Visayans was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 28, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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This article is written in Philippine English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, realize, center, travelled) and some terms that are used in it (including jeepney and cyberlibel) may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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On 25 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Bisaya. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Hello! Hope you could help by putting some pictures. These might look good on the article: 1. Geopolitical Map of the Visayas 2. Linguistic Map of Binisaya-speaking areas 3. The baptism of Rajah Humabon (that painting in Sto. Nino Church) 4. The Sto. Nino 5. Pedro Calungsod 6. Graciano Lopez-Jaena 7. Leon Kilat 8. Gen. Maxilom 9. Lapu-lapu killing Magellan 10. Sergio Osmena 11. Carlos Garcia -- Nino Gonzales 16:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, the statement below: The Bisaya all refer to their respective languages as Binisaya. Binisaya literally means "the way of the Bisaya" and is used to refer to bisaya-style cooking and indigenous herbal medicine, aside from the languages. ...is dubious. I speak Bisaya (Cebuano). I can't recall anyone calling our native tonque as Binisaya. It's simply Bisaya (accent to the last syllable). 2) Maybe it means "the way of the Bisaya" but to my ears and to my co-Bisaya acquantances it sounds more like a made-up language (in the past tense) literally "being Bisayaned". Something like Tagalog becoming "Tinagalog".
This section is dubious and unclear, the whole of it. Bisaya however is an ethnic rather than a linguistic identity. One is not a Bisaya because the language one speaks is Binisiya. It is the other way around; the language one speaks is Binisaya because one is Bisaya What does it exactly mean? (For clarity, I'll use the distinction of Bisaya the ethnicity and Binisaya the language) I'm sure it's the other way around. I know that we Bisaya acknowledge and embrace anyone who speak Binisaya natively anywhere in the country as Bisaya; so that on the contrary, one is Bisaya because he/she can speak Binisaya. The language one speaks is Binisaya no matter where you are either in the Visayas or in Mindanao. Thus Bisaya is a linguistic identity. I think all of us Filipinos go into ethnolinguistic lines so that the distinction between the speaker and the spoken language is blurred. Just like say, Tagalog, one is ethnically Tagalog because he/she speaks it natively. Visayans do not discriminate. Jordz
Hello,
WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.
I rated the Bisaya article: Start-Class, with the following comments (see link to ratings summary page in the Ethnic groups template atop this talk page):
You can give this article (and any other article within the WikiProject) a rating, as described below.
Revisions of assessment ratings can be made by assigning an appropriate value via the class parameter in the WikiProject Ethnic groups project banner {{ Ethnic groups}} that is currently placed at the top of Ethnic groups articles' talk pages. Quality assessment guidelines are at the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system page. After rating the article, please provide a short summary to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses. To add the summary, please edit this article's ratings summary page. A link to this page can be found in the {{ Ethnic groups}} template on the article's talk page.
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Thanks!
--
Ling.Nut 14:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. Did the Bisaya arrive in the Philippines as one people who eventually fractured into the different linguistic groups that they are today, or are they really separate ethnic groups who came to form their Bisaya identity based on geography (that is, they became the Bisaya because they lived in the Visayas)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.171.104 ( talk) 17:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Pedrocalungsod.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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utcursch | talk 00:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This article has failed its Good article nomination. This is how the article, as of March 28, 2016, compares against the six good article criteria:
The main problem with this article is sourcing. As noted above, some of the references do not support the assertions made in the article (e.g. the ref about religion only talks about Central Visayas, not Visayans in general). A lot of the content in the article is unsourced or improperly sourced (e.g. dead links and missing page numbers). Also, the article needs to make a clear distinction between Visayans as an ethnic group or as a geographical identity -- some of the content seems to be about Visayas, the geographical division, and not necessarily related only to the Visayans, the ethnic group.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far. — utcursch | talk 00:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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Ok I'll discuss it. The main problem here is the reliance on sources that are not WP:RS. Blogs, mystery books, and elementary/high school textbooks are not academic literature. Papers from the early to mid-20th century that have never gained widespread acceptance but are being treated as if they have is not WP:DUE either. That's not even mentioning the sources that do not verify any of the things written, and just seem to be attached randomly to the sentences, something also mentioned by the GA reviewer in 2016.
{{
cite news}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)They all need to be rewritten from WP:NPOV and WP:RS. The Sri Vijayan accounts can be mentioned, but it should NOT be presented as if it's the mainstream accepted hypothesis because it's not. It's authenticity rests on very very shaky ground. As a Visayan, it's a bit insulting (not to mention a bit pathetic) how some people want us to be something other than we are. As if to be "noble" we have to be Malays or Javanese, both alien cultures, while disregarding our own cultural uniqueness.
Now until those can be addressed, I will remove all text claiming we are Sri Vijayans. I may expand this myself later on. But I'm too busy rewriting the Austronesian peoples article at the moment. -- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 21:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, the origin of the word “Bisaya” is a murky one in scholarship. Perhaps we should refrain posting about it until the academic circle makes a decision on it, as proposed by Obsidian. Also, I managed to download Pangan’s preview pdf (Church of the Far-East) a while back (I forgot it was stored in my hard disk) that was linked and referenced here from archives.org before it got taken down. See a screenshot here (I’m not planning on uploading or disseminating it lest I get sued, probably going to delete it afterwards as it has no use for me). Seems like he indeed made the categorization and terminology [Sugbu Visyans, Madja-as Visayans] drawing from the cultures, languages and recorded history, which is appreciated. It annoys me to no end that even some reputable works describe the Visayans as a single ethnolinguistic group, despite the obvious differences. While he seemed to err in the Sri-Vijayan connection (I don’t blame him, really), I think it’s better retain the categorizations part, as others seem to perpetuate another error. TigSulath ( talk) 06:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I think the categorization seems justifiable for me. For example, Pangan draws his categorization of Sugbu Visayans [1] from the fact that the island of Cebu, Bohol, eastern part of Negros, Samar and Leyte belonged to an ethnic group called by the Spaniards as Pintados. [2] He coined the term Sugbu Visayans since the Cebuano language spread from Cebu to the mentioned islands thereby establishing the Cebuano dialects and Pangan cites John U. Wolf, a linguistics scholar for that. [3]
The cultural affinities of these people are mentioned by Pedro Chirino [4], a crew of Legazpi named Rodriguez, and Pigafetta described the people of parts of Leyte, Samar and Cebu as tattooed. [5] Pigafetta also recorded their language which is basically the Cebuano language. [6]
Chirino also notices the distinction of the people from Western Negros and Panay—that they spoke a different language and did not practice tattooing like the Pintados. [7] Some Spaniards called those from Panay and Western Negros as Bisaya, obviously distinct from the Pintados. From this, Pangan (I assume) draws the distinction with the shared culture of Panay and Western Negros with that of Cebu, Bohol, Leyte and parts of Samar (hence, his categorization). A distinction that was lost or overlapped the following centuries during colonization, and still persists today. Some describes the entire Visayas as Islas de Bisaya, others like Aguado calls them Islas de Pintados. [8] Until the confusion turned people of all the Visayas into one ethnolinguistic group. That is why (as I mentioned before) I appreciate the categorization.
With all those being said, if we decide that Pangan or his work is unreliable, it would be fair to just delete the categorizations entirely as Damonenjager suggests or work another categorization as proposed by Obsidian Soul. If we decide for it stay then credit the author. As far as I can read from scholarly works, I have not come across those who made such distinction. That's all I can say here. TigSulath ( talk) 02:47, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for doing this. This nonsense has been oft-repeated in other related pages and being passed on as facts. I will remove and edit them systemically when I have more time but I will link to this particular section of your talk page to the respective talk pages of the articles as you conveniently listed all the reasons why these statements should not belong on those pages. Much appreciated. Chicbicyclist ( talk) 03:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: No consensus. ( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 14:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Visayans →
Bisaya –
Original name.
Name used in the CIA Factbook.
How the group self-identifies should be considered.
Neutrality: Some of its members are from
Mindanao so the geographic demonym "Visayan" isn't that appropriate.
Shhhhwwww!! (
talk) 07:08, 27 December 2019 (UTC)—Relisting.
Dekimasu
よ! 09:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
List of sources (JSTOR 2014 - present) I have entered the search terms "Bisaya" and "Visayans" in JSTOR, sorted by "newest", and opened every citation to verify whether it is relevant for WP:ENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. I have left out all citations which only had a quote from older sources, all non-English language sources, and all instances where the search term did not refer to the ethnic group (e.g. "Bisaya" for the languages). Being lazy, I have only gone back to 2014, so the count still might be within the range of variance, and not yet representative.
Visayans (5 counts)
Bisaya (3 counts)
Bisayans (1 counts)
Note that Bulloch (2016) uses both, but explicitly labels "Visayan" as the English them. Based on this initial count, I stick to my "Mild oppose"-votum. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:10, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 12:41, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
I suggest you need a upgrade for your website 🙂 You need to add a voice clip with the words you are typing in. 136.158.3.32 ( talk) 13:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:37, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 20:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Visayans → Bisaya – To be consistent with Bisayan languages The term is also used in English. Showiecz ( talk) 18:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 13 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alvin Engo ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by TheWatTyler ( talk) 08:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
Visayans was nominated as a Social sciences and society good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 28, 2016). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Visayans article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in Philippine English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, realize, center, travelled) and some terms that are used in it (including jeepney and cyberlibel) may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 25 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Bisaya. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Hello! Hope you could help by putting some pictures. These might look good on the article: 1. Geopolitical Map of the Visayas 2. Linguistic Map of Binisaya-speaking areas 3. The baptism of Rajah Humabon (that painting in Sto. Nino Church) 4. The Sto. Nino 5. Pedro Calungsod 6. Graciano Lopez-Jaena 7. Leon Kilat 8. Gen. Maxilom 9. Lapu-lapu killing Magellan 10. Sergio Osmena 11. Carlos Garcia -- Nino Gonzales 16:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, the statement below: The Bisaya all refer to their respective languages as Binisaya. Binisaya literally means "the way of the Bisaya" and is used to refer to bisaya-style cooking and indigenous herbal medicine, aside from the languages. ...is dubious. I speak Bisaya (Cebuano). I can't recall anyone calling our native tonque as Binisaya. It's simply Bisaya (accent to the last syllable). 2) Maybe it means "the way of the Bisaya" but to my ears and to my co-Bisaya acquantances it sounds more like a made-up language (in the past tense) literally "being Bisayaned". Something like Tagalog becoming "Tinagalog".
This section is dubious and unclear, the whole of it. Bisaya however is an ethnic rather than a linguistic identity. One is not a Bisaya because the language one speaks is Binisiya. It is the other way around; the language one speaks is Binisaya because one is Bisaya What does it exactly mean? (For clarity, I'll use the distinction of Bisaya the ethnicity and Binisaya the language) I'm sure it's the other way around. I know that we Bisaya acknowledge and embrace anyone who speak Binisaya natively anywhere in the country as Bisaya; so that on the contrary, one is Bisaya because he/she can speak Binisaya. The language one speaks is Binisaya no matter where you are either in the Visayas or in Mindanao. Thus Bisaya is a linguistic identity. I think all of us Filipinos go into ethnolinguistic lines so that the distinction between the speaker and the spoken language is blurred. Just like say, Tagalog, one is ethnically Tagalog because he/she speaks it natively. Visayans do not discriminate. Jordz
Hello,
WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.
I rated the Bisaya article: Start-Class, with the following comments (see link to ratings summary page in the Ethnic groups template atop this talk page):
You can give this article (and any other article within the WikiProject) a rating, as described below.
Revisions of assessment ratings can be made by assigning an appropriate value via the class parameter in the WikiProject Ethnic groups project banner {{ Ethnic groups}} that is currently placed at the top of Ethnic groups articles' talk pages. Quality assessment guidelines are at the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system page. After rating the article, please provide a short summary to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses. To add the summary, please edit this article's ratings summary page. A link to this page can be found in the {{ Ethnic groups}} template on the article's talk page.
Please see the Project's article rating and assessment scheme for more information and the details and criteria for each rating value. A brief version can be found at Template talk:Ethnic groups. You can also enquire at the Ethnic groups Project's main discussion board for assistance.
Another way to help out that could be an enjoyable pastime is to visit Category:Unassessed Ethnic groups articles, find an interesting-looking article to read, and carefully assess it following those guidelines.
Thanks!
--
Ling.Nut 14:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. Did the Bisaya arrive in the Philippines as one people who eventually fractured into the different linguistic groups that they are today, or are they really separate ethnic groups who came to form their Bisaya identity based on geography (that is, they became the Bisaya because they lived in the Visayas)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.213.171.104 ( talk) 17:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Image:Pedrocalungsod.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
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utcursch | talk 00:14, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
This article has failed its Good article nomination. This is how the article, as of March 28, 2016, compares against the six good article criteria:
The main problem with this article is sourcing. As noted above, some of the references do not support the assertions made in the article (e.g. the ref about religion only talks about Central Visayas, not Visayans in general). A lot of the content in the article is unsourced or improperly sourced (e.g. dead links and missing page numbers). Also, the article needs to make a clear distinction between Visayans as an ethnic group or as a geographical identity -- some of the content seems to be about Visayas, the geographical division, and not necessarily related only to the Visayans, the ethnic group.
When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to have it reassessed. Thank you for your work so far. — utcursch | talk 00:58, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
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Ok I'll discuss it. The main problem here is the reliance on sources that are not WP:RS. Blogs, mystery books, and elementary/high school textbooks are not academic literature. Papers from the early to mid-20th century that have never gained widespread acceptance but are being treated as if they have is not WP:DUE either. That's not even mentioning the sources that do not verify any of the things written, and just seem to be attached randomly to the sentences, something also mentioned by the GA reviewer in 2016.
{{
cite news}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)They all need to be rewritten from WP:NPOV and WP:RS. The Sri Vijayan accounts can be mentioned, but it should NOT be presented as if it's the mainstream accepted hypothesis because it's not. It's authenticity rests on very very shaky ground. As a Visayan, it's a bit insulting (not to mention a bit pathetic) how some people want us to be something other than we are. As if to be "noble" we have to be Malays or Javanese, both alien cultures, while disregarding our own cultural uniqueness.
Now until those can be addressed, I will remove all text claiming we are Sri Vijayans. I may expand this myself later on. But I'm too busy rewriting the Austronesian peoples article at the moment. -- OBSIDIAN† SOUL 21:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, the origin of the word “Bisaya” is a murky one in scholarship. Perhaps we should refrain posting about it until the academic circle makes a decision on it, as proposed by Obsidian. Also, I managed to download Pangan’s preview pdf (Church of the Far-East) a while back (I forgot it was stored in my hard disk) that was linked and referenced here from archives.org before it got taken down. See a screenshot here (I’m not planning on uploading or disseminating it lest I get sued, probably going to delete it afterwards as it has no use for me). Seems like he indeed made the categorization and terminology [Sugbu Visyans, Madja-as Visayans] drawing from the cultures, languages and recorded history, which is appreciated. It annoys me to no end that even some reputable works describe the Visayans as a single ethnolinguistic group, despite the obvious differences. While he seemed to err in the Sri-Vijayan connection (I don’t blame him, really), I think it’s better retain the categorizations part, as others seem to perpetuate another error. TigSulath ( talk) 06:08, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
I think the categorization seems justifiable for me. For example, Pangan draws his categorization of Sugbu Visayans [1] from the fact that the island of Cebu, Bohol, eastern part of Negros, Samar and Leyte belonged to an ethnic group called by the Spaniards as Pintados. [2] He coined the term Sugbu Visayans since the Cebuano language spread from Cebu to the mentioned islands thereby establishing the Cebuano dialects and Pangan cites John U. Wolf, a linguistics scholar for that. [3]
The cultural affinities of these people are mentioned by Pedro Chirino [4], a crew of Legazpi named Rodriguez, and Pigafetta described the people of parts of Leyte, Samar and Cebu as tattooed. [5] Pigafetta also recorded their language which is basically the Cebuano language. [6]
Chirino also notices the distinction of the people from Western Negros and Panay—that they spoke a different language and did not practice tattooing like the Pintados. [7] Some Spaniards called those from Panay and Western Negros as Bisaya, obviously distinct from the Pintados. From this, Pangan (I assume) draws the distinction with the shared culture of Panay and Western Negros with that of Cebu, Bohol, Leyte and parts of Samar (hence, his categorization). A distinction that was lost or overlapped the following centuries during colonization, and still persists today. Some describes the entire Visayas as Islas de Bisaya, others like Aguado calls them Islas de Pintados. [8] Until the confusion turned people of all the Visayas into one ethnolinguistic group. That is why (as I mentioned before) I appreciate the categorization.
With all those being said, if we decide that Pangan or his work is unreliable, it would be fair to just delete the categorizations entirely as Damonenjager suggests or work another categorization as proposed by Obsidian Soul. If we decide for it stay then credit the author. As far as I can read from scholarly works, I have not come across those who made such distinction. That's all I can say here. TigSulath ( talk) 02:47, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for doing this. This nonsense has been oft-repeated in other related pages and being passed on as facts. I will remove and edit them systemically when I have more time but I will link to this particular section of your talk page to the respective talk pages of the articles as you conveniently listed all the reasons why these statements should not belong on those pages. Much appreciated. Chicbicyclist ( talk) 03:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: No consensus. ( non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 14:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
Visayans →
Bisaya –
Original name.
Name used in the CIA Factbook.
How the group self-identifies should be considered.
Neutrality: Some of its members are from
Mindanao so the geographic demonym "Visayan" isn't that appropriate.
Shhhhwwww!! (
talk) 07:08, 27 December 2019 (UTC)—Relisting.
Dekimasu
よ! 09:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
List of sources (JSTOR 2014 - present) I have entered the search terms "Bisaya" and "Visayans" in JSTOR, sorted by "newest", and opened every citation to verify whether it is relevant for WP:ENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. I have left out all citations which only had a quote from older sources, all non-English language sources, and all instances where the search term did not refer to the ethnic group (e.g. "Bisaya" for the languages). Being lazy, I have only gone back to 2014, so the count still might be within the range of variance, and not yet representative.
Visayans (5 counts)
Bisaya (3 counts)
Bisayans (1 counts)
Note that Bulloch (2016) uses both, but explicitly labels "Visayan" as the English them. Based on this initial count, I stick to my "Mild oppose"-votum. – Austronesier ( talk) 16:38, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
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I suggest you need a upgrade for your website 🙂 You need to add a voice clip with the words you are typing in. 136.158.3.32 ( talk) 13:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 20:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Visayans → Bisaya – To be consistent with Bisayan languages The term is also used in English. Showiecz ( talk) 18:25, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 13 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alvin Engo ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by TheWatTyler ( talk) 08:14, 16 March 2024 (UTC)