The essence of all the arguments against the Frua being placed there, critically, is due to the fact that some people personally do not want to see it there. I do not perceive the frau dissidents as wanting to prevent others from seeing the picture. We can satisfy both camps here. We can give people fair warning that there is a picture of a naked frua here; or we can simply dress up frau in clothes and declothe her when people click on her picture, if they want to see her naked. This is not censorship, because the naked frau is on wikipedia and is easily accessible to those who want to see it (by simply clicking on the frua and instantly declothing her) yet we can cater to those people who do not want the frau there, because she is naked etc. with a simple 'declothing option'
THis is just one solution i made up off the top of my head. In essence, the solution should give an option or warn people about the naked frau, and give them choice as to whether or not they want her naked. This would satisfy both camps, and would at the same time not censor wikipedia, because the naked frua would still be very accessible.
I'm adding this section to help people keep track of the edit wars about the picture. I'm trying to address the "posession is 9 points of the law" issue - that is, it is very hard for the average editor to track the history of the which image is the lead on the page itself, and so whatever they see there when they load it seems appears to be the presumptive consensus. This keeps newcomers from understanding the real situation, and thus dooms the page to an eternal slow-grinding edit war between the partisans who, though we have good faith, are not getting anywhere (without prejudice, I'd include Nunh-huh, Haham hanuka, Kasreyn, and myself Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC) as the ones I've noticed, I'm sure there are others)
If this does not work, I will consider creating a template that simply contains whatever image is being used this week. I'd put a comment explaining how to edit the template in the wikitext of the page, and if someone removed the template I would say the right response would be to remove the image from the template and replace the template and . This would serve to create a separate edit history just for the image issue, on a page also subject to above-average vandalism and actual progress. -- Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
So here's the good-faith history over the last 250 edits as I see it. If you change the image please note it here. Homunq claims that the following sentence should read "Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion." but be bold and edit it if you think you have a better standard.
Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion. Changes which are accompanied by a comment elsewhere should be noted here by their originator or the next person who comes along. This is not the place for argument (there's plenty of room just below), it's just a history so people can see how it got where it is.
Current status: Montage
Status as of sep 2006, 250 edits ago as I write: frau
There's no actual real photograph on this page that shows a woman. We have a drawing of one, but that's kind of, uh, pointless. We need to do what the SETI people did and put these silly human body shame issues to rest and find the most representative photograph we can find, and use it. -- Cyde Weys 06:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Ha! What exactly is the most representative? There is so much variation that any "representative" photograph is likely to be biased or, even worse, more representative of a particular race or ethnic group.
Just a note on the "Apollo" image ( Image:Human-woman.png): it is not from the Apollo missions, but from the Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 space probes to Jupiter and Saturn, the first two man-made objects to leave the Solar System. The woman and man were drawn to be as pan-racial as possible and according to the conventions of classic Greek sculpture. Also, since the probes were publicly funded. they could not fly in the face of American mores of the time (the early 1970s). -- Stefano KALB 01:51, 16 Jul 2006 (UTC)
The German, the Spanish and the Dutch Wiki's have this pic as a main one. Also in the article man we have a nude photo. We can found a better nude photo, but It seems the best right now -- Haham hanuka 17:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we should put her at the top, but not the current image (Frau-2.jpg), a different photo:
An encyclopædia should also be able to give the browser their first ever introduction to something new. These are my opinions based on this.
I reckon a lot of people want to put a fat, ugly mature woman as the main picture because they're scared of being accused of stereotyping/putting pressure on women/trying to please men's sexual desires/idealistic. Why not put a really beautiful woman as the main picture? This encyclopædia's entry for 'flower' has several really beautiful, striking flowers at the top, and the entry for Peacock/Peafowl is of the male of the species showing off its amazing tail-feathers, not of the dull brown female.
In my opinion:
- The picture at the top should be a naked woman, the most clear way to depict the difference between the male and female of our species. The genitals should ideally be more visible (this does help if the area is shaved, even though this is a habitual modification) but not a close-up or pose that could be classified obscene, though this is a very subjective matter I know.
I don't think we should use a nude woman. There are some people that I see using Wikipedia that are younger than the appropriate viewing age for that picture. I agree with a woman in a bikini, but not this.
A clothed person might be used under the 'human being' entry but serves little purpose here, especially in this day and age when clothed men and women sometimes look very similar, and considering cultural differences in clothing.
- Should be a photograph, not a drawing or diagram as just like every other entry in the encyclopædia of anything with visible mass this is the most accurate and easiest to understand.
- Should be a young woman, at the peak of fertility (eg. aged 18-30). Older woman have beauty in their own right, but most people in the world, regardless of culture, find her most attractive at a young age, thus the most famous artists have depicted her since the beginning.
+ Should be a fit and healthy woman, NOT like the one in the current photograph (Frau-2.jpg).
-A fit and healthy woman will naturally have a greater muscle:fat ratio, therefore a slimmer waist than Frau-2.jpg, but still with curvacious hips (healthy females deposit fat on their hips more than on their bellies).
Obviously you've never seen many naked women. Fat deposits are highly induvidual and it would depend the person. A woman has fat on her stomach and hips.
-A fit and healthy woman is NOT anorexic or overly skinny, but has a healthy fleshy covering.
-I realise the average western woman (and man!) is not so healthy, but here we should be giving an example of women world-wide, and it would be a shame to present an unhealthy image as if it were natural.
How is the woman in the picture not fit and healthy? There are many different versions of a healthy body and hers looks perfectly fine. Just because she may not fit your standards of beauty does not mean she's unhealthy. Softshoe 00:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- No make-up, tattoes or other modifications - these vary greatly depending on culture.
Would be nice to photograph a mixed-race woman to cover the race issue. - OXFORD, UK
WHy do you "OXFORD, UK" ( if the above comment is all from one person) feel we need to have an attractive woman??? No such image is on the man page for example. Are you really saying frau is fat? and ugly? she is neither. I find her heathy looking. with a healthy fleshy covering (unliike bikini girl). HAving said that, i dont really like frau, the drawing simplifies the whole situation to me. Or move frau down the page a little.
What about nat krate's vitruvian woman.?
I dont understand your little - and + . are these points you are against and for?
Cilstr
05:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Answers for OXFORD, UK in order:
Now, I think Erleuthung is much better than Frau, because it is much farther from promoting somebody's standard of nice cosy femininity or absolute, perfect womanhood. But, while I would hardly engage in an edit war about it, I don't think that even having a nude picture in the top is necessary. In talk:Man, User:Angr's main argument for having a nude picture is that "The top picture needs to be nude because this is first and foremost a biology article, and the entire male body needs to be shown.". In fact, that doesn't hold true of the article Man and even less of this article, because both are not only about the biological, but also about the social and cultural (even linguistic) aspects of the concept - actually, these latter ones occupy more space than the first one. Putting only the nude picture on top seems to imply that the biological aspect is the most important one, as it is in animals. This is, at best, a POV. In fact, it's clear that society and culture are at least as important as biology in determining the "being" of men and women.
Another thing is that this topic is just too sensitive. Whether we like it or not, each illustration in the heading of such an article will tend to imply that this or that is what the typical, absolute woman, the essence of femininity looks like. So one good solution would be a collage, and another one would be an image like "women of Egypt" (see also the Arabic and the Danish versions, silly as they are), which overtly and with a measure of irony refuses to even attempt to portray "the essence of femininity". -- 85.187.44.131 22:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the image of a nude woman to the top of the article, and added a pointer in the caption to the similar image at man, and vice versa. Logically, either both should stay, or both should go. Can you tell me why you consider an image of a nude woman unacceptable, whilst a nude man is OK? -- The Anome 23:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The meditating woman drawing is not relevant to this article. There is absoultely nothing wrong with a picture of a nude woman. If there are editors that are see this image as prurient, please note that it is not, as it is a photo taken obviosuly without that intention. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Stored version Line 99: Line 99:
I am not involved in this content dispute. I just reverted what I considered to be vandalism, e.g. the removal of an image that was placed a while back, as I have this article on my watch list to combat vandalism. I added a gallery of images from commons a few weeks ago, that may be suitable to illustrate this article. I will let these that are into editing this article find a suitable image to replace the previous image, providig this is done not based on puritanism or other POV. Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
(Please note FYI that
Media:Erleuchtung.jpg is copyrighted and will get IFD'd. Original photo at
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/6298560/
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
01:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC))
I am amused that there is this outcry against a nude woman image at the top of the page, and then there are pictures of nude women throughout the article. I think that the outcry comes from a strange combination of 21st century feminist weirdness and 19th century Victorian prudishness. If these images offend all of you so much, why don't you spin them off on to their own article with a title like "Naked Chicks Through the Ages".-- Drvanthorp 21:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Drop the Nazi invocation when bringing up the 'Frau.' Re 'Frau' as a word, just click on the left for 'Deutsch' (that's German): you'll see that Frau is 'woman' in German. As to the model's weight, I doubt that she'd consent to being photographed if people would exaggerate her weight (which is perfectly fine). Accusations of being overweight are part of American attitudes that fuel bulimia, anorexia and other eating disorders. Dogru144 16:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we move the nude picture down on the article, so its not immediately available? Then we could paste a warning at the top of the page for those who don't want to see a woman naked. Single guy 00:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
To Nunh-huh: I'm having trouble contextualizing your statement "Wikipedia might find something more important to say about "woman" than "a man with tits"." Is this what a woman is to you? A man with tits? Please explain, because I find it difficult to agree that someone with this viewpoint should be editing the Woman article at all. rom a rin talk ] 16:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a copy of my discussion with user:Gwernol, which should also serve as an explanation as to why I'm re-inserting my edit. -- 85.187.44.131 11:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
May I ask why you reverted my edit on Woman without any comment? Did you regard it as vandalism or what? --85.187.44.131 14:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not think that is necessary to add depilated. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I obviously have the majority against me, but I must say I'm not convinced at all.
227 (can we call you 227?), I completely understand your uncomfort with this photo. It is extremely hard to find a good representation of what "woman" looks like, probably even impossible, as there are so many different women with different physical characteristics, whether due to genetics or culture. Personally, I would rather support a photo of a woman who was not depilated, as I see removal of pubic hair as a potentially sexist custom (woman trying to look like young girl for man's pleasure, etc.). I'm sure that there are plenty of other reasons why some women choose to do this, but I'm just pointing this out to show you that my reasoning is not that I think a depilated woman is the best representation. I do think, however, as I mentioned before, that we have to draw the line somewhere, and we can't list everything in the photo caption that makes this woman a product of her society and/or her own individuality. Maybe someone will come up with another photo that we all can agree is better here, but until then, I support this photo, and I don't think it is necessary to mention her depilation. I think that jossi is right too; people will know, if they notice at all. And for now, if readers really want to see pubic hair, they can visit Pubic hair. rom a rin talk ] 02:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me why someone put a nude woman picture on this article. We will not accept this on wikipedia.-- 67.34.212.66 13:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I returned here a few weeks later specifically to delete that picture. Thankfully, someone beat me to it? What is wrong with that picture? ------------> I don't feel comfortable showing it to my mother. I don't feel comfortable reading that article at school, when a teacher could easily suspend me for it. That is the test as to whether something is acceptible or not. Readers, don't you agree?
I have no problem with a nude woman at the top of the article. The article is about woman obviously we need a picture of a woman, obviously that woman should be nude. However i do see that it is difficult to represent "woman" by displaying a photo of just one woman. Ideally I would like to see a collection of women - all nude - of different ages, races and weights, standing or sitting in a naturally posed group. That would be my ideal photo, however until a photo like that becomes available I'm happy to settle for the one we have at the top of the article. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see how this is "porn" in any way. It's like saying the statue of the Spirit of Justicewith an exposed breast is porn. -- mboverload @ 22:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Nunh-huh, 70.115, just lay off. It's clear you're not going to agree. Quit wasting so much talk page space on something so futile.
Oh, and 70.115, don't think I didn't see your attempts to make it look like Nunh-huh called you a "Douchebag" [4] and a troll [5]. You inserted that. If you try to put words in someone else's mouth again, you will be reported to an administrator. Have a wonderful day, Kasreyn 09:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.
Question: Should the main image at the top of the article be a nude photo?
Discussion resulting from the survey would go here. If there were a significant amount, it might be moved to a talk page instead.
Support. The article is about a woman as a whole, not just about her normally visible parts. Same goes for the man article.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 19:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Re: the comments of MrDolomite and Lawilkin. I agree that a nude photo is controversial. Unfortunately I think the proposed solution (picture of a clothed woman) would be at least as controversial and likely more so. Clothes are so culturally specific that you will just have endless debate about what is a good photo to use. Trying to create more "decency" (not really sure what that means as its a totally subjective term) closes down one source of debate but opens up another huge one, so doesn't seem to address your concerns. Best, Gwernol 18:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
CaptainManacles 23:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Right... More to the point, the photograph represents the only state the is verifiably universal to ALL women. You're wrong, in the minorty, and frankly, making a fool of yourself with your poorly thought out attempts at argument. Every time someone refutes you (for example, like I have) your argument changes. I imagine it will change again, in a vain attempt to refute the fact that women all share the depicted state.
The is absolutely no way to represent all women (all three billion of them) with any one photograph. But for the purposes of exemplifying a woman, the Frau is ideal. This woman is pretty average is most every respect, and having no clothes removes almost all cultural connotations. We could split hairs and go on about her make up, depilation, etc…, but again, nothing is going to be perfect, but for purpose of illustrating the topic of the article, it works well. JayMan 18:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The pro- arguments are essentially saying either 1) that nudity is the best illustration of the most universal part of the definition of the term or 2) that anything else would be culturally biased. The anti- arguments say A) that nudity is offensive B) that nudity privileges a reductionist viewpoint of women (direct counterargument to 1) and C) that you can't escape some cultural specificity so you shouldn't try. Personally I'd say that the 2/C debate is irresolvable and thus to be avoided. A) seems directly counter to WP:NOT. So we're down to 1 vs. B. Obviously there are partisans on both sides, but really I can't see how proponents of 1 ("we have the best option out of several") should be as offended by losing the argument as proponents of B ("your option, considered as part of a larger pattern, does concrete harm"). I personally am more sympathetic to B than to 1, but even if I weren't I think I'd accept that a "further down" compromise worth it to reduce conflict. -- Homunq 21:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The ongoing reversion is absolutely ridiculous. Decide what you will, but stop flipping between versions until a consensus decision is made. Dysprosia 08:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The current pic of the nude woman is totally unacceptable in such an article....it must be either deleted or replaced. Kshatriya knight 21:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Whether the picture is appropriate or not is not the issue. You achieve consensus before acting, not the other way around. Dysprosia 05:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there needs to be consensus on the image. There is none, so I've removed it. Hopefully this will speed agreement on an appropriate image. I'd suggest the Pioneer image that existed here for so long with no dispute, but there are certainly other alternates. - Nunh-huh 14:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Again: "Any image which has not reached consensus here will be removed." This is the only way forward. - Nunh-huh 15:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While I am happy with the current image, I'm aware that the ~70% consensus it received in the poll above is not great by Wikipedia standards (see WP:NOT). I've been trying to think of workable compromises, like maybe some sort of time share arrangement between clothed/unclothed images (which seems to me to be the crux of the disagreement). I then remembered that hearing that the main image on flower cycles through various flower images (see right); I suppose choosing one image of a flower to lead that page was a similar challenge to choosing a woman of one age/ethnicity/culture to head ours!
So, I thought we might perhaps do something similar here. The technology is pretty straight-forward: just an animated gif slide show of a bunch of images. All we'd need do you is decide which images to use, crop them to the same proportions, and run them through an animated gif maker. This would allow us to display both clothed and unclothed women from as many different backgrounds as we can find, all effectively at the same time.
The questions we need to answer first, though, are:
-- jwanders Talk 21:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
You mischaracterize the objections. Some object to any nude; others object to its position; and still more object to this specific picture being displayed at that position. And there is no consensus for the Frau picture. - Nunh-huh 21:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm new to this discussion, but Nunh-huh I find the off-handedness of your remarks above imply that you've given up any chance of reaching a compromise here—I hope I'm misinterpreting. This is not the place to rehash the history of this debate, that only fills up the talk page and makes it more difficult for other uses to follow the current discussion. Instead, I'd appreciate it if you would respond specifically concerning the proposal I made above, i.e. whether you agree with an animated slide show in general and whether you would accept the inclusion of unclothed women in such a slide show. -- jwanders Talk 10:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I find this discussion quite facinating. This article, will be read by humans that know what a woman is and look like. Those people that either because of age or culture have never been exposed to a naked human body, will have the benefit from seeing a female body. That is consistent with the aims of this encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I was a little startled to see a nude woman as the lead photograph. It is certainly not a "work-safe" article. I would support moving it down the page a little to protect the sensibilities of readers who come across the article unexpectedly (such as by clicking a wikilink). Either that or make it a little smaller.
However we then get into the "what are you ashamed about" question, and I can see a lot of merit in that. If we have a nude photograph, then why be partially ashamed of it?
Personally, I like Frau. She's not overtly sexual, she seems proud of herself, she's reasonably representative, and I find the small touches such as nail polish to be entirely consistent with my view of a woman, as women tend to be more likely to decorate their bodies than men.
However, the article needs a lead picture, and given the impossibility of finding a clad image that is absolutely free of cultural specifics, then we should have a nude for that reason and to illustrate (or at least hint at) the biological differences.
But though we can eliminate clothing, we can't remove other factors such as ethnicity, and in this instance, Frau is in a minority position, being white and Western. Of course, you could make the same argument for any woman.
We are also limited in the sort of photographs we can use, as they must have an appropriate license.
I wonder if we can get a group of appropriately diverse female editors to pose at Wikimania 2006? -- Jumbo 03:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
How about we do what we did for World War II - a montage of photos of women, different races, young, old, pregnant, differing degrees of clothed. DJ Clayworth 19:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Per Clayworth's suggestion above, I threw this image together. I like the compromise of being able to have both clothed and unclothed women and have women from a variety of backgrounds. Thoughts? -- jwanders Talk 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I should be able to; my image manipulation skills are spotty at best ;-) What colour do you think would work best? -- jwanders Talk 23:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I've linked to them all from the image's page -- jwanders Talk 00:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Better? It's very poorly put together if you look at it closely; If we decide to use one of these, I suggest we find someone with actual image skills to put it together ;-) But these should suffice for the present discussion, methinks. -- jwanders Talk 10:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I like to have something of this sort replace the current main image on the page; can I get some idea if people would support or oppose that? (This isn't a formal poll, just a quick test to see where the consensus is and how best to proceed.) -- jwanders Talk 07:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I really like the Frau with brown background. And in case someone else doesn't say it, thanks for the hard work, I think you did a very good job. 70.115.211.122 11:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)Nunya
Seems pretty redundant to me....
_________________________________________________ Also that the upper and lower images are so similar in that they depict, with a similar position and background, a woman of childbearing age in her undraped muliebrity.
To eliminate the issue of racial appearance altogether, I suggest a monochrome, outlined illustration of a woman, devoid of "features" that may bear any indication to race, as that seems to be such a touchy issue. Stovetopcookies 00:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Why should it matter what race, ethnicity, etc.? It's an example picture of a woman, so that in case someone does not know what a woman looks like, they will recognize one next time they see one. It's like showing a picture of a car. Does it matter if it is a Ford, Chevy, etc? A car is going to be more or less the same. It's a demo picture of a pregnant(?) woman, nothing more. I don't see why this has to be made into such an issue because she is caucasian. I cannot help but wonder, would we be receiving this much talk over it if the original photo had been of a woman of another race? Stovetopcookies 02:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Must the picture be of a "contemporary" white European woman who is depilated? The picture ive proposed is of Indira Varma that exhibits the body of a woman in its natural state (undepilated)....note the picture was uploaded by someone else. Freakkk
OK...so lets discuss this image... pro you cant tell what specific race...she is not black nor white she is "undepilated"...her hair is not neatly in place...this is the "natural" woman...the biological woman
con she is wearing some jewelery like a waist band so may turn it into a beauty subject feet not shown not as "clinical" as Frau since frau was neatly placed on a white background
still we should be open to suggestion Freakkk 07:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, I have removed the picture of the naked woman. I am in agreement that whether the picture stays or goes depends on common consensus. But because of its controversial nature, the picture should be removed UNTIL we have consensus enough; until we are absolutely sure on our positions. Till then, after extensive polling and after coming to a consensus on the picture it should remain down. Right now, because it is so controversial, it should remain off till we have a meaningful consensus happening.
The onus lies with it off the web, till enough evidence is there to prove it should go back on. The GrandMaster has spoken. TheGrandMaster 00:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Look at the poll numbers. Do we not have consensus enough?? TheGrandMaster 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Because of the many issues raised (particulary viewing this page from classrooms) and the whole Adult Conspiracy thing, using Image:Human-woman.png seems to be the Right Way to go, especially if it includes a link to the Pioneer plaque in its caption to show where it came from. (It's obvious from the discussion—search this page for "Pioneer"—that most people are unaware of it's origin, or the correct link reference to use ... even the page for the image fails to identify it!) To make them match, the article for Man could use the companion image, Image:Human-man.png. Just my 2¢ worth. -- Dennette 01:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It might be worth semi-protecting the page for a while. An Anon user continually removes the first image of the nude woman. On Omicronpersei8's talk page the user gave the reason that the picture was offensive to Muslims. As this user has no account, it could be a good idea to semi-protect the page. - Neural 23:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
...the image should be removed temporarily. Stovetopcookies 23:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Reading this page, the only possible conclusion is that there is no consensus, and not much possibility of consensus on either extreme (Frau or no-nudity). The clearest compromises available are the montages (temporal or spatial) including both clothed and naked women. I personally prefer the spatial montage for portability to other media. I know that I'm going to be reverted, but I'm going to take a stand here by putting it in there. Please, whoever reverts me, give your argument for keeping an image that, while it does have a simple majority support, is contentiously non-consensus.-- Homunq 00:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
does she have to be naked? cant it just be like a photo of some non-naked woman? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.116.93.68 ( talk • contribs) .
I have no intention to read the long pages of discussions that took place in June to August. I have had a skim through it all and it tends to be just Wiki-politics over the line betwene censorship/pornography or whatever. I want to point out a practical side which made me immediately remove the image earlier without attempting to discuss it. I was on a public computer at my university which has a strict policy of banning students from computer labs for viewing images containing nudity. And as I clicked on the page
woman from some other article, this came up spanning a full screen height! Has it been considered that a reader who might be in presence of other people might not want to be seen as viewing a full screen image of a naked woman? This is why I moved it down the page when I did - I think the image should stay, but why does it have to be at the top and why does it have to be so large?--
Konst.
able
22:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Is she pregnant? Perhaps that could be mentioned along with the whole depilation thing?
Stovetopcookies
07:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the montage as it is super ugly, IMO. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't a more appropriate caption be "Common ethnic stereotypes of women" ? -- 70.71.155.24 05:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the collage of pictures in the main picture contains a picture of a nude caucasian woman only while the women from the other cultures are clothed in their respective "traditional" way? I find it rather offensive to traditional minded white people as it seems to suggest that "clothes free" is a culture amongst caucasians and are more "liberal" and more open about sexuality than other cultures. Having a nude picture is a problem, since there are difficulties with race and culture, and style (body hair/shaven, long hair/short hair, etc.), that is why I support the asexual Pioneer image to demonstrate the "nude" form of a woman, and to have other pictures which show different races of women in their traditional clothing. Freakkk 00:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The painting of the woman, on my screen, dwarfs the adjacent content. Though it is beautifully painted, I think its size should be reduced so as to not draw attention away from the article content. An encyclopedia is foremost a text; so pictures should only have a secondary role. Rintrah 12:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is becoming a work of self-indulgence by female gender rights activism. It is already 3 times the length of the Man article and is full of connotation and innuendo which stretches credibility of the article and its neutrality. Case in point: "It is commonly accepted that the reason both men and women have breasts is that the rudimentary form of animals was female for millions of years." This is neither cited, nor is it commonly accepted (noting that since animals are thought to have decended from flagellate protozoa, which is akin to sperm, this is quite a claim). It is a broad claim on gender origins on the entire Kingdom of Animalia, lacking scientific pretext. Furthermore, the quality of both articles is very poor, with statements such as "the breast is an enlarged sweat gland" working to degrade the quality of the woman article. The majority of the article is unneccesary and focuses on arguments of sexism, which, while an important side note for the article - is not the main focus of the article itself.
Furthermore, I would like to point out to whomever added these ridiculous, unscientific and biased claims: you are suggesting that males evolved from females as a standard. This implies that males are more evolved, is that your true belief? Perhaps that illustrates the need to remain objective and scientific here, despite all your beliefs and urges to the contrary. You do yourselves a disservice by detracting from the credibility and value of this article. C00kiemnstr 17:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you try to improve the article? Complaining about it won't make it any better and I'm interested to see what you could contribute. CerealBabyMilk 20:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Already have (01:50, 1 November 2006 70.171.231.12), removing speculative information without citation, adding or improving information on some topics, rewording sentances to a more neutral stance and etc. The edit was quickly reverted to a previous version in it's entirety, and I'm not interested in wasting my time on an edit/revert war with hopeless malcontents. Since the disscussion page directly bears on the content and future actions taken upon the article, me writing my concerns here should help to improve the article, at least indirectly. Thanks for complaining about my complaints though. C00kiemnstr 04:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, much of this article is terible. I have replaced "and today, using the word, girl, to refer to grown women in most social settings and the workplace (as in office girl) typically is considered inappropriate and denigrating in the United States and United Kingdom because it implies a view of women as infantile, having a parallel in the use of the term "boy" for black men to deny their adult status in racist communities. It is sometimes stated that the use remains commonplace in several other English-speaking countries, without such implications, but research regarding that is lacking. ". This shows an incredible application of double standards, re need for research or citations (not to mention an at best spurious parallel). There is still much work to be done. Certainly in Britain, girl is often gerenally for all women, and is not vesital. Similarly, using the term boy to refer to a fully grown man is common and not necessarily offencive. Thehalfone 09:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's good. What about the "certain cultures woman is a family insult meaning nonvirgin" bit? I took out "non-western" but still feel that this section should either give an example of such a culture or go. I'd prefer the latter, it's not notable in this context IMO, but I'll leave it in to give others a chance to fix it or cut it.-- Homunq 16:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep changing it to 'oestrogen'? Is there some reasoning behind this that I'm not aware of? -- Blarrrg 18:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Why does this picture was deleted? -- Haham hanuka 14:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Every English dictionary agrees that a woman is an adult female human. However, the Category:Women article, which I propose a rename for, is about simply female humans. Anything regarding the word's actual definition?? Georgia guy 14:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is
Image:Formentera i Eivissa 019 cropped.jpg
(the naked women on the beach)
on a this page????
It looks more to me like pornography than something to describe women.
Also did the women on the top page know she was going to be put on Wikipedia?
{I'm Not Accussing anyone of putting on the internet without consent.}
(Remember Jesus Loves You!!!)
...I'm disappointed.
From the nude lady all the way down through the whole article.
I expected it to have more of a professional layout such as the article on men.
They had a little bit of everything about the guy--age, maturity, development, psychological development, and the like.
I didn't see a huge showcase of all the famous things that guys started. Neither did I see little parts about famous men who helped out with women's suffrage.
All I see is...
1. A nude lady. 2. A tiny description about women and where the word comes from. 3. A tad bit about how emotional they are and certain cases of emotional disturbance that they go through. 4. A HUGE SHOWCASE on "women's rights" and "prejudices against women."
To me, it sounds like the article is overemphasizing on "little things" instead of examing what all she goes through (from childhood upwards).
I for one, say that someone needs to clean the article up.
What say you?
Compare:
Article on Men vs Article on Women
--JJ
It is impossible to describe what a woman goes through childhood upwards. Women of different cultures, ethnicities, sexualities, and incomes have vastly different experiences. the only the thing every woman inherently shares is a similar body. One can describe the experience of woman throughout history as a group, but individually woman differ so much it is impossible to describe their lves
--csw
Perhaps most of this should be in an article on parthenogenesis, but here is my attempt to provide the sources requested for some discussion to exist in this article on women.
Google results: 80,000 for parthenogenesis in humans.
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Google definitions include:
• human conception without fertilization by a man • process in which an unfertilized egg develops into a new individual; common among insects and some other arthropods wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
(par•the•no•gen•e•sis) (pahr²th[schwa]-no-jen¢[schwa]-sis) [Gr. parthenos virgin + -genesis] a modified form of sexual reproduction by the development of a gamete without fertilization, as occurs in some plants and invertebrates, especially arthropods, eg, honey bees and wasps, and in certain lizards. It may occur as a natural phenomenon or be induced by chemical, thermal, or mechanical stimulation (artificial p.). www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_p_07zPzhtm
Process of reproduction by the development of an unfertilized egg. ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_P.htm
The production of offspring by a female with no genetic contribution from a male. The development of an individual from an unfertilized egg that did not arise by meiotic chromosome reduction . helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/glossary/p.htm
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Advanced Cell Technology (ACT) recently published a study demonstrating that parthenogenesis can be used in non-human primates. [D] Cibelli, Robert P. et al Science Magazine. "Parthenogenic Stem Cells in Non-Human Primates." wysiwyg://10/ http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/295/5556/819. • The eggs at the 36 hour stage of development were soaked in media derived from a pregnant mare and kinase. • 28 of the original 77 eggs reached the stage of metaphase II. • 4 of these 28 eggs reached the blastocyte stage. • The cells extracted from this experiment were found to contain characteristics of embryonic stem cells. • Derivatives of all three germ layers were grown from this same set of cells. [E] Shoukhrat, Mitalipov M. et al Biology of Reproduction. "Parthenogenetic Activation of Rhesus Monkey Oocytes and Reconstructed Embryos". Vol. 65 Pg 253-259, 2001. This experiment leads directly into a realistic possibility of parthenogenesis in humans.
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI0032/partheno/human.htm
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Institute for Reproductive Medicine and Genetic Testing Pioneer in Embryo Genetic Testing and Gender Selection … In Los Angeles, Jerry Hall of the Institute of Reproductive Medicine and Genetic Testing is also working on parthenogenesis. He wouldn't reveal any details but was confident it would work in humans. "Not only are we optimistic that parthenogenesis in humans would lead us to the same results, I would be surprised if they didn't."…
http://www.preimplantationgenetictesting.com/Media5.htm
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J Exp Clin Assist Reprod. 2004; 1: 3. Published online 2004 December 8. doi: 10.1186/1743-1050-1-3. Copyright © 2004 Hipp and Atala; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Tissue engineering, stem cells, cloning, and parthenogenesis: new paradigms for therapy Jason Hipp1 and Anthony Atala 1,2 1Wake Forest Institute for Regenerative Medicine Wake Forest University School of Medicine Winston Salem, North Carolina USA 2Wake Forest University School of Medicine Medical Center Blvd. Winston Salem, North Carolina 27157 USA
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539246
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The Future of Assisted Reproductive Technology The field of assisted reproductive technology has been developed in the past thirty years. The oldest person born from an IVF pregnancy is in her early twenties. The oldest child produced from a frozen embryo is a teenager and the oldest ICSI child is less than 10 years old (Hardy, 2002). Since ART methods have not been around long enough to gauge whether there are any long term, late onset effects, it is not known whether there will be adverse effects on future generations. Even though physiological health may appear equal in babies spawned using ART, the reproductive performance of their offspring cannot yet be determined (Hardy, 2002). Based on history and the possibility of future technologies, it is likely that the new methods of ART will be developed, allowing infertile couples more options, should they choose to seek help producing an offspring that is biologically their own. One recent and hopeful example, for females diagnosed with cancer, is an ovarian transplant as a future possibility for preserving fertility. The experimental steps would include cryopreserving one or both of a woman’s ovaries immediately following cancer diagnosis and transplanting the tissue back into the woman following cancer treatment. Ideally, normal oocyte development will occur. In 1999, ovarian tissue was successfully transplanted into a woman who suffered early menopause. In 2002, a whole ovary transplant was successfully conducted in a woman. Studies in monkeys show that fertility after ovarian transplant is a possibility (Tizzard, 2003). Cryopreservation of ovarian tissue is another possibility for women diagnosed with cancer. Currently, such young women are faced with the decision to undergo cancer treatment immediately, which may render them infertile, or wait until their menstrual cycle provides them with an egg to preserve. It is possible that “the pursuit of human perfection” will be taken to new extremes. People may be able to choose specific traits for their children. The scientific breakthroughs which will change today’s moderate methods of assisted reproduction to tomorrow’s personalized, synthesized ectogenesis may be right around the corner. More likely, these technological advances are in the distant future and may never be actualized. What we will likely see in the future of male fertility control is the interdisciplinary intersection of many interests: law, ethics, biology, chemistry, medicine and media. Several recent studies have indicated that parthenogenesis, the process by which the genetic material from two female embryos is capable of developing into an offspring without contribution from a male element, is possible in mammals. One of the first studies to reveal the importance of genetic imprinting in parthenogenesis appeared last April in Nature. The abstract can be seen below:
Birth of parthenogenetic mice that can develop to adulthood. * The development of parthenogenesis in humans, while still a long way off from a scientific standpoint, certainly carries with it some ethical implications and will certainly be resisted by many who believe that reproduction should only take place between a man and a woman. There are some who believe that human parthenotes may be useful for stem cell research, as the ethical dilemma of creating embryos for the purpose of generating new embryonic stem cell lines could be circumvented using parthenotes as the source. The theory behind this proposal is that if a parthenogenic embryo was not considered to be a potential life, then there would be no moral quandaries with extracting stem cells from the embryo at the blastocyst stage.
Link to article in science news: http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/parthenogenesis.html It is well known that embryos and sperm are capable of being cryopreserved for later use in infertility treatments. Although the process of freezing eggs is not currently widely available, there is evidence to suggest that this technique may be possible.
Link to Newsweek article “Fertility and the Freezer”: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5505094/site/newsweek/ Many doctors believe this technology should only be offered to certain patients: women undergoing chemotherapy or infertile couples opposed to freezing embryos for religious reasons as the cost and the burdens are many. By this fall, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine expects to publish its first guidelines, saying egg-freezing should be offered only as an experimental therapy under strict oversight and that it should not be marketed to "defer reproductive aging.”
The link below displays an abstract from a recent study involving cryopreservation of eggs that appeared in the journal Human Reproduction: Clinical application of human egg cryopreservation Questions or Comments: Email Dr. Verna Case Davidson College Biology Department
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/SeniorColloquium/04/ARTFuture.html
Comment in: • Nature. 2004 Apr 22;428(6985):809-11.
Birth of parthenogenetic mice that can develop to adulthood.
Kono T, Obata Y, Wu Q, Niwa K, Ono Y, Yamamoto Y, Park ES, Seo JS, Ogawa H.
Department of BioScience, Tokyo University of Agriculture, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 156-8502, Japan. tomohiro@nodai.ac.jp
… Here we show the development of a viable parthenogenetic mouse individual from a reconstructed oocyte containing two haploid sets of maternal genome, derived from non-growing and fully grown oocytes. This development was made possible by the appropriate expression of the Igf2 and H19 genes with other imprinted genes, using mutant mice with a 13-kilobase deletion in the H19 gene as non-growing oocytes donors. This full-term development is associated with a marked reduction in aberrantly expressed genes. The parthenote developed to adulthood with the ability to reproduce offspring. These results suggest that paternal imprinting prevents parthenogenesis, ensuring that the paternal contribution is obligatory for the descendant.
PMID: 15103378 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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http://7e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=7&id=72 The Invention of Artificial Parthenogenesis Chapter 5 in Controlling Life: Jacques Loeb and the Engineering Ideal in Biology, Oxford University Press, NY. Pp. 93-117. Philip J. Pauly, 1987
This chapter is reproduced here thanks to the generosity of the author and of the Oxford University Press.
From the late 1880s, Jacques Loeb had been living out his own scientific epic. The Urwald of Chicago was the setting for scientific creation. His 1896 cornerstone laying speech was a declaration of the path he proposed to take. In taking up physical chemistry, the direction of this path became clearer; but he only believed that he had found his own way in 1899 when he developed what he called "artificial parthenogenesis." The personal importance of this achievement was evident in his announcement of his result to Ernst Mach, in what would be his last confessional letter, that "it is in the end still possible that I find my dream realized, to see a constructive or engineering biology in place of a biology that is merely analytical." Artificial parthenogenesis brought Loeb scientific fame, and even popular notoriety, as a modern Faust. He used that heroic stature to continue his quest in what he considered the true Eden of California. Loeb worked alone on the shores of the Pacific for seven years, returning east periodically to proclaim the new scientific era.(1) …
49. "Artificial Parthenogenesis," Journal of the American Medical Association 34 (1900):1009-1010; Ludwig Hektoen to JL, 24 April 1900, LP box 6.
[Loeb] had enjoyed at Stanford's small Hopkins Marine Station in Pacific Grove, California, in the winters of 1898 and 1900. He confessed to Mall that he longed to live in California in order to develop the possibilities of artificial parthenogenesis full-time; he wanted to work on marine organisms because, he joked, they were the only animals, besides man, "whose life is entirely absorbed in assimilation and reproduction."(57)
Sorry about the length -- but figured it had better be thorough to satisy request for documentation. ---- kb - 2006.0804
Then please select the inclusion you choose... ---- kb -
I have provided a lot of discussion that you have deleted, why don't you select the parts that you feel are appropriate for this article -- It will eliminate lots of tedious back and forth... ---- kb -
I think the future possibilities regarding reproduction are quite germane to a discussion of women, when you know what you would retain, why not place it there? ---- kb -
Is it possible to add images of women in more activities/roles in the gallery. Perhaps a professional, scientist or athlete? Not a dog 19:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the first paragraph of biology, about trans and intersex, should be moved down. It's not a matter of importance, it's that it doesn't make sense to state the exeption before what it's an exception to. If I asked you "What is a bird?" you wouldn't start out by saying "Well, some birds can't fly...", it would just confuse me. Over on man it seems to read better IMO. -- 72.252.56.171 20:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
/* Women's rights */ blanking - covered by "Culture and gender roles", linked from "see also", copy-paste form original article, we don't have "Men's right" in man. --2 September 2006 82.166.109.71
Why was the whole section stripped out, without discussion on this page. And, can we have something discussed on this page other than the photo edit war??? There have been similar sections on other languages' pages without challeng. Dogru144 00:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
However, many other common english customs, such as always listing males before females and always calling "God" (or a Higher Power) "He" distinctly ARE sexist. - This is inherently POV, even if it is right. For it even to be considered valid, there needs to be a discussion of how it is sexist, and what sexist means, which are unnecessary digressions. Moreover, the capitalised "ARE" is not encyclopedic. If this sentence is to remain, i.e., be rendered validly, and thus retain the point validly, it needs to be reformed to less pointed language. Encyclopedic articles are not supposed to be moral essays for exclaiming one's opinion on a contentious issue. Think of a dispassionate, curious reader seeking education, and not one who needs to be instructed in moral values. Rintrah 15:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that there are too many pictures at the end of this article? It kind of looks like just anyone can go put up a picture of themselves or their friends, as long as they are female, and in my opinion it renders the article somewhat trite. Besides, there are all these ethnographic-ish photos of "exotic" women (except for one or two exceptions), and a bunch of ordinary-looking snapshots of Western, white women, which creates an unbalanced effect. I would suggest that the photos be limited to one from any given culture or society. If we're trying to represent women here, there are better ways to do it. Any suggestions? rom a rin talk ] 18:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
The essence of all the arguments against the Frua being placed there, critically, is due to the fact that some people personally do not want to see it there. I do not perceive the frau dissidents as wanting to prevent others from seeing the picture. We can satisfy both camps here. We can give people fair warning that there is a picture of a naked frua here; or we can simply dress up frau in clothes and declothe her when people click on her picture, if they want to see her naked. This is not censorship, because the naked frau is on wikipedia and is easily accessible to those who want to see it (by simply clicking on the frua and instantly declothing her) yet we can cater to those people who do not want the frau there, because she is naked etc. with a simple 'declothing option'
THis is just one solution i made up off the top of my head. In essence, the solution should give an option or warn people about the naked frau, and give them choice as to whether or not they want her naked. This would satisfy both camps, and would at the same time not censor wikipedia, because the naked frua would still be very accessible.
I'm adding this section to help people keep track of the edit wars about the picture. I'm trying to address the "posession is 9 points of the law" issue - that is, it is very hard for the average editor to track the history of the which image is the lead on the page itself, and so whatever they see there when they load it seems appears to be the presumptive consensus. This keeps newcomers from understanding the real situation, and thus dooms the page to an eternal slow-grinding edit war between the partisans who, though we have good faith, are not getting anywhere (without prejudice, I'd include Nunh-huh, Haham hanuka, Kasreyn, and myself Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC) as the ones I've noticed, I'm sure there are others)
If this does not work, I will consider creating a template that simply contains whatever image is being used this week. I'd put a comment explaining how to edit the template in the wikitext of the page, and if someone removed the template I would say the right response would be to remove the image from the template and replace the template and . This would serve to create a separate edit history just for the image issue, on a page also subject to above-average vandalism and actual progress. -- Homunq 20:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
So here's the good-faith history over the last 250 edits as I see it. If you change the image please note it here. Homunq claims that the following sentence should read "Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion." but be bold and edit it if you think you have a better standard.
Changes to the lead photo which are not accompanied by some edit to the talk page under the same name (here or elsewhere) are subject to reversion. Changes which are accompanied by a comment elsewhere should be noted here by their originator or the next person who comes along. This is not the place for argument (there's plenty of room just below), it's just a history so people can see how it got where it is.
Current status: Montage
Status as of sep 2006, 250 edits ago as I write: frau
There's no actual real photograph on this page that shows a woman. We have a drawing of one, but that's kind of, uh, pointless. We need to do what the SETI people did and put these silly human body shame issues to rest and find the most representative photograph we can find, and use it. -- Cyde Weys 06:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Ha! What exactly is the most representative? There is so much variation that any "representative" photograph is likely to be biased or, even worse, more representative of a particular race or ethnic group.
Just a note on the "Apollo" image ( Image:Human-woman.png): it is not from the Apollo missions, but from the Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 space probes to Jupiter and Saturn, the first two man-made objects to leave the Solar System. The woman and man were drawn to be as pan-racial as possible and according to the conventions of classic Greek sculpture. Also, since the probes were publicly funded. they could not fly in the face of American mores of the time (the early 1970s). -- Stefano KALB 01:51, 16 Jul 2006 (UTC)
The German, the Spanish and the Dutch Wiki's have this pic as a main one. Also in the article man we have a nude photo. We can found a better nude photo, but It seems the best right now -- Haham hanuka 17:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I think we should put her at the top, but not the current image (Frau-2.jpg), a different photo:
An encyclopædia should also be able to give the browser their first ever introduction to something new. These are my opinions based on this.
I reckon a lot of people want to put a fat, ugly mature woman as the main picture because they're scared of being accused of stereotyping/putting pressure on women/trying to please men's sexual desires/idealistic. Why not put a really beautiful woman as the main picture? This encyclopædia's entry for 'flower' has several really beautiful, striking flowers at the top, and the entry for Peacock/Peafowl is of the male of the species showing off its amazing tail-feathers, not of the dull brown female.
In my opinion:
- The picture at the top should be a naked woman, the most clear way to depict the difference between the male and female of our species. The genitals should ideally be more visible (this does help if the area is shaved, even though this is a habitual modification) but not a close-up or pose that could be classified obscene, though this is a very subjective matter I know.
I don't think we should use a nude woman. There are some people that I see using Wikipedia that are younger than the appropriate viewing age for that picture. I agree with a woman in a bikini, but not this.
A clothed person might be used under the 'human being' entry but serves little purpose here, especially in this day and age when clothed men and women sometimes look very similar, and considering cultural differences in clothing.
- Should be a photograph, not a drawing or diagram as just like every other entry in the encyclopædia of anything with visible mass this is the most accurate and easiest to understand.
- Should be a young woman, at the peak of fertility (eg. aged 18-30). Older woman have beauty in their own right, but most people in the world, regardless of culture, find her most attractive at a young age, thus the most famous artists have depicted her since the beginning.
+ Should be a fit and healthy woman, NOT like the one in the current photograph (Frau-2.jpg).
-A fit and healthy woman will naturally have a greater muscle:fat ratio, therefore a slimmer waist than Frau-2.jpg, but still with curvacious hips (healthy females deposit fat on their hips more than on their bellies).
Obviously you've never seen many naked women. Fat deposits are highly induvidual and it would depend the person. A woman has fat on her stomach and hips.
-A fit and healthy woman is NOT anorexic or overly skinny, but has a healthy fleshy covering.
-I realise the average western woman (and man!) is not so healthy, but here we should be giving an example of women world-wide, and it would be a shame to present an unhealthy image as if it were natural.
How is the woman in the picture not fit and healthy? There are many different versions of a healthy body and hers looks perfectly fine. Just because she may not fit your standards of beauty does not mean she's unhealthy. Softshoe 00:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- No make-up, tattoes or other modifications - these vary greatly depending on culture.
Would be nice to photograph a mixed-race woman to cover the race issue. - OXFORD, UK
WHy do you "OXFORD, UK" ( if the above comment is all from one person) feel we need to have an attractive woman??? No such image is on the man page for example. Are you really saying frau is fat? and ugly? she is neither. I find her heathy looking. with a healthy fleshy covering (unliike bikini girl). HAving said that, i dont really like frau, the drawing simplifies the whole situation to me. Or move frau down the page a little.
What about nat krate's vitruvian woman.?
I dont understand your little - and + . are these points you are against and for?
Cilstr
05:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Answers for OXFORD, UK in order:
Now, I think Erleuthung is much better than Frau, because it is much farther from promoting somebody's standard of nice cosy femininity or absolute, perfect womanhood. But, while I would hardly engage in an edit war about it, I don't think that even having a nude picture in the top is necessary. In talk:Man, User:Angr's main argument for having a nude picture is that "The top picture needs to be nude because this is first and foremost a biology article, and the entire male body needs to be shown.". In fact, that doesn't hold true of the article Man and even less of this article, because both are not only about the biological, but also about the social and cultural (even linguistic) aspects of the concept - actually, these latter ones occupy more space than the first one. Putting only the nude picture on top seems to imply that the biological aspect is the most important one, as it is in animals. This is, at best, a POV. In fact, it's clear that society and culture are at least as important as biology in determining the "being" of men and women.
Another thing is that this topic is just too sensitive. Whether we like it or not, each illustration in the heading of such an article will tend to imply that this or that is what the typical, absolute woman, the essence of femininity looks like. So one good solution would be a collage, and another one would be an image like "women of Egypt" (see also the Arabic and the Danish versions, silly as they are), which overtly and with a measure of irony refuses to even attempt to portray "the essence of femininity". -- 85.187.44.131 22:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the image of a nude woman to the top of the article, and added a pointer in the caption to the similar image at man, and vice versa. Logically, either both should stay, or both should go. Can you tell me why you consider an image of a nude woman unacceptable, whilst a nude man is OK? -- The Anome 23:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The meditating woman drawing is not relevant to this article. There is absoultely nothing wrong with a picture of a nude woman. If there are editors that are see this image as prurient, please note that it is not, as it is a photo taken obviosuly without that intention. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Stored version Line 99: Line 99:
I am not involved in this content dispute. I just reverted what I considered to be vandalism, e.g. the removal of an image that was placed a while back, as I have this article on my watch list to combat vandalism. I added a gallery of images from commons a few weeks ago, that may be suitable to illustrate this article. I will let these that are into editing this article find a suitable image to replace the previous image, providig this is done not based on puritanism or other POV. Happy editing. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
(Please note FYI that
Media:Erleuchtung.jpg is copyrighted and will get IFD'd. Original photo at
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/6298560/
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
01:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC))
I am amused that there is this outcry against a nude woman image at the top of the page, and then there are pictures of nude women throughout the article. I think that the outcry comes from a strange combination of 21st century feminist weirdness and 19th century Victorian prudishness. If these images offend all of you so much, why don't you spin them off on to their own article with a title like "Naked Chicks Through the Ages".-- Drvanthorp 21:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Drop the Nazi invocation when bringing up the 'Frau.' Re 'Frau' as a word, just click on the left for 'Deutsch' (that's German): you'll see that Frau is 'woman' in German. As to the model's weight, I doubt that she'd consent to being photographed if people would exaggerate her weight (which is perfectly fine). Accusations of being overweight are part of American attitudes that fuel bulimia, anorexia and other eating disorders. Dogru144 16:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we move the nude picture down on the article, so its not immediately available? Then we could paste a warning at the top of the page for those who don't want to see a woman naked. Single guy 00:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
To Nunh-huh: I'm having trouble contextualizing your statement "Wikipedia might find something more important to say about "woman" than "a man with tits"." Is this what a woman is to you? A man with tits? Please explain, because I find it difficult to agree that someone with this viewpoint should be editing the Woman article at all. rom a rin talk ] 16:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
This is a copy of my discussion with user:Gwernol, which should also serve as an explanation as to why I'm re-inserting my edit. -- 85.187.44.131 11:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
May I ask why you reverted my edit on Woman without any comment? Did you regard it as vandalism or what? --85.187.44.131 14:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I do not think that is necessary to add depilated. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I obviously have the majority against me, but I must say I'm not convinced at all.
227 (can we call you 227?), I completely understand your uncomfort with this photo. It is extremely hard to find a good representation of what "woman" looks like, probably even impossible, as there are so many different women with different physical characteristics, whether due to genetics or culture. Personally, I would rather support a photo of a woman who was not depilated, as I see removal of pubic hair as a potentially sexist custom (woman trying to look like young girl for man's pleasure, etc.). I'm sure that there are plenty of other reasons why some women choose to do this, but I'm just pointing this out to show you that my reasoning is not that I think a depilated woman is the best representation. I do think, however, as I mentioned before, that we have to draw the line somewhere, and we can't list everything in the photo caption that makes this woman a product of her society and/or her own individuality. Maybe someone will come up with another photo that we all can agree is better here, but until then, I support this photo, and I don't think it is necessary to mention her depilation. I think that jossi is right too; people will know, if they notice at all. And for now, if readers really want to see pubic hair, they can visit Pubic hair. rom a rin talk ] 02:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me why someone put a nude woman picture on this article. We will not accept this on wikipedia.-- 67.34.212.66 13:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I returned here a few weeks later specifically to delete that picture. Thankfully, someone beat me to it? What is wrong with that picture? ------------> I don't feel comfortable showing it to my mother. I don't feel comfortable reading that article at school, when a teacher could easily suspend me for it. That is the test as to whether something is acceptible or not. Readers, don't you agree?
I have no problem with a nude woman at the top of the article. The article is about woman obviously we need a picture of a woman, obviously that woman should be nude. However i do see that it is difficult to represent "woman" by displaying a photo of just one woman. Ideally I would like to see a collection of women - all nude - of different ages, races and weights, standing or sitting in a naturally posed group. That would be my ideal photo, however until a photo like that becomes available I'm happy to settle for the one we have at the top of the article. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 14:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see how this is "porn" in any way. It's like saying the statue of the Spirit of Justicewith an exposed breast is porn. -- mboverload @ 22:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Nunh-huh, 70.115, just lay off. It's clear you're not going to agree. Quit wasting so much talk page space on something so futile.
Oh, and 70.115, don't think I didn't see your attempts to make it look like Nunh-huh called you a "Douchebag" [4] and a troll [5]. You inserted that. If you try to put words in someone else's mouth again, you will be reported to an administrator. Have a wonderful day, Kasreyn 09:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your name using four tildes (~~~~) under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed.
Question: Should the main image at the top of the article be a nude photo?
Discussion resulting from the survey would go here. If there were a significant amount, it might be moved to a talk page instead.
Support. The article is about a woman as a whole, not just about her normally visible parts. Same goes for the man article.— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 19:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Re: the comments of MrDolomite and Lawilkin. I agree that a nude photo is controversial. Unfortunately I think the proposed solution (picture of a clothed woman) would be at least as controversial and likely more so. Clothes are so culturally specific that you will just have endless debate about what is a good photo to use. Trying to create more "decency" (not really sure what that means as its a totally subjective term) closes down one source of debate but opens up another huge one, so doesn't seem to address your concerns. Best, Gwernol 18:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
CaptainManacles 23:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Right... More to the point, the photograph represents the only state the is verifiably universal to ALL women. You're wrong, in the minorty, and frankly, making a fool of yourself with your poorly thought out attempts at argument. Every time someone refutes you (for example, like I have) your argument changes. I imagine it will change again, in a vain attempt to refute the fact that women all share the depicted state.
The is absolutely no way to represent all women (all three billion of them) with any one photograph. But for the purposes of exemplifying a woman, the Frau is ideal. This woman is pretty average is most every respect, and having no clothes removes almost all cultural connotations. We could split hairs and go on about her make up, depilation, etc…, but again, nothing is going to be perfect, but for purpose of illustrating the topic of the article, it works well. JayMan 18:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The pro- arguments are essentially saying either 1) that nudity is the best illustration of the most universal part of the definition of the term or 2) that anything else would be culturally biased. The anti- arguments say A) that nudity is offensive B) that nudity privileges a reductionist viewpoint of women (direct counterargument to 1) and C) that you can't escape some cultural specificity so you shouldn't try. Personally I'd say that the 2/C debate is irresolvable and thus to be avoided. A) seems directly counter to WP:NOT. So we're down to 1 vs. B. Obviously there are partisans on both sides, but really I can't see how proponents of 1 ("we have the best option out of several") should be as offended by losing the argument as proponents of B ("your option, considered as part of a larger pattern, does concrete harm"). I personally am more sympathetic to B than to 1, but even if I weren't I think I'd accept that a "further down" compromise worth it to reduce conflict. -- Homunq 21:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The ongoing reversion is absolutely ridiculous. Decide what you will, but stop flipping between versions until a consensus decision is made. Dysprosia 08:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The current pic of the nude woman is totally unacceptable in such an article....it must be either deleted or replaced. Kshatriya knight 21:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Whether the picture is appropriate or not is not the issue. You achieve consensus before acting, not the other way around. Dysprosia 05:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there needs to be consensus on the image. There is none, so I've removed it. Hopefully this will speed agreement on an appropriate image. I'd suggest the Pioneer image that existed here for so long with no dispute, but there are certainly other alternates. - Nunh-huh 14:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Again: "Any image which has not reached consensus here will be removed." This is the only way forward. - Nunh-huh 15:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While I am happy with the current image, I'm aware that the ~70% consensus it received in the poll above is not great by Wikipedia standards (see WP:NOT). I've been trying to think of workable compromises, like maybe some sort of time share arrangement between clothed/unclothed images (which seems to me to be the crux of the disagreement). I then remembered that hearing that the main image on flower cycles through various flower images (see right); I suppose choosing one image of a flower to lead that page was a similar challenge to choosing a woman of one age/ethnicity/culture to head ours!
So, I thought we might perhaps do something similar here. The technology is pretty straight-forward: just an animated gif slide show of a bunch of images. All we'd need do you is decide which images to use, crop them to the same proportions, and run them through an animated gif maker. This would allow us to display both clothed and unclothed women from as many different backgrounds as we can find, all effectively at the same time.
The questions we need to answer first, though, are:
-- jwanders Talk 21:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
You mischaracterize the objections. Some object to any nude; others object to its position; and still more object to this specific picture being displayed at that position. And there is no consensus for the Frau picture. - Nunh-huh 21:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I know I'm new to this discussion, but Nunh-huh I find the off-handedness of your remarks above imply that you've given up any chance of reaching a compromise here—I hope I'm misinterpreting. This is not the place to rehash the history of this debate, that only fills up the talk page and makes it more difficult for other uses to follow the current discussion. Instead, I'd appreciate it if you would respond specifically concerning the proposal I made above, i.e. whether you agree with an animated slide show in general and whether you would accept the inclusion of unclothed women in such a slide show. -- jwanders Talk 10:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I find this discussion quite facinating. This article, will be read by humans that know what a woman is and look like. Those people that either because of age or culture have never been exposed to a naked human body, will have the benefit from seeing a female body. That is consistent with the aims of this encyclopedia. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I was a little startled to see a nude woman as the lead photograph. It is certainly not a "work-safe" article. I would support moving it down the page a little to protect the sensibilities of readers who come across the article unexpectedly (such as by clicking a wikilink). Either that or make it a little smaller.
However we then get into the "what are you ashamed about" question, and I can see a lot of merit in that. If we have a nude photograph, then why be partially ashamed of it?
Personally, I like Frau. She's not overtly sexual, she seems proud of herself, she's reasonably representative, and I find the small touches such as nail polish to be entirely consistent with my view of a woman, as women tend to be more likely to decorate their bodies than men.
However, the article needs a lead picture, and given the impossibility of finding a clad image that is absolutely free of cultural specifics, then we should have a nude for that reason and to illustrate (or at least hint at) the biological differences.
But though we can eliminate clothing, we can't remove other factors such as ethnicity, and in this instance, Frau is in a minority position, being white and Western. Of course, you could make the same argument for any woman.
We are also limited in the sort of photographs we can use, as they must have an appropriate license.
I wonder if we can get a group of appropriately diverse female editors to pose at Wikimania 2006? -- Jumbo 03:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
How about we do what we did for World War II - a montage of photos of women, different races, young, old, pregnant, differing degrees of clothed. DJ Clayworth 19:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Per Clayworth's suggestion above, I threw this image together. I like the compromise of being able to have both clothed and unclothed women and have women from a variety of backgrounds. Thoughts? -- jwanders Talk 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I should be able to; my image manipulation skills are spotty at best ;-) What colour do you think would work best? -- jwanders Talk 23:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I've linked to them all from the image's page -- jwanders Talk 00:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Better? It's very poorly put together if you look at it closely; If we decide to use one of these, I suggest we find someone with actual image skills to put it together ;-) But these should suffice for the present discussion, methinks. -- jwanders Talk 10:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I like to have something of this sort replace the current main image on the page; can I get some idea if people would support or oppose that? (This isn't a formal poll, just a quick test to see where the consensus is and how best to proceed.) -- jwanders Talk 07:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I really like the Frau with brown background. And in case someone else doesn't say it, thanks for the hard work, I think you did a very good job. 70.115.211.122 11:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)Nunya
Seems pretty redundant to me....
_________________________________________________ Also that the upper and lower images are so similar in that they depict, with a similar position and background, a woman of childbearing age in her undraped muliebrity.
To eliminate the issue of racial appearance altogether, I suggest a monochrome, outlined illustration of a woman, devoid of "features" that may bear any indication to race, as that seems to be such a touchy issue. Stovetopcookies 00:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Why should it matter what race, ethnicity, etc.? It's an example picture of a woman, so that in case someone does not know what a woman looks like, they will recognize one next time they see one. It's like showing a picture of a car. Does it matter if it is a Ford, Chevy, etc? A car is going to be more or less the same. It's a demo picture of a pregnant(?) woman, nothing more. I don't see why this has to be made into such an issue because she is caucasian. I cannot help but wonder, would we be receiving this much talk over it if the original photo had been of a woman of another race? Stovetopcookies 02:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Must the picture be of a "contemporary" white European woman who is depilated? The picture ive proposed is of Indira Varma that exhibits the body of a woman in its natural state (undepilated)....note the picture was uploaded by someone else. Freakkk
OK...so lets discuss this image... pro you cant tell what specific race...she is not black nor white she is "undepilated"...her hair is not neatly in place...this is the "natural" woman...the biological woman
con she is wearing some jewelery like a waist band so may turn it into a beauty subject feet not shown not as "clinical" as Frau since frau was neatly placed on a white background
still we should be open to suggestion Freakkk 07:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, I have removed the picture of the naked woman. I am in agreement that whether the picture stays or goes depends on common consensus. But because of its controversial nature, the picture should be removed UNTIL we have consensus enough; until we are absolutely sure on our positions. Till then, after extensive polling and after coming to a consensus on the picture it should remain down. Right now, because it is so controversial, it should remain off till we have a meaningful consensus happening.
The onus lies with it off the web, till enough evidence is there to prove it should go back on. The GrandMaster has spoken. TheGrandMaster 00:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Look at the poll numbers. Do we not have consensus enough?? TheGrandMaster 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Because of the many issues raised (particulary viewing this page from classrooms) and the whole Adult Conspiracy thing, using Image:Human-woman.png seems to be the Right Way to go, especially if it includes a link to the Pioneer plaque in its caption to show where it came from. (It's obvious from the discussion—search this page for "Pioneer"—that most people are unaware of it's origin, or the correct link reference to use ... even the page for the image fails to identify it!) To make them match, the article for Man could use the companion image, Image:Human-man.png. Just my 2¢ worth. -- Dennette 01:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
It might be worth semi-protecting the page for a while. An Anon user continually removes the first image of the nude woman. On Omicronpersei8's talk page the user gave the reason that the picture was offensive to Muslims. As this user has no account, it could be a good idea to semi-protect the page. - Neural 23:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
...the image should be removed temporarily. Stovetopcookies 23:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Reading this page, the only possible conclusion is that there is no consensus, and not much possibility of consensus on either extreme (Frau or no-nudity). The clearest compromises available are the montages (temporal or spatial) including both clothed and naked women. I personally prefer the spatial montage for portability to other media. I know that I'm going to be reverted, but I'm going to take a stand here by putting it in there. Please, whoever reverts me, give your argument for keeping an image that, while it does have a simple majority support, is contentiously non-consensus.-- Homunq 00:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
does she have to be naked? cant it just be like a photo of some non-naked woman? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.116.93.68 ( talk • contribs) .
I have no intention to read the long pages of discussions that took place in June to August. I have had a skim through it all and it tends to be just Wiki-politics over the line betwene censorship/pornography or whatever. I want to point out a practical side which made me immediately remove the image earlier without attempting to discuss it. I was on a public computer at my university which has a strict policy of banning students from computer labs for viewing images containing nudity. And as I clicked on the page
woman from some other article, this came up spanning a full screen height! Has it been considered that a reader who might be in presence of other people might not want to be seen as viewing a full screen image of a naked woman? This is why I moved it down the page when I did - I think the image should stay, but why does it have to be at the top and why does it have to be so large?--
Konst.
able
22:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Is she pregnant? Perhaps that could be mentioned along with the whole depilation thing?
Stovetopcookies
07:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the montage as it is super ugly, IMO. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't a more appropriate caption be "Common ethnic stereotypes of women" ? -- 70.71.155.24 05:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there any reason why the collage of pictures in the main picture contains a picture of a nude caucasian woman only while the women from the other cultures are clothed in their respective "traditional" way? I find it rather offensive to traditional minded white people as it seems to suggest that "clothes free" is a culture amongst caucasians and are more "liberal" and more open about sexuality than other cultures. Having a nude picture is a problem, since there are difficulties with race and culture, and style (body hair/shaven, long hair/short hair, etc.), that is why I support the asexual Pioneer image to demonstrate the "nude" form of a woman, and to have other pictures which show different races of women in their traditional clothing. Freakkk 00:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The painting of the woman, on my screen, dwarfs the adjacent content. Though it is beautifully painted, I think its size should be reduced so as to not draw attention away from the article content. An encyclopedia is foremost a text; so pictures should only have a secondary role. Rintrah 12:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
The article is becoming a work of self-indulgence by female gender rights activism. It is already 3 times the length of the Man article and is full of connotation and innuendo which stretches credibility of the article and its neutrality. Case in point: "It is commonly accepted that the reason both men and women have breasts is that the rudimentary form of animals was female for millions of years." This is neither cited, nor is it commonly accepted (noting that since animals are thought to have decended from flagellate protozoa, which is akin to sperm, this is quite a claim). It is a broad claim on gender origins on the entire Kingdom of Animalia, lacking scientific pretext. Furthermore, the quality of both articles is very poor, with statements such as "the breast is an enlarged sweat gland" working to degrade the quality of the woman article. The majority of the article is unneccesary and focuses on arguments of sexism, which, while an important side note for the article - is not the main focus of the article itself.
Furthermore, I would like to point out to whomever added these ridiculous, unscientific and biased claims: you are suggesting that males evolved from females as a standard. This implies that males are more evolved, is that your true belief? Perhaps that illustrates the need to remain objective and scientific here, despite all your beliefs and urges to the contrary. You do yourselves a disservice by detracting from the credibility and value of this article. C00kiemnstr 17:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you try to improve the article? Complaining about it won't make it any better and I'm interested to see what you could contribute. CerealBabyMilk 20:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Already have (01:50, 1 November 2006 70.171.231.12), removing speculative information without citation, adding or improving information on some topics, rewording sentances to a more neutral stance and etc. The edit was quickly reverted to a previous version in it's entirety, and I'm not interested in wasting my time on an edit/revert war with hopeless malcontents. Since the disscussion page directly bears on the content and future actions taken upon the article, me writing my concerns here should help to improve the article, at least indirectly. Thanks for complaining about my complaints though. C00kiemnstr 04:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, much of this article is terible. I have replaced "and today, using the word, girl, to refer to grown women in most social settings and the workplace (as in office girl) typically is considered inappropriate and denigrating in the United States and United Kingdom because it implies a view of women as infantile, having a parallel in the use of the term "boy" for black men to deny their adult status in racist communities. It is sometimes stated that the use remains commonplace in several other English-speaking countries, without such implications, but research regarding that is lacking. ". This shows an incredible application of double standards, re need for research or citations (not to mention an at best spurious parallel). There is still much work to be done. Certainly in Britain, girl is often gerenally for all women, and is not vesital. Similarly, using the term boy to refer to a fully grown man is common and not necessarily offencive. Thehalfone 09:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, that's good. What about the "certain cultures woman is a family insult meaning nonvirgin" bit? I took out "non-western" but still feel that this section should either give an example of such a culture or go. I'd prefer the latter, it's not notable in this context IMO, but I'll leave it in to give others a chance to fix it or cut it.-- Homunq 16:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do you keep changing it to 'oestrogen'? Is there some reasoning behind this that I'm not aware of? -- Blarrrg 18:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Why does this picture was deleted? -- Haham hanuka 14:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Every English dictionary agrees that a woman is an adult female human. However, the Category:Women article, which I propose a rename for, is about simply female humans. Anything regarding the word's actual definition?? Georgia guy 14:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Why is
Image:Formentera i Eivissa 019 cropped.jpg
(the naked women on the beach)
on a this page????
It looks more to me like pornography than something to describe women.
Also did the women on the top page know she was going to be put on Wikipedia?
{I'm Not Accussing anyone of putting on the internet without consent.}
(Remember Jesus Loves You!!!)
...I'm disappointed.
From the nude lady all the way down through the whole article.
I expected it to have more of a professional layout such as the article on men.
They had a little bit of everything about the guy--age, maturity, development, psychological development, and the like.
I didn't see a huge showcase of all the famous things that guys started. Neither did I see little parts about famous men who helped out with women's suffrage.
All I see is...
1. A nude lady. 2. A tiny description about women and where the word comes from. 3. A tad bit about how emotional they are and certain cases of emotional disturbance that they go through. 4. A HUGE SHOWCASE on "women's rights" and "prejudices against women."
To me, it sounds like the article is overemphasizing on "little things" instead of examing what all she goes through (from childhood upwards).
I for one, say that someone needs to clean the article up.
What say you?
Compare:
Article on Men vs Article on Women
--JJ
It is impossible to describe what a woman goes through childhood upwards. Women of different cultures, ethnicities, sexualities, and incomes have vastly different experiences. the only the thing every woman inherently shares is a similar body. One can describe the experience of woman throughout history as a group, but individually woman differ so much it is impossible to describe their lves
--csw
Perhaps most of this should be in an article on parthenogenesis, but here is my attempt to provide the sources requested for some discussion to exist in this article on women.
Google results: 80,000 for parthenogenesis in humans.
…………………………………..
Google definitions include:
• human conception without fertilization by a man • process in which an unfertilized egg develops into a new individual; common among insects and some other arthropods wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
(par•the•no•gen•e•sis) (pahr²th[schwa]-no-jen¢[schwa]-sis) [Gr. parthenos virgin + -genesis] a modified form of sexual reproduction by the development of a gamete without fertilization, as occurs in some plants and invertebrates, especially arthropods, eg, honey bees and wasps, and in certain lizards. It may occur as a natural phenomenon or be induced by chemical, thermal, or mechanical stimulation (artificial p.). www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands.jspzQzpgzEzzSzppdocszSzuszSzcommonzSzdorlandszSzdorlandzSzdmd_p_07zPzhtm
Process of reproduction by the development of an unfertilized egg. ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_P.htm
The production of offspring by a female with no genetic contribution from a male. The development of an individual from an unfertilized egg that did not arise by meiotic chromosome reduction . helios.bto.ed.ac.uk/bto/glossary/p.htm
……………………………………………………………………………………………..
Advanced Cell Technology (ACT) recently published a study demonstrating that parthenogenesis can be used in non-human primates. [D] Cibelli, Robert P. et al Science Magazine. "Parthenogenic Stem Cells in Non-Human Primates." wysiwyg://10/ http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/295/5556/819. • The eggs at the 36 hour stage of development were soaked in media derived from a pregnant mare and kinase. • 28 of the original 77 eggs reached the stage of metaphase II. • 4 of these 28 eggs reached the blastocyte stage. • The cells extracted from this experiment were found to contain characteristics of embryonic stem cells. • Derivatives of all three germ layers were grown from this same set of cells. [E] Shoukhrat, Mitalipov M. et al Biology of Reproduction. "Parthenogenetic Activation of Rhesus Monkey Oocytes and Reconstructed Embryos". Vol. 65 Pg 253-259, 2001. This experiment leads directly into a realistic possibility of parthenogenesis in humans.
http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI0032/partheno/human.htm
………………………………………
Institute for Reproductive Medicine and Genetic Testing Pioneer in Embryo Genetic Testing and Gender Selection … In Los Angeles, Jerry Hall of the Institute of Reproductive Medicine and Genetic Testing is also working on parthenogenesis. He wouldn't reveal any details but was confident it would work in humans. "Not only are we optimistic that parthenogenesis in humans would lead us to the same results, I would be surprised if they didn't."…
http://www.preimplantationgenetictesting.com/Media5.htm
…………………………………
J Exp Clin Assist Reprod. 2004; 1: 3. Published online 2004 December 8. doi: 10.1186/1743-1050-1-3. Copyright © 2004 Hipp and Atala; licensee BioMed Central Ltd.
Tissue engineering, stem cells, cloning, and parthenogenesis: new paradigms for therapy Jason Hipp1 and Anthony Atala 1,2 1Wake Forest Institute for Regenerative Medicine Wake Forest University School of Medicine Winston Salem, North Carolina USA 2Wake Forest University School of Medicine Medical Center Blvd. Winston Salem, North Carolina 27157 USA
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=539246
………………….
The Future of Assisted Reproductive Technology The field of assisted reproductive technology has been developed in the past thirty years. The oldest person born from an IVF pregnancy is in her early twenties. The oldest child produced from a frozen embryo is a teenager and the oldest ICSI child is less than 10 years old (Hardy, 2002). Since ART methods have not been around long enough to gauge whether there are any long term, late onset effects, it is not known whether there will be adverse effects on future generations. Even though physiological health may appear equal in babies spawned using ART, the reproductive performance of their offspring cannot yet be determined (Hardy, 2002). Based on history and the possibility of future technologies, it is likely that the new methods of ART will be developed, allowing infertile couples more options, should they choose to seek help producing an offspring that is biologically their own. One recent and hopeful example, for females diagnosed with cancer, is an ovarian transplant as a future possibility for preserving fertility. The experimental steps would include cryopreserving one or both of a woman’s ovaries immediately following cancer diagnosis and transplanting the tissue back into the woman following cancer treatment. Ideally, normal oocyte development will occur. In 1999, ovarian tissue was successfully transplanted into a woman who suffered early menopause. In 2002, a whole ovary transplant was successfully conducted in a woman. Studies in monkeys show that fertility after ovarian transplant is a possibility (Tizzard, 2003). Cryopreservation of ovarian tissue is another possibility for women diagnosed with cancer. Currently, such young women are faced with the decision to undergo cancer treatment immediately, which may render them infertile, or wait until their menstrual cycle provides them with an egg to preserve. It is possible that “the pursuit of human perfection” will be taken to new extremes. People may be able to choose specific traits for their children. The scientific breakthroughs which will change today’s moderate methods of assisted reproduction to tomorrow’s personalized, synthesized ectogenesis may be right around the corner. More likely, these technological advances are in the distant future and may never be actualized. What we will likely see in the future of male fertility control is the interdisciplinary intersection of many interests: law, ethics, biology, chemistry, medicine and media. Several recent studies have indicated that parthenogenesis, the process by which the genetic material from two female embryos is capable of developing into an offspring without contribution from a male element, is possible in mammals. One of the first studies to reveal the importance of genetic imprinting in parthenogenesis appeared last April in Nature. The abstract can be seen below:
Birth of parthenogenetic mice that can develop to adulthood. * The development of parthenogenesis in humans, while still a long way off from a scientific standpoint, certainly carries with it some ethical implications and will certainly be resisted by many who believe that reproduction should only take place between a man and a woman. There are some who believe that human parthenotes may be useful for stem cell research, as the ethical dilemma of creating embryos for the purpose of generating new embryonic stem cell lines could be circumvented using parthenotes as the source. The theory behind this proposal is that if a parthenogenic embryo was not considered to be a potential life, then there would be no moral quandaries with extracting stem cells from the embryo at the blastocyst stage.
Link to article in science news: http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SU/parthenogenesis.html It is well known that embryos and sperm are capable of being cryopreserved for later use in infertility treatments. Although the process of freezing eggs is not currently widely available, there is evidence to suggest that this technique may be possible.
Link to Newsweek article “Fertility and the Freezer”: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5505094/site/newsweek/ Many doctors believe this technology should only be offered to certain patients: women undergoing chemotherapy or infertile couples opposed to freezing embryos for religious reasons as the cost and the burdens are many. By this fall, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine expects to publish its first guidelines, saying egg-freezing should be offered only as an experimental therapy under strict oversight and that it should not be marketed to "defer reproductive aging.”
The link below displays an abstract from a recent study involving cryopreservation of eggs that appeared in the journal Human Reproduction: Clinical application of human egg cryopreservation Questions or Comments: Email Dr. Verna Case Davidson College Biology Department
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/vecase/SeniorColloquium/04/ARTFuture.html
Comment in: • Nature. 2004 Apr 22;428(6985):809-11.
Birth of parthenogenetic mice that can develop to adulthood.
Kono T, Obata Y, Wu Q, Niwa K, Ono Y, Yamamoto Y, Park ES, Seo JS, Ogawa H.
Department of BioScience, Tokyo University of Agriculture, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 156-8502, Japan. tomohiro@nodai.ac.jp
… Here we show the development of a viable parthenogenetic mouse individual from a reconstructed oocyte containing two haploid sets of maternal genome, derived from non-growing and fully grown oocytes. This development was made possible by the appropriate expression of the Igf2 and H19 genes with other imprinted genes, using mutant mice with a 13-kilobase deletion in the H19 gene as non-growing oocytes donors. This full-term development is associated with a marked reduction in aberrantly expressed genes. The parthenote developed to adulthood with the ability to reproduce offspring. These results suggest that paternal imprinting prevents parthenogenesis, ensuring that the paternal contribution is obligatory for the descendant.
PMID: 15103378 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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http://7e.devbio.com/article.php?ch=7&id=72 The Invention of Artificial Parthenogenesis Chapter 5 in Controlling Life: Jacques Loeb and the Engineering Ideal in Biology, Oxford University Press, NY. Pp. 93-117. Philip J. Pauly, 1987
This chapter is reproduced here thanks to the generosity of the author and of the Oxford University Press.
From the late 1880s, Jacques Loeb had been living out his own scientific epic. The Urwald of Chicago was the setting for scientific creation. His 1896 cornerstone laying speech was a declaration of the path he proposed to take. In taking up physical chemistry, the direction of this path became clearer; but he only believed that he had found his own way in 1899 when he developed what he called "artificial parthenogenesis." The personal importance of this achievement was evident in his announcement of his result to Ernst Mach, in what would be his last confessional letter, that "it is in the end still possible that I find my dream realized, to see a constructive or engineering biology in place of a biology that is merely analytical." Artificial parthenogenesis brought Loeb scientific fame, and even popular notoriety, as a modern Faust. He used that heroic stature to continue his quest in what he considered the true Eden of California. Loeb worked alone on the shores of the Pacific for seven years, returning east periodically to proclaim the new scientific era.(1) …
49. "Artificial Parthenogenesis," Journal of the American Medical Association 34 (1900):1009-1010; Ludwig Hektoen to JL, 24 April 1900, LP box 6.
[Loeb] had enjoyed at Stanford's small Hopkins Marine Station in Pacific Grove, California, in the winters of 1898 and 1900. He confessed to Mall that he longed to live in California in order to develop the possibilities of artificial parthenogenesis full-time; he wanted to work on marine organisms because, he joked, they were the only animals, besides man, "whose life is entirely absorbed in assimilation and reproduction."(57)
Sorry about the length -- but figured it had better be thorough to satisy request for documentation. ---- kb - 2006.0804
Then please select the inclusion you choose... ---- kb -
I have provided a lot of discussion that you have deleted, why don't you select the parts that you feel are appropriate for this article -- It will eliminate lots of tedious back and forth... ---- kb -
I think the future possibilities regarding reproduction are quite germane to a discussion of women, when you know what you would retain, why not place it there? ---- kb -
Is it possible to add images of women in more activities/roles in the gallery. Perhaps a professional, scientist or athlete? Not a dog 19:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the first paragraph of biology, about trans and intersex, should be moved down. It's not a matter of importance, it's that it doesn't make sense to state the exeption before what it's an exception to. If I asked you "What is a bird?" you wouldn't start out by saying "Well, some birds can't fly...", it would just confuse me. Over on man it seems to read better IMO. -- 72.252.56.171 20:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
/* Women's rights */ blanking - covered by "Culture and gender roles", linked from "see also", copy-paste form original article, we don't have "Men's right" in man. --2 September 2006 82.166.109.71
Why was the whole section stripped out, without discussion on this page. And, can we have something discussed on this page other than the photo edit war??? There have been similar sections on other languages' pages without challeng. Dogru144 00:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
However, many other common english customs, such as always listing males before females and always calling "God" (or a Higher Power) "He" distinctly ARE sexist. - This is inherently POV, even if it is right. For it even to be considered valid, there needs to be a discussion of how it is sexist, and what sexist means, which are unnecessary digressions. Moreover, the capitalised "ARE" is not encyclopedic. If this sentence is to remain, i.e., be rendered validly, and thus retain the point validly, it needs to be reformed to less pointed language. Encyclopedic articles are not supposed to be moral essays for exclaiming one's opinion on a contentious issue. Think of a dispassionate, curious reader seeking education, and not one who needs to be instructed in moral values. Rintrah 15:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that there are too many pictures at the end of this article? It kind of looks like just anyone can go put up a picture of themselves or their friends, as long as they are female, and in my opinion it renders the article somewhat trite. Besides, there are all these ethnographic-ish photos of "exotic" women (except for one or two exceptions), and a bunch of ordinary-looking snapshots of Western, white women, which creates an unbalanced effect. I would suggest that the photos be limited to one from any given culture or society. If we're trying to represent women here, there are better ways to do it. Any suggestions? rom a rin talk ] 18:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)