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When a request for a Citation has been made, one should wait for an answer for a time and then delete the challenged assertion because it cannot be verified by the reader if he or she is so minded. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 22:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Nicely done! GeorgeLouis 01:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The Orphism (religion) article gives a differing creation myth than this one. - DNewhall 15:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I found that hidden in chapter Orphic Zagreus:
-- Tomdo08 ( talk) 20:52, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph...
For a couple of reasons, besides being hard to read. For one, it mostly repeats, at greater length but less understandably, points about Zagreus's genealogy that have already been made. Second, it makes a synthetic claim (that "Zeus" means "Hades" in this context, if I understand it correctly) based on primary sources. Although it's not that much of a stretch here, making a synthetic claim based on primary sources is considered OR. Bacchiad ( talk) 01:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Kereyi's book which is cited a few times and listed in the references goes into detail on this. It's been a while so I couldn't say where. It almost looks word for word like something in Kerenyi but I no longer have a copy. Czarnibog ( talk) 12:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Is the name of Zagros mountain range in Iran derived from this Zagreus? Aminabzz ( talk) 11:14, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Wikifan153 ( talk) 21:05, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
I was hoping that Zagreus could be added to the "Residents" section of the Greek underworld Template. Seeing as he is believed to be a son of Hades it only makes sense that he was probably born in the Underworld, or at the very least spent some time there.
( 161.29.246.205 ( talk) 07:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC))
I'm new to editing wiki pages so there may be some errors or confusion on my part. But I was wondering, out of curiosity, is there any particular reason an, "in popular culture" section hasn't been added to this article? -- DeerSalad ( talk) 05:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 05:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I agree with Paul August. First of all, in regards to notability: Zagreus is the main and only playable character in the video games Hades. This game won many 2020 Game of the Year awards. It is very well known, and is most likely responsible for a massive uptick in searches for "Zagreus". And it is worth noting that the underlying Greek mythology is very central to the story and this character. A segment of the game even involves Zagreus and Dionysis planning to trick Orpheus into thinking they are the same person. Pretty relevant, and an interesting interpretation of the Orphic version of the story, eh? Secondly, now to address your requirement of "scholarly sources". How is that a requirement? And what does that mean? Traditional "scholarly sources" would not exist for a recent pop culture reference. I can find plenty of internet articles addressing the Greek mythology basis behind the video game character. But also, other Greek mythological characters have "in popular culture" sections, without sources, that are less notable. The Hades article itself has it's own "in popular culture" section which specifically mentions this very video game Hades. Paul, it appears that you are opposed to "in popular culture" sections in general, as they can often become lengthy lists of irrelevant and unnotable references. I generally agree with you. However, in this case, I think this video game reference is just so notable that it should be added. Perhaps as a paragraph describing how the game interpreted the mythology in developing the character, and stating similarities and differences? I dunno, I've just seen so many less notable popular culture references included in wikipedia articles, and it seems so warranted here. And in looking at the article history, you can see that a lot of well-intentioned people wanted to add it. Cougroyalty ( talk) 08:05, 7 March 2021 (UTC) Quick edit to try to fix formatting. Doing this on my phone. Hopefully this work. Cougroyalty ( talk) 08:09, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- About the accuracy of the Greek mythology portrayed in the game Hades:
https://screenrant.com/hades-greek-mythology-real-story-explained-underworld-zagreus/
- Discussing why the game developers chose Zagreus as the main character:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/5/22315749/hades-theseus-worst-character-zagreus-supergiant
Could these be used as the 'required' sources?
Cougroyalty (
talk)
15:48, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Proposed text:
Zagreus is not well represented in
popular culture, partly because there are so few stories about him. In fact, this is why
Supergiant Games chose to feature Zagreus as their main character in their 2020 video game
Hades, as it allowed them more creative flexibility.
[1]
[2] In the game, Zagreus is the son of
Hades and is attempting to escape the underworld, discover the identify of his mother (revealed to be
Persephone), and to find her and learn why she left.
[3] The game even references the Orphic version of the Zagreus story, of Zagreus being a sort of previous version of
Dionysus, by having Zagreus and Dionysus trick
Orpheus into thinking they are the same person.
[1] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cougroyalty (
talk •
contribs)
18:02, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
References
(Prior discussion above at
Talk:Zagreus#Zagreus in videogame Hades)
Should an "In Popular Culture" section be added to reference the video game character from the game Hades?
Cougroyalty (
talk)
16:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Zagreus is the protagonist of the 2020 video game Hadessigned, Rosguill talk 02:39, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
References
Resolution - We have reached an agreement to include the "In Popular Culture" reference in the form of the new abbreviated proposed text just above. I want to thank everyone for providing feedback and participating in this civil and constructive debate. This is my first time using a form of wikipedia dispute resolution, and it went better than I expected. I will go ahead and remove the Request for Comment tag. Hopefully I do it correctly. Thanks! Cougroyalty ( talk) 15:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion was copied from User talk:Michael Aurel:
Re this edit, I haven't thought much about that article since I wrote most of it six years (or so) ago. In particular, since there was at that time an ongoing debate surrounding the sparagmos, the anthropogony and Orphism, I would not be surprised if an update of that part of the article was warranted. For example Meisner's book was unavailable at the time, and would be a very useful source. It's a very interesting subject, and I would encourage you take a look at our article with an eye to updating it as you think needed. Paul August ☎ 14:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
However, when and to what extent there existed any Orphic tradition which included these elements is the subject of open debateessentially covers the debate of the last 20 or so years. The main possibility for expansion would probably be elaborating on this and presenting the views of a few of the more prominent scholars in recent times (such as Edmonds, Bernabé, and Brisson), and, as you say, implementing a few sources which have been written since your work at that article (e.g. Meisner, Chrysanthou, Heinrichs). I don't think there is anything at that page which is actually out of date in any way, mostly because your work there is a very faithful representation of the ancient sources, but there are probably places where older sources (e.g. Guthrie, Linforth) could be phased out a bit, and we could also add Bernabé's edition alongside Kern for the fragments. It is a very interesting subject, and it would make a good project. [...] Michael Aurel ( talk) 02:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
End of copied text (with ping to Michael Aurel).
Paul August ☎ 14:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
This is how Comparetti interpreted the statement “I am a child of Earth and starry Sky” in the gold tablets—“Earth” referring to the Titanic nature and “starry Sky” referring to the Dionysiac—and recent scholars have continued to suggest this interpretation, only two of the five recent sources (Bernabé and San Cristóbal, Bernabé 2011) actually seem to mention the passage. So while there seems to be at least one scholar (Bernabé) who takes this view in the modern day, I can't find anything convincing to suggest that there are others (except possibly San Cristóbal), and that probably isn't enough to warrant a mention here. – Michael Aurel ( talk) 05:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Proclus also refers to the "mythical chastisement of the Titans and the generation of all mortal living beings out of them", connecting the punishment of the Titans with the birth of mankind. [9]
whichever scholar I have read most recently, when considering Chrysanthou, we should also consider considering: BMCR 2021.03.13
References
Are the names Agreus and Zagreus related? Aminabzz ( talk) 14:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Zagreus from zoe Life Zoo Animal + agreyo hunt catch, trapp, capture = Hunter Lifecatcher = Jaguar. The Same in Jupiter it s Zeus Patir = God Father of Life. 2A01:C22:B191:8200:2061:8D5A:31AC:D0A0 ( talk) 10:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 March 2024 and 13 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Studentofthegame99 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: TheMostEver.
— Assignment last updated by TheMostEver ( talk) 11:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
There have been various attempts today and yesterday at this article and our Demeter, Dionysus and Zeus articles to assert that Zagreus is, in Greek mythology, the child of Zeus and Demeter, and that Dionysus is the child of Zeus and Demeter. No clear citations of reliable secondary sources have been provided, nor even of primary sources. Text has been added claiming that Nonnus or Apollodorus somewhere are sources for this claim, e.g. "The best-known source mentioning the story of Zagreus as the son of Zeus and Demeter, who later is reborn as Dionysus, is the "Library" of Pseudo-Apollodorus ...". It's not said where in Apollodorus that claim is made and the latest edit summary when re-adding that text at Demeter contradicted it, saying "There is no specific citation in the poems attributed to Nonnus of Panopolis or in the "Library" of Pseudo-Apollodorus that explicitly states that Zagreus is the son of Demeter." [1]
Per
Wikipedia:Verifiability, a core policy, All material in
Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an
inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material.
Per
WP:SYNTH, we must not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Vague statements, well-phrased but making peculiar claims alongside superfluous digressions to add the appearance of veracity (much in the manner of LLM-generated text) are not citations.
NebY (
talk)
18:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
References
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
When a request for a Citation has been made, one should wait for an answer for a time and then delete the challenged assertion because it cannot be verified by the reader if he or she is so minded. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 22:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Nicely done! GeorgeLouis 01:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The Orphism (religion) article gives a differing creation myth than this one. - DNewhall 15:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I found that hidden in chapter Orphic Zagreus:
-- Tomdo08 ( talk) 20:52, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph...
For a couple of reasons, besides being hard to read. For one, it mostly repeats, at greater length but less understandably, points about Zagreus's genealogy that have already been made. Second, it makes a synthetic claim (that "Zeus" means "Hades" in this context, if I understand it correctly) based on primary sources. Although it's not that much of a stretch here, making a synthetic claim based on primary sources is considered OR. Bacchiad ( talk) 01:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Kereyi's book which is cited a few times and listed in the references goes into detail on this. It's been a while so I couldn't say where. It almost looks word for word like something in Kerenyi but I no longer have a copy. Czarnibog ( talk) 12:10, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
Is the name of Zagros mountain range in Iran derived from this Zagreus? Aminabzz ( talk) 11:14, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Wikifan153 ( talk) 21:05, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
I was hoping that Zagreus could be added to the "Residents" section of the Greek underworld Template. Seeing as he is believed to be a son of Hades it only makes sense that he was probably born in the Underworld, or at the very least spent some time there.
( 161.29.246.205 ( talk) 07:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC))
I'm new to editing wiki pages so there may be some errors or confusion on my part. But I was wondering, out of curiosity, is there any particular reason an, "in popular culture" section hasn't been added to this article? -- DeerSalad ( talk) 05:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC) 05:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't think I agree with Paul August. First of all, in regards to notability: Zagreus is the main and only playable character in the video games Hades. This game won many 2020 Game of the Year awards. It is very well known, and is most likely responsible for a massive uptick in searches for "Zagreus". And it is worth noting that the underlying Greek mythology is very central to the story and this character. A segment of the game even involves Zagreus and Dionysis planning to trick Orpheus into thinking they are the same person. Pretty relevant, and an interesting interpretation of the Orphic version of the story, eh? Secondly, now to address your requirement of "scholarly sources". How is that a requirement? And what does that mean? Traditional "scholarly sources" would not exist for a recent pop culture reference. I can find plenty of internet articles addressing the Greek mythology basis behind the video game character. But also, other Greek mythological characters have "in popular culture" sections, without sources, that are less notable. The Hades article itself has it's own "in popular culture" section which specifically mentions this very video game Hades. Paul, it appears that you are opposed to "in popular culture" sections in general, as they can often become lengthy lists of irrelevant and unnotable references. I generally agree with you. However, in this case, I think this video game reference is just so notable that it should be added. Perhaps as a paragraph describing how the game interpreted the mythology in developing the character, and stating similarities and differences? I dunno, I've just seen so many less notable popular culture references included in wikipedia articles, and it seems so warranted here. And in looking at the article history, you can see that a lot of well-intentioned people wanted to add it. Cougroyalty ( talk) 08:05, 7 March 2021 (UTC) Quick edit to try to fix formatting. Doing this on my phone. Hopefully this work. Cougroyalty ( talk) 08:09, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- About the accuracy of the Greek mythology portrayed in the game Hades:
https://screenrant.com/hades-greek-mythology-real-story-explained-underworld-zagreus/
- Discussing why the game developers chose Zagreus as the main character:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/5/22315749/hades-theseus-worst-character-zagreus-supergiant
Could these be used as the 'required' sources?
Cougroyalty (
talk)
15:48, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Proposed text:
Zagreus is not well represented in
popular culture, partly because there are so few stories about him. In fact, this is why
Supergiant Games chose to feature Zagreus as their main character in their 2020 video game
Hades, as it allowed them more creative flexibility.
[1]
[2] In the game, Zagreus is the son of
Hades and is attempting to escape the underworld, discover the identify of his mother (revealed to be
Persephone), and to find her and learn why she left.
[3] The game even references the Orphic version of the Zagreus story, of Zagreus being a sort of previous version of
Dionysus, by having Zagreus and Dionysus trick
Orpheus into thinking they are the same person.
[1] — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cougroyalty (
talk •
contribs)
18:02, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
References
(Prior discussion above at
Talk:Zagreus#Zagreus in videogame Hades)
Should an "In Popular Culture" section be added to reference the video game character from the game Hades?
Cougroyalty (
talk)
16:55, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Zagreus is the protagonist of the 2020 video game Hadessigned, Rosguill talk 02:39, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
References
Resolution - We have reached an agreement to include the "In Popular Culture" reference in the form of the new abbreviated proposed text just above. I want to thank everyone for providing feedback and participating in this civil and constructive debate. This is my first time using a form of wikipedia dispute resolution, and it went better than I expected. I will go ahead and remove the Request for Comment tag. Hopefully I do it correctly. Thanks! Cougroyalty ( talk) 15:45, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion was copied from User talk:Michael Aurel:
Re this edit, I haven't thought much about that article since I wrote most of it six years (or so) ago. In particular, since there was at that time an ongoing debate surrounding the sparagmos, the anthropogony and Orphism, I would not be surprised if an update of that part of the article was warranted. For example Meisner's book was unavailable at the time, and would be a very useful source. It's a very interesting subject, and I would encourage you take a look at our article with an eye to updating it as you think needed. Paul August ☎ 14:21, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
However, when and to what extent there existed any Orphic tradition which included these elements is the subject of open debateessentially covers the debate of the last 20 or so years. The main possibility for expansion would probably be elaborating on this and presenting the views of a few of the more prominent scholars in recent times (such as Edmonds, Bernabé, and Brisson), and, as you say, implementing a few sources which have been written since your work at that article (e.g. Meisner, Chrysanthou, Heinrichs). I don't think there is anything at that page which is actually out of date in any way, mostly because your work there is a very faithful representation of the ancient sources, but there are probably places where older sources (e.g. Guthrie, Linforth) could be phased out a bit, and we could also add Bernabé's edition alongside Kern for the fragments. It is a very interesting subject, and it would make a good project. [...] Michael Aurel ( talk) 02:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
End of copied text (with ping to Michael Aurel).
Paul August ☎ 14:20, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
This is how Comparetti interpreted the statement “I am a child of Earth and starry Sky” in the gold tablets—“Earth” referring to the Titanic nature and “starry Sky” referring to the Dionysiac—and recent scholars have continued to suggest this interpretation, only two of the five recent sources (Bernabé and San Cristóbal, Bernabé 2011) actually seem to mention the passage. So while there seems to be at least one scholar (Bernabé) who takes this view in the modern day, I can't find anything convincing to suggest that there are others (except possibly San Cristóbal), and that probably isn't enough to warrant a mention here. – Michael Aurel ( talk) 05:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Proclus also refers to the "mythical chastisement of the Titans and the generation of all mortal living beings out of them", connecting the punishment of the Titans with the birth of mankind. [9]
whichever scholar I have read most recently, when considering Chrysanthou, we should also consider considering: BMCR 2021.03.13
References
Are the names Agreus and Zagreus related? Aminabzz ( talk) 14:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Zagreus from zoe Life Zoo Animal + agreyo hunt catch, trapp, capture = Hunter Lifecatcher = Jaguar. The Same in Jupiter it s Zeus Patir = God Father of Life. 2A01:C22:B191:8200:2061:8D5A:31AC:D0A0 ( talk) 10:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 March 2024 and 13 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Studentofthegame99 ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: TheMostEver.
— Assignment last updated by TheMostEver ( talk) 11:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
There have been various attempts today and yesterday at this article and our Demeter, Dionysus and Zeus articles to assert that Zagreus is, in Greek mythology, the child of Zeus and Demeter, and that Dionysus is the child of Zeus and Demeter. No clear citations of reliable secondary sources have been provided, nor even of primary sources. Text has been added claiming that Nonnus or Apollodorus somewhere are sources for this claim, e.g. "The best-known source mentioning the story of Zagreus as the son of Zeus and Demeter, who later is reborn as Dionysus, is the "Library" of Pseudo-Apollodorus ...". It's not said where in Apollodorus that claim is made and the latest edit summary when re-adding that text at Demeter contradicted it, saying "There is no specific citation in the poems attributed to Nonnus of Panopolis or in the "Library" of Pseudo-Apollodorus that explicitly states that Zagreus is the son of Demeter." [1]
Per
Wikipedia:Verifiability, a core policy, All material in
Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an
inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material.
Per
WP:SYNTH, we must not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Vague statements, well-phrased but making peculiar claims alongside superfluous digressions to add the appearance of veracity (much in the manner of LLM-generated text) are not citations.
NebY (
talk)
18:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
References