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The introduction to The Expedition of Cyrus (Oxford World's Classics, 2005, page xiv), quotes Xenophon saying he had come as philos to Cyrus not as general, company commander or a soldier - ranks whose pay he had described shortly before. That is not in a relationship of "service for cash". In this context is it correct to describe Xenophon as a mercenary?
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 21:57, 28 February 2017 (UTC).
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Polity of the Lacedaemonians which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 07:01, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I removed a large section on the relationship between Medes and Persians in the Cyropedia. The section was originally added (in essentially the same form as now) in this edit by a user who was explicitly arguing for the reliability of the Cyropaedia as historical beyond what most scholars would advocate; they simultaneously added a similar, much longer section to the Cyropaedia article, which was soon removed at that article with an edit note describing it as "almost entirely ORIGINAL RESEARCH." It's also mentioned on the talk page of that article, with a note that the sources (which are the same as cited in the section here) do not support what is actually said, (Olmstead is specifically singled out there, and is one of the sources used in the exact same way in this article).
It's worth noting that the current version of that section (in addition to being largely original research/synthesis) explicitly refers readers to the now deleted section of the Cyropaedia article (that's actually how I came across the above history, by going to that article from here and seeing it didn't have that section anymore and seeing on its talk page what happened to it). Even if the material could be reworked in some form (and I'd want it based on sources that specifically talk about Xenophon's portrayal of the Medes and the Persians' relationship, not just sources that talk about the Medes in general), that explicit "see there" sentence should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Just a Rube ( talk • contribs) 11:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC) Just a Rube ( talk) 11:46, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Xenophon wrote the Cyropaedia to outline his political and moral philosophy. He did this by endowing a fictional version of the boyhood of Cyrus the Great, founder of the first Persian Empire, with the qualities of what Xenophon considered the ideal ruler. Historians have asked whether Xenophon's portrait of Cyrus was accurate or if Xenophon imbued Cyrus with events from Xenophon's own life. The consensus is that Cyrus’s career is best outlined in the Histories of Herodotus. But Steven Hirsch writes, "Yet there are occasions when it can be confirmed from Oriental evidence that Xenophon is correct where Herodotus is wrong or lacks information. A case in point involves the ancestry of Cyrus."[19]
Herodotus contradicts Xenophon at several other points, most notably in the matter of Cyrus’s relationship with the Median Kingdom. Herodotus says that Cyrus led a rebellion against his maternal grandfather, Astyages king of Media, and defeated him, thereafter (improbably) keeping Astyages in his court for the remainder of his life (Histories 1.130). The Medes were thus "reduced to subjection" (1.130) and became "slaves" (1.129) to the Persians 20 years before the capture of Babylon in 539 BC. The Cyropaedia relates instead that Astyages died and was succeeded by his son Cyaxares II, the maternal uncle of Cyrus (1.5.2). In the initial campaign against the Lydians, Babylonians and their allies, the Medians were led by Cyaxares and the Persians by Cyrus, who was crown prince of the Persians, since his father was still alive (4.5.17). Xenophon relates that at this time the Medes were the strongest of the kingdoms that opposed the Babylonians (1.5.2).
There is an echo of this statement, verifying Xenophon and contradicting Herodotus, in the Harran Stele, a document from the court of Nabonidus.[20] In the entry for year 14 or 15 of his reign (542-540 BC), Nabonidus speaks of his enemies as the kings of Egypt, the Medes, and the Arabs. There is no mention of the Persians, although according to Herodotus and the current consensus the Medians had been made "slaves" of the Persians several years previously. It does not seem that Nabonidus would be completely misled about who his enemies were, or who was really in control over the Medes and Persians just one to three years before his kingdom fell to their armies.
Other archaeological evidence supporting Xenophon’s picture of a confederation of Medes and Persians, rather than a subjugation of the Medes by the Persians, comes from the bas-reliefs in the stairway at Persepolis. These show no distinction in official rank or status between the Persian and Median nobility. Although Olmstead followed the consensus view that Cyrus subjugated the Medes, he nevertheless wrote, "Medes were honored equally with Persians; they were employed in high office and were chosen to lead Persian armies."[21] A more extensive list of considerations related to the credibility of the Cyropaedia’s picture of the relationship between the Medes and Persians is found on the Cyropaedia page.
Both Herodotus (1.123,214) and Xenophon (1.5.1,2,4, 8.5.20) present Cyrus as about 40 years old when his forces captured Babylon. In the Nabonidus Chronicle, there is mention of the death of the wife of the king (name not given) within a month after the capture of Babylon.[22] It has been conjectured that this was Cyrus’s first wife, which lends credibility to the Cyropaedia’s statement (8.5.19) that Cyaxares II gave his daughter in marriage to Cyrus soon (but not immediately) after the fall of the city, with the kingdom of Media as her dowry. When Cyaxares died about two years later the Median kingdom passed peaceably to Cyrus, so that this would be the true beginning of the Medo-Persian Empire under just one monarch.
So you really think deleting the whole thing is appropriate? Maybe I should ask a different question: is there any published and serious discussion about Xenophon possibility getting some things more right than Herodotus?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 23:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Looping back down before we indent off the side of the screen. As I said yesterday, I wouldn't object too much to leaving the couple of sentences that more to less say that; I'm mostly concerned to hang it all on Hirsch without having seen his original article to verify it, as that section actively misuses every other source it cites. But more broadly, the sources I've seen basically treat it as Xenophon writing the Cyropaedia (as opposed to his other works) as an intentional work of fiction designed to illustrate his view of an ideal ruler/philosophy/etc. (there is enough disagreement in the literature on the exact specifics of what he is trying to do that I feel uncomfortable trying to summarize). There is agreement, however, that he regularly invents characters and incidents that don't exist and never happened; when he does use names and events that did exist, he alters them such that they have little relationship either to how they are attested in his known sources or other sources that we have. While he occasionally gets things right that Herodotus gets wrong (for instance, Herodotus doesn't represent Cyrus as the son of a king, while Xenophon has his father already being a king of a minor Persian state, which we know from inscriptions to actually be the case), any facts are generally seen as incidental to his purposes and subordinate to his narrative needs (and I can throw in citations to explicitly say that). As well (just my observations from articles that I have read, not something I feel confident stating) in general, when Herodotus gets something wrong that the Cyropaedia gets right, the focus of most historical analysis I've seen tends to be "why did Herodotus (or his sources) get this wrong" (for instance, there's discussion of the deemphasis of Cyrus's paternal ancestry in Herodotus possibly representing the influence of later propaganda by Darius, who was not the son of a king, but again that's more seen as a commentary on Herodotus and his sources, with Xenophon's correctness in this case getting a brief a mention as evidence that alternative traditions circulated). And more broadly, I'd argue that a discussion of the nitty-gritty details of Xenophon's historical sources for the Cyropaedia belongs in that article, rather than this one about Xenophon more broadly (and certainly not where it's currently placed, which is smack-dab in the middle of a section on how his various works reveal his overall political philosophy of governance). A simple statement that the Cyropaedia was not meant to be a factual narrative of Cyrus's life, but one that describes Xenophon's ideal ruler is really all that we need here (especially as that statement probably doesn't apply to the rest of Xenophon's more historically-focused work, again it's mostly specific to the Cyropaedia specifically as far as I can tell). Just a Rube ( talk) 12:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
This article presents scholarly argument as simple fact (e.g. that Xenophon was "pro-oligarchic," which is disputed; that the Education of Cyrus was written "to outline his political and moral philosophy. He did this by endowing a fictional version of the boyhood of Cyrus the Great, founder of the first Persian Empire, with the qualities of what Xenophon considered the ideal ruler"-- this is pure interpretive argument, and not anywhere set out in the text, etc., and certaintly does not reflect the rich range of arguments about what Xenophon is doing in the Cyropaedia. An encyclopedic article on Xenophon should present a balanced, comprehensive view of various scholarly interpretations and argument of his work, etc., along the NPOV guidelines, and not simply take the arguments of one scholar, or possibly one editor, as the fact of the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claroche ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Paul August regarding your revert of the "co-author", Encyclopedia Britannica lists Xenophon as an editor of Thucydides's work referencing Diogenes Laertius (ii. 6, 13). Doesn't it make Xenophon a co-author? Artem Veremey ( talk) 05:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Xenophon's influence on Thucydides's workand are any of them modern scholars?
Thucydides wrote his History of the Peloponnesian War in almost impossibly difficult Greekand her expansion on that.).
In a nutshell: Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.Please, cite a modern, secondary reliable source that says Xenophon was a co-author with Thucydides. NebY ( talk) 18:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy itself is "biased" towards using selective modern sources so that is not a good argument here. Maybe it is worth mentioning that the dubious suggestions of classical authors are sometimes worth mentioning for their notability ( WP:NOTE), and not because modern academics agree with them.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
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The introduction to The Expedition of Cyrus (Oxford World's Classics, 2005, page xiv), quotes Xenophon saying he had come as philos to Cyrus not as general, company commander or a soldier - ranks whose pay he had described shortly before. That is not in a relationship of "service for cash". In this context is it correct to describe Xenophon as a mercenary?
All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough, 21:57, 28 February 2017 (UTC).
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Polity of the Lacedaemonians which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 07:01, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I removed a large section on the relationship between Medes and Persians in the Cyropedia. The section was originally added (in essentially the same form as now) in this edit by a user who was explicitly arguing for the reliability of the Cyropaedia as historical beyond what most scholars would advocate; they simultaneously added a similar, much longer section to the Cyropaedia article, which was soon removed at that article with an edit note describing it as "almost entirely ORIGINAL RESEARCH." It's also mentioned on the talk page of that article, with a note that the sources (which are the same as cited in the section here) do not support what is actually said, (Olmstead is specifically singled out there, and is one of the sources used in the exact same way in this article).
It's worth noting that the current version of that section (in addition to being largely original research/synthesis) explicitly refers readers to the now deleted section of the Cyropaedia article (that's actually how I came across the above history, by going to that article from here and seeing it didn't have that section anymore and seeing on its talk page what happened to it). Even if the material could be reworked in some form (and I'd want it based on sources that specifically talk about Xenophon's portrayal of the Medes and the Persians' relationship, not just sources that talk about the Medes in general), that explicit "see there" sentence should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Just a Rube ( talk • contribs) 11:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC) Just a Rube ( talk) 11:46, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Xenophon wrote the Cyropaedia to outline his political and moral philosophy. He did this by endowing a fictional version of the boyhood of Cyrus the Great, founder of the first Persian Empire, with the qualities of what Xenophon considered the ideal ruler. Historians have asked whether Xenophon's portrait of Cyrus was accurate or if Xenophon imbued Cyrus with events from Xenophon's own life. The consensus is that Cyrus’s career is best outlined in the Histories of Herodotus. But Steven Hirsch writes, "Yet there are occasions when it can be confirmed from Oriental evidence that Xenophon is correct where Herodotus is wrong or lacks information. A case in point involves the ancestry of Cyrus."[19]
Herodotus contradicts Xenophon at several other points, most notably in the matter of Cyrus’s relationship with the Median Kingdom. Herodotus says that Cyrus led a rebellion against his maternal grandfather, Astyages king of Media, and defeated him, thereafter (improbably) keeping Astyages in his court for the remainder of his life (Histories 1.130). The Medes were thus "reduced to subjection" (1.130) and became "slaves" (1.129) to the Persians 20 years before the capture of Babylon in 539 BC. The Cyropaedia relates instead that Astyages died and was succeeded by his son Cyaxares II, the maternal uncle of Cyrus (1.5.2). In the initial campaign against the Lydians, Babylonians and their allies, the Medians were led by Cyaxares and the Persians by Cyrus, who was crown prince of the Persians, since his father was still alive (4.5.17). Xenophon relates that at this time the Medes were the strongest of the kingdoms that opposed the Babylonians (1.5.2).
There is an echo of this statement, verifying Xenophon and contradicting Herodotus, in the Harran Stele, a document from the court of Nabonidus.[20] In the entry for year 14 or 15 of his reign (542-540 BC), Nabonidus speaks of his enemies as the kings of Egypt, the Medes, and the Arabs. There is no mention of the Persians, although according to Herodotus and the current consensus the Medians had been made "slaves" of the Persians several years previously. It does not seem that Nabonidus would be completely misled about who his enemies were, or who was really in control over the Medes and Persians just one to three years before his kingdom fell to their armies.
Other archaeological evidence supporting Xenophon’s picture of a confederation of Medes and Persians, rather than a subjugation of the Medes by the Persians, comes from the bas-reliefs in the stairway at Persepolis. These show no distinction in official rank or status between the Persian and Median nobility. Although Olmstead followed the consensus view that Cyrus subjugated the Medes, he nevertheless wrote, "Medes were honored equally with Persians; they were employed in high office and were chosen to lead Persian armies."[21] A more extensive list of considerations related to the credibility of the Cyropaedia’s picture of the relationship between the Medes and Persians is found on the Cyropaedia page.
Both Herodotus (1.123,214) and Xenophon (1.5.1,2,4, 8.5.20) present Cyrus as about 40 years old when his forces captured Babylon. In the Nabonidus Chronicle, there is mention of the death of the wife of the king (name not given) within a month after the capture of Babylon.[22] It has been conjectured that this was Cyrus’s first wife, which lends credibility to the Cyropaedia’s statement (8.5.19) that Cyaxares II gave his daughter in marriage to Cyrus soon (but not immediately) after the fall of the city, with the kingdom of Media as her dowry. When Cyaxares died about two years later the Median kingdom passed peaceably to Cyrus, so that this would be the true beginning of the Medo-Persian Empire under just one monarch.
So you really think deleting the whole thing is appropriate? Maybe I should ask a different question: is there any published and serious discussion about Xenophon possibility getting some things more right than Herodotus?-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 23:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Looping back down before we indent off the side of the screen. As I said yesterday, I wouldn't object too much to leaving the couple of sentences that more to less say that; I'm mostly concerned to hang it all on Hirsch without having seen his original article to verify it, as that section actively misuses every other source it cites. But more broadly, the sources I've seen basically treat it as Xenophon writing the Cyropaedia (as opposed to his other works) as an intentional work of fiction designed to illustrate his view of an ideal ruler/philosophy/etc. (there is enough disagreement in the literature on the exact specifics of what he is trying to do that I feel uncomfortable trying to summarize). There is agreement, however, that he regularly invents characters and incidents that don't exist and never happened; when he does use names and events that did exist, he alters them such that they have little relationship either to how they are attested in his known sources or other sources that we have. While he occasionally gets things right that Herodotus gets wrong (for instance, Herodotus doesn't represent Cyrus as the son of a king, while Xenophon has his father already being a king of a minor Persian state, which we know from inscriptions to actually be the case), any facts are generally seen as incidental to his purposes and subordinate to his narrative needs (and I can throw in citations to explicitly say that). As well (just my observations from articles that I have read, not something I feel confident stating) in general, when Herodotus gets something wrong that the Cyropaedia gets right, the focus of most historical analysis I've seen tends to be "why did Herodotus (or his sources) get this wrong" (for instance, there's discussion of the deemphasis of Cyrus's paternal ancestry in Herodotus possibly representing the influence of later propaganda by Darius, who was not the son of a king, but again that's more seen as a commentary on Herodotus and his sources, with Xenophon's correctness in this case getting a brief a mention as evidence that alternative traditions circulated). And more broadly, I'd argue that a discussion of the nitty-gritty details of Xenophon's historical sources for the Cyropaedia belongs in that article, rather than this one about Xenophon more broadly (and certainly not where it's currently placed, which is smack-dab in the middle of a section on how his various works reveal his overall political philosophy of governance). A simple statement that the Cyropaedia was not meant to be a factual narrative of Cyrus's life, but one that describes Xenophon's ideal ruler is really all that we need here (especially as that statement probably doesn't apply to the rest of Xenophon's more historically-focused work, again it's mostly specific to the Cyropaedia specifically as far as I can tell). Just a Rube ( talk) 12:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
This article presents scholarly argument as simple fact (e.g. that Xenophon was "pro-oligarchic," which is disputed; that the Education of Cyrus was written "to outline his political and moral philosophy. He did this by endowing a fictional version of the boyhood of Cyrus the Great, founder of the first Persian Empire, with the qualities of what Xenophon considered the ideal ruler"-- this is pure interpretive argument, and not anywhere set out in the text, etc., and certaintly does not reflect the rich range of arguments about what Xenophon is doing in the Cyropaedia. An encyclopedic article on Xenophon should present a balanced, comprehensive view of various scholarly interpretations and argument of his work, etc., along the NPOV guidelines, and not simply take the arguments of one scholar, or possibly one editor, as the fact of the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claroche ( talk • contribs) 23:54, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Paul August regarding your revert of the "co-author", Encyclopedia Britannica lists Xenophon as an editor of Thucydides's work referencing Diogenes Laertius (ii. 6, 13). Doesn't it make Xenophon a co-author? Artem Veremey ( talk) 05:29, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Xenophon's influence on Thucydides's workand are any of them modern scholars?
Thucydides wrote his History of the Peloponnesian War in almost impossibly difficult Greekand her expansion on that.).
In a nutshell: Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves.Please, cite a modern, secondary reliable source that says Xenophon was a co-author with Thucydides. NebY ( talk) 18:37, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy itself is "biased" towards using selective modern sources so that is not a good argument here. Maybe it is worth mentioning that the dubious suggestions of classical authors are sometimes worth mentioning for their notability ( WP:NOTE), and not because modern academics agree with them.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)