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This section seems a little confused and mixed up. There's no delineations between entries that are talking about unambiguously "white" populations (generally the result of colonialism), versus arguments that some peoples are descended from European populations in antiquity (though they have been in whatever non-European area they are now in for centuries, or even millennia), or occasionally ones that just seem to be arguing that the people should be considered white, particularly some recent edits from a topic-banned user. Now, I'm not suggesting that any of these shouldn't be in the article, though we do have to be wary of OR (is a statement that they are descended from speakers of proto-indo-european really evidence of anything? Language-wise, Indian languages are descended from proto-indo-european; the clue is in the 'indo' part). It would just improve the clarity to readers if these ideas weren't conflated. So, thoughts on this matter, before I get bold in machete-style? SamBC( talk) 23:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I am filing that as vandalism, as everything was cited, etc. Put it back within 24 hours, and I won't. Whoever has done it, put it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Lol, I'll be more specific. I mean, whoever vandalized Afghanistan and pakistan, and all of the middle east except for israel. This is vandalism as all of the works were cited, and everything was reliable. Someone just deleted all of the work. Please undo what you have done, whoever has done it! --Metalman59 21:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs)
@Sambc. Everything was cited properly, and nothing was put to doubt. The article is not headed european, but Caucasion. Your views aren't keeping this article neutral, and I will have to file you for vandalism if you don't revert the article. My rationale being that you seem to only want to put your pov of white as european in the article. The US census states middle easterns as white, and everything, and the website was cited properly. Please revert.--Metalman59 22:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs)
I don’t really want to get that involved with this page, but may I propose that the whole “European-descended peoples” section be either greatly reduced to those areas of colonial settlement by Europeans in the Americas, Australia, Africa and Siberia, or just completely taken out? I feel like the whole section just causes POV wars (over whether white=European, as we see above, and other issues). Yes, I was the one who removed the Middle East section. I did so because the Middle East in particular is a very contentious area, and I think its best that we not take any side on it at all…
I’ll go further to use race in the Middle East and Mediterranean as an example of the bizarre conundrum. Most scholarly literature places most Middle Easterners, North Africans and certain Mediterranean groups (Italians or Greeks, for example) together. All have generally “Caucasoid” facial features with skin that was on average considerably darker than that of more northerly Europeans. For the most part this Mediterranean/Middle Eastern appearance was considered one type of Caucasoid, a group also including Europeans. For the most part this classification continued until the modern day (I mentioned Jared Diamond, there are many other examples as well, including the US Census). However, when identity politics come in, funny things happen, and different groups frantically try to affirm that Middle Easterners are either definitely white or definitely not white generally for other (perhaps subconscious) reasons. For example, here are some claims I have heard (and some I have heard of), based on who makes them, and what lies behind those claims (sometimes explicit, sometimes not):
An Arab American who is very proud of their Arab heritage: Arabs are non-white, and are victims of internalized self-repression and have deceived themselves into thinking they are white in order to fit into American society. In fact they are victims of racial profiling, but because they are viewed as whites, they are denied this consideration. [this is obviously a well-intentioned attempt to draw more attention to discrimination of Middle Eastern Americans by making parallels to African Americans, but if this is taken seriously, that Arabs are a different race, doesn’t that mean Italians and Greeks aren’t white either? My friend’s dark-skinned Italian father who has a large beard was once given problems at an airport]
An Armenian: The Middle East, the cradle of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, should not be separated from Europe, especially for often “European-looking” Lebanese and Armenians [I note how special attention was drawn to Middle Eastern Christians here, but not to the Turks or Kurds, who aren’t noticeably darker, if not lighter, than Armenians and Lebanese]
“Euro-nationalist” who believes in Europe’s Christian heritage: Middle Easterners, especially Muslim Middle-Easterners cannot possibly be white, and neither are Albanians or Bosniaks, despite being European peoples [but Muslim].
Russian race slang: identifies not only Middle Easterners and North Africans, but also Mediterranean Europeans, Caucasians (I mean inhabitants of the Caucasus) and certain Central Asians (those that aren’t Mongoloid) as for “black”. As for those who are called “black” in English (sub-Saharan Africans), they get much more insulting names that don’t need posting here. [I find it quite ironic that Caucasians, who gave the Caucasian race its name, somehow aren’t white now…]
A secular Israeli Jew, an Ashkenazi but a rather dark one: Middle Easterners are white, and any attempt to say they aren’t is anti-Semitism. (I infer, if used by Europeans, to demean Jews by saying they are inferior; if used by Arabs combined with these Arabs also saying that Israeli Jews are white, racist against Jews by denying them their Middle Eastern heritage and labeling them as European colonizers)
An African American who deeply abhors the actions by Sudan in Darfur: All Arabs, Middle Eastern or not are by definition are white. Sudan is therefore committing racist, white supremacist genocide [and by the way I agreed with their view on the conflict, but I didn’t think it was necessary to incessantly point out the whiteness of Arabs, especially since many Sudanese Arabs infact intermingled with black Africans in the past…].
Sorry this post is super long, but some ending thoughts: yes its true many Middle Easterners are dark-skinned (if we compare them to Swedes, not really if we compare them to Greeks, and certainly not if we compare them to Somalis). Like all peoples, they are heterogenous- there are blond Kurds and Palestinians (
Bashar al-Assad is one well-known Syrian with blue eyes) swarthy Germans, and its far from impossible from finding an Arab of lighter than an Englishman. On the other hand, you could also probably find a Arab (a Yemeni, perhaps) who is darker than the Somalis on the other side of the Red Sea. That being said, whether white is limited to European-origin groups is controversial, and it really depends on its usage and context. Wikipedia shouldn’t take any stance on this issue. This doesn’t only apply to the Middle East, but also potentially to Central Asia (where the ‘native’ population is mixed and hard to place) as well as North Africa (which has similar issues to the Middle East). The section at the bottom should only be for European post-colonial groups- as there isn’t any controversy over these… it’ll be better for all of us.
(wow, how’d I get a post this long…well I hope you guys read it all…)--
Yalens (
talk)
01:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Well said, that was a very nice explanation. The only thing is, could you somehow put it into the article? I mean, that would be a very nice contribution, and would not be out of place. I am on a topic ban, so I cannot write it, but your explanation would help tremendously. --Metalman59 18:40, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Just look at the section for Puerto Rico and then read this article:
...................... See: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/30/latino.native.american/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2
From there I cut and pasted this:
But Maynard had long been taught that Taíno Indians, the indigenous people of Puerto Rico, were "gone, dead and buried" for centuries, decimated by Spaniards who arrived on the island in the 16th century.
and this:
Four years ago, Maynard heard about the work of Dr. Juan Carlos Martinez Cruzado, a geneticist from the University of Puerto Rico. In an island-wide genetic study, he found that at least 61.1% of those surveyed had mitochondrial DNA of indigenous origin. .........................
The majority of the people of Puerto Rico are mainly mixed. Mixed people are the majority in the Americas, probably even in the United States. It is a shame that people continue ignoring or denying their own blood. John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.202.64 ( talk) 01:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Please add the {{Commons category|White people}}
to the article. 31.210.177.165 ( talk)
I would say to you that WP:NOTFORUM. And to know to read scholarly books and common word usage between majority of people and its scholars. as it would be as much as word that exists as "lulzy" exists in the popular internet meme based community. meaning, the word is made up and dont exist. since dictionaries that fail to record what the majority of scholars and non scholars usagage of words is used and not just some slang that "lulzy" is(and yes that word does appear in a dictionary in some countries, it certainly is not common on avarage and certainly not scholar, so no it does not exists but rather is more akin to a popular psuedo intelligent neogolism)such you doing psuedo intelligent made up word that dont exist acording to grammar based language. You also lost the argument. so yes there is no reason to support your way of putting things into the article for balance — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.3.9 ( talk) 10:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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This is highly racist, please use the proper term. This is not acceptable.-- 60.242.71.160 ( talk) 08:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, its Caucasian, or just European, that's the correct term, not sub-melan, whatever. Now your being prejudiced and racist, i think. 140.198.45.63 ( talk) 01:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm white European and I find the term "caucasian" to be insulting and inaccurate. It is not a proper term at all, but based on dodgy Victorian pseudo-science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.148.225 ( talk) 02:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the following here for work to bring into compliance with WP:NOENG:
This was cited in two places in the article, apparently to support the following assertions in the Chile section:
Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT A RACISM! It's an important question: Were they "White" ? Böri ( talk) 14:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Use of the term "Caucasian race" as a secondary name for "White people" is not accurate, as there are people of color that are classified as Caucasians. As stated in the article of the same name, "Historically, the term has been used to describe many peoples [...], without regard necessarily to skin tone." -- Valce Talk 03:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I fixed it. FonsScientiae ( talk) 14:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
This article continuously confuses the terms and definitions of 'white' and 'European'. Not every white people is European, and not every European is white. FonsScientiae ( talk) 14:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The articles of every other race has a collage of faces of recognizable or famous examplesof that race. Why not in this article? Thelostrealist513 ( talk) 01:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Ever since I knew, I never thought about 'black' or 'white' as terms for "race"; in the part of world where I grew up and live, concepts of race are seldom used and almost never in confusion with
skin color. When I started editing human skin related articles I found it strange that there was article for
olive skin but no articles for black and white (by which most people colloquially refer to dark and light skin). Reliable sources support that the terms 'black' and 'white' are used for people who have dark-coloured skin and light-coloured skin and that they are encyclopedic topics and global terms. (Black:
1: "any human group having dark-coloured skin" ,
2: "various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin" ,
3: "any of various dark-skinned peoples"; [
4]: "having skin of a dark color"; White:
5: "having light-coloured skin",
6: "marked by slight pigmentation of the skin"
7: "having little skin pigmentation")
Clearly, these articles deal with another topic,
race, which is (in some parts of the world) also referred to as 'black' and 'white' (I still have to see a reliable source defining it so), even if the terms are independent of skin color.
I realize that some of you may find the words 'black' and 'white' offensive for describing skin color, just as i find black and white offensive for description of "human races"; because of this, and because terms 'black' and 'white' are very often used to describe skin color , as synonyms for dark and light skin, (as shown above) disambiguation is necessary for these terms. Different meanings of the same words, ’black’ and ’white’ will have to redirect either to the neutral human skin color article or to the racial classification article.
As for what exact new name we should use for the racial articles doesn’t matter as far as it makes the distinction between skin color and concept of race. I can image titles like "black (racial classification)", or "black people (racial classification)" but I'm really indifferent towards the titles and you are welcomed to propose better names.
FonsScientiae (
talk)
14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Editors on this page are invited to participate in/weigh-in on whether or not this article and its companion black people wikipage are intended for the discussion of the race-based "white" and "black" social categories/constructs, respectively, or whether they are soley meant to discuss skin color. Whatever consensus is reached there could have implications on the entire future direction of both articles, so participation is strongly encouraged. Soupforone ( talk) 21:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
While true to an extent, your suggestion that "white people" and "black people" as race-based social categories/constructs differ from area to area is somewhat beside the point and a little overstated. The authorities in France indeed officially do not collect ethnographic information on its residents. However, this political decision is a source of controversy within that country, and it does not negate the fact that most locals there still recognize "white", "black" and other 'races' at the pedestrian level. Whether such distinctions do in fact exist biologically is another matter; but they're certainly there in a social sense. I'm also not sure where you got the idea that racial classification is nonexistent in Australia since the country effectively had a White Australia policy for over half a century. This racial policy intentionally restricted non-'white'/European immigration, and was in practice mainly aimed at East Asians (many of whom actually have skin as light as or sometimes lighter than the average European).
"White skin" and "Black skin" redirect to this article and the "Black people" article, respectively, for the same reason that White race and Black race redirect to those same respective wikipages: they are terms of relevance.
Moreover, the definitions you cite are just a few of many. That same Merriam Webster link alone, for example, also equates "black" with being "swarthy" and "having dark skin, hair, and eyes", using the " Black Irish" as an example. It further cites a considerably more restricted, United States-centric alternative definition of "black" that focuses on African-Americans: "of or relating to the African-American people or their culture <black literature>".
Historically, the dominant (though not only) definition of "black people", as held by both white and black people in America and Europe alike, was as a synonym for "Negroid": "In America, as in Europe, when white or black people thought, wrote, or spoke of black people, meaning the black race, they meant the people who were understood to be Negroes; that is, people with "Negroid" features, such as black skin, kinky hair, broad noses, thick lips, and rounded behinds. Racism was involved here, to which even precursor Black historians acceded." [9]
WP:WEIGHT states that articles should cite views in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. The idea that Australian Aborigines or Dravidians, among others, are "black people" is - though certainly in circulation as a meme in some quarters - definitely not prominent. This was made clear on the fringe noticeboard discussion.
What was also made clear in that conversation is that the white people and black people articles were originally meant to discuss the race-based "white" and "black" social categories/constructs. One need only look at the Category:Race (human classification) featured on both articles to see that this is indeed the case. Soupforone ( talk) 21:35, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
""wrong analogy"" I believe the complete argument is roaming around one man's ideology of terming Dravidians as "black people" I believe we should talk particular to India and not go to Australia , US or any other country for any anology as the word "Dravidian" is only represented in India,
First of all Indian society was deferentiated by crude caste system and not by there skin tone unlike other countries. there has never existed in society or religously or any other kind of manner deferentiating dravidians in India as black , terming them blacks will give wrong notion to the researchers of wiki articles who would confuse the term to the "black people" in general.
If dravidians are being termed black due to there slight black tone , why not people form indonesia, singapore , brazil , .. it makes no sence to have blackness scale for skin tone to term a ethnicity as "Black people" . I think the whole idea has to be dropped as India never had or is having any racial descrimination pertaining to skin tone. Shrikanthv ( talk) 13:40, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
There are various problems with your argument, but the main one is overlooking the fact that the term "black people" has for the most part been considered as essentially a synonym for "Negroid". This is true of both so-called black and white communities in the Americas and Europe alike; the link I produced earlier makes this clear. By contrast, none of the passages you picked out address what is or has historically been the most common global usage of the term "black people". They just give a few alternative modern definitions, some of which actually contradict each other (for instance, "Black Irish" vs. "of or relating to the African-American people or their culture"). Here again are the most common meanings of the social terms "black" and "white" when applied to human groups: "Knowability of racial categories is one of the myths of race. Racial categories have been taught as if the categories Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid had scientific bases. Today, the scientific terminology has changed to "Black," "White" and "Asian". Social categories of race have grown to include "ethnic" racial groupings, including what is usually referred to as "Hispanic." But what of Pacific Islanders? Are they a racial group or an ethnic group? And what of South Asians? Undoubtedly our categories expand to serve social and political needs." [10]
Three different editors now have indicated that: 1) This article and/or its companion black people wikipage are on race-based social categories/constructs. 2) While in some circles the term "black people" may include far-flung groups like Dravidians or Australian Aborigines, this is not the term's predominant usage globally. On this point, Paul B on the fringe noticeboard discussion wrote that "More recently some African-American writers have tried to construct a model of an "African diaspora", which includes any people deemed "black", in their view: which fact somehow makes them part of an African diaspora (even though everyonme is part of an Afican diaspora; if you are going to argue that people who happen to be dark skinned in Australia or India are part of it, you may as well argue that Norwegians are part of it)". Similarly, Shrikanthv has indicated above that "If dravidians are being termed black due to there slight black tone , why not people form indonesia, singapore , brazil , .. it makes no sence to have blackness scale for skin tone to term a ethnicity as "Black people"".
While the options you've just presented are appreciated, they aren't particularly necessary since a Color terminology for race article already exists for that purpose. Please now give other editors a chance to share their view/comment as per the process. We're almost at a rough consensus, but I'd still like to hear more opinions. Soupforone ( talk) 21:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
While I don't feel as much of a crisis about the issue as expressed here, I want reaffirm that Human skin color seems to be the best place to talk about "white skin" and "black skin." It's very hard to mentally separate our (social) categories of people from the assigned color. Indeed, the term "black skin" refers to a range of browns precisely because of social status. Similarly, some people with deep tan skin are regarded as having "tanned white skin" while others are regarded as having (untanned) "brown skin" (and that distinction varies by geographic location as well). I would strongly suggest developing human skin color with added specifics about different parts of the color range well before creating any new pages, reserving new pages for the possibility that information gets overly detailed there, per WP:SUMMARY.-- Carwil ( talk) 20:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I've deleted all the fuzzy regions bordering Europe in the bottom list. First of all, I don't see why we need to have that thing anyways, but that's beside the point. The point is that the "whiteness" of the inhabitants of those regions is often subject to context, personal opinions, and so on, and so you can't just draw a firm boundary on which groups are "white" in those regions and which aren't. European-descended= white is not universally accepted so it cannot be used. It can, however, be used in the colonial context, where "white" is used to refer to the human remnants of colonial rule, as in sub-Saharan Africa, the Americas, Southeast Asia and Oceania. That isn't disputed, so I left that. Wikipedia should only make statements where there is consensus on terms that are widely used in all contexts, not only in some.-- Yalens ( talk) 02:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
There are no official statistics about ethnicity in Sweden, and the source to Sweden's numbers on the list imply that immigrants can't be of white decent. I therefore think Sweden should be removed from the list until a better source can be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nordanvind ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Can we get an approximate amount of people identified as white living in the world as compared to other races? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.218.176.223 ( talk) 14:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I dont know why an user keep reverting this... Last year in Venezuela there were the XIV Census, where it showed for the very first time in this century the ethnicity of Venezuela, so that's why I added it. It is more reliable than the source of the "Britannica Online Encyclopedia", so why keeping reverting this into a not very accurate source? So, added an OFFICIAL SOURCE from the 2011 Venezuelan Census. The "Britannica Online Encyclopedia" is not anymore a reliable source for this case, since there is a recent and OFFICIAL result of the Venezuelan Ethnicity. The results of the Official 2011 Venezuelan Census showed that 42,2% of the population are white (of the 27,227,930 inhabitants, the source are from the Government "Instituto Nacional de Estadistica" ( INE) ... and the document from that report you can find it in the pg. 14 of this link Official Census 2011 - Venezuela. Also the University of Brasilia did a research where the result was that 60,6% of the population in Venezuela were from European (white) ancestry. "O impacto das migrações na constituição genética de populações latino-americanas"
So those are more reliable source than that one from the "Britannica Online Encyclopedia", that encyclopedia didnt even do studies/research about the ethnicity in Venezuela, so why that's more reliable than the official ones?, also it's old and not very accurate -- Pankoroku ( talk) 06:22, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Sorry but you are speaking of coloured people in venezuela there aren't 42.2% white persons... i think there don't are even 10% because it's normal it's like in colombia or the countries around there... — Preceding unsigned comment added by HardstyleGB ( talk • contribs) 00:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Where is Spain in your list of regions with white population?
Unfortunately, due to the role of European populations in the New world and the kind of societies that they created, with "whites" on the top of the social ladder, there is a strong bias against other "races". It is even sad that people deny their own roots and blood. In the US, most of the population have non-European, if you like, non-White blood. Even those who call themselves white are the result of a strong ethnic intermixing, just with predominant European ancestors, but from many distinct European nations and some non-European ancestry. In Latin American the Native American background is still predominant. The myth of the extinction of the Amerindians by the Spanish is a myth supported by ignorance and diverse types of propaganda. It is a shame that the descendants of the brave Native Americans (who in many cases share ohter ancestries, manly European) feel shame of their own blood. Even in the Caribbean, where so much ignorance and simplistic scholarship has been produced on this matter, most of the population are still of substantial Native American ancestry. An encyclopeadia like this should not be used to maintain and reproduce ignorance, especially when this ignorance is the result of very racist conceptions based on a past European colonial past. I could flood this page with articles based on actual DNA research about the Americas, from Alaska to Patagonia. Here is just one example from Puerto Rico, while according to the Wiki article most people are of "white" ancestry, and not of mixed ancestry, which is the real type of population for the entire American Continent:
http://www.centrelink.org/KearnsDNA.html
I feel ashamed when I see articles like this. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 15:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Is this source reliable?
Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 00:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, then even if we are all half Indians we will deny it and that is fine. Let us fill articles with it. As to the US situation, I mean that the mixed category is actually the largest: almost 20 per cent of the population is Hispanic (most of mixed ancestry) about 15 per cent Black (Only white admixture ranges to up to 20 per cent on average) 1/3 of whites have non-European ancestries as well, even those who are of "pure' European origin" are the result of the admixture of multiple European ethnicities. This article should be called: Peoples who want to pass as majority white. Anyway, this is my two pence. I am not wasting any more time on this article. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 01:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Could someone capable of it please remove "Germany" from the section "Regions with significant populations"? Neither do the links given in the footnotes contain the figure "71,900,000" or say anything about skin color, nor is there official census data about ethnicity available for Germany. The only figures available (and cited in the footnotes) are concerning immigration or "migration background", with doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ethnicity. So I'm in favour of deleting Germany from that list. 93.228.64.244 ( talk) 21:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I just saw that someone marked several countries with "original research?" and that Sweden has been excluded from that list some time ago. As I see it, the only countries that have statistics regarding ethnicity are the USA, Brazil, England, Scotland, Wales, South Africa and Venezuela. I'm not sure whether the data provided for Chile can be called "official census data". I strongly recommend to remove all other countries. 93.220.224.185 ( talk) 13:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
There is no reference to "Europeans" in the Aristotle's book, only to "women", so the quoted text is shamefully distorted in the article!
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | → | Archive 28 |
This section seems a little confused and mixed up. There's no delineations between entries that are talking about unambiguously "white" populations (generally the result of colonialism), versus arguments that some peoples are descended from European populations in antiquity (though they have been in whatever non-European area they are now in for centuries, or even millennia), or occasionally ones that just seem to be arguing that the people should be considered white, particularly some recent edits from a topic-banned user. Now, I'm not suggesting that any of these shouldn't be in the article, though we do have to be wary of OR (is a statement that they are descended from speakers of proto-indo-european really evidence of anything? Language-wise, Indian languages are descended from proto-indo-european; the clue is in the 'indo' part). It would just improve the clarity to readers if these ideas weren't conflated. So, thoughts on this matter, before I get bold in machete-style? SamBC( talk) 23:49, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I am filing that as vandalism, as everything was cited, etc. Put it back within 24 hours, and I won't. Whoever has done it, put it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Lol, I'll be more specific. I mean, whoever vandalized Afghanistan and pakistan, and all of the middle east except for israel. This is vandalism as all of the works were cited, and everything was reliable. Someone just deleted all of the work. Please undo what you have done, whoever has done it! --Metalman59 21:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs)
@Sambc. Everything was cited properly, and nothing was put to doubt. The article is not headed european, but Caucasion. Your views aren't keeping this article neutral, and I will have to file you for vandalism if you don't revert the article. My rationale being that you seem to only want to put your pov of white as european in the article. The US census states middle easterns as white, and everything, and the website was cited properly. Please revert.--Metalman59 22:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 ( talk • contribs)
I don’t really want to get that involved with this page, but may I propose that the whole “European-descended peoples” section be either greatly reduced to those areas of colonial settlement by Europeans in the Americas, Australia, Africa and Siberia, or just completely taken out? I feel like the whole section just causes POV wars (over whether white=European, as we see above, and other issues). Yes, I was the one who removed the Middle East section. I did so because the Middle East in particular is a very contentious area, and I think its best that we not take any side on it at all…
I’ll go further to use race in the Middle East and Mediterranean as an example of the bizarre conundrum. Most scholarly literature places most Middle Easterners, North Africans and certain Mediterranean groups (Italians or Greeks, for example) together. All have generally “Caucasoid” facial features with skin that was on average considerably darker than that of more northerly Europeans. For the most part this Mediterranean/Middle Eastern appearance was considered one type of Caucasoid, a group also including Europeans. For the most part this classification continued until the modern day (I mentioned Jared Diamond, there are many other examples as well, including the US Census). However, when identity politics come in, funny things happen, and different groups frantically try to affirm that Middle Easterners are either definitely white or definitely not white generally for other (perhaps subconscious) reasons. For example, here are some claims I have heard (and some I have heard of), based on who makes them, and what lies behind those claims (sometimes explicit, sometimes not):
An Arab American who is very proud of their Arab heritage: Arabs are non-white, and are victims of internalized self-repression and have deceived themselves into thinking they are white in order to fit into American society. In fact they are victims of racial profiling, but because they are viewed as whites, they are denied this consideration. [this is obviously a well-intentioned attempt to draw more attention to discrimination of Middle Eastern Americans by making parallels to African Americans, but if this is taken seriously, that Arabs are a different race, doesn’t that mean Italians and Greeks aren’t white either? My friend’s dark-skinned Italian father who has a large beard was once given problems at an airport]
An Armenian: The Middle East, the cradle of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, should not be separated from Europe, especially for often “European-looking” Lebanese and Armenians [I note how special attention was drawn to Middle Eastern Christians here, but not to the Turks or Kurds, who aren’t noticeably darker, if not lighter, than Armenians and Lebanese]
“Euro-nationalist” who believes in Europe’s Christian heritage: Middle Easterners, especially Muslim Middle-Easterners cannot possibly be white, and neither are Albanians or Bosniaks, despite being European peoples [but Muslim].
Russian race slang: identifies not only Middle Easterners and North Africans, but also Mediterranean Europeans, Caucasians (I mean inhabitants of the Caucasus) and certain Central Asians (those that aren’t Mongoloid) as for “black”. As for those who are called “black” in English (sub-Saharan Africans), they get much more insulting names that don’t need posting here. [I find it quite ironic that Caucasians, who gave the Caucasian race its name, somehow aren’t white now…]
A secular Israeli Jew, an Ashkenazi but a rather dark one: Middle Easterners are white, and any attempt to say they aren’t is anti-Semitism. (I infer, if used by Europeans, to demean Jews by saying they are inferior; if used by Arabs combined with these Arabs also saying that Israeli Jews are white, racist against Jews by denying them their Middle Eastern heritage and labeling them as European colonizers)
An African American who deeply abhors the actions by Sudan in Darfur: All Arabs, Middle Eastern or not are by definition are white. Sudan is therefore committing racist, white supremacist genocide [and by the way I agreed with their view on the conflict, but I didn’t think it was necessary to incessantly point out the whiteness of Arabs, especially since many Sudanese Arabs infact intermingled with black Africans in the past…].
Sorry this post is super long, but some ending thoughts: yes its true many Middle Easterners are dark-skinned (if we compare them to Swedes, not really if we compare them to Greeks, and certainly not if we compare them to Somalis). Like all peoples, they are heterogenous- there are blond Kurds and Palestinians (
Bashar al-Assad is one well-known Syrian with blue eyes) swarthy Germans, and its far from impossible from finding an Arab of lighter than an Englishman. On the other hand, you could also probably find a Arab (a Yemeni, perhaps) who is darker than the Somalis on the other side of the Red Sea. That being said, whether white is limited to European-origin groups is controversial, and it really depends on its usage and context. Wikipedia shouldn’t take any stance on this issue. This doesn’t only apply to the Middle East, but also potentially to Central Asia (where the ‘native’ population is mixed and hard to place) as well as North Africa (which has similar issues to the Middle East). The section at the bottom should only be for European post-colonial groups- as there isn’t any controversy over these… it’ll be better for all of us.
(wow, how’d I get a post this long…well I hope you guys read it all…)--
Yalens (
talk)
01:38, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Well said, that was a very nice explanation. The only thing is, could you somehow put it into the article? I mean, that would be a very nice contribution, and would not be out of place. I am on a topic ban, so I cannot write it, but your explanation would help tremendously. --Metalman59 18:40, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Just look at the section for Puerto Rico and then read this article:
...................... See: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/30/latino.native.american/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2
From there I cut and pasted this:
But Maynard had long been taught that Taíno Indians, the indigenous people of Puerto Rico, were "gone, dead and buried" for centuries, decimated by Spaniards who arrived on the island in the 16th century.
and this:
Four years ago, Maynard heard about the work of Dr. Juan Carlos Martinez Cruzado, a geneticist from the University of Puerto Rico. In an island-wide genetic study, he found that at least 61.1% of those surveyed had mitochondrial DNA of indigenous origin. .........................
The majority of the people of Puerto Rico are mainly mixed. Mixed people are the majority in the Americas, probably even in the United States. It is a shame that people continue ignoring or denying their own blood. John. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.202.64 ( talk) 01:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Please add the {{Commons category|White people}}
to the article. 31.210.177.165 ( talk)
I would say to you that WP:NOTFORUM. And to know to read scholarly books and common word usage between majority of people and its scholars. as it would be as much as word that exists as "lulzy" exists in the popular internet meme based community. meaning, the word is made up and dont exist. since dictionaries that fail to record what the majority of scholars and non scholars usagage of words is used and not just some slang that "lulzy" is(and yes that word does appear in a dictionary in some countries, it certainly is not common on avarage and certainly not scholar, so no it does not exists but rather is more akin to a popular psuedo intelligent neogolism)such you doing psuedo intelligent made up word that dont exist acording to grammar based language. You also lost the argument. so yes there is no reason to support your way of putting things into the article for balance — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.3.9 ( talk) 10:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
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This is highly racist, please use the proper term. This is not acceptable.-- 60.242.71.160 ( talk) 08:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Actually, its Caucasian, or just European, that's the correct term, not sub-melan, whatever. Now your being prejudiced and racist, i think. 140.198.45.63 ( talk) 01:45, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm white European and I find the term "caucasian" to be insulting and inaccurate. It is not a proper term at all, but based on dodgy Victorian pseudo-science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.77.148.225 ( talk) 02:32, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the following here for work to bring into compliance with WP:NOENG:
This was cited in two places in the article, apparently to support the following assertions in the Chile section:
Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
THIS IS NOT A RACISM! It's an important question: Were they "White" ? Böri ( talk) 14:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Use of the term "Caucasian race" as a secondary name for "White people" is not accurate, as there are people of color that are classified as Caucasians. As stated in the article of the same name, "Historically, the term has been used to describe many peoples [...], without regard necessarily to skin tone." -- Valce Talk 03:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
I fixed it. FonsScientiae ( talk) 14:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
This article continuously confuses the terms and definitions of 'white' and 'European'. Not every white people is European, and not every European is white. FonsScientiae ( talk) 14:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
The articles of every other race has a collage of faces of recognizable or famous examplesof that race. Why not in this article? Thelostrealist513 ( talk) 01:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Ever since I knew, I never thought about 'black' or 'white' as terms for "race"; in the part of world where I grew up and live, concepts of race are seldom used and almost never in confusion with
skin color. When I started editing human skin related articles I found it strange that there was article for
olive skin but no articles for black and white (by which most people colloquially refer to dark and light skin). Reliable sources support that the terms 'black' and 'white' are used for people who have dark-coloured skin and light-coloured skin and that they are encyclopedic topics and global terms. (Black:
1: "any human group having dark-coloured skin" ,
2: "various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin" ,
3: "any of various dark-skinned peoples"; [
4]: "having skin of a dark color"; White:
5: "having light-coloured skin",
6: "marked by slight pigmentation of the skin"
7: "having little skin pigmentation")
Clearly, these articles deal with another topic,
race, which is (in some parts of the world) also referred to as 'black' and 'white' (I still have to see a reliable source defining it so), even if the terms are independent of skin color.
I realize that some of you may find the words 'black' and 'white' offensive for describing skin color, just as i find black and white offensive for description of "human races"; because of this, and because terms 'black' and 'white' are very often used to describe skin color , as synonyms for dark and light skin, (as shown above) disambiguation is necessary for these terms. Different meanings of the same words, ’black’ and ’white’ will have to redirect either to the neutral human skin color article or to the racial classification article.
As for what exact new name we should use for the racial articles doesn’t matter as far as it makes the distinction between skin color and concept of race. I can image titles like "black (racial classification)", or "black people (racial classification)" but I'm really indifferent towards the titles and you are welcomed to propose better names.
FonsScientiae (
talk)
14:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Editors on this page are invited to participate in/weigh-in on whether or not this article and its companion black people wikipage are intended for the discussion of the race-based "white" and "black" social categories/constructs, respectively, or whether they are soley meant to discuss skin color. Whatever consensus is reached there could have implications on the entire future direction of both articles, so participation is strongly encouraged. Soupforone ( talk) 21:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
While true to an extent, your suggestion that "white people" and "black people" as race-based social categories/constructs differ from area to area is somewhat beside the point and a little overstated. The authorities in France indeed officially do not collect ethnographic information on its residents. However, this political decision is a source of controversy within that country, and it does not negate the fact that most locals there still recognize "white", "black" and other 'races' at the pedestrian level. Whether such distinctions do in fact exist biologically is another matter; but they're certainly there in a social sense. I'm also not sure where you got the idea that racial classification is nonexistent in Australia since the country effectively had a White Australia policy for over half a century. This racial policy intentionally restricted non-'white'/European immigration, and was in practice mainly aimed at East Asians (many of whom actually have skin as light as or sometimes lighter than the average European).
"White skin" and "Black skin" redirect to this article and the "Black people" article, respectively, for the same reason that White race and Black race redirect to those same respective wikipages: they are terms of relevance.
Moreover, the definitions you cite are just a few of many. That same Merriam Webster link alone, for example, also equates "black" with being "swarthy" and "having dark skin, hair, and eyes", using the " Black Irish" as an example. It further cites a considerably more restricted, United States-centric alternative definition of "black" that focuses on African-Americans: "of or relating to the African-American people or their culture <black literature>".
Historically, the dominant (though not only) definition of "black people", as held by both white and black people in America and Europe alike, was as a synonym for "Negroid": "In America, as in Europe, when white or black people thought, wrote, or spoke of black people, meaning the black race, they meant the people who were understood to be Negroes; that is, people with "Negroid" features, such as black skin, kinky hair, broad noses, thick lips, and rounded behinds. Racism was involved here, to which even precursor Black historians acceded." [9]
WP:WEIGHT states that articles should cite views in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. The idea that Australian Aborigines or Dravidians, among others, are "black people" is - though certainly in circulation as a meme in some quarters - definitely not prominent. This was made clear on the fringe noticeboard discussion.
What was also made clear in that conversation is that the white people and black people articles were originally meant to discuss the race-based "white" and "black" social categories/constructs. One need only look at the Category:Race (human classification) featured on both articles to see that this is indeed the case. Soupforone ( talk) 21:35, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
""wrong analogy"" I believe the complete argument is roaming around one man's ideology of terming Dravidians as "black people" I believe we should talk particular to India and not go to Australia , US or any other country for any anology as the word "Dravidian" is only represented in India,
First of all Indian society was deferentiated by crude caste system and not by there skin tone unlike other countries. there has never existed in society or religously or any other kind of manner deferentiating dravidians in India as black , terming them blacks will give wrong notion to the researchers of wiki articles who would confuse the term to the "black people" in general.
If dravidians are being termed black due to there slight black tone , why not people form indonesia, singapore , brazil , .. it makes no sence to have blackness scale for skin tone to term a ethnicity as "Black people" . I think the whole idea has to be dropped as India never had or is having any racial descrimination pertaining to skin tone. Shrikanthv ( talk) 13:40, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
There are various problems with your argument, but the main one is overlooking the fact that the term "black people" has for the most part been considered as essentially a synonym for "Negroid". This is true of both so-called black and white communities in the Americas and Europe alike; the link I produced earlier makes this clear. By contrast, none of the passages you picked out address what is or has historically been the most common global usage of the term "black people". They just give a few alternative modern definitions, some of which actually contradict each other (for instance, "Black Irish" vs. "of or relating to the African-American people or their culture"). Here again are the most common meanings of the social terms "black" and "white" when applied to human groups: "Knowability of racial categories is one of the myths of race. Racial categories have been taught as if the categories Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid had scientific bases. Today, the scientific terminology has changed to "Black," "White" and "Asian". Social categories of race have grown to include "ethnic" racial groupings, including what is usually referred to as "Hispanic." But what of Pacific Islanders? Are they a racial group or an ethnic group? And what of South Asians? Undoubtedly our categories expand to serve social and political needs." [10]
Three different editors now have indicated that: 1) This article and/or its companion black people wikipage are on race-based social categories/constructs. 2) While in some circles the term "black people" may include far-flung groups like Dravidians or Australian Aborigines, this is not the term's predominant usage globally. On this point, Paul B on the fringe noticeboard discussion wrote that "More recently some African-American writers have tried to construct a model of an "African diaspora", which includes any people deemed "black", in their view: which fact somehow makes them part of an African diaspora (even though everyonme is part of an Afican diaspora; if you are going to argue that people who happen to be dark skinned in Australia or India are part of it, you may as well argue that Norwegians are part of it)". Similarly, Shrikanthv has indicated above that "If dravidians are being termed black due to there slight black tone , why not people form indonesia, singapore , brazil , .. it makes no sence to have blackness scale for skin tone to term a ethnicity as "Black people"".
While the options you've just presented are appreciated, they aren't particularly necessary since a Color terminology for race article already exists for that purpose. Please now give other editors a chance to share their view/comment as per the process. We're almost at a rough consensus, but I'd still like to hear more opinions. Soupforone ( talk) 21:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
While I don't feel as much of a crisis about the issue as expressed here, I want reaffirm that Human skin color seems to be the best place to talk about "white skin" and "black skin." It's very hard to mentally separate our (social) categories of people from the assigned color. Indeed, the term "black skin" refers to a range of browns precisely because of social status. Similarly, some people with deep tan skin are regarded as having "tanned white skin" while others are regarded as having (untanned) "brown skin" (and that distinction varies by geographic location as well). I would strongly suggest developing human skin color with added specifics about different parts of the color range well before creating any new pages, reserving new pages for the possibility that information gets overly detailed there, per WP:SUMMARY.-- Carwil ( talk) 20:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I've deleted all the fuzzy regions bordering Europe in the bottom list. First of all, I don't see why we need to have that thing anyways, but that's beside the point. The point is that the "whiteness" of the inhabitants of those regions is often subject to context, personal opinions, and so on, and so you can't just draw a firm boundary on which groups are "white" in those regions and which aren't. European-descended= white is not universally accepted so it cannot be used. It can, however, be used in the colonial context, where "white" is used to refer to the human remnants of colonial rule, as in sub-Saharan Africa, the Americas, Southeast Asia and Oceania. That isn't disputed, so I left that. Wikipedia should only make statements where there is consensus on terms that are widely used in all contexts, not only in some.-- Yalens ( talk) 02:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
There are no official statistics about ethnicity in Sweden, and the source to Sweden's numbers on the list imply that immigrants can't be of white decent. I therefore think Sweden should be removed from the list until a better source can be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nordanvind ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Can we get an approximate amount of people identified as white living in the world as compared to other races? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.218.176.223 ( talk) 14:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I dont know why an user keep reverting this... Last year in Venezuela there were the XIV Census, where it showed for the very first time in this century the ethnicity of Venezuela, so that's why I added it. It is more reliable than the source of the "Britannica Online Encyclopedia", so why keeping reverting this into a not very accurate source? So, added an OFFICIAL SOURCE from the 2011 Venezuelan Census. The "Britannica Online Encyclopedia" is not anymore a reliable source for this case, since there is a recent and OFFICIAL result of the Venezuelan Ethnicity. The results of the Official 2011 Venezuelan Census showed that 42,2% of the population are white (of the 27,227,930 inhabitants, the source are from the Government "Instituto Nacional de Estadistica" ( INE) ... and the document from that report you can find it in the pg. 14 of this link Official Census 2011 - Venezuela. Also the University of Brasilia did a research where the result was that 60,6% of the population in Venezuela were from European (white) ancestry. "O impacto das migrações na constituição genética de populações latino-americanas"
So those are more reliable source than that one from the "Britannica Online Encyclopedia", that encyclopedia didnt even do studies/research about the ethnicity in Venezuela, so why that's more reliable than the official ones?, also it's old and not very accurate -- Pankoroku ( talk) 06:22, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Sorry but you are speaking of coloured people in venezuela there aren't 42.2% white persons... i think there don't are even 10% because it's normal it's like in colombia or the countries around there... — Preceding unsigned comment added by HardstyleGB ( talk • contribs) 00:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Where is Spain in your list of regions with white population?
Unfortunately, due to the role of European populations in the New world and the kind of societies that they created, with "whites" on the top of the social ladder, there is a strong bias against other "races". It is even sad that people deny their own roots and blood. In the US, most of the population have non-European, if you like, non-White blood. Even those who call themselves white are the result of a strong ethnic intermixing, just with predominant European ancestors, but from many distinct European nations and some non-European ancestry. In Latin American the Native American background is still predominant. The myth of the extinction of the Amerindians by the Spanish is a myth supported by ignorance and diverse types of propaganda. It is a shame that the descendants of the brave Native Americans (who in many cases share ohter ancestries, manly European) feel shame of their own blood. Even in the Caribbean, where so much ignorance and simplistic scholarship has been produced on this matter, most of the population are still of substantial Native American ancestry. An encyclopeadia like this should not be used to maintain and reproduce ignorance, especially when this ignorance is the result of very racist conceptions based on a past European colonial past. I could flood this page with articles based on actual DNA research about the Americas, from Alaska to Patagonia. Here is just one example from Puerto Rico, while according to the Wiki article most people are of "white" ancestry, and not of mixed ancestry, which is the real type of population for the entire American Continent:
http://www.centrelink.org/KearnsDNA.html
I feel ashamed when I see articles like this. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 15:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Is this source reliable?
Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 00:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, then even if we are all half Indians we will deny it and that is fine. Let us fill articles with it. As to the US situation, I mean that the mixed category is actually the largest: almost 20 per cent of the population is Hispanic (most of mixed ancestry) about 15 per cent Black (Only white admixture ranges to up to 20 per cent on average) 1/3 of whites have non-European ancestries as well, even those who are of "pure' European origin" are the result of the admixture of multiple European ethnicities. This article should be called: Peoples who want to pass as majority white. Anyway, this is my two pence. I am not wasting any more time on this article. Pipo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 01:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Could someone capable of it please remove "Germany" from the section "Regions with significant populations"? Neither do the links given in the footnotes contain the figure "71,900,000" or say anything about skin color, nor is there official census data about ethnicity available for Germany. The only figures available (and cited in the footnotes) are concerning immigration or "migration background", with doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ethnicity. So I'm in favour of deleting Germany from that list. 93.228.64.244 ( talk) 21:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
I just saw that someone marked several countries with "original research?" and that Sweden has been excluded from that list some time ago. As I see it, the only countries that have statistics regarding ethnicity are the USA, Brazil, England, Scotland, Wales, South Africa and Venezuela. I'm not sure whether the data provided for Chile can be called "official census data". I strongly recommend to remove all other countries. 93.220.224.185 ( talk) 13:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
There is no reference to "Europeans" in the Aristotle's book, only to "women", so the quoted text is shamefully distorted in the article!