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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I can't edit, can someone add it? Egezort ( talk) 01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think that "and claimed that Shoigu had allegedly" is a little redundant and could be shortened to "and alleged that Shoigu had". Largely Legible Layman ( talk) 02:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This is a staple of all conflict Wikipedia pages, but this certain page doesnt have one. Russian Wikipedia has already done it... why cant we? Brojiden69 ( talk) 02:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion/Archive 1 | |||||||
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Part of Russian invasion of Ukraine | |||||||
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The lead section is only one paragraph and for some viewers its to much to read. Please spit some of the line to make it two paragraph and not just one singular paragraph. SteamManx ( talk) 09:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In "International reactions", add the following:
References
As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 ( talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [1] [2]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In 'see also', add a link to the page of Valery Sablin, who attempted a similar mutiny. Spider Gwen from Spider Gwen ( talk) 16:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Add the German response under International Reactions:
From the Official Twitter of the German Foreign Minister:
"We are continuously monitoring the current developments in Russia and are in close contact with our international Partners. German Citizens in Russia are urged to observe our adapted travel and safety instructions."
Source: https://twitter.com/ABaerbock/status/1672562208973156355 2A01:C23:B97D:E400:7D94:A381:3CC4:22F1 ( talk) 14:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In the map description, can you specify the colors and who controls what? E.G. Black = Controled by Wagner Group and Red = Controled by Russian Goverment? TheCorvetteZR1 (The Garage) 14:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Done
Iseult
Δx
parlez moi
14:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 ( talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In international reaction, under the Sweden bullet point, please amend with the following:
Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson tweeted "We closely follow the information on domestic political developments in Russia. Ministry for Foreign Affairs is in close contact with the embassy in Moscow, consulate general in Saint Petersburg and our international partners. I will discuss the issue with my Nordic Prime Minister colleagues when we meet tomorrow." [1] 185.83.93.99 ( talk) 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
like Prigozhin's revolt or something??? 75.25.129.9 ( talk) 18:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Status : Wagner troops retreat from controlled territories Tutarvafis ( talk) 18:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".
So it should be:
"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
instead of:
"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 ( talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved; strong support for moving to Wagner Group rebellion. — Ingenuity ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group mutiny →
Wagner Rebellion
Wagner Group rebellion – The renaming of this article from Mutiny to Rebellion has been discussed, with the overwhelming consensus being the the term "mutiny" is incorrect (for a number of reasons), and that the article should be renamed "Wagner Rebellion" Thanks!
/info/en/?search=Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Mutiny_or_Rebellion?
Deathlibrarian (
talk)
04:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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As we said in the other Requested move, people agree on adding group and 2023 to it. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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I think this is a ruse and this site shouldn't help Putin pull it off. If it is and some Russian reads this article and is inspired to join a false cause, then there might be blood on the hands of the editors on here. This article should be deleted in order to avoid interfering. 2604:2D80:6305:600:21FF:8A5D:758:ED86 ( talk) 10:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:SNOW. ( non-admin closure) Ecrusized ( talk) 15:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion → Rebellion of the Wagner Group – The article was successfully moved from "mutiny" to "rebellion". Now I only want to purpose a change in wording which in my opinion feels more natural. There's many articles following this style, see Rebellion of the Alpujarras (1568–1571), Rebellion of the Three Guards or Rebellion of 1088. Super Ψ Dro 14:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 ( talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 ( Talk · Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
How come Crimea is painted as Russian territory? According to international treaties and ratified boundaries, Crimea is the (temporary occupied by Russia) territory of Ukraine. It should be painted by light green. Let's correct. Pterodaktilis ( talk) 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Reaction of Dutch Minister or Foreign Affairs Wopke Hoekstra on the Wagner Group Mutiny: "Volg met veel aandacht de binnenlandse ontwikkelingen in Rusland. Daarnaast ben ik in nauw contact met de ambassade, die er alles aan doet om een duidelijk beeld te krijgen van de situatie. Via het reisadvies & de informatieservice informeren we Nederlanders die in het land zijn."
Translated: "Following the internal developments in Russia with close attention. Also in close contact with the embassy, which is doing everything in their power to get a clear image of the current situation. We inform our citizens by means of our travel advice and the information service [of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs]."
https://twitter.com/WBHoekstra/status/1672526599277666304
Do with is as you like, Keep up the good work! 2A02:A460:301E:1:E074:B329:84E:116 ( talk) 10:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak urged "all parties to exercise responsibility and protect civilian lives". [1]
References
Lukys1 ( talk) 11:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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PM Trudeau stated: "Canada's incident response group will meet on Saturday to discuss the latest developments in Russia," and in a tweet said, "Canada is in contact with allies and will continue to monitor the situation closely."
Source: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ottawa-says-monitoring-tensions-russia-154643753.html
45.44.182.194 ( talk) 17:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
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[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".
So it should be:
"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
instead of:
"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 ( talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The sentence "However, Putin did not mention Prigozhin or Wagner explicitly." should be removed, since Putin did mention it on his speech: http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71496 He does it in the eighth paragraph. Ektoras duncan ( talk) 11:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby ( talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Someone needs to compare and contrast the start of the russian revolution. 2602:306:BC74:6240:2D1B:6FD8:BBA:3BE0 ( talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.
If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable ( talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:
https://t.me/khodorkovski/8345 https://archive.is/lb1xv LocalStinko ( talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath ( talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think there is enough information out as of yet to warrant calling this a coup, much less a Civil War. What do you guys think? Professor Penguino ( talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Recently found a video of a "downed Wagner helicopter" https://t.me/rusbrief/129265 Clearly see the tail of the helicopter as something is burning 76.132.246.141 ( talk) 05:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We're forgetting the larger context to this: on June 10, all mercenary groups were ordered by Shoigu to register with the Russian military by the end of June. The Wagner group refused that order on June 11, which clearly set the stage for the trainwreck to come. Though the claimed attack on the Wagner group, that set off this rebellion, hasn't (yet) been decisively confirmed, it's clear from context that the action would have been the "or else" part of Shoigu's order, and is clearly motivated by that rationale, and should be understood as such in that larger context. At the very least, the earlier events should be listed as "precursors" to the revolt, since the conflict entailed by the June 10 declaration and June 11 response set the stage for what was to come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.226.169 ( talk) 14:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Didnt they agree on a “peace treaty”? If so then this article needs to be changed a bit. 46.8.172.177 ( talk) 19:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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I found some grammar error in the aftermath section (the word at the very end of the section) please change the sentence from "things" to "armed rebellion" Little kevin341 Edits ( talk) 03:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Why was this sentence deleted?
"These talks were preceded by a fact that, according to Olga Romanova, the head of the civil rights organization Russia Behind Bars, the Federal Security Service started to take hostages from the family members of the convicts recruited by the Wagner Group. [1]"
Here is another source https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/06/24/voiska-prigozhina-voshli-v-rostov-chvk-vagner-podderzhal-khodorkovskii K8M8S8 ( talk) 20:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
@ Norschweden Per WP:BRD, can you please explain why you reverted my edit and restored material coming from a primary source? We can't use this post unless reliable media are also covering it. HappyWith ( talk) 20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Wikipedia where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya ( talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It would be nice if images of Wagner forces in the streets or any of the reported fighting can be added -- Nilsol2 ( talk) 08:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Why does this section in the table include casualties before the actual start of the event? Killuminator ( talk) 09:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history. However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Non- ECP user making ECP move request. ( non-admin closure) Ecrusized ( talk) 08:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Wagner Group rebellion – I propose to change the article title from Wagner Group rebellion to 2023 Wagner Group rebellion WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 07:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Reddit~enwiki ( talk) 11:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Prigozhin previously warned of a new 1917 [7] and reemphasized its basis [8] and now we have Potemkin Mutiny [9] -- 64.229.90.172 ( talk) 06:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I know this may be dumb question, but would the mutiny be considered a civil war? If not, why? TheMaster3dit0r6969 ( talk) 09:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
At some point it may be but not there yet. For our purposes we wait for sources. Volunteer Marek 15:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Volodymyr Zelenskyy responsed to this mutiny on Telegram: [10]. BlackShadowG ( talk) 11:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
> Yevgeny Prigozhin was formerly sometimes described as a confidant of Russian president Vladimir Putin and was his personal chef.
This phrase is clearly some kind of nonsense. What kind of chef when by the 2000s he was an accomplished businessman? What? Personal chef? That's his nickname not his job Gamma1138 ( talk) 12:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Apparently Wagner forces were reported to be in the oblast, having passed Barabanovo, with rumors of them being on the outskirts of Moscow itself. Should the map be updated? Chaotic Enby ( talk) 14:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think socportal.info is a reliable source. You can just scroll it's main page and see its bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordi2023 ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Why Russia is listed in infobox as having only 200 men in defense positions? Cactus Ronin ( talk) 15:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Status : Wagner troops retreat to field camps Tutarvafis ( talk) 18:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
So, obviously I cannot edit this page at this time. However, I believe Russia's push to place Wagner into its command structure should be noted in the prelude. It caused friction between Russia and Wagner. Feel free to use
<ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref>
as a citation. To quote it, "Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday he backed a Defence Ministry order for mercenary groups fighting in Ukraine to sign contracts with it before July 1, something the high-profile Wagner Group has pointedly refused to do. [...] Yevgeny Prigozhin, founder of Wagner and Russia's most powerful mercenary, has said his group will not sign a contract, citing what he regards as the inability of Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, someone whom Prigozhin has repeatedly vilified, to manage groups like his. [...] The new contract system would much more closely integrate Wagner and Prigozhin, regarded as a reckless but effective maverick by some government officials, into the Defence Ministry's command structure in a subordinate position. [...] That would make it harder for Prigozhin to build his own political and military influence, something he has spent months doing while receiving military hardware and ammunition from the army." Editoronthewiki ( talk) 00:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Chapter 'Resolution' refers to Prigozhin attempting to contact the administration on July 24th rather than June 24th. This needs to be corrected ASAP. CaliforniaChampagne ( talk) 09:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Resolution article CracksInTheFloor ( talk) 16:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
"Latvia is closely following the developing situation in Russia and exchanging information with allies Border security has been strengthened, visa or border entry from Russians leaving Russia due to current events won’t be considered" LatviaRich ( talk) 16:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Are there sources of these name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.25.177.133 ( talk) 17:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the infobox lists the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment as being on the side of PMC Wagner, as per a Socportal source. According to a Tweet, this happened over 2 hours ago. If this were true, it would be pretty difficult to cover up, so there should be other sources as well. There aren't. I have a suspicion Socportal is not a reliable source. Dieknon ( talk) 16:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Seems likely, lukashenko announces it meanwhile he was so close to moscow As well as he has been silent, also he didn't mind shooting down helicopters, why would he suddenly care about "bloodshed" when he got thousands killed on both sides in Ukraine. Seems veey fishy to me. THEREALhistoryandgames ( talk) 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Please add a loss of an antonov An-26 aircraft to the russian loss list. HankolainenHistorikko ( talk) 09:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add in section Reactions in sub-heading 1 International under inscription Ukraine ,, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted on Telegram on 24 June 2023 ,,He terrorizes with rockets, and when they are shot down, he humiliates himself to give "Shaheda". He despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war - in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow Oblast from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares the year 1917, although he is not able to lead to anything else. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness..'' referring to the conflict between the recent allies of the Russian forces and the Wagner Group. [1]'' - Duosdebs01 ( talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
Borgenland ( talk) 11:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Roads into Russian-controlled Donetsk blocked: Al Jazeera reporter
Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem reporting from Russian-occupied Donetsk says the situation in the city is fluid.
“The Wagner Group marched into the city and took control of the central command centre and now we are hearing that they are besieging most of the government buildings there,” Hashem said.
“All roads to and from Donetsk are blocked and fighters from Wagner are on the streets of the city,” he said.
“There were some attempts by a few people to kind of protest but there was a crackdown on them.”
Tips for the Map. I'll mention this in the article once an article format of this story comes out. Borgenland ( talk) 12:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The leader of the Wagner Group has asserted that the entire force had organized itself as "the patriots" (Ru: патриоты) against the FSB and other authorities, labeling Putin and senior figures under the leader as "the bastards" (Ru: подонков). Or that's what I understand. I don't speak Russian. Is there anything about the commentary here that perhaps an English language reader might miss? CoffeeWithMarkets ( talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
See here. Count Iblis ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Response of Freedom of Russia Legion: [11] BlackShadowG ( talk) 14:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add the Russian volunteer corps and army collaborators to the Wagner side. 2A02:3030:808:E225:1:0:C5CF:87A2 ( talk) 14:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Add a map with more colours to indicate Ukrainian territory held by Russia. Tftz845 ( talk) 14:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I'd really like to add Prigozhin's response to Putin's speech, namely, "Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president" as being very relevant to the article. It was posted on his official telegram, but that's a primary source. A number of secondary sources have ALSO reported on it, but I'm not sure which would be the best... I'd prefer one of the big world media companies like the BBC, but the secondary sources that have reported on this are... not good. Business Today, News 18, Newsweek, all blacklisted by wikipedia, for good reason. Anyone have a better secondary source? Or would this be a good place to just use the primary source? Or does the fact that BBC hasn't reported this quote really mean that it's not inclusion-worthy? Fieari ( talk) 15:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1. The reaction of Finland regarding the subject; Petteri Orpo, the prime minister of Finland has been in contact with Kaja Kallas (PM of Estonia) and Krišjānis Kariņsi (PM of Latvia) in regards of the group rebellion. Finland is closely cooperating with Estonia and Latvia. Orpo's tweet
2. More info regarding the reaction of the chechens regarding the subject - the chechen leader also stated the following: “The [Wagner Group) rebellion must be crushed, and if this requires harsh measures, then we are ready!” [ [12]]
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I can't edit, can someone add it? Egezort ( talk) 01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think that "and claimed that Shoigu had allegedly" is a little redundant and could be shortened to "and alleged that Shoigu had". Largely Legible Layman ( talk) 02:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This is a staple of all conflict Wikipedia pages, but this certain page doesnt have one. Russian Wikipedia has already done it... why cant we? Brojiden69 ( talk) 02:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion/Archive 1 | |||||||
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Part of Russian invasion of Ukraine | |||||||
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The lead section is only one paragraph and for some viewers its to much to read. Please spit some of the line to make it two paragraph and not just one singular paragraph. SteamManx ( talk) 09:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In "International reactions", add the following:
References
As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 ( talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [1] [2]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In 'see also', add a link to the page of Valery Sablin, who attempted a similar mutiny. Spider Gwen from Spider Gwen ( talk) 16:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Add the German response under International Reactions:
From the Official Twitter of the German Foreign Minister:
"We are continuously monitoring the current developments in Russia and are in close contact with our international Partners. German Citizens in Russia are urged to observe our adapted travel and safety instructions."
Source: https://twitter.com/ABaerbock/status/1672562208973156355 2A01:C23:B97D:E400:7D94:A381:3CC4:22F1 ( talk) 14:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In the map description, can you specify the colors and who controls what? E.G. Black = Controled by Wagner Group and Red = Controled by Russian Goverment? TheCorvetteZR1 (The Garage) 14:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Done
Iseult
Δx
parlez moi
14:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 ( talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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In international reaction, under the Sweden bullet point, please amend with the following:
Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson tweeted "We closely follow the information on domestic political developments in Russia. Ministry for Foreign Affairs is in close contact with the embassy in Moscow, consulate general in Saint Petersburg and our international partners. I will discuss the issue with my Nordic Prime Minister colleagues when we meet tomorrow." [1] 185.83.93.99 ( talk) 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
like Prigozhin's revolt or something??? 75.25.129.9 ( talk) 18:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Status : Wagner troops retreat from controlled territories Tutarvafis ( talk) 18:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".
So it should be:
"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
instead of:
"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 ( talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved; strong support for moving to Wagner Group rebellion. — Ingenuity ( talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group mutiny →
Wagner Rebellion
Wagner Group rebellion – The renaming of this article from Mutiny to Rebellion has been discussed, with the overwhelming consensus being the the term "mutiny" is incorrect (for a number of reasons), and that the article should be renamed "Wagner Rebellion" Thanks!
/info/en/?search=Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Mutiny_or_Rebellion?
Deathlibrarian (
talk)
04:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As we said in the other Requested move, people agree on adding group and 2023 to it. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think this is a ruse and this site shouldn't help Putin pull it off. If it is and some Russian reads this article and is inspired to join a false cause, then there might be blood on the hands of the editors on here. This article should be deleted in order to avoid interfering. 2604:2D80:6305:600:21FF:8A5D:758:ED86 ( talk) 10:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. WP:SNOW. ( non-admin closure) Ecrusized ( talk) 15:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion → Rebellion of the Wagner Group – The article was successfully moved from "mutiny" to "rebellion". Now I only want to purpose a change in wording which in my opinion feels more natural. There's many articles following this style, see Rebellion of the Alpujarras (1568–1571), Rebellion of the Three Guards or Rebellion of 1088. Super Ψ Dro 14:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 ( talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 ( Talk · Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
How come Crimea is painted as Russian territory? According to international treaties and ratified boundaries, Crimea is the (temporary occupied by Russia) territory of Ukraine. It should be painted by light green. Let's correct. Pterodaktilis ( talk) 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Reaction of Dutch Minister or Foreign Affairs Wopke Hoekstra on the Wagner Group Mutiny: "Volg met veel aandacht de binnenlandse ontwikkelingen in Rusland. Daarnaast ben ik in nauw contact met de ambassade, die er alles aan doet om een duidelijk beeld te krijgen van de situatie. Via het reisadvies & de informatieservice informeren we Nederlanders die in het land zijn."
Translated: "Following the internal developments in Russia with close attention. Also in close contact with the embassy, which is doing everything in their power to get a clear image of the current situation. We inform our citizens by means of our travel advice and the information service [of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs]."
https://twitter.com/WBHoekstra/status/1672526599277666304
Do with is as you like, Keep up the good work! 2A02:A460:301E:1:E074:B329:84E:116 ( talk) 10:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak urged "all parties to exercise responsibility and protect civilian lives". [1]
References
Lukys1 ( talk) 11:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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PM Trudeau stated: "Canada's incident response group will meet on Saturday to discuss the latest developments in Russia," and in a tweet said, "Canada is in contact with allies and will continue to monitor the situation closely."
Source: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ottawa-says-monitoring-tensions-russia-154643753.html
45.44.182.194 ( talk) 17:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
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[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".
So it should be:
"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
instead of:
"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"
(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 ( talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The sentence "However, Putin did not mention Prigozhin or Wagner explicitly." should be removed, since Putin did mention it on his speech: http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71496 He does it in the eighth paragraph. Ektoras duncan ( talk) 11:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby ( talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Someone needs to compare and contrast the start of the russian revolution. 2602:306:BC74:6240:2D1B:6FD8:BBA:3BE0 ( talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.
If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable ( talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:
https://t.me/khodorkovski/8345 https://archive.is/lb1xv LocalStinko ( talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath ( talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think there is enough information out as of yet to warrant calling this a coup, much less a Civil War. What do you guys think? Professor Penguino ( talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Recently found a video of a "downed Wagner helicopter" https://t.me/rusbrief/129265 Clearly see the tail of the helicopter as something is burning 76.132.246.141 ( talk) 05:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We're forgetting the larger context to this: on June 10, all mercenary groups were ordered by Shoigu to register with the Russian military by the end of June. The Wagner group refused that order on June 11, which clearly set the stage for the trainwreck to come. Though the claimed attack on the Wagner group, that set off this rebellion, hasn't (yet) been decisively confirmed, it's clear from context that the action would have been the "or else" part of Shoigu's order, and is clearly motivated by that rationale, and should be understood as such in that larger context. At the very least, the earlier events should be listed as "precursors" to the revolt, since the conflict entailed by the June 10 declaration and June 11 response set the stage for what was to come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.226.169 ( talk) 14:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Didnt they agree on a “peace treaty”? If so then this article needs to be changed a bit. 46.8.172.177 ( talk) 19:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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I found some grammar error in the aftermath section (the word at the very end of the section) please change the sentence from "things" to "armed rebellion" Little kevin341 Edits ( talk) 03:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Why was this sentence deleted?
"These talks were preceded by a fact that, according to Olga Romanova, the head of the civil rights organization Russia Behind Bars, the Federal Security Service started to take hostages from the family members of the convicts recruited by the Wagner Group. [1]"
Here is another source https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/06/24/voiska-prigozhina-voshli-v-rostov-chvk-vagner-podderzhal-khodorkovskii K8M8S8 ( talk) 20:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
@ Norschweden Per WP:BRD, can you please explain why you reverted my edit and restored material coming from a primary source? We can't use this post unless reliable media are also covering it. HappyWith ( talk) 20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Wikipedia where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya ( talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It would be nice if images of Wagner forces in the streets or any of the reported fighting can be added -- Nilsol2 ( talk) 08:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Why does this section in the table include casualties before the actual start of the event? Killuminator ( talk) 09:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history. However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 ( talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Non- ECP user making ECP move request. ( non-admin closure) Ecrusized ( talk) 08:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Wagner Group rebellion – I propose to change the article title from Wagner Group rebellion to 2023 Wagner Group rebellion WIKIROBOTBOT ( talk) 07:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Reddit~enwiki ( talk) 11:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Prigozhin previously warned of a new 1917 [7] and reemphasized its basis [8] and now we have Potemkin Mutiny [9] -- 64.229.90.172 ( talk) 06:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I know this may be dumb question, but would the mutiny be considered a civil war? If not, why? TheMaster3dit0r6969 ( talk) 09:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
At some point it may be but not there yet. For our purposes we wait for sources. Volunteer Marek 15:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Volodymyr Zelenskyy responsed to this mutiny on Telegram: [10]. BlackShadowG ( talk) 11:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
> Yevgeny Prigozhin was formerly sometimes described as a confidant of Russian president Vladimir Putin and was his personal chef.
This phrase is clearly some kind of nonsense. What kind of chef when by the 2000s he was an accomplished businessman? What? Personal chef? That's his nickname not his job Gamma1138 ( talk) 12:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Apparently Wagner forces were reported to be in the oblast, having passed Barabanovo, with rumors of them being on the outskirts of Moscow itself. Should the map be updated? Chaotic Enby ( talk) 14:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think socportal.info is a reliable source. You can just scroll it's main page and see its bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordi2023 ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Why Russia is listed in infobox as having only 200 men in defense positions? Cactus Ronin ( talk) 15:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Status : Wagner troops retreat to field camps Tutarvafis ( talk) 18:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
So, obviously I cannot edit this page at this time. However, I believe Russia's push to place Wagner into its command structure should be noted in the prelude. It caused friction between Russia and Wagner. Feel free to use
<ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref>
as a citation. To quote it, "Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday he backed a Defence Ministry order for mercenary groups fighting in Ukraine to sign contracts with it before July 1, something the high-profile Wagner Group has pointedly refused to do. [...] Yevgeny Prigozhin, founder of Wagner and Russia's most powerful mercenary, has said his group will not sign a contract, citing what he regards as the inability of Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, someone whom Prigozhin has repeatedly vilified, to manage groups like his. [...] The new contract system would much more closely integrate Wagner and Prigozhin, regarded as a reckless but effective maverick by some government officials, into the Defence Ministry's command structure in a subordinate position. [...] That would make it harder for Prigozhin to build his own political and military influence, something he has spent months doing while receiving military hardware and ammunition from the army." Editoronthewiki ( talk) 00:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Chapter 'Resolution' refers to Prigozhin attempting to contact the administration on July 24th rather than June 24th. This needs to be corrected ASAP. CaliforniaChampagne ( talk) 09:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
Resolution article CracksInTheFloor ( talk) 16:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
"Latvia is closely following the developing situation in Russia and exchanging information with allies Border security has been strengthened, visa or border entry from Russians leaving Russia due to current events won’t be considered" LatviaRich ( talk) 16:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Are there sources of these name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.25.177.133 ( talk) 17:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Currently, the infobox lists the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment as being on the side of PMC Wagner, as per a Socportal source. According to a Tweet, this happened over 2 hours ago. If this were true, it would be pretty difficult to cover up, so there should be other sources as well. There aren't. I have a suspicion Socportal is not a reliable source. Dieknon ( talk) 16:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Seems likely, lukashenko announces it meanwhile he was so close to moscow As well as he has been silent, also he didn't mind shooting down helicopters, why would he suddenly care about "bloodshed" when he got thousands killed on both sides in Ukraine. Seems veey fishy to me. THEREALhistoryandgames ( talk) 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Please add a loss of an antonov An-26 aircraft to the russian loss list. HankolainenHistorikko ( talk) 09:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add in section Reactions in sub-heading 1 International under inscription Ukraine ,, President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted on Telegram on 24 June 2023 ,,He terrorizes with rockets, and when they are shot down, he humiliates himself to give "Shaheda". He despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war - in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow Oblast from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares the year 1917, although he is not able to lead to anything else. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness..'' referring to the conflict between the recent allies of the Russian forces and the Wagner Group. [1]'' - Duosdebs01 ( talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
References
Borgenland ( talk) 11:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Roads into Russian-controlled Donetsk blocked: Al Jazeera reporter
Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem reporting from Russian-occupied Donetsk says the situation in the city is fluid.
“The Wagner Group marched into the city and took control of the central command centre and now we are hearing that they are besieging most of the government buildings there,” Hashem said.
“All roads to and from Donetsk are blocked and fighters from Wagner are on the streets of the city,” he said.
“There were some attempts by a few people to kind of protest but there was a crackdown on them.”
Tips for the Map. I'll mention this in the article once an article format of this story comes out. Borgenland ( talk) 12:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The leader of the Wagner Group has asserted that the entire force had organized itself as "the patriots" (Ru: патриоты) against the FSB and other authorities, labeling Putin and senior figures under the leader as "the bastards" (Ru: подонков). Or that's what I understand. I don't speak Russian. Is there anything about the commentary here that perhaps an English language reader might miss? CoffeeWithMarkets ( talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
See here. Count Iblis ( talk) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Response of Freedom of Russia Legion: [11] BlackShadowG ( talk) 14:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Add the Russian volunteer corps and army collaborators to the Wagner side. 2A02:3030:808:E225:1:0:C5CF:87A2 ( talk) 14:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Add a map with more colours to indicate Ukrainian territory held by Russia. Tftz845 ( talk) 14:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I'd really like to add Prigozhin's response to Putin's speech, namely, "Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president" as being very relevant to the article. It was posted on his official telegram, but that's a primary source. A number of secondary sources have ALSO reported on it, but I'm not sure which would be the best... I'd prefer one of the big world media companies like the BBC, but the secondary sources that have reported on this are... not good. Business Today, News 18, Newsweek, all blacklisted by wikipedia, for good reason. Anyone have a better secondary source? Or would this be a good place to just use the primary source? Or does the fact that BBC hasn't reported this quote really mean that it's not inclusion-worthy? Fieari ( talk) 15:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
1. The reaction of Finland regarding the subject; Petteri Orpo, the prime minister of Finland has been in contact with Kaja Kallas (PM of Estonia) and Krišjānis Kariņsi (PM of Latvia) in regards of the group rebellion. Finland is closely cooperating with Estonia and Latvia. Orpo's tweet
2. More info regarding the reaction of the chechens regarding the subject - the chechen leader also stated the following: “The [Wagner Group) rebellion must be crushed, and if this requires harsh measures, then we are ready!” [ [12]]