This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zongzi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 October 2021 and 9 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emilyyxx.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 05:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Why does this article (and wikipedia in general) not include tones for pinyin? It would make the articles much more useful, and seems like a basic quality check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.42.121 ( talk) 01:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
This entry is one of only seventeen that have won the March 2005 West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. -- Wetman 08:23, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.
I moved this to zongzi because rice dumpling is ambiguous between zongzi, yuanxiao and mochi, among many other things.
Pekinensis 22:08, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, Danny hand-wrapped 10 rice dumplings last week. diaf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hangtime23 ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I've always thought that these dumplings were wrapped in banana leaves. It is also mentioned briefly in another wikipedia article. Is this wrong; or should it be included in the article?
No, no. All wrong. Traditionally, the zongzi is wrapped in bamboo leaves. In countries where this is not readily available, banana leaf might be used but that is incorrect. Banana leaves impart a different smell and flavour to the rice than bamboo leaves. 17 November 2006
I disagree as well, something directly referred as zongzi is ONLY wrapped in bamboo leaves. Other leaves are used to wrap rice or even braided into baskets to do so but no person who grows up in a zongzi making/eating culture will refer to them as zongzi. Typically the are referred using other names. As in the case of the "Nonya Zhang" that is wrapped in pandan leaves, it is a regional specialty and even locally few refer to it as zongzi. Sjschen 13:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
i'm taiwanese and the zongzi i have is not bazhang. zongzi is exactly what this article describes, whereas bazhang isn't made with sweet rice, but rather rice floor like mochi. then again, i didn't know so many kinds of leaves could be used.
This food is typical of southern China, not northern China, correct? (Hunan on down.) If so, this should be noted in the article. Of course they're available everywhere in China, but I believe they're traditional to the southern provinces. Badagnani 01:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
What is 碱水粽? Has something been treated with salt, baking soda, lye, or some other chemical? Badagnani 22:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
A Chinese friend from Changsha says the following about the lye-treated zongzi: "Why zongzi named Jian shui zongzi cause Jian could made zongzi reserved more days than it without Jian ,they usually have no things in them." Is it correct that the lye treatment (碱水), in addition to imparting a yellowish color to the glutinous rice, also extends the shelf life of the zongzi, as she says? Badagnani 05:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Should the category "Dim sum" be added to this article? Badagnani 18:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone actually put Jujubes in zongzi? I can't tell if this is a joke or just someone's bad taste. If it's not a typical filling it shouldn't be here. Flourdustedhazzn 04:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The article formerly had red-cooked pork (紅燒肉) as one of the possible fillings, and it was deleted and changed to Char siu. These are not the same thing. Is red-cooked pork a possible zongzi filling ina ny of the regions where zongzi are prepared? (This may involve actually searching the Web in the Chinese language rather than relying on one's experience and knowledge.) Badagnani 14:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What language is "bak chang" (肉粽) in? It doesn't seem to be Cantonese. This alternate name isn't described in the article, though one link has this name in it. Badagnani 04:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be Hokkien. Confirmation from Hokkien speakers? Badagnani 04:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I have that curiosity as well. Normally we would see it written as 肉粽 but Hokkien and Teochew people all call it similarly as "Bazang". As a non-Minnan speaker I don't understand how that "ba" comes from. 肉 is pronouced as "hiak8" or "liok8" in Hokkien and "nêg8" in Teochew, so how it becomes "Ba". Both pronunciations do not come close to "BA" at all. Therefore, I've done some research which character could be "BA" in "Bazang".
My finding is that it could be from the other word that means female pig, 豝. This word is pronounced "ba" in most of dialects, whether it be Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, and Hakka. Would it possibly be this character that Minnan people use to call in "Ba-zang"? Perhaps, it is a local lexicon with historical background behind "bazang" in Minnan localities. Perhaps, in the ancient time they mostly used meat of female pigs to make it, is it possible? Or, Chinese people normally prefer eating female pork.
There are more examples of using the word "ba" in Chinese loaned words in Thailand: (a) Minced pork is sometimes called by the word "ba-chor". This is obviously not a Thai word, but taken from Teochew word, perhaps 豝脞. (b)"Ba-mi" is used to call Teochew-styled noodles. This dish is normally made from egg noodles with grilled pork slices and some minced pork in it. I initially thought it was from 肉麵 which is cognate with 肉粽 as well, but also had a wonder why it's not called by any word that means "pork" directly. But now after thinking about "Bazang" and its possibility of relating to the word 豝, now I guess it might be from 豝麵 instead. (c) Some people also call "pig" in general as "dy-ba". It could be from 豬豝 or 彘豝 to convey both male and female pigs as a general term.
So my hypothesis is: maybe originally Hokkien and Teochew people used 豝 in many words but then ceded to other commonly used character, i.e. 肉 later on. However, they still retained the pronunciation of 豝 in certain places where 豝 was used. Therefore, 肉 is also pronounced as "ba" nowdays.
If there is any Hokkien or Teochew people who knows and give us an explanation about it, that'd be great! Thanks
Where I live, glutinous rice is effectively impossible to find, so I am wondering if there is any other possible rice or starchy component that can be used and still produce a zongzi-like result? I am thinking of using short grain rice cut with rolled oats, since all high-amylopectin grains are hard to find outside of custom-ordering from the farm supply shop. Suggestions, anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JFMello ( talk • contribs) 05:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I saw the article listed "bánh tro" as the Vietnamese version of this zongzi but I don't think Viet bánh tro is similar to this zongzi. Bánh tro is always sweet and small, traditionally has no filling, though nowadays bánh tro can contain sweet mung bean. Bánh tro is eaten as a dessert or used in worship, especially in Tết Đoan Ngọ. You definitely can't have any of the following ingredient in bánh tro.
Through the description, I think zongzi is more similar to bánh ú than to bánh tro. Sunnyrain90 ( talk) 03:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
At this moment, the caption on the photo comparing the 2 different shapes of wrapping is directly contradicted by the text elsewhere in the article. Can somebody who knows for sure please resolve the contradiction, preferably with a WP:RS? I am much more familiar with the tetrahedral-shaped variety, but am unsure whether it is attributed to Northern or Southern style. Reify-tech ( talk) 16:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Currently both the caption and the description in the text are wrong. The Chinese version of the page has the same photo with the caption saying that the one of the left is Northern and the one on the right is Southern: 中國大陸的南方粽(右)及北方粽(左). The Chinese page also goes into more detail on the differences between Northern and Southern varieties, and the descriptions are consistent with the caption there. This caption has been wrong on the English page for a long time. I remember correcting it once already years ago, but now it's been changed back (presumably to be consistent with the text). I'm not sure where the error in the text came from. -- Clearish ( talk) 00:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I accidentally came across the Tamale which seems like a Western equivalent, I can't believe it, for someone who wants to develop the etymology 129.180.157.162 ( talk) 06:53, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Zongzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Should this section be deleted? The reasoning is weak at best, and the sources are clickbait articles.
Kathl33n ( talk) 21:36, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Where is the evidence that zonzi dates back to the Spring and Autumn Period (771–476 BC)?
This claim is widely propagated using similar phrasing throughout the Chinese webspace (such as the news.youth.cn 中国青年网 cited), but not properly substantiated (by identifying the contemporary document to substantiate it).
The S&A Period claim is made for one by the Baidu Encyclopedia article (on jiaoshu 角黍), yet it only cites as the earliest documented mention of jiaoshu is the Western Jin dynasty book Fengtuji by Zhou Chu (周处, d. 297 AD). Well Baidu is mistaken, because as someone wrote in the Ja Wiki an earlier book called the Fengsu Tongyi (c. 195 AD) mentions jiaoshu, as can be verified here. [1]
But either way the documentation on the confection only goes back to 2nd or 3rd century AD, not 5th century B.C.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 20:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Probably worth considering adding a section on these? GRM ( talk) 07:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zongzi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 October 2021 and 9 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Emilyyxx.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 05:30, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Why does this article (and wikipedia in general) not include tones for pinyin? It would make the articles much more useful, and seems like a basic quality check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.42.121 ( talk) 01:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
This entry is one of only seventeen that have won the March 2005 West Dakota Prize for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence. -- Wetman 08:23, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This entry, one of an unprecedented 52, has won the September 2005 West Dakota Prize, awarded for successfully employing the expression "legend states" in a complete sentence.
I moved this to zongzi because rice dumpling is ambiguous between zongzi, yuanxiao and mochi, among many other things.
Pekinensis 22:08, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Also, Danny hand-wrapped 10 rice dumplings last week. diaf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hangtime23 ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I've always thought that these dumplings were wrapped in banana leaves. It is also mentioned briefly in another wikipedia article. Is this wrong; or should it be included in the article?
No, no. All wrong. Traditionally, the zongzi is wrapped in bamboo leaves. In countries where this is not readily available, banana leaf might be used but that is incorrect. Banana leaves impart a different smell and flavour to the rice than bamboo leaves. 17 November 2006
I disagree as well, something directly referred as zongzi is ONLY wrapped in bamboo leaves. Other leaves are used to wrap rice or even braided into baskets to do so but no person who grows up in a zongzi making/eating culture will refer to them as zongzi. Typically the are referred using other names. As in the case of the "Nonya Zhang" that is wrapped in pandan leaves, it is a regional specialty and even locally few refer to it as zongzi. Sjschen 13:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
i'm taiwanese and the zongzi i have is not bazhang. zongzi is exactly what this article describes, whereas bazhang isn't made with sweet rice, but rather rice floor like mochi. then again, i didn't know so many kinds of leaves could be used.
This food is typical of southern China, not northern China, correct? (Hunan on down.) If so, this should be noted in the article. Of course they're available everywhere in China, but I believe they're traditional to the southern provinces. Badagnani 01:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
What is 碱水粽? Has something been treated with salt, baking soda, lye, or some other chemical? Badagnani 22:19, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
A Chinese friend from Changsha says the following about the lye-treated zongzi: "Why zongzi named Jian shui zongzi cause Jian could made zongzi reserved more days than it without Jian ,they usually have no things in them." Is it correct that the lye treatment (碱水), in addition to imparting a yellowish color to the glutinous rice, also extends the shelf life of the zongzi, as she says? Badagnani 05:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Should the category "Dim sum" be added to this article? Badagnani 18:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone actually put Jujubes in zongzi? I can't tell if this is a joke or just someone's bad taste. If it's not a typical filling it shouldn't be here. Flourdustedhazzn 04:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The article formerly had red-cooked pork (紅燒肉) as one of the possible fillings, and it was deleted and changed to Char siu. These are not the same thing. Is red-cooked pork a possible zongzi filling ina ny of the regions where zongzi are prepared? (This may involve actually searching the Web in the Chinese language rather than relying on one's experience and knowledge.) Badagnani 14:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
What language is "bak chang" (肉粽) in? It doesn't seem to be Cantonese. This alternate name isn't described in the article, though one link has this name in it. Badagnani 04:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be Hokkien. Confirmation from Hokkien speakers? Badagnani 04:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I have that curiosity as well. Normally we would see it written as 肉粽 but Hokkien and Teochew people all call it similarly as "Bazang". As a non-Minnan speaker I don't understand how that "ba" comes from. 肉 is pronouced as "hiak8" or "liok8" in Hokkien and "nêg8" in Teochew, so how it becomes "Ba". Both pronunciations do not come close to "BA" at all. Therefore, I've done some research which character could be "BA" in "Bazang".
My finding is that it could be from the other word that means female pig, 豝. This word is pronounced "ba" in most of dialects, whether it be Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, and Hakka. Would it possibly be this character that Minnan people use to call in "Ba-zang"? Perhaps, it is a local lexicon with historical background behind "bazang" in Minnan localities. Perhaps, in the ancient time they mostly used meat of female pigs to make it, is it possible? Or, Chinese people normally prefer eating female pork.
There are more examples of using the word "ba" in Chinese loaned words in Thailand: (a) Minced pork is sometimes called by the word "ba-chor". This is obviously not a Thai word, but taken from Teochew word, perhaps 豝脞. (b)"Ba-mi" is used to call Teochew-styled noodles. This dish is normally made from egg noodles with grilled pork slices and some minced pork in it. I initially thought it was from 肉麵 which is cognate with 肉粽 as well, but also had a wonder why it's not called by any word that means "pork" directly. But now after thinking about "Bazang" and its possibility of relating to the word 豝, now I guess it might be from 豝麵 instead. (c) Some people also call "pig" in general as "dy-ba". It could be from 豬豝 or 彘豝 to convey both male and female pigs as a general term.
So my hypothesis is: maybe originally Hokkien and Teochew people used 豝 in many words but then ceded to other commonly used character, i.e. 肉 later on. However, they still retained the pronunciation of 豝 in certain places where 豝 was used. Therefore, 肉 is also pronounced as "ba" nowdays.
If there is any Hokkien or Teochew people who knows and give us an explanation about it, that'd be great! Thanks
Where I live, glutinous rice is effectively impossible to find, so I am wondering if there is any other possible rice or starchy component that can be used and still produce a zongzi-like result? I am thinking of using short grain rice cut with rolled oats, since all high-amylopectin grains are hard to find outside of custom-ordering from the farm supply shop. Suggestions, anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JFMello ( talk • contribs) 05:09, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I saw the article listed "bánh tro" as the Vietnamese version of this zongzi but I don't think Viet bánh tro is similar to this zongzi. Bánh tro is always sweet and small, traditionally has no filling, though nowadays bánh tro can contain sweet mung bean. Bánh tro is eaten as a dessert or used in worship, especially in Tết Đoan Ngọ. You definitely can't have any of the following ingredient in bánh tro.
Through the description, I think zongzi is more similar to bánh ú than to bánh tro. Sunnyrain90 ( talk) 03:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
At this moment, the caption on the photo comparing the 2 different shapes of wrapping is directly contradicted by the text elsewhere in the article. Can somebody who knows for sure please resolve the contradiction, preferably with a WP:RS? I am much more familiar with the tetrahedral-shaped variety, but am unsure whether it is attributed to Northern or Southern style. Reify-tech ( talk) 16:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Currently both the caption and the description in the text are wrong. The Chinese version of the page has the same photo with the caption saying that the one of the left is Northern and the one on the right is Southern: 中國大陸的南方粽(右)及北方粽(左). The Chinese page also goes into more detail on the differences between Northern and Southern varieties, and the descriptions are consistent with the caption there. This caption has been wrong on the English page for a long time. I remember correcting it once already years ago, but now it's been changed back (presumably to be consistent with the text). I'm not sure where the error in the text came from. -- Clearish ( talk) 00:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
I accidentally came across the Tamale which seems like a Western equivalent, I can't believe it, for someone who wants to develop the etymology 129.180.157.162 ( talk) 06:53, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Zongzi. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:07, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Should this section be deleted? The reasoning is weak at best, and the sources are clickbait articles.
Kathl33n ( talk) 21:36, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
Where is the evidence that zonzi dates back to the Spring and Autumn Period (771–476 BC)?
This claim is widely propagated using similar phrasing throughout the Chinese webspace (such as the news.youth.cn 中国青年网 cited), but not properly substantiated (by identifying the contemporary document to substantiate it).
The S&A Period claim is made for one by the Baidu Encyclopedia article (on jiaoshu 角黍), yet it only cites as the earliest documented mention of jiaoshu is the Western Jin dynasty book Fengtuji by Zhou Chu (周处, d. 297 AD). Well Baidu is mistaken, because as someone wrote in the Ja Wiki an earlier book called the Fengsu Tongyi (c. 195 AD) mentions jiaoshu, as can be verified here. [1]
But either way the documentation on the confection only goes back to 2nd or 3rd century AD, not 5th century B.C.-- Kiyoweap ( talk) 20:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Probably worth considering adding a section on these? GRM ( talk) 07:14, 24 August 2022 (UTC)