestions (sometimes polar) and collective sense of direction, I've attempted a revised version of the section.
Changes:
Hopefully, this version will help resolve the impasse and give us a fresh start towards further improvement of the article. Please feel free to edit the revision in terms of enhancing its WP:EV. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 16:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
"Prabhupada dismissed reports of the 1969 moon landing, speaking in support of moon landing conspiracy theories."I see nothing there saying anything about supporting conspiracy theories, so it looks to be WP:OR. What I do see is a quote of him dismissing it based on what is said in Srimad Bhagavatam. There is no analysis from the author, just a quote, so it's pretty meaningless in my opinion. My interpretation would be that he doesn't support a conspiracy theory, but is a literalist in his faith, like many other religious figures. The other references in that section should probably be verified too. Jroberson108 ( talk) 18:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
The section about his views is still far from any improvement. I am sure that there is absolutely not need to clarify his views by the sources that are close to the subject. Ratnahastin ( talk) 07:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Prabhupada called democracy "the government of the asses", "nonsense", and "farce", at the same time praising the monarchial form of government and speaking favorably of dictatorship.It appears to be pieced together from various republished quotes without any of the author's conclusions, which would constitute WP:OR:
any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.We want the analysis and conclusions of published authors.
all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.( WP:NPOV)
Wikipedia is not anybody's megaphone for crazy ideas. See WP:FRINGE" Baalseeker ( talk) 04:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 07:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Now that, thanks to many editors' feedback and contributions, the revised and expanded article's final part has been posted, I have also updated the lead in compliance with WP:LEAD. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 08:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
The article states "On November 14, 1977, at the age of 81, after a long illness, Prabhupada passed away in his room at the Krishna Balaram Mandir", do we have any references telling us what this long illness was? I have personally found some sources that say it was from diabetes.
Some of Prabhupada's die-hard followers like Nityananda Das are saying there was a conspiracy theory to assassinate Prabhupada by poisoning [4], [5] whilst others such as Satsvarupa dasa Goswami have dismissed this. None of these sources would pass WP:RS and Nityananda's conspiracy theory is definitely WP:Fringe that is not supported by any medical evidence. There was a statement by a surgeon Andrew J. McIrvine who operated on Prabhupada who stated "He was in obviously poor health and showed signs of renal failure and was found to be diabetic" [6]. It would be useful to cite McIrvine but I doubt a reliable source documents this information. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
As requested by Cinosaur, providing my suggestions here. I am evaluating the same as per WP:GA standards. Redtigerxyz Talk 13:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Redtigerxyz: Thank you very much. Will work on these and other issues. Could you please add your point about overquoting in Views in this thread on this exact topic? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 10:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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The place where Abhay Charanarvinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada met his spiritual master is Ultadanga, Kolkata. Not Allahabad. Fake information.
And Views on slavery and casteism and racism are picked without knowing the context of the talks or lecture. It is just picked from the words not conversation. Thank you 009Priyanshusharma ( talk) 05:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
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The "Views" section of this section includes extremely cherry-picked statements from the individual the article is about. A more comprehensive article is required to paint an accurate picture of the individual this article is about. Edit the following in square brackets after considering the followings quotes.
["Hitler and Jews Swami mentioned Hitler to provide an example of a notorious villain, comparing him to Vedic demons, and using the term "hero" to describe one who has many gifts but squanders them for evil purposes:
Sometimes he becomes a great hero -- just like Hiranyakashipu and Kamsa or, in the modern age, Napoleon or Hitler. The activities of such men are certainly very great, but as soon as their bodies are finished, everything else is finished.[12]
He held Jews to be responsible for Holocaust:
Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews... And they were supplying. They want interest money -- "Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."]
Quotes: [So asura, to kill the asuras, however powerful they may be... We have seen. There were so many asuras in this world. There were Lenin, there were Stalin, there were Hitler, there were Hiraṇyakaśipu. So many. But they could not survive. It is not possible. They'll be finished. So asuras, to kill him... Paritrāṇāya sādhūn..., vināśāya...(BG 4.8) To kill the duṣkṛtām, these asuras, Kṛṣṇa does not require to come. He comes only to give protection and pleasure to the devotees. That is his aim." (Lecture on SB 1.8.20 -- Mayapura, September 30, 1974)
To the atheists who are guided by the animal qualities of passion and ignorance, physically powerful men like... Ravana, Meghnad, Jarasandha, Hitler, Mussolini, etc. are considered as Mahajans. (Srila Prabhupada)
(Hitler is compared to likes of ‘Demons’ of mythological and current times. Ravan, Mussolini.
The whole history of the world, you just study, is a history of sense gratification. Just take, for example, some twenty years ago one Mr. Adolf Hitler came in the scene, and there was great upheaval as war in Europe and America. From 1933 to 1947 or something like that, the whole world was in trouble. But he is gone, finished. And what did he do? Sense gratification, that's all. (Bhagavad-gita Lecture 3.6-10. Los Angeles. 68-12-23)
No, the greater power is Krsna. If you take shelter of Krsna, they cannot do anything. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, he was a five years old boy. He took shelter of Krsna and his father was a great demon, very powerful. He wanted to chastise his boy. He could not. This is the proof. So you take shelter. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-pape... [Bg. 18.66]. "I give you protection." So people have no faith although He's God. He thinks God is less powerful than Hitler. That is his nonsense. If he takes actually shelter of Krsna, what this rascal, Hitler, can do? But he has no faith in God. He thinks Prabhu Hitler is greater than Lord. Prabhu Hitler. That is the difference between the crows and the swans. The crows think that we have got food in the garbage. And the swans think that we have got food in nice garden, in the clear water. And that is difference even in the birds kingdom." (Room Conversation with Dr. Christian Hauser, Psychiatrist. Stockholm. 73-09-10)
Just like in your Western countries there was Napoleon, there was Hitler, there was Mussolini, here also, big, big leaders, but what they are? Big, big servants of the senses, that's all. Big, big servants of the senses. Therefore Bhāgavata has said, sva-viḍ-varāhoṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ (SB 2.3.19). Puruṣaḥ paśuḥ: "These big, big leaders are big, big animals, that's all." Saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. So there are many instructive verses in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Therefore Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam should be your life and soul to remain constantly in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, yes, the unique gift of Śrī Vyāsadeva. (Lecture SB 07.09.40 MAYAPUR - March 18, 1976)
An example can help us to understand the inconceivable potency of the Supreme Lord. In the recent history of warfare the Supreme Personality of Godhead created a Hitler and, before that, a Napoleon Bonaparte, and they each killed many living entities in war. But in the end Bonaparte and Hitler were also killed. People are still very much interested in writing and reading books about Hitler and Bonaparte and how they killed so many people in war. Year after year many books are published for public reading regarding Hitler's killing thousands of Jews in confinement. But no one is researching who killed Hitler and who created such a gigantic killer of human beings. The devotees of the Lord are not much interested in the study of the flickering history of the world. They are interested only in Him who is the original creator, maintainer and annihilator. That is the purpose of the Krsna consciousness movement. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.11.9 Purport)
..defect of the modern politicians. Here at the present moment, their philosophy is that one must be very cunning diplomat, then he's successful politician. This is their philosophy. The most crooked man, like Cāṇakya. But our philosophy is that the political head should be like Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Lord Rāmacandra. That is difference. Here Churchill or Hitler or similar man, crooked man... Without being crooked one cannot become politician. Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, he said that "Consistency in politics is the qualification of an ass." Consistency. You must change. ()
Now we have got our great personalities, leaders. They are praised, eulogized, our, these political leaders. "Our Hitler," "Our Gandhi," "Our Churchill," "Our Nixon." But sastra says these leaders, those who are not spiritual leaders, those who cannot give our life, they are worshiped by these classes of animals, animals. These so-called leaders, politicians, they are eulogized very much by whom? By these class of men: dogs, camels, asses and.. (Srila Prabhupada)
Disciple: Nietzsche believed that everyone has a “will to power,” but that the weak seek power vainly. For instance, in his will to power, Hitler sought to subjugate as much of the world as possible, but he was ultimately unsuccessful, and he brought disaster upon himself and Germany. Instead of trying to conquer himself, he attempted to conquer others, and this is the will to power misdirected or misinterpreted. Srila Prabhupada: Men like Hitler are not able to control the force of anger. A king or national leader has to use anger properly. Narottama Dasa Thakura says that we should control our powers and apply them in the proper cases. We may become angry, but our anger must be controlled. (Beyond Illusion and Doubt. 12. Nietzsche)
Prabhupada: Well, foolish men cannot accept any logic. Their logic is stick. "If you don't accept, I shall kick on your face. Accept it." That is the... That is wanted. Karandhara: Like the example when Hitler killed the Jews. They will say, "Well, what should we do, just let Hitler go on killing the Jews because the Jews were sinful? Or should we try and stop Hitler?" Prabhupada: Well, Hitler was imperfect and everything was imperfect. That you cannot compare Hitler's action with God's action. God is all-perfect. That is first proposition. God is all-perfect. (Morning Walk. Los Angeles 73-12-16)
Just like in the history of the world there were so many big, big men - Hitler, Napoleon, this Churchill, Gandhi, Nehru. But all their powers, position, in one minute it becomes vanquished. There is no question... They are so proud, they do not believe in God, but when the death comes, they cannot argue anything. The death orders, "Immediately vacate"—finished. You have to vacate. At that time their power, opulence, position—nothing can help. So Kṛṣṇa says, therefore... The atheist class of men who do not believe in God, decry the authority of God, for them... Of course, everyone dies, but for them, mṛtyuḥ sarva-haraś cāham (BG 10.34): Kṛṣṇa comes as death and takes away everything in their possession. But foolish persons, they do not see, still. God says, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This death I am." Still they'll not. And it is a fact. When Kṛṣṇa comes as death, as Hiraṇyakaśipu... He was atheist, did not believe in God, but when God, Nṛsiṁha-deva came, then he was vanquished, everything, within a second. Nirastaḥ. Sa tu te nirastaḥ. (Lecture SB 07.09.23 Mayapur- March 01, 1976)
Prabhupada: Is that rational, that another living entity like me should be killed for my benefit, for satisfying my tongue? Syämasundara: Their idea is that the animal is not in the same category as myself because it has no... Prabhupäda: So that's alright; then might is right? Hitler is right? When Hitler, Hitler kills the Jews, he's right? He thinks that they are not in my category. Syämasundara: The animal cannot understand philosophy. Prabhupäda: What does he understand of philosophy? He is mad; he is less than an animal. He does not understand philosophy. He does not know that the animal has also a soul, the animal has also life. Then he should be killed first. (Dialectical Spirtualism - Hegel)
This nationalism, this nationalism also the same mistake, but they are fighting so much. Great, great, big, big men. In this country, Napoleon fought. In Germany, Hitler fought. And so many others, in our country Gandhi fought. But he is in ignorance. All these big big leaders, they are ignorance, andha, blind. Blind. They do not know that he is not this body and neither this land belongs to him. But they fight. The whole history of the world means this mistaken idea. "I" and "mine." Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, yat taj jñānam. Kṣetra-kṣetrajñayor yat taj-jñānaṁ mataṁ mama. Kṛṣṇa is giving, that one should know what he is and one should know what is his body, then he is in knowledge. The matter cannot understand this. The dogs, cats, cannot understand this. But a human being can understand this. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for the human being, not for the cats and dogs. Therefore, the human society should take care of this knowledge. Then his life will be successful.(Lecture on BG 13.3 -- Paris, August 11, 1973)] All.glories ( talk) 09:29, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The article is expanded and updated with new WP:RSs, images, and media. Tried to preserve, develop and build upon all the previous contributions and sources. Looking forward to feedback, corrections, and contributions. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 15:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (IAST: Abhaya Caraṇāravinda Bhakti-vedānta Svāmī Prabhupāda (1896–1977) was the twentieth-century spiritual, philosophical, and religious teacher from India who spread the Hare Krishna mantra and the teachings of “Krishna consciousness” to the world. Born as Abhay Charan De and later legally named Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami, he is often referred to simply as “Bhaktivedanta Swami”, "Srila Prabhupada", or simply “Prabhupada”.That's not an encyclopedic tone and a proper way to start an article. Please work on the article in your sandbox and not here. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 18:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
but his teachings and the Society he established continue to be influential", "
Scholars have commented, however, on the contrast between such controversial statements and the full picture of what Prabhupada actually taught and did", "
and arousing interest in them worldwide, Prabhupada made a lasting contribution", and much more. They read like advocacy and puffery, but Wikipedia is not for promoting agenda. Ratnahastin ( talk) 02:59, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks for all your comments. My apologies for overreacting to reverts of the updated revision. As Psychologist Guy has rightly noted above, I did act in good faith while replacing the current article with its expanded iteration. It was through such single edits that I previously updated two closely related articles on Bhaktisiddhanta (+44318 bytes) and Bhaktivinoda (+64138 bytes), both expansions accepted at that time by the community as improvements. So I did expect (somewhat naively) that the proposed revision would also be dealt with in terms of WP:PRESERVE rather than given short shrift. Still, I should've known better than to engage in edit warring, and I do apologize for the lapse of judgment and decorum on my part. The 48-hour block (my first to date) served me well. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 20:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
Again, thank you all for the above comments. As suggested by Soetermans, I've placed the draft back in my sandbox and:
Would you please suggest how to best proceed with the proposed revision? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 13:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Per consensus above:
Jroberson108 suggested above to consider merging "Principal writings" and "Critical assessments of Prabhupada's writings", the latter naturally falling under the former as a subsection. On the other hand, since "Critical assessments" is so developed and voluminous — and potentially growing ever larger as more scholarly reviews of his writings emerge — it might be more justified to keep it as a separate major section. Any thoughts? To facilitate the discussion, I added both:
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 04:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
Jroberson108 also suggested earlier to place Controversial statements under Challenges and controversies and, per WP:QUOTEFARM, to shrink or demote some of Prabhupada's isolated quotes in the context of the scholarly sources cited. With Jroberson108's suggestions in mind, I:
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 07:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Two essays by Ekkehard Lorenz in The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant[o] compile controversial statements made by Prabhupada on slavery, lower castes, Hitler, Darwin’s theory of evolution, the moon landing, and womenis a vast improvement compared to actually quoting his statements, which are pretty much all either ignorant, dumb, primitive, or reactionary, or all of the above. Wikipedia is not anybody's megaphone for crazy ideas. See WP:FRINGE:
Fringe sources can be used to support text that describes fringe theories provided that such sources have been noticed and given proper context with third-party, independent sources.Without the context, those quotes do not belong here. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 13:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
"the entire section has been white washed to core"?
“If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true, or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article”.If you know of any other academic sources that cover allegedly racist and antisemitic views of Prabhupada that are reliable and independent of ISKCON, please add them. Personally I couldn’t find any.
“[as an] ex-ISKCON member, Lorenz is clearly vengeful, perhaps to the point of misusing his source material”.(Smith 2004, p.189)
"An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject”;
“the characterization of these particular points as “views“ in this article … is giving them far too much prominence, as though they are the main pillars of his teachings” and thought “this constitutes a bias.”;
"the quotes do not belong on Wikipedia ... this understanding seems to be shared, one way or another, by many editors here."? In other words, as you say, their stated rationale (cited for each) may vary, and strongly — WP:FRINGE, or WP:UNDUE, or WP:OR, or WP:PROPORTION, or WP:SHIT, or whatever — but their conclusions concur: the quotes must go. Correct? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 09:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
unless you provide some strong WP:RSs interpreting them as an accurate portrayal of Prabhupada’s major views and teachingsbetween
the quotes do not belongand
this understanding. So, bad wording that suggests that all those people agree that the statements would be due if RS said that ACBSP actually thought like that. Well, I don't and I am not happy about being misrepresented. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 11:52, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
"The non-ISKCON reader, such as me..."(Smith 2004, p.189). I propose that JVS be cited for such verifiably neutral scholarly opinions. Otherwise, by the same token, should we also forego Byant & Ekstrand's volume altogether since most of its contributors, starting with the editors themselves, and including Lorenz, are either former or current ISKCON members (Smith 2004, p.179; Bryant & Ekstrand 2004, pp.ix-xiii) — and thus by definition cannot be trusted as neutral and objective?
"[The quotes] depict Prabhupada as 'racist, sexist, intellectually dishonest, ungrateful, unethical, unsophisticated, and unaware of the norms of the societies in which he lived' and blame his teachings 'for condoning abuse of children, abuse of women, and abuse by leadership, while promoting dictatorship, intolerance, and autocratic rule by the guru'."For one thing, it's much more balanced than including the quotes themselves, as Hob Gadling wrote above. For another, in my view, coming from ISKCON members-scholars, this further reinforces the quotes' critique. But I'm not opposed to removing them, if that's the consensus.
"a student of Indology with focus on medieval and ancient Sanskrit", which calls into question his reliability as a scholar at that time — as expressed by Smith: “[as an] ex-ISKCON member, Lorenz is clearly vengeful, perhaps to the point of misusing his source material”. (Smith 2004, p.189) Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 12:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
{{rfc|bio}}
to gain a consensus. I recall from
Cinosaur's version of the "Views" section prior to the revert, it mentioned Ekkehard Lorenz was an ex-ISKCON member, which if members are being dismissed as reliable sources due to association, I would think the same should apply to Lorenz based on past membership. Obviously both sides will hold biases, even if they try to remain neutral in their writing. This is why I asked earlier if there are any "sources on this topic from unbiased historians/scholars". If there aren't, then it might be best to remove those parts, which may end up being all or most of that section. As it is now, the entire section looks to be a
WP:QUOTEFARM trying to give
WP:UNDUE weight to a minority opinion on what appears to be a
WP:MINORASPECT of the entire page.
Jroberson108 (
talk) 22:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)Drawing upon the individual feedback, comments and suggestions (sometimes polar) and collective sense of direction, I've attempted a revised version of the section.
Changes:
Hopefully, this version will help resolve the impasse and give us a fresh start towards further improvement of the article. Please feel free to edit the revision in terms of enhancing its WP:EV. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 16:26, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
"Prabhupada dismissed reports of the 1969 moon landing, speaking in support of moon landing conspiracy theories."I see nothing there saying anything about supporting conspiracy theories, so it looks to be WP:OR. What I do see is a quote of him dismissing it based on what is said in Srimad Bhagavatam. There is no analysis from the author, just a quote, so it's pretty meaningless in my opinion. My interpretation would be that he doesn't support a conspiracy theory, but is a literalist in his faith, like many other religious figures. The other references in that section should probably be verified too. Jroberson108 ( talk) 18:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
The section about his views is still far from any improvement. I am sure that there is absolutely not need to clarify his views by the sources that are close to the subject. Ratnahastin ( talk) 07:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Prabhupada called democracy "the government of the asses", "nonsense", and "farce", at the same time praising the monarchial form of government and speaking favorably of dictatorship.It appears to be pieced together from various republished quotes without any of the author's conclusions, which would constitute WP:OR:
any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources.We want the analysis and conclusions of published authors.
all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.( WP:NPOV)
Wikipedia is not anybody's megaphone for crazy ideas. See WP:FRINGE" Baalseeker ( talk) 04:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 07:54, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Now that, thanks to many editors' feedback and contributions, the revised and expanded article's final part has been posted, I have also updated the lead in compliance with WP:LEAD. Looking forward to your comments. Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 08:05, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
The article states "On November 14, 1977, at the age of 81, after a long illness, Prabhupada passed away in his room at the Krishna Balaram Mandir", do we have any references telling us what this long illness was? I have personally found some sources that say it was from diabetes.
Some of Prabhupada's die-hard followers like Nityananda Das are saying there was a conspiracy theory to assassinate Prabhupada by poisoning [4], [5] whilst others such as Satsvarupa dasa Goswami have dismissed this. None of these sources would pass WP:RS and Nityananda's conspiracy theory is definitely WP:Fringe that is not supported by any medical evidence. There was a statement by a surgeon Andrew J. McIrvine who operated on Prabhupada who stated "He was in obviously poor health and showed signs of renal failure and was found to be diabetic" [6]. It would be useful to cite McIrvine but I doubt a reliable source documents this information. Psychologist Guy ( talk) 18:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
As requested by Cinosaur, providing my suggestions here. I am evaluating the same as per WP:GA standards. Redtigerxyz Talk 13:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Redtigerxyz: Thank you very much. Will work on these and other issues. Could you please add your point about overquoting in Views in this thread on this exact topic? Regards, Cinosaur ( talk) 10:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)