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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wet market was copied or moved into Wet markets in China with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wet market was copied or moved into Wet markets in Hong Kong with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
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Currently the Chinese Wikipedia page, and presumably that of other projects, which is linked to this page is " zh:香港街市", i.e. "Hong Kong Street Market". Not necessarily suggesting a change, just noting that here.-- Prisencolin ( talk) 21:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
This is the single most biased article I have ever found on Wikipedia. The Talk Page is a big mess, I'm not sure where I can leave my comment, so I decided to create a separate section. First of all, the article first gives the definition of a wet market as a virtually identical to any definition of any food market, and then proceeds to put a heavy emphasis on Asia and recent virus-related controversies. Why to simultaneously give a wide definition of a term and then use it entirely in a geographically narrowed manner? Game (hunting) article may be controversial to vegetarians, animal rights activists or myslef, but I still would not include those controversy aspects in the definition or anywhere near the beginning of the article. Be it regular "no name" ones or be it top-end gentrified touristy ones like London's Borough Market, Barcelona's La Boqueria or Helsinki's Hakaniemi Market Hall - can anyone in one's right mind truly differentiate between the food markets in Asia and in Europe? I lived in both China and Korea and travelled to other Asian countries. The markets look the same. Yet, both Korea and Japan are not represented here. By the measure of wetness they are even more wet and dependent on wet floors as Korean and Japanese diets tend to be heavy on seafood (mostly sold alive). I know that this may be easily edited any minute, but at the point the lack of these countries on the list seems sadly politicized.
According to the current Wikipedia article, the term wet market was coined in Singapore, where English is the official language. Yet some of the Wikipedia users writing on this Talk Page before me still analyze whether they have met or not such a term in Spain (!), Portugal (!), et cetera. This is an English term. It's not mercado, which is a foreign word. It's not bazaar, which is a loanword, used in English but with a narrowed meaning. Wet market may sound weird to many, but it's not exotic by any means. There are numerous differences between various varieties of English. Singlish is one of them, next to Hiberno-English, South African English and others. Wikipedia's policies prefers no national variety of English over any other, so anyone presenting an argument of "I haven't heard about that term" should keep in mind that his cousin may confuse pavement with side walk. The fact that some journalists use wet market as the term according to their own understanding doesn't mean that it is already coined as such. Even if the word definition is used, on Wikipedia this should be still a matter of a debate and not ultimate truth. Trunk stays the "main woody stem of a tree" in Britain even if the influence of Hollywood movies have made most people understand its American meaning. A Wikipedia article should reflect all the shades of truth and not emphasize one, even if the current Western media narrative exploits on the term for a well-understanded reason.
If we want to describe ONLY Asian style food markets (if such a "style" exists), I strongly suggest changing the name of the article to "Food markets in Asia" or approximate. If we want to discuss the controversies with livestock vending at food markets, we should move to a separate article. "Virus", "hygiene", "Asia" - such words can be used in the name of such an article. If we still want to leave this information here (and I personally think we should), let's do so, but in a separate section - not on the top. Simlarily any copyright controversy that surrounds some film productions do not appear at the top of Wikiedia entries such as Hollywood or Cinema of Nigeria. "Number of victims" does not commence the article on Communism and the word "slavery" does not appear in the first sentences of the entry on Capitalism. Selling fresh produce is not controversial by any means. People read Wikipedia to learn what the wet markets are by definition, history, all the complexity of the term. If they would like to learn about the controversies, let's create a separate section and/or a separate article for them. Dnaoro ( talk) 18:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
The building was split into two markets, a "dry" clothes market fronting on to Francis Street and a "wet market" to the rear, selling fish, fruit and vegetables, accessed from the entrance on John Dillon Streetfor Iveagh Market in Dublin from The Irish Times, or
What happened in countries like Australia, over time the wet markets were shut downfrom an SBS article). I agree with you on your observations. Some wet markets (and analogous markets) offer cooked food yes, but the defining characteristic of wet markets is that they sell fresh meat/fish/produce. If the market also offers other goods, then the fresh meat/fish/produce section is the wet market (e.g. the dry market / wet market separation). If it's integrated, then it would still count as a wet market as a whole. If it no longer sells fresh meat/fish/produce, it's not a wet market anymore. The article should probably only cover such markets in developed countries where they are specifically described as "wet markets" though. — MarkH21 talk 03:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC); updated 07:36, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@
CFCF: The image
File:Ducks in cages at wet market, Shenzhen, China.jpg was removed in the sequence of edits whereby
an IP changed the filenames, I saw a missing file in the article and
removed it, and then seeing what happened
made a dummy edit arguing to leave the image out because it's not a picture of a wet market anyways and we already have a gallery for hygiene concerns
.
On the actual question of whether the picture is appropriate:
give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page(MOS:IMAGELEAD again).
It's not in the "Health concerns" gallery right now, but I wouldn't be opposed to adding it there. — MarkH21 talk 21:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
I gave 3 sources and did not make any judgements. i wrote: 'United States of America New York and San Francisco have multiple wet markets with hygiene issues. [108] [109] Despite US calls for China to close down wet markets, the US keeps their own wet markets open. [110]' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.104.110 ( talk) 19:13, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Since the 1990s the number of [wet markets in New York City] has nearly doubled... But since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, widely thought to have spread from a live animal market in China, a group of New York lawmakers has sought to shut these markets down, fearing that they pose a disease threat. Bills currently before the New York assembly and senate have requested an immediate moratorium on all live animal markets in the city. If passed, they would see the markets closed until a proposed new taskforce investigates concerns about public health and animal welfare in the sector. ... According to the bill before the New York senate, inspectors have issued "a litany of violations" at live animal markets, including sidewalks with blood and feces and "allowing grime to accumulate on butchering equipment". [1]
References
@ 51.6.185.192: The cited sources directly discuss the link between the confusion and poor media coverage of wet markets to Sinophobia:
[...] is undermined by media reports urging for a permanent ban or abolition of these “wet markets”. Such reports often lean heavily on a montage of images from different markets across China with little information on the where and when these were taken, and no acknowledgement of the significant variations in cuisine across different regions of the country [...] In western media, “wet markets” are portrayed as emblems of Chinese otherness: chaotic versions of oriental bazaars, lawless areas where animals that should not be eaten are sold as food, and where what should not be mingled comes together (seafood and poultry, serpents and cattle). This fuels Sinophobia and anxieties of what anthropologists have long identified as “matter out of place” [...] This image is highly flawed, not only because [...], but more practically, because it misrepresents the material and economic reality of these markets. [...] In reality, most seafood, live animal and wholesale markets in China contain far less exotic fare. An enormous variety of different kinds of market are confusingly lumped within the term “wet market”.
Note that there’s nothing about wildlife in this definition. That’s because a wet market doesn’t necessarily include “exotic” wild animals [...] the disproportionate focus on “exotic” food consumption is often tinged with Orientalism and anti-Chinese sentiment
— Vox
Images of Chinese people or other Asians eating insects, snakes, or mice frequently circulate on social media or in clickbait news stories [...] These prejudices can fuel fear and racism. As the virus spreads, the Chinese as a group are more and more likely to be blamed for its incubation and spread [...] it could fuel both government and public prejudices. To be sure, the treatment of wildlife may be at the root of the virus. Wet markets where live animals are sold, mostly for food or medicine, still exist in most Chinese cities, and the Huanan Seafood Market was originally believed to be the source of this outbreak.
— MarkH21 talk 01:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Chiswick Chap ( talk · contribs) 13:16, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
I'll have a go at this one.
wet marketwhen discussing traditional markets in Europe that would otherwise fit the definition so there is a minor WP:SYNTH concern. Otherwise though, the section could definitely otherwise be expanded under the alternative name of "traditional markets" as listed in the lead. What do you think about this? — MarkH21 talk 17:20, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks, both, for getting this over the line. I'm pleased by the article's progress through the GAN cycle and am satisfied that the article is now focused, properly cited, and suitably informative on the topic. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:06, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
![]() | Wet market has been listed as one of the
Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: July 1, 2021. ( Reviewed version). |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Wet market article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wet market was copied or moved into Wet markets in China with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Wet market was copied or moved into Wet markets in Hong Kong with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
![]() | This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
Currently the Chinese Wikipedia page, and presumably that of other projects, which is linked to this page is " zh:香港街市", i.e. "Hong Kong Street Market". Not necessarily suggesting a change, just noting that here.-- Prisencolin ( talk) 21:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
This is the single most biased article I have ever found on Wikipedia. The Talk Page is a big mess, I'm not sure where I can leave my comment, so I decided to create a separate section. First of all, the article first gives the definition of a wet market as a virtually identical to any definition of any food market, and then proceeds to put a heavy emphasis on Asia and recent virus-related controversies. Why to simultaneously give a wide definition of a term and then use it entirely in a geographically narrowed manner? Game (hunting) article may be controversial to vegetarians, animal rights activists or myslef, but I still would not include those controversy aspects in the definition or anywhere near the beginning of the article. Be it regular "no name" ones or be it top-end gentrified touristy ones like London's Borough Market, Barcelona's La Boqueria or Helsinki's Hakaniemi Market Hall - can anyone in one's right mind truly differentiate between the food markets in Asia and in Europe? I lived in both China and Korea and travelled to other Asian countries. The markets look the same. Yet, both Korea and Japan are not represented here. By the measure of wetness they are even more wet and dependent on wet floors as Korean and Japanese diets tend to be heavy on seafood (mostly sold alive). I know that this may be easily edited any minute, but at the point the lack of these countries on the list seems sadly politicized.
According to the current Wikipedia article, the term wet market was coined in Singapore, where English is the official language. Yet some of the Wikipedia users writing on this Talk Page before me still analyze whether they have met or not such a term in Spain (!), Portugal (!), et cetera. This is an English term. It's not mercado, which is a foreign word. It's not bazaar, which is a loanword, used in English but with a narrowed meaning. Wet market may sound weird to many, but it's not exotic by any means. There are numerous differences between various varieties of English. Singlish is one of them, next to Hiberno-English, South African English and others. Wikipedia's policies prefers no national variety of English over any other, so anyone presenting an argument of "I haven't heard about that term" should keep in mind that his cousin may confuse pavement with side walk. The fact that some journalists use wet market as the term according to their own understanding doesn't mean that it is already coined as such. Even if the word definition is used, on Wikipedia this should be still a matter of a debate and not ultimate truth. Trunk stays the "main woody stem of a tree" in Britain even if the influence of Hollywood movies have made most people understand its American meaning. A Wikipedia article should reflect all the shades of truth and not emphasize one, even if the current Western media narrative exploits on the term for a well-understanded reason.
If we want to describe ONLY Asian style food markets (if such a "style" exists), I strongly suggest changing the name of the article to "Food markets in Asia" or approximate. If we want to discuss the controversies with livestock vending at food markets, we should move to a separate article. "Virus", "hygiene", "Asia" - such words can be used in the name of such an article. If we still want to leave this information here (and I personally think we should), let's do so, but in a separate section - not on the top. Simlarily any copyright controversy that surrounds some film productions do not appear at the top of Wikiedia entries such as Hollywood or Cinema of Nigeria. "Number of victims" does not commence the article on Communism and the word "slavery" does not appear in the first sentences of the entry on Capitalism. Selling fresh produce is not controversial by any means. People read Wikipedia to learn what the wet markets are by definition, history, all the complexity of the term. If they would like to learn about the controversies, let's create a separate section and/or a separate article for them. Dnaoro ( talk) 18:30, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
The building was split into two markets, a "dry" clothes market fronting on to Francis Street and a "wet market" to the rear, selling fish, fruit and vegetables, accessed from the entrance on John Dillon Streetfor Iveagh Market in Dublin from The Irish Times, or
What happened in countries like Australia, over time the wet markets were shut downfrom an SBS article). I agree with you on your observations. Some wet markets (and analogous markets) offer cooked food yes, but the defining characteristic of wet markets is that they sell fresh meat/fish/produce. If the market also offers other goods, then the fresh meat/fish/produce section is the wet market (e.g. the dry market / wet market separation). If it's integrated, then it would still count as a wet market as a whole. If it no longer sells fresh meat/fish/produce, it's not a wet market anymore. The article should probably only cover such markets in developed countries where they are specifically described as "wet markets" though. — MarkH21 talk 03:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC); updated 07:36, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
@
CFCF: The image
File:Ducks in cages at wet market, Shenzhen, China.jpg was removed in the sequence of edits whereby
an IP changed the filenames, I saw a missing file in the article and
removed it, and then seeing what happened
made a dummy edit arguing to leave the image out because it's not a picture of a wet market anyways and we already have a gallery for hygiene concerns
.
On the actual question of whether the picture is appropriate:
give readers visual confirmation that they've arrived at the right page(MOS:IMAGELEAD again).
It's not in the "Health concerns" gallery right now, but I wouldn't be opposed to adding it there. — MarkH21 talk 21:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
I gave 3 sources and did not make any judgements. i wrote: 'United States of America New York and San Francisco have multiple wet markets with hygiene issues. [108] [109] Despite US calls for China to close down wet markets, the US keeps their own wet markets open. [110]' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.104.110 ( talk) 19:13, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
Since the 1990s the number of [wet markets in New York City] has nearly doubled... But since the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, widely thought to have spread from a live animal market in China, a group of New York lawmakers has sought to shut these markets down, fearing that they pose a disease threat. Bills currently before the New York assembly and senate have requested an immediate moratorium on all live animal markets in the city. If passed, they would see the markets closed until a proposed new taskforce investigates concerns about public health and animal welfare in the sector. ... According to the bill before the New York senate, inspectors have issued "a litany of violations" at live animal markets, including sidewalks with blood and feces and "allowing grime to accumulate on butchering equipment". [1]
References
@ 51.6.185.192: The cited sources directly discuss the link between the confusion and poor media coverage of wet markets to Sinophobia:
[...] is undermined by media reports urging for a permanent ban or abolition of these “wet markets”. Such reports often lean heavily on a montage of images from different markets across China with little information on the where and when these were taken, and no acknowledgement of the significant variations in cuisine across different regions of the country [...] In western media, “wet markets” are portrayed as emblems of Chinese otherness: chaotic versions of oriental bazaars, lawless areas where animals that should not be eaten are sold as food, and where what should not be mingled comes together (seafood and poultry, serpents and cattle). This fuels Sinophobia and anxieties of what anthropologists have long identified as “matter out of place” [...] This image is highly flawed, not only because [...], but more practically, because it misrepresents the material and economic reality of these markets. [...] In reality, most seafood, live animal and wholesale markets in China contain far less exotic fare. An enormous variety of different kinds of market are confusingly lumped within the term “wet market”.
Note that there’s nothing about wildlife in this definition. That’s because a wet market doesn’t necessarily include “exotic” wild animals [...] the disproportionate focus on “exotic” food consumption is often tinged with Orientalism and anti-Chinese sentiment
— Vox
Images of Chinese people or other Asians eating insects, snakes, or mice frequently circulate on social media or in clickbait news stories [...] These prejudices can fuel fear and racism. As the virus spreads, the Chinese as a group are more and more likely to be blamed for its incubation and spread [...] it could fuel both government and public prejudices. To be sure, the treatment of wildlife may be at the root of the virus. Wet markets where live animals are sold, mostly for food or medicine, still exist in most Chinese cities, and the Huanan Seafood Market was originally believed to be the source of this outbreak.
— MarkH21 talk 01:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Chiswick Chap ( talk · contribs) 13:16, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
I'll have a go at this one.
wet marketwhen discussing traditional markets in Europe that would otherwise fit the definition so there is a minor WP:SYNTH concern. Otherwise though, the section could definitely otherwise be expanded under the alternative name of "traditional markets" as listed in the lead. What do you think about this? — MarkH21 talk 17:20, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Many thanks, both, for getting this over the line. I'm pleased by the article's progress through the GAN cycle and am satisfied that the article is now focused, properly cited, and suitably informative on the topic. Chiswick Chap ( talk) 18:05, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:06, 22 June 2022 (UTC)