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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne at the Reference desk. |
Removed here for now:
This story (usually told about "one million Jews") is probably apocryphal. Supposedly this was said to Joel Brand, with no other witnesses, but there is an article of Yehuda Bauer where he shows that Brand changed the story over time and once even told it of someone other than Moyne. There's also the question of whether this story was known at all before the Moyne assassination. -- Zero 15:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Can we have a source, please, for "Brand's associations both with Eichmann and the Lehi raise some doubts about his credibility"? Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 12:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I expanded on the allegations of his anti-zionism and brought the citation from the book of Bell. I asked for tags on the other side allegations. Amoruso 02:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we source that this guy belongs in this category? I removed it until we get sources calling/listing him as belonging. Thanks -- Tom 18:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Crazy Zionists saying "antisemites" deserve to be murdered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:8B46:9D00:14DA:E424:A78D:72D7 ( talk) 05:40, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
(moved back to right side) Hi Amoruso, funny you mention the killer/murderer reference. To answer your question, YES, we do need him to be labeled as such. Look at Baruch Goldstein Should he be labeled a murder victim? What I am looking for is reliable sources that LABEL/CALL this guy an anti-semite, period. Not what he said, not what he did, not what is obvious to everybody. I don't know if this guy is a scumbag or not. If he said the things he has supposidely said, sure, scumbag. I'm not here to figure that out. I'm here to make sure that people added to lists or categories belong there based on reliable sources saying so and not original research. I am not saying he shouldn't be added, just that it should be sourced...-- Tom 19:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This sort of labelling is pathetic. Actually he was no worse than the average British politician of the time, take that however you like. -- Zero talk 00:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Ben Hecht is on the borderline as far as reliable sources go. He writes very much from the Revisionist point of view. -- Zero talk 16:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Those who consider Moyne to be an anti-Semite should remember that in 1940 he was instrumental in arranging for Churchill's government to imprison his former daughter-in-law (née Diana Mitford), who had remarried to Sir Oswald Mosley. When in Cairo as resident minister he had to deal with the imam of Jersusalem who supported Hitler at a distance. It is fairer to say that he was pig-in-the-middle between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Moderate Jews thought highly of him. He was also threatened by Arabs. Has anyone considered how, in practical terms, 1 million Jews were going to be moved during a war across the front lines? The trucks offer was a wind-up on the part of the Germans, and was not sanctioned by their leadership. Those who describe him as 'anti-semitic' cannot have read his book 'Atlantic Circle' (1932) with its sensitive descriptions of many cultures. Likewise his report on the West Indies (1938-39) was sensitive compared to most. PDG
If Moyne was an anti-semite, and was in charge of the whole Middle East when he was killed, why did he assent to the increase of the Notrim, a police force that developed into the Haganah? It seems that the embarrassment of his assassination can only be dealt with by some people calling him anti-semitic; which Weizmann himself never did. Anti-zionist is quite different from anti-semitic. If he suggested that Madagascar was the ideal Jewish home, it may have been crazy and unworkable but that does not make him an anti-semite; the heading here is 'anti-semitic people'. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notrim
I see a lot of 'discussion' above that is based on hearsay. 'alleged role...obscure negotiations' is not good enough for me. My grandfather died at Auschwitz in late 1944 after 5 years at Terezin, and I am interested in Moyne but I don't hold a grudge. Let's look at the facts. Hearsay that Lehi wanted to believe, plus their need to do something spectacular, caused Moyne's death. He was a figurehead. Let's not be naive, there was no real trucks deal and no offer to free anyone. Himmler tried an angle as he knew the war was lost. Hitler would never have agreed to it.
I have introduced some new points above that are not on Moyne's pages. I also mind when people use other peoples' miseries in the Holocaust to try to score points without examining the whole picture. Moyne supported Churchill's anti-Nazi position before the 1939 war. Moyne didn't take part in the Holocaust and didn't kill anyone except Germans in the First World War. My grandfather who died in 1944 was a native Berliner who won an iron cross in that same war. In Egypt when Moyne started there, the main threat was from Rommel. He seems more interesting than the caricature English colonial ruler. We would love that raids on the camps on Poland could have been made by the allies, but it didn't happen. Are we saying that all anti-semites deserve to die? I have Hasidic friends who are anti-Zionist. Or that Chaim Weizmann was not a good judge of humanity? In the 1940s he was a hero to most Jews; fact. CW may be 'embarrassing' to you, fine, you have a view, this is a page about Moyne and not CW, but many of us think CW was a good man. Enough.
Cool it you two. If the main source is J. Bowyer Bell, he wrote 6 books on the IRA, who would never have liked the idea of an Irishman like Mr. Guinness being a part of the British Establishment. Yes, the same IRA who were armed by the USSR and Libya in the 1970-80s and appreciated Arafat and Castro. They finally disarmed in the last year or so. Small quote from their 2003 obit: 'Bowyer Bell's work on Ireland is head and shoulders above other writers on the conflict here. His scholarly work stands out, especially when compared to the shelves of Irish bookstores filled with the tawdry ramblings of informers, disgruntled British agents and journalistic rush jobs.' Source: http://republican-news.org/archive/2003/August28/28bowy.html wikiman
it now looks like a tribute to Moyne the martyr, even though his personal responsiblity in the fate of the hungarian jews and other european refugees is fully documented. this was the main reason for the assassination. Amoruso 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a serious error to charge Moyne with blocking the "Jews for Trucks" scheme. In fact there is no cause to discuss that proposal in this article except to introduce the alleged "million jews" remark. Moyne did not have the authority to agree or disagree to Eichmann's scheme. The only thing he could do was to send reports to London, which he did repeatedly. -- Zero talk 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Moyne did not suggest in the House of Lords that the Jews should be sent to Madagascar. I have his whole speech right here. Actually he proposed Transjordan, Syria and Lebanon. -- Zero talk 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I let the rest of you fight over the quotes and who is a reliable historian, ect. I am just trying to clean up the intro. Lehi has its own entry so it doesn't seem necessary to define and explain their actions. Also removed long and interesting life fluff. Anyways...-- Tom 21:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I put in the 'blood for trucks' section this referenced item.
Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer [by Brand] was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis."
What is objectionable about this? Who removed it and why? Lots of attention given to Brand and Moyne 'did he say it or not' - all good stuff - but you need to have another view of the situation. Thinking about it, they had a one month window to save the last Hungarian Jews, if they got onto it straight away, and shipping them perhaps to the frontline in Italy might have helped some. But obviously the nazis weren't waiting around, and had already killed most of the unfortunates. Do we need two articles, 'Moyne's first 62 years before Cairo' and 'Moyne's last two years in Cairo'? Wikiman 22:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
this all should be added:
Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer [by Brand] was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis." [1]
Those weeks proved to be crucial. Between mid-May and early July, about 437,000 Hungarian Jews boarded the "resettlement trains" that carried them to the Auschwitz death camps, where most were immediately gassed. [2] The first transport of Hungarian Jews to the Auschwitz death camp was on April 29,1944 (Yehuda Bauer ,Freikauf von Juden). Mass transports of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz began on May 14, 1944. The last mass transport of 14,491 Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz was on July 9, 1944 where they were gassed upon arrival (Franciszek Piper, Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz).
New York Times, May 21, 1964. [shortly before Brand's death]
Allied Rift Called Aim of '44 Nazi Ransom Plan
FRANKFURT, Germany, May 20 - Joel Brand, whom the Nazis used as an envoy in their unsuccessful plan to trade the lives of a million Jews for 10,000 trucks, said today that the plan was actually aimed at splitting the Soviet-Western Alliance. Mr. Brand, a former Budapest resident and now an Israeli citizen, gave a detailed account of the origin and failure of the plan at the trial here of Hermann Krumey and Otto Hunsche, two of Adolf Eichmann's closest collaborators in the extermination of Hungarian Jews, in 1944. He testified "that though the deal was suggested by Eichmann" it must have originated in the mind of Himmler as one of his desperate attempts at driving a wedge between the Allies." ... "I made a terrible mistake in passing this on to the British," Mr. Brand said. "It is now clear to me that Himmler sought to sow suspicion among the Allies as a preparation for his much desired Nazi-Western coalition against Moscow," he said.
You see why I suggested 2 pages? If mandated Palestine had been empty in the 1920s I don't think the British would have objected in the least bit to any number of Jewish immigrants, and setting up a state, but there were some people living there already and there had been some riots etc. by 1939. The wartime policy was designed to stop further killings in mandated Palestine, and was unpopular with both the more extreme Arabs and Jews. It may not have been flexible or imaginative, but it was designed to preserve the lives of all or most Jews and Arabs living there.
Clearly by 1944 Jews-in-Palestine and Jews-in-Axis-countries had a unique bond with all other Jews. But from Cairo's point of view, only the Jews-in-Palestine were their subjects (horrible word, but that was the word) and responsibility, and they wanted to avoid provoking the Arabs. These 'subjects' had to be protected, as it were, from themselves. A parent-child relationship that we can say was silly, but typical of all empires. 'Mandated' meant impermanent. Iraq had been turned over to a friendly king; Palestine would be turned over when a solution acceptable to most Jews and Arabs had been worked out. You've gathered by now that my POV is anti-empire and Moyne was very much pro-empire; but that was usual for his background and time.
At least the extra detail I've put in can allow Israeli and Jewish-interest researchers to understand more about Lord M, as up to now he might as well have been a wooden gatepost. When I said (somewhere above) that London had sent out one of the best guys for the job, of course I meant 'best' in Churchill's mind; in light of their 20-year friendship, which became very personal from 1934. When Britain linked its pound to gold again in 1925, Churchill was Chancellor and Moyne was his Secretary at the Treasury. They had been political enemies in 1907-1921. I know that this earlier stuff is of no interest to Holocaust studies, but it is to the country that these men came from (and which wikipedia came from), and so I ask from a practical aspect, with no disrespect to any of your views: what about 2 pages, linked of course but separate? I don't want to post Moyne's views on Turkey in 1913, or about the Irish situation in 1916-21, or his comment on Indonesia in the 1930s, or his view of Australians at Gallipoli, if someone with a 1940s focus is going to edit the whole lot out. Wikiman 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm about to post the early political stuff and am done. Nothing unusual except that he said in 1918 “Since the days of Mahomet no prophet has been listened to with more superstitious respect than has President Wilson” - which would be odd if he were an Arabist? It seems he was pro-Ataturk in the 1920s, and by 1922 the Turks and Arabs had split. He went from Beirut to (Trans)Jordan with Churchill in 1934, but to classical Petra, not to Amman. Wikiman 18:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
We have this sentence, which I will assume is an accurate report of what Bell writes:
Of course Bell may be completely correct that "Gurion, a former Irgunist" made these claims, but why is it noteworthy that some non-famous person from an organization that was not involved in the assassination is able to get the dates all wrong? -- McKay 02:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso, please explain how the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries had the power to deport people from Palestine. Alternatively, you can provide a source that explains it. All you gave so far is a report that some former Irgun member claimed it. That's not good enough. The internal records of the British government relating to the Atlantic/Patria affair have been examined at length by several historians who published their findings in easily-accessible places. Did they confirm your claim? -- Zero talk 13:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The background to this is that Lehi did not kill Moyne just for his personal actions. He was killed as a representative of the British government. That's why Lehi cited events like Patria, which Moyne had nothing to do with personally, amongst their reasons. The distinction has been confused. Even Gerold Frank, who later wrote the book "The Deed" about the assassination, made the mistake of writing (first isssue of Commentary magazine in 1945) that Moyne was Colonial Secretary when the Patria was sunk; in fact the Colonial Secretary then was George Lloyd, 1st Baron Lloyd. We should try to use good modern sources and get the facts right. Erroneous claims from older sources are only of interest if the claims themselves were part of the story. -- Zero talk 13:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
In fact, this claim that "Bell writes that, according to Gurion, a former Irgunist..." is illustrative of the real problem here. In fact, no such thing appears in Bell's book at all. Amoruso just copied this from somewhere that has an editing mistake and falsely presented it as something he had verified himself. -- Zero talk 02:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
what on earth are you talking about ? Amoruso 10:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The connection is obvious. The same question is raised "Why was Brandt been locked away while Jews were dying"... it's the same connection of allies not helping the Jews in their catastrophe. Amoruso 12:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not delete sourced material again. Use talk if you wish to make drastic changes again. Thank you. Amoruso 15:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the claim that the assassins had support in Egypt: "Until now Arabic commentators have been silent. But now telegrams from Arabic organizations flood the court. They protest that the defense of these two boys in this Cairo courtroom amounts to a sponsorship of the Zionist case, and that it is intolerable that Cairo, the center of pan-Islam and the heart of the Arab league, should become a sounding board for Zionism." (Gerold Frank, The Moyne Case. Commentary, vol 1, p71). Maybe they had supporters as well, but we don't have a good source for that and we can't just give one side of it. It's clear that we don't actually have good evidence either way for this. -- Zero talk 02:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs a list of people who were killed first and then judged... 86.42.203.104 17:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Where exactly is this place? Amoruso 17:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
On what evidence was Ira Hirschmann, one of the most effective aid workers of the war, dismissed as "a radical right-wing Zionist"? None is provided, although it is likely to have been added as a sort automatic "first name" to the word epithet "Zionist".
Without support, I have removed it. Scott Adler 07:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I am adding the word "Jewish" to discern the fact that Lehi was a Jewish Zionist organization. Since there are also non-Jewish Zionist organizations, I think the clarity is needed.
Marcadams99 15:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC) Marcus, Aug. 16th, 2007
Brand never expected to evacuate a "million Jews" to the British in 1944, so it follows that Moyne (if it was Moyne) could not have said: "...what can I do with a million Jews?".
Brand's (enormous) problem was that he knew that he had to start with a lower amount, and hope that after the first exodus the British would take more. Also, Eichmann (on whom the whole deal rested) had said specifically that no refugees should go to Palestine. This doesn't come across in the article. It's worth examining the relevant part of the Q & A from the Eichmann trial:
(Q= the court, A = Joel Brand):
Q. Yesterday you explained that you did not want to refer to the large figure of one hundred thousand Jews in the presence of English officers.
A. I assume - I forget - that the reason was - yes, I was afraid of the English. In Budapest we had decided to say as little as possible to the English, not to give them any information, but to the Americans, and I knew what their position was, the White Paper, the certificates every month - I was afraid, I wanted to say as little as possible.
Q. Eichmann's proposal was not to send these Jews to Palestine, but to a neutral country, and he said explicitly to you "not to Palestine," did he not?
A. Yes, that was one of the dilemmas.
Q. I am not asking about the dilemma. Why were you afraid to reveal the proposal to the English? After all, it had nothing to do with the White Paper.
A. The Zionist organization to which I belonged had only one interest - emigration to Palestine; the Germans were interested in extermination. The world was interested in not letting the Jews in. I was stuck in the middle. I turned and twisted, in order not to step on either side's corns.
Q. Mr. Brand, if you were not afraid to reveal to Mr. Sharett, then Shertok, in the presence of English officers, the proposal to release a million Jews, why were you afraid to reveal the detail that, if a positive reply were given, they would start with one hundred thousand?
A. I am convinced that I said that the Germans would take the first step and release Jews. Today I have already said once that in the first months, and to this day...
Q. Mr. Brand, it seems to me that that is not an answer to the question.
A. Your Honour, I must reply. I bargained with myself, as I said today: They will give five thousand, they will give ten thousand, a hundred and twenty-thousand, they will give a hundred thousand; I bargained with myself.
Anyone interested in the rest of the Q & A should look at and around: [4] 86.42.222.44 09:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've created an article on this ship at SS Dieppe (1905). There is plenty said about Rosaura in this article but the sources are offline and I don't have them. Assistance in expanding the article about the ship from these sources is welcome. Mjroots ( talk) 09:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Zero has re-inserted the weasel-words "amplified by his assassins Lehi" and a lengthy apologia from one author (without volunteering the source). It is not debatable that Moyne made these remarks. If one wants to make excuses for his remarks, it should be a part of a balanced discussion, drawing on a number of sources - not cherry-picking from one source, not available to us. I have asked that he show a copy of the source, but he has ignored my request and chosen to edit war instead.
For the record, his recent contributions show a continuing pattern of deleting any information that reflects negatively on the Palestinians, including impeccable sources such as Benny Morris, and amplifying anything that reflects negatively on the Zionists. Pilusi3 ( talk) 22:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
The Portuguese Wikipedia article for Walter Guinness is at pt:Walter Guiness. Should this be moved to pt:Walter Guinness (with two n's?) Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 01:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
This campaign medal which Moyne received for his Boer War services never entitled recipients to be called "QSAM" as a postnominal abbreviation. I will therefore delete the letters used as postnominals in this article's infobox. Cloptonson ( talk) 21:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
We appear to see nothing of his interest in Jewish and Palestine matters until the section headed Blood For Trucks Proposal, about an affair of early 1944, yet Moyne was publicly expressing interest in them before then, notably his 1942 speech on Jews in the British Army which appears in the middle of the narrative about his murderers' trial. I suggest the material be looked at to see if there are details that could be moved to earlier in the page than they appear now. Cloptonson ( talk) 20:58, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me for intruding as I'm a great-grandson of Walter. The problem with the WW2 info is that he is notable from one aspect of Zionist history; but he was also notable from other perspectives.
Wikipedia has a clare policy to avoid using the word "terrorist". Ad editor has suggested that we violate this policy, because "that is what they were called at the tome". I wonder of this same editor thinks we could edit all articles about turn-of-the-century african Americans, and describe them a N****s, since that;s what they were called at the time. SInce the answer to that is an obvious no, the same should be done here.
Epson Salts (
talk) 14:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
It is very odd to write that the group were "suddenly told not to move". By whom, and why? It would make more sense to write that the terrorists emerged from hiding (where?) when the vehicle arrived, and (who?) presented weapons and told the passengers not to move, or something of that sort. Royalcourtier ( talk) 06:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@ VwM.Mwv:@ Mean as custard: Thank you for kind reminder of WP:3RR which I was going to remind you of, but as you have deliberately crossed it I have to assume you knew what you were doing. I also asked you to look at the talk page which you either have (and ignored) or have not bothered to, (for what reason I cannot fathom). Anyway to assist the link is here. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia, which as editors we are trying to produce a platform of knowledge, presented in a factual way. As you will see from the link, the group called themselves terrorists, as did and do many others. I await your reply with interest. Edmund Patrick – confer 10:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Edmund Patrick: No, I hadn't seen that link until now. Anyway, it too is irrelevant for the same reason as your repeated claim that they "referred to themselves as terrorists"; that's simply not how the sentence is phrased. If you wish to write about the nature of the individual assassins, you may do so, but the sources at the Lehi (militant group) page refer to the group as "paramilitary", not "terrorist". VwM.Mwv ( talk) 11:30, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: Now it's even weirder. So it's a "terror organization" according to the highest executive, yet it's "state supported"? And supported by what state? Israel was not proclaimed until 1948. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:00, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: Okay, I'll use the sources from the Lehi (militant group) article if that's really necessary. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:14, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
To editor VwM.Mwv: You are not allowed to edit here, see your talk page. To editor RTG: The Lehi was not state-supported and not really a forerunner of the IDF. It is true that some units of the Lehi were disbanded and incorporated into the IDF, but they formed a minute fraction of it. As for "terrorist", we generally avoid the word but in this case we shouldn't ignore the fact that they called themselves terrorists. Nor should we ignore that an Israeli court judged them to be a terrorist group after they killed Bernadotte in 1948. Zero talk 09:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Okay, what about "self-described terrorists from the Jewish paramilitary group Lehi"? I still haven't seen any evidence that the group was terrorist in nature, either by external or self-description at the time of this assassination. VwM.Mwv ( talk)
@
Zero0000,
RTG, and
Mean as custard: According to the
Lehi page: Lehi [...] was a Zionist paramilitary organization founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern in Mandatory Palestine. Its avowed aim was to evict the British authorities from Palestine by resort to force, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state, a "new totalitarian Hebrew republic".
All that seems perfectly reasonable to me except the last part; totalitarianism is an immoral & pathetic ideology (so is any ideology advocating the
initiation of force, for that matter). I personally consider Lord Moyne a legitimate target because he represented a regime which was actively initiating force against the Jewish community of Palestine. Anyway, my main point is, we can't call the group "terrorist" without any evidence. If the
WP:reliable sources (RS) on the Lehi page refer to the group as "paramilitary" (which they do), then so must this page. If anyone wants to include RS that the individual assassins referred to themselves as "terrorists", then I have no objections.
VwM.Mwv (
talk) 13:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: I like you. You're an interesting person. And I'm sure we could go on all night about history, culture, morality, and personal stories (etc). But you still haven't refuted my main point. Sure, all terrorist groups are paramilitaries, but not all paramilitaries are terrorist groups. Again, this particular lede sentence we're discussing is about the group, not the individual assassins. Since the Lehi page describes the group as "paramilitary", why should it be any different here? VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@
RTG: Well, the sources used at the
Lehi page describing it as "paramilitary" are not primary. They are from the Washington Post and Oxford Dictionaries. Btw, neither is the source currently used at this page (Etzel is synonymous with
Irgun, not Lehi).
Terrorism is defined on Wikipedia as the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a religious or political aim.
Do you have any evidence that their primary motivation for the assassination was to "create fear"? Moyne, I presume, may have done some very good things. However, that does not excuse the fact that he represented a regime which immorally initiated force against Jews (both residents and migrants), and illegally prevented Jews from immigrating to Palestine in violation of the
1922 League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
VwM.Mwv (
talk) 19:51, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
My dictionary says that "paramilitary" means "organized like a military force". It may be possible to apply this to Lehi in its final years, when it took part in some operations of a "military" nature, such as the Deir Yassin massacre, but at the time of the Moyne assassination it was a tiny underground group which carried out politically-motivated assassinations of British personnel and Jewish "traitors" (more of the latter, incidentally). It was definitely not a paramilitary organization then. As to what to call it, "underground" would be true and acceptable, but I think "terrorist" is also true and acceptable. What else would we call a private underground group today which specialises in killing government officials? When Moyne was killed, all the mainstream Jewish leaders called it terrorism. There are tons of modern reliable secondary sources that do too. I can give examples of both of these claims. Zero talk 02:23, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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I'd like to addn this with a source; he was accepted onto the SWC staff in October 1918 based on "knowledge of French and the Eatsern Theatre besides staff experience". PatrickGuinness ( talk) 13:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
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I have uploaded an image on wikimedia of Walter Guinness that is out of copyright, please can someone add it: Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne.png PhotoBooth1111 ( talk) 12:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Much of this article currently reads like an apologetic obituary rather than an objective summary of Lord Moyne's life. Most telling is the sub-section entitled "Views", where Lord Moyne's virulently antisemitic convictions are systematically downplayed and glossed over. In order to do so, it relies on a single source (Wassertstein 1979 & 1980, cited 8 times in only 7 lines of text) and selective quotation of Moyne's June 9, 1942 speech at the House of Lords. Above the last paragraph, his views on settlement appear, yet when it comes to the antisemitic language in his speeches we are told that he made another speech in the House of Lords where he claimed that the Arabs were a "purer" race than the Jews... However this is from the exact same speech that is being quoted, just before the quoted part in fact he said the following:
"The tragedy of the Palestinian question is, as was said by the Royal Commission, that it is a conflict between two rights. When Jerusalem was destroyed and its site ploughed up in the year 135 A.D., the Jews had occupied the country for about 1,300 years. Since the Mahomedan invasion of 632 the Arabs have occupied Palestine for practically the same period. To these Arabs the Jews are not only alien in culture but also in blood. It is very often loosely said that Jews are Semites, but anthropologists tell us that, pure as they have kept their culture, the Jewish race has been much mixed with Gentiles since the beginning of the Diaspora. During the Babylonian captivity they acquired a strong Hittite admixture, and it is obvious that the Armenoid features which are still found among the Sephardim have been bred out of the Ashkenazim by an admixture of Slav blood.
The Zionist movement has its main spring among those Jews of Poland and Eastern Europe. Their leaders demand that an already overcrowded Palestine should be trebled in its population by the admixture of another three million Jews immediately after the war. Now it is not a matter of putting a quart into a pint pot, it is a matter of putting exactly three pints into a pint pot."
The statement speaks for itself, these are Moyne's own words after all. Why not simply quote this instead of relying on dubious excuses such as "Moyne was an amateur anthropologist"? Likewise, on the issue of settlement, the following part of the speech (immediately after the part that is quoted in the article):
"We ought, therefore, to look at once in all directions to find means to re-establish these martyrs to Nazi oppression in a new life. The Zionists look only to Palestine. On May 25, at the annual dinner of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee, Dr. Weizmann again declared that Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and Stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is to canalize all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all schemes to re-settle these victims elsewhere—in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar."
Here we learn that in 1942, the deadliest year of the Holocaust (of which the British government was fully aware), Lord Moyne wanted to resettle the Jewish victims not in Palestine but in Germany, Poland or Madagascar. One wouldn't even suspect that from reading the current article.
Judging from the article's current content, it is painfully obvious that the editors are much more interested in polishing Lord Moyne's reputation than in producing a factually-accurate article. I will let everyone guess as to why this is the case, though in my view the reasons are equally obvious. Regardless, the article (and the sub-section I spoke of in particular) at this point in time is nothing more than a heavily-slanted obituary relying on a tiny minority of historians 2A01:CB1C:34B:0:59EC:9142:42AB:D5D1 ( talk) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
"where he claimed that the Arabs were a 'purer' race than the Jews"— no such statement or implication appears in Moyne's speech, which I just read again very carefully. The fact that you misread it illustrates why Wikipedia prefers to have secondary sources do the interpretation. There are four people and one group cited against Moyne on this point and only one person for Moyne, so if the presentation is unbalanced it is in the opposite direction to what you claim. The details of Moyne's statement about the ancestry of Jews do not match current scientific understanding, but the general point that Jews have mixed origin is what modern genetics says too ( this figure showing two different methods of analysis is a useful summary). The idea that questioning racial purity is antisemitic is appalling anyway. Zero talk 03:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Here's some "selective quoting" from another debate, in 1944, following the killing of Moyne. The speaker is Lord Samuel, who was Jewish. He was also the first of the High Commissioners for Palestine and Transjordan, and as such the first Jewish ruler of Israel for some 2,000 years. The link is [ Here]. He was a supporter of Zionism, but did not describe Moyne as anti-Semitic. I think this debate can be closed.
Those murderers have not yet been identified, but your Lordships will understand the distress that I feel, having given five years of my life, as High Commissioner of Palestine, to the building of a new State there, and to aiding a movement inspired by an intense idealism and hating every kind of violence, priding itself on its humanitarian spirit, to think that it may be possible that these murderers have come from the Jewish Palestinian population. If it should prove to be so, that population, I feel certain, will see that it is vital to extirpate from their midst this hateful group of criminals.
Lord Moyne touched life on many sides. He had interests in science and in art; as a soldier in the last war he was three times mentioned in despatches, and won the Distinguished Service Order and bar. In politics he served for very many years in the House of Commons and in various high offices in the Government. He was active in the service of this House, and attained the highest position in its gift, that of Leader, in which he won a universal popularity. Such is the man whom we mourn, and such is the memory which his family amid their sorrow may always cherish. 78.16.30.140 ( talk) 13:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Edits contained swapped dates, swapped Kings and odd order of listings. I rolled back so may have removed a correct edit somewhere along the line but after a view of Kashmiri Munda talk page I felt in the first instance it was the best thing to do. Edmund Patrick – confer 09:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
I added an official statement that I found in 1944 Haaretz. Here is the Hebrew text in case someone wants to improve the translation. Feel free to correct it if it doesn't match the image.
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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne at the Reference desk. |
Removed here for now:
This story (usually told about "one million Jews") is probably apocryphal. Supposedly this was said to Joel Brand, with no other witnesses, but there is an article of Yehuda Bauer where he shows that Brand changed the story over time and once even told it of someone other than Moyne. There's also the question of whether this story was known at all before the Moyne assassination. -- Zero 15:23, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Can we have a source, please, for "Brand's associations both with Eichmann and the Lehi raise some doubts about his credibility"? Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 12:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
I expanded on the allegations of his anti-zionism and brought the citation from the book of Bell. I asked for tags on the other side allegations. Amoruso 02:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we source that this guy belongs in this category? I removed it until we get sources calling/listing him as belonging. Thanks -- Tom 18:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Crazy Zionists saying "antisemites" deserve to be murdered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:8B46:9D00:14DA:E424:A78D:72D7 ( talk) 05:40, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
(moved back to right side) Hi Amoruso, funny you mention the killer/murderer reference. To answer your question, YES, we do need him to be labeled as such. Look at Baruch Goldstein Should he be labeled a murder victim? What I am looking for is reliable sources that LABEL/CALL this guy an anti-semite, period. Not what he said, not what he did, not what is obvious to everybody. I don't know if this guy is a scumbag or not. If he said the things he has supposidely said, sure, scumbag. I'm not here to figure that out. I'm here to make sure that people added to lists or categories belong there based on reliable sources saying so and not original research. I am not saying he shouldn't be added, just that it should be sourced...-- Tom 19:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
This sort of labelling is pathetic. Actually he was no worse than the average British politician of the time, take that however you like. -- Zero talk 00:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Ben Hecht is on the borderline as far as reliable sources go. He writes very much from the Revisionist point of view. -- Zero talk 16:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Those who consider Moyne to be an anti-Semite should remember that in 1940 he was instrumental in arranging for Churchill's government to imprison his former daughter-in-law (née Diana Mitford), who had remarried to Sir Oswald Mosley. When in Cairo as resident minister he had to deal with the imam of Jersusalem who supported Hitler at a distance. It is fairer to say that he was pig-in-the-middle between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Moderate Jews thought highly of him. He was also threatened by Arabs. Has anyone considered how, in practical terms, 1 million Jews were going to be moved during a war across the front lines? The trucks offer was a wind-up on the part of the Germans, and was not sanctioned by their leadership. Those who describe him as 'anti-semitic' cannot have read his book 'Atlantic Circle' (1932) with its sensitive descriptions of many cultures. Likewise his report on the West Indies (1938-39) was sensitive compared to most. PDG
If Moyne was an anti-semite, and was in charge of the whole Middle East when he was killed, why did he assent to the increase of the Notrim, a police force that developed into the Haganah? It seems that the embarrassment of his assassination can only be dealt with by some people calling him anti-semitic; which Weizmann himself never did. Anti-zionist is quite different from anti-semitic. If he suggested that Madagascar was the ideal Jewish home, it may have been crazy and unworkable but that does not make him an anti-semite; the heading here is 'anti-semitic people'. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notrim
I see a lot of 'discussion' above that is based on hearsay. 'alleged role...obscure negotiations' is not good enough for me. My grandfather died at Auschwitz in late 1944 after 5 years at Terezin, and I am interested in Moyne but I don't hold a grudge. Let's look at the facts. Hearsay that Lehi wanted to believe, plus their need to do something spectacular, caused Moyne's death. He was a figurehead. Let's not be naive, there was no real trucks deal and no offer to free anyone. Himmler tried an angle as he knew the war was lost. Hitler would never have agreed to it.
I have introduced some new points above that are not on Moyne's pages. I also mind when people use other peoples' miseries in the Holocaust to try to score points without examining the whole picture. Moyne supported Churchill's anti-Nazi position before the 1939 war. Moyne didn't take part in the Holocaust and didn't kill anyone except Germans in the First World War. My grandfather who died in 1944 was a native Berliner who won an iron cross in that same war. In Egypt when Moyne started there, the main threat was from Rommel. He seems more interesting than the caricature English colonial ruler. We would love that raids on the camps on Poland could have been made by the allies, but it didn't happen. Are we saying that all anti-semites deserve to die? I have Hasidic friends who are anti-Zionist. Or that Chaim Weizmann was not a good judge of humanity? In the 1940s he was a hero to most Jews; fact. CW may be 'embarrassing' to you, fine, you have a view, this is a page about Moyne and not CW, but many of us think CW was a good man. Enough.
Cool it you two. If the main source is J. Bowyer Bell, he wrote 6 books on the IRA, who would never have liked the idea of an Irishman like Mr. Guinness being a part of the British Establishment. Yes, the same IRA who were armed by the USSR and Libya in the 1970-80s and appreciated Arafat and Castro. They finally disarmed in the last year or so. Small quote from their 2003 obit: 'Bowyer Bell's work on Ireland is head and shoulders above other writers on the conflict here. His scholarly work stands out, especially when compared to the shelves of Irish bookstores filled with the tawdry ramblings of informers, disgruntled British agents and journalistic rush jobs.' Source: http://republican-news.org/archive/2003/August28/28bowy.html wikiman
it now looks like a tribute to Moyne the martyr, even though his personal responsiblity in the fate of the hungarian jews and other european refugees is fully documented. this was the main reason for the assassination. Amoruso 20:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a serious error to charge Moyne with blocking the "Jews for Trucks" scheme. In fact there is no cause to discuss that proposal in this article except to introduce the alleged "million jews" remark. Moyne did not have the authority to agree or disagree to Eichmann's scheme. The only thing he could do was to send reports to London, which he did repeatedly. -- Zero talk 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Moyne did not suggest in the House of Lords that the Jews should be sent to Madagascar. I have his whole speech right here. Actually he proposed Transjordan, Syria and Lebanon. -- Zero talk 10:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I let the rest of you fight over the quotes and who is a reliable historian, ect. I am just trying to clean up the intro. Lehi has its own entry so it doesn't seem necessary to define and explain their actions. Also removed long and interesting life fluff. Anyways...-- Tom 21:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I put in the 'blood for trucks' section this referenced item.
Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer [by Brand] was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis."
What is objectionable about this? Who removed it and why? Lots of attention given to Brand and Moyne 'did he say it or not' - all good stuff - but you need to have another view of the situation. Thinking about it, they had a one month window to save the last Hungarian Jews, if they got onto it straight away, and shipping them perhaps to the frontline in Italy might have helped some. But obviously the nazis weren't waiting around, and had already killed most of the unfortunates. Do we need two articles, 'Moyne's first 62 years before Cairo' and 'Moyne's last two years in Cairo'? Wikiman 22:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
this all should be added:
Derek Wilson has weighed up the matter from the British side:"They concluded that the offer [by Brand] was genuine and reflected the desperation of Hitler's high command. They recommended that it could be safely ignored on the grounds that all the concentration camps would be liberated within weeks and that, in any case, there could be no negotiations with the Nazis." [1]
Those weeks proved to be crucial. Between mid-May and early July, about 437,000 Hungarian Jews boarded the "resettlement trains" that carried them to the Auschwitz death camps, where most were immediately gassed. [2] The first transport of Hungarian Jews to the Auschwitz death camp was on April 29,1944 (Yehuda Bauer ,Freikauf von Juden). Mass transports of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz began on May 14, 1944. The last mass transport of 14,491 Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz was on July 9, 1944 where they were gassed upon arrival (Franciszek Piper, Die Zahl der Opfer von Auschwitz).
New York Times, May 21, 1964. [shortly before Brand's death]
Allied Rift Called Aim of '44 Nazi Ransom Plan
FRANKFURT, Germany, May 20 - Joel Brand, whom the Nazis used as an envoy in their unsuccessful plan to trade the lives of a million Jews for 10,000 trucks, said today that the plan was actually aimed at splitting the Soviet-Western Alliance. Mr. Brand, a former Budapest resident and now an Israeli citizen, gave a detailed account of the origin and failure of the plan at the trial here of Hermann Krumey and Otto Hunsche, two of Adolf Eichmann's closest collaborators in the extermination of Hungarian Jews, in 1944. He testified "that though the deal was suggested by Eichmann" it must have originated in the mind of Himmler as one of his desperate attempts at driving a wedge between the Allies." ... "I made a terrible mistake in passing this on to the British," Mr. Brand said. "It is now clear to me that Himmler sought to sow suspicion among the Allies as a preparation for his much desired Nazi-Western coalition against Moscow," he said.
You see why I suggested 2 pages? If mandated Palestine had been empty in the 1920s I don't think the British would have objected in the least bit to any number of Jewish immigrants, and setting up a state, but there were some people living there already and there had been some riots etc. by 1939. The wartime policy was designed to stop further killings in mandated Palestine, and was unpopular with both the more extreme Arabs and Jews. It may not have been flexible or imaginative, but it was designed to preserve the lives of all or most Jews and Arabs living there.
Clearly by 1944 Jews-in-Palestine and Jews-in-Axis-countries had a unique bond with all other Jews. But from Cairo's point of view, only the Jews-in-Palestine were their subjects (horrible word, but that was the word) and responsibility, and they wanted to avoid provoking the Arabs. These 'subjects' had to be protected, as it were, from themselves. A parent-child relationship that we can say was silly, but typical of all empires. 'Mandated' meant impermanent. Iraq had been turned over to a friendly king; Palestine would be turned over when a solution acceptable to most Jews and Arabs had been worked out. You've gathered by now that my POV is anti-empire and Moyne was very much pro-empire; but that was usual for his background and time.
At least the extra detail I've put in can allow Israeli and Jewish-interest researchers to understand more about Lord M, as up to now he might as well have been a wooden gatepost. When I said (somewhere above) that London had sent out one of the best guys for the job, of course I meant 'best' in Churchill's mind; in light of their 20-year friendship, which became very personal from 1934. When Britain linked its pound to gold again in 1925, Churchill was Chancellor and Moyne was his Secretary at the Treasury. They had been political enemies in 1907-1921. I know that this earlier stuff is of no interest to Holocaust studies, but it is to the country that these men came from (and which wikipedia came from), and so I ask from a practical aspect, with no disrespect to any of your views: what about 2 pages, linked of course but separate? I don't want to post Moyne's views on Turkey in 1913, or about the Irish situation in 1916-21, or his comment on Indonesia in the 1930s, or his view of Australians at Gallipoli, if someone with a 1940s focus is going to edit the whole lot out. Wikiman 13:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm about to post the early political stuff and am done. Nothing unusual except that he said in 1918 “Since the days of Mahomet no prophet has been listened to with more superstitious respect than has President Wilson” - which would be odd if he were an Arabist? It seems he was pro-Ataturk in the 1920s, and by 1922 the Turks and Arabs had split. He went from Beirut to (Trans)Jordan with Churchill in 1934, but to classical Petra, not to Amman. Wikiman 18:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
We have this sentence, which I will assume is an accurate report of what Bell writes:
Of course Bell may be completely correct that "Gurion, a former Irgunist" made these claims, but why is it noteworthy that some non-famous person from an organization that was not involved in the assassination is able to get the dates all wrong? -- McKay 02:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Amoruso, please explain how the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries had the power to deport people from Palestine. Alternatively, you can provide a source that explains it. All you gave so far is a report that some former Irgun member claimed it. That's not good enough. The internal records of the British government relating to the Atlantic/Patria affair have been examined at length by several historians who published their findings in easily-accessible places. Did they confirm your claim? -- Zero talk 13:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The background to this is that Lehi did not kill Moyne just for his personal actions. He was killed as a representative of the British government. That's why Lehi cited events like Patria, which Moyne had nothing to do with personally, amongst their reasons. The distinction has been confused. Even Gerold Frank, who later wrote the book "The Deed" about the assassination, made the mistake of writing (first isssue of Commentary magazine in 1945) that Moyne was Colonial Secretary when the Patria was sunk; in fact the Colonial Secretary then was George Lloyd, 1st Baron Lloyd. We should try to use good modern sources and get the facts right. Erroneous claims from older sources are only of interest if the claims themselves were part of the story. -- Zero talk 13:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
In fact, this claim that "Bell writes that, according to Gurion, a former Irgunist..." is illustrative of the real problem here. In fact, no such thing appears in Bell's book at all. Amoruso just copied this from somewhere that has an editing mistake and falsely presented it as something he had verified himself. -- Zero talk 02:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
what on earth are you talking about ? Amoruso 10:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The connection is obvious. The same question is raised "Why was Brandt been locked away while Jews were dying"... it's the same connection of allies not helping the Jews in their catastrophe. Amoruso 12:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Do not delete sourced material again. Use talk if you wish to make drastic changes again. Thank you. Amoruso 15:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the claim that the assassins had support in Egypt: "Until now Arabic commentators have been silent. But now telegrams from Arabic organizations flood the court. They protest that the defense of these two boys in this Cairo courtroom amounts to a sponsorship of the Zionist case, and that it is intolerable that Cairo, the center of pan-Islam and the heart of the Arab league, should become a sounding board for Zionism." (Gerold Frank, The Moyne Case. Commentary, vol 1, p71). Maybe they had supporters as well, but we don't have a good source for that and we can't just give one side of it. It's clear that we don't actually have good evidence either way for this. -- Zero talk 02:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs a list of people who were killed first and then judged... 86.42.203.104 17:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Where exactly is this place? Amoruso 17:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
On what evidence was Ira Hirschmann, one of the most effective aid workers of the war, dismissed as "a radical right-wing Zionist"? None is provided, although it is likely to have been added as a sort automatic "first name" to the word epithet "Zionist".
Without support, I have removed it. Scott Adler 07:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I am adding the word "Jewish" to discern the fact that Lehi was a Jewish Zionist organization. Since there are also non-Jewish Zionist organizations, I think the clarity is needed.
Marcadams99 15:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC) Marcus, Aug. 16th, 2007
Brand never expected to evacuate a "million Jews" to the British in 1944, so it follows that Moyne (if it was Moyne) could not have said: "...what can I do with a million Jews?".
Brand's (enormous) problem was that he knew that he had to start with a lower amount, and hope that after the first exodus the British would take more. Also, Eichmann (on whom the whole deal rested) had said specifically that no refugees should go to Palestine. This doesn't come across in the article. It's worth examining the relevant part of the Q & A from the Eichmann trial:
(Q= the court, A = Joel Brand):
Q. Yesterday you explained that you did not want to refer to the large figure of one hundred thousand Jews in the presence of English officers.
A. I assume - I forget - that the reason was - yes, I was afraid of the English. In Budapest we had decided to say as little as possible to the English, not to give them any information, but to the Americans, and I knew what their position was, the White Paper, the certificates every month - I was afraid, I wanted to say as little as possible.
Q. Eichmann's proposal was not to send these Jews to Palestine, but to a neutral country, and he said explicitly to you "not to Palestine," did he not?
A. Yes, that was one of the dilemmas.
Q. I am not asking about the dilemma. Why were you afraid to reveal the proposal to the English? After all, it had nothing to do with the White Paper.
A. The Zionist organization to which I belonged had only one interest - emigration to Palestine; the Germans were interested in extermination. The world was interested in not letting the Jews in. I was stuck in the middle. I turned and twisted, in order not to step on either side's corns.
Q. Mr. Brand, if you were not afraid to reveal to Mr. Sharett, then Shertok, in the presence of English officers, the proposal to release a million Jews, why were you afraid to reveal the detail that, if a positive reply were given, they would start with one hundred thousand?
A. I am convinced that I said that the Germans would take the first step and release Jews. Today I have already said once that in the first months, and to this day...
Q. Mr. Brand, it seems to me that that is not an answer to the question.
A. Your Honour, I must reply. I bargained with myself, as I said today: They will give five thousand, they will give ten thousand, a hundred and twenty-thousand, they will give a hundred thousand; I bargained with myself.
Anyone interested in the rest of the Q & A should look at and around: [4] 86.42.222.44 09:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've created an article on this ship at SS Dieppe (1905). There is plenty said about Rosaura in this article but the sources are offline and I don't have them. Assistance in expanding the article about the ship from these sources is welcome. Mjroots ( talk) 09:46, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Zero has re-inserted the weasel-words "amplified by his assassins Lehi" and a lengthy apologia from one author (without volunteering the source). It is not debatable that Moyne made these remarks. If one wants to make excuses for his remarks, it should be a part of a balanced discussion, drawing on a number of sources - not cherry-picking from one source, not available to us. I have asked that he show a copy of the source, but he has ignored my request and chosen to edit war instead.
For the record, his recent contributions show a continuing pattern of deleting any information that reflects negatively on the Palestinians, including impeccable sources such as Benny Morris, and amplifying anything that reflects negatively on the Zionists. Pilusi3 ( talk) 22:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
The Portuguese Wikipedia article for Walter Guinness is at pt:Walter Guiness. Should this be moved to pt:Walter Guinness (with two n's?) Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 01:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
This campaign medal which Moyne received for his Boer War services never entitled recipients to be called "QSAM" as a postnominal abbreviation. I will therefore delete the letters used as postnominals in this article's infobox. Cloptonson ( talk) 21:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
We appear to see nothing of his interest in Jewish and Palestine matters until the section headed Blood For Trucks Proposal, about an affair of early 1944, yet Moyne was publicly expressing interest in them before then, notably his 1942 speech on Jews in the British Army which appears in the middle of the narrative about his murderers' trial. I suggest the material be looked at to see if there are details that could be moved to earlier in the page than they appear now. Cloptonson ( talk) 20:58, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me for intruding as I'm a great-grandson of Walter. The problem with the WW2 info is that he is notable from one aspect of Zionist history; but he was also notable from other perspectives.
Wikipedia has a clare policy to avoid using the word "terrorist". Ad editor has suggested that we violate this policy, because "that is what they were called at the tome". I wonder of this same editor thinks we could edit all articles about turn-of-the-century african Americans, and describe them a N****s, since that;s what they were called at the time. SInce the answer to that is an obvious no, the same should be done here.
Epson Salts (
talk) 14:16, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
It is very odd to write that the group were "suddenly told not to move". By whom, and why? It would make more sense to write that the terrorists emerged from hiding (where?) when the vehicle arrived, and (who?) presented weapons and told the passengers not to move, or something of that sort. Royalcourtier ( talk) 06:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@ VwM.Mwv:@ Mean as custard: Thank you for kind reminder of WP:3RR which I was going to remind you of, but as you have deliberately crossed it I have to assume you knew what you were doing. I also asked you to look at the talk page which you either have (and ignored) or have not bothered to, (for what reason I cannot fathom). Anyway to assist the link is here. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia, which as editors we are trying to produce a platform of knowledge, presented in a factual way. As you will see from the link, the group called themselves terrorists, as did and do many others. I await your reply with interest. Edmund Patrick – confer 10:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Edmund Patrick: No, I hadn't seen that link until now. Anyway, it too is irrelevant for the same reason as your repeated claim that they "referred to themselves as terrorists"; that's simply not how the sentence is phrased. If you wish to write about the nature of the individual assassins, you may do so, but the sources at the Lehi (militant group) page refer to the group as "paramilitary", not "terrorist". VwM.Mwv ( talk) 11:30, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: Now it's even weirder. So it's a "terror organization" according to the highest executive, yet it's "state supported"? And supported by what state? Israel was not proclaimed until 1948. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:00, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: Okay, I'll use the sources from the Lehi (militant group) article if that's really necessary. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:14, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
To editor VwM.Mwv: You are not allowed to edit here, see your talk page. To editor RTG: The Lehi was not state-supported and not really a forerunner of the IDF. It is true that some units of the Lehi were disbanded and incorporated into the IDF, but they formed a minute fraction of it. As for "terrorist", we generally avoid the word but in this case we shouldn't ignore the fact that they called themselves terrorists. Nor should we ignore that an Israeli court judged them to be a terrorist group after they killed Bernadotte in 1948. Zero talk 09:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Okay, what about "self-described terrorists from the Jewish paramilitary group Lehi"? I still haven't seen any evidence that the group was terrorist in nature, either by external or self-description at the time of this assassination. VwM.Mwv ( talk)
@
Zero0000,
RTG, and
Mean as custard: According to the
Lehi page: Lehi [...] was a Zionist paramilitary organization founded by Avraham ("Yair") Stern in Mandatory Palestine. Its avowed aim was to evict the British authorities from Palestine by resort to force, allowing unrestricted immigration of Jews and the formation of a Jewish state, a "new totalitarian Hebrew republic".
All that seems perfectly reasonable to me except the last part; totalitarianism is an immoral & pathetic ideology (so is any ideology advocating the
initiation of force, for that matter). I personally consider Lord Moyne a legitimate target because he represented a regime which was actively initiating force against the Jewish community of Palestine. Anyway, my main point is, we can't call the group "terrorist" without any evidence. If the
WP:reliable sources (RS) on the Lehi page refer to the group as "paramilitary" (which they do), then so must this page. If anyone wants to include RS that the individual assassins referred to themselves as "terrorists", then I have no objections.
VwM.Mwv (
talk) 13:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@ RTG: I like you. You're an interesting person. And I'm sure we could go on all night about history, culture, morality, and personal stories (etc). But you still haven't refuted my main point. Sure, all terrorist groups are paramilitaries, but not all paramilitaries are terrorist groups. Again, this particular lede sentence we're discussing is about the group, not the individual assassins. Since the Lehi page describes the group as "paramilitary", why should it be any different here? VwM.Mwv ( talk) 17:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
@
RTG: Well, the sources used at the
Lehi page describing it as "paramilitary" are not primary. They are from the Washington Post and Oxford Dictionaries. Btw, neither is the source currently used at this page (Etzel is synonymous with
Irgun, not Lehi).
Terrorism is defined on Wikipedia as the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a religious or political aim.
Do you have any evidence that their primary motivation for the assassination was to "create fear"? Moyne, I presume, may have done some very good things. However, that does not excuse the fact that he represented a regime which immorally initiated force against Jews (both residents and migrants), and illegally prevented Jews from immigrating to Palestine in violation of the
1922 League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
VwM.Mwv (
talk) 19:51, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
My dictionary says that "paramilitary" means "organized like a military force". It may be possible to apply this to Lehi in its final years, when it took part in some operations of a "military" nature, such as the Deir Yassin massacre, but at the time of the Moyne assassination it was a tiny underground group which carried out politically-motivated assassinations of British personnel and Jewish "traitors" (more of the latter, incidentally). It was definitely not a paramilitary organization then. As to what to call it, "underground" would be true and acceptable, but I think "terrorist" is also true and acceptable. What else would we call a private underground group today which specialises in killing government officials? When Moyne was killed, all the mainstream Jewish leaders called it terrorism. There are tons of modern reliable secondary sources that do too. I can give examples of both of these claims. Zero talk 02:23, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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I'd like to addn this with a source; he was accepted onto the SWC staff in October 1918 based on "knowledge of French and the Eatsern Theatre besides staff experience". PatrickGuinness ( talk) 13:35, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
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I have uploaded an image on wikimedia of Walter Guinness that is out of copyright, please can someone add it: Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne.png PhotoBooth1111 ( talk) 12:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Much of this article currently reads like an apologetic obituary rather than an objective summary of Lord Moyne's life. Most telling is the sub-section entitled "Views", where Lord Moyne's virulently antisemitic convictions are systematically downplayed and glossed over. In order to do so, it relies on a single source (Wassertstein 1979 & 1980, cited 8 times in only 7 lines of text) and selective quotation of Moyne's June 9, 1942 speech at the House of Lords. Above the last paragraph, his views on settlement appear, yet when it comes to the antisemitic language in his speeches we are told that he made another speech in the House of Lords where he claimed that the Arabs were a "purer" race than the Jews... However this is from the exact same speech that is being quoted, just before the quoted part in fact he said the following:
"The tragedy of the Palestinian question is, as was said by the Royal Commission, that it is a conflict between two rights. When Jerusalem was destroyed and its site ploughed up in the year 135 A.D., the Jews had occupied the country for about 1,300 years. Since the Mahomedan invasion of 632 the Arabs have occupied Palestine for practically the same period. To these Arabs the Jews are not only alien in culture but also in blood. It is very often loosely said that Jews are Semites, but anthropologists tell us that, pure as they have kept their culture, the Jewish race has been much mixed with Gentiles since the beginning of the Diaspora. During the Babylonian captivity they acquired a strong Hittite admixture, and it is obvious that the Armenoid features which are still found among the Sephardim have been bred out of the Ashkenazim by an admixture of Slav blood.
The Zionist movement has its main spring among those Jews of Poland and Eastern Europe. Their leaders demand that an already overcrowded Palestine should be trebled in its population by the admixture of another three million Jews immediately after the war. Now it is not a matter of putting a quart into a pint pot, it is a matter of putting exactly three pints into a pint pot."
The statement speaks for itself, these are Moyne's own words after all. Why not simply quote this instead of relying on dubious excuses such as "Moyne was an amateur anthropologist"? Likewise, on the issue of settlement, the following part of the speech (immediately after the part that is quoted in the article):
"We ought, therefore, to look at once in all directions to find means to re-establish these martyrs to Nazi oppression in a new life. The Zionists look only to Palestine. On May 25, at the annual dinner of the Anglo-American Palestine Committee, Dr. Weizmann again declared that Palestine alone could absorb and provide for the homeless and Stateless Jews uprooted by the war. It is to canalize all the sympathy of the world for the martyrdom of the Jews that the Zionists reject all schemes to re-settle these victims elsewhere—in Germany, or Poland, or in sparsely populated regions such as Madagascar."
Here we learn that in 1942, the deadliest year of the Holocaust (of which the British government was fully aware), Lord Moyne wanted to resettle the Jewish victims not in Palestine but in Germany, Poland or Madagascar. One wouldn't even suspect that from reading the current article.
Judging from the article's current content, it is painfully obvious that the editors are much more interested in polishing Lord Moyne's reputation than in producing a factually-accurate article. I will let everyone guess as to why this is the case, though in my view the reasons are equally obvious. Regardless, the article (and the sub-section I spoke of in particular) at this point in time is nothing more than a heavily-slanted obituary relying on a tiny minority of historians 2A01:CB1C:34B:0:59EC:9142:42AB:D5D1 ( talk) 16:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
"where he claimed that the Arabs were a 'purer' race than the Jews"— no such statement or implication appears in Moyne's speech, which I just read again very carefully. The fact that you misread it illustrates why Wikipedia prefers to have secondary sources do the interpretation. There are four people and one group cited against Moyne on this point and only one person for Moyne, so if the presentation is unbalanced it is in the opposite direction to what you claim. The details of Moyne's statement about the ancestry of Jews do not match current scientific understanding, but the general point that Jews have mixed origin is what modern genetics says too ( this figure showing two different methods of analysis is a useful summary). The idea that questioning racial purity is antisemitic is appalling anyway. Zero talk 03:52, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Here's some "selective quoting" from another debate, in 1944, following the killing of Moyne. The speaker is Lord Samuel, who was Jewish. He was also the first of the High Commissioners for Palestine and Transjordan, and as such the first Jewish ruler of Israel for some 2,000 years. The link is [ Here]. He was a supporter of Zionism, but did not describe Moyne as anti-Semitic. I think this debate can be closed.
Those murderers have not yet been identified, but your Lordships will understand the distress that I feel, having given five years of my life, as High Commissioner of Palestine, to the building of a new State there, and to aiding a movement inspired by an intense idealism and hating every kind of violence, priding itself on its humanitarian spirit, to think that it may be possible that these murderers have come from the Jewish Palestinian population. If it should prove to be so, that population, I feel certain, will see that it is vital to extirpate from their midst this hateful group of criminals.
Lord Moyne touched life on many sides. He had interests in science and in art; as a soldier in the last war he was three times mentioned in despatches, and won the Distinguished Service Order and bar. In politics he served for very many years in the House of Commons and in various high offices in the Government. He was active in the service of this House, and attained the highest position in its gift, that of Leader, in which he won a universal popularity. Such is the man whom we mourn, and such is the memory which his family amid their sorrow may always cherish. 78.16.30.140 ( talk) 13:18, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Edits contained swapped dates, swapped Kings and odd order of listings. I rolled back so may have removed a correct edit somewhere along the line but after a view of Kashmiri Munda talk page I felt in the first instance it was the best thing to do. Edmund Patrick – confer 09:03, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
I added an official statement that I found in 1944 Haaretz. Here is the Hebrew text in case someone wants to improve the translation. Feel free to correct it if it doesn't match the image.