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Since this article's been moved to a new name in violation of proper procedures, I believe we should settle the matter this way or another. Constant bragging on the talk page apparently leads us nowhere, so perhaps it's high time we made some move. Ideally this article should be moved back to its original name, as there was no consensus to move it here in the first place, and then a proper WP:RM procedure could be held. However, we could let it stay here for a while and still hold the vote to confirm (or not) the move from its original title to the current name. The latter option might be misleading to those taking part in the voting, but would have a merit of not stirring too much emotions on all sides involved. I added a proper RM tag yesterday, but it was removed by Calgacus without explanation, so perhaps it would be easier if I asked the rest of us to state their views here. Alternatively, we could report the move to RfC or Arbcom or some other wiki authority, and only then hold a WP:RM voting, but that would be just a longer way to do the same.
Whatever the choice is, I'm currently working on expanding and sourcing this article. Let me know if you want to know where is my temporary page located. // Halibu tt 18:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear from the Elonka's mate poll that people want a break from this nonsense. 8 people voted on moving back to Wladyslaw, 15 saying don't move anything and have a break. I think that's what we should really do. P.S. someone, archive this page, please. Renata 20:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
All the Wikipedia with all or references is at our hand, I'm not "call me for an answer" serwice.-- Lokyz 01:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
At one point you might be right. But as I've told you before - simple math does not count. There is a fact that, Jogaila simply let Vytautas (who didn' have no son) to rule Lithuania. As one of my friends from studies says(he has a scientific degree), they both played unbelievable interesting check-mat party. And Jogaila and Vytautas have lost (almost) of all theyr brothers by exchanging them for power. You might look to what's left of Algirdas and Kestusi sons. It's reaaly amazing, that Vytautas went to Grunwald, after what they have done to each other. And no - at the time there were no Poles or Lithunians, who did mater - there were two Great Lithuanian born man who did play teyr game. not necessary check. And they both have won. They're cosidered as a two different nations heros. Altough I'm beggining to belive that whithout one there would not be another. So my a bit OR suggestion - if you wold accept Vytautas as a King, you'd have Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Just kidding of course, with a tongue in the cheek:) -- Lokyz 01:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
First we can stop putting inflammatory, unnecessary, "opinions" that cannot be verified and make no difference to the specific argument. Balcer, I did not protest the original insertion of the above remark of yours, because it was sufficiently negated by others (specifically Piotrus), and I do not feel that everyone has to comment on everybody else's comments, over and over. You know like the the brilliant comment, "ditto" that's quite popular. Please be assured that I was by know means outraged by your statement, Surprised, amused, and now bored maybe. Surprised because you typically are not known for such "gems". My problem with the remark is one can not judge the importance or power of these states by 21st century standards, and serves no purpose other than being inflammatory. It's like if I said Jogaila, the Polish ruler of Lithuanian ancestry, who formed the greatest dynasty in Poland's medieval and pre-Renaissance history, put their house in order. And when this Lithuanian established order ended, typical chaos returned. Or better still, Pilsudki, the Polish leader of Lithuanian ancestry, created modern Poland, and when he died the usually bałagan returned. Even if absurd remarks like those were completely true (because some parts are), I would oppose them as infammatory. Oh, and regarding Halibutt's remark that he ruled Poland unopposed, the article ambiguouly states that he ruled by default. That hardly seems true, and creates the perception that his rule was tolerated, but grudgingly so. Dr. Dan 13:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I know quite well which point you were referring too, and I said it was addressed by Piotrus sufficiently to my satifaction. Obviously the fact that I did not "protest" as well, or chime in, at that time, did not satisfy you. In spite of it ending as it should have, since IMO it's irrelevant, you chose to bring it up again. No favoritism for ones "own" side, no "anathemas", "otherwise", from me. Regarding the Polish leaders of Lithuanian heritage, too bad you think my disclaimer is not sincere from attempting to inflame this discussion, instead of it being a ridiculous example, on the level of your own interjection of a moot point, that I consider inflammatory. BTW, I'm truly glad on the international level, that relations between the two former partners of the PLC are good, and their leaders probably don't read these talk pages. Dr. Dan 01:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Not a problem, Balcer. I respect you as an intelligent, and fair contributor to the Wikipedia project. We all have our bad moments, I am as guilty as anyone else. Cheers. Dr. Dan 02:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
By no means am I an expert in the field (which btw makes me probably more statistical readed of this article than most of people taking part in this discussion), but I thought it could be useful to consider some analogies. Could someone who has adequate knowledge draw a comparison between Jagiello (however you wish to spell and/or pronounce his name), Poland, Lithuania and the Union on one hand and say Elizabeth II, England, Scotland, UK, Canada and Commonwealt on Nations on the other hand? Perhaps such comparison could lead to some more reasonable discussion, or at least let silly little people like myself understand the subject better. SWojczyszyn 14:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
)
Calgacus, perhaps you might want to take a look at the list above before you write such nonsense again. Or perhaps there is something I'm missing? Perhaps it's the criteria for being a serious historian you adopt... Besides, Jogaila remained and overlord of Lithuania, as well as Siewierz, Chernigov, Czerwień, and many more places. Yet, he was a king of only one state. Poland. // Halibu tt 08:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not want to hurt anyone's feeling but the new name is rediculous. To the world this fellow is best known as Wladislaw or Ladislaus Jagiello not Jogaila. Ok, I know that his birthname was Jogaila but that's not the case. Wikipedia articles should be named the same way as the specific person is best known or the world. And any nationalist mumbo-jumbo can not change that.
For example. The article about Marie Curie is entitled Marie Curie, not Maria Sklodowska. Maria Sklodowska was that lady's birthname but to the world she is best known as Marie Curie.
Also article about boxer Muhammad Ali is entitled Muhammad Ali though that guy's borthname was Cassius Clay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.40.169.244 ( talk • contribs)
Don't want to hurt your feelings anonymous editor, but rediculous is ridiculous in English. Furthermore, down the block from me here in Chicago, is a great High School, and it's name is Marie Sklodowska Curie, in Big Letters. Why don't you spend a little time at the Ołtarz Wita Stwosza, and change it to the Altar of Veit Stoss? Or might it hurt somebody's feelings? I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that, right? Dr. Dan 03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Google resolves such discussions. Try Jogaila - how many English language entries (outside .lt) will you get? Altar of Veit Stoss exists. Xx236 08:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a fact not theory - I sincerely doubt, that many of English researchers have been working with original documents on GDl, Crown or Commonwealth history, rather than reciting Polish works. Now, as Iron Curtain does not exist any more, they do have a broader access to Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian research, and have possibility evaluate different POV's based on research and evaluate theyr arguments. It seems that this argumentation is reasonable, as modern English historians seem to accept it.-- Lokyz 20:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
to make this arising time waste discusion shorter - if you're lazy to reread archives -let me cite already few times cited statement. Here you go: "Here's a paste (actually, a paste of a paste), Rowell's Lithuania Ascending gives him his name as Jogaila. Christiansen's The Northern Crusades refers to him as always as Jogaila (with Wladyslaw IV, k. of Poland, in brackets in the index ... next to Jogaila!) ... Norman Davies' Europe: A History lists our ruler in the index as Jogaila ... he uses only Jogaila in Europe: A History END PASTE John France's The Crusades And The Expansion Of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714 (2004). The New Cambridge Medieval History also uses Jogaila, but we might note that the older version of the latter, The Cambridge Medieval History (1911), uses Jagiello. So, Marrtel, if you "have not seen any proper English text call this king as Jogaila", I suggest you buy some proper scholarly books written recently, rather than relying on crap sources. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)" recited by-- Lokyz 20:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Would you please name the historians or their works? 'much English' isn't precise. Is there any example that Wikipedia prefers academical rather than common opinion? I don't know - I'm asking.
If the agenda is to be politically correct - Jogaila ruled mostly Ruthenians, so rather Ruthenian than his court's opinion is valid. Xx236 13:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I do look and I find a survey against Jogaila. So you can do everything, because you want to. Xx236 14:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Guys, you're not going to convince each other this way. We need either more third party opinions or a properly organised survey/voting. -- Lysy talk 21:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Something which is not directly related to Jogaila... but which is related to our discussion with other wikipedians, including the almost nuclear war above. Hm.. Halibutt, Piotrus, Molobo etc.. look at this:
"The teaching of functions in English also presents the teacher of Polish or Japanese students with certain problems. Polish people tend to be quite blunt and like to get straight to the point. Opinions are stated more forcibly than in English and the Poles do not make as much use of expressions such as 'I feel' or 'I think' as we do. Whereas English favours the use of understatement e.g. 'It wasn't your best exam this year' a Pole would probably say 'You've failed'. This directness often leaves a native speaker of English feeling offended although this clearly has not been the intention of the Polish person."
"When requesting, Polish people generally use imperatives rather than indirect questions and therefore come across as sounding rather aggressive. Students here find our varying degrees of politeness when apologising, complaining etc. rather amusing as they do not see the need for so much padding. This is not to say that Polish has no polite forms because it does but not quite the range that English has. The Japanese, on the other hand, are the opposite feeling the need to apologise over and over again or to precede requests with expressions such as 'I'm really sorry to have to ask you this but...'. It is vital for us as teachers to be aware of these social norms and to decide how much attention we should give to ' the English way of doing things'."
Are we really sound impolite and offending to our ENglish friends?! Szopen 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
All right ladies and gentlemen, a month has passed since someone moved this article against consensus to the place it is now. I see two options now:
I would strongly encourage everyone to support the first option, as it seems the most sensible, at least to me. Also, some of the supporters of the current name claim that it reflects consensus, despite the fact that they form but a minority of those who voted. But what the heck, if they claim that the current name is ok, then why not put it up for voting to check whether it indeed was ok to forge a voting and move the article from its original title? // Halibu tt 08:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid we will have to vote on those two propositions first. Yes, the vote was not a proper RM, but I am afraid proposition 1 will not receive consensus - as those few who supported Jogaila and managed to pull of the minority move will now continie to do everything possible to avoid a clear RM which would easily prove Jogaila has no majority support. On the other hand, perhaps a simple RM to Władysław II Jagiello (which I think is the best name) would solve the problem?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
What I suggest is stop waisting time and energy on un-doing and then re-doing and then lawering around and writing 300kb talk pages in the process. Take a clean start, wipe off whatever happened. If Jogaila is really controversial, not popular, not proper, supported only by a small minority (who miracously pulled of the move) name, then I don't see why you labor that much and don't simply held a proper RM from right where it is right now. Renata 11:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Since this article's been moved to a new name in violation of proper procedures, I believe we should settle the matter this way or another. Constant bragging on the talk page apparently leads us nowhere, so perhaps it's high time we made some move. Ideally this article should be moved back to its original name, as there was no consensus to move it here in the first place, and then a proper WP:RM procedure could be held. However, we could let it stay here for a while and still hold the vote to confirm (or not) the move from its original title to the current name. The latter option might be misleading to those taking part in the voting, but would have a merit of not stirring too much emotions on all sides involved. I added a proper RM tag yesterday, but it was removed by Calgacus without explanation, so perhaps it would be easier if I asked the rest of us to state their views here. Alternatively, we could report the move to RfC or Arbcom or some other wiki authority, and only then hold a WP:RM voting, but that would be just a longer way to do the same.
Whatever the choice is, I'm currently working on expanding and sourcing this article. Let me know if you want to know where is my temporary page located. // Halibu tt 18:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear from the Elonka's mate poll that people want a break from this nonsense. 8 people voted on moving back to Wladyslaw, 15 saying don't move anything and have a break. I think that's what we should really do. P.S. someone, archive this page, please. Renata 20:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
All the Wikipedia with all or references is at our hand, I'm not "call me for an answer" serwice.-- Lokyz 01:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
At one point you might be right. But as I've told you before - simple math does not count. There is a fact that, Jogaila simply let Vytautas (who didn' have no son) to rule Lithuania. As one of my friends from studies says(he has a scientific degree), they both played unbelievable interesting check-mat party. And Jogaila and Vytautas have lost (almost) of all theyr brothers by exchanging them for power. You might look to what's left of Algirdas and Kestusi sons. It's reaaly amazing, that Vytautas went to Grunwald, after what they have done to each other. And no - at the time there were no Poles or Lithunians, who did mater - there were two Great Lithuanian born man who did play teyr game. not necessary check. And they both have won. They're cosidered as a two different nations heros. Altough I'm beggining to belive that whithout one there would not be another. So my a bit OR suggestion - if you wold accept Vytautas as a King, you'd have Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Just kidding of course, with a tongue in the cheek:) -- Lokyz 01:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
First we can stop putting inflammatory, unnecessary, "opinions" that cannot be verified and make no difference to the specific argument. Balcer, I did not protest the original insertion of the above remark of yours, because it was sufficiently negated by others (specifically Piotrus), and I do not feel that everyone has to comment on everybody else's comments, over and over. You know like the the brilliant comment, "ditto" that's quite popular. Please be assured that I was by know means outraged by your statement, Surprised, amused, and now bored maybe. Surprised because you typically are not known for such "gems". My problem with the remark is one can not judge the importance or power of these states by 21st century standards, and serves no purpose other than being inflammatory. It's like if I said Jogaila, the Polish ruler of Lithuanian ancestry, who formed the greatest dynasty in Poland's medieval and pre-Renaissance history, put their house in order. And when this Lithuanian established order ended, typical chaos returned. Or better still, Pilsudki, the Polish leader of Lithuanian ancestry, created modern Poland, and when he died the usually bałagan returned. Even if absurd remarks like those were completely true (because some parts are), I would oppose them as infammatory. Oh, and regarding Halibutt's remark that he ruled Poland unopposed, the article ambiguouly states that he ruled by default. That hardly seems true, and creates the perception that his rule was tolerated, but grudgingly so. Dr. Dan 13:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I know quite well which point you were referring too, and I said it was addressed by Piotrus sufficiently to my satifaction. Obviously the fact that I did not "protest" as well, or chime in, at that time, did not satisfy you. In spite of it ending as it should have, since IMO it's irrelevant, you chose to bring it up again. No favoritism for ones "own" side, no "anathemas", "otherwise", from me. Regarding the Polish leaders of Lithuanian heritage, too bad you think my disclaimer is not sincere from attempting to inflame this discussion, instead of it being a ridiculous example, on the level of your own interjection of a moot point, that I consider inflammatory. BTW, I'm truly glad on the international level, that relations between the two former partners of the PLC are good, and their leaders probably don't read these talk pages. Dr. Dan 01:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Not a problem, Balcer. I respect you as an intelligent, and fair contributor to the Wikipedia project. We all have our bad moments, I am as guilty as anyone else. Cheers. Dr. Dan 02:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
By no means am I an expert in the field (which btw makes me probably more statistical readed of this article than most of people taking part in this discussion), but I thought it could be useful to consider some analogies. Could someone who has adequate knowledge draw a comparison between Jagiello (however you wish to spell and/or pronounce his name), Poland, Lithuania and the Union on one hand and say Elizabeth II, England, Scotland, UK, Canada and Commonwealt on Nations on the other hand? Perhaps such comparison could lead to some more reasonable discussion, or at least let silly little people like myself understand the subject better. SWojczyszyn 14:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
)
Calgacus, perhaps you might want to take a look at the list above before you write such nonsense again. Or perhaps there is something I'm missing? Perhaps it's the criteria for being a serious historian you adopt... Besides, Jogaila remained and overlord of Lithuania, as well as Siewierz, Chernigov, Czerwień, and many more places. Yet, he was a king of only one state. Poland. // Halibu tt 08:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I do not want to hurt anyone's feeling but the new name is rediculous. To the world this fellow is best known as Wladislaw or Ladislaus Jagiello not Jogaila. Ok, I know that his birthname was Jogaila but that's not the case. Wikipedia articles should be named the same way as the specific person is best known or the world. And any nationalist mumbo-jumbo can not change that.
For example. The article about Marie Curie is entitled Marie Curie, not Maria Sklodowska. Maria Sklodowska was that lady's birthname but to the world she is best known as Marie Curie.
Also article about boxer Muhammad Ali is entitled Muhammad Ali though that guy's borthname was Cassius Clay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.40.169.244 ( talk • contribs)
Don't want to hurt your feelings anonymous editor, but rediculous is ridiculous in English. Furthermore, down the block from me here in Chicago, is a great High School, and it's name is Marie Sklodowska Curie, in Big Letters. Why don't you spend a little time at the Ołtarz Wita Stwosza, and change it to the Altar of Veit Stoss? Or might it hurt somebody's feelings? I'm sure you wouldn't want to do that, right? Dr. Dan 03:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Google resolves such discussions. Try Jogaila - how many English language entries (outside .lt) will you get? Altar of Veit Stoss exists. Xx236 08:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a fact not theory - I sincerely doubt, that many of English researchers have been working with original documents on GDl, Crown or Commonwealth history, rather than reciting Polish works. Now, as Iron Curtain does not exist any more, they do have a broader access to Lithuanian, Belarusian and Ukrainian research, and have possibility evaluate different POV's based on research and evaluate theyr arguments. It seems that this argumentation is reasonable, as modern English historians seem to accept it.-- Lokyz 20:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
to make this arising time waste discusion shorter - if you're lazy to reread archives -let me cite already few times cited statement. Here you go: "Here's a paste (actually, a paste of a paste), Rowell's Lithuania Ascending gives him his name as Jogaila. Christiansen's The Northern Crusades refers to him as always as Jogaila (with Wladyslaw IV, k. of Poland, in brackets in the index ... next to Jogaila!) ... Norman Davies' Europe: A History lists our ruler in the index as Jogaila ... he uses only Jogaila in Europe: A History END PASTE John France's The Crusades And The Expansion Of Catholic Christendom, 1000-1714 (2004). The New Cambridge Medieval History also uses Jogaila, but we might note that the older version of the latter, The Cambridge Medieval History (1911), uses Jagiello. So, Marrtel, if you "have not seen any proper English text call this king as Jogaila", I suggest you buy some proper scholarly books written recently, rather than relying on crap sources. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)" recited by-- Lokyz 20:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Would you please name the historians or their works? 'much English' isn't precise. Is there any example that Wikipedia prefers academical rather than common opinion? I don't know - I'm asking.
If the agenda is to be politically correct - Jogaila ruled mostly Ruthenians, so rather Ruthenian than his court's opinion is valid. Xx236 13:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I do look and I find a survey against Jogaila. So you can do everything, because you want to. Xx236 14:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Guys, you're not going to convince each other this way. We need either more third party opinions or a properly organised survey/voting. -- Lysy talk 21:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Something which is not directly related to Jogaila... but which is related to our discussion with other wikipedians, including the almost nuclear war above. Hm.. Halibutt, Piotrus, Molobo etc.. look at this:
"The teaching of functions in English also presents the teacher of Polish or Japanese students with certain problems. Polish people tend to be quite blunt and like to get straight to the point. Opinions are stated more forcibly than in English and the Poles do not make as much use of expressions such as 'I feel' or 'I think' as we do. Whereas English favours the use of understatement e.g. 'It wasn't your best exam this year' a Pole would probably say 'You've failed'. This directness often leaves a native speaker of English feeling offended although this clearly has not been the intention of the Polish person."
"When requesting, Polish people generally use imperatives rather than indirect questions and therefore come across as sounding rather aggressive. Students here find our varying degrees of politeness when apologising, complaining etc. rather amusing as they do not see the need for so much padding. This is not to say that Polish has no polite forms because it does but not quite the range that English has. The Japanese, on the other hand, are the opposite feeling the need to apologise over and over again or to precede requests with expressions such as 'I'm really sorry to have to ask you this but...'. It is vital for us as teachers to be aware of these social norms and to decide how much attention we should give to ' the English way of doing things'."
Are we really sound impolite and offending to our ENglish friends?! Szopen 15:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
All right ladies and gentlemen, a month has passed since someone moved this article against consensus to the place it is now. I see two options now:
I would strongly encourage everyone to support the first option, as it seems the most sensible, at least to me. Also, some of the supporters of the current name claim that it reflects consensus, despite the fact that they form but a minority of those who voted. But what the heck, if they claim that the current name is ok, then why not put it up for voting to check whether it indeed was ok to forge a voting and move the article from its original title? // Halibu tt 08:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid we will have to vote on those two propositions first. Yes, the vote was not a proper RM, but I am afraid proposition 1 will not receive consensus - as those few who supported Jogaila and managed to pull of the minority move will now continie to do everything possible to avoid a clear RM which would easily prove Jogaila has no majority support. On the other hand, perhaps a simple RM to Władysław II Jagiello (which I think is the best name) would solve the problem?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
What I suggest is stop waisting time and energy on un-doing and then re-doing and then lawering around and writing 300kb talk pages in the process. Take a clean start, wipe off whatever happened. If Jogaila is really controversial, not popular, not proper, supported only by a small minority (who miracously pulled of the move) name, then I don't see why you labor that much and don't simply held a proper RM from right where it is right now. Renata 11:49, 2 September 2006 (UTC)