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Request of restoring previous name till consensus will be reached or at least not use of Poland!!!!! M.K. 12:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
No, that's not good. There were several persons named Wladyslaw Jagiello. Ambiguate names should be avoided. Maed 12:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
(The idea came from Francis Schonken and John Kenney. Of Poland seems to belong to the policy here. I would not fight against it. The regnal number has two alternatives, and therefore it is not good.)
In terms of the ordinal, I understand that there was another Wladyslaw II (although, if I recall correctly, he was only duke of Poland, not king, and thus should, under naming rules, be at Wladyslaw II, Duke of Poland, but there aren't any other "Wladyslaw II Jagiello"s, are there? The alternate numbering (V?) can be listed in the article, but I feel like the "II" is the more commonly used one. john k 14:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
John, there was another Vladislaus II Jagiello, the grandson of this man. He reigned in Hungary and Bohemia, but held also Polish-speaking provinces, particularly lands in Silesia. It is not out of the question that some may refer to him by "Wladyslaw II Jagiello". ObRoy 20:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
or to Wladyslaw Jagiello of Lithuania, King of Poland. Rationale: His regnal number of Poland varies in various sources, being either V or II. Lithuania is, for several reasons, an important element to be mentioned in his article name. ObRoy 14:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
or to Jagiello. Rationale as presented by Smec (see below).
to the original name but without confusing diatrics, also used by EB Wladyslaw II Jagiello
May I suggest Jagiello of Poland and Lithuania as a possible alternative? H Padleckas 02:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
He is quite often referred to as of Lithuania, because many settings of his life's important events benefit from it. When speaking of his marriage, he is mentioned as "of Lithuania" and Jadwiga is mentioned as "of Poland". Lithuania was also a kingdom at that time, its monarchs using the title "King of Lithuanians and Ruthenians". This guy needs that sort of special treatment in naming. ObRoy 14:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a ton of double and even triple redirects and misdirects now. This must be amended. But how can it be when the page title is not known? I propose that the monarch best known to English people as " Jagiello" be moved to that simple title. It ignores giving preference to either Poland or Lithuania. It ignores any ordinal. It ignores the Polish name he adopted. It is, I believe, a Polonisation of his Lithuanian name Jogaila and it is the name by which I believe most English people recognise the person. Therefore, why not use that simple one-word page title, which currently redirects to the Jagiellon dynasty. I believe most links to it, however, refer to the person, not the dynasty. I think that in this instance extenuating circumstances make the Manual of Style recommendations inapplicable, as in the case of Charlemagne. Srnec 17:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
If there is no obligation to use any of the country names, then I would very happily see this under the simple "Jagiello". I believe the man is best known by it, I would say that overwhelmingly best known. Jagiello as itself is based on the Polish variant of the name (not Latin, which is Jagello), but the name itself is the Lithuanian name. Both of those nations should feel sufficiently appeased by it. Of course not the diacritics, as this should be the English word and not the Polish. No country names to compete, or one of them to be excluded. Both excluded - none of these two countries preferred. And, for Wikipedia, the elegance of briefness. I am fed up with yet increasingly complex monsters... ObRoy 20:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Piotrus that before anything is done the article should be returned to the original name. This is very alarming that some users just go ahead and move stuff [1] around and others have to do a listing at WP:RM just to get the article back. What's a big deal to ask and propose at the talk before doing this? No one demands WP:RM listing each time but a courtesy proposal for others to comment should always be given in advance and discussion needs to be settled (except for totally trivial cases). Once it is returned, my favoured version is Wladyslaw II Jagiello or Wladyslaw Jagiello (see also this. -- Irpen 21:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I browsed through the talk archives of this article. No move has ever been accepted in a RM survey. Therefore all moves this has underwent, are equally suspect. The vote and the survey is continuing. Marrtel 22:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are some Google Books results:
I'm sure we all know how many hits "Władysław II Jagiełło" got.
I conclude that Jagiello, however "weird" it looks, wins the Google Books hitcounting beauty contest. On the other hand, the New Cambridge Medieval History uses Jogaila and so checking the books I have, do Davies and Bideleux. Bearing policy in mind, can any editors who happen to be passing a decent English-language library have a look ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Note that only Encarta uses diatrics, Columbia uses the latinized Ladislaus and Britannica, the only one with J.. uses Jagiello.
My personal choice of the three names is EB's one and also without diatrics. But before doing anything, the article needs returned to the name from which it was moved by a too bold user, se above. -- Irpen 23:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
How many more you need?
All above are the current editions. Before we do anything, the article needs returned to the original name. All names are arbitrary but the one it ended up with is a random one and this whole mess was started by whoever made the original undiscussed move. This whole mess created the history of the original redirect [4] and this entry needs deleted, the article returned and then discussion continued. Of all names, that one was at least the original one. The current one is just random. -- Irpen 00:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Google Printing
yelds some more, although the question is whether anything that call itself 'an encyclopedia' is really equal? On a sidenote, in addition to agreeing with Irpen that the move needs to be reverted I'd like to point out that
"Wladyslaw II Jagiellon" is completly unknown to Google Print (the single hit is a Polish publication which likely uses diactrics anyway).--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
Talk 00:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Jezus, Maryja! How's that for an entrance into this discussion! To the newcomers, or persons simply unaware: You Can Not Move Things Around At Random, especially with unresolved matters that are in dispute. When you do, we get into to a mess like we have presently. If I really, truthfully (without any bias), get back to the origin of this debate, I am beginning to think, Wladislaus II of Poland, makes the most sense. Hold it! Hold it! I know some are hoping for something else, from me, but here is my rationale. His name was Jogaila, He, made the decision to change his name to , Wladyslaw, long before there could be a debate about it, on Wikipedia. The previous, Wladyslaws, messing up the nunbering scheme were princes, ergo he gets the number, "II", as King. The Wladyslaw, is "anglicized" to Wladislaus, and we get, voila, Wladislaus II of Poland. He didn't leave Poland to become the Grand Duke of Lithuania, it was the other way around. If, and when this name of mine can be agreed upon, everyone can improve the article with all of the knowledge and information that they have about his origins, grandparents, and favorite food and color that he liked, etc., ect. Now why of Poland, you may ask? Simply, simplification! We don't say Henri IV, we say Henry IV of France (auf gut Englische) (sic). Lastly, and very important, the Jagiello, Jagiełło Question. Let's be honest (those of us that really know what's going on here), he never called himself Wladyslaw Jagiello. This is merely a designation, if you will, in Polish history. Just like "Chrobry" and "Smialy", for Boleslaw. Or the "Great" or the "Lion Hearted", in other contexts (maybe not so much Lionhearted, but you get my drift, I'm sure). Dr. Dan 00:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, My Brother, what does the destruction of Carthage have to do with Jogaila, or the price of soap in North Dakota? Dr. Dan 01:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought my above remarks are in line with your thinking. And I read the link before I made my observation. Dr. Dan 02:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this Solomonic Solution, is that neither ther Poles, nor the Lithuanians, want to divide Leah's baby, and every once in a while, the Belarusians "veto", the whole proceedure (kind of like they did in the U.N.), and say they are the true Litvins, and the object of our affection, Jahaila (sic), is a Belarusian, anyway. Dr. Dan 03:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it back to where it was before all this nonsense started, that is to [Władysław II Jagiełło]. — Nightst a llion (?) 05:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Request of restoring previous name till consensus will be reached or at least not use of Poland!!!!! M.K. 12:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
No, that's not good. There were several persons named Wladyslaw Jagiello. Ambiguate names should be avoided. Maed 12:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
(The idea came from Francis Schonken and John Kenney. Of Poland seems to belong to the policy here. I would not fight against it. The regnal number has two alternatives, and therefore it is not good.)
In terms of the ordinal, I understand that there was another Wladyslaw II (although, if I recall correctly, he was only duke of Poland, not king, and thus should, under naming rules, be at Wladyslaw II, Duke of Poland, but there aren't any other "Wladyslaw II Jagiello"s, are there? The alternate numbering (V?) can be listed in the article, but I feel like the "II" is the more commonly used one. john k 14:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
John, there was another Vladislaus II Jagiello, the grandson of this man. He reigned in Hungary and Bohemia, but held also Polish-speaking provinces, particularly lands in Silesia. It is not out of the question that some may refer to him by "Wladyslaw II Jagiello". ObRoy 20:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
or to Wladyslaw Jagiello of Lithuania, King of Poland. Rationale: His regnal number of Poland varies in various sources, being either V or II. Lithuania is, for several reasons, an important element to be mentioned in his article name. ObRoy 14:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
or to Jagiello. Rationale as presented by Smec (see below).
to the original name but without confusing diatrics, also used by EB Wladyslaw II Jagiello
May I suggest Jagiello of Poland and Lithuania as a possible alternative? H Padleckas 02:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
He is quite often referred to as of Lithuania, because many settings of his life's important events benefit from it. When speaking of his marriage, he is mentioned as "of Lithuania" and Jadwiga is mentioned as "of Poland". Lithuania was also a kingdom at that time, its monarchs using the title "King of Lithuanians and Ruthenians". This guy needs that sort of special treatment in naming. ObRoy 14:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a ton of double and even triple redirects and misdirects now. This must be amended. But how can it be when the page title is not known? I propose that the monarch best known to English people as " Jagiello" be moved to that simple title. It ignores giving preference to either Poland or Lithuania. It ignores any ordinal. It ignores the Polish name he adopted. It is, I believe, a Polonisation of his Lithuanian name Jogaila and it is the name by which I believe most English people recognise the person. Therefore, why not use that simple one-word page title, which currently redirects to the Jagiellon dynasty. I believe most links to it, however, refer to the person, not the dynasty. I think that in this instance extenuating circumstances make the Manual of Style recommendations inapplicable, as in the case of Charlemagne. Srnec 17:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
If there is no obligation to use any of the country names, then I would very happily see this under the simple "Jagiello". I believe the man is best known by it, I would say that overwhelmingly best known. Jagiello as itself is based on the Polish variant of the name (not Latin, which is Jagello), but the name itself is the Lithuanian name. Both of those nations should feel sufficiently appeased by it. Of course not the diacritics, as this should be the English word and not the Polish. No country names to compete, or one of them to be excluded. Both excluded - none of these two countries preferred. And, for Wikipedia, the elegance of briefness. I am fed up with yet increasingly complex monsters... ObRoy 20:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Piotrus that before anything is done the article should be returned to the original name. This is very alarming that some users just go ahead and move stuff [1] around and others have to do a listing at WP:RM just to get the article back. What's a big deal to ask and propose at the talk before doing this? No one demands WP:RM listing each time but a courtesy proposal for others to comment should always be given in advance and discussion needs to be settled (except for totally trivial cases). Once it is returned, my favoured version is Wladyslaw II Jagiello or Wladyslaw Jagiello (see also this. -- Irpen 21:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I browsed through the talk archives of this article. No move has ever been accepted in a RM survey. Therefore all moves this has underwent, are equally suspect. The vote and the survey is continuing. Marrtel 22:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are some Google Books results:
I'm sure we all know how many hits "Władysław II Jagiełło" got.
I conclude that Jagiello, however "weird" it looks, wins the Google Books hitcounting beauty contest. On the other hand, the New Cambridge Medieval History uses Jogaila and so checking the books I have, do Davies and Bideleux. Bearing policy in mind, can any editors who happen to be passing a decent English-language library have a look ? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Note that only Encarta uses diatrics, Columbia uses the latinized Ladislaus and Britannica, the only one with J.. uses Jagiello.
My personal choice of the three names is EB's one and also without diatrics. But before doing anything, the article needs returned to the name from which it was moved by a too bold user, se above. -- Irpen 23:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
How many more you need?
All above are the current editions. Before we do anything, the article needs returned to the original name. All names are arbitrary but the one it ended up with is a random one and this whole mess was started by whoever made the original undiscussed move. This whole mess created the history of the original redirect [4] and this entry needs deleted, the article returned and then discussion continued. Of all names, that one was at least the original one. The current one is just random. -- Irpen 00:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Google Printing
yelds some more, although the question is whether anything that call itself 'an encyclopedia' is really equal? On a sidenote, in addition to agreeing with Irpen that the move needs to be reverted I'd like to point out that
"Wladyslaw II Jagiellon" is completly unknown to Google Print (the single hit is a Polish publication which likely uses diactrics anyway).--
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
Talk 00:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Jezus, Maryja! How's that for an entrance into this discussion! To the newcomers, or persons simply unaware: You Can Not Move Things Around At Random, especially with unresolved matters that are in dispute. When you do, we get into to a mess like we have presently. If I really, truthfully (without any bias), get back to the origin of this debate, I am beginning to think, Wladislaus II of Poland, makes the most sense. Hold it! Hold it! I know some are hoping for something else, from me, but here is my rationale. His name was Jogaila, He, made the decision to change his name to , Wladyslaw, long before there could be a debate about it, on Wikipedia. The previous, Wladyslaws, messing up the nunbering scheme were princes, ergo he gets the number, "II", as King. The Wladyslaw, is "anglicized" to Wladislaus, and we get, voila, Wladislaus II of Poland. He didn't leave Poland to become the Grand Duke of Lithuania, it was the other way around. If, and when this name of mine can be agreed upon, everyone can improve the article with all of the knowledge and information that they have about his origins, grandparents, and favorite food and color that he liked, etc., ect. Now why of Poland, you may ask? Simply, simplification! We don't say Henri IV, we say Henry IV of France (auf gut Englische) (sic). Lastly, and very important, the Jagiello, Jagiełło Question. Let's be honest (those of us that really know what's going on here), he never called himself Wladyslaw Jagiello. This is merely a designation, if you will, in Polish history. Just like "Chrobry" and "Smialy", for Boleslaw. Or the "Great" or the "Lion Hearted", in other contexts (maybe not so much Lionhearted, but you get my drift, I'm sure). Dr. Dan 00:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Irpen, My Brother, what does the destruction of Carthage have to do with Jogaila, or the price of soap in North Dakota? Dr. Dan 01:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought my above remarks are in line with your thinking. And I read the link before I made my observation. Dr. Dan 02:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with this Solomonic Solution, is that neither ther Poles, nor the Lithuanians, want to divide Leah's baby, and every once in a while, the Belarusians "veto", the whole proceedure (kind of like they did in the U.N.), and say they are the true Litvins, and the object of our affection, Jahaila (sic), is a Belarusian, anyway. Dr. Dan 03:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it back to where it was before all this nonsense started, that is to [Władysław II Jagiełło]. — Nightst a llion (?) 05:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)