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I have noticed that there has been a slight change to the introduction of the article (in that it names countries in the new world of European origin). I have a question or complaints about this. One, what defines origin? If it is being a former colony - all the Americas count (no matter whether is mostly African, European or which ever descent(s)). For argument sake, I'll assume the word origin is intended to denote it's colonial heritage. My complaint is that not every region in the western world is represented. Not one Latin American country is mentioned. This is despite Brazil having over 5 times the population of Canada and 6 times the population of Australia. Shouldn't the countries with the most people be mentioned? Latin America and the West Indies have no representation in this article (despite being included as apart of the western world in the Americas or New World). Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 20:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Race is not culture. Americans whose origins are in whole or part descended from slaves kidnapped from Africa are undeniably European in cultural origin. If one accepts the explanation of David Hackett-Fisher of what happened to the African cultural heritage in the slave-holding colonies, the brutal "seasoning" utterly obliterated all cultural ties of recent Africans to Africa and replaced any African culture with norms of subjected classes in Britain, and any African-American trait distinct from "white" America is an innovation from the culture imposed upon them or an adaptation from some surrounding culture in America. Much the same is likely true in the other colonies of the New World. Any organization or culture directly from Africa was seen as dangerous to those who had slaves. Maybe this was less true of religion (Voodoo, for example) in some places, but even this varied; the English were far more scared of any trace of sorcery than such people as the French and brutally obliterated it wherever it manifested itself. No matter how African someone may look in the Americas, someone of old African origin in the New World is almost certainly much more European than African in culture... even in Haiti, whose population is overwhelmingly of African origin.
More ambiguity applies to persons of First Peoples origin whose contacts with Western civilization are superficial, who have been able to maintain some of the traditions of a "lost" civilization (Aztec, Maya, Chibcha, or Inca), or maintain traditional ways (Inuit) due to the harshness of the terrain. The extent of fusion between Spanish and First-Peoples cultures varies from country to country. In such places where First Peoples still have cultural significance, assimilation has gone both ways. Pbrower2a ( talk) 14:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Western Culture is based in culture, not in race. Neither in the geopolitical map of the Cold War. The religion, language and way of live are main reasons to be occidental. Latin Americans are Christians, mainly Roman Catholics (the religion of the final years of Rome Empire), Latinos speak Spanish, Portuguese or French, all languages derived from Latin. Most countries are presidential democracies, and their culture is derived from Spain, Italy, etc
http://www.analitica.com/bitblioteca/emily_monroy/western.asp
-- Edhu9 ( talk) 19:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense to include Croatia as apart of the western world for three reasons. One, why would they out of all the Slavic countries be concerned western and no one else? Two, Croatia is not apart of the EU (unlike other eastern European countries like Romania and Bulgaria). The EU representing primarily represents western countries. Three, there is no citation. Therefore, they should be taken out until a citation or a reasonable explanation is provided. Personally, I think bias westerners who want to maintain the wealth image of the west included Croatia because they are the wealthiest country in it's general area.
"Why is Croatia counted as the west?" Why not?! For thousand years of its history, Croatia belonged to western civilization. Croatia (as part of Titoist Yugoslavia), was even not part of Soviet bloc. As Czech, I say that being slavic does not mean to be non-western. Slavic countries as Poland, Slovakia, Czech republic, Slovenia and Croatia are unseparable part of western civilization. Do you think, that fourty years of communist rule could change thousand years of previous history. After all, cold war is more than twenty years over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 12:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
In some ways or another, all Slavic countries are culturally related. This is a large and culturally recognizable region in Europe that tends to be synonymously associated with being Communist Soviet satelittes in the second half of the 20th C. Some of the non-Slavic countries of eastern Europe which aren't Slavic. Perhaps the other non-Slavic countries of eastern Europe not on this list could be included (Hungary, Albania, Romania). I'd say no in all cases except for Hungary because of geography and extensive influence from the Soviet Union. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
All Slavic countries are linguistically, not culturally related. For thousand years, western and eastern Slavs underwent totally different historical and cultural development. For approximatly fourty years, they were oppressed by communists. Do you think that fourty years long unhappy period could overshadow previous thousand years long history. After all, Cold War is over.
Slovenia, and not Croatia, is the richest of the former Yugoslav states.
The Serbs and Croatians may speak essentially the same language, but their cultural identities are very different. The Serbs became Orthodox (except for the Bogomil sect that mas-converted to Islam); the Croats became Catholics. The Serbs endured nearly half a millennium of Turkish rule that essentially cut them off from western currents; the Croats had a much shorter time under Turkish rule and came under Austro-Hungarian rule that shoved Croatia into the West. The Croats seemed content within the Dual Monarchy. In 1918 the Croats entered a marriage of political convenience with the Serbs on linguistic grounds in the formation of Yugoslavia with Serbia as its core, but in 1941 Nazi Germany found it easy to separate Croatia from Serbia and establish an outright ally in Croatia. That division was intended to be permanent, but Tito's partisans and the major allies forced a restoration of the national "marriage of convenience". That lasted until the 1990s.
Question: do the Croats have more nostalgia for Vienna -- or Belgrade?
re: Soviet influence in central and Balkan Europe
Soviet influence over central and Balkan Europe was entirely the result of military force. Cultural influence behind the Iron Curtain has proved superficial and ephemeral, much as was the case with the Russian puppet states in Finland and "Congress" Poland in the 19th Century that the Russian Empire effectively annexed for far longer than the 40-45 years of Communist rule. It is arguable that culture shapes politics more than politics shape culture. Pbrower2a ( talk) 15:30, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Greek Culture is/was Eastern Orthodox. Some people confuse Ancient Greece & Greek culture (which was cradle of early western civilisation) and the Easter Roman Byzntine Orthodox Empire (opposite of the Western /real/ Roman Empire) Moreover The attitude of Greeks were hostile with western christian (catholic protestant west) until their war of independence against the Ottomans. Because many material support and voluntary soldiers came from western powers in the era of greek freedom fight, they changed their attitude positively towards the westerners. Their architecture (from byzantine times) clothes applied technology fine arts literature etc.... were clearly non western, most of their civilisation was inherited by the Middle-Eastern world rather than the west.
Ancient Greece wasn't western because the idea of what was western at that point in time hadn't exist. It was Greek. There wasn't necessarily an idea of what made Greece so related to the rest of Europe at the time. If there had been, Greece wouldn't have been so unique. We speak about Ancient Greece because of it's uniqueness. Not it's similarities to neighboring areas.
Whether or not ancient Greece history and culture being the cradle of western civilization is a bit arbitrary because there are many things that can and how we measure that is very difficult. Greeks changing their attitudes toward the west doesn't make them family members. It doesn't mean they aren't related. They aren't the same though. It'd be like saying if two people get married and both of the families went from hating to loving each other, does that make them blood related? No. Does it make them loving family yes? In other words, Greece has a lot to do with the west, but it's not the west. People will manipulate that too their liking though. Western scholars love to steal credit of Ancient Greece as to being their own. By including Greece into modern day western definition, it further legitimizes that via manipulation.
The question isn't if Greece is the symbolic homeland of the west. The question is what is ancient Greece smybol to modern Greeks. And that is Greece. Not the west. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
baltic-slavic peoples are eastern europeans and not westerns..finland is part western only — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.118.70.227 ( talk) 06:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
You are wrong! All baltic people and all western and south-westrn Slavs are part of Western world because of their history and culture. Fourty years of cold war couldn´t overshadow previous thousand years of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 13:49, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I removed:
because I couldn't see why he was notable, or why his opinion deserved prominence William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I seem to disagree with User:Martin acero the iron man about what should be in this [1]. Anyone else care? William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
And how are we to determine which parts are and aren't? And excluding areas which are legitimately predominantly culturally indigenous, why should mainstream Spanish and Portuguese speaking Latin America be any more of an except to the west than the US or Canada? Face it. And why shouldn't we exclude Native American, Inuit and Alaskan Native dominated areas if we are to exclude parts of Guatemala, Paraguay and Bolivia? It is because Americans, Canadians and other wealthy westerners' don't like the idea of including or fully includly Latin Americans into the identity of the west. It is an economic bias that has nothing to do with culture. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Someone apparently decided to replace every instance of "West" or "Western" with the term "Ponka" a term which seems to refer to a tribe of sioux native americans in Missouri. It made for interesting references such as "the Peace of Ponkaphalia".
I went through and replaced every Ponka with West or Western. I believe I fixed it but if you see something else amiss, please fix. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jeremymclain (
talk •
contribs) 16:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I removed the map of the West in Europe according to Huntington (File:Västeuropa-karta.png) for several reasons:
(1) Huntington's views are discussed in further detail in the later 'Other views' section;
(2) In that later section, there is already a world map of Huntington's thesis, as opposed to this one just of Europe;
(3) Detailing Huntington's thesis in this introduction section seems inconsistent with the rest of page's layout, which beings with introducing the concept, then traces its history and outlines modern definitions, and only then looks at other views;
(4) The way Huntington's views are presented here seems to suggest that his view should be taken as fact, rather than as a controversial thesis (i.e. as pointed out in other parts of the article, the following is debatable, yet stated here as fact: “Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.”) Michael Slana ( talk) 19:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Why is the intro statement about the western hemisphere relevant? The "Western world" is of course the western part of the Eurasian continent, the "Old world", that was known since the ancient Greeks and earlier. The western hemisphere couldn't be relevant, since quite a few nations that even considered the concept of a "hemisphere" would place that "hemisphere" subdivision line on the "most important spot on the planet" – namely their respective capital. England was the final winner, but that doesn't make any hemisphere relevant at all, since the chance that the hemisphere subdivision line would cut the "Western world" apart was overwhelming. The second para is nonsense and bad reasoning. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 21:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
The term western hemisphere was habitually used so out of it's literal definition that it eventually gained acceptance to eventually mean the Americas. For example, when JFK said any attack on a country on the western hemisphere from the Soviet Union would be considered an attack on the US, I doubt he was dividing up England and African countries based on that exact definition. He meant the Americas. Although it should be avoided because of geographical correctness, the terms are still used interchangeably. I agree that we should do our best to avoid using the words western hemisphere if it is in the context of the Americas (because saying America is simply more accurate). Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:18, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
The religion in europe map has many mistakes and is rather misleading. The map shows for example - countries that have a non religious majority Czech republic - Eastern Germany as religious - shows catholic areas in the Netherlands - Amsterdam, Achterhoek, Twente- in Germany -Baden Wurtemberg - and areas in Switzerland as protestant.
However, the lack of sourcing is the main concern. Anyway a map like article text does not get a free pass on WP:V and WP:RS. So please add a reliable (NON WIKI) source or this map will have to be removed in order to comply with WIKIPEDIA quality standards. Grsd ( talk) 21:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The area shown in the netherlands is rather accurate. I find the map to be informative. We could leave the map and search for references or change parts of it if you find it more constructive. I am no expert on the mather so maybe it would be better to ask an editor with more knowledge on the matter. Ragards-- Arcillaroja ( talk) 15:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)-- Arcillaroja ( talk) 15:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, historically, as you say, The Netherlands as a protestant country was quite different from what it is now. It is a well known fact that south of the Maas the population is predominantly catholic whereas north of the mass they are predominantly protestant. Of Course, this is a just an estimation for illustrative purposes. It would be counterproductive to check every city for statistics in order to present it in the map. The polarization and division between protestants and catholics in dutch society ~was there as recent as 50 years ago. Since then there have been mixing and Dutch society tends to be less inclined to religion than they did before. There are many sources that support the map such as the CIA. I don't have the intention of restoring the map but I think that you are rather aggressive when removing it instead of improving it. Arcillaroja ( talk) 19:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Grsd ( talk) 10:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I recommend to any one who intends to edit this article to be kind and benevolent, and help Wikipedia to expand the Eastern world. 90.166.249.165 ( talk) 02:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Why is there almost no mention of the British Empire? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.162.159 ( talk) 16:12, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
The top map about Western cultures needs some chnages (File:Westerncultures map.png)
1. Is Israel part of the West? No Semitic nation was part of the West historically, as far as I know.
2. Do we have to include all present day countries that are members of the European Union like Bulgaria and Romania, which are just north of Greece? The European Union is obviously Western type of community organization and if one country is accepted as a member, therefore it has to be seen as an equal to the other Western members.
Headstonesjk ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:55, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Sincephase CZ ( talk) 22:32, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Nobody knows the exact boundaries of the western-world and still its a topic of debate. So the map itself unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.144.39 ( talk) 14:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
While the Levant has been considered part of the "East", it doesn't change the fact that Western civilization owes much to that chunk of land and the people on it. Where do you think Jesus walked? Who he talked to? Where his early disciples were and what they thought? Anyhow, modern Israel is a Western country, at least in its Jewish majority sections; its dominant population is Ashkenazi Jewish, a group so thoroughly Europeanized that it has cultural practices and connections more in common with Europe than with the Palestinians and Arabs around it. Maybe, in time, it might become a "Judeo-Islamic-Eastern" country (well, it's already taken to shwarama and felafel), but most of the people probably had grandparents and great grandparents who grew up on European soil and knew Europeans well. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 09:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
This passage is really nonsense: "Generally speaking, the current consensus would locate the West, at the very least, in the cultures and peoples of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and a great part of Central and South America like Argentina and Brazil. There is debate among some as to whether Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) [13][14] is in a category of its own. The argument supporting Central and Eastern Europe being a part of the West is that Central and Eastern European countries such as Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Romania are now part of the European Union and NATO, which mostly comprise Western countries. However, there are distinct cultural differences; the impact of Communism on these cultures in the 20th Century was great". Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia and Slovenia are integral part of Western civilization. Fourty years of communist oppression could not erase previous thousand years long history. Do anybody really think that Czech republic is less western than Brazil or Argentina?!! — Preceding unsignedcomment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 06:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Well. As for sources to passage I have criticized, there is said something about agriculture in post-communist Europe. One of these publications is fifteen years old. Quite outdated, isn´t it? After all, do you really think, that agriculture in Poland, Lithuania or Hungary was so much different from agriculture in southern Italy, Spain or Ireland during its history. Not to mention Brazil, if this latin american country is (according to someone) more western than these undoubtedly european countries? There is said, that impact of communism to these countries was great. Maybe. But the impact of previous thousand years of belonging to western civilization was far much greater. I am from Czech republic. Do you really think, that I do not belong to western world whilst Mexicans, Brazilians or Argentinians are considered to be westerners?! As for reliable sources which could serve as counter-arguments, what about Samuel Huntington (The Clash of Civilizations)? Or Milan Kundera (The Stolen West or the Tragedy of Central Europe)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 20:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Moved to new section Coastside ( talk) 16:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Source [13] does not support the discussed claim, it does not speak about term "Western World" whatsoever. Can table header of certain particular agricultural statistics be considered a source for definition of Western world in source [14]? Can someone please check the source [15], that seem to be another agriculture focused topic with little connection to definition of Western World? The entire claim looks like vandalism. 90.177.169.200 ( talk) 18:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Jojalozzo, you reverted some recent unexplained edits and asked for comments on the talk page. I didn't do these edits and can't explain all of them. However, I did note that there is a grammatical error that was fixed, which you reverted. The sentence "Although geographically not located in Western Europe," needs the word "Europe" in order to make sense. Also, it was proper to remove the wikilink for Western Europe. WP:OVERLINK says links should appear only once in an article. Since Western Europe was wikilinked earlier (in the first paragraph of the Introduction), it should not be linked again here. Similarly, "Central and Eastern Europe" are linked multiple times in the same paragraph, which was fixed in the edits you reverted. Coastside ( talk) 14:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Why should Huntington map be given so much relevance? Only ignorant Americans can think that Latin America is not part of the West.
1. By the way America was the name given first to South America, then it was applied to the Northern Part (Just an example of how "Americans steal concepts")Do they now want to steal also the Western concept? Pathetic.
2. Western Civilization was born out of "Greekness" and "Latinity". If anything "Latin" America is more America and more Western than the US themselves, of Anglo-Barbarian origins!
Some people here, beginning by Huntington and others trying to magnify his works, should get a real education before editing this article or anything else, because they make "Americans" look pretty ignorant!. Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk • contribs)
Generally incorrect!. What happens is that some people are more than fed up with racist and ignorant Americans contaminating Wiki all over! Go to school, or wake up! Why should the US be considered the West if Mexico or Argentina are not? Some people are more than fed up that some Americans think that they are the only "everything" in the world an use wiki for their cheap propaganda!. Is it based on race-racist criteria? who says that civilization is based on race-racist criteria?. Besides, if it were so, then the US should be excluded, such a multiracial country as it is! but of course the Western concept is cultural. So, why are we supposed to continue to stand so much ignorance and the-world-is-like-my-uncle-Johnny-told-me-in-the-Bill-hills theories. Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 20:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
And some people are also fed up with the descendants of Anglo-Saxon barbarians and the like trying to appropriate the civilization that was born in Greece and Rome, the cradle of Greekness and Latinity, the exporters of their civilization to the rest of Europe, with Christianity, with the Roman or Latin language, Roman law and culture, all of them directly incorporated into Latin Europe first and expanded to Latin America later. Maybe we have to remind here that Spanish and Portuguese are Latin languages, that their worlds are Roman Catholic, that their Law systems and fundamental parts of their cultures were laid down by the Romans?. Who is generally wrong? Anglos and Saxons were considered Barbarians in the eyes of the founders of Western civilization. Now their descendants, that became Westernized later, want to appropriate that? Again to school!, and hope it is a good one, because what I can read here is pathetic! Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 00:07, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know that may be the case for Central america, for example. Yet Argentina has a higher percentage of white people than the US, for example. what about the US then? Still, race plays no role here, and what a group of people with certain political ideas may think is irrelevant. On top, Latin america is a huge and diverse place, it is not Californian Hispanics or the Northern Mexican border. Americans should stop being so provincial. Coon.
We should have a section on the history of the term. The West was invented in the 16th century. It originally referred to the Catholic and Protestant countries of Europe, as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox countries. Even though Catholic and Protestant countries didn't patch up their differences until the Peace of Westphalia (1648) they had temporary alliances for sea battle against the Turks in the 1500s. That's when the term Western came into general use. ("Civilization" wasn't added until centuries later.) Since then the definitions and boundaries of the Western world have shifted, but have usually been defined in terms of shared Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman heritage, as well as a shared history in the Renaissance. This is discussed extensively in Silvia Federici's book Enduring Western civilization. Even though the author is a flaming leftist, the book is well-researched and spot on. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 21:25, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I just noticed that we have an unregistered used here who ends every post with an offensive four-letter word that begins with c. The word is capitalized and in its own sentence. The user's history indicates a total of 16 posts (on all articles) all of them ending with the word in question. Does this word mean something else in Spanish? I looked, but couldn't find anything. Is it Trourette syndrome? Maybe it's a username that the user doesn't know is offensive in English. The word still occurs three times on this talk page. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 01:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Please, can anyone fix the map of Samuel P. Huntington in the section "other views"? In his work, as we know, Samuel P. Huntington doesn't include Latin America as west but the map in the section "other views", attributed to him, does. I disagree with his view of west but if we want cite his work, let's do it correctly. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.42.195.164 ( talk) 10:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
BaodlywoaterAlbanian ( talk) 01:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
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Hi there.
I think we should keep in the intro only the buildings that show a link between the Greco-Roman architecture and the modern period: that is, the French Assemblée nationale and the American Supreme Court (the legacy is obvious notably with the colums).
The other pictures do not show this heritage, but they are still interesting: maybe we should put the British Parliament somewhere below in the article with a caption that reads something like The Western World has been a powerful force for democratisation around the world. Pictured here is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, dubbed the "mother of Parliament".
We could use the image of the Christ redeemer with a caption such as Christianity is one of the fundamental components of the Western World.
What do you think? Huiva ( talk) 12:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
rio de janeiro western?lmao rio de janeiro have much sub westerners in the population of that town only south brazil and sao Paulo have more western influence the rest of brazil have small western contribuition and more native/Hispanic/et cetera-other influences
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Samuel P. Huntington includes Papua New Guinea in his vision of the Western world... and there are nomadic peoples living in bushes over there... I mean, jeez... @ User:Concus Cretus Ernio48 ( talk) 15:23, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, yes, the map. We seem to be disagreeing about exactly which map to use. Would someone like to propose a criterion by which we might decide which one to use, rather than everyone just picking their favourite? William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@ William M. Connolley:, @ Ernio48: Has anyone verified that page 26 of the 1997 The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order has the current ConcusCretus map, as I have only found one similar to File:Clash of Civilizations mapn2.png ? X1\ ( talk) 22:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Nil Einne: Here is CC's new map (below). Very different map, with very similar problems. CC's new map is also not in Huntington's book. The problem is not and never has been whether the author's works can be used as a reference in this article. This is not one of the author's maps, it is CC's. CC, please provide the page and sentence in the author's book that details all of and only the countries you have included in your map, as has been previously requested. X1\ ( talk) 14:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
This is not an article about Huntington's theory, and using a lead map that only uses Huntington's very limited definition of the West, which excludes Greece (traditionally considered the foundation of Western philosophy) is a severe violation of NPOV. Plumber ( talk) 06:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Note: the "File:Western world Samuel P Huntington.svg" has been changed yet again; French Guiana (with "gradient"). X1\ ( talk) 23:49, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
"Gradient" not explained (no "gradients" in book), and the Philippines is even worse (only part is outlined, and it appears just the beach shore is "Western"). X1\ ( talk) 21:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I meant “ Cold War definition” and not “ Cold Wa rin my edit summary. Thank you. Anu-Dingir (Please offer a sacrifice!!!!) 04:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Jeuryabuese, the sources clearly states Judaism:
Do you have any valid reason to state before this is being taken to an admin? Infantom ( talk) 22:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I have added a section about Judaism with additional sources. I also modified the lead per MOS:LEAD. Infantom ( talk) 23:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I have removed the following text [6] on the grounds that it is not backed by the sources used. Ditto with this pic [7], it is totally undue, especially its placement at the top of the article. Khirurg ( talk) 16:28, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Several strong claims are currently being pushed in the article by a couple of editors (Infantom, LittleDipper), for example that "The West was and is founded upon Christianity, ... through which it is founded upon... Ancient Israel/Judaism", or that "Ancient Israelite Judaism is the foundation of Western morality." and several others to that effect. These are very strong claims. In addition the two editors are edit-warring to have this picture
placedg it at the very top of the article for maximum visibility. Below I analyze the whether the claim "| "The West was and is founded upon Christianity, ... through which it is founded upon... Ancient Israel/Judaism" is backed by the sources.
Source | Verdict | Comment |
---|---|---|
Andrea C. Paterson (2009). Three Monotheistic Faiths - Judaism, Christianity, Islam: An Analysis and Brief History. AuthorHouse. pp. 39–. ISBN 978-1-4343-9246-6."Judaism has influenced western civilization in a multitude of ways" | No | "Influence" is not the same as "founding", published is Authorhouse, a self-publishing outfit [8], does not meet WP:RS |
Marvin Perry (1 January 2012). Western Civilization: A Brief History, Volume I: To 1789. Cengage Learning. pp. 33–. ISBN 1-111-83720-1."We talk of a Judeo-Christian tradition as an essential component of western civilization" | No | Nothing about "Ancient Israel", "essential component" not the same as "founding". High school textbook, low quality tertiary source, to be avoided per WP:PSTS |
Role of Judaism in Western culture and civilization, "Judaism has played a significant role in the development of Western culture because of its uniqurelationship with Christianity, the dominant religious force in the West". Judaism at Encyclopædia Britannica | No | Many cultures played a "significant role in the development of western culture, but that's not the same as founding it. Britannica is a generalist tertiary source best avoided per WP:PSTS. |
Jonathan Daly (19 December 2013). The Rise of Western Power: A Comparative History of Western Civilization. A&C Black. pp. 21–. ISBN 978-1-4411-1851-6."Another people contributed richly to the rise of the west without ever founding an empire of ruling a large territory: the Jews." | No | "contributed richly", definitely, founding, no. |
Prof. Art Marmorstein, Northern State University, ANCIENT ISRAEL (THE HEBREWS) "Still, the Israelites had a major impact on Western civilization" | No | Excerpt from website, self-published, does not meet RS. |
Cambridge University Historical Series, An Essay on Western Civilization in Its Economic Aspects, p.40: Hebraism, like Hellenism, has been an all-important factor in the development of Western Civilization; Judaism, as the precursor of Christianity, has indirectly had had much to do with shaping the ideals and morality of western nations since the christian era. | No | Key word here is "indirectly" |
Caltron J.H Hayas, Christianity and Western Civilization (1953),Stanford University Press, p.2: That certain distinctive features of our Western civilization — the civilization of western Europe and of America— have been shaped chiefly by Judaeo–Graeco–Christianity, Catholic and Protestant. | No | "certain features have been shaped", yes, "founding", no |
Horst Hutter, University of New York, Shaping the Future: Nietzsche's New Regime of the Soul And Its Ascetic Practices (2004), p.111:three mighty founders of Western culture, namely Socrates, Jesus, and Plato. | No | Meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek |
Religions in Global Society – Page 146, Peter Beyer – 2006 | unknown | No quote provided |
Fred Reinhard Dallmayr, Dialogue Among Civilizations: Some Exemplary Voices (2004), p.22: Western civilization is also sometimes described as "Christian" or "Judaeo- Christian" civilization. | No | "sometimes described" is very different from founding |
About half the sources are low quality or do not meet WP:RS. None of them explicitly back the strong claim that "Western civilization is founded upon Judaism". Based on this, I think it's fine to say in the lede that Judaism had a significant effect/contribution/influence/shaped western civ, but not that Western civilization is "founded" upon it on par with ancient Greece and Rome. "Ancient Israel" is an anachronism and not used by any sources, and should not be used here either. I also feel the picture is WP:UNDUE, especially at the top of the article. Khirurg ( talk) 06:13, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
References
The list of books which have celebrated Greece as the "cradle" of the West is endless; two more examples are Charles Freeman's The Greek Achievement: The Foundation of the Western World (1999) and Bruce Thornton's Greek Ways: How the Greeks Created Western Civilization (2000)
The reason why even such a sophisticated historian as Pagden can do it is that the idea that Greece is the cradle of civilisation is so much rooted in western minds and school curicula as to be taken for granted.
In 1979, a friend of de Boer's invited him to join a team of scientists that was going to Greece to assess the suitability of the ... But the idea of learning more about Greece — the cradle of Western civilization, a fresh example of tectonic forces at ...
I'm going to dive into this discussion with the suggestion that the section "Influences of Judaism" be removed entirely. For one thing, it is nestled under the heading "Historical divisions" which is entirely a geographical section and has little to nothing to do with the cultural influences of the "Western world". Secondly, there is already a reference to the Biblical Christian culture's influence on Western culture, and since the entire argument of the "Influences of Judaism" section appears to be that Judaism, as the foundation of Christianity, formed a large part of the basis of the Western world, that argument is already encapsulated in the proper place, with Wikilinks to further detailed articles on the topic. The point of this section in this article appears to be to push a particular point of view rather than to impart any real information. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
How is the oracle of Delphi the most representative thing about Western culture that it must be the image of the first paragraph of the body? 112.211.192.58 ( talk) 22:00, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Hello, why confusing? The colombian exchange is important. Then the caption for that image is better if elaborated. Then the change to the very first paragraph was not me but I agree with it. 2A00:23C4:7155:6D00:8846:F5D:F916:DC03 ( talk) 09:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
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I have noticed that there has been a slight change to the introduction of the article (in that it names countries in the new world of European origin). I have a question or complaints about this. One, what defines origin? If it is being a former colony - all the Americas count (no matter whether is mostly African, European or which ever descent(s)). For argument sake, I'll assume the word origin is intended to denote it's colonial heritage. My complaint is that not every region in the western world is represented. Not one Latin American country is mentioned. This is despite Brazil having over 5 times the population of Canada and 6 times the population of Australia. Shouldn't the countries with the most people be mentioned? Latin America and the West Indies have no representation in this article (despite being included as apart of the western world in the Americas or New World). Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 20:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Race is not culture. Americans whose origins are in whole or part descended from slaves kidnapped from Africa are undeniably European in cultural origin. If one accepts the explanation of David Hackett-Fisher of what happened to the African cultural heritage in the slave-holding colonies, the brutal "seasoning" utterly obliterated all cultural ties of recent Africans to Africa and replaced any African culture with norms of subjected classes in Britain, and any African-American trait distinct from "white" America is an innovation from the culture imposed upon them or an adaptation from some surrounding culture in America. Much the same is likely true in the other colonies of the New World. Any organization or culture directly from Africa was seen as dangerous to those who had slaves. Maybe this was less true of religion (Voodoo, for example) in some places, but even this varied; the English were far more scared of any trace of sorcery than such people as the French and brutally obliterated it wherever it manifested itself. No matter how African someone may look in the Americas, someone of old African origin in the New World is almost certainly much more European than African in culture... even in Haiti, whose population is overwhelmingly of African origin.
More ambiguity applies to persons of First Peoples origin whose contacts with Western civilization are superficial, who have been able to maintain some of the traditions of a "lost" civilization (Aztec, Maya, Chibcha, or Inca), or maintain traditional ways (Inuit) due to the harshness of the terrain. The extent of fusion between Spanish and First-Peoples cultures varies from country to country. In such places where First Peoples still have cultural significance, assimilation has gone both ways. Pbrower2a ( talk) 14:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Western Culture is based in culture, not in race. Neither in the geopolitical map of the Cold War. The religion, language and way of live are main reasons to be occidental. Latin Americans are Christians, mainly Roman Catholics (the religion of the final years of Rome Empire), Latinos speak Spanish, Portuguese or French, all languages derived from Latin. Most countries are presidential democracies, and their culture is derived from Spain, Italy, etc
http://www.analitica.com/bitblioteca/emily_monroy/western.asp
-- Edhu9 ( talk) 19:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't make sense to include Croatia as apart of the western world for three reasons. One, why would they out of all the Slavic countries be concerned western and no one else? Two, Croatia is not apart of the EU (unlike other eastern European countries like Romania and Bulgaria). The EU representing primarily represents western countries. Three, there is no citation. Therefore, they should be taken out until a citation or a reasonable explanation is provided. Personally, I think bias westerners who want to maintain the wealth image of the west included Croatia because they are the wealthiest country in it's general area.
"Why is Croatia counted as the west?" Why not?! For thousand years of its history, Croatia belonged to western civilization. Croatia (as part of Titoist Yugoslavia), was even not part of Soviet bloc. As Czech, I say that being slavic does not mean to be non-western. Slavic countries as Poland, Slovakia, Czech republic, Slovenia and Croatia are unseparable part of western civilization. Do you think, that fourty years of communist rule could change thousand years of previous history. After all, cold war is more than twenty years over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 12:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
In some ways or another, all Slavic countries are culturally related. This is a large and culturally recognizable region in Europe that tends to be synonymously associated with being Communist Soviet satelittes in the second half of the 20th C. Some of the non-Slavic countries of eastern Europe which aren't Slavic. Perhaps the other non-Slavic countries of eastern Europe not on this list could be included (Hungary, Albania, Romania). I'd say no in all cases except for Hungary because of geography and extensive influence from the Soviet Union. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 20:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
All Slavic countries are linguistically, not culturally related. For thousand years, western and eastern Slavs underwent totally different historical and cultural development. For approximatly fourty years, they were oppressed by communists. Do you think that fourty years long unhappy period could overshadow previous thousand years long history. After all, Cold War is over.
Slovenia, and not Croatia, is the richest of the former Yugoslav states.
The Serbs and Croatians may speak essentially the same language, but their cultural identities are very different. The Serbs became Orthodox (except for the Bogomil sect that mas-converted to Islam); the Croats became Catholics. The Serbs endured nearly half a millennium of Turkish rule that essentially cut them off from western currents; the Croats had a much shorter time under Turkish rule and came under Austro-Hungarian rule that shoved Croatia into the West. The Croats seemed content within the Dual Monarchy. In 1918 the Croats entered a marriage of political convenience with the Serbs on linguistic grounds in the formation of Yugoslavia with Serbia as its core, but in 1941 Nazi Germany found it easy to separate Croatia from Serbia and establish an outright ally in Croatia. That division was intended to be permanent, but Tito's partisans and the major allies forced a restoration of the national "marriage of convenience". That lasted until the 1990s.
Question: do the Croats have more nostalgia for Vienna -- or Belgrade?
re: Soviet influence in central and Balkan Europe
Soviet influence over central and Balkan Europe was entirely the result of military force. Cultural influence behind the Iron Curtain has proved superficial and ephemeral, much as was the case with the Russian puppet states in Finland and "Congress" Poland in the 19th Century that the Russian Empire effectively annexed for far longer than the 40-45 years of Communist rule. It is arguable that culture shapes politics more than politics shape culture. Pbrower2a ( talk) 15:30, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Greek Culture is/was Eastern Orthodox. Some people confuse Ancient Greece & Greek culture (which was cradle of early western civilisation) and the Easter Roman Byzntine Orthodox Empire (opposite of the Western /real/ Roman Empire) Moreover The attitude of Greeks were hostile with western christian (catholic protestant west) until their war of independence against the Ottomans. Because many material support and voluntary soldiers came from western powers in the era of greek freedom fight, they changed their attitude positively towards the westerners. Their architecture (from byzantine times) clothes applied technology fine arts literature etc.... were clearly non western, most of their civilisation was inherited by the Middle-Eastern world rather than the west.
Ancient Greece wasn't western because the idea of what was western at that point in time hadn't exist. It was Greek. There wasn't necessarily an idea of what made Greece so related to the rest of Europe at the time. If there had been, Greece wouldn't have been so unique. We speak about Ancient Greece because of it's uniqueness. Not it's similarities to neighboring areas.
Whether or not ancient Greece history and culture being the cradle of western civilization is a bit arbitrary because there are many things that can and how we measure that is very difficult. Greeks changing their attitudes toward the west doesn't make them family members. It doesn't mean they aren't related. They aren't the same though. It'd be like saying if two people get married and both of the families went from hating to loving each other, does that make them blood related? No. Does it make them loving family yes? In other words, Greece has a lot to do with the west, but it's not the west. People will manipulate that too their liking though. Western scholars love to steal credit of Ancient Greece as to being their own. By including Greece into modern day western definition, it further legitimizes that via manipulation.
The question isn't if Greece is the symbolic homeland of the west. The question is what is ancient Greece smybol to modern Greeks. And that is Greece. Not the west. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
baltic-slavic peoples are eastern europeans and not westerns..finland is part western only — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.118.70.227 ( talk) 06:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
You are wrong! All baltic people and all western and south-westrn Slavs are part of Western world because of their history and culture. Fourty years of cold war couldn´t overshadow previous thousand years of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 13:49, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I removed:
because I couldn't see why he was notable, or why his opinion deserved prominence William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I seem to disagree with User:Martin acero the iron man about what should be in this [1]. Anyone else care? William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
And how are we to determine which parts are and aren't? And excluding areas which are legitimately predominantly culturally indigenous, why should mainstream Spanish and Portuguese speaking Latin America be any more of an except to the west than the US or Canada? Face it. And why shouldn't we exclude Native American, Inuit and Alaskan Native dominated areas if we are to exclude parts of Guatemala, Paraguay and Bolivia? It is because Americans, Canadians and other wealthy westerners' don't like the idea of including or fully includly Latin Americans into the identity of the west. It is an economic bias that has nothing to do with culture. Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Someone apparently decided to replace every instance of "West" or "Western" with the term "Ponka" a term which seems to refer to a tribe of sioux native americans in Missouri. It made for interesting references such as "the Peace of Ponkaphalia".
I went through and replaced every Ponka with West or Western. I believe I fixed it but if you see something else amiss, please fix. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jeremymclain (
talk •
contribs) 16:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I removed the map of the West in Europe according to Huntington (File:Västeuropa-karta.png) for several reasons:
(1) Huntington's views are discussed in further detail in the later 'Other views' section;
(2) In that later section, there is already a world map of Huntington's thesis, as opposed to this one just of Europe;
(3) Detailing Huntington's thesis in this introduction section seems inconsistent with the rest of page's layout, which beings with introducing the concept, then traces its history and outlines modern definitions, and only then looks at other views;
(4) The way Huntington's views are presented here seems to suggest that his view should be taken as fact, rather than as a controversial thesis (i.e. as pointed out in other parts of the article, the following is debatable, yet stated here as fact: “Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.”) Michael Slana ( talk) 19:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Why is the intro statement about the western hemisphere relevant? The "Western world" is of course the western part of the Eurasian continent, the "Old world", that was known since the ancient Greeks and earlier. The western hemisphere couldn't be relevant, since quite a few nations that even considered the concept of a "hemisphere" would place that "hemisphere" subdivision line on the "most important spot on the planet" – namely their respective capital. England was the final winner, but that doesn't make any hemisphere relevant at all, since the chance that the hemisphere subdivision line would cut the "Western world" apart was overwhelming. The second para is nonsense and bad reasoning. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 21:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
The term western hemisphere was habitually used so out of it's literal definition that it eventually gained acceptance to eventually mean the Americas. For example, when JFK said any attack on a country on the western hemisphere from the Soviet Union would be considered an attack on the US, I doubt he was dividing up England and African countries based on that exact definition. He meant the Americas. Although it should be avoided because of geographical correctness, the terms are still used interchangeably. I agree that we should do our best to avoid using the words western hemisphere if it is in the context of the Americas (because saying America is simply more accurate). Tom 72.185.162.37 ( talk) 19:18, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
The religion in europe map has many mistakes and is rather misleading. The map shows for example - countries that have a non religious majority Czech republic - Eastern Germany as religious - shows catholic areas in the Netherlands - Amsterdam, Achterhoek, Twente- in Germany -Baden Wurtemberg - and areas in Switzerland as protestant.
However, the lack of sourcing is the main concern. Anyway a map like article text does not get a free pass on WP:V and WP:RS. So please add a reliable (NON WIKI) source or this map will have to be removed in order to comply with WIKIPEDIA quality standards. Grsd ( talk) 21:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
The area shown in the netherlands is rather accurate. I find the map to be informative. We could leave the map and search for references or change parts of it if you find it more constructive. I am no expert on the mather so maybe it would be better to ask an editor with more knowledge on the matter. Ragards-- Arcillaroja ( talk) 15:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)-- Arcillaroja ( talk) 15:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Well, historically, as you say, The Netherlands as a protestant country was quite different from what it is now. It is a well known fact that south of the Maas the population is predominantly catholic whereas north of the mass they are predominantly protestant. Of Course, this is a just an estimation for illustrative purposes. It would be counterproductive to check every city for statistics in order to present it in the map. The polarization and division between protestants and catholics in dutch society ~was there as recent as 50 years ago. Since then there have been mixing and Dutch society tends to be less inclined to religion than they did before. There are many sources that support the map such as the CIA. I don't have the intention of restoring the map but I think that you are rather aggressive when removing it instead of improving it. Arcillaroja ( talk) 19:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Grsd ( talk) 10:29, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I recommend to any one who intends to edit this article to be kind and benevolent, and help Wikipedia to expand the Eastern world. 90.166.249.165 ( talk) 02:02, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Why is there almost no mention of the British Empire? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.162.159 ( talk) 16:12, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
The top map about Western cultures needs some chnages (File:Westerncultures map.png)
1. Is Israel part of the West? No Semitic nation was part of the West historically, as far as I know.
2. Do we have to include all present day countries that are members of the European Union like Bulgaria and Romania, which are just north of Greece? The European Union is obviously Western type of community organization and if one country is accepted as a member, therefore it has to be seen as an equal to the other Western members.
Headstonesjk ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:55, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Sincephase CZ ( talk) 22:32, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Nobody knows the exact boundaries of the western-world and still its a topic of debate. So the map itself unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.144.39 ( talk) 14:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
While the Levant has been considered part of the "East", it doesn't change the fact that Western civilization owes much to that chunk of land and the people on it. Where do you think Jesus walked? Who he talked to? Where his early disciples were and what they thought? Anyhow, modern Israel is a Western country, at least in its Jewish majority sections; its dominant population is Ashkenazi Jewish, a group so thoroughly Europeanized that it has cultural practices and connections more in common with Europe than with the Palestinians and Arabs around it. Maybe, in time, it might become a "Judeo-Islamic-Eastern" country (well, it's already taken to shwarama and felafel), but most of the people probably had grandparents and great grandparents who grew up on European soil and knew Europeans well. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 09:14, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
This passage is really nonsense: "Generally speaking, the current consensus would locate the West, at the very least, in the cultures and peoples of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and a great part of Central and South America like Argentina and Brazil. There is debate among some as to whether Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) [13][14] is in a category of its own. The argument supporting Central and Eastern Europe being a part of the West is that Central and Eastern European countries such as Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Romania are now part of the European Union and NATO, which mostly comprise Western countries. However, there are distinct cultural differences; the impact of Communism on these cultures in the 20th Century was great". Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovakia and Slovenia are integral part of Western civilization. Fourty years of communist oppression could not erase previous thousand years long history. Do anybody really think that Czech republic is less western than Brazil or Argentina?!! — Preceding unsignedcomment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 06:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Well. As for sources to passage I have criticized, there is said something about agriculture in post-communist Europe. One of these publications is fifteen years old. Quite outdated, isn´t it? After all, do you really think, that agriculture in Poland, Lithuania or Hungary was so much different from agriculture in southern Italy, Spain or Ireland during its history. Not to mention Brazil, if this latin american country is (according to someone) more western than these undoubtedly european countries? There is said, that impact of communism to these countries was great. Maybe. But the impact of previous thousand years of belonging to western civilization was far much greater. I am from Czech republic. Do you really think, that I do not belong to western world whilst Mexicans, Brazilians or Argentinians are considered to be westerners?! As for reliable sources which could serve as counter-arguments, what about Samuel Huntington (The Clash of Civilizations)? Or Milan Kundera (The Stolen West or the Tragedy of Central Europe)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.176.255.56 ( talk) 20:48, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Moved to new section Coastside ( talk) 16:23, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Source [13] does not support the discussed claim, it does not speak about term "Western World" whatsoever. Can table header of certain particular agricultural statistics be considered a source for definition of Western world in source [14]? Can someone please check the source [15], that seem to be another agriculture focused topic with little connection to definition of Western World? The entire claim looks like vandalism. 90.177.169.200 ( talk) 18:26, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Jojalozzo, you reverted some recent unexplained edits and asked for comments on the talk page. I didn't do these edits and can't explain all of them. However, I did note that there is a grammatical error that was fixed, which you reverted. The sentence "Although geographically not located in Western Europe," needs the word "Europe" in order to make sense. Also, it was proper to remove the wikilink for Western Europe. WP:OVERLINK says links should appear only once in an article. Since Western Europe was wikilinked earlier (in the first paragraph of the Introduction), it should not be linked again here. Similarly, "Central and Eastern Europe" are linked multiple times in the same paragraph, which was fixed in the edits you reverted. Coastside ( talk) 14:22, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Why should Huntington map be given so much relevance? Only ignorant Americans can think that Latin America is not part of the West.
1. By the way America was the name given first to South America, then it was applied to the Northern Part (Just an example of how "Americans steal concepts")Do they now want to steal also the Western concept? Pathetic.
2. Western Civilization was born out of "Greekness" and "Latinity". If anything "Latin" America is more America and more Western than the US themselves, of Anglo-Barbarian origins!
Some people here, beginning by Huntington and others trying to magnify his works, should get a real education before editing this article or anything else, because they make "Americans" look pretty ignorant!. Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk • contribs)
Generally incorrect!. What happens is that some people are more than fed up with racist and ignorant Americans contaminating Wiki all over! Go to school, or wake up! Why should the US be considered the West if Mexico or Argentina are not? Some people are more than fed up that some Americans think that they are the only "everything" in the world an use wiki for their cheap propaganda!. Is it based on race-racist criteria? who says that civilization is based on race-racist criteria?. Besides, if it were so, then the US should be excluded, such a multiracial country as it is! but of course the Western concept is cultural. So, why are we supposed to continue to stand so much ignorance and the-world-is-like-my-uncle-Johnny-told-me-in-the-Bill-hills theories. Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 20:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
And some people are also fed up with the descendants of Anglo-Saxon barbarians and the like trying to appropriate the civilization that was born in Greece and Rome, the cradle of Greekness and Latinity, the exporters of their civilization to the rest of Europe, with Christianity, with the Roman or Latin language, Roman law and culture, all of them directly incorporated into Latin Europe first and expanded to Latin America later. Maybe we have to remind here that Spanish and Portuguese are Latin languages, that their worlds are Roman Catholic, that their Law systems and fundamental parts of their cultures were laid down by the Romans?. Who is generally wrong? Anglos and Saxons were considered Barbarians in the eyes of the founders of Western civilization. Now their descendants, that became Westernized later, want to appropriate that? Again to school!, and hope it is a good one, because what I can read here is pathetic! Coon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.203.72 ( talk) 00:07, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know that may be the case for Central america, for example. Yet Argentina has a higher percentage of white people than the US, for example. what about the US then? Still, race plays no role here, and what a group of people with certain political ideas may think is irrelevant. On top, Latin america is a huge and diverse place, it is not Californian Hispanics or the Northern Mexican border. Americans should stop being so provincial. Coon.
We should have a section on the history of the term. The West was invented in the 16th century. It originally referred to the Catholic and Protestant countries of Europe, as opposed to the Eastern Orthodox countries. Even though Catholic and Protestant countries didn't patch up their differences until the Peace of Westphalia (1648) they had temporary alliances for sea battle against the Turks in the 1500s. That's when the term Western came into general use. ("Civilization" wasn't added until centuries later.) Since then the definitions and boundaries of the Western world have shifted, but have usually been defined in terms of shared Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman heritage, as well as a shared history in the Renaissance. This is discussed extensively in Silvia Federici's book Enduring Western civilization. Even though the author is a flaming leftist, the book is well-researched and spot on. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 21:25, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I just noticed that we have an unregistered used here who ends every post with an offensive four-letter word that begins with c. The word is capitalized and in its own sentence. The user's history indicates a total of 16 posts (on all articles) all of them ending with the word in question. Does this word mean something else in Spanish? I looked, but couldn't find anything. Is it Trourette syndrome? Maybe it's a username that the user doesn't know is offensive in English. The word still occurs three times on this talk page. Zyxwv99 ( talk) 01:53, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Please, can anyone fix the map of Samuel P. Huntington in the section "other views"? In his work, as we know, Samuel P. Huntington doesn't include Latin America as west but the map in the section "other views", attributed to him, does. I disagree with his view of west but if we want cite his work, let's do it correctly. thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.42.195.164 ( talk) 10:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
BaodlywoaterAlbanian ( talk) 01:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
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Hi there.
I think we should keep in the intro only the buildings that show a link between the Greco-Roman architecture and the modern period: that is, the French Assemblée nationale and the American Supreme Court (the legacy is obvious notably with the colums).
The other pictures do not show this heritage, but they are still interesting: maybe we should put the British Parliament somewhere below in the article with a caption that reads something like The Western World has been a powerful force for democratisation around the world. Pictured here is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, dubbed the "mother of Parliament".
We could use the image of the Christ redeemer with a caption such as Christianity is one of the fundamental components of the Western World.
What do you think? Huiva ( talk) 12:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
rio de janeiro western?lmao rio de janeiro have much sub westerners in the population of that town only south brazil and sao Paulo have more western influence the rest of brazil have small western contribuition and more native/Hispanic/et cetera-other influences
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Samuel P. Huntington includes Papua New Guinea in his vision of the Western world... and there are nomadic peoples living in bushes over there... I mean, jeez... @ User:Concus Cretus Ernio48 ( talk) 15:23, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, yes, the map. We seem to be disagreeing about exactly which map to use. Would someone like to propose a criterion by which we might decide which one to use, rather than everyone just picking their favourite? William M. Connolley ( talk) 20:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@ William M. Connolley:, @ Ernio48: Has anyone verified that page 26 of the 1997 The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order has the current ConcusCretus map, as I have only found one similar to File:Clash of Civilizations mapn2.png ? X1\ ( talk) 22:19, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Nil Einne: Here is CC's new map (below). Very different map, with very similar problems. CC's new map is also not in Huntington's book. The problem is not and never has been whether the author's works can be used as a reference in this article. This is not one of the author's maps, it is CC's. CC, please provide the page and sentence in the author's book that details all of and only the countries you have included in your map, as has been previously requested. X1\ ( talk) 14:10, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
This is not an article about Huntington's theory, and using a lead map that only uses Huntington's very limited definition of the West, which excludes Greece (traditionally considered the foundation of Western philosophy) is a severe violation of NPOV. Plumber ( talk) 06:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
Note: the "File:Western world Samuel P Huntington.svg" has been changed yet again; French Guiana (with "gradient"). X1\ ( talk) 23:49, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
"Gradient" not explained (no "gradients" in book), and the Philippines is even worse (only part is outlined, and it appears just the beach shore is "Western"). X1\ ( talk) 21:30, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
For the record, I meant “ Cold War definition” and not “ Cold Wa rin my edit summary. Thank you. Anu-Dingir (Please offer a sacrifice!!!!) 04:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
User:Jeuryabuese, the sources clearly states Judaism:
Do you have any valid reason to state before this is being taken to an admin? Infantom ( talk) 22:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I have added a section about Judaism with additional sources. I also modified the lead per MOS:LEAD. Infantom ( talk) 23:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I have removed the following text [6] on the grounds that it is not backed by the sources used. Ditto with this pic [7], it is totally undue, especially its placement at the top of the article. Khirurg ( talk) 16:28, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Several strong claims are currently being pushed in the article by a couple of editors (Infantom, LittleDipper), for example that "The West was and is founded upon Christianity, ... through which it is founded upon... Ancient Israel/Judaism", or that "Ancient Israelite Judaism is the foundation of Western morality." and several others to that effect. These are very strong claims. In addition the two editors are edit-warring to have this picture
placedg it at the very top of the article for maximum visibility. Below I analyze the whether the claim "| "The West was and is founded upon Christianity, ... through which it is founded upon... Ancient Israel/Judaism" is backed by the sources.
Source | Verdict | Comment |
---|---|---|
Andrea C. Paterson (2009). Three Monotheistic Faiths - Judaism, Christianity, Islam: An Analysis and Brief History. AuthorHouse. pp. 39–. ISBN 978-1-4343-9246-6."Judaism has influenced western civilization in a multitude of ways" | No | "Influence" is not the same as "founding", published is Authorhouse, a self-publishing outfit [8], does not meet WP:RS |
Marvin Perry (1 January 2012). Western Civilization: A Brief History, Volume I: To 1789. Cengage Learning. pp. 33–. ISBN 1-111-83720-1."We talk of a Judeo-Christian tradition as an essential component of western civilization" | No | Nothing about "Ancient Israel", "essential component" not the same as "founding". High school textbook, low quality tertiary source, to be avoided per WP:PSTS |
Role of Judaism in Western culture and civilization, "Judaism has played a significant role in the development of Western culture because of its uniqurelationship with Christianity, the dominant religious force in the West". Judaism at Encyclopædia Britannica | No | Many cultures played a "significant role in the development of western culture, but that's not the same as founding it. Britannica is a generalist tertiary source best avoided per WP:PSTS. |
Jonathan Daly (19 December 2013). The Rise of Western Power: A Comparative History of Western Civilization. A&C Black. pp. 21–. ISBN 978-1-4411-1851-6."Another people contributed richly to the rise of the west without ever founding an empire of ruling a large territory: the Jews." | No | "contributed richly", definitely, founding, no. |
Prof. Art Marmorstein, Northern State University, ANCIENT ISRAEL (THE HEBREWS) "Still, the Israelites had a major impact on Western civilization" | No | Excerpt from website, self-published, does not meet RS. |
Cambridge University Historical Series, An Essay on Western Civilization in Its Economic Aspects, p.40: Hebraism, like Hellenism, has been an all-important factor in the development of Western Civilization; Judaism, as the precursor of Christianity, has indirectly had had much to do with shaping the ideals and morality of western nations since the christian era. | No | Key word here is "indirectly" |
Caltron J.H Hayas, Christianity and Western Civilization (1953),Stanford University Press, p.2: That certain distinctive features of our Western civilization — the civilization of western Europe and of America— have been shaped chiefly by Judaeo–Graeco–Christianity, Catholic and Protestant. | No | "certain features have been shaped", yes, "founding", no |
Horst Hutter, University of New York, Shaping the Future: Nietzsche's New Regime of the Soul And Its Ascetic Practices (2004), p.111:three mighty founders of Western culture, namely Socrates, Jesus, and Plato. | No | Meant somewhat tongue-in-cheek |
Religions in Global Society – Page 146, Peter Beyer – 2006 | unknown | No quote provided |
Fred Reinhard Dallmayr, Dialogue Among Civilizations: Some Exemplary Voices (2004), p.22: Western civilization is also sometimes described as "Christian" or "Judaeo- Christian" civilization. | No | "sometimes described" is very different from founding |
About half the sources are low quality or do not meet WP:RS. None of them explicitly back the strong claim that "Western civilization is founded upon Judaism". Based on this, I think it's fine to say in the lede that Judaism had a significant effect/contribution/influence/shaped western civ, but not that Western civilization is "founded" upon it on par with ancient Greece and Rome. "Ancient Israel" is an anachronism and not used by any sources, and should not be used here either. I also feel the picture is WP:UNDUE, especially at the top of the article. Khirurg ( talk) 06:13, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
References
The list of books which have celebrated Greece as the "cradle" of the West is endless; two more examples are Charles Freeman's The Greek Achievement: The Foundation of the Western World (1999) and Bruce Thornton's Greek Ways: How the Greeks Created Western Civilization (2000)
The reason why even such a sophisticated historian as Pagden can do it is that the idea that Greece is the cradle of civilisation is so much rooted in western minds and school curicula as to be taken for granted.
In 1979, a friend of de Boer's invited him to join a team of scientists that was going to Greece to assess the suitability of the ... But the idea of learning more about Greece — the cradle of Western civilization, a fresh example of tectonic forces at ...
I'm going to dive into this discussion with the suggestion that the section "Influences of Judaism" be removed entirely. For one thing, it is nestled under the heading "Historical divisions" which is entirely a geographical section and has little to nothing to do with the cultural influences of the "Western world". Secondly, there is already a reference to the Biblical Christian culture's influence on Western culture, and since the entire argument of the "Influences of Judaism" section appears to be that Judaism, as the foundation of Christianity, formed a large part of the basis of the Western world, that argument is already encapsulated in the proper place, with Wikilinks to further detailed articles on the topic. The point of this section in this article appears to be to push a particular point of view rather than to impart any real information. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:50, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
How is the oracle of Delphi the most representative thing about Western culture that it must be the image of the first paragraph of the body? 112.211.192.58 ( talk) 22:00, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Hello, why confusing? The colombian exchange is important. Then the caption for that image is better if elaborated. Then the change to the very first paragraph was not me but I agree with it. 2A00:23C4:7155:6D00:8846:F5D:F916:DC03 ( talk) 09:49, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
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