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This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 6, 2005 and October 1, 2005.
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Please add new archivals to Talk:Foo/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Lee Hunter 03:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
As a relative newby to Wikipedia I'm a bit nervous about modifying a page as contentious as this one, but as a Brit I find the reference to "London subway bombings" sounds a bit odd: it's NEVER referred to as the 'subway', it's called the Underground. Eliot
Doesn't Graft have a point in the September 11th discussion page about the CIA being involved in acts of terrorism?
QUOTE:
Slim, I noticed you described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Well, according to you, most military action by the US army is terrorist in nature. If we go by what you say (which I agree with), then we have to label most US military action accordingly.
You can't have your cake and eat it - either killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is terrorism or it isn't. (Posted by 82.35.107.44)
Hi Anon, I'm not sure where I've described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Can you be more specific? Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean this one: "United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] ( http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html) "Academic Consensus Definition":
"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988). The U.S. government isn't a clandestine or semi-clandestine individual, group or state actor; and it doesn't choose as direct targets of violence people who are not its main targets. Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Not quite true - the CIA is a clandestine state actor, and has been engaged in actions targetting people who are not its main targets, e.g. Nicaraguan peasants, et alia. Graft 05:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I see what you mean, Graft. Also, as SNIyer1 has re-inserted the "effects on children" section, I've edited it to include the links, which were not added back in. Slim 17:15, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
END QUOTE
If so, shouldn't it be addressed in the opposition section of the main War on Terror page?
Well, if there are no complaints, I'm going ahead and changing it.
(Whoever wrote this should read up on logic a bit. It centers around the fallacy that since no evidence proves it -not- to be true, it can and must be true. This is an example of a logical circular argument at its finest. "Since you cannot prove I am lying, I must be telling the truth.")
(I think you got your phallusies mixed up there buddy, it's not circular reasoning, it is an argumentum ad ignorantium, because we are ignorant of the evidence that proves that he is lying. It would be circular if he said that, "I'm not lying, therefore I must be telling the truth" because it is either one or the other and if he says it isn't one, but the other, it essentially the same as saying "I'm telling the truth because I'm telling the truth." That's a circular argument.) Maprovonsha172 29 June 2005 21:50 (UTC)
What the 9/11 Commission states was that there was no "operational" connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, particularly in reference to the 9/11 attacks. This means nothing because there are plenty of other ways to have connections: logistical, personnel, financing, equipment, etc. The United States has connections to almost every intelligence service on the planet but only maintains operationals connections with two or three.
The 9/11 Commission also claims to have no idea where Al Qaeda gets it's funding, so a militant, America-hating, terrorist-supporting Arab dictator with billions in petrol profits should not be ruled out.
Let us also remember that the Commission only accepted testimony that was sourced, "archival" or "historical" and essentially in the sphere of public information. Anecdotal reporting, unsourced material, circumstantial evidence or theory was not accepted into the record.
And can we forget that in the 1998 indictment against Al Qaeda, the Clinton Administration stated that AQ and Saddam collaborated on "weapons systems"?
removed rant against "liberals"
Why is this article so slanted to the left? After reading it I'm left with the impression that the war on terror is a bad thing. I'd rather just get the facts without all the links to BBC, UN, and NBC. At least add something to balance your political views (i.e. Fox News, drudgereport.com, Etc.)
Protecting civilians from terrorists "is a bad thing"? Did you realize what you said? This article is the most biased article I've seen yet.
While we're at cleaning up this article... What do you think of creating a disambiguation page? IMHO this article is a case of primary topic disambiguation. I hear the phrase war on terror(ism) almost exclusively in the context of US-led military activities following Sept. 11. Actually I have never used this phrase in any other context. OK, there are historical, mostly regional, precedents, but few would call them war on terrorism. So when I look up war on terror(ism) in Wikipedia I expect to find something about the global war The US and selected friends against "terrorists" all over the world with keywords Sept 11, AUMF, Afghanistan, Feb 15, Iraq, axis of evil, Saudi-Arabia, you name it. On the other hand I'd also expect to find references to other uses of the phrase. If Bush's war on terror somehow builds on Reagan's war on terror, I expect to find the link explained in the article. If both presidents used the same phrase more or less independently, a link on War on Terrorism (disambiguation) would be fine. Same with the British in Palestine or Russians in Chechnya. Actually I'd expect links to some of these conflicts in the see also: section at the end of the article or the disambiguation page. Note that the phrase war on terrorism for non-military activities is rarely used outside the US. Even organizations like NATO and UN don't use the phrase war on terrorism for their actions to reduce terrorism in the world. So I'd say the article war on terrorism should refer to US-led military acitivities as authorized in the AUMF (9/18/2001). I cannot think of any other use of the phrase war on terrorism that matches the impact of this global war that has been going on for 2 1/2 years -- with no end in sight. -- 145.254.51.34 09:28, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The page has just been protected. Hopefully the anon will start discussing his/her changes on the talk page now. 172 04:45, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've noticed a slight trend towards semantic pickiness regarding the phrase "war on terror." Michael Moore has said "You can't declare war on a noun." [2] August 10 on the Daily Show, NY Times columnist Maureen Dowd mentioned a conservative colleague who thought the phrase was okay, despite it being a "war on a tactic" as she put it. The current version of this article says that the phrase "war on terror" is semantically illogical.
Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:25 (UTC)
Now, I don't see how it's any less valid to talk of a war on a tactic (or noun - would Moore rather we had war on verbs?) than of a war on "terrorism," which, as per the definitions in the terrorism article, can be a "tactic of violence" or a "pejorative characterisation of an enemy's attacks." So, does it make more or less sense to talk of "war on a perjorative characterisation" than "war on an intense state of fear"? Would it be okay to have war on any other "ism"s, for instance war on racism, Marxism, or feminism? I'm fairly sure we're stuck with both "war on terrorism" and "war on terror;" unless someone can provide a good reason why the latter is semantically illogical, I would be in favor of treating both phrases as equally valid in this article. That Moore and others criticize the latter usage to me is a variety of ad-hominem attack on the perceived semantic understanding of their opponents. -- Wapcaplet 20:57, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree; whether it is rendered as "war on terror" or "war on terrorism", it serves to disguise the reality of events. I think you may have missed the point of my post, which maybe I didn't make clear enough: that the phrase "war on terror" is just as valid, in a semantic sense, as the phrase "war on terrorism." Whether the former is a deviously crafted propaganda term or not has no bearing on its semantic validity. -- Wapcaplet 23:56, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Good points, but that also is unrelated to the topic of my post. Let me be absolutely clear. There are two phrases that the news media, politicians, etc. use to describe the nebulous ongoing efforts to stifle the activity of terrorism. Those two phrases are:
Some, as I have mentioned, prefer to use (2), citing reasons of grammatical correctness of some kind. This very article makes a statement that (1) is "semantically illogical" (first paragraph under "Recent Summary"). My position is that (1) is just as semantically logical as (2), and thus should be treated as such in the article. That is all. -- Wapcaplet 02:39, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The real problem with Michael Moore's statement that you can't declare war on a noun is that it is too general. You can't fight a war, or any sort of struggle, against anything but a noun. The real distinction must be made between common nouns and proper nouns. A "war on terrorism" or "war on terror", like a "war on crime" or "war on drugs", is likely to continue for a very long time because it may not have an identifiable end criterion consisting either of the defeat or surrender of one the principals or a negotiated settlement between principals. Such an open-ended "war" can be an argument for an indefinite restriction of civil liberties. The war in Afghanistan had a defined end criterion, the defeat of the Taliban (a proper noun). Typically (as noted above) a war is waged by one nation against another nation. The United States may be able to wage war against Al Qaede (a proper noun), but not against "radical Islamic terrorists" (a noun, but not a proper noun). Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:22 (UTC)
I happened upon the wiki article Reification, also called hypostatisation, which says: "Fallacious arguments based on reification may be committed when manipulations that are only possible on concrete things are said to be performable on an abstract concept." I think that may apply to "war on terror" or even a "war on terrorism?" or am I reaching here? -- Ben 06:42, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This isn't an article I want to get too involved in, but somebody may want to build this story into the article in some form. --[[User:Bodnotbod| bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 14:55, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
President admits war on terror cannot be won - The Guardian - August 31 - 2004
Bedarned if Google finds me any WP mention of the "Detroit terror cell" so I'll plunk it here: Justice Dep't discards convictions and terrorism charges against the Detroit group · Terrorism charges dismissed 142.177.170.39 00:04, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The expression "war on terror" or variants such as "war against terrorsim" are appropriate for the article title, because that is how people would look up the information.
But the phrase is at best less appropriate within the article.
Given that the expression is disputed, my suggestion is to either enclose it in quote marks, or better, to replace it with expressions such as any of the following: "campaign / clampdown / crackdown / effort / fight / struggle against terrorism"
Or perhaps "... against terrorists"
What do you think?
- Maurreen Skowran
James 00:40, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that President Bush, not the U.S. government "announced its intentions to begin a 'War on Terrorism', a protracted struggle against alleged terrorists and some of the states that are alleged to aid terrorists."
Note that the Congressional authorization for use of military force is limited to those involved with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Maurreen 07:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I put "war" references in quotes; made a bunch of tweaks, and changed U.S. to Bush "announced its intentions to begin a 'War on Terrorism', a protracted struggle ..." Maurreen 06:52, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Recently an anon added the following, though Jayjg reverted it soon afterwards:
While much of this is POV and mere opinion, I do think that maybe we should include his first sentence or something like it in the article: "'The War on Terror' and similar phrases do not include Israeli terrorism." It would be encyclopaedic, IMO, to note that while the United States and their President, George W. Bush call it a War on Terrorism, they do not include in this the terrorism committed by the state of Israel, and even somewhat endorse it due to the substantial U.S. financial support of Israel. Opinions? BLANKFAZE | (что??) 09:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree with that general idea. Can it be done without highlighting any organization that is excluded? Maurreen 05:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Usually, a war start when one country declare war and stop when involved coutries found an agreement or when one country win against one other.
But which will be the fact which will make people feel this war to be ended?
As american government says the war in Afghanistan ad the war in Iraq have been won (closed), does this mean the war on terrorism have been won? In the opposite case, does this mean United-States will declare war to another country, to keep the war alive? 80.125.107.170 00:09, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think in the eyes of the leaders and the people of the United States the war will not be "won" until America recieves Osama Bin Laden -or his remains- and the heads of those who run the Al-Quida terror network. The United States suffered a preverbial kick in the ass on 9/11, and will most likely not be satisfied until they see the person most responsible for the deaths of 2,000+ civillians put to death. Mind you this is just one man's opinion. TomStar81 02:59, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it's important to keep in mind that there are people who benefit in certain ways from an ongoing "war on terror". (such as politically and/or economically) If these interests retain a sufficient influence on government policy, it is unlikely that the "war on terror" will end, irrespective of the empirical quantity and severity of terrorism. Kevin Baas talk: new 05:01, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
Also it is important to note that all surveys show that terrorism has consistently increased since the "war on terrorism" began, so by measure of empricial "terrorism" events, at best it can be said that the "end" grows increasingly further away, so long as the current dynamic (including the strategy of the war and international policies) remains. Kevin Baas talk: new 05:07, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
I think this paragraph: Most recently, the war on Iraq has been tied to the "War on Terrorism" by the Bush administration. However, no evidence has been provided for such a connection.
Should be changed to: Most recently, the war on Iraq has been tied to the "War on Terrorism" by the Bush administration. However, no direct evidence has been provided for such a connection.
I think this (and perhaps an additional paragraph) should be done to acknowledge the likely complicity Saddam had for some terrorist groups. In particular for Ansar-al-Islam, and their usefulness in fighting Kurdish insurgents for Saddam.
Here is something I read from a person I was debating with:
Although I disagreed with his characterization of this being evidence of Saddam's support of international terrorism (assuming he was using them simply domestic matters), it does provide a bit of a middle ground in the debate. RoyBoy 17:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let's not forget the fact that Saddam was funding suicide bombings in Israel. If you state that Bush's motivation was only "Saddams support for terrorism", technically, Bush is correct. -- 66.82.9.77 04:08, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the parts about various countries (e.g. France, Canada) were taken out of the edits made approximately a week ago. France and Canada *did* join the war on terror, but they turned down the war in Iraq. Someone want to tell me what's so POV about that? TheProject 17:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, they defend Lebanon. They hold seats in the Lebanese Goverment. They own a TV Satellite station Al Manar that you can subscribe to in the USA (so much for the US Goverment claiming they are a terrorist group)
I would like to add that the phrase "War on Terror," as a response to 9/11 and in the literal sense of the word "terror", is a confirmation that the terrorists who attacked on 9/11 were successful in frightening the populace.
Additionally I think in that sense the phrase is applying a sort of "forced emotional conformity" to the event, that everyone experienced the same level of terror on that day (clearly untrue of course), as well as subsequently stretching that emotional reaction through the repeated use of the phrase.
Lastly, that a "War on Terror" is being fought with the presumption that the populace is not afraid, I believe this leads to denial of the fear experienced on 9/11 while, as I said above, it is still being reinforced.
This is something I've thought a lot about, but I'm rather a layman when it comes to semantics, psychology and propaganda, but I hope someone will at least point me in the right direction? I really think something like this should be added as I think the word "terror," which was as far as I know, not at all in the common lexicon as slang for "terrorism," is purposefully being used to reinforce fear and also as a semantic 'vessel' to hold all sorts of propaganda. I also think that this propaganda is making its way (or has already) into common usage in the media (commonly propaganda must be accepted by the elite first, not by your average joe), and I believe it has a negative impact.
This is along the same lines: we are not fighting "terrorists" or "Al-Qaida" even, but "The Terrorists." This is very similar to "The Communists," except at least "The Communists" had a country. Saying we are fighting "The Terrorists" is much like saying we are fighting "The Murderers" and how do you fight "The Murderers?" Who are they? Where are they? To me, they are anything the person in 'control' of the phrase wants, and at the same time they are the terrorists that attacked on 9/11.
I think this is very important, and would appreciate any comments. This is, so far at least, the best way I can explain it (though I have more analysis, and I'd be happy to add it, but it's all over the place since I don't have any education in the fields necessary for in-depth analysis.) -- Ben 21:18, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
may i please point out, that one persons "terrorsit acts" are another persons "defence against the enemy". this isn't a reference. if someone attacked your home, wouldn't you fight to keep it? and what right does any country have to "legally" declare a war on terrorism?
The phrase "war on terror" or variations are discussed in various places on this page. I'd like to suggest that any new discussion take place down here.
Whatever the "war on terror" is, to my knowledge it is incomparable to anything that has come before, in its vagueness, at least. It is amorphous.
If nothing else, wars in the standard sense of the word generally have a place for a clear beginning and ending.
This is incomparable to the Cold War in that the presidents during that time did not try to exert wartime powers. There was not the same lessening of checks and balances and civil liberties. The United States did not decide to hold people incommunicado indefinitely. Etc.
The president is not authorized by the Constitution to declare war. Congress is the only body so authorized, and it has not done so. The authorizations for use of military force have some limits. Maurreen 07:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the statement in the introduction that September 11 commission said that Saddam had no ties to terrorism is factually wrong. September 11 commission only said that Saddam had no direct connections with AlQuada and September 11 attack. -- Vlad1 01:08, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of whether you are on the right or the left, the phrase is technically an oxymoron because terror is an essential part of war. Mir 08:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand this:
If the Hezbollah is indeed the "largest political party in Lebanon", I don't understand why it should be underlined that it "seems poised to exploit a future vacuum as the Syrians depart": the normal democratic process would then grant them at least a significan power in the new official structure... I probably haven't understood everything, but in its present state, this part looks a bit odd to me. Rama 07:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added a line in the first paragraph that notes that there is no internationally accepted definition of either terrorism or terrorist. I feel it is important to state that imediatly. TomStar81 08:37, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Somebody just slapped an NPOV tag here but I don't see any mention of this in discussion. -- csloat 23:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All right, you want discussion, here you have it: The invasion of Iraq should not go on this page, as there never were any links whatsoever between Saddam Hussein's regime and any terrorist organizations. And believe me, I am being objective here, as I know about international law, and personally despised Saddam`s regime, almost as much as I despised the Taliban regime. The terrorists entered the country AFTER the invasion, as part as a resistance movement. The difference between the two regimes is that only the second one harboured terrorists. That being said, the subsequent occupation of Iraq could be considered to be part of the War on Terrorism, although it should be specified that the invasion caused Iraq to be a training ground for terrorists. Furthermore, the "axis of evil" countries not necessarily sponsor terrorism, as is the case of North Korea. It has dangerous nuclear ambitions, but that is not terrorism. So, I am putting the NPOV tag.
Copperchair 05:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the September 11th terrorist attacks served as justification for the invasion of Iraq, they were not the cause. Republicans had that invasion in mind since the 1998 crisis between the Clinton administration and the Iraqui government, as stated in the Project for the New American Century Copperchair 06:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
How is it linked with the war on terror? In your logic, if a country made people use drugs and then it fought them, it would be a "war on drugs". There were never links between Saddam's SECULAR regime and the EXTREMIST terrorists. Even al-Qaida considered Saddam to be an "apostate" for not having a theocratic regime like Iran or the Taliban. If you meant to say that the fight against the insurgents is part of the “war on terror”, then you should note that the US caused this people to take up arms against them. The Iraqi people never attacked US soil; the US attacked them. And because of that, they have right under the Geneva Conventions to form any resistance movements and to be granted POW status as they are legal combatants. Copperchair 06:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Not at all. It is imperialism, not "war on terror". 9/11 was only used to manipulate people's fear in order to have them support a war that is illegal according to international law (or minimum decency). That is mere rethoric. According to the UN Charter, no country has the right to impose a certain political regime on another. That's what the USSR did in the Cold War (and ironically was criticized by the US then). In any case, in view of what is being done in Iraq, then the US should be alonside North Korea, Iran and Iraq as rogue and terrorist state. On top of them, I would dare to say. Besides, Islam in its purest is incompatible with democracy. How would you feel if an Islamic invasion army imposed a theocracy in your country? You wouldn’t buy its ideology and you would be mad with them. And you would have every right to. Copperchair 06:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
And how does North Korea sponsor terrorism? There are no North-Korean terrorist organizations, nor are the North-Koreans wahhabi islamic extremists. They haven't committed a single terrorist act. If it is in the "axis of evil" because it has nuclear warfare and because it does not respect international treaties, including the ones regarding human rights, then the US is the most evil of all countries. It has nuclear weapons that could destroy the whole world several times, it does not respect treaties (see Nicaragua v. United States) and it doesn't respect human rights (see Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse). Copperchair 07:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding Pakistan, do you remember before it served to US interests, being known that it sponsored terrorism, it has nuclear weapons and even helped it establish the Taliban regime and was one of the only three countries to recognize it as Afghanistan’s legitimate regime, it was seen as a terrorist state? But now the nuclear weapons subject has been put aside just because it is vital to have their help in the war against the Taliban. Shouldn't the US, being completely objective, have included it in the "axis of evil"? Pakistan is, to this day, far more dangerous than Iraq. Copperchair 07:22, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I see no reasons given for addition of NPOV tages to two sections of the article. The lead reads in a neutral tone and gives factual information about the WOT -- what it is, how it started. The first paragraph seem very adequte and straightforward, temperate.
When you think you need to place an NPOV (or any) tag on the article, stop and think about discussing it first, discuss your concerns.
In a short period of time I have observed NPOV tags placed twice without any discussion whatsoever.
Bring something to the party! Don't just slap a notice on an article and skedaddle.
So let the tags remain but if there's no input, I think they should go and will remove (unless you get there before me and get rid of them) The article will expand -- capricious "hit and run" tagging doesn't help, but it seems to be something to observe. Calicocat 10:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Explain to me why statements that are pervasive in this article such as the one that claims that Investigations have been started through many branches of many governments, pursuing tens of thousands of tips. Thousands of people have been detained, arrested, or questioned. Many of those targeted by the Bush administration have been secretly detained, and have been denied access to an attorney. Among those secretly detained are U.S. citizens. has nothing linking it to the evidence to support it? Perhaps those at camp x-ray may fall into this commentary, but I have not heard of any secret detentions of U.S. citizens as a whole. The latter half of the passage seems to be reaching just a bit.-- MONGO 04:39, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph because it has been superceded by the official report that clearly confirmed the abuse at Bagram:
I've rewritten the opening to be more clear that this article is mostly about the current War on Terror as seen from the US. That's basically what was happening anyway in the opening with the long list of US-centric grievances. I'm not totally comfortable with this as the article does contain a bit of interesting historical stuff from other countries. The only way around this though is to do a total reworking of the whole piece to sublimate the stuff on the current US crusade into a much broader and balanced piece. -- Lee Hunter 03:37, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious about this statement "Supporters downplay civilian casualties by arguing that many who live near terrorist cells are likely supporting them materially..."
The assumption that people who live near terrorists have less right to security seems like an astonishingly callous and short-sighted way of thinking and it's not an opinion that I've ever heard anyone express. Is this actually what supports of the GWOT believe? Is there a source? -- Lee Hunter 23:42, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since this article is nothing more than a communal sock puppet for the liberal masses involved in this wikipedia project, I will no longer watch nor submit edits to it. In specific, Lee Hunter is determined to add his or her own opinion to the article, using specific sources which confirm what they wish to believe. Since the vast majority of wikipedia users are liberal america-bashers, (one only need hang out on #wikipedia for an hour or so to affirm this) I find it entirely pointless to continue to try to work on articles like this. Hopefully people who read articles like this will find them so completely biased as to understand they cannot possibly be correct. I will continue to go through other articles which have been hopelessly "liberalized" and attempt to correct them there. Please, enjoy your little soapbox here, and be aware that not everybody is as stupid as you make them out to be. Avriette 00:12, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
For my next act of communal sock puppetry for the liberal masses, as Avriette so nicely put it, I was thinking of doing a serious restructuring of this article. I'm posting it here in advance, in case anyone has any comments or objections.
The section called "Military/diplomatic campaigns" either needs to be renamed or chunks of the content need to be removed because much of what's there is neither a military nor diplomatic "campaign".
Comments? Concerns? Suggestions? -- Lee Hunter 01:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no need for this article! Don't any of you remember? Bush said it was over!! The aircraft carrier, Bush with another one of his speeches, and that infamous banner, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
You mean this carrier and this banner. And a word to the wise abou this war: it will probably never end. TomStar81 4 July 2005 05:29 (UTC)
"History is like a waltz... a never-ending dance in three-four time. The three steps of war, peace, and revolution. An endless waltz."- Mariemaia Khushrenada
I was just wondering, at what point does an insurgency become a civil-war? How long must an insurgency last and how many must die? Is there any definition, or is the wording entirely up to the media and goverment to decide? -HMR 10 July 2005
Read this excerpt from Brian Leiter's blog (Leiter Reports):
Okay, since I assume I'm among grown-ups, couldn't we agree that there is no such thing as the war on terror? It is self-defeating anyway, as we must employ terror to root out terror. This excerpt should have a place in the article. Any objections? Maprovonsha172 29 June 2005 22:21 (UTC)
I changed it back with a better wording, Lee. I hope you can accept the sentence in its comprimised form - if not, let's discuss it on the talk page before we go ahead and erase anyone's edit. Maprovonsha172 30 June 2005 03:53 (UTC)
The contents of this article don't match the title, except in a POV way.
I suggest:
The key problem with the current title is that "war on terrorism" is an allegation that the reason for the war is to eliminate terrorism. This is a commonly disputed point of view. What isn't disputed is that the US led a series of military actions "in response" to the terrorists attacks on New York and Washington. The reasons for the military actions are disputed.
I suppose people argue that the term "War on Terrorism" is the most familiar name for this series of military actions. I don't believe that's true. In most international media the term is most often used with irony or derision, as in "Bush's war on terror". It is usually seen as a phrase of propoganda. So it's inappropriate as an article title unless it's an article about that propoganda.
We should find a NPOV title. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it, so I thought I'd drop my 10 cents in at the end here.
Ben Arnold 9 July 2005 00:56 (UTC)
The phrases "War on terror" and "War on Terrorism" are used often enough that they deserve an entry in this encyclopedia. However, I would prefer a discussion of the controversies surrounding the phrase and a redirection to an article with an NPOV title. Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:08 (UTC)
I'm a little bit confused--under "Opposition and Criticism" there are points from those opposing the war and those supporting the war. To begin with, why is the section title "Opposition and Criticism" when there is a "Support" section too under it? And second, the "Support" section is much noticeably shorter, and three of its four points are counter-attacked while the points in the "Oppose" section are left alone. Come on, guys, this isn't because there aren't any valid "Support" reasons. :) I know it's rarer than a snowball in the desert to find a Wikipedia editor who isn't liberal, but surely there's one out there, somewhere...? (Nothing wrong with liberals now, but there's certainly not a balance 'round here...)
(And to stave off the "do-it-yourself" calls, I don't "Support" so I dont know any "Support" reasons...) 172.130.125.18 19:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Out of all the many definitions for war that are out there, why is this one used? Since the definition of war is widely disputed, why include any definition at all. Either that, or include more definitions that reflect the true problem of defining war.
No, its not me. I always leave my signature. Copperchair 20:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why there's an image of Bin Laden in this article. If anything, it would seem more appropriate to have an image of President Bush who coined the phrase? Calicocat 07:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
GWB is said to have coined the phrase, but I doubt it! I'd love to know more about how these terms get invented, whether they are subject to analysis, discussion etc. AndrewHodgson 17:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
If anyone's been following the news, the New York Times has reported that the Bush administration is retooling the "War on Terror" slogan into the "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism" IHT link, but carried in other papers. I have heard there's a consensus amongst the left and right blogs that this is a surrender of sorts, or at least the Bush administration grasping at the low hanging fruit. Should this be mentioned it the article? -- YoungFreud 01:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I edited the use of the term 'backronym'; fancinating as they are, the sentence is discussing acronyms =) Gamemaker 17:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to back up YoungFreud by confirming the term 'War Against Terror' is no longer used by the Bush administration. The new official term is the 'Global Struggle Against Extremism', which Donald Rumsfeld has used several times during press conferences already.
This is definitely an acknowledgement by Bush and Co that this isn't a war the U.S. can win, rather a tolerable 'struggle' which will be ongoing. Remember also that U.S. Army recruitment rates are falling and the word 'extremism' is more appealing to potential, young service men and women.
Isn't "Global War On Terror" a sidestepping way of saying World War III ?
I have placed an external link to a satirical article I have written on the topic of the renaming of the war on terror. Someone deleted it as an "attack;" however it is completely on topic and of course the link is in the "external links" section. I have thus reinstated it.
Is there a community policy on such links? Seems like if the link is relevant it should be allowed, even (or especially) if the author of the external content places the link there. Wfried 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Certainly. But it seems the community should consider the quality and relevance of the external links, not whether or not they are submitted by the author of the external content. Wfried 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Why was this article redirected to a non-standardly named article? Terror and terrorism are not proper nouns, no need to cap them. There's been no official declaration of war, so the name "war on terror" or "global war on terror," (isn't now "the struggle against something or other"), is not in any way a formal war being waged by any nation against any group or nation. It seems like useing the upper case "Terrorism" is some of POV push. Calicocat 19:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
What a mess... Someone please correct this. There is no way in the world this should be "War on Terrorism" with a capital "T" it's just wrong and will only cuase confusion. The only useful redirect would be from "global war on terror" "global war on terrorism" to this article. The article was actually, I think, "moved" here... I'll have to check on it later, but if someone else can correct this, please do it. "War on Terror" is non-standard and confusing. Calicocat 18:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It should bee capitalized, since it is a proper name. Copperchair 21:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The Page should not have been redirected, it should have been moved. You lost all the edit history by doing so. -- Noitall 22:42, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
The section on contemporary US mentions the 2001 anthrax attacks, and concludes that they originated in a US military installation - is there evidence for this? Neither the anthrax attack article nor the article on the alleged attack source make any mention of this conclusion. Gamemaker 17:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.
This archive page covers approximately the dates between January 6, 2005 and October 1, 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Foo/Archive04. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Lee Hunter 03:47, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
As a relative newby to Wikipedia I'm a bit nervous about modifying a page as contentious as this one, but as a Brit I find the reference to "London subway bombings" sounds a bit odd: it's NEVER referred to as the 'subway', it's called the Underground. Eliot
Doesn't Graft have a point in the September 11th discussion page about the CIA being involved in acts of terrorism?
QUOTE:
Slim, I noticed you described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Well, according to you, most military action by the US army is terrorist in nature. If we go by what you say (which I agree with), then we have to label most US military action accordingly.
You can't have your cake and eat it - either killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians is terrorism or it isn't. (Posted by 82.35.107.44)
Hi Anon, I'm not sure where I've described what constitutes a terrorist attack. Can you be more specific? Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean this one: "United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. [1] ( http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html) "Academic Consensus Definition":
"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988). The U.S. government isn't a clandestine or semi-clandestine individual, group or state actor; and it doesn't choose as direct targets of violence people who are not its main targets. Slim 03:25, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Not quite true - the CIA is a clandestine state actor, and has been engaged in actions targetting people who are not its main targets, e.g. Nicaraguan peasants, et alia. Graft 05:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I see what you mean, Graft. Also, as SNIyer1 has re-inserted the "effects on children" section, I've edited it to include the links, which were not added back in. Slim 17:15, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
END QUOTE
If so, shouldn't it be addressed in the opposition section of the main War on Terror page?
Well, if there are no complaints, I'm going ahead and changing it.
(Whoever wrote this should read up on logic a bit. It centers around the fallacy that since no evidence proves it -not- to be true, it can and must be true. This is an example of a logical circular argument at its finest. "Since you cannot prove I am lying, I must be telling the truth.")
(I think you got your phallusies mixed up there buddy, it's not circular reasoning, it is an argumentum ad ignorantium, because we are ignorant of the evidence that proves that he is lying. It would be circular if he said that, "I'm not lying, therefore I must be telling the truth" because it is either one or the other and if he says it isn't one, but the other, it essentially the same as saying "I'm telling the truth because I'm telling the truth." That's a circular argument.) Maprovonsha172 29 June 2005 21:50 (UTC)
What the 9/11 Commission states was that there was no "operational" connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, particularly in reference to the 9/11 attacks. This means nothing because there are plenty of other ways to have connections: logistical, personnel, financing, equipment, etc. The United States has connections to almost every intelligence service on the planet but only maintains operationals connections with two or three.
The 9/11 Commission also claims to have no idea where Al Qaeda gets it's funding, so a militant, America-hating, terrorist-supporting Arab dictator with billions in petrol profits should not be ruled out.
Let us also remember that the Commission only accepted testimony that was sourced, "archival" or "historical" and essentially in the sphere of public information. Anecdotal reporting, unsourced material, circumstantial evidence or theory was not accepted into the record.
And can we forget that in the 1998 indictment against Al Qaeda, the Clinton Administration stated that AQ and Saddam collaborated on "weapons systems"?
removed rant against "liberals"
Why is this article so slanted to the left? After reading it I'm left with the impression that the war on terror is a bad thing. I'd rather just get the facts without all the links to BBC, UN, and NBC. At least add something to balance your political views (i.e. Fox News, drudgereport.com, Etc.)
Protecting civilians from terrorists "is a bad thing"? Did you realize what you said? This article is the most biased article I've seen yet.
While we're at cleaning up this article... What do you think of creating a disambiguation page? IMHO this article is a case of primary topic disambiguation. I hear the phrase war on terror(ism) almost exclusively in the context of US-led military activities following Sept. 11. Actually I have never used this phrase in any other context. OK, there are historical, mostly regional, precedents, but few would call them war on terrorism. So when I look up war on terror(ism) in Wikipedia I expect to find something about the global war The US and selected friends against "terrorists" all over the world with keywords Sept 11, AUMF, Afghanistan, Feb 15, Iraq, axis of evil, Saudi-Arabia, you name it. On the other hand I'd also expect to find references to other uses of the phrase. If Bush's war on terror somehow builds on Reagan's war on terror, I expect to find the link explained in the article. If both presidents used the same phrase more or less independently, a link on War on Terrorism (disambiguation) would be fine. Same with the British in Palestine or Russians in Chechnya. Actually I'd expect links to some of these conflicts in the see also: section at the end of the article or the disambiguation page. Note that the phrase war on terrorism for non-military activities is rarely used outside the US. Even organizations like NATO and UN don't use the phrase war on terrorism for their actions to reduce terrorism in the world. So I'd say the article war on terrorism should refer to US-led military acitivities as authorized in the AUMF (9/18/2001). I cannot think of any other use of the phrase war on terrorism that matches the impact of this global war that has been going on for 2 1/2 years -- with no end in sight. -- 145.254.51.34 09:28, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The page has just been protected. Hopefully the anon will start discussing his/her changes on the talk page now. 172 04:45, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I've noticed a slight trend towards semantic pickiness regarding the phrase "war on terror." Michael Moore has said "You can't declare war on a noun." [2] August 10 on the Daily Show, NY Times columnist Maureen Dowd mentioned a conservative colleague who thought the phrase was okay, despite it being a "war on a tactic" as she put it. The current version of this article says that the phrase "war on terror" is semantically illogical.
Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:25 (UTC)
Now, I don't see how it's any less valid to talk of a war on a tactic (or noun - would Moore rather we had war on verbs?) than of a war on "terrorism," which, as per the definitions in the terrorism article, can be a "tactic of violence" or a "pejorative characterisation of an enemy's attacks." So, does it make more or less sense to talk of "war on a perjorative characterisation" than "war on an intense state of fear"? Would it be okay to have war on any other "ism"s, for instance war on racism, Marxism, or feminism? I'm fairly sure we're stuck with both "war on terrorism" and "war on terror;" unless someone can provide a good reason why the latter is semantically illogical, I would be in favor of treating both phrases as equally valid in this article. That Moore and others criticize the latter usage to me is a variety of ad-hominem attack on the perceived semantic understanding of their opponents. -- Wapcaplet 20:57, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I agree; whether it is rendered as "war on terror" or "war on terrorism", it serves to disguise the reality of events. I think you may have missed the point of my post, which maybe I didn't make clear enough: that the phrase "war on terror" is just as valid, in a semantic sense, as the phrase "war on terrorism." Whether the former is a deviously crafted propaganda term or not has no bearing on its semantic validity. -- Wapcaplet 23:56, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Good points, but that also is unrelated to the topic of my post. Let me be absolutely clear. There are two phrases that the news media, politicians, etc. use to describe the nebulous ongoing efforts to stifle the activity of terrorism. Those two phrases are:
Some, as I have mentioned, prefer to use (2), citing reasons of grammatical correctness of some kind. This very article makes a statement that (1) is "semantically illogical" (first paragraph under "Recent Summary"). My position is that (1) is just as semantically logical as (2), and thus should be treated as such in the article. That is all. -- Wapcaplet 02:39, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The real problem with Michael Moore's statement that you can't declare war on a noun is that it is too general. You can't fight a war, or any sort of struggle, against anything but a noun. The real distinction must be made between common nouns and proper nouns. A "war on terrorism" or "war on terror", like a "war on crime" or "war on drugs", is likely to continue for a very long time because it may not have an identifiable end criterion consisting either of the defeat or surrender of one the principals or a negotiated settlement between principals. Such an open-ended "war" can be an argument for an indefinite restriction of civil liberties. The war in Afghanistan had a defined end criterion, the defeat of the Taliban (a proper noun). Typically (as noted above) a war is waged by one nation against another nation. The United States may be able to wage war against Al Qaede (a proper noun), but not against "radical Islamic terrorists" (a noun, but not a proper noun). Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:22 (UTC)
I happened upon the wiki article Reification, also called hypostatisation, which says: "Fallacious arguments based on reification may be committed when manipulations that are only possible on concrete things are said to be performable on an abstract concept." I think that may apply to "war on terror" or even a "war on terrorism?" or am I reaching here? -- Ben 06:42, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This isn't an article I want to get too involved in, but somebody may want to build this story into the article in some form. --[[User:Bodnotbod| bodnotbod » .....TALKQuietly)]] 14:55, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)
President admits war on terror cannot be won - The Guardian - August 31 - 2004
Bedarned if Google finds me any WP mention of the "Detroit terror cell" so I'll plunk it here: Justice Dep't discards convictions and terrorism charges against the Detroit group · Terrorism charges dismissed 142.177.170.39 00:04, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The expression "war on terror" or variants such as "war against terrorsim" are appropriate for the article title, because that is how people would look up the information.
But the phrase is at best less appropriate within the article.
Given that the expression is disputed, my suggestion is to either enclose it in quote marks, or better, to replace it with expressions such as any of the following: "campaign / clampdown / crackdown / effort / fight / struggle against terrorism"
Or perhaps "... against terrorists"
What do you think?
- Maurreen Skowran
James 00:40, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that President Bush, not the U.S. government "announced its intentions to begin a 'War on Terrorism', a protracted struggle against alleged terrorists and some of the states that are alleged to aid terrorists."
Note that the Congressional authorization for use of military force is limited to those involved with the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Maurreen 07:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I put "war" references in quotes; made a bunch of tweaks, and changed U.S. to Bush "announced its intentions to begin a 'War on Terrorism', a protracted struggle ..." Maurreen 06:52, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Recently an anon added the following, though Jayjg reverted it soon afterwards:
While much of this is POV and mere opinion, I do think that maybe we should include his first sentence or something like it in the article: "'The War on Terror' and similar phrases do not include Israeli terrorism." It would be encyclopaedic, IMO, to note that while the United States and their President, George W. Bush call it a War on Terrorism, they do not include in this the terrorism committed by the state of Israel, and even somewhat endorse it due to the substantial U.S. financial support of Israel. Opinions? BLANKFAZE | (что??) 09:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree with that general idea. Can it be done without highlighting any organization that is excluded? Maurreen 05:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Usually, a war start when one country declare war and stop when involved coutries found an agreement or when one country win against one other.
But which will be the fact which will make people feel this war to be ended?
As american government says the war in Afghanistan ad the war in Iraq have been won (closed), does this mean the war on terrorism have been won? In the opposite case, does this mean United-States will declare war to another country, to keep the war alive? 80.125.107.170 00:09, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think in the eyes of the leaders and the people of the United States the war will not be "won" until America recieves Osama Bin Laden -or his remains- and the heads of those who run the Al-Quida terror network. The United States suffered a preverbial kick in the ass on 9/11, and will most likely not be satisfied until they see the person most responsible for the deaths of 2,000+ civillians put to death. Mind you this is just one man's opinion. TomStar81 02:59, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it's important to keep in mind that there are people who benefit in certain ways from an ongoing "war on terror". (such as politically and/or economically) If these interests retain a sufficient influence on government policy, it is unlikely that the "war on terror" will end, irrespective of the empirical quantity and severity of terrorism. Kevin Baas talk: new 05:01, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
Also it is important to note that all surveys show that terrorism has consistently increased since the "war on terrorism" began, so by measure of empricial "terrorism" events, at best it can be said that the "end" grows increasingly further away, so long as the current dynamic (including the strategy of the war and international policies) remains. Kevin Baas talk: new 05:07, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
I think this paragraph: Most recently, the war on Iraq has been tied to the "War on Terrorism" by the Bush administration. However, no evidence has been provided for such a connection.
Should be changed to: Most recently, the war on Iraq has been tied to the "War on Terrorism" by the Bush administration. However, no direct evidence has been provided for such a connection.
I think this (and perhaps an additional paragraph) should be done to acknowledge the likely complicity Saddam had for some terrorist groups. In particular for Ansar-al-Islam, and their usefulness in fighting Kurdish insurgents for Saddam.
Here is something I read from a person I was debating with:
Although I disagreed with his characterization of this being evidence of Saddam's support of international terrorism (assuming he was using them simply domestic matters), it does provide a bit of a middle ground in the debate. RoyBoy 17:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Let's not forget the fact that Saddam was funding suicide bombings in Israel. If you state that Bush's motivation was only "Saddams support for terrorism", technically, Bush is correct. -- 66.82.9.77 04:08, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the parts about various countries (e.g. France, Canada) were taken out of the edits made approximately a week ago. France and Canada *did* join the war on terror, but they turned down the war in Iraq. Someone want to tell me what's so POV about that? TheProject 17:12, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, they defend Lebanon. They hold seats in the Lebanese Goverment. They own a TV Satellite station Al Manar that you can subscribe to in the USA (so much for the US Goverment claiming they are a terrorist group)
I would like to add that the phrase "War on Terror," as a response to 9/11 and in the literal sense of the word "terror", is a confirmation that the terrorists who attacked on 9/11 were successful in frightening the populace.
Additionally I think in that sense the phrase is applying a sort of "forced emotional conformity" to the event, that everyone experienced the same level of terror on that day (clearly untrue of course), as well as subsequently stretching that emotional reaction through the repeated use of the phrase.
Lastly, that a "War on Terror" is being fought with the presumption that the populace is not afraid, I believe this leads to denial of the fear experienced on 9/11 while, as I said above, it is still being reinforced.
This is something I've thought a lot about, but I'm rather a layman when it comes to semantics, psychology and propaganda, but I hope someone will at least point me in the right direction? I really think something like this should be added as I think the word "terror," which was as far as I know, not at all in the common lexicon as slang for "terrorism," is purposefully being used to reinforce fear and also as a semantic 'vessel' to hold all sorts of propaganda. I also think that this propaganda is making its way (or has already) into common usage in the media (commonly propaganda must be accepted by the elite first, not by your average joe), and I believe it has a negative impact.
This is along the same lines: we are not fighting "terrorists" or "Al-Qaida" even, but "The Terrorists." This is very similar to "The Communists," except at least "The Communists" had a country. Saying we are fighting "The Terrorists" is much like saying we are fighting "The Murderers" and how do you fight "The Murderers?" Who are they? Where are they? To me, they are anything the person in 'control' of the phrase wants, and at the same time they are the terrorists that attacked on 9/11.
I think this is very important, and would appreciate any comments. This is, so far at least, the best way I can explain it (though I have more analysis, and I'd be happy to add it, but it's all over the place since I don't have any education in the fields necessary for in-depth analysis.) -- Ben 21:18, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
may i please point out, that one persons "terrorsit acts" are another persons "defence against the enemy". this isn't a reference. if someone attacked your home, wouldn't you fight to keep it? and what right does any country have to "legally" declare a war on terrorism?
The phrase "war on terror" or variations are discussed in various places on this page. I'd like to suggest that any new discussion take place down here.
Whatever the "war on terror" is, to my knowledge it is incomparable to anything that has come before, in its vagueness, at least. It is amorphous.
If nothing else, wars in the standard sense of the word generally have a place for a clear beginning and ending.
This is incomparable to the Cold War in that the presidents during that time did not try to exert wartime powers. There was not the same lessening of checks and balances and civil liberties. The United States did not decide to hold people incommunicado indefinitely. Etc.
The president is not authorized by the Constitution to declare war. Congress is the only body so authorized, and it has not done so. The authorizations for use of military force have some limits. Maurreen 07:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I believe that the statement in the introduction that September 11 commission said that Saddam had no ties to terrorism is factually wrong. September 11 commission only said that Saddam had no direct connections with AlQuada and September 11 attack. -- Vlad1 01:08, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Regardless of whether you are on the right or the left, the phrase is technically an oxymoron because terror is an essential part of war. Mir 08:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I am not sure I understand this:
If the Hezbollah is indeed the "largest political party in Lebanon", I don't understand why it should be underlined that it "seems poised to exploit a future vacuum as the Syrians depart": the normal democratic process would then grant them at least a significan power in the new official structure... I probably haven't understood everything, but in its present state, this part looks a bit odd to me. Rama 07:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I added a line in the first paragraph that notes that there is no internationally accepted definition of either terrorism or terrorist. I feel it is important to state that imediatly. TomStar81 08:37, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Somebody just slapped an NPOV tag here but I don't see any mention of this in discussion. -- csloat 23:34, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
All right, you want discussion, here you have it: The invasion of Iraq should not go on this page, as there never were any links whatsoever between Saddam Hussein's regime and any terrorist organizations. And believe me, I am being objective here, as I know about international law, and personally despised Saddam`s regime, almost as much as I despised the Taliban regime. The terrorists entered the country AFTER the invasion, as part as a resistance movement. The difference between the two regimes is that only the second one harboured terrorists. That being said, the subsequent occupation of Iraq could be considered to be part of the War on Terrorism, although it should be specified that the invasion caused Iraq to be a training ground for terrorists. Furthermore, the "axis of evil" countries not necessarily sponsor terrorism, as is the case of North Korea. It has dangerous nuclear ambitions, but that is not terrorism. So, I am putting the NPOV tag.
Copperchair 05:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind that the September 11th terrorist attacks served as justification for the invasion of Iraq, they were not the cause. Republicans had that invasion in mind since the 1998 crisis between the Clinton administration and the Iraqui government, as stated in the Project for the New American Century Copperchair 06:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
How is it linked with the war on terror? In your logic, if a country made people use drugs and then it fought them, it would be a "war on drugs". There were never links between Saddam's SECULAR regime and the EXTREMIST terrorists. Even al-Qaida considered Saddam to be an "apostate" for not having a theocratic regime like Iran or the Taliban. If you meant to say that the fight against the insurgents is part of the “war on terror”, then you should note that the US caused this people to take up arms against them. The Iraqi people never attacked US soil; the US attacked them. And because of that, they have right under the Geneva Conventions to form any resistance movements and to be granted POW status as they are legal combatants. Copperchair 06:38, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Not at all. It is imperialism, not "war on terror". 9/11 was only used to manipulate people's fear in order to have them support a war that is illegal according to international law (or minimum decency). That is mere rethoric. According to the UN Charter, no country has the right to impose a certain political regime on another. That's what the USSR did in the Cold War (and ironically was criticized by the US then). In any case, in view of what is being done in Iraq, then the US should be alonside North Korea, Iran and Iraq as rogue and terrorist state. On top of them, I would dare to say. Besides, Islam in its purest is incompatible with democracy. How would you feel if an Islamic invasion army imposed a theocracy in your country? You wouldn’t buy its ideology and you would be mad with them. And you would have every right to. Copperchair 06:28, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
And how does North Korea sponsor terrorism? There are no North-Korean terrorist organizations, nor are the North-Koreans wahhabi islamic extremists. They haven't committed a single terrorist act. If it is in the "axis of evil" because it has nuclear warfare and because it does not respect international treaties, including the ones regarding human rights, then the US is the most evil of all countries. It has nuclear weapons that could destroy the whole world several times, it does not respect treaties (see Nicaragua v. United States) and it doesn't respect human rights (see Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse). Copperchair 07:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding Pakistan, do you remember before it served to US interests, being known that it sponsored terrorism, it has nuclear weapons and even helped it establish the Taliban regime and was one of the only three countries to recognize it as Afghanistan’s legitimate regime, it was seen as a terrorist state? But now the nuclear weapons subject has been put aside just because it is vital to have their help in the war against the Taliban. Shouldn't the US, being completely objective, have included it in the "axis of evil"? Pakistan is, to this day, far more dangerous than Iraq. Copperchair 07:22, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I see no reasons given for addition of NPOV tages to two sections of the article. The lead reads in a neutral tone and gives factual information about the WOT -- what it is, how it started. The first paragraph seem very adequte and straightforward, temperate.
When you think you need to place an NPOV (or any) tag on the article, stop and think about discussing it first, discuss your concerns.
In a short period of time I have observed NPOV tags placed twice without any discussion whatsoever.
Bring something to the party! Don't just slap a notice on an article and skedaddle.
So let the tags remain but if there's no input, I think they should go and will remove (unless you get there before me and get rid of them) The article will expand -- capricious "hit and run" tagging doesn't help, but it seems to be something to observe. Calicocat 10:22, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Explain to me why statements that are pervasive in this article such as the one that claims that Investigations have been started through many branches of many governments, pursuing tens of thousands of tips. Thousands of people have been detained, arrested, or questioned. Many of those targeted by the Bush administration have been secretly detained, and have been denied access to an attorney. Among those secretly detained are U.S. citizens. has nothing linking it to the evidence to support it? Perhaps those at camp x-ray may fall into this commentary, but I have not heard of any secret detentions of U.S. citizens as a whole. The latter half of the passage seems to be reaching just a bit.-- MONGO 04:39, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph because it has been superceded by the official report that clearly confirmed the abuse at Bagram:
I've rewritten the opening to be more clear that this article is mostly about the current War on Terror as seen from the US. That's basically what was happening anyway in the opening with the long list of US-centric grievances. I'm not totally comfortable with this as the article does contain a bit of interesting historical stuff from other countries. The only way around this though is to do a total reworking of the whole piece to sublimate the stuff on the current US crusade into a much broader and balanced piece. -- Lee Hunter 03:37, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm curious about this statement "Supporters downplay civilian casualties by arguing that many who live near terrorist cells are likely supporting them materially..."
The assumption that people who live near terrorists have less right to security seems like an astonishingly callous and short-sighted way of thinking and it's not an opinion that I've ever heard anyone express. Is this actually what supports of the GWOT believe? Is there a source? -- Lee Hunter 23:42, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since this article is nothing more than a communal sock puppet for the liberal masses involved in this wikipedia project, I will no longer watch nor submit edits to it. In specific, Lee Hunter is determined to add his or her own opinion to the article, using specific sources which confirm what they wish to believe. Since the vast majority of wikipedia users are liberal america-bashers, (one only need hang out on #wikipedia for an hour or so to affirm this) I find it entirely pointless to continue to try to work on articles like this. Hopefully people who read articles like this will find them so completely biased as to understand they cannot possibly be correct. I will continue to go through other articles which have been hopelessly "liberalized" and attempt to correct them there. Please, enjoy your little soapbox here, and be aware that not everybody is as stupid as you make them out to be. Avriette 00:12, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
For my next act of communal sock puppetry for the liberal masses, as Avriette so nicely put it, I was thinking of doing a serious restructuring of this article. I'm posting it here in advance, in case anyone has any comments or objections.
The section called "Military/diplomatic campaigns" either needs to be renamed or chunks of the content need to be removed because much of what's there is neither a military nor diplomatic "campaign".
Comments? Concerns? Suggestions? -- Lee Hunter 01:53, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There is no need for this article! Don't any of you remember? Bush said it was over!! The aircraft carrier, Bush with another one of his speeches, and that infamous banner, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
You mean this carrier and this banner. And a word to the wise abou this war: it will probably never end. TomStar81 4 July 2005 05:29 (UTC)
"History is like a waltz... a never-ending dance in three-four time. The three steps of war, peace, and revolution. An endless waltz."- Mariemaia Khushrenada
I was just wondering, at what point does an insurgency become a civil-war? How long must an insurgency last and how many must die? Is there any definition, or is the wording entirely up to the media and goverment to decide? -HMR 10 July 2005
Read this excerpt from Brian Leiter's blog (Leiter Reports):
Okay, since I assume I'm among grown-ups, couldn't we agree that there is no such thing as the war on terror? It is self-defeating anyway, as we must employ terror to root out terror. This excerpt should have a place in the article. Any objections? Maprovonsha172 29 June 2005 22:21 (UTC)
I changed it back with a better wording, Lee. I hope you can accept the sentence in its comprimised form - if not, let's discuss it on the talk page before we go ahead and erase anyone's edit. Maprovonsha172 30 June 2005 03:53 (UTC)
The contents of this article don't match the title, except in a POV way.
I suggest:
The key problem with the current title is that "war on terrorism" is an allegation that the reason for the war is to eliminate terrorism. This is a commonly disputed point of view. What isn't disputed is that the US led a series of military actions "in response" to the terrorists attacks on New York and Washington. The reasons for the military actions are disputed.
I suppose people argue that the term "War on Terrorism" is the most familiar name for this series of military actions. I don't believe that's true. In most international media the term is most often used with irony or derision, as in "Bush's war on terror". It is usually seen as a phrase of propoganda. So it's inappropriate as an article title unless it's an article about that propoganda.
We should find a NPOV title. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it, so I thought I'd drop my 10 cents in at the end here.
Ben Arnold 9 July 2005 00:56 (UTC)
The phrases "War on terror" and "War on Terrorism" are used often enough that they deserve an entry in this encyclopedia. However, I would prefer a discussion of the controversies surrounding the phrase and a redirection to an article with an NPOV title. Robert McClenon 9 July 2005 19:08 (UTC)
I'm a little bit confused--under "Opposition and Criticism" there are points from those opposing the war and those supporting the war. To begin with, why is the section title "Opposition and Criticism" when there is a "Support" section too under it? And second, the "Support" section is much noticeably shorter, and three of its four points are counter-attacked while the points in the "Oppose" section are left alone. Come on, guys, this isn't because there aren't any valid "Support" reasons. :) I know it's rarer than a snowball in the desert to find a Wikipedia editor who isn't liberal, but surely there's one out there, somewhere...? (Nothing wrong with liberals now, but there's certainly not a balance 'round here...)
(And to stave off the "do-it-yourself" calls, I don't "Support" so I dont know any "Support" reasons...) 172.130.125.18 19:18, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Out of all the many definitions for war that are out there, why is this one used? Since the definition of war is widely disputed, why include any definition at all. Either that, or include more definitions that reflect the true problem of defining war.
No, its not me. I always leave my signature. Copperchair 20:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand why there's an image of Bin Laden in this article. If anything, it would seem more appropriate to have an image of President Bush who coined the phrase? Calicocat 07:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
GWB is said to have coined the phrase, but I doubt it! I'd love to know more about how these terms get invented, whether they are subject to analysis, discussion etc. AndrewHodgson 17:53, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
If anyone's been following the news, the New York Times has reported that the Bush administration is retooling the "War on Terror" slogan into the "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism" IHT link, but carried in other papers. I have heard there's a consensus amongst the left and right blogs that this is a surrender of sorts, or at least the Bush administration grasping at the low hanging fruit. Should this be mentioned it the article? -- YoungFreud 01:04, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I edited the use of the term 'backronym'; fancinating as they are, the sentence is discussing acronyms =) Gamemaker 17:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to back up YoungFreud by confirming the term 'War Against Terror' is no longer used by the Bush administration. The new official term is the 'Global Struggle Against Extremism', which Donald Rumsfeld has used several times during press conferences already.
This is definitely an acknowledgement by Bush and Co that this isn't a war the U.S. can win, rather a tolerable 'struggle' which will be ongoing. Remember also that U.S. Army recruitment rates are falling and the word 'extremism' is more appealing to potential, young service men and women.
Isn't "Global War On Terror" a sidestepping way of saying World War III ?
I have placed an external link to a satirical article I have written on the topic of the renaming of the war on terror. Someone deleted it as an "attack;" however it is completely on topic and of course the link is in the "external links" section. I have thus reinstated it.
Is there a community policy on such links? Seems like if the link is relevant it should be allowed, even (or especially) if the author of the external content places the link there. Wfried 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Certainly. But it seems the community should consider the quality and relevance of the external links, not whether or not they are submitted by the author of the external content. Wfried 09:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Why was this article redirected to a non-standardly named article? Terror and terrorism are not proper nouns, no need to cap them. There's been no official declaration of war, so the name "war on terror" or "global war on terror," (isn't now "the struggle against something or other"), is not in any way a formal war being waged by any nation against any group or nation. It seems like useing the upper case "Terrorism" is some of POV push. Calicocat 19:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
What a mess... Someone please correct this. There is no way in the world this should be "War on Terrorism" with a capital "T" it's just wrong and will only cuase confusion. The only useful redirect would be from "global war on terror" "global war on terrorism" to this article. The article was actually, I think, "moved" here... I'll have to check on it later, but if someone else can correct this, please do it. "War on Terror" is non-standard and confusing. Calicocat 18:04, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It should bee capitalized, since it is a proper name. Copperchair 21:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
The Page should not have been redirected, it should have been moved. You lost all the edit history by doing so. -- Noitall 22:42, August 3, 2005 (UTC)
The section on contemporary US mentions the 2001 anthrax attacks, and concludes that they originated in a US military installation - is there evidence for this? Neither the anthrax attack article nor the article on the alleged attack source make any mention of this conclusion. Gamemaker 17:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)