This page is in highly imperfect English. I'm going to come back to it presently and thoroughly revise it. Comments andor objections please. Froggo Zijgeb 11:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The article seems to suggest cultural or marketing bias towards supermarkets (e.g., implying without evidence that supermarket animals are better treated than wet market ones). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.63.3 ( talk) 16:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, why limit the concept of "market" or "wet market" to live animals? All over Europe there are traditional markets which sell a great variety of fruit and vegetables, as well as meat (no live animals) and fish (mostly dead already!)... (They exist here in Catalonia, for example, throughout Spain and Portugal, in special market buildings, as, for instance, La Boqueria or the Mercat de Sant Antoni, as well as in Ukraine, Poland, Bielorussia, etc etc.). It is an excellent alternative to a supermarket (and naturally predates it by centuries...), and many people consider it more "human", i.e. you talk to the vendor directly, butcher shops cut your meat as you wish, the fishmongers prepare your fish for whatever type of cooking you wish (for the grill, the oven, etc., whole, "deboned", with or without the head, roe, fins, etc), vegetable vendors will explain where they got their products, give you ideas on how to prepare them, olive stalls have an endless variety of olives that they prepare themselves, etc, etc. Countless advantages. The article should reflect some of this variety. Also, it seems to concentrate on Asia, whereas I'm sure such markets exist all over the globe, except in the US, Canada, Australia, Germany, France,... i.e. except in a few countries. Maybe the concept of "wet market" is more narrow and I'm missing something? hmmm...-- Cata-girl ( talk) 13:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Never mind, I guess everything I was talking about is included under Marketplace. Maybe the introduction to this article should mention that it is related to Asia, and refer people to Marketplace for a more general (?) outlook, or at least for another option. :) -- Cata-girl ( talk) 13:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
no markets here in the U.S.-- we eat styrofoam! (Cata-girl, what are you talking about?) 208.68.128.53 ( talk) 23:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
What? Too much embarrassment ? If any editor here has any political motives to hold onto this article for dear life, just remember, as i write this, I have the pandemic live video open and people are dying. I hear the bell for every infected. If you are from china, you should be obligated to go back to editing and shame Wet markets for what they really are, open air Slaughter places for diseased animals, Cats and Dogs alike. YES i mentioned PETA, and one of the members here accuse me of "Disruptive Editing". Go Edit the wikipage and go write how Dogs start at other dogs as they apathetically slaughter them one at a time and let the world know what that WET markets are legalized black markets, all for money and fancy "exotic meat". Biomax20 ( talk) 06:24, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Wet markets sell wild animals that haven't undergone medical screeningunattributed and in general.
Hygienesection.
@ Donkey Hot-day: Your recent edit is distorting what the referenced sources say. You wrote "most wet markets in China do not sell wild animals" but then referenced this [1] article which can be summarized with this quote: "The [Huanan] market sold much more than seafood, including a range of wild animals. (...) Where markets do contain what many western media portray as “wild animals”, the majority of these are actually bred and farmed in captivity, such as mallard ducks, frogs, or snakes. Only a smaller proportion of animals are actually poached from the wild for sale." This really means way more than your edit implied - specifically, the authors admits there are markets trading wild animals, including poached, but it's just not "most" of them. His further argument is purely economical - the author doesn't deny that the markets pose a biosafety threat, but merely argues that closing them would strip "steady income" from farmers in rural areas of China and deprive Chinese consumers of significant food sector. Cloud200 ( talk) 17:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Experts are calling for the international community to force a global shutdown of these markets because of their role in COVID. [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJacques ( talk • contribs) 08:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I live in southern China. I buy most of my fruit, veg and meat in my nearby wet market. I have never seen cats or dogs on sale there. I have never seen any wildlife on sale there either. However the prices are half of what they are in the nearby supermarket. Come to think of it I have seen wildlife sold in the supermarket. They have cans of tuna fish; that is caught, not farmed. Too many westerners have xenophobic fantasies of what a Chinese wet market is supposed to be like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.3.185.243 ( talk) 04:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of the pervasiveness of blood (from the slaughtering of live animals) at some wet markets, helping to explain why it is called a "wet" market. Currently, it is not clear to the reader why they are called "wet" markets. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 05:10, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
That is referenced, but I don’t see any sources about reference to blood. — MarkH21 talk 05:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)The "wet" in "wet market" refers to the constantly wet floors as a consequence of the spraying of fresh produce and cleaning of meat and seafood stalls.
@
CFCF: I was hesitant when first adding the
LA Times article because its title does say Commentary
, but the article is in the LA Times'
op-ed column nor does the article have the LA Times' "Opinion" tag; the article is only tagged with "Food" and "World & Nation". So it seems that the article is not classified as an opinion article by the LA Times.
Regarding the Conversation article, there's nothing to suggest that it is an opinion piece as you claimed, so should be a reliable source per WP:RSPSOURCES. — MarkH21 talk 07:54, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Here is medicinenet.com describing wet market as:
Wet market: A live animal market, a common sight in many areas of the world and a source of influenza viruses and other infectious disease agents for human beings. SARS outbreaks have been traced to wet markets in southern China.
Wet markets sell live poultry, fish, reptiles, and mammals of every kind. Animals may stay from days to weeks. Daily introduction of new animals provides optimum conditions for the development of disease agents such as influenza. Add the daily human contacts (including children) with the live animals, and conditions are optimal for the transfer and evolution of infectious disease agents.
This 2015 academic article ( doi: 10.1016/j.sbspro.2015.01.029) defines a wet market as:
A wet market is generally an open food market. People already familiar shopping at the wet market, where the floor may routinely be sprayed and washed with water that gave it the name "wet market." The main functions of the market have been associated with selling of live animals out in the open. The collection may include poultry, fish, and meats.
My emphasis.
The defining feature of these definitions is that the animals are alive at the market. We probably need to cover this or similar definitions — to make sense of the controversy. Carl Fredrik talk 08:56, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
@ CFCF: Isn't the etymology / terminology section usually the first section in an article? I've almost always seen it as the very first section after the lead. Even the articles related to this one do so (e.g. marketplace, wildlife trade, retail). — MarkH21 talk 09:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the latest wave of edits makes this article extremely biased and well below Wikipedia standards. Please do not use WP:WEASEL, please re-read WP:UNDUE and stick to WP:NPOV. Wet markets were for decades (earliest source I found was 2003) criticized by the very Chinese (and other Asian) media and scientific community IN THE FIRST PLACE. This whole dualism of "Western media" versus "Chinese" makes this article turn into some kind of Occidentalist nightmare. China is not a single entity with a single worldview, all living in rural areas and all feeding on wet markets. Chinese media are just as polarized on the subject of wet markets as Western ones, some arguing for closure based on scientific, epidemiologic and humanitarian arguments, some defending them based on traditions or for profit. As you are trying to "defend" what you perceive as "China", you are only reinforcing the stereotypes of China being something distant and different, while at the same time there is nothing like "Western vs Chinese science" - all Chinese scientists quoted in the article publish in global scientific journals and are recognized globally - and I would probably even argue that there's nothing like "Western vs Chinese media" on this particular matter. The task of Wikipedia is to describe the topic accurately and objectively. If someone has said it, then they said it and we just report it here, but building a false, one-sided context around it (like only "Western media called for ban") is simply making the article inaccurate and biased. Cloud200 ( talk) 13:11, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
In western media, “wet markets” are portrayed as emblems of Chinese otherness. If you find a source criticizing Chinese media coverage, then add that and attribute it as such.Also, the section of media coverage is about media coverage, not what the critics of specific media coverage say should be banned. The section should be focused. Other hygiene-related points can be covered in the relevant section.Please stop WP:SHOUTING. — MarkH21 talk 14:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
In Chinese media, wet markets are often portrayed without distinguishing between general wet markets and wildlife markets, using montages images from different markets across China without specific identifying information? No. They’re what you think are examples of articles fitting the description given by the other two references that were specifically about Western media. That’s why it’s inappropriate WP:SYNTH. If two sources claim something about things in a group, you cannot add another group to the original claim unless you find a reference specifically extending the original claim.The additional sentence that you are repeatedly reinserting,
is not about media coverage (besides being grammatically incorrect). — MarkH21 talk 21:28, 4 April 2020 (UTC)Authors admit the Huanan market sold "sold much more than seafood, including a range of wild animals" and some animals sold on such markets are poached, but called for "science-based regulation" rather than blanket ban, arguing that wild animal farming is important part of national identity and significant income for small farmer in rural regions
Regarding my edit [10]:
Cloud200 ( talk) 13:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Also the lead is overgrown and WP:UNDUE. The article is about wet markets in general, not about COVID-19, so only the first paragraph is actually relevant. The other two should be moved down to the main body of the article. Cloud200 ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversiesper WP:LEAD. The role in the COVID-19 pandemic is extremely prominent in RS coverage and is also covered in two sections in the body. Summarizing them in the lead is only appropriate. — MarkH21 talk 14:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
These markets are being blamed by some for causing a worldwide pandemic, this is extremely significant!-- SmokeyJacques ( talk) 09:16, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
If believed to have played a role in the 2020 coronavirus pandemic
is due, then it is very important to add more recent sources (preferably
WP:MEDRS) that question the link between wet markets and the outbreak. It should be better summarized in the lead too. --
MarioGom (
talk) 23:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@
XavierItzm:: The paragraph in the lead says Wet markets were banned from holding wildlife in China
. The re-opening of wet markets that you added into the lead is about the temporary closure of all wet markets, not just the ones holding wildlife. Wet markets are still banned from holding wildlife in China after the re-opening of general wet markets. Not to mention that your cited Newsweek article is just sharing that the Daily Mail (unreliable per
WP:DAILYMAIL) reported this: A recent story in the Daily Mail details how these wet markets have reopened following the end of China's two-month lockdown.
—
MarkH21
talk 01:16, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
References
Renowned medical experts have called for a closure of all wet markets: [11]. Wildlife was banned before too, yet still sale went on in these markets.-- SmokeyJacques ( talk) 09:14, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
One primary reference to a non South-east Asian or Chinese wet market in Ghana is not sufficient to establish WP:DUE. Additionally, the definition in our article includes specific mention that wet market is the term used in South-East Asia, and not worldwide. Please give due respect to the difference between WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY. Carl Fredrik talk 12:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
wet-marketthroughout the paper. — MarkH21 talk 12:13, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
wet-marketthroughout.
The main food retail outlets in developing countries are wet markets, that are open air public markets with many retailers specializing in selling a small amount of one item or a few items.
In sub-Saharan Africa, the great majority of livestock and fish products are sold in informal or wet markets, that is, markets which escape effective health and safety regulation, are often untaxed and unlicensed, and where traditional processing, products and prices predominate
Wet markets key to Africa’s food securityuses the term
Retail: The retail market exists in the wet market, supermarkets, hotels and lodges as well as the mobile vendors. Commercial farmers currently enjoy this market where they have individual connections and sell their mangoes at higher prices.
improving meat safety in a Nigerian wet-markethosted by the FAO.
A well-documented initiative working with butchers in wet markets of Ibadan promoted “positively deviant practices” and peer-to-peer training(on Nigeria).
More wine and spirits are now sold to the consumers and re-sellers through the wholesalers located in the traditional open wet markets (mostly patronized by the low and middle income consumers).
In Sri Lanka, the majority of broiler birds are processed mechanically in semi-automated plants, but a significant number of wet markets, where only poultry is slaughtered, continue to exist.
Despite these broiler figures, 95 percent of poultry in Pakistan is sold live, or through a traditional wet market
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. The OED does not define it as "a Southeast Asian market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce". There's a difference between a term being of SE/E Asian origin and a term being used exclusively for markets from SE/E Asia. Do we really need an RfC for this? — MarkH21 talk 13:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
( edit conflict)That's just not true, several of those sources make specific mention to the geographic distribution. Here are also definitions that specifically mention the South East Asian use:
wet market — noun — South East Asian — A market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. Oxford Lexico
wet market — noun — in south east Asia, a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce macmillan dictionary
What is a Wet Market? The origin of wet market is rooted in the periodic-marketing system in China, a significant feature of China’s domestic trade studied by G. William Skinner (Eastman 1988). Peasants in traditional agrarian Chinese society were largely self-sufficient in producing food and immediate necessities. To satisfy a variety of other specialized needs, they had to go directly to the location for exchange. [...] Present wet markets in Hong Kong are evolved from the periodic-marketing system. An Ethnographic Comparison of Wet Markets and Supermarkets in Hong Kong
We can't take a specific term for a Chinese phenomenon and post-hoc repurpose it to signify something that exists across the world. Then the term "wet market" means nothing, as it is totally synonymous with "food market" — which would be doing everyone a disservice. Then this article should be at food market, and we need to split out Wet market (South East Asia). Carl Fredrik talk 13:37, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. The MacMillan entry is from their crowdsourced Open Dictionary and was only added on 11 March 2020. The SCMP article does not say that the term is a Chinese phenomenon; it describes the etymology of the word from the Chinese language and how the history of HK's wet markets after
Hong Kong’s wet markets arose from China’s agrarian society. The CUHK reference is about
Wet markets in Hong Kong, so yes the Hong Kong wet markets arose from the Chinese agrarian society just as SCMP noted. Where does the Food Safety News article say that wet markets are distinctly Chinese? It has a section on
Traditional Chinese Wet Marketsand describes the history of wet markets in China; that doesn't mean that all wet markets have origins in China.We aren't repurposing the term; we reflect its existing usage in reliable sources. A plethora of reliable sources describe wet markets in places outside of SE/E Asia and all of our defining references simply define the term as it is written in the first sentence of the lead. These sources do not define the term to mean such markets specifically in SE/E Asia and we have to reflect those sources. Otherwise, you're adding "in Southeast/East Asia" to the definition yourself.It may be illuminating to contrast the OED/Lexico definition for "wet market" (which does not specify the market location) with the one for "bazaar" (which does):
A market in a Middle Eastern country. — MarkH21 talk 13:49, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
in a Middle Eastern country. The majority of sources agree that it is a SE/E Asian phenomenon, yes. But they do not say that it is a solely SE/E Asian phenomenon.I don't know if you've realized that food market is a redirect to food marketing, which is about a wholly different subject. — MarkH21 talk 15:36, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Hong Kong’s wet markets arose from China’s agrarian societyand then briefly mentions the history of the Central Market in Hong Kong. The CUHK source talks about how
Present wet markets in Hong Kong are evolved from the periodic-marketing system. You're basing your assertion that we should not include wet markets from outside of SE/E Asia on those two things?The definition of wet market is different from grocery store, butchers shop and green grocer:
a retail trader in fruit and vegetables, wet markets are not only those that are exclusively retail, and not exclusively fruits & vegetables
:a retail shop that primarily sells food, either fresh or preserved, wet markets are markets, not stores
There is a clear consensus that the article's scope should include marketplaces that are not in Southeast Asia and East Asia. Editors found that reliable sources cover "wet markets" in the context of Africa, the Americas, the Middle East, Oceania, West Asia, and South Asia.
The article and its supporting references define a wet market to be a marketplace selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods
. Should the article's scope:
Thank you. 20:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. This contrasts with a restricted geographic definition like those for bazaar (e.g. OED/Lexico:
A market in a Middle Eastern country.) The OED and a few other references mention that the term is of Southeast Asian origin, but the origin of a term is independent of its usage outside of its place of origin.
Reliable source usage of "wet markets" for Africa, the Americas, the Middle East, Oceania, West Asia, and South Asia
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From the following, there are 53 sources making explicit mention of wet markets in:
(Bolding is mine)
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typically open-airor outdoors (with modern ones moving indoors).
Fresh food markets — where people can buy fruits and vegetables and sometimes seafood and meat — are popular in many places around the world. But "wet markets" are unique to Asian countries. MNN
Live-animal markets (wet markets) provide a source of vertebrate and invertebrate animals for customers in tropical and subtropical regions of the world. […] Wet markets are widespread in Asian countries and in countries where Asian people have migrated.The Lancet
The complex of stalls selling live fish, meat and wild animals is known in the region as a "wet market." [Talking about Wuhan]NPR
Fresh food markets are common in many cities, but wet markets are an Asian phenomenon.NY Times Travel
Wet market is a Singapore and Hong Kong English term that is now being applied to a wide variety of food markets around the developing world, even though many of the markets look like the fresh produce and meat markets in Italy and France. The Atlantic
A common sight across Asia, wet markets traditionally sell fresh produce and live animals, such as fish, in the open air. Reuters
Wet markets — open marketplaces with stalls selling fresh meat and fish — are considered a traditional form of food retail in large Asian cities. Global News
Wet markets are an Asian phenomenon scattered throughout the island of Singapore. Singapoor Vacation Attractions
Hong Kong has numerous wet markets, and they exist throughout Asia, including in Singapore and Thailand. News Decoder
Asia-specific defintion, contrary to CFCF's claim. Almost none of them specify that wet markets are a solely Southeast/East Asian phenomenon. Also, a grocery store is a store, while a wet market isn't a store. — MarkH21 talk 23:50, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
A building or part of a building where goods or services are sold.; Merriam Webster:
a business establishment where usually diversified goods are kept for retail sale.Marketplaces (and wet markets) include outdoor markets with multiple different vendor stalls. Do you need references for that statement too? It's in several of the references at wet market and marketplace, it's not OR. Food hall, market hall, and food court are further examples of specialized marketplaces that must be indoors (with even more specific restrictions for food hall & food court). — MarkH21 talk 00:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
this article is open for merging with grocery store, food hall, market hall, or food courtthat you claimed in your !vote above.It's absolutely false that
most of what are traditionally referred to as wet markets are indoors. Is that WP:OR? The aforementioned study on Ghanaian wet markets plus a litany of other references mention open-air wet markets both recent and old, academic and journalistic:
Traditionally, wet markets were housed in temporary sheds or in the open air
The majority of outdoor wet markets have been moved to indoor operations in cities
"Wet markets" refer to traditional open air markets.
ways to improve food safety in traditional open-air markets or 'wet' markets
people continued to go to wet markets ostensibly to buy food supplies [...] most marketgoers, particularly in open-air markets like the one in Air Itam
At such markets, outdoor stalls are squeezed together to form narrow lanes
Wet markets are found the world over, typically open-air sites selling fresh meat, seafood, and produce
Deep in the bowels of Singapore’s Chinatown complex was a large open-air market that stood in stark contrast to the surrounding glitzy skyscrapers and immaculate streets
Traditionally, wet markets were housed in temporary sheds or in the open airand that Nanjing moved all of theirs indoors since 2014. As early as 2008, most Chinese wet markets in cities were moved indoors ( a paper listed above)I haven't seen a single one say that they're typically or traditionally indoors. On the other hand, several of the articles currently referenced in the WP article describe open air wet markets (e.g. Politico, LA Times) or even say that they are
traditionally [...] in the open air( Reuters) or
typically open-air( National Review). Even the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market at the focus of the whole coronavirus pandemic coverage was an outdoor wet market ( Straits Times, USA Today).The point is that wet markets are not exclusively (or even traditionally) indoors, while you claimed that there is little distinction between wet markets and the exclusively indoors grocery stores, food halls, market halls, and food courts. There's a clear distinction with wet markets not being exclusively indoors and not carrying the other defining restrictions that those types of places have. — MarkH21 talk 09:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
most are indoorsand that
Option 2 is an unworkable definition and means this article is open for merging with grocery store, food hall, market hall, or food court. I’m glad we agree on this. — MarkH21 talk 11:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
the overwhelming majority, (the entire article reference list apart from what is listed above by MarkH21) uses an Asia-specific definition, I've gone through each of the 89 references in the article's reference list (except for: #13, #14, #48, #58, #59, #60, #61, #67, #70). Not a single one uses an Asia-specific definition. The closest are the Bloomberg opinion article (#47, duplicated in #27 and #57) which describes
The region encompassing the wet market zone from China and South Korea down through most of Southeast Asia has the best record for [...], and the LA Times commentary article, which describes
“Wet” markets are what China calls its fresh food markets.While perusing the 89 references, I also found more that explicitly describe wet markets outside of Asia, which I'll add to the large list above. — MarkH21 talk 08:23, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources which specify it precisely:
The complex of stalls selling live fish, meat and wild animals is known in the region as a "wet market." [Talking about Wuhan]
Fresh food markets are common in many cities, but wet markets are an Asian phenomenon.
Wet market is a Singapore and Hong Kong English term that is now being applied to a wide variety of food markets around the developing world, even though many of the markets look like the fresh produce and meat markets in Italy and France.
What that goes to show is that the term is being widened as of this year, because there is a difference between those sources that are a few years old, and those from this year — one which may rely on WP:CIRCULAR.
[…] known in the region as a "wet market".say? Carl Fredrik talk 13:00, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Fresh food markets — where people can buy fruits and vegetables and sometimes seafood and meat — are popular in many places around the world. But "wet markets" are unique to Asian countries.
One primary reference to a non South-east Asian or Chinese wet market in Ghana is not sufficient to establish WP:DUE. I added 2 secondary sources.
broader use must be based off strong WP:SECONDARY sources, so I gave 10.
broader use must be based off strong WP:SECONDARY sourcesand we need an RfC, so I gave 23.
typically outdoors.
In Spain, Castilian Spanish is called castellano, meanwhile half of Ibero-America also calls it “castellano”. Similarly,
Localized cutaneous leishmaniasis (LCL), known as "chiclero's ulcer" in southeast Mexico, was [...]here has no bearing on how it’s also called that in Guatemala and Belize. Similarly, a source just discussing a wet market in Asia has no bearing on the existence and prevalence of wet markets elsewhere. You’re literally making an indirect inferral, and we need more than 2 direct references + indirect OR inferral + vague hand-waving to
thousands of sources. If a source doesn’t say it, we don’t assume. That’s just WP:STICKTOSOURCE. — MarkH21 talk 20:05, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sourcesfrom WP:OR. — MarkH21 talk 23:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC); fixed "nearly all" 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
nearly alland not
all, which is still false according to the plethora of sources that said that they're
typically open-air, and the
10was in reference to the broader use statement (both now amended in the post above).The
overwhelming majoritydo not use an
Asia-specific definition. Go through the entire reference list, not one does. None of the first 30 references even make any reference to Asia in their definitions, except maybe the opinion article #27. There are thousands of hits on Google about wet markets and Asia; that's different from thousands of articles use a definition of "wet market" that specifically makes reference to Asia. I'm not even sure that there are thousands of reliable sources that talk about wet markets. — MarkH21 talk 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC); updated
a common sight across Asia. One only makes the statement that
Wet markets are widespread in Asian countries and in countries where Asian people have migrated(so countries outside Asia...).So we're left with 2 articles (from MNN and Fodors Travel posted by NYT Travel) make exclusive mention of Asia, 1 (from NPR) says that they are
known in the region as a "wet market", 1 (from the youth news service News Decoder) that says that
they exist throughout Asia, and 1 (from Global News) that they
are considered a traditional form of food retail in large Asian cities. Meanwhile, we have
the markets have not only existed in Asia, but also in Africa and South America) from Hippeus, including at least 3 in the article itself give explicit mentions and descriptions of wet markets outside of SE/E Asia ( CBC, Mongabay, the aforementioned The Atlantic article, another Lancet article), many non-opinion articles ( another The Guardian article, Fox News, Fox News again, The Times of India, Newshub), and not including many opinion articles ( Al Jazeera, IFPRI blog, NY Daily, Financial Review).I'm clearly unconvinced by your arguments for restricting the scope of the article, something that I think requires strong direct RS support, but further discussion (at least between us) seems unproductive since it's now at the point of just
your false summary of it does nothing to weaken my argument. I look forward to seeing what other editors think. — MarkH21 talk 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC); updated 12:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
This page is in highly imperfect English. I'm going to come back to it presently and thoroughly revise it. Comments andor objections please. Froggo Zijgeb 11:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The article seems to suggest cultural or marketing bias towards supermarkets (e.g., implying without evidence that supermarket animals are better treated than wet market ones). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.63.3 ( talk) 16:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Also, why limit the concept of "market" or "wet market" to live animals? All over Europe there are traditional markets which sell a great variety of fruit and vegetables, as well as meat (no live animals) and fish (mostly dead already!)... (They exist here in Catalonia, for example, throughout Spain and Portugal, in special market buildings, as, for instance, La Boqueria or the Mercat de Sant Antoni, as well as in Ukraine, Poland, Bielorussia, etc etc.). It is an excellent alternative to a supermarket (and naturally predates it by centuries...), and many people consider it more "human", i.e. you talk to the vendor directly, butcher shops cut your meat as you wish, the fishmongers prepare your fish for whatever type of cooking you wish (for the grill, the oven, etc., whole, "deboned", with or without the head, roe, fins, etc), vegetable vendors will explain where they got their products, give you ideas on how to prepare them, olive stalls have an endless variety of olives that they prepare themselves, etc, etc. Countless advantages. The article should reflect some of this variety. Also, it seems to concentrate on Asia, whereas I'm sure such markets exist all over the globe, except in the US, Canada, Australia, Germany, France,... i.e. except in a few countries. Maybe the concept of "wet market" is more narrow and I'm missing something? hmmm...-- Cata-girl ( talk) 13:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Never mind, I guess everything I was talking about is included under Marketplace. Maybe the introduction to this article should mention that it is related to Asia, and refer people to Marketplace for a more general (?) outlook, or at least for another option. :) -- Cata-girl ( talk) 13:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
no markets here in the U.S.-- we eat styrofoam! (Cata-girl, what are you talking about?) 208.68.128.53 ( talk) 23:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
What? Too much embarrassment ? If any editor here has any political motives to hold onto this article for dear life, just remember, as i write this, I have the pandemic live video open and people are dying. I hear the bell for every infected. If you are from china, you should be obligated to go back to editing and shame Wet markets for what they really are, open air Slaughter places for diseased animals, Cats and Dogs alike. YES i mentioned PETA, and one of the members here accuse me of "Disruptive Editing". Go Edit the wikipage and go write how Dogs start at other dogs as they apathetically slaughter them one at a time and let the world know what that WET markets are legalized black markets, all for money and fancy "exotic meat". Biomax20 ( talk) 06:24, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Wet markets sell wild animals that haven't undergone medical screeningunattributed and in general.
Hygienesection.
@ Donkey Hot-day: Your recent edit is distorting what the referenced sources say. You wrote "most wet markets in China do not sell wild animals" but then referenced this [1] article which can be summarized with this quote: "The [Huanan] market sold much more than seafood, including a range of wild animals. (...) Where markets do contain what many western media portray as “wild animals”, the majority of these are actually bred and farmed in captivity, such as mallard ducks, frogs, or snakes. Only a smaller proportion of animals are actually poached from the wild for sale." This really means way more than your edit implied - specifically, the authors admits there are markets trading wild animals, including poached, but it's just not "most" of them. His further argument is purely economical - the author doesn't deny that the markets pose a biosafety threat, but merely argues that closing them would strip "steady income" from farmers in rural areas of China and deprive Chinese consumers of significant food sector. Cloud200 ( talk) 17:23, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Experts are calling for the international community to force a global shutdown of these markets because of their role in COVID. [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by SmokeyJacques ( talk • contribs) 08:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I live in southern China. I buy most of my fruit, veg and meat in my nearby wet market. I have never seen cats or dogs on sale there. I have never seen any wildlife on sale there either. However the prices are half of what they are in the nearby supermarket. Come to think of it I have seen wildlife sold in the supermarket. They have cans of tuna fish; that is caught, not farmed. Too many westerners have xenophobic fantasies of what a Chinese wet market is supposed to be like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42.3.185.243 ( talk) 04:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of the pervasiveness of blood (from the slaughtering of live animals) at some wet markets, helping to explain why it is called a "wet" market. Currently, it is not clear to the reader why they are called "wet" markets. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 05:10, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
That is referenced, but I don’t see any sources about reference to blood. — MarkH21 talk 05:34, 3 April 2020 (UTC)The "wet" in "wet market" refers to the constantly wet floors as a consequence of the spraying of fresh produce and cleaning of meat and seafood stalls.
@
CFCF: I was hesitant when first adding the
LA Times article because its title does say Commentary
, but the article is in the LA Times'
op-ed column nor does the article have the LA Times' "Opinion" tag; the article is only tagged with "Food" and "World & Nation". So it seems that the article is not classified as an opinion article by the LA Times.
Regarding the Conversation article, there's nothing to suggest that it is an opinion piece as you claimed, so should be a reliable source per WP:RSPSOURCES. — MarkH21 talk 07:54, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Here is medicinenet.com describing wet market as:
Wet market: A live animal market, a common sight in many areas of the world and a source of influenza viruses and other infectious disease agents for human beings. SARS outbreaks have been traced to wet markets in southern China.
Wet markets sell live poultry, fish, reptiles, and mammals of every kind. Animals may stay from days to weeks. Daily introduction of new animals provides optimum conditions for the development of disease agents such as influenza. Add the daily human contacts (including children) with the live animals, and conditions are optimal for the transfer and evolution of infectious disease agents.
This 2015 academic article ( doi: 10.1016/j.sbspro.2015.01.029) defines a wet market as:
A wet market is generally an open food market. People already familiar shopping at the wet market, where the floor may routinely be sprayed and washed with water that gave it the name "wet market." The main functions of the market have been associated with selling of live animals out in the open. The collection may include poultry, fish, and meats.
My emphasis.
The defining feature of these definitions is that the animals are alive at the market. We probably need to cover this or similar definitions — to make sense of the controversy. Carl Fredrik talk 08:56, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
@ CFCF: Isn't the etymology / terminology section usually the first section in an article? I've almost always seen it as the very first section after the lead. Even the articles related to this one do so (e.g. marketplace, wildlife trade, retail). — MarkH21 talk 09:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry but the latest wave of edits makes this article extremely biased and well below Wikipedia standards. Please do not use WP:WEASEL, please re-read WP:UNDUE and stick to WP:NPOV. Wet markets were for decades (earliest source I found was 2003) criticized by the very Chinese (and other Asian) media and scientific community IN THE FIRST PLACE. This whole dualism of "Western media" versus "Chinese" makes this article turn into some kind of Occidentalist nightmare. China is not a single entity with a single worldview, all living in rural areas and all feeding on wet markets. Chinese media are just as polarized on the subject of wet markets as Western ones, some arguing for closure based on scientific, epidemiologic and humanitarian arguments, some defending them based on traditions or for profit. As you are trying to "defend" what you perceive as "China", you are only reinforcing the stereotypes of China being something distant and different, while at the same time there is nothing like "Western vs Chinese science" - all Chinese scientists quoted in the article publish in global scientific journals and are recognized globally - and I would probably even argue that there's nothing like "Western vs Chinese media" on this particular matter. The task of Wikipedia is to describe the topic accurately and objectively. If someone has said it, then they said it and we just report it here, but building a false, one-sided context around it (like only "Western media called for ban") is simply making the article inaccurate and biased. Cloud200 ( talk) 13:11, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
In western media, “wet markets” are portrayed as emblems of Chinese otherness. If you find a source criticizing Chinese media coverage, then add that and attribute it as such.Also, the section of media coverage is about media coverage, not what the critics of specific media coverage say should be banned. The section should be focused. Other hygiene-related points can be covered in the relevant section.Please stop WP:SHOUTING. — MarkH21 talk 14:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
In Chinese media, wet markets are often portrayed without distinguishing between general wet markets and wildlife markets, using montages images from different markets across China without specific identifying information? No. They’re what you think are examples of articles fitting the description given by the other two references that were specifically about Western media. That’s why it’s inappropriate WP:SYNTH. If two sources claim something about things in a group, you cannot add another group to the original claim unless you find a reference specifically extending the original claim.The additional sentence that you are repeatedly reinserting,
is not about media coverage (besides being grammatically incorrect). — MarkH21 talk 21:28, 4 April 2020 (UTC)Authors admit the Huanan market sold "sold much more than seafood, including a range of wild animals" and some animals sold on such markets are poached, but called for "science-based regulation" rather than blanket ban, arguing that wild animal farming is important part of national identity and significant income for small farmer in rural regions
Regarding my edit [10]:
Cloud200 ( talk) 13:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Also the lead is overgrown and WP:UNDUE. The article is about wet markets in general, not about COVID-19, so only the first paragraph is actually relevant. The other two should be moved down to the main body of the article. Cloud200 ( talk) 13:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversiesper WP:LEAD. The role in the COVID-19 pandemic is extremely prominent in RS coverage and is also covered in two sections in the body. Summarizing them in the lead is only appropriate. — MarkH21 talk 14:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
These markets are being blamed by some for causing a worldwide pandemic, this is extremely significant!-- SmokeyJacques ( talk) 09:16, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
If believed to have played a role in the 2020 coronavirus pandemic
is due, then it is very important to add more recent sources (preferably
WP:MEDRS) that question the link between wet markets and the outbreak. It should be better summarized in the lead too. --
MarioGom (
talk) 23:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
@
XavierItzm:: The paragraph in the lead says Wet markets were banned from holding wildlife in China
. The re-opening of wet markets that you added into the lead is about the temporary closure of all wet markets, not just the ones holding wildlife. Wet markets are still banned from holding wildlife in China after the re-opening of general wet markets. Not to mention that your cited Newsweek article is just sharing that the Daily Mail (unreliable per
WP:DAILYMAIL) reported this: A recent story in the Daily Mail details how these wet markets have reopened following the end of China's two-month lockdown.
—
MarkH21
talk 01:16, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
References
Renowned medical experts have called for a closure of all wet markets: [11]. Wildlife was banned before too, yet still sale went on in these markets.-- SmokeyJacques ( talk) 09:14, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
One primary reference to a non South-east Asian or Chinese wet market in Ghana is not sufficient to establish WP:DUE. Additionally, the definition in our article includes specific mention that wet market is the term used in South-East Asia, and not worldwide. Please give due respect to the difference between WP:PRIMARY and WP:SECONDARY. Carl Fredrik talk 12:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
wet-marketthroughout the paper. — MarkH21 talk 12:13, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
wet-marketthroughout.
The main food retail outlets in developing countries are wet markets, that are open air public markets with many retailers specializing in selling a small amount of one item or a few items.
In sub-Saharan Africa, the great majority of livestock and fish products are sold in informal or wet markets, that is, markets which escape effective health and safety regulation, are often untaxed and unlicensed, and where traditional processing, products and prices predominate
Wet markets key to Africa’s food securityuses the term
Retail: The retail market exists in the wet market, supermarkets, hotels and lodges as well as the mobile vendors. Commercial farmers currently enjoy this market where they have individual connections and sell their mangoes at higher prices.
improving meat safety in a Nigerian wet-markethosted by the FAO.
A well-documented initiative working with butchers in wet markets of Ibadan promoted “positively deviant practices” and peer-to-peer training(on Nigeria).
More wine and spirits are now sold to the consumers and re-sellers through the wholesalers located in the traditional open wet markets (mostly patronized by the low and middle income consumers).
In Sri Lanka, the majority of broiler birds are processed mechanically in semi-automated plants, but a significant number of wet markets, where only poultry is slaughtered, continue to exist.
Despite these broiler figures, 95 percent of poultry in Pakistan is sold live, or through a traditional wet market
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. The OED does not define it as "a Southeast Asian market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce". There's a difference between a term being of SE/E Asian origin and a term being used exclusively for markets from SE/E Asia. Do we really need an RfC for this? — MarkH21 talk 13:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
( edit conflict)That's just not true, several of those sources make specific mention to the geographic distribution. Here are also definitions that specifically mention the South East Asian use:
wet market — noun — South East Asian — A market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. Oxford Lexico
wet market — noun — in south east Asia, a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce macmillan dictionary
What is a Wet Market? The origin of wet market is rooted in the periodic-marketing system in China, a significant feature of China’s domestic trade studied by G. William Skinner (Eastman 1988). Peasants in traditional agrarian Chinese society were largely self-sufficient in producing food and immediate necessities. To satisfy a variety of other specialized needs, they had to go directly to the location for exchange. [...] Present wet markets in Hong Kong are evolved from the periodic-marketing system. An Ethnographic Comparison of Wet Markets and Supermarkets in Hong Kong
We can't take a specific term for a Chinese phenomenon and post-hoc repurpose it to signify something that exists across the world. Then the term "wet market" means nothing, as it is totally synonymous with "food market" — which would be doing everyone a disservice. Then this article should be at food market, and we need to split out Wet market (South East Asia). Carl Fredrik talk 13:37, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. The MacMillan entry is from their crowdsourced Open Dictionary and was only added on 11 March 2020. The SCMP article does not say that the term is a Chinese phenomenon; it describes the etymology of the word from the Chinese language and how the history of HK's wet markets after
Hong Kong’s wet markets arose from China’s agrarian society. The CUHK reference is about
Wet markets in Hong Kong, so yes the Hong Kong wet markets arose from the Chinese agrarian society just as SCMP noted. Where does the Food Safety News article say that wet markets are distinctly Chinese? It has a section on
Traditional Chinese Wet Marketsand describes the history of wet markets in China; that doesn't mean that all wet markets have origins in China.We aren't repurposing the term; we reflect its existing usage in reliable sources. A plethora of reliable sources describe wet markets in places outside of SE/E Asia and all of our defining references simply define the term as it is written in the first sentence of the lead. These sources do not define the term to mean such markets specifically in SE/E Asia and we have to reflect those sources. Otherwise, you're adding "in Southeast/East Asia" to the definition yourself.It may be illuminating to contrast the OED/Lexico definition for "wet market" (which does not specify the market location) with the one for "bazaar" (which does):
A market in a Middle Eastern country. — MarkH21 talk 13:49, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
in a Middle Eastern country. The majority of sources agree that it is a SE/E Asian phenomenon, yes. But they do not say that it is a solely SE/E Asian phenomenon.I don't know if you've realized that food market is a redirect to food marketing, which is about a wholly different subject. — MarkH21 talk 15:36, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Hong Kong’s wet markets arose from China’s agrarian societyand then briefly mentions the history of the Central Market in Hong Kong. The CUHK source talks about how
Present wet markets in Hong Kong are evolved from the periodic-marketing system. You're basing your assertion that we should not include wet markets from outside of SE/E Asia on those two things?The definition of wet market is different from grocery store, butchers shop and green grocer:
a retail trader in fruit and vegetables, wet markets are not only those that are exclusively retail, and not exclusively fruits & vegetables
:a retail shop that primarily sells food, either fresh or preserved, wet markets are markets, not stores
There is a clear consensus that the article's scope should include marketplaces that are not in Southeast Asia and East Asia. Editors found that reliable sources cover "wet markets" in the context of Africa, the Americas, the Middle East, Oceania, West Asia, and South Asia.
The article and its supporting references define a wet market to be a marketplace selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods
. Should the article's scope:
Thank you. 20:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce. This contrasts with a restricted geographic definition like those for bazaar (e.g. OED/Lexico:
A market in a Middle Eastern country.) The OED and a few other references mention that the term is of Southeast Asian origin, but the origin of a term is independent of its usage outside of its place of origin.
Reliable source usage of "wet markets" for Africa, the Americas, the Middle East, Oceania, West Asia, and South Asia
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From the following, there are 53 sources making explicit mention of wet markets in:
(Bolding is mine)
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typically open-airor outdoors (with modern ones moving indoors).
Fresh food markets — where people can buy fruits and vegetables and sometimes seafood and meat — are popular in many places around the world. But "wet markets" are unique to Asian countries. MNN
Live-animal markets (wet markets) provide a source of vertebrate and invertebrate animals for customers in tropical and subtropical regions of the world. […] Wet markets are widespread in Asian countries and in countries where Asian people have migrated.The Lancet
The complex of stalls selling live fish, meat and wild animals is known in the region as a "wet market." [Talking about Wuhan]NPR
Fresh food markets are common in many cities, but wet markets are an Asian phenomenon.NY Times Travel
Wet market is a Singapore and Hong Kong English term that is now being applied to a wide variety of food markets around the developing world, even though many of the markets look like the fresh produce and meat markets in Italy and France. The Atlantic
A common sight across Asia, wet markets traditionally sell fresh produce and live animals, such as fish, in the open air. Reuters
Wet markets — open marketplaces with stalls selling fresh meat and fish — are considered a traditional form of food retail in large Asian cities. Global News
Wet markets are an Asian phenomenon scattered throughout the island of Singapore. Singapoor Vacation Attractions
Hong Kong has numerous wet markets, and they exist throughout Asia, including in Singapore and Thailand. News Decoder
Asia-specific defintion, contrary to CFCF's claim. Almost none of them specify that wet markets are a solely Southeast/East Asian phenomenon. Also, a grocery store is a store, while a wet market isn't a store. — MarkH21 talk 23:50, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
A building or part of a building where goods or services are sold.; Merriam Webster:
a business establishment where usually diversified goods are kept for retail sale.Marketplaces (and wet markets) include outdoor markets with multiple different vendor stalls. Do you need references for that statement too? It's in several of the references at wet market and marketplace, it's not OR. Food hall, market hall, and food court are further examples of specialized marketplaces that must be indoors (with even more specific restrictions for food hall & food court). — MarkH21 talk 00:12, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
this article is open for merging with grocery store, food hall, market hall, or food courtthat you claimed in your !vote above.It's absolutely false that
most of what are traditionally referred to as wet markets are indoors. Is that WP:OR? The aforementioned study on Ghanaian wet markets plus a litany of other references mention open-air wet markets both recent and old, academic and journalistic:
Traditionally, wet markets were housed in temporary sheds or in the open air
The majority of outdoor wet markets have been moved to indoor operations in cities
"Wet markets" refer to traditional open air markets.
ways to improve food safety in traditional open-air markets or 'wet' markets
people continued to go to wet markets ostensibly to buy food supplies [...] most marketgoers, particularly in open-air markets like the one in Air Itam
At such markets, outdoor stalls are squeezed together to form narrow lanes
Wet markets are found the world over, typically open-air sites selling fresh meat, seafood, and produce
Deep in the bowels of Singapore’s Chinatown complex was a large open-air market that stood in stark contrast to the surrounding glitzy skyscrapers and immaculate streets
Traditionally, wet markets were housed in temporary sheds or in the open airand that Nanjing moved all of theirs indoors since 2014. As early as 2008, most Chinese wet markets in cities were moved indoors ( a paper listed above)I haven't seen a single one say that they're typically or traditionally indoors. On the other hand, several of the articles currently referenced in the WP article describe open air wet markets (e.g. Politico, LA Times) or even say that they are
traditionally [...] in the open air( Reuters) or
typically open-air( National Review). Even the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market at the focus of the whole coronavirus pandemic coverage was an outdoor wet market ( Straits Times, USA Today).The point is that wet markets are not exclusively (or even traditionally) indoors, while you claimed that there is little distinction between wet markets and the exclusively indoors grocery stores, food halls, market halls, and food courts. There's a clear distinction with wet markets not being exclusively indoors and not carrying the other defining restrictions that those types of places have. — MarkH21 talk 09:09, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
most are indoorsand that
Option 2 is an unworkable definition and means this article is open for merging with grocery store, food hall, market hall, or food court. I’m glad we agree on this. — MarkH21 talk 11:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
the overwhelming majority, (the entire article reference list apart from what is listed above by MarkH21) uses an Asia-specific definition, I've gone through each of the 89 references in the article's reference list (except for: #13, #14, #48, #58, #59, #60, #61, #67, #70). Not a single one uses an Asia-specific definition. The closest are the Bloomberg opinion article (#47, duplicated in #27 and #57) which describes
The region encompassing the wet market zone from China and South Korea down through most of Southeast Asia has the best record for [...], and the LA Times commentary article, which describes
“Wet” markets are what China calls its fresh food markets.While perusing the 89 references, I also found more that explicitly describe wet markets outside of Asia, which I'll add to the large list above. — MarkH21 talk 08:23, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources which specify it precisely:
The complex of stalls selling live fish, meat and wild animals is known in the region as a "wet market." [Talking about Wuhan]
Fresh food markets are common in many cities, but wet markets are an Asian phenomenon.
Wet market is a Singapore and Hong Kong English term that is now being applied to a wide variety of food markets around the developing world, even though many of the markets look like the fresh produce and meat markets in Italy and France.
What that goes to show is that the term is being widened as of this year, because there is a difference between those sources that are a few years old, and those from this year — one which may rely on WP:CIRCULAR.
[…] known in the region as a "wet market".say? Carl Fredrik talk 13:00, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Fresh food markets — where people can buy fruits and vegetables and sometimes seafood and meat — are popular in many places around the world. But "wet markets" are unique to Asian countries.
One primary reference to a non South-east Asian or Chinese wet market in Ghana is not sufficient to establish WP:DUE. I added 2 secondary sources.
broader use must be based off strong WP:SECONDARY sources, so I gave 10.
broader use must be based off strong WP:SECONDARY sourcesand we need an RfC, so I gave 23.
typically outdoors.
In Spain, Castilian Spanish is called castellano, meanwhile half of Ibero-America also calls it “castellano”. Similarly,
Localized cutaneous leishmaniasis (LCL), known as "chiclero's ulcer" in southeast Mexico, was [...]here has no bearing on how it’s also called that in Guatemala and Belize. Similarly, a source just discussing a wet market in Asia has no bearing on the existence and prevalence of wet markets elsewhere. You’re literally making an indirect inferral, and we need more than 2 direct references + indirect OR inferral + vague hand-waving to
thousands of sources. If a source doesn’t say it, we don’t assume. That’s just WP:STICKTOSOURCE. — MarkH21 talk 20:05, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sourcesfrom WP:OR. — MarkH21 talk 23:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC); fixed "nearly all" 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
nearly alland not
all, which is still false according to the plethora of sources that said that they're
typically open-air, and the
10was in reference to the broader use statement (both now amended in the post above).The
overwhelming majoritydo not use an
Asia-specific definition. Go through the entire reference list, not one does. None of the first 30 references even make any reference to Asia in their definitions, except maybe the opinion article #27. There are thousands of hits on Google about wet markets and Asia; that's different from thousands of articles use a definition of "wet market" that specifically makes reference to Asia. I'm not even sure that there are thousands of reliable sources that talk about wet markets. — MarkH21 talk 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC); updated
a common sight across Asia. One only makes the statement that
Wet markets are widespread in Asian countries and in countries where Asian people have migrated(so countries outside Asia...).So we're left with 2 articles (from MNN and Fodors Travel posted by NYT Travel) make exclusive mention of Asia, 1 (from NPR) says that they are
known in the region as a "wet market", 1 (from the youth news service News Decoder) that says that
they exist throughout Asia, and 1 (from Global News) that they
are considered a traditional form of food retail in large Asian cities. Meanwhile, we have
the markets have not only existed in Asia, but also in Africa and South America) from Hippeus, including at least 3 in the article itself give explicit mentions and descriptions of wet markets outside of SE/E Asia ( CBC, Mongabay, the aforementioned The Atlantic article, another Lancet article), many non-opinion articles ( another The Guardian article, Fox News, Fox News again, The Times of India, Newshub), and not including many opinion articles ( Al Jazeera, IFPRI blog, NY Daily, Financial Review).I'm clearly unconvinced by your arguments for restricting the scope of the article, something that I think requires strong direct RS support, but further discussion (at least between us) seems unproductive since it's now at the point of just
your false summary of it does nothing to weaken my argument. I look forward to seeing what other editors think. — MarkH21 talk 22:28, 13 April 2020 (UTC); updated 12:17, 14 April 2020 (UTC)