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This archive is for discussions ending between August 12 and September 30
In the article it says "the Taliban government offered to extradite bin Laden to a neutral nation". This seems to imply that our President had the opportunity to have bin Laden safely behind bars, therefore preventing any more harm coming to the public which supports him. I find it a very cruel thing to say about an elected official, and a fine example of this site's Liberal bias.
I have come to determine that the current conflict in lebanon should be considered part of the WoT due to mutual agreement between the Israeli government and the American government on it being part of it [2] [3]. Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by the USA, and the USA is supporting Israel in this conflict. The conflict from the beginning was said to be a part of it, as opposed to things such as the Chechen war which, while Putin claims is a part, this was after it had been happening for years. What are other peoples thoughts on its inclusion in this campaign? ~ Rangeley ( talk) 19:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is the criticism? I can't find it. This article is very pro-American and pro-War as I read it. The fact that the war by its own definition can have no conclusion should be quite prominently pointed out at least. Damburger 10:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The stuff is a direct C+P from "Criticisms of the War on Terrorism", which is why it looks very messy. I deliberately picked out the stuff which had citations in response to your comments about the previous criticisms section. WSW and Indymedia are no less reliable sources the Free Republic, so I don't see any reason to remove them. Damburger 14:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Stating we should keep sources that fail WP:RS because other sources fail WP:RS is not proper. Help cleanup the article do not further pollute it. If you feel a source is invalid thenr emove it or bring it up here for people to decide. Dont add other WP:RS sources, thats a WP:POINT violation. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 14:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The Iraq portion contains a number of unsubstantiated claims. Others are just plain wrong. I tried to correct these yesterday, providing detailed explanations for each change, but Rangeley reverted almost all my changes. Please provide citations for the following:
(1) After the September 11 attacks, fears that Iraq could use its alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction program to aid terrorist groups began to grow,
NYC: First, since the WMD were only suspected and turned out to be nonexistent, this sentence should be corrected "...the US gov't alleged that Iraq had WMD, and further advanced the idea that Iraq may aid terrorist groups using such WMD. Second, what "fears"? US government fears? Then it should state that. Otherwise, cite polling data for "growing fears." Connecting 9/11 with Iraq WMD is (now thoroughly debunked) US government spin. By repeating this spin here without making that clear we are helping to mislead.
The passive voice "fears" is imprecise. Does it mean US and other gov't fears, as you imply? Then it should say so. The Downing Street memo shows that the intelligence regarding WMD was going to be "fixed" to support the war. This shows that the WMD "fears" were not what was driving the decision to invade. So this "gov't fear" has to be clarified. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so you seem to be saying it supports "alleged US gov't fears" or something like that formulation?-- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright, then the article should avoid the passive voice and state that Bush was allegedly afraid... and cite the Downing Street memo if you think that supports this. -- NYCJosh 21:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(2) leading the George W. Bush administration to call for a UNSC resolution.[16][17] United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 was passed unanimously, which offered Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" or face "serious consequences."
NYC: The Res 1441 also stated the UN Sec Council shall remain "seized of the matter." That's why the US wanted, unsuccessfully, to obtain a second resolution. Without this clarification, it's misleading, because it implies that member states such as the US were authorized by the Res to use force, which clearly they were not.
Ranegely, the very source you cite, 5 above states: "A small number of international legal experts also consider the phrase a linguistic maneuver to head off unilateral action. The theory goes that the Security Council is actually hinting to various national governments to hold off on, say, sending tanks across the Euphrates River, since the dispute is still being adjudicated."
I don't know what "small number" means or how he knows how many, but that's where I got my "entirely basesless" notion. Moreover, Res 1441 never authorizes member states (or anyone else) to use force. Thus, the UN Charter's prohibition remained. The reader is given the misimpression that somehow Res 1441 may have authorized the US-led coalition's invasion. Finally, there is no mention of proportionality. Even if force had been authorized to disarm Iraq of WMD, an invasion of the entire country and occupation of it would have been well beyond such a hypothetical authorization of WMD disarming.-- NYCJosh 19:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is the "seized of the matter" is quite relevant, as your source shows.-- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Your source supports the notion that at least according to some "international legal experts" the "seized of the matter" language further shows that the Res 1441 did not authorize member states to act. That is the issue we are discussing. Please read the short passage that I had pasted from the article at the beginning of this section. The sentence currently in the article quoting the "serious consequence" language misleads the reader into thinking that Res 1441 may have authorized the US or member states to attack. Res. 1441 never authorized use of force by any member states. This is why I think we need to qualify by citing the "seized" language and explaining that Res. 1441 never authorized the use of force by any member states. It made no change in the UN Charter's prohibition on U.N. member states using force against other member states. -- NYCJosh 22:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"They would not have sought a second resolution that included this language, due to the fact that the first had this language" --rather speculative. There were other things also in the second res that never passed that the US/UK may have wanted; "seized" may have been included as a compromise to France, Russia or other P5 states that wanted to continue UN inspections, it would take some research to figure out why it may have been included in the second res that never passed. However we can source the following: "Seized" according at least to some authorities means Sec Council and NOT member states. Thus, "seized" is relevant to the scope of Res 1441 and should be included.-- NYCJosh 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not dodging, I am simply not willing to speculate on the text of a proposed res. that was never voted on and how it got to be the way it did. It probably was not the work of one country. The text of the second Res was probably a negotiated compromise or an attempt at reaching compromise with P5 members opposed to US-led invasion. It's not my job to research the REASONS for why the US/UK supposedly supported specific language in resolutions never passed. There is probably a diplomatic record (some of it public some not) about the second res. The US was using all kinds of tactics, including bugging the NY missions of countries of the Sec. Council and threatening to cut off economic cooperation, to get a second res. It's an interesting history and if you want to enlighten me on the specifics, send me an e-mail. As I wrote yesterday, however, we do know the following: "Seized" according at least to some authorities (as confirmed by the source you cite) means the Sec Council and NOT member states. Thus, "seized" is relevant to the scope of Res 1441 and should be included. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the second half of the Slate source cited by Rangeley about "seized" (5 above) before responding. -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your analogy. I don't pretend to know why that language was in the second Res never voted on, who put it in there and who opposed it. If you're curious, you're welcome to try to find out. Let me withdraw my earlier statement that "seized" was THE reason the US wanted a second Res. The US pursued (unsuccessfully) a second Res that would authorize the use of force by member states. But the source you cite is clear about what "seized" means according to some legal experts. That's really the only issue for this part of the article. I don't think we're in actual disagreement about this issue. -- NYCJosh 23:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(3) Saddam Hussein subsequently allowed UN inspectors to access some Iraqi sites, while the U.S. government continued to say that Iraq was being obstructionist, due to the fact that there were numerous sites made unavailable for inspection. [6] [7] [8]
NYC: Incorrect. There were no weapons-related sites in Februrary or March 2003 to which the UN inspectors were refused access.
Please identify such weapons-related sites to which Iraqi refused to allow inspectors. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 Part II. I did not see your response to this. Here is an excerpt from the first footnote (the Blix stament) for this sentence in the article: "Mr President, in my 27 January update to the council, I said that it seemed from our experience that Iraq had decided in principle to provide cooperation on process, most importantly prompt access to all sites and assistance to Unmovic in the establishment of the necessary infrastructure." I am distressed that this source was alleged by some editor to support the claim that Iraq refused entry to some sites. The source says no such thing. In fact it says the opposite: "prompt access to all sites and assistanc to UNmovic". This is either real carelessness or bad faith. The editor needs to explain (and of cource the claim should be removed). A sentence should be included that according Hanz Blix, in charge of the UN inspectors, Iraq was cooperating with the inspections and hundreds of sites were inspected. -- NYCJosh 22:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This impression remains, and we note that access to sites has so far been without problems, including those that had never been declared or inspected, as well as to Presidential sites and private residences.
(4) The use of force against Iraq was authorized by the United States Congress in October 2002 in order to "prosecute the war on terrorism." [18] After failing to overcome opposition from France, Russia, and China against a UNSC resolution that would sanction the use of force against Iraq, the United States instead assembled a Coalition of the Willing composed of nations who pledged support for a war against Iraq.[19]
NYC: Misleading. "Instead assembled" implies that the coalition imparts legitimacy just as the UN Sec COuncil could have done. This is clearly not true, since under the UN Charter (ratified by the US and other coalition members and therefore binding on them) attacking a fellow UN member state is illegal without UN Sec Council authorization (absent a threat of imminent attack).
Even the US did not allege threat of imminent attack. Used terms like "gathering threat." There is no evidence that Iraq EVER attacked or threatened to attack the US or any American interests. That was all US gov't spin. Iraq launched scuds against Israel in 1991 only after being attacked by the US; it invaded Kuwait only after it received what it quite reasonably thought was the green light from Washington (April Glassby transcrip).-- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I lost the thread of discussion here. If the issue is whether Iraq under Saddam has a history of posing a threat to the US, then the answer no. Saddam was still a reliable ally of the US in 1990, doing what Saddam quite reasonably believed the US deemed acceptable when he invaded Kuwait (see April Glassby transcript). The US then possibly changed its mind (Kuwait is not just a huge gas station so it doesn't matter if our ally Saddam controls it or is under control of our allies the dictators of Kuwait, as some US policy makers had stated) or the US was setting Saddam up. Sorry for the digression. -- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how any of what you wrote relates to the senteces of the aricle under discussion. Let's stick to the article. -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(5) On March 19th, 2003, the invasion of Iraq was launched in what was touted as the "serious consequences" spoken of in UNSC Resolution 1441.
NYC: Misleading. The US touted it, but the sentence doesn't even make that clear. But it would still be misleading, see above comment about "seized of the matter."
NYC: Without qualification, without clarifying that it was the UK/US gov't who touted this idea, and it was spin because it was at best a half truth (Res 1441 did not authorize force), the reader is left with the impression that this "touting" is not particularly noteworthy and would have no reason to doubt its cogency. It's misleading. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 I am glad we seem to be nearing agreement on some this. Since the article refers to Res 1441 and quotes "serious consequences," the article should mention the "seized of the matter" language in 1441 (b/c as dicussed yesterday, it is relevant, at least accoding to some scholars). Also. after quoting the "serious consequences" language, it should clarify that Res 1441 did not authorize any member states' use of force. The Res effected no change in the UN Charter's prohibition on the use of arms by member states to settle disputes. Without this clarification the "serious consequences" language of the article misleads the reader into thinking that Res 1441 authorized the US-led invasion.-- NYCJosh 20:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
(6) Saddam Hussein's regime was quickly toppled and on May 1, 2003, George W. Bush stated major combat operations in Iraq had ended. [9] But the war continued on as an insurgency, at first from loyalists and later by radical elements such as Al Qaeda in Iraq.
NYC: This sequence "at first loyalists and later..." is not supported, and I believe is incorrect. Also, it neglects to mention other insurgents who are neither Saddam loyalits nor radical shiites: young Iraqis who want an end to occupation; in other words, a home grown insurgency.
I never made any claim regarding sequence. Why are you putting words into my mouth? -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 OK, again, I am glad we're near agreement. The Fox source states that the US discovered Saddam gov't documents laying the plans for some type of resistance after the fall of Saddam. It says nothing about who made up the insurgents or anything about the percentage breakdown. In 2003 was it predominantly (approximately 90% 51% 33% 10%) Saddamists? Local residents fighting against the invasion? Foreign fighters? I recall a report that fewer than 10% were foreign fighters. The article should not make unsupported claims.-- NYCJosh 20:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 (Part II) - No, that's not what I am saying. I simply stated, NOT for includion in the article, an unsourced statement about the small number of foreign fighters. There is a basic conceptual error implicit in your argument (which is consistent with the impression one may get from watching too much American broadcast news). In addition to Baathists, and foreign fighters, there exists a huge number (probably the vast majority but I cannot document this) of Iraqi insurgents who are neither of the above; rather, they are homegrown fighters for ending the occupation and occupation-imposed governing structure and/or people fighting for ending Shiite domination. Be that as it may, to sustain the claim about sequence and preponderance of type of fighters (loyalists, etc.) now present in the article, there would have to be some citation. -- NYCJosh 21:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 21 NYC: Rangeley, if you wish it to be included in the article you have to provide a source for your claim that "who wanted Saddam to be back in power were the ones who continued fighting after May 1." Maybe, but maybe many/most are fighting to rid their country of the US-led occupation, the governing structure imposed by the foreign occupiers, and/or the Shiite domination of the country. Also for your claim that "But today, those who make up the insurgency ... are Wahhabi-influenced groups."
Stating insurgents loyal to Saddam wanted Saddam back in power ... seems pretty obvious. As for who makes it up now, I think we can find a source on that most likely. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 23:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What source is there that shows that Saddam loyalists made up the lion's share in 2003? It's not obvious to me. -- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "the war continued on as an insurgency, at first from loyalists and later by radical elements such as Al Qaeda in Iraq" mean if not that the majority or preponderance of the insurgetns were at fist loyalists and later radical elements such as al qaida? -- NYCJosh 22:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"Baath loyalists launched most of the first attacks in the insurgency, this we know" How do you know this? Please provide a source. Also, provide source for: now mainly radicals like al qaida.-- NYCJosh 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The Time source acknoweldges at least in part relying on US military sources for its information. Remember this is the same US gov't that had been selling the WMD story (with much success--2/3 of Americans believed even after the invasion that Iraq had WMD) and was trying to portray the insurgency as largely a continuation of Saddam's evil forces. I will look for a source that provides a different perspective. Sill the sentence as currently written "at first from loyalists" overstates the facts and is not supported by this Time source. The Time source alleges that Baathists were leaders of some of the insurgency. It does not say that the insurgency had been primarily made up of loyalists, which is the clear implication of the sentence as it now reads. Also "later by radical elements such as al qaida" is not supported. The Time source says the Iraqi insurgents were acting more like religious Muslims in their personal habits to fit in better as a Jihadist movement and including foreign fighters in their units. That's quite different from "radical elements." -- NYCJosh 19:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read my comments about how the Time source does not fully support the claims in the article under discussion. MSC? -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to advance the article along, here is a source on the compostion of the insurgency I have not yet had a chance to read. http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr134.html. But one point in the introduction helps explain who some of the different types of people the Sunni Baathists are and what they think they're fighting for. Most of the Baathists are first and foremost Iraqi nationalists or pan-arabists, who are fighting the foreign occupiers and the governing structures they set up. This is just an example, there are other important factions of the insurgency. Our article doen't necessarily have to go into a lengthy analyis, but should give some perspective on the conflict, which would include a sentence or two on the insurgents and their guerilla war aims. -- NYCJosh 21:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(7) Nearly 2,900 soldiers from the coalition have been killed, with an estimated 67,000 Insurgents killed or jailed. [10]
NYC: Please cite a page number in the long Brookings institution report for the 67,000 figure. I could not find it and it seems too high.
Aug 18 If you're referring to the Chart on p 18, it describes total number killed or detained. How do you know who many got killed? -- NYCJosh 20:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 (Part II). OK, I made a mistake as to that part of the sentence (somehow I did not see "and jailed"). But "detained" (as stated in the Brroking source) is not the same as "jailed." Detained includes captured and held without charge. There are tens of thousands of such in Iraq held indefinetly (unourced factual allegaion on my part). Jail may imply convicted or being held pending trial. If that minor change in wording were made I would agree to that part of the sentence. -- NYCJosh 21:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 21 NYC. I added numbers 1-7 to the passage to make it easier to follow each thread of our discussion. -- NYCJosh 22:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes in the article based our discussion here so far. -- NYCJosh 05:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You may wish to read WP:CITE#How to ask for citations. In general, if you would like a source provided for a line and it's not doubtful then use {{ fact}}, if the line is doubtful but not too harmful, then mark it with {{tl:verify source}}. In general if the request remains for over a week it is generally acceptable to remove the line in question, but that doesn't mean it won't be reverted back into existence. The only time it is acceptable to outright delete a line without the tags having been there for a period of time or moving them to the talk page for discussion is if the information is very doubtful and very harmful to the subject of the article and/or Wikipedia. If you believe that a line is doubtful rather than outright removal, you may wish to provide a line that counters the existing line while awaiting a citation, just make sure to keep it NPOV and source it. On the patently false and harmful front, it is also preferable to not only remove the line, but to also add a line, with sources, into the article that shows the line deleted to be false. On a side note, I saw in one of the comments above that "it's pretty common knowledge", unfortunately that's generally not an acceptable response to a content dispute, sources are much better and should be fairly easy to find in this case. :) -- Bobblehead 21:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I am not sure why you're addressing me primarily. If you look at the additions I made to the Iraq piece of the article, most were deleted without explanation.-- NYCJosh 20:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would introduce some balance to acknowledge for non-U.S. readers that there is a cultural divide (sometimes a political one, but imo mostly cultural) with the terminology and what it describes. There is clearly a difference between a war against terrorism and elevating that to a formal description: The War on Terror. Afaik, the latter is only formal U.S. usage. See for example the War on Drugs, usually referred to as the "war on drugs". Similarly this topic is often referred to as "the so-called war on terror" or "George Bush's war on terror" etc. by news outlets around the world.
On first glance it just seems to be the name of U.S. involvement in anti-terrorism, which the world and his wife have historically been engaged in irrespective of calling it anything in particular. The article as it is (particularly with the Military Conflict InfoBox) risks generating a certain cultural dissonance. If it was written by non-U.S. editors it would be entirely different. Maybe some editors would like to reflect that(?) Hakluyt bean 18:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
"Did you just say it would be culturally ok if non-US editors wrote it". No. I said it would be good if editors reflected cultural difference Hakluyt bean 17:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
George Bush's War on Terrorism is a faulty name because George Bush doesnt decide when the US goes to war. The United States decides when it goes to war by an Act of Congress which is what happened with Afghanistan and Iraq. You keep saying the readers perspective or reffering to it, however we are not attempting to appeal to people we are attempting to present verifiable and factual information. If the person does not know their country is supplying troops, intel, training etc, that does not mean it should not be included, it means that person is reading an article in which they will learn something about their countries involvement in this greater conflict. You say the US has a leading military role, however the first "war" started during this campaign was in Afghanistan, which had major roles by Canada and the UK and now by NATO and a alrger role by Canada. There were numerous nations that provided air space, landing strips, use of coastal routes, inteliigence, soldiers, police forces, equipment etc. You say the US had a leading role, perhaps but that does not mean they were leading these other countries, just that they had a larger troop deployment.
So as you can see BBC does not refer to it as US-led, just because you can find a few times does not make it a majority nor mean they always have. Some of these also show its not just the US. Again I direct people to OEF=P, OAE, OEF-A, Waziristan War, etc for more information on operations that do not include wars and some that do not include US at all, and some that do not include US leading. Hence US led is a bad way to attempt to strangle hold the article. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 18:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
It was just a target of terrorist attacks. By that logic, we should include Madrid and London in this article. Don't fear the Reaper 07:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all I realise this may draw comparison with the above heading but from my point of view that's accidental, though maybe it reflects something. Anyway the list of participants shows Lebanon as a campaign (or theatre). Israel is shown as an ally in the War on Terror in that campaign. I completely understand that, but left as it is it's a problem:
So, does this not make Lebanon an ally in the War on Terror and if not why not?
Italy is an ally in the War on Terror. If Hezbollah is not considered a terrorist group why is Israel an ally in the War on Terror through its campaign in Lebanon?
It seems to depend quite a bit who's writing the story. Some news organisations (including in the U.S.) write "so-called war on terror". Some write "War on Terror". Clearly there is such a thing as a "War on Terror". But it rather looks as though the only thing it undeniably is...is the U.S. headline for its own and everybody else's various "wars on terror". Hakluyt bean 21:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just read thro all of the above and it quite clear that whatever any amount of other people say Rangeley and ZeroFaults will simply over-rule them. Who are these people? Did anyone elect them? Wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia that 'anyone can edit' Those edits will not last long if you don't agree with these two Americans. I am cynical and disillusioned with the whole project. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not answered my questions. How does one get to be a Wiki editor? How does a contributor get to be 'indef banned'? Who decides these things. Who is this website funded by anyway? SmokeyTheFatCat 20:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This article seems very confused. The phrase was being used long before the September 2001 attacks, see this article as just one example:
"CLINTON'S DUBIOUS WAR ON TERRORISM" By Edward Zehr Washington Weekly August 31, 1998
http://tinyurl .com/qjv8n
Surely a truly neutral encyclopedic article can only examine this (highly politically charged) phrase in its political sense? The article appears to describe many current and historical military events under the umbrella of this phrase while providing virtually no context about the phrase's politcal and cultural significance.
I do not believe that this phrase can be meaningfully used in historical and factual terms to describe as one "war on terror" a collection of events carried out over a long period, by different states in different parts of the world etc.
Therefore POV tag added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.139.126 ( talk • contribs)
Unsigned '126 has a valid point. The article needs to add some material on previous Wars on Terror by the U.S. At a minimum, we need to disambiguate by explaining near the top that there have been previous Wars on Terror with dates and some links. In addition, Russia is waging its war so called war on terror in Chechnya (with linked bombings in Moscow and elsewhere) and there may be other examples. Without these explanations, the article is susceptible to the criticism that it suffers from historical amnesia and that WP is US-centric. -- NYCJosh 05:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
When I first read through this article, I was suprised at the amount of POV. Most other articles I've read on Wikipedia that cover controversial topics seem to be fairly balanced in terms of presenting both sides of an issue throughout the article. This article seems to present the entire "War on Terror" from a very U.S.-centric POV, without any indication that a large number of people disagree with all or some of the ideology and/or action involved. No, I can't give you a citation for that, but I can tell you that where I live (Canada), a large majority of the people I've talked to, from all kinds of economic, religious, social, political, etc. backgrounds, would find this article very biased, whether or not they agree with the content.
The article uses phrases like "[The September 11 attack] created an immediate demand for a response against those responsible throughout the United States" and "The use of force against Iraq was authorized by the United States Congress in October 2002", among others. The words "United States" appear 27 times in the article, not counting info boxes, captions, citations, or the "Criticism" section. I don't think it can be denied that this article is written with a U.S. POV.
In the "International Support" section, various countries are listed, implying that they support the U.S. War on Terrorism. I can't speak for other countries, but I'm fairly certain that neither the majority of Canada's people nor the Canadian government is in support of the U.S War on Terrorism. We have been involved in the rebuilding of Afghanistan and have intentionally not been involved in the invasion of Iraq. Our presence in Afghanistan has rarely, if ever, been referred to as part of a War on Terrorism. Canada having soldiers in some of the same places as the U.S. War on Terrorism, even working alongside those soldiers, does not make Canada a supporter of this campaign.
My suggestion is that either the name of this article be changed to "U.S. War on Terrorism," to reflect the bias of the article, or that the article be rewritten from a more global perspective, discussing the War on Terrorism as a U.S. concept, and presenting more of the views of other countries as well.
PurpleRain 16:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Its true, this article is incredible US-centric in its POV. I tried to add a criticism section only to have a cabal of editors gut most of it. I've encountered this at several other wiki pages, a gang of US editors aggressively 'defending' pages against non-American opinions, constantly claiming that 'consensus' is on their side and that anything other than mainstream US media is a non-reliable source (quite ironic really, given how the rest of the western world views the US media).
There must be discussions of other wars on terrorism, e.g. the ones waged previously by America, the one waged by Russia in Chechnya and the one waged by the British Empire in Malaysia. Leaving this information out is, in my view, POV pushing. Pretty much lying by omission.
Also, saying a country 'supports' the war on terrorism falsely implies that both its leadership and population are behind it. This is incorrect in the case of many US allies e.g. the UK and Pakistan. Damburger 09:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a contraversial issue, and it seems there is substantial disagreement about how the article should go. I'm going to make a couple of suggestions to maybe help resolve the disputes and produce a better article at the same time.
Any suggestions? Damburger 11:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your posts, it makes thnigs easier to follow. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Part of what you have argued is factually wrong. The GWOT is not an exclusively military operation. There have been numerous domestic policies that have been stated by the US administration as part of the GWOT: So point 2 is wrong.
I'm not trying to 'tear this article apart' I am trying to improve it. The other wars on terrorism should have their own articles but the should also have a presence in this article.
I'm not denying that the military actions in the GWOT are important - but I don't think such detail is required in the main article. I'm guessing you are either a member of the military or take a great deal of interest in it. Most people don't share that perspective and would rather see a general view than the details provided here.
4 I suppose is acceptable for now - but given how important this topic is right now I would suggest not using an off-the-shelf template for it in the long run. Damburger 12:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to expand the terrorist attacks are mentioned because that is how terrorists fight back, Bali is linked to al-Qeada which is a direct combatant in OEF-A and Waziristan War. Australian Embassy bombing was commited by Abu Sayyaf a group with strong ties to al-Qeada and Jemaah Islamiyah targets in OEF-P -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Damburger: I applaud your efforts to work on a rewrite of this article. Perhaps you can present the same information with a less one-sided U.S. POV. PurpleRain 13:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Zer0faults: To quote you above: "This article again is about the military campaign, moving the military stuff out would change that would it not?"
I think that is exactly the point that Damburger is trying to make. The WOT/GWOT or whatever else you want to call it is so much more than a military campaign that it would make more sense to discuss the general ideology of the War on Terrorism here, and move the military stuff to another article. Yes, it would change that this article is about the military campaign. That's the point. PurpleRain 13:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
PurpleRain and Damburger, how about instead of eating up time and space on this discussion page you start a rewrite for this article at /rewrite or something like that. If it is of significant quality and from a more globalized POV than the current article than the current article can be moved to a subarticle that addresses the American War on Terrorism and the rewrite can be placed here in its place. -- Bobblehead 19:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
And I will move it back, until someone can prove that this is the an american only or primarily american in terms of operations, then it is not for us to make that statement. Calling this the american war on terrorism when it involves many nations and many operations not involving the US and many with the US being a smaller contributor then others, it seems some people here need to read the articles here instead of just commenting on their personal opinions. How can it be American WOT when:
Unless someone can show that the US is the only contributor, or even main contributor for a majority of the operations, and do it without violating WP:OR, then its obviously not a US WOT. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Canada's Support for War on Terrorism through actions in Afghanistan:
Since they have declared they are operating in support of the War on Terrorism by action through OEF-A. You would need to show a source stating they no longer support the War on Terrorism and that their participation in Afghanistan is a seperate conflict as some keep eluding too but not proving. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I wish to add the following link ( http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/) to the external links section of the War on Terror page, but as I am personally involved in this site I'm throwing it open for discussion.
Cons: there's a commercial nature to the website
Pros: it's of cultural value and provides content that is relevant, unique and in addition to the Wiki article
Thoughts/ comments welcome.
Cheers
82.6.104.229 14:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Andrew
The article contains the following (hidden) comment: "Do not put quotations around the bolded name; it is contrary to normal conventions and inherently POV." In my opinion, placing quote symbols around a phrase simply serves to identify a phrase used by people whom the author is quoting. I do not think that placing quotes around a phrase is "inherently POV". On the contrary, not placing quotes around phrases implies an acceptance of the use of a term, and may often be POV (when used with a phrase that implies a particular perspective on a subject), whereas using a phrase in quotes is typically not POV. Is there some generally-agreed policy about whether placing things in quotes is discouraged in Wikipedia? (I previously encountered a similar assertion by someone on another Wikipage, and I would like to know what others think.) — Wookipedian 06:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you please clarify, you keep stating its POV, but not who's or what that POV is. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This country should be included at the combatant forces in the War of Terror.
Please discuss with me if you think this. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
201.230.239.63 (
talk •
contribs)
(Spelling corrected in section title - originally "Afganisthan". - Wookipedian 21:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC))
I provided a link to work by three Columbia University researchers.
Yet, Rangeley has removed this reference, simply saying 'yea, right' in the edit summary. This is inappropriate. I have supplied encyclopedia worthy material with a reference. Rangeley did not discuss on this page his rationale for excising thiss. Dogru144 18:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
This just surfaced http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf and it is ideal for illustration of this: "Iraq had no role in the September 11 attacks and had no known history of a significant working relationship with Al Qaida.". Here is an excerpt: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm. Lovelight 21:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Criticism of the War on Terrorism an integral part of the War on Terrorism article? Isn't the whole point of having a NPOV to be that you try to capture both support and dissent regarding a controversial topic within the article on that topic? Patiwat 03:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not immediately obvious to me why having a section devoted to unrebutted criticisms without a corresponding "Support for the WoT" is particularly NPOV. I would suggest either adding such a section, or removing this section entirely. J. Langton 22:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
If this article is about military campaigns and operations claimed to be under the guise of the WOT then it seems to me that criticisms ought to be limited to the failures of those operations. Criticisms based on the ideology of the WOT are explored in the other article. Pendragon39 16:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don’t know why someone keeps deleting France in the “international support” section. Soldiers from the 1er Régiment de Parachutistes d'Infanterie de Marine and aircraft from the aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle and Armée de l'Air Mirage 2000 ground-attack aircraft took part in the initial operation in Afghanistan and French forces have participated in offensive and ISAF operations in Afghanistan since.
French forces have also contributed with US forces and others as part of Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa. Chwyatt 08:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the npov tag because I object to drive-by anons (198.107.240.50) slapping such tags on articles and then doing nothing to either fix the pov or at least make their case for what's wrong. I haven't been involved with this article, but if you think it should remain, plz state what's currently POV here so we can clean it up. Armon 09:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This seems to have a lot of redundant info which should be in War on Terrorism - Theaters of operation -comments? Armon 13:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Just in case, here's a discussion section to discuss the strawpoll. -- Bobblehead 18:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This article needn't change its name because "War on Terror" really is a genuine term that refers to a set of conflicts that this article describes. This article is fine. The qualm (which I raised preceding Bobblehead's initiation of this poll) is on the heading of the War on Terrorism template. When a pan-article infobox (which state FACTS) dubs the entire set of wars and conflicts as a "war on terrorism" then Wikipedia is endorsing a political standpoint. This is simply not NPOV. -- Alfakim-- talk 00:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The discussions in this page show by themselves that the consensus is still a dream here. There are different POVs on the subject and some people are fighting for their POV instead of trying to reach an agreement.
To me “War on Terror” is first of all a slogan. President Bush used it immediately after 9/11, well before there where any so called campaigns or even plans carrying the name. Tt reminds me of the change President Bush was forced to make in the name of one of the operations because it wasn’t simply a name, it was also a slogan carrying a message, which Arab and Muslim countries refused to accept – “Divine Justice”, was it?
The article should show the slogan characteristic of the title from the very beginning, in my opinion, and that could be achieved by the use of quotation marks in the title as suggested. At most both the title and the template could be ‘’War on Islamic Terrorism’’, if it is supposed to illustrate the content. But that’s a difficult one to advocate, right? It’s far from being politically correct...
I suggest ”War on Terrorism” led by the US just to attend to the allegation that somebody else will make an other article under the “War on Terrorism” title. DavidMarciano 17:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I was asked above by User:Zer0faults to cite some sources that do not accept the term "war on terror" (without the quotes around it) as a neutral term, or that put quotes around it. I am glad, after seeing some comments from others above, to see that I am not entirely alone in thinking that the phrase is not universally accepted as the proper neutral term for this set of activites. However, User:Zer0faults is certainly right to ask for sources for things that people think are the case — so I very much support User:Zer0faults's suggestion to provide some evidence. Here are some sources that either use quotes around the phrase or refer to it as the "so-called 'War on terrorism'" or say something about the phrase being non-neutral propaganda or some combination of those things: [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40]. Please don't pick too hard at my individual choices of examples - I simply listed some of what popped up in Google's News search service without putting a lot of effort into cherry-picking. I think it should now be clear that there are a number of reliable sources that question the WOT phrase (without quotes) as the proper way to refer to these US-led activities. — Wookipedian 04:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Zer0faults said: “I have already demonstrated that this article isn't showing it from the US perspective”
Demonstrated? Just take note of some quotations from the introduction of the article itself (so, before the operations sections, which the introduction is supposed to intruce):
In the Lead Section: “... is a campaign by the United States...”; “This campaign was launched by the United States following the September 11, 2001 attacks”...; “In addition to governmental actions in the War on Terrorism, several private organizations have payed a role in gathering intelligence and supporting the effort.”
In the Overview: “… attacks on the US and its allies…” – where is there any refference to how the allies reacted?; “The latter attacks …/… created an immediate demand throughout the United States for a decisive response.”
Next section: “Operative definition in U.S. foreign policy”: “The United states has defined terrorism under…”; “… President Bush has stated that:”; “The United states has based its counterterrorist strategy…”; “Defend U.S. citizens at home and abroad.”
So, the article isn’t showing it from the US perstective, right? DavidMarciano 13:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The American perspective is that this is a war and it is on terrorism. First of all, if one sticks to the term “war” one needs to be very aware of its concept. Nothing is a war just because somebody wants to call it a war, doesn’t matter how important that “somebody” is. It being on terrorism, is also the American perspective, which others followed (in order not to get in a wording “war”, that’s my guess).
Secondly, one thing I know for sure: “war on terrorism” is above all a slogan which suits perfectly a propaganda campaign, not only inside the US, but also in the western countries in general. As I’ve said, I think President Bush used the slogan just after the attacks, before there were any plans or any names chosen.
Making an article around US options, decisions, objectives, etc. and not mentioning any of other participants’ participants options, decisions, objectives, etc. is putting it in an American perspective.
The facts are based around US, Zer0faults say. I recall Bali, London, Madrid, Turkey and that the article doesn’t mention any options, decisions or objectives of the countries directly involved. That’s forgetting others perspectives, thus reinforcing the American ones by omission.
The refusal of France, Germany, and others (afterwards joined by Spain, which withdraw) to participate in the invasion of Iraq because there wasn’t evidence of it being connected to terrorism, shows that to include Iraq in the “war on terrorism” was an American perspective.
Putting the Hamas and the Lebanese Hezbollah in the list of terrorist organizations, and associating it to the “war on terrorism” and not to the Israel-Arab conflict, disregarding the opinion of the majority of the nations, makes it an American perspective.
So, to me, either there is somebody personally willing to make a point, doesn’t matter at which cost, or there is the intention of conveying a message instead of providing NPOV information. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
As this seems to be a recurring issue on this article (which I'm guilty of as well). How about instead of complaining about this article having a US bias we work on a rewrite? :) Based on the number of commentors above there is more in favor of removing the US bias (perceived or otherwise) than there are of keeping it. If an edit war erupts, Wikipedia has dispute resolution methods that can be undertaken. DavidMarciano what are you suggestions for removing the US bias? -- Bobblehead 14:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn’t say that threatening with an edit war and with some people being banned is exactly assuming good faith. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The template should be deleted. The photo doesn’t exemplify anything and the intervenients and casulaties are already mentioned further down in the article. The remaining information could be moved to the participants table, for example.
I don’t think Lebannon should be included. It goes under the long Israel-Arab conflict, in my opinion.
If this is to be an article on the military operations, the “US domestic initiatives” section should be removed. On the contrary, if this is to be a comprehensive article it should be expanded.
The casualties section should only refer to the theaters mentioned in the article.
Op Active Endeavor is not mentioned. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I meant the table at the right hand top of the article. I see now it’s not a template, it’s just a table. Sorry for the confusion.
I don’t think that forgetting the banning threat and adding the “bit paranoid” could be a smart strategy of defense. Anyway, I don’t make a case on that. I just suggest people to cool a little bit down so that we carry on with a civil discussion here. Everybody agrees it’s nicer and more fruitful, I’m pretty sure.
We have two positions here: Zer0faults on the side of military operations exclusively and Bobblehead on the side of more than military operations. I must say that I see it similarly to Bobblehead. I can accept the curfew example to show that there are domestic initiatives resulting from war. The point, however, is the “war on terror” started with domestic measures which did not result from anything happening in any overseas theatre of operations. The theater of operations was the continental US. Domestic measures were the first measures taken to fight terrorism and had a lot of impact in different areas. That’s were I agree with Bobblehead.
Coming back to my previous suggestion for the title, I think that titles and articles should match as close as possible and this is why I’ve chosen it. After some more thinking, however, I accept that the title “war on terror”, with quotes, and a start with “The so called…” would be a good enough match (“so called…” because it’s mainly propaganda). Besides it would be more appropriate, since it’s what people search for, and would be a good compromise among editors, I believe. To accommodate the way Zer0faults sees this article, anyway, the title should be ‘’The Military Component of the “War on Terrorism”’’. So, either with quotes and comprehensive (my preferred) or “The Military Component…”.
All these “war on…” articles should let clear from the beginning the slogan characteristic the titles have, which is nothing more than propaganda meant to get public support (a lot of times the public is not even aware of what’s going on under a “war on …”). I think an encyclopedia should avoid contributing to the propaganda by spreading the message as someone wants it to be spread. Of course, it shouldn’t be a vehicle of contra-propaganda either. It should just stick to NPOV. That’s why I advocate “with quotes”. Again, Lebanon and others in the “war on terror” is only propaganda in order to get support. I agree that it stays, but I advocate a way of letting the reader understand it is propaganda and why.
As people agree that it’s an American thing, I think the article should reflect the fact not only by stating it but also by not developing itself to an extent that imposes on the reader the idea of a global thing by mass, volume impact. I think the article should be rather small, mentioning how the “war on terror” initially developed and its several areas of impact. I change my suggestion of expanding the non-military part into making (or looking for) different articles for each area of impact (there is already a discussion point which points out redundancies).
This was long. Apologies. DavidMarciano 14:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The War on Terrorism or War on Terror (also the "Global War on Terrorism" or "GWOT" [1]) is the name used by the United States, enlisting the support of NATO members and other allies, for a campaign with the stated goal of ending international terrorism by preventing those groups said to be terrorist in nature from posing a threat, and by putting an end to state sponsorship of terrorism. <etc>
I said that I could endorse the text and I leave it as I said. However, I’m afraid I can’t agree with the last grounding. The thing is, neither “The Great War” nor “World War I” have any propaganda intention behind the naming. I don’t think it’s irrelevant a name depicting or not what it’s associated with. On the contrary, a name identifies a person. It is as much like so as when there are two persons with the same name one needs/uses a way of de-conflicting the confusion. Referring to Bob Barker or referring to a so-called Bob Barker is completely different. Besides, there are also nicknames and these are not to be mistaken with names. The same about concepts. Behind a specific word there is a specific concept and a different word means something different. DavidMarciano 17:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I swore I would steer clear of controversial articles... still.
This article seems to underplay actions taken by countries which count themselves as allies in the war on terrorism where the USA is not itself involved. These include Russia in Chechnya, Turkey, and India in Kashmir. Clearly they may have their own reasons for signing up to this cause, but that's politics. jimfbleak 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I see it is now " The Long War". I note also that this describes a 'war' that has not actually been going on too long (by historical standards) ; if rhetoric has no part to play in all of this I'll eat my hat - Washington Post / Guardian
However the new (long War) article is pretty balanced atm. Hakluyt bean 15:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Because of the simplicity I am sure this is overlooked and then undoubtly mocked when read. But, wouldn't the best solution to 'war on terror' simply be making peace? Once you have initiated war would you have not already created terror? Or visa versa. Seems "war on terror" is like war on war, which is like dirty on dirt. The idea of it as a subject in the encyclopdia with so much rhetoric leads me to wonder what people expect as victory from this war. In fact, it almost sounds scary. Do people really want to go all the way with this? Sounds like you would have created a hell. Does war have a different meaning or terrorism in the war on terrorism? Maybe this is a bad place to ask such questions but I have often wondered. I get images of everyone being at war with the idea. I wish the article was more to the point.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.37.95.27 ( talk • contribs) .
"In this case the War on Terrorism is a proper noun, equivalent to someone's name. So the need for the campaign to actually be a war or to be actually against terrorism is irrelevant." This is the bias. That is the sum of the whole problem. No need to really elaborate. If it were more to the point, we wouldn't already be presented with a "well the name doesn't mean what it says' from the beginning, it would point out that those who are terrorizing terrorism are indeed the terrorists themseleves. The point of the article is not clear because it is batteling a definition which does not quantify. If it is only a proper noun that is meaningless I wonder why there is a picture of a armed man on the page with a caption saying 'two soldiers'. Soldier, terrorist whatever it seems the name does relate but in a way to obscure. Whats next, war on 'the'? Regardless, the point here is obvious to be at war, to argue, to debate not to arrive at a final deduction with knowledge, wisdom and understanding. -jrey
Just to give an example, in the article (including the War on Terrorism template) there are 94 appearances of terror, terrorism or terrorist (includes 14 “war on terrorism”). In the “Further reading” and subsequent sections there are more 57 appearances (includes 12 more “war on terrorism”). Isn't this a try to, or the result of, getting it into peoples' minds?
Referring to the table, among other things what it refers to as “combatants” (names and flags) is in the template as “Main participants”. So, repeated information (to pass the idea, or because somebody managed the idea to pass, that's what I think).
I’ll try to do something, ok. Meanwhile, I say that I won't change the initial text myself, because I’ve agreed with it when I was asquesd to. But my opinion is known - “The so called…” should be there. Also, I think that it doesn’t present NATO’s support as it really was/is. NATO is engaged in fighting the so-called global terrorism, but I’ve never noticed any adherence to a “War on Terrorism” by NATO. Again, I won't change it myself, at least for the moment DavidMarciano 14:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism didn’t just appear for no reason. There are no reasons that can justify it, but certainly there are reasons behind its appearance. Saying that “Terrorist organizations had carried out attacks on the United States and allies”, insisting in the word ‘terrorist’’, and not making any reference, for slight it could be, to the reasons behind the attacks, is far from a NPOV. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant here. A slogan is a slogan, now or before. What I think is, this is here just to make it known that the slogan wasn’t a President Bush’s invent, which is irrelevant. Moreover, if there were other "wars on terrorism", this article shouldn’t be titled just as “war on terrorism”, for the sake of accuracy. If the previous “Wars on terrorism” are to be referred to merely as an usage of the phrase than that’s what as been a lot discussed for the present one – just an usage of the phrase. But if instead, presently it’s taken as “the” name, than one needs to de-conflict the three wars named “war on terrorism”. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The definition by the US would be important if the article were “War on terrorism seen by the US”. It leads back to the discussion on the article’s title. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I’m the one to blame for this one. Operation Active Endeavor is mentioned in the International support section and I didn’t recall it when I said it was missing. Anyway, it isn’t in Europe but in the Mediterranean. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The US says it belongs to the WoT, but I don’t think wikipedia’s position is already settled, since a lot of people don’t agree. Again, the discussion is about accepting to show the US position because of the “war on terrorism” being a US “campaign”, but not accepting to title it as “The US war on terrorism”. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
See Iraq War DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Many of this were among the first measures taken by the Administration following 9/11. It should be closer to the top, in my opinion. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don’t see how this can be important for the article, unless I think in terms of passing the message that this is just one more “military war”, for how strange I see the expression. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I find this misleading - it's suggesting that there is an expected ending. If I recall correctly, USA leaders have even stated that they expect (or at least, wish) it to last indefinetly. The Soviet Union is gone and we seemingly need another enemy to fight for decades at least. Peoplesunionpro 01:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Should this important new info be worked into the article?
"WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 — A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks.
The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington involved in preparing the assessment or who have read the final document." [42]
NBGPWS 06:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely! I was looking for it here, and couldn't find it. The amount of information is small, however - too small for it's own article, in my opinion. You might want to check this out too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5382762.stm
I think it should go under Criticisms of the "War on Terror". Kimera757 17:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
More on this note: Excerpt of declassified terror report and Bush aides defend Iraq terror report moves. There might be enough information to start an article on the US terror report by itself. Kimera757 17:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This section "Objective and strategies" is a bunch of US propaganda. I'm sure it does belong in the article, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be mispresented as factual. Shouldn't it say, these are the alleged objectives as stated by the US government, and shouldn't it have a citation to back up the claim that the US government actually alleges these objectives? It would be a shame to just remove these uncited allegations, because obviously someone believes in them enough to have typed them up...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.44.102.11 ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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In the article it says "the Taliban government offered to extradite bin Laden to a neutral nation". This seems to imply that our President had the opportunity to have bin Laden safely behind bars, therefore preventing any more harm coming to the public which supports him. I find it a very cruel thing to say about an elected official, and a fine example of this site's Liberal bias.
I have come to determine that the current conflict in lebanon should be considered part of the WoT due to mutual agreement between the Israeli government and the American government on it being part of it [2] [3]. Hezbollah is considered a terrorist organization by the USA, and the USA is supporting Israel in this conflict. The conflict from the beginning was said to be a part of it, as opposed to things such as the Chechen war which, while Putin claims is a part, this was after it had been happening for years. What are other peoples thoughts on its inclusion in this campaign? ~ Rangeley ( talk) 19:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Where is the criticism? I can't find it. This article is very pro-American and pro-War as I read it. The fact that the war by its own definition can have no conclusion should be quite prominently pointed out at least. Damburger 10:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The stuff is a direct C+P from "Criticisms of the War on Terrorism", which is why it looks very messy. I deliberately picked out the stuff which had citations in response to your comments about the previous criticisms section. WSW and Indymedia are no less reliable sources the Free Republic, so I don't see any reason to remove them. Damburger 14:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Stating we should keep sources that fail WP:RS because other sources fail WP:RS is not proper. Help cleanup the article do not further pollute it. If you feel a source is invalid thenr emove it or bring it up here for people to decide. Dont add other WP:RS sources, thats a WP:POINT violation. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 14:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The Iraq portion contains a number of unsubstantiated claims. Others are just plain wrong. I tried to correct these yesterday, providing detailed explanations for each change, but Rangeley reverted almost all my changes. Please provide citations for the following:
(1) After the September 11 attacks, fears that Iraq could use its alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction program to aid terrorist groups began to grow,
NYC: First, since the WMD were only suspected and turned out to be nonexistent, this sentence should be corrected "...the US gov't alleged that Iraq had WMD, and further advanced the idea that Iraq may aid terrorist groups using such WMD. Second, what "fears"? US government fears? Then it should state that. Otherwise, cite polling data for "growing fears." Connecting 9/11 with Iraq WMD is (now thoroughly debunked) US government spin. By repeating this spin here without making that clear we are helping to mislead.
The passive voice "fears" is imprecise. Does it mean US and other gov't fears, as you imply? Then it should say so. The Downing Street memo shows that the intelligence regarding WMD was going to be "fixed" to support the war. This shows that the WMD "fears" were not what was driving the decision to invade. So this "gov't fear" has to be clarified. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, so you seem to be saying it supports "alleged US gov't fears" or something like that formulation?-- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Alright, then the article should avoid the passive voice and state that Bush was allegedly afraid... and cite the Downing Street memo if you think that supports this. -- NYCJosh 21:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(2) leading the George W. Bush administration to call for a UNSC resolution.[16][17] United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 was passed unanimously, which offered Iraq "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" or face "serious consequences."
NYC: The Res 1441 also stated the UN Sec Council shall remain "seized of the matter." That's why the US wanted, unsuccessfully, to obtain a second resolution. Without this clarification, it's misleading, because it implies that member states such as the US were authorized by the Res to use force, which clearly they were not.
Ranegely, the very source you cite, 5 above states: "A small number of international legal experts also consider the phrase a linguistic maneuver to head off unilateral action. The theory goes that the Security Council is actually hinting to various national governments to hold off on, say, sending tanks across the Euphrates River, since the dispute is still being adjudicated."
I don't know what "small number" means or how he knows how many, but that's where I got my "entirely basesless" notion. Moreover, Res 1441 never authorizes member states (or anyone else) to use force. Thus, the UN Charter's prohibition remained. The reader is given the misimpression that somehow Res 1441 may have authorized the US-led coalition's invasion. Finally, there is no mention of proportionality. Even if force had been authorized to disarm Iraq of WMD, an invasion of the entire country and occupation of it would have been well beyond such a hypothetical authorization of WMD disarming.-- NYCJosh 19:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is the "seized of the matter" is quite relevant, as your source shows.-- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Your source supports the notion that at least according to some "international legal experts" the "seized of the matter" language further shows that the Res 1441 did not authorize member states to act. That is the issue we are discussing. Please read the short passage that I had pasted from the article at the beginning of this section. The sentence currently in the article quoting the "serious consequence" language misleads the reader into thinking that Res 1441 may have authorized the US or member states to attack. Res. 1441 never authorized use of force by any member states. This is why I think we need to qualify by citing the "seized" language and explaining that Res. 1441 never authorized the use of force by any member states. It made no change in the UN Charter's prohibition on U.N. member states using force against other member states. -- NYCJosh 22:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"They would not have sought a second resolution that included this language, due to the fact that the first had this language" --rather speculative. There were other things also in the second res that never passed that the US/UK may have wanted; "seized" may have been included as a compromise to France, Russia or other P5 states that wanted to continue UN inspections, it would take some research to figure out why it may have been included in the second res that never passed. However we can source the following: "Seized" according at least to some authorities means Sec Council and NOT member states. Thus, "seized" is relevant to the scope of Res 1441 and should be included.-- NYCJosh 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not dodging, I am simply not willing to speculate on the text of a proposed res. that was never voted on and how it got to be the way it did. It probably was not the work of one country. The text of the second Res was probably a negotiated compromise or an attempt at reaching compromise with P5 members opposed to US-led invasion. It's not my job to research the REASONS for why the US/UK supposedly supported specific language in resolutions never passed. There is probably a diplomatic record (some of it public some not) about the second res. The US was using all kinds of tactics, including bugging the NY missions of countries of the Sec. Council and threatening to cut off economic cooperation, to get a second res. It's an interesting history and if you want to enlighten me on the specifics, send me an e-mail. As I wrote yesterday, however, we do know the following: "Seized" according at least to some authorities (as confirmed by the source you cite) means the Sec Council and NOT member states. Thus, "seized" is relevant to the scope of Res 1441 and should be included. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read the second half of the Slate source cited by Rangeley about "seized" (5 above) before responding. -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your analogy. I don't pretend to know why that language was in the second Res never voted on, who put it in there and who opposed it. If you're curious, you're welcome to try to find out. Let me withdraw my earlier statement that "seized" was THE reason the US wanted a second Res. The US pursued (unsuccessfully) a second Res that would authorize the use of force by member states. But the source you cite is clear about what "seized" means according to some legal experts. That's really the only issue for this part of the article. I don't think we're in actual disagreement about this issue. -- NYCJosh 23:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(3) Saddam Hussein subsequently allowed UN inspectors to access some Iraqi sites, while the U.S. government continued to say that Iraq was being obstructionist, due to the fact that there were numerous sites made unavailable for inspection. [6] [7] [8]
NYC: Incorrect. There were no weapons-related sites in Februrary or March 2003 to which the UN inspectors were refused access.
Please identify such weapons-related sites to which Iraqi refused to allow inspectors. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 Part II. I did not see your response to this. Here is an excerpt from the first footnote (the Blix stament) for this sentence in the article: "Mr President, in my 27 January update to the council, I said that it seemed from our experience that Iraq had decided in principle to provide cooperation on process, most importantly prompt access to all sites and assistance to Unmovic in the establishment of the necessary infrastructure." I am distressed that this source was alleged by some editor to support the claim that Iraq refused entry to some sites. The source says no such thing. In fact it says the opposite: "prompt access to all sites and assistanc to UNmovic". This is either real carelessness or bad faith. The editor needs to explain (and of cource the claim should be removed). A sentence should be included that according Hanz Blix, in charge of the UN inspectors, Iraq was cooperating with the inspections and hundreds of sites were inspected. -- NYCJosh 22:17, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This impression remains, and we note that access to sites has so far been without problems, including those that had never been declared or inspected, as well as to Presidential sites and private residences.
(4) The use of force against Iraq was authorized by the United States Congress in October 2002 in order to "prosecute the war on terrorism." [18] After failing to overcome opposition from France, Russia, and China against a UNSC resolution that would sanction the use of force against Iraq, the United States instead assembled a Coalition of the Willing composed of nations who pledged support for a war against Iraq.[19]
NYC: Misleading. "Instead assembled" implies that the coalition imparts legitimacy just as the UN Sec COuncil could have done. This is clearly not true, since under the UN Charter (ratified by the US and other coalition members and therefore binding on them) attacking a fellow UN member state is illegal without UN Sec Council authorization (absent a threat of imminent attack).
Even the US did not allege threat of imminent attack. Used terms like "gathering threat." There is no evidence that Iraq EVER attacked or threatened to attack the US or any American interests. That was all US gov't spin. Iraq launched scuds against Israel in 1991 only after being attacked by the US; it invaded Kuwait only after it received what it quite reasonably thought was the green light from Washington (April Glassby transcrip).-- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I lost the thread of discussion here. If the issue is whether Iraq under Saddam has a history of posing a threat to the US, then the answer no. Saddam was still a reliable ally of the US in 1990, doing what Saddam quite reasonably believed the US deemed acceptable when he invaded Kuwait (see April Glassby transcript). The US then possibly changed its mind (Kuwait is not just a huge gas station so it doesn't matter if our ally Saddam controls it or is under control of our allies the dictators of Kuwait, as some US policy makers had stated) or the US was setting Saddam up. Sorry for the digression. -- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure how any of what you wrote relates to the senteces of the aricle under discussion. Let's stick to the article. -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(5) On March 19th, 2003, the invasion of Iraq was launched in what was touted as the "serious consequences" spoken of in UNSC Resolution 1441.
NYC: Misleading. The US touted it, but the sentence doesn't even make that clear. But it would still be misleading, see above comment about "seized of the matter."
NYC: Without qualification, without clarifying that it was the UK/US gov't who touted this idea, and it was spin because it was at best a half truth (Res 1441 did not authorize force), the reader is left with the impression that this "touting" is not particularly noteworthy and would have no reason to doubt its cogency. It's misleading. -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 I am glad we seem to be nearing agreement on some this. Since the article refers to Res 1441 and quotes "serious consequences," the article should mention the "seized of the matter" language in 1441 (b/c as dicussed yesterday, it is relevant, at least accoding to some scholars). Also. after quoting the "serious consequences" language, it should clarify that Res 1441 did not authorize any member states' use of force. The Res effected no change in the UN Charter's prohibition on the use of arms by member states to settle disputes. Without this clarification the "serious consequences" language of the article misleads the reader into thinking that Res 1441 authorized the US-led invasion.-- NYCJosh 20:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
(6) Saddam Hussein's regime was quickly toppled and on May 1, 2003, George W. Bush stated major combat operations in Iraq had ended. [9] But the war continued on as an insurgency, at first from loyalists and later by radical elements such as Al Qaeda in Iraq.
NYC: This sequence "at first loyalists and later..." is not supported, and I believe is incorrect. Also, it neglects to mention other insurgents who are neither Saddam loyalits nor radical shiites: young Iraqis who want an end to occupation; in other words, a home grown insurgency.
I never made any claim regarding sequence. Why are you putting words into my mouth? -- NYCJosh 19:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 OK, again, I am glad we're near agreement. The Fox source states that the US discovered Saddam gov't documents laying the plans for some type of resistance after the fall of Saddam. It says nothing about who made up the insurgents or anything about the percentage breakdown. In 2003 was it predominantly (approximately 90% 51% 33% 10%) Saddamists? Local residents fighting against the invasion? Foreign fighters? I recall a report that fewer than 10% were foreign fighters. The article should not make unsupported claims.-- NYCJosh 20:29, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 (Part II) - No, that's not what I am saying. I simply stated, NOT for includion in the article, an unsourced statement about the small number of foreign fighters. There is a basic conceptual error implicit in your argument (which is consistent with the impression one may get from watching too much American broadcast news). In addition to Baathists, and foreign fighters, there exists a huge number (probably the vast majority but I cannot document this) of Iraqi insurgents who are neither of the above; rather, they are homegrown fighters for ending the occupation and occupation-imposed governing structure and/or people fighting for ending Shiite domination. Be that as it may, to sustain the claim about sequence and preponderance of type of fighters (loyalists, etc.) now present in the article, there would have to be some citation. -- NYCJosh 21:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 21 NYC: Rangeley, if you wish it to be included in the article you have to provide a source for your claim that "who wanted Saddam to be back in power were the ones who continued fighting after May 1." Maybe, but maybe many/most are fighting to rid their country of the US-led occupation, the governing structure imposed by the foreign occupiers, and/or the Shiite domination of the country. Also for your claim that "But today, those who make up the insurgency ... are Wahhabi-influenced groups."
Stating insurgents loyal to Saddam wanted Saddam back in power ... seems pretty obvious. As for who makes it up now, I think we can find a source on that most likely. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 23:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What source is there that shows that Saddam loyalists made up the lion's share in 2003? It's not obvious to me. -- NYCJosh 20:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "the war continued on as an insurgency, at first from loyalists and later by radical elements such as Al Qaeda in Iraq" mean if not that the majority or preponderance of the insurgetns were at fist loyalists and later radical elements such as al qaida? -- NYCJosh 22:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
"Baath loyalists launched most of the first attacks in the insurgency, this we know" How do you know this? Please provide a source. Also, provide source for: now mainly radicals like al qaida.-- NYCJosh 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The Time source acknoweldges at least in part relying on US military sources for its information. Remember this is the same US gov't that had been selling the WMD story (with much success--2/3 of Americans believed even after the invasion that Iraq had WMD) and was trying to portray the insurgency as largely a continuation of Saddam's evil forces. I will look for a source that provides a different perspective. Sill the sentence as currently written "at first from loyalists" overstates the facts and is not supported by this Time source. The Time source alleges that Baathists were leaders of some of the insurgency. It does not say that the insurgency had been primarily made up of loyalists, which is the clear implication of the sentence as it now reads. Also "later by radical elements such as al qaida" is not supported. The Time source says the Iraqi insurgents were acting more like religious Muslims in their personal habits to fit in better as a Jihadist movement and including foreign fighters in their units. That's quite different from "radical elements." -- NYCJosh 19:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please read my comments about how the Time source does not fully support the claims in the article under discussion. MSC? -- NYCJosh 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to advance the article along, here is a source on the compostion of the insurgency I have not yet had a chance to read. http://www.usip.org/pubs/specialreports/sr134.html. But one point in the introduction helps explain who some of the different types of people the Sunni Baathists are and what they think they're fighting for. Most of the Baathists are first and foremost Iraqi nationalists or pan-arabists, who are fighting the foreign occupiers and the governing structures they set up. This is just an example, there are other important factions of the insurgency. Our article doen't necessarily have to go into a lengthy analyis, but should give some perspective on the conflict, which would include a sentence or two on the insurgents and their guerilla war aims. -- NYCJosh 21:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(7) Nearly 2,900 soldiers from the coalition have been killed, with an estimated 67,000 Insurgents killed or jailed. [10]
NYC: Please cite a page number in the long Brookings institution report for the 67,000 figure. I could not find it and it seems too high.
Aug 18 If you're referring to the Chart on p 18, it describes total number killed or detained. How do you know who many got killed? -- NYCJosh 20:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 18 (Part II). OK, I made a mistake as to that part of the sentence (somehow I did not see "and jailed"). But "detained" (as stated in the Brroking source) is not the same as "jailed." Detained includes captured and held without charge. There are tens of thousands of such in Iraq held indefinetly (unourced factual allegaion on my part). Jail may imply convicted or being held pending trial. If that minor change in wording were made I would agree to that part of the sentence. -- NYCJosh 21:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Aug 21 NYC. I added numbers 1-7 to the passage to make it easier to follow each thread of our discussion. -- NYCJosh 22:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes in the article based our discussion here so far. -- NYCJosh 05:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
You may wish to read WP:CITE#How to ask for citations. In general, if you would like a source provided for a line and it's not doubtful then use {{ fact}}, if the line is doubtful but not too harmful, then mark it with {{tl:verify source}}. In general if the request remains for over a week it is generally acceptable to remove the line in question, but that doesn't mean it won't be reverted back into existence. The only time it is acceptable to outright delete a line without the tags having been there for a period of time or moving them to the talk page for discussion is if the information is very doubtful and very harmful to the subject of the article and/or Wikipedia. If you believe that a line is doubtful rather than outright removal, you may wish to provide a line that counters the existing line while awaiting a citation, just make sure to keep it NPOV and source it. On the patently false and harmful front, it is also preferable to not only remove the line, but to also add a line, with sources, into the article that shows the line deleted to be false. On a side note, I saw in one of the comments above that "it's pretty common knowledge", unfortunately that's generally not an acceptable response to a content dispute, sources are much better and should be fairly easy to find in this case. :) -- Bobblehead 21:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your input. I am not sure why you're addressing me primarily. If you look at the additions I made to the Iraq piece of the article, most were deleted without explanation.-- NYCJosh 20:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it would introduce some balance to acknowledge for non-U.S. readers that there is a cultural divide (sometimes a political one, but imo mostly cultural) with the terminology and what it describes. There is clearly a difference between a war against terrorism and elevating that to a formal description: The War on Terror. Afaik, the latter is only formal U.S. usage. See for example the War on Drugs, usually referred to as the "war on drugs". Similarly this topic is often referred to as "the so-called war on terror" or "George Bush's war on terror" etc. by news outlets around the world.
On first glance it just seems to be the name of U.S. involvement in anti-terrorism, which the world and his wife have historically been engaged in irrespective of calling it anything in particular. The article as it is (particularly with the Military Conflict InfoBox) risks generating a certain cultural dissonance. If it was written by non-U.S. editors it would be entirely different. Maybe some editors would like to reflect that(?) Hakluyt bean 18:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
"Did you just say it would be culturally ok if non-US editors wrote it". No. I said it would be good if editors reflected cultural difference Hakluyt bean 17:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
George Bush's War on Terrorism is a faulty name because George Bush doesnt decide when the US goes to war. The United States decides when it goes to war by an Act of Congress which is what happened with Afghanistan and Iraq. You keep saying the readers perspective or reffering to it, however we are not attempting to appeal to people we are attempting to present verifiable and factual information. If the person does not know their country is supplying troops, intel, training etc, that does not mean it should not be included, it means that person is reading an article in which they will learn something about their countries involvement in this greater conflict. You say the US has a leading military role, however the first "war" started during this campaign was in Afghanistan, which had major roles by Canada and the UK and now by NATO and a alrger role by Canada. There were numerous nations that provided air space, landing strips, use of coastal routes, inteliigence, soldiers, police forces, equipment etc. You say the US had a leading role, perhaps but that does not mean they were leading these other countries, just that they had a larger troop deployment.
So as you can see BBC does not refer to it as US-led, just because you can find a few times does not make it a majority nor mean they always have. Some of these also show its not just the US. Again I direct people to OEF=P, OAE, OEF-A, Waziristan War, etc for more information on operations that do not include wars and some that do not include US at all, and some that do not include US leading. Hence US led is a bad way to attempt to strangle hold the article. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 18:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
It was just a target of terrorist attacks. By that logic, we should include Madrid and London in this article. Don't fear the Reaper 07:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all I realise this may draw comparison with the above heading but from my point of view that's accidental, though maybe it reflects something. Anyway the list of participants shows Lebanon as a campaign (or theatre). Israel is shown as an ally in the War on Terror in that campaign. I completely understand that, but left as it is it's a problem:
So, does this not make Lebanon an ally in the War on Terror and if not why not?
Italy is an ally in the War on Terror. If Hezbollah is not considered a terrorist group why is Israel an ally in the War on Terror through its campaign in Lebanon?
It seems to depend quite a bit who's writing the story. Some news organisations (including in the U.S.) write "so-called war on terror". Some write "War on Terror". Clearly there is such a thing as a "War on Terror". But it rather looks as though the only thing it undeniably is...is the U.S. headline for its own and everybody else's various "wars on terror". Hakluyt bean 21:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I have just read thro all of the above and it quite clear that whatever any amount of other people say Rangeley and ZeroFaults will simply over-rule them. Who are these people? Did anyone elect them? Wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia that 'anyone can edit' Those edits will not last long if you don't agree with these two Americans. I am cynical and disillusioned with the whole project. SmokeyTheFatCat 20:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
You have not answered my questions. How does one get to be a Wiki editor? How does a contributor get to be 'indef banned'? Who decides these things. Who is this website funded by anyway? SmokeyTheFatCat 20:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
This article seems very confused. The phrase was being used long before the September 2001 attacks, see this article as just one example:
"CLINTON'S DUBIOUS WAR ON TERRORISM" By Edward Zehr Washington Weekly August 31, 1998
http://tinyurl .com/qjv8n
Surely a truly neutral encyclopedic article can only examine this (highly politically charged) phrase in its political sense? The article appears to describe many current and historical military events under the umbrella of this phrase while providing virtually no context about the phrase's politcal and cultural significance.
I do not believe that this phrase can be meaningfully used in historical and factual terms to describe as one "war on terror" a collection of events carried out over a long period, by different states in different parts of the world etc.
Therefore POV tag added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.153.139.126 ( talk • contribs)
Unsigned '126 has a valid point. The article needs to add some material on previous Wars on Terror by the U.S. At a minimum, we need to disambiguate by explaining near the top that there have been previous Wars on Terror with dates and some links. In addition, Russia is waging its war so called war on terror in Chechnya (with linked bombings in Moscow and elsewhere) and there may be other examples. Without these explanations, the article is susceptible to the criticism that it suffers from historical amnesia and that WP is US-centric. -- NYCJosh 05:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
When I first read through this article, I was suprised at the amount of POV. Most other articles I've read on Wikipedia that cover controversial topics seem to be fairly balanced in terms of presenting both sides of an issue throughout the article. This article seems to present the entire "War on Terror" from a very U.S.-centric POV, without any indication that a large number of people disagree with all or some of the ideology and/or action involved. No, I can't give you a citation for that, but I can tell you that where I live (Canada), a large majority of the people I've talked to, from all kinds of economic, religious, social, political, etc. backgrounds, would find this article very biased, whether or not they agree with the content.
The article uses phrases like "[The September 11 attack] created an immediate demand for a response against those responsible throughout the United States" and "The use of force against Iraq was authorized by the United States Congress in October 2002", among others. The words "United States" appear 27 times in the article, not counting info boxes, captions, citations, or the "Criticism" section. I don't think it can be denied that this article is written with a U.S. POV.
In the "International Support" section, various countries are listed, implying that they support the U.S. War on Terrorism. I can't speak for other countries, but I'm fairly certain that neither the majority of Canada's people nor the Canadian government is in support of the U.S War on Terrorism. We have been involved in the rebuilding of Afghanistan and have intentionally not been involved in the invasion of Iraq. Our presence in Afghanistan has rarely, if ever, been referred to as part of a War on Terrorism. Canada having soldiers in some of the same places as the U.S. War on Terrorism, even working alongside those soldiers, does not make Canada a supporter of this campaign.
My suggestion is that either the name of this article be changed to "U.S. War on Terrorism," to reflect the bias of the article, or that the article be rewritten from a more global perspective, discussing the War on Terrorism as a U.S. concept, and presenting more of the views of other countries as well.
PurpleRain 16:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Its true, this article is incredible US-centric in its POV. I tried to add a criticism section only to have a cabal of editors gut most of it. I've encountered this at several other wiki pages, a gang of US editors aggressively 'defending' pages against non-American opinions, constantly claiming that 'consensus' is on their side and that anything other than mainstream US media is a non-reliable source (quite ironic really, given how the rest of the western world views the US media).
There must be discussions of other wars on terrorism, e.g. the ones waged previously by America, the one waged by Russia in Chechnya and the one waged by the British Empire in Malaysia. Leaving this information out is, in my view, POV pushing. Pretty much lying by omission.
Also, saying a country 'supports' the war on terrorism falsely implies that both its leadership and population are behind it. This is incorrect in the case of many US allies e.g. the UK and Pakistan. Damburger 09:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This is a contraversial issue, and it seems there is substantial disagreement about how the article should go. I'm going to make a couple of suggestions to maybe help resolve the disputes and produce a better article at the same time.
Any suggestions? Damburger 11:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Please sign your posts, it makes thnigs easier to follow. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Part of what you have argued is factually wrong. The GWOT is not an exclusively military operation. There have been numerous domestic policies that have been stated by the US administration as part of the GWOT: So point 2 is wrong.
I'm not trying to 'tear this article apart' I am trying to improve it. The other wars on terrorism should have their own articles but the should also have a presence in this article.
I'm not denying that the military actions in the GWOT are important - but I don't think such detail is required in the main article. I'm guessing you are either a member of the military or take a great deal of interest in it. Most people don't share that perspective and would rather see a general view than the details provided here.
4 I suppose is acceptable for now - but given how important this topic is right now I would suggest not using an off-the-shelf template for it in the long run. Damburger 12:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Just to expand the terrorist attacks are mentioned because that is how terrorists fight back, Bali is linked to al-Qeada which is a direct combatant in OEF-A and Waziristan War. Australian Embassy bombing was commited by Abu Sayyaf a group with strong ties to al-Qeada and Jemaah Islamiyah targets in OEF-P -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 11:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Damburger: I applaud your efforts to work on a rewrite of this article. Perhaps you can present the same information with a less one-sided U.S. POV. PurpleRain 13:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Zer0faults: To quote you above: "This article again is about the military campaign, moving the military stuff out would change that would it not?"
I think that is exactly the point that Damburger is trying to make. The WOT/GWOT or whatever else you want to call it is so much more than a military campaign that it would make more sense to discuss the general ideology of the War on Terrorism here, and move the military stuff to another article. Yes, it would change that this article is about the military campaign. That's the point. PurpleRain 13:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
PurpleRain and Damburger, how about instead of eating up time and space on this discussion page you start a rewrite for this article at /rewrite or something like that. If it is of significant quality and from a more globalized POV than the current article than the current article can be moved to a subarticle that addresses the American War on Terrorism and the rewrite can be placed here in its place. -- Bobblehead 19:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
And I will move it back, until someone can prove that this is the an american only or primarily american in terms of operations, then it is not for us to make that statement. Calling this the american war on terrorism when it involves many nations and many operations not involving the US and many with the US being a smaller contributor then others, it seems some people here need to read the articles here instead of just commenting on their personal opinions. How can it be American WOT when:
Unless someone can show that the US is the only contributor, or even main contributor for a majority of the operations, and do it without violating WP:OR, then its obviously not a US WOT. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 19:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Canada's Support for War on Terrorism through actions in Afghanistan:
Since they have declared they are operating in support of the War on Terrorism by action through OEF-A. You would need to show a source stating they no longer support the War on Terrorism and that their participation in Afghanistan is a seperate conflict as some keep eluding too but not proving. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I wish to add the following link ( http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/) to the external links section of the War on Terror page, but as I am personally involved in this site I'm throwing it open for discussion.
Cons: there's a commercial nature to the website
Pros: it's of cultural value and provides content that is relevant, unique and in addition to the Wiki article
Thoughts/ comments welcome.
Cheers
82.6.104.229 14:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Andrew
The article contains the following (hidden) comment: "Do not put quotations around the bolded name; it is contrary to normal conventions and inherently POV." In my opinion, placing quote symbols around a phrase simply serves to identify a phrase used by people whom the author is quoting. I do not think that placing quotes around a phrase is "inherently POV". On the contrary, not placing quotes around phrases implies an acceptance of the use of a term, and may often be POV (when used with a phrase that implies a particular perspective on a subject), whereas using a phrase in quotes is typically not POV. Is there some generally-agreed policy about whether placing things in quotes is discouraged in Wikipedia? (I previously encountered a similar assertion by someone on another Wikipage, and I would like to know what others think.) — Wookipedian 06:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you please clarify, you keep stating its POV, but not who's or what that POV is. -- zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This country should be included at the combatant forces in the War of Terror.
Please discuss with me if you think this. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
201.230.239.63 (
talk •
contribs)
(Spelling corrected in section title - originally "Afganisthan". - Wookipedian 21:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC))
I provided a link to work by three Columbia University researchers.
Yet, Rangeley has removed this reference, simply saying 'yea, right' in the edit summary. This is inappropriate. I have supplied encyclopedia worthy material with a reference. Rangeley did not discuss on this page his rationale for excising thiss. Dogru144 18:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
This just surfaced http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf and it is ideal for illustration of this: "Iraq had no role in the September 11 attacks and had no known history of a significant working relationship with Al Qaida.". Here is an excerpt: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm. Lovelight 21:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't Criticism of the War on Terrorism an integral part of the War on Terrorism article? Isn't the whole point of having a NPOV to be that you try to capture both support and dissent regarding a controversial topic within the article on that topic? Patiwat 03:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not immediately obvious to me why having a section devoted to unrebutted criticisms without a corresponding "Support for the WoT" is particularly NPOV. I would suggest either adding such a section, or removing this section entirely. J. Langton 22:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
If this article is about military campaigns and operations claimed to be under the guise of the WOT then it seems to me that criticisms ought to be limited to the failures of those operations. Criticisms based on the ideology of the WOT are explored in the other article. Pendragon39 16:03, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don’t know why someone keeps deleting France in the “international support” section. Soldiers from the 1er Régiment de Parachutistes d'Infanterie de Marine and aircraft from the aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle and Armée de l'Air Mirage 2000 ground-attack aircraft took part in the initial operation in Afghanistan and French forces have participated in offensive and ISAF operations in Afghanistan since.
French forces have also contributed with US forces and others as part of Operation Enduring Freedom - Horn of Africa. Chwyatt 08:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed the npov tag because I object to drive-by anons (198.107.240.50) slapping such tags on articles and then doing nothing to either fix the pov or at least make their case for what's wrong. I haven't been involved with this article, but if you think it should remain, plz state what's currently POV here so we can clean it up. Armon 09:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This seems to have a lot of redundant info which should be in War on Terrorism - Theaters of operation -comments? Armon 13:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Just in case, here's a discussion section to discuss the strawpoll. -- Bobblehead 18:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This article needn't change its name because "War on Terror" really is a genuine term that refers to a set of conflicts that this article describes. This article is fine. The qualm (which I raised preceding Bobblehead's initiation of this poll) is on the heading of the War on Terrorism template. When a pan-article infobox (which state FACTS) dubs the entire set of wars and conflicts as a "war on terrorism" then Wikipedia is endorsing a political standpoint. This is simply not NPOV. -- Alfakim-- talk 00:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The discussions in this page show by themselves that the consensus is still a dream here. There are different POVs on the subject and some people are fighting for their POV instead of trying to reach an agreement.
To me “War on Terror” is first of all a slogan. President Bush used it immediately after 9/11, well before there where any so called campaigns or even plans carrying the name. Tt reminds me of the change President Bush was forced to make in the name of one of the operations because it wasn’t simply a name, it was also a slogan carrying a message, which Arab and Muslim countries refused to accept – “Divine Justice”, was it?
The article should show the slogan characteristic of the title from the very beginning, in my opinion, and that could be achieved by the use of quotation marks in the title as suggested. At most both the title and the template could be ‘’War on Islamic Terrorism’’, if it is supposed to illustrate the content. But that’s a difficult one to advocate, right? It’s far from being politically correct...
I suggest ”War on Terrorism” led by the US just to attend to the allegation that somebody else will make an other article under the “War on Terrorism” title. DavidMarciano 17:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I was asked above by User:Zer0faults to cite some sources that do not accept the term "war on terror" (without the quotes around it) as a neutral term, or that put quotes around it. I am glad, after seeing some comments from others above, to see that I am not entirely alone in thinking that the phrase is not universally accepted as the proper neutral term for this set of activites. However, User:Zer0faults is certainly right to ask for sources for things that people think are the case — so I very much support User:Zer0faults's suggestion to provide some evidence. Here are some sources that either use quotes around the phrase or refer to it as the "so-called 'War on terrorism'" or say something about the phrase being non-neutral propaganda or some combination of those things: [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38] [39] [40]. Please don't pick too hard at my individual choices of examples - I simply listed some of what popped up in Google's News search service without putting a lot of effort into cherry-picking. I think it should now be clear that there are a number of reliable sources that question the WOT phrase (without quotes) as the proper way to refer to these US-led activities. — Wookipedian 04:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Zer0faults said: “I have already demonstrated that this article isn't showing it from the US perspective”
Demonstrated? Just take note of some quotations from the introduction of the article itself (so, before the operations sections, which the introduction is supposed to intruce):
In the Lead Section: “... is a campaign by the United States...”; “This campaign was launched by the United States following the September 11, 2001 attacks”...; “In addition to governmental actions in the War on Terrorism, several private organizations have payed a role in gathering intelligence and supporting the effort.”
In the Overview: “… attacks on the US and its allies…” – where is there any refference to how the allies reacted?; “The latter attacks …/… created an immediate demand throughout the United States for a decisive response.”
Next section: “Operative definition in U.S. foreign policy”: “The United states has defined terrorism under…”; “… President Bush has stated that:”; “The United states has based its counterterrorist strategy…”; “Defend U.S. citizens at home and abroad.”
So, the article isn’t showing it from the US perstective, right? DavidMarciano 13:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The American perspective is that this is a war and it is on terrorism. First of all, if one sticks to the term “war” one needs to be very aware of its concept. Nothing is a war just because somebody wants to call it a war, doesn’t matter how important that “somebody” is. It being on terrorism, is also the American perspective, which others followed (in order not to get in a wording “war”, that’s my guess).
Secondly, one thing I know for sure: “war on terrorism” is above all a slogan which suits perfectly a propaganda campaign, not only inside the US, but also in the western countries in general. As I’ve said, I think President Bush used the slogan just after the attacks, before there were any plans or any names chosen.
Making an article around US options, decisions, objectives, etc. and not mentioning any of other participants’ participants options, decisions, objectives, etc. is putting it in an American perspective.
The facts are based around US, Zer0faults say. I recall Bali, London, Madrid, Turkey and that the article doesn’t mention any options, decisions or objectives of the countries directly involved. That’s forgetting others perspectives, thus reinforcing the American ones by omission.
The refusal of France, Germany, and others (afterwards joined by Spain, which withdraw) to participate in the invasion of Iraq because there wasn’t evidence of it being connected to terrorism, shows that to include Iraq in the “war on terrorism” was an American perspective.
Putting the Hamas and the Lebanese Hezbollah in the list of terrorist organizations, and associating it to the “war on terrorism” and not to the Israel-Arab conflict, disregarding the opinion of the majority of the nations, makes it an American perspective.
So, to me, either there is somebody personally willing to make a point, doesn’t matter at which cost, or there is the intention of conveying a message instead of providing NPOV information. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
As this seems to be a recurring issue on this article (which I'm guilty of as well). How about instead of complaining about this article having a US bias we work on a rewrite? :) Based on the number of commentors above there is more in favor of removing the US bias (perceived or otherwise) than there are of keeping it. If an edit war erupts, Wikipedia has dispute resolution methods that can be undertaken. DavidMarciano what are you suggestions for removing the US bias? -- Bobblehead 14:37, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn’t say that threatening with an edit war and with some people being banned is exactly assuming good faith. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
The template should be deleted. The photo doesn’t exemplify anything and the intervenients and casulaties are already mentioned further down in the article. The remaining information could be moved to the participants table, for example.
I don’t think Lebannon should be included. It goes under the long Israel-Arab conflict, in my opinion.
If this is to be an article on the military operations, the “US domestic initiatives” section should be removed. On the contrary, if this is to be a comprehensive article it should be expanded.
The casualties section should only refer to the theaters mentioned in the article.
Op Active Endeavor is not mentioned. DavidMarciano 17:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I meant the table at the right hand top of the article. I see now it’s not a template, it’s just a table. Sorry for the confusion.
I don’t think that forgetting the banning threat and adding the “bit paranoid” could be a smart strategy of defense. Anyway, I don’t make a case on that. I just suggest people to cool a little bit down so that we carry on with a civil discussion here. Everybody agrees it’s nicer and more fruitful, I’m pretty sure.
We have two positions here: Zer0faults on the side of military operations exclusively and Bobblehead on the side of more than military operations. I must say that I see it similarly to Bobblehead. I can accept the curfew example to show that there are domestic initiatives resulting from war. The point, however, is the “war on terror” started with domestic measures which did not result from anything happening in any overseas theatre of operations. The theater of operations was the continental US. Domestic measures were the first measures taken to fight terrorism and had a lot of impact in different areas. That’s were I agree with Bobblehead.
Coming back to my previous suggestion for the title, I think that titles and articles should match as close as possible and this is why I’ve chosen it. After some more thinking, however, I accept that the title “war on terror”, with quotes, and a start with “The so called…” would be a good enough match (“so called…” because it’s mainly propaganda). Besides it would be more appropriate, since it’s what people search for, and would be a good compromise among editors, I believe. To accommodate the way Zer0faults sees this article, anyway, the title should be ‘’The Military Component of the “War on Terrorism”’’. So, either with quotes and comprehensive (my preferred) or “The Military Component…”.
All these “war on…” articles should let clear from the beginning the slogan characteristic the titles have, which is nothing more than propaganda meant to get public support (a lot of times the public is not even aware of what’s going on under a “war on …”). I think an encyclopedia should avoid contributing to the propaganda by spreading the message as someone wants it to be spread. Of course, it shouldn’t be a vehicle of contra-propaganda either. It should just stick to NPOV. That’s why I advocate “with quotes”. Again, Lebanon and others in the “war on terror” is only propaganda in order to get support. I agree that it stays, but I advocate a way of letting the reader understand it is propaganda and why.
As people agree that it’s an American thing, I think the article should reflect the fact not only by stating it but also by not developing itself to an extent that imposes on the reader the idea of a global thing by mass, volume impact. I think the article should be rather small, mentioning how the “war on terror” initially developed and its several areas of impact. I change my suggestion of expanding the non-military part into making (or looking for) different articles for each area of impact (there is already a discussion point which points out redundancies).
This was long. Apologies. DavidMarciano 14:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The War on Terrorism or War on Terror (also the "Global War on Terrorism" or "GWOT" [1]) is the name used by the United States, enlisting the support of NATO members and other allies, for a campaign with the stated goal of ending international terrorism by preventing those groups said to be terrorist in nature from posing a threat, and by putting an end to state sponsorship of terrorism. <etc>
I said that I could endorse the text and I leave it as I said. However, I’m afraid I can’t agree with the last grounding. The thing is, neither “The Great War” nor “World War I” have any propaganda intention behind the naming. I don’t think it’s irrelevant a name depicting or not what it’s associated with. On the contrary, a name identifies a person. It is as much like so as when there are two persons with the same name one needs/uses a way of de-conflicting the confusion. Referring to Bob Barker or referring to a so-called Bob Barker is completely different. Besides, there are also nicknames and these are not to be mistaken with names. The same about concepts. Behind a specific word there is a specific concept and a different word means something different. DavidMarciano 17:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I swore I would steer clear of controversial articles... still.
This article seems to underplay actions taken by countries which count themselves as allies in the war on terrorism where the USA is not itself involved. These include Russia in Chechnya, Turkey, and India in Kashmir. Clearly they may have their own reasons for signing up to this cause, but that's politics. jimfbleak 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I see it is now " The Long War". I note also that this describes a 'war' that has not actually been going on too long (by historical standards) ; if rhetoric has no part to play in all of this I'll eat my hat - Washington Post / Guardian
However the new (long War) article is pretty balanced atm. Hakluyt bean 15:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Because of the simplicity I am sure this is overlooked and then undoubtly mocked when read. But, wouldn't the best solution to 'war on terror' simply be making peace? Once you have initiated war would you have not already created terror? Or visa versa. Seems "war on terror" is like war on war, which is like dirty on dirt. The idea of it as a subject in the encyclopdia with so much rhetoric leads me to wonder what people expect as victory from this war. In fact, it almost sounds scary. Do people really want to go all the way with this? Sounds like you would have created a hell. Does war have a different meaning or terrorism in the war on terrorism? Maybe this is a bad place to ask such questions but I have often wondered. I get images of everyone being at war with the idea. I wish the article was more to the point.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.37.95.27 ( talk • contribs) .
"In this case the War on Terrorism is a proper noun, equivalent to someone's name. So the need for the campaign to actually be a war or to be actually against terrorism is irrelevant." This is the bias. That is the sum of the whole problem. No need to really elaborate. If it were more to the point, we wouldn't already be presented with a "well the name doesn't mean what it says' from the beginning, it would point out that those who are terrorizing terrorism are indeed the terrorists themseleves. The point of the article is not clear because it is batteling a definition which does not quantify. If it is only a proper noun that is meaningless I wonder why there is a picture of a armed man on the page with a caption saying 'two soldiers'. Soldier, terrorist whatever it seems the name does relate but in a way to obscure. Whats next, war on 'the'? Regardless, the point here is obvious to be at war, to argue, to debate not to arrive at a final deduction with knowledge, wisdom and understanding. -jrey
Just to give an example, in the article (including the War on Terrorism template) there are 94 appearances of terror, terrorism or terrorist (includes 14 “war on terrorism”). In the “Further reading” and subsequent sections there are more 57 appearances (includes 12 more “war on terrorism”). Isn't this a try to, or the result of, getting it into peoples' minds?
Referring to the table, among other things what it refers to as “combatants” (names and flags) is in the template as “Main participants”. So, repeated information (to pass the idea, or because somebody managed the idea to pass, that's what I think).
I’ll try to do something, ok. Meanwhile, I say that I won't change the initial text myself, because I’ve agreed with it when I was asquesd to. But my opinion is known - “The so called…” should be there. Also, I think that it doesn’t present NATO’s support as it really was/is. NATO is engaged in fighting the so-called global terrorism, but I’ve never noticed any adherence to a “War on Terrorism” by NATO. Again, I won't change it myself, at least for the moment DavidMarciano 14:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Terrorism didn’t just appear for no reason. There are no reasons that can justify it, but certainly there are reasons behind its appearance. Saying that “Terrorist organizations had carried out attacks on the United States and allies”, insisting in the word ‘terrorist’’, and not making any reference, for slight it could be, to the reasons behind the attacks, is far from a NPOV. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
This is irrelevant here. A slogan is a slogan, now or before. What I think is, this is here just to make it known that the slogan wasn’t a President Bush’s invent, which is irrelevant. Moreover, if there were other "wars on terrorism", this article shouldn’t be titled just as “war on terrorism”, for the sake of accuracy. If the previous “Wars on terrorism” are to be referred to merely as an usage of the phrase than that’s what as been a lot discussed for the present one – just an usage of the phrase. But if instead, presently it’s taken as “the” name, than one needs to de-conflict the three wars named “war on terrorism”. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The definition by the US would be important if the article were “War on terrorism seen by the US”. It leads back to the discussion on the article’s title. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I’m the one to blame for this one. Operation Active Endeavor is mentioned in the International support section and I didn’t recall it when I said it was missing. Anyway, it isn’t in Europe but in the Mediterranean. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The US says it belongs to the WoT, but I don’t think wikipedia’s position is already settled, since a lot of people don’t agree. Again, the discussion is about accepting to show the US position because of the “war on terrorism” being a US “campaign”, but not accepting to title it as “The US war on terrorism”. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
See Iraq War DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Many of this were among the first measures taken by the Administration following 9/11. It should be closer to the top, in my opinion. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I don’t see how this can be important for the article, unless I think in terms of passing the message that this is just one more “military war”, for how strange I see the expression. DavidMarciano 21:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I find this misleading - it's suggesting that there is an expected ending. If I recall correctly, USA leaders have even stated that they expect (or at least, wish) it to last indefinetly. The Soviet Union is gone and we seemingly need another enemy to fight for decades at least. Peoplesunionpro 01:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Should this important new info be worked into the article?
"WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 — A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks.
The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington involved in preparing the assessment or who have read the final document." [42]
NBGPWS 06:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Absolutely! I was looking for it here, and couldn't find it. The amount of information is small, however - too small for it's own article, in my opinion. You might want to check this out too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5382762.stm
I think it should go under Criticisms of the "War on Terror". Kimera757 17:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
More on this note: Excerpt of declassified terror report and Bush aides defend Iraq terror report moves. There might be enough information to start an article on the US terror report by itself. Kimera757 17:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This section "Objective and strategies" is a bunch of US propaganda. I'm sure it does belong in the article, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be mispresented as factual. Shouldn't it say, these are the alleged objectives as stated by the US government, and shouldn't it have a citation to back up the claim that the US government actually alleges these objectives? It would be a shame to just remove these uncited allegations, because obviously someone believes in them enough to have typed them up...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.44.102.11 ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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