![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Voisava Kastrioti article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5Auto-archiving period: 93 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@
AlexBachmann You added a source with the relevant quote; "While staying at Chilandar , one of his four sons , Reposh , died , and was buried in King Milutin's narthex , beside the north wall"
. Thus, I don't quite see how that explains Repoš retiring and having his burial explicitly on the Albanian tower? As far as I am aware, King Milutin's narthex was not located in that part of the Hilander monastery.
--Azor (
talk).
09:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Ivan was devoutly Orthodox, having donated a tower in the Serbian monastery. His son Reposh died at Hilandar as an Orthodox monk.As far as I can see, the only content about Voisava from the source is an explanation of her roots; "Ivan had married a Serbian noblewoman, likely from the Brankovic dynasty..". The donation to Hilandar isn't explained to have anything to do with Voisava (which this biography-related article is about) nor any of her children. While I understand you wish to expand this article, but try to do so without original research and going off topic. Sometimes, simple is better. --Azor ( talk). 21:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
The name was in use among Albanian nobility, Karl Thopia and Gjergj Arianiti both had daughters named Voisava and does not refer to a particular ethnic originis not WP:UNDUE. It is explicitly discussed by the source in connection to the subject of the article. If Azor asks for this statement to be removed, then there is no reason why the statement
The name Voisava is a feminine rendition of the Slavic name Vojislav from voj (war, struggle) and slava (fame, glory)won't be removed because unlike the first one, the sentence about the name's etymology is not discussed in bibliography in relation to this subject. It can be removed because it is just a wiktionary entry.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Only the pages from 272 to 302 are Giovanni's (Gjon Muzaka's); the other pages are from a confused genealogy by one Andrea Angelo Comneno and a fragment of Spanduginos' History, which Giovanni's son Costantino reproduces, cf. Chroniques gréco-romanes, 1873, p. XXXV. Also page 313 quotes Pope Pius; so Gjon Muzaka does not say "Tribali overo Misii ch hoggi se nominano Serviani"! @ Maleschreiber, @ AzorzaI, @ ShockedSkater. Ungjited ( talk) 02:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
[1] ShockedSkater ( talk) 18:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Hi @ AzorzaI, please point out which source says "most scholars" and remember to include a quote. As far as I can see, the next reference after that claim is cited to Noli, who wrote his work in 1947. Is there a recent source which states that most 21st century or late 20th century scholars consider her to be of Slavic origin? If not, such a statement is not supported by sources and should be changed. Botushali ( talk) 00:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Are you changing 'most' to 'many' because you have a source that specifically uses 'many'?- ok, no worries, we can change it to “some scholars” since there is no source that says “most” or “many”. Meanwhile, the article has some sources listed which support a Slavic origin, although not enough to say “most” or “many”. Botushali ( talk) 04:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
"phrases such as those above present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint". In this article, all available sources, both early and modern, are presented to the readers. This ensures that the reader has the opportunity to assess the sources of the different viewpoints presented. Therefore, the wording "most" does not require an additional source. Definition of most: the biggest number or amount of; more than anything or anyone else . In previous discussions, editors examined various sources and concluded that the majority supported a South Slavic origin. --Azor ( talk). 09:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
"Most people think" is acceptable only when supported by at least one published survey.I have experienced several content disputes about such cases, and if a source does not support that specific strong wording, then it cannot be used. In this case the content can be neutrally reworded without original research as a number of scholars. – Βατο ( talk) 10:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@ Ktrimi991 In medieval times, nationality was linked to family names and local culture rather than modern concepts. The author uses "nationality" to stress that a name alone does not define family background or ethnicity. While Voisava's name might suggest Serbian ethnicity, "nationality" better reflects legal status. For instance, by using Voisava Thopia's father, Karl Thopia, as an example, the author illustrates that medieval nationality was tied to paternal lineage and legal status. The oversight of her mother, Vojislava Balsic, underscores the importance of paternal lineage. Therefore, the author’s use of "nationality" is accurate and should not be altered based on modern or personal interpretations.
To simplify with an example: although medieval noble Albanians might have used Slavic names, this was typically seen among those who had been assimilated or heavily influenced by Slavic culture, indicating a Slavic-leaning ethnicity. However, their nationality - reflecting the legal status inherited from their lands - would remain Albanian. Ethnicity is more than just descent and is more complex than some might think. "Simplifying" it for readers, if that's your aim, could do more harm than good. --Azor ( talk). 20:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
To simplify with an example: although medieval noble Albanians might have used Slavic names, this was typically seen among those who had been assimilated or heavily influenced by Slavic culture, indicating a Slavic-leaning ethnicity. Unless you have a reliable, academic source for that, it is your own conclusion. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 07:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Voisava Kastrioti article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3,
4,
5Auto-archiving period: 93 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
@
AlexBachmann You added a source with the relevant quote; "While staying at Chilandar , one of his four sons , Reposh , died , and was buried in King Milutin's narthex , beside the north wall"
. Thus, I don't quite see how that explains Repoš retiring and having his burial explicitly on the Albanian tower? As far as I am aware, King Milutin's narthex was not located in that part of the Hilander monastery.
--Azor (
talk).
09:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Ivan was devoutly Orthodox, having donated a tower in the Serbian monastery. His son Reposh died at Hilandar as an Orthodox monk.As far as I can see, the only content about Voisava from the source is an explanation of her roots; "Ivan had married a Serbian noblewoman, likely from the Brankovic dynasty..". The donation to Hilandar isn't explained to have anything to do with Voisava (which this biography-related article is about) nor any of her children. While I understand you wish to expand this article, but try to do so without original research and going off topic. Sometimes, simple is better. --Azor ( talk). 21:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
The name was in use among Albanian nobility, Karl Thopia and Gjergj Arianiti both had daughters named Voisava and does not refer to a particular ethnic originis not WP:UNDUE. It is explicitly discussed by the source in connection to the subject of the article. If Azor asks for this statement to be removed, then there is no reason why the statement
The name Voisava is a feminine rendition of the Slavic name Vojislav from voj (war, struggle) and slava (fame, glory)won't be removed because unlike the first one, the sentence about the name's etymology is not discussed in bibliography in relation to this subject. It can be removed because it is just a wiktionary entry.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 13:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Only the pages from 272 to 302 are Giovanni's (Gjon Muzaka's); the other pages are from a confused genealogy by one Andrea Angelo Comneno and a fragment of Spanduginos' History, which Giovanni's son Costantino reproduces, cf. Chroniques gréco-romanes, 1873, p. XXXV. Also page 313 quotes Pope Pius; so Gjon Muzaka does not say "Tribali overo Misii ch hoggi se nominano Serviani"! @ Maleschreiber, @ AzorzaI, @ ShockedSkater. Ungjited ( talk) 02:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
[1] ShockedSkater ( talk) 18:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
Hi @ AzorzaI, please point out which source says "most scholars" and remember to include a quote. As far as I can see, the next reference after that claim is cited to Noli, who wrote his work in 1947. Is there a recent source which states that most 21st century or late 20th century scholars consider her to be of Slavic origin? If not, such a statement is not supported by sources and should be changed. Botushali ( talk) 00:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Are you changing 'most' to 'many' because you have a source that specifically uses 'many'?- ok, no worries, we can change it to “some scholars” since there is no source that says “most” or “many”. Meanwhile, the article has some sources listed which support a Slavic origin, although not enough to say “most” or “many”. Botushali ( talk) 04:19, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
"phrases such as those above present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint". In this article, all available sources, both early and modern, are presented to the readers. This ensures that the reader has the opportunity to assess the sources of the different viewpoints presented. Therefore, the wording "most" does not require an additional source. Definition of most: the biggest number or amount of; more than anything or anyone else . In previous discussions, editors examined various sources and concluded that the majority supported a South Slavic origin. --Azor ( talk). 09:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
"Most people think" is acceptable only when supported by at least one published survey.I have experienced several content disputes about such cases, and if a source does not support that specific strong wording, then it cannot be used. In this case the content can be neutrally reworded without original research as a number of scholars. – Βατο ( talk) 10:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@ Ktrimi991 In medieval times, nationality was linked to family names and local culture rather than modern concepts. The author uses "nationality" to stress that a name alone does not define family background or ethnicity. While Voisava's name might suggest Serbian ethnicity, "nationality" better reflects legal status. For instance, by using Voisava Thopia's father, Karl Thopia, as an example, the author illustrates that medieval nationality was tied to paternal lineage and legal status. The oversight of her mother, Vojislava Balsic, underscores the importance of paternal lineage. Therefore, the author’s use of "nationality" is accurate and should not be altered based on modern or personal interpretations.
To simplify with an example: although medieval noble Albanians might have used Slavic names, this was typically seen among those who had been assimilated or heavily influenced by Slavic culture, indicating a Slavic-leaning ethnicity. However, their nationality - reflecting the legal status inherited from their lands - would remain Albanian. Ethnicity is more than just descent and is more complex than some might think. "Simplifying" it for readers, if that's your aim, could do more harm than good. --Azor ( talk). 20:27, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
To simplify with an example: although medieval noble Albanians might have used Slavic names, this was typically seen among those who had been assimilated or heavily influenced by Slavic culture, indicating a Slavic-leaning ethnicity. Unless you have a reliable, academic source for that, it is your own conclusion. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 07:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)