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Elinruby, unfortunately, I am locked out of the Gmail that I had attached to my Wiki account. Hopefully, I will regain access to it, but that's uncertain. Basically, I can't read the email you sent me (except for the first sentence that I can see via the notification on Wikipedia). Thanks for your support and Best Wishes! --
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
17:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't have a topic ban. I am blocked for three months from improving the particular page that Grabowski makes fun of, go figure. Apparently I don't let other people work on it. Yes, I know. Enough said.
I was telling you a couple of things in the email I sent you. First, about the block, which I see you have noticed, if misunderstood. Its main effect is that while I can see you work on that page, I cannot cannot comment on your changes on that talk page or even thank you there for your contributions to that page. (I tried.)
We had previously been discussing the disparity in coverage between countries. Consider France for example versus Romania or Czechoslovakia. The idea has been to move the article to summary style and spinoff the longer sections.
(Interestingly, sources say one of the figures involved in this used the money he made collaborating to finance weapons for the Liberation of Paris.) I am also working on the Business collaboration spinoff, which at the moment deals solely with American corporations. That also needs help if you are interested.
When I was copying this article from the Baltic sections of the more-specific
Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, I deliberately left open the question of "Collaboration with whom?", because scanning the material and related discussions at articles such as
List of World War II puppet states (as well as the underlying history, as reflected in books such as Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands [2010]), it seems clear to me that one can't intelligently and honestly understand or discuss one occupation/collaboration without the other (local populace much the losers in both cases).
If you were an official or mayor or merchant or policeman or schoolteacher or writer under the first SSR, then (unless you could be useful to the Nazis, Wehrmacht or SS) it wouldn't be unlikely that
Reichskommissariat Ostland might very well call you a Judeo-Bolshevik collaborator and treat you as such, but vice-versa after the Red Army had taken over again.
As you say, the collaboration during the Nazi occupation cannot be understood without the collaboration in 1940-1941 during the Soviet occupation. It seems clear to me that the title of this article (i.e. Wartime collaboration in the Baltic states) is kind of a placeholder, meaning that we will refine it as time goes by.
We should remember that Klaipėda was occupied by Germany in March 1939 (
1939 German ultimatum to Lithuania happened even before World War II began in Europe). After all, Germany occupied countries before the war even began - e.g. Austria and Czechoslovakia. Also, collaboration by
Volksdeutsche is included in the collaboration sections about the countries they were inhabiting.
Also, war in the Baltics did not end on
Victory in Europe Day in 1945, because there was the
Guerilla war in the Baltic states that lasted into the late 1950s. So, paradoxically, Wartime collaboration in the Baltic states starts before World War II in Europe and lasts after it ends.
I would propose a rename (i.e. to 'Collaboration with Nazi Germany in the Baltic states') unless someone is willing and able to widen the scope of the article.
AlexandraAVX (
talk)
17:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, "wartime" does beg the question of which war. Although in the Baltics we don't have Italy as a confounding factor, I am a little concerned about "Nazi" however. As discussed above, this history does not correspond exactly to World War II and there may be people (mayors and police for example) who were called collaborators with both the Soviets and the Nazis. My mind is open or the proposed rename but at the moment I lean oppose. I am also however persuadable, since some of the other people in the conversation likely know more about World War II in this area than I .
Elinruby (
talk)
21:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Harv errors
Hi @
Shakescene: How goes it? I had to revert. You removed two bib entries that had references but no citations attached. I think you need that script by Trappist the Monk that shows up Harv errors. These are errors associated with references. Once the script is installed, these errors in the references can be seen very easily. scope_creepTalk14:40, 21 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Scope creep I certainly didn't intend to change anything; just to adjust the alphabetization in the Bibliography, where every other item is in alphabetical order (unlike in the References, ordered by the footnotes' appearance in the text). General readers (unversed in Harvard citation scripts) might look in the Biblo for one Birn article or the Breitman one and miss it because it is out of order (no Birn2 because Breitman immediately succeeds Birn; or no Breitman because there appears to be no gap between Birn and Haberer.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Wartime collaboration in the Baltic states is part of WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand
Estonia-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.EstoniaWikipedia:WikiProject EstoniaTemplate:WikiProject EstoniaEstonia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Latvia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Latvia related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LatviaWikipedia:WikiProject LatviaTemplate:WikiProject LatviaLatvia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lithuania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Lithuania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LithuaniaWikipedia:WikiProject LithuaniaTemplate:WikiProject LithuaniaLithuania articles
Elinruby, unfortunately, I am locked out of the Gmail that I had attached to my Wiki account. Hopefully, I will regain access to it, but that's uncertain. Basically, I can't read the email you sent me (except for the first sentence that I can see via the notification on Wikipedia). Thanks for your support and Best Wishes! --
Cukrakalnis (
talk)
17:09, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I don't have a topic ban. I am blocked for three months from improving the particular page that Grabowski makes fun of, go figure. Apparently I don't let other people work on it. Yes, I know. Enough said.
I was telling you a couple of things in the email I sent you. First, about the block, which I see you have noticed, if misunderstood. Its main effect is that while I can see you work on that page, I cannot cannot comment on your changes on that talk page or even thank you there for your contributions to that page. (I tried.)
We had previously been discussing the disparity in coverage between countries. Consider France for example versus Romania or Czechoslovakia. The idea has been to move the article to summary style and spinoff the longer sections.
(Interestingly, sources say one of the figures involved in this used the money he made collaborating to finance weapons for the Liberation of Paris.) I am also working on the Business collaboration spinoff, which at the moment deals solely with American corporations. That also needs help if you are interested.
When I was copying this article from the Baltic sections of the more-specific
Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, I deliberately left open the question of "Collaboration with whom?", because scanning the material and related discussions at articles such as
List of World War II puppet states (as well as the underlying history, as reflected in books such as Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands [2010]), it seems clear to me that one can't intelligently and honestly understand or discuss one occupation/collaboration without the other (local populace much the losers in both cases).
If you were an official or mayor or merchant or policeman or schoolteacher or writer under the first SSR, then (unless you could be useful to the Nazis, Wehrmacht or SS) it wouldn't be unlikely that
Reichskommissariat Ostland might very well call you a Judeo-Bolshevik collaborator and treat you as such, but vice-versa after the Red Army had taken over again.
As you say, the collaboration during the Nazi occupation cannot be understood without the collaboration in 1940-1941 during the Soviet occupation. It seems clear to me that the title of this article (i.e. Wartime collaboration in the Baltic states) is kind of a placeholder, meaning that we will refine it as time goes by.
We should remember that Klaipėda was occupied by Germany in March 1939 (
1939 German ultimatum to Lithuania happened even before World War II began in Europe). After all, Germany occupied countries before the war even began - e.g. Austria and Czechoslovakia. Also, collaboration by
Volksdeutsche is included in the collaboration sections about the countries they were inhabiting.
Also, war in the Baltics did not end on
Victory in Europe Day in 1945, because there was the
Guerilla war in the Baltic states that lasted into the late 1950s. So, paradoxically, Wartime collaboration in the Baltic states starts before World War II in Europe and lasts after it ends.
I would propose a rename (i.e. to 'Collaboration with Nazi Germany in the Baltic states') unless someone is willing and able to widen the scope of the article.
AlexandraAVX (
talk)
17:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, "wartime" does beg the question of which war. Although in the Baltics we don't have Italy as a confounding factor, I am a little concerned about "Nazi" however. As discussed above, this history does not correspond exactly to World War II and there may be people (mayors and police for example) who were called collaborators with both the Soviets and the Nazis. My mind is open or the proposed rename but at the moment I lean oppose. I am also however persuadable, since some of the other people in the conversation likely know more about World War II in this area than I .
Elinruby (
talk)
21:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Harv errors
Hi @
Shakescene: How goes it? I had to revert. You removed two bib entries that had references but no citations attached. I think you need that script by Trappist the Monk that shows up Harv errors. These are errors associated with references. Once the script is installed, these errors in the references can be seen very easily. scope_creepTalk14:40, 21 August 2023 (UTC)reply
@
Scope creep I certainly didn't intend to change anything; just to adjust the alphabetization in the Bibliography, where every other item is in alphabetical order (unlike in the References, ordered by the footnotes' appearance in the text). General readers (unversed in Harvard citation scripts) might look in the Biblo for one Birn article or the Breitman one and miss it because it is out of order (no Birn2 because Breitman immediately succeeds Birn; or no Breitman because there appears to be no gap between Birn and Haberer.