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The Mayo Clinic at one time established a psychological documentation on how people felt after their first sexual experience, common difficulties, etc. This was a mainstream publication that was meant for patients. I saw this a long time ago and the data has probably changed enough to necessitate update, but if anyone can find this it could greatly contribute to the article. 64.31.188.26 00:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
A meaning then debased and used to exert control over woman by organised religons.
Anyone know of some of the origins of this idea? Would like to know more but not sure where to look.
i think there should be a disambiguation page for this article, because the the word "virgin" is likely to be refered to Virgin Group. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.130.26.25 ( talk • contribs) .
FYI, "Why I Am Not a Christian" is not a book by Bertrand Russell. It is an essay (though originally a lecture). But the writer may be referring to a book that bears a similiar title("Why I Am Not a Christian : And Other Essays on Religion and Related Subjects") that includes that essay with others.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.45.160.201 ( talk • contribs) .
Check this out, Involuntary Virginity it is not uncommon for people who want to have sex but aren't "getting laid" are suffering from extreme shyness or Social Anxiety disorder.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.199.249.47 ( talk • contribs) .
It's a rather grim topic to raise, but I wonder whether it is notable or not to mention the link between cultural perception of virginity and the practise of infibulation. This is a procedure, largely performed in sub-Saharan Africa, in which a female's (typically young girls) labia majora are sewed together, usually in some combination with female or "pharaonic" circumcision and/or clitoridotomy. The purpose of the procedure is both a cultural milestone as well as a method of enforcing female virginity before marriage. Speaking to the subject of virginity, it is notable as a method which has been used to prevent deflowering before marriage. Clearly, in such cultures virginity must be considered highly valuable, or else such customs would never have arisen. Does anyone else think this is worth mention in the article? Cheers, Kasreyn 06:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've read Dawkins on this, and he's quite likely right. My question now is precisewhy what additional material we need to add, and how we might structure it. Any ideas? Al 04:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This article definitely needs information on how the other world religions view virginity. I'd add it if I could, but I don't know much about it.-- Cúchullain t/ c 02:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Latest edit seems not to fit NPOV and the reference link is to Plain Truth Online, not the most neutral of sources. 202.156.6.54 15:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This section could potentially benefit if it were rewritten.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.229.76.39 ( talk • contribs) .
On the topic of Judaism, I think clarification is needed. The article implies that Judaism is rather lax when it comes to sex before marriage, and that this has been true for its history. However, it is basically common knowledge, thanks to the Christian Gospels, that Jewish law had provisions for the stoning of adulterers, especially the female. In fact, much of Christian law about adultery and virginity comes from texts shared by Christianity and Judaism. The Pentateuch provides many punishments for the taking of virginity, and these often can include the death penalty, especially stoning. Perhaps the law was not often enforced, but it seems to me that the fact that the death penalty was on the books as a punishment for pre-marital sex should disqualify the word "lenient" as a description of Jewish law or practice.
I went on and removed the part that said celabicy is encouraged in Christianity, particularly in the book of Matthew. This is false. The Bible, while it writes about a celebate apostle, does not encourage celebacy. It actually says to be fruitful and multiply (of course, within the bonds of marriage) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.129.5.5 ( talk • contribs) .
Sagaciousid 16:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Put it back up. Please read the following, hoping it will help. I got this from http://www.new-life.net/premarital.htm
Premarital Sex and the Bible
Sometimes you will hear people say that the Bible doesn't say anything about premarital sex. Apparently this statement is made by people who haven't read the Bible or, at least, who haven't read it thoroughly. The Bible speaks in clear language directly to the issue in both the Old and New Testaments. Here are the Biblical passages with short comments.
Old Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage
Exodus 22:16-17 If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
[If premarital sex occurs, then an Israelite male was to marry the woman he slept with - that is, assuming the father allowed the marriage.]
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
[Premarital sex is viewed as a "disgraceful thing" and "evil."]
Proverbs 5:15-21 Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love. Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
[A man's "fountain" should be saved for "the wife of [his] youth." The man is to be a virgin when he takes his wife.]
[In addition to these three Scriptures, there are 32 other verses in the Old Testament speaking about a "virgin" or "virgins." Each of these passages shows that virginity was highly cherished as the standard for God's people.]
New Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage
[When we come to the New Testament we don't have verses explicitly describing the act of premarital sex and its consequences like we do in Exodus or Deuteronomy. It is clear, however, that virginity is still the standard for unmarried Christians and that sex outside the context of marriage is still considered sin.]
1 Corinthians 6:16-18 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
[Sexual intimacy "unites" you with the other person. When this uniting of flesh happens outside of marriage, it is called "sexual immorality." One fleshness is to be limited to the one you marry. This is similar to what we saw in Exodus 22:16-17.]
1 Corinthians 7:1-2 Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. [Notice that to avoid sexual immorality outside of marriage people should marry.]
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust. [If you are struggling with wanting to have sex, get married. Premarital sex isn't an option for dealing with lust. It's either marriage or you are in sexual sin.]
Ephesians 5:31
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
[Paul is quoting from Genesis 2:24 and affirming the Old Testament standard of uniting in flesh only with your spouse. One fleshness is to happen when a man leaves his father and mother and is "united to his wife." Compare with 1 Corinthians 6:16-18.]
1 Thessalonians 4:2-8 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this manner no one should cheat his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
["Acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable" or you are in sexual immorality. Sexual sin harms others besides those who engage in it. In adultery, the spouse is always wronged. Premarital sex "cheats" the future partner by robbing him or her of the virginity that ought to be brought to marriage.]
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
[Again, it's a pure marriage bed or you are an "adulterer" or "sexually immoral."]
1 Timothy 5:2 Treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
[As a Christian man, if you are not married to her, then she is your sister (who you must treat "with absolute purity").]
1 Corinthians 7:7:28,34,36-38
[Note in these verses how virginity is assumed for unmarried women living in Christian homes. This is the same thing as we saw in the Old Testament. Virginity was the standard for God's people.]
2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
[Although this passage is talking about Christ and His people, it uses the analogy of a Christian man receiving his bride "as a pure virgin." Virginity was the ideal. Premarital sex was viewed as sexual immorality - just as in the Old Testament.]
The standard in both the Old and New Testament regarding premarital sex is the same. Premarital sex is considered sin and a violation of the uniting of bodies that should happen only in marriage.
It is important to say, however, that many Christians have violated this standard. THIS WAS TRUE OF THOSE IN THE EARLY CHURCH TOO.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Christians were sinners before they came to Christ and Christians are still sinners after they come to Christ. If you have violated God's standards of premarital sex, but are repentant, then accept the FACT that you are washed, made pure, and in a right relationship with your heavenly Father. Seek the miracle of His power filling you to overcome further temptation toward sexual sin.
Neutralaccounting ( talk) 21:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't have a lot of experience with Wikipedia, though I've run several Mediawikis on my own. Most of my lack here is not knowing the policies and procedures. To avoid conflict of interest (because I am Hanne Blank's partner), I kept my edit down to adding a link to the FAQ for Hanne Blank's upcoming book on the history of virginity in the External Links. If the link is too Hanne Blank centric, then perhaps it would be better used as a reference for any future edits to the article.
Anyhow, if someone with more experience in the subtleties of POV on Wikipedia could vet and keep or delete the external link, I would love it. I fear I am too close to the subject to be objective, and took lead from the fact that you already have articles from HBlank and HCorinna (a long-time collaborator with HBlank) in External Links. MalcolmGin 15:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason I mention this is that the book, part history, part medical scholarship is good quality secondary and tertiary source material to correct many of the citation-less assertions made here.
I do think the article goes in a good direction, but the (especially technical) discussion would be well-informed by a good read of the book in question. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ISBN 1596910100 -- MalcolmGin 20:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
google shows no hits and I have never heard of this, is it a troll edit? Blue loonie 07:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
WOW! Thats strange!
Neither a recent SOED nor a fairly old Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology suggests that the derivation of "pussy" in the sexual-slang sense is any different from the derivation of the feline sense. (And Partridge, in Slang and Unconventional English, interestingly gives "puss" rather than "pussy" as the sexual slang, which I suspect also makes the article's proposed etymology from "pucelle" less likely.) SOED does date "pussy" in the sexual sense back to the late C18, so I've removed the description of it as "modern" slang. Barnabypage 17:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody REALLY messed up this page. Someone read and correct all of this rubbish! And where has the Sikhism virginity section gone?
This line is untrue: "In males, there is no physically visible indicator of virginity."
Someone needs to incorporate the following in some way that isn't plagerism.
Signs of male virginity, which the tribal examiners claim white doctors either ignore or have simply not learned to interpret, include a “white lacy skin” within the foreskin, a taut and difficult-to-retract foreskin, and the presence of a particular vein that is visible in the penis of virgin but not of sexually experienced males. [...] these and other signs, such as the way in which a young man urinates (urine that sprays is considered a sign of virginity, whereas a coherent stream would be a sign of its loss) [...] http://www.hanneblank.com/main/ex19.html
I see a problem here, the article says that the hymen is commonly ruptured during physical activity or when using a tampon. However, the Hymen entry says the exact opposite. The internet is even more confusing. Can somebody with proper knowledge correct this and add citations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.72.75.161 ( talk) 10:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Women who actively engage, exclusively, with other women sexually through their entire lives cannot reasonably called virgins, most would agree. There should be a discussion on how the lesbian culture views virginity. -- MQDuck 02:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
"The well known advice columnist Dan Savage frequently ridicules such assertions when made by correspondents to his column and podcast Savage Love. His view, shared by many, is that "having sex", explicitly includes sexual activity other than vaginal intercourse, including oral or anal sex, or mutual masturbation. It therefore follows that once an individual has engaged in such sexual activity, they are no longer a virgin in any meaningful sense."
This seems kind of useless. One man's opinion whould be recorded on one man's article. As it is, I have never heard of Dan Savage, and the phrase "well known" fails to convince me that he isnt just a small town newpapre columnist. Id remove this myself, but I'm too timid. Any other thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.94.18 ( talk) 03:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The etymology section of this article was so dreadful and misleading it attracted my attention. In sorting that out, using the Oxford Dictionary and some Latin sources we might clear up some confusion.
There seems to be enough unsourced nonsense on this page that I would have thought even quoting a local radio shock-jock would be a step forwards.
I'm not a Wiki-virgin, I've been around the block a few times. In my experience, articles tend to improve with added quotes from reliable, available sources.
If you're not out to prove black is white, feel free to google up some sources, you'll know which are agenda-pushing and which are informative. Search 'em up and whack 'em on the page. Cheers. Alastair Haines 09:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
PS Don't know who rated this as top importance, bit of a sad view on long-term stable relationships. Alastair Haines 09:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
You say the nicest things. I will probably do some more work over the next few days or so. I really need to think out a logical approach to the whole article. For example, do we need a Historic practices section, Laws regarding virginity section. I'm personally curious to know about these things. I also want to find more psychological studies of women's perceptions of virginity and its loss. Although it's gross, I think we have texts describing Meso American religious rituals involving virgin sacrifice. I may have them wrong, but I believe they sacrificed lots of people, not merely virgins. They should be in the Religion section.
Finally, there are some basic ideas that need logical presentation. If a wife discovers her husband has been sleeping with a young intern at work, and he says, "ah! but that was yesterday, I want to sleep with you today." I'm not sure she'd be very impressed. A virgin bride who discovers her fiance had rather a reputation for sleeping around at college might be equally unimpressed by, "but I wasn't married then, I'll be different when we're together." But I'm assuming that men and women are the same in how they feel and express sexual jealousy, but we just don't know the differences in how male and female brains work in this area yet (though I know some studies have been done).
Then there's the inconsistant logic that speculates that sexual experience outside marriage has little psychological effect, while on the other hand, often the same people, argue that "date rape" is a serious crime that needs addressing with major legislative intervention and public spending.
I think for this article to responsibly address the topic, it needs to find good sources that show clearly the connections between sexual jealousy, romantic love, divorce, rape and virginity. Social perception of virginity doesn't exist in glorious isolation. Finding the good sources that discuss this is the trick. ;) Alastair Haines 02:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Being German myself, I was rather surprised when I read this paragraph. I wouldn't want to offend anyone, but please abstain from writing about the etymology of another language when it is obvious that the basics aren't mastered. The word "Frauline" (pretended to be "the standard German word for a young woman") doesn't even exist in the German language. Accordingly, the link de:Frauline is broken. There is a German word "Fräulein" (Miss), which is a diminutive of "Frau" (woman, Mrs), but it is definitely NOT the standard German word for a young woman. As a matter of fact, it is (like the English "Miss") used as a title prefix to the name, but not as a stand-alone word (with very rare exceptions that have special meanings). Furthermore, it's not seen as a "title of respect" (sic). To the contrary, it is nowadays considered quite disrespectful by many women (and its use is severely condemned by all feminist organizations). It WAS for some period in history understood as a title of respect due to the fact that it was originally reserved to young women of the aristocracy, but that's the past. As for "Jüngling" which is said to be the male equivalent to "Jungfrau": the commonly understood sense of "Jüngling" is just a boy (very young man, without any connotation concerning the sexual experience, unlike "Jungfrau"), and even that is archaic and very rarely used. The meaning of "Jüngling" as a direct male equivalent to "Jungfrau" does exist (in the dictionary at least) but its usage is close to nil. You'll even rather find the female term applied to a male (possibly in adjectivized form) to denote the lack of intercourse experience than "Jüngling". Sebastian Lammert 23:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed there's a link at the beggining of the article to a "feminist criticisms" section which was never created.
Also, it struck me as rather odd that there wasn't a discussion any discussion of how the definition would relate to gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals.
For example, for example, would a bisexual young woman be considered a virgin if she'd "had sex" with women, but "only messed around" with men? Even if the "messing around" that she was doing with the guys was exactly the same sort of activity as she was doing with the women when she was "having sex" with them.... Helvetica 05:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"Some feminists have claimed that most societies value female virginity more highly than male virginity, but interpret this negatively as sexism against women. History evidences laws and customs that required a man who seduced or raped a virgin to take responsibility for the consequences of his offense by marrying the girl or by paying compensation to her father on her behalf.[6]"
This is the fourth paragraph under "In Culture". The problems I see here are first, the generic "some feminists" tag- which feminists, who said this? Second, the italics on "women" in the first paragraph- the only point I can see to these italics is to imply that feminists are silly and that the virgin status is sexist against men. Third, and this is more of a logic problem that a wiki problem, the second sentence evidences that "a man who seduced or raped a virgin to take responsibility...by marrying the girl or paying compensation to her father" as an apparent counterargument to the apparently outlandish generic "feminist" belief that female emphasis on virginity is sexism against women. Guys, if somebody raped you and the "punishment" was that you had to marry your rapist against your will or get your father paid off (gee, I wonder what would happen if a woman was raped by her father..?), would you consider that sexism against men?
I feel that this entire paragraph should be deleted, but I would like to hear what other people think first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.57.148 ( talk) 22:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it will be impossible to find such a citation, because virginity is not a notion it is a fact. Hence academic literature (hundreds or thousands of articles) that discuss sexual debut and the age of consent etc. The problem with the sentence, is that it is a way of talking about virginity as if it is all in the mind and it shouldn't be there. If you like, it is a "thinly veiled attack" on valuing virginity. Unfortunately, virginity is simply a brute fact with social and psychological aspects that continue to be discussed in the literature and probably always will be. Additionally, probably a billion people of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist culture or commitment are not likely to go away in the near future.
I doubt that feminist have claimed the notion of virginity to be a sexist construct, but what I do know they claim is that placing different value on male and female viriginity is sexist. That involves two things: one, that people are treated differently on the grounds of sex; two, that the difference is experienced negatively for one of the sexes. Treating people differently on the grounds of sex is not sexism, it is one of the ways to get more women involved in various occupations. Height, weight and fitness requirements in the armed forces are lower for women than for men. That is not considered sexist (partly because it advantages women), but mainly because this is not thought to disadvantage women, nor the men.
Virginity is a tricky discussion, but the feminists who argue for devaluing female virginity argue one of two quite different positions. Basically, both argue that the "double standard" with regard to sexual purity is sexist; however, one group argues that girls should have the same freedom as boys to experiment sexually, the other group argues that boys as well as girls should be encouraged to keep virginity until marriage. The former group are the vast majority, the latter group include almost all the billion or so people still influenced by traditional religious values.
The last point is particularly relevant to another problem with the sentence. It speaks of "societies that value virginity most highly". There are several problems with this sentence, and again they are as subtle as the suggestion that virginity is a notion. The first is that, in fact, marriage and sexual jealousy are cultural universals, hence virginity is valued significantly in all cultures. It is true that some value it more than others, however, the impression the sentence gives is that some cultures have a high value and others have none, or that it is simply unrecognized in some cultures, which is just not the case. By following the word notion by society the whole sentence suggests virginity is a "cultural construction", not a physical and psycho-social reality, treated differently but recognized and significant across all cultures.
There are also some logical problems. Firstly, does the sentence think virginity is something women have or that men have? It must be something women have, because it is not often applied to men. But think again. If it can be applied to men, then it's not something exclusive to women. Or think yet again, if it is something that is a cultural notion and not a reality, then if societies have it for women, then that's all there is to it. If societies apply it to both, then that's all there is to it. If it's not real, but only in the minds of the society, we can't expect them to apply it according to objective reality, it can't be sexist, it just is.
Think about the suggestion that societies that value virginity highly don't value virginity in men. Is that valuing virginity? The word virginity is being used in two different ways five words apart. What the sentence means is: "societies that value virginity in women most highly don't value virginity in men."
Now, that was one heck of a long essay to address one tiny sentence. Unfortunately, it's got to do with how tricky words can be. A normal reader picks up only the following:
Now, bearing in mind we happen to know (3) and (4) are wrong or irrelevant, I suggest we remove them, they can only give feminists a bad name. The sentence is appalling, no self-respecting feminist would write it. However (1), (2) and (5) are all true to some extent, i.e. there are many feminists who dislike the distinction implied by virginity. They discourage Miss in favour of Ms for similar reasons. They don't like the way society categorizes women according to their sexual/marrital relationships, and they like the way they perceive men to be free of such categorization.
There is so much to cover here, that it needs it's own section, not a single sentence. Eventually I will write it if no-one else does. However, in the mean time, I'm afraid I will have to delete the current sentence again. I provided an alternative that covered the facts. It's up to you and others whether you restore that or provide something else, but the current sentence is misleading and inaccurate on several points, subtle though they are. Alastair Haines ( talk) 12:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"A virgin is a young woman characterized by absence of sexual experience"; this statement needs to be changed. A virgin is simply a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse. There are major NPOV problems with this article. Alison88 ( talk) 22:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Men can certainly be called 'virgins', according to Christianity. The Book of Revelation explicitly mentions the '144,000' men who are prophesied to stand with the 'Lamb' (the new Jewish king) on the Mountain of Tsiyon in Jerusalem (the capital) at the end of the reign of the age of foreign rulers (Roman emperor, etc.). These men are explicitly called 'virgins'.
The Book of Revelation is written from within a Jewish context that doesnt value 'perpetual virginity'. These 144,000 should probably be understood as something like 13-year-old men, who are perceived as too young to be guilty of crime, albeit in Revelation they are uniquely goodwilled. (They evidence a forerunner of the custom of the right of passage of Bar Mitsva.) In any case, these young men are explicitly called 'virgins' (Greek παρθενοι parthenoi), and the passage is rife with the Hellenistic (Platonic) spiritual ideals associated with virginity. -- Haldrik ( talk) 19:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
please define coitarche in this article since it links here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.28.36 ( talk) 02:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I am having serious issue with the retranslation of the etymological definition of the word "virgo" used on this page and its corresponding assumptions. Based on the 1st web link used at the bottom of the page which redirects one to the Online Etymological Dictionary, the definition of the word "virgo" is a "maiden, unwedded girl or woman". This gives no indication of the specific age (it covers all ages maiden/girl - woman), or their respective sexual experience. I feel this is important to note, as there is an understanding in ancient cultures that a "woman unto herself", ie not being possesed by family or husband, was considered a "virgin", and it is believed in many circles that these women were actually in service to goddess worshipping temples, and therefore did not need a husband to care for them.
Even if the group writing this entry disagree with this view, I believe in the service of impartiality and it being a "-pedia" of information, it is important to give ALL the aspects information connected to a subject and let the reader do her/his own research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilithgrrl ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia is excellent on this topic. Augustine and Aquinas are also excellent. The western traditions regarding virginity are very easy to recover with these superb sources. Thanks for pointing us to what ought to have been an obvious place to start. Alastair Haines ( talk) 07:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss the New Testament references relevant to a recent editors proposed improvements. There's more space to discuss these through to agreement at this page, than in edit notes. Please drop a line. :) Alastair Haines ( talk) 14:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I did leave you a message on your talk page. The original greek uses the term "Sodomites". Interpretation of that has been controversial, and there is no common agreement. As 1st Corinthinans is cited, we should remain faithful to it. 1st Corinthinas was written iriginally in the Greek langage.
If we are citing 1 Corinthians, (6:9 apparently) we should do so accurately, and not give one editors personal interpretation. The reader can understand that the citation was against sodomites (the act of sodomy?) and interpret that according to their own personal convinctions, without us mis-interpreting for them.
The sin of the sodomites is interpreted by many people in many different ways. Here is one I googled [1] regardless of this persons view, it is obviously open to wide interpretation, and few people interpret that to mean "homosexual intercourse". The most commonly intrepreted perspective of biblical scholars seem to be that Sodomy at that time referred to immorality, idolatry and possibly bestiality (intercourse with animals, as part of idolatry worship). Regardless, if we use the original greek translation, and let each individual choose their own interpretation, we do no disservice, and risk no mis-interpretation.
1 Corinthians 6:9 [2] 9 Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus h ouk oidate oti adikoi basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin mh planasqe oute pornoi oute eidwlolatrai oute moicoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai
Latin Vulgate 6:9 an nescitis quia iniqui regnum Dei non possidebunt nolite errare neque fornicarii neque idolis servientes neque adulteri
King James Version 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Bible in Basic English 6:9 Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,
Weymouth New Testament 6:9 Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit God's Kingdom? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime,
Young's Literal Translation 6:9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
Atom ( talk) 16:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Just dropping a note to alert any regular page watchers that Abtract stalks me to various pages and deletes anything he thinks he can make others believe could be questionable. He's occasionally moderately clever about it, but this is not one of those occasions. POV requires addition to articles, not subtraction. If only one POV is documented, the others need to be. In this case Abtract's only made work for himself. He will need to provide a source for an alternative POV to prove that he is not guilty of gaming the system. If he can't source an alternative POV, then he has to admit he had no grounds for reversion except hounding yours truly. Normally I'm too kind to confront him as directly as this, but after six months and giving him chances all the way to ArbCom, my patience and his luck have just run out.
Enjoy Wiki, friends, but don't make hounding other editors one of your joys.
What are we going to do about Abtract? Nothing! Even though the longer he spends picking a target sentence or paragraph, the longer it takes to see through him, we can still see through him faster than he can select his target. Restoration is the work of a moment. The longer he targets the work of one editor, the more clearly he is exposed.
Please cite your sources that tell us that chastity is improperly discussed in other academic literature. Please tell us who criticises DM Buss and colleagues who make psychological connections between viriginity and chastity. My tone probably won't win you over as a friend, but it will hardly lose me one, will it? Alastair Haines ( talk) 10:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Chastity is a near synonym of virginity, [1] the distinction being that chastity views sexual integrity in terms of faithfulness to a spouse, rather than as absolute inexperience. Sexual jealousy is a recurrent theme throughout the history of literature. Virginity derives its significance from this context, because it distinguishes between unmarried women who have had no sexual partners and those who have.
My objection to this paragraph is very simple - after the seventh word (virginity) it is entirely the personal viewpoint of the editor (whoever the original editor was); there is no citation for it. Even the start of this para is dubious because, although chastity can be synonymous with virginity it is more commonly used in a temporary sense (it can be turned on or off whereas virginity can only be turned off, so to speak). Chastity is not limited to faithfulness to a spouse, it can exist in isolation (without a spouse); virginity is not, of necessity, connected with marriage, though of course it has connotations to some men. I have no objection to such views (or counterviews) being included if they are shown to be reported views from reputable sources, but not when they are uncited as they were before I removed the para. It is not my task to give citations for removing material - challenged uncited material may be removed at will, putting it back requires citation - that is the wp way. Abtract ( talk) 19:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have a few moments, I will spell things out even more clearly.
Have I left out any options? Can you think of three stories involving sexual jealousy? What about films and songs? What were the primary sources? Can you think of people who may have commented on those texts? How many sources could be cited regarding sexual jealousy in literature? How much space do we have? What is the topic of the article? Alastair Haines ( talk) 09:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Reflection on "playful" challenges of text. When something that is essentially obvious is reverted, to restore it with a public explanation looks patronising. A very effective technique, were it permitted, of making someone else's life difficult would be to encourage everyone to challenge everything a certain person did, however reasonable it may appear. That way, if the challenges were dismissed people could cry "rudeness!" If the challenges are answered, they will also cry "rudeness!" Of course, the reality is that such "playfulness" deserves the dismissal or the patronising it receives. Alastair Haines ( talk) 09:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Response to Haines POV 1 - 5 above: this completely misses the point ... wp is not interested in your POV or mine but only in published POVs. The fact that Haines thinks that "all" think something is a good reason for the initial addition of text but it is not a justification for insisting on the continued inclusion of text. Once text has been challenged, either by its removal or by a "fact" tag , then it has to be justified, either by consensus or by suitable citations, before it is re-introduced into the article. Text may be challenged for a variety of reasons - thought to be incorrect (and uncited), considered dubious (and uncited), considered to be irelevant in the context of the article (even if cited), considered to be the personal opinion of the editor, considered to be the result of original research, and no doubt other reasons too. Once text has been challenged by removal, it should not be re-introduced until citations are found (if that was the original problem), or it has been discussed on the talk page and consensus reached, or even both. The general point to remember is that the burden of justification (citation or consensus or both) is on the editor wanting to include text that has been challenged by another editor; removal of text carries no such burden. Phrases like "They are common knowledge and uncontroversial" don't cut the mustard I'm afraid, see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. Abtract ( talk) 13:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
In some cultures, women are not regarded as virgins after a sexual assault, but some people disavow this notion. There are also those who take this "spiritual" concept of virginity further, considering "born again virgins" to be virgins, regardless of their past sexual conduct. After they do this they wish to start a new life and be faithful to their love ones.
I have removed this section as there were no citations for it. Weasel words like "some cultures" and "some people" are not justification for statements that may be true but may not for all the reader knows. Abtract ( talk) 17:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The first part is a fundamental of many societies, not just "some": sexual assault results in loss of virginity. Virginity in many cultures, especially a century ago, was a viewed as a valuable piece of property. Quickly looking at
[3] (Mario M. Ruiz, Virginity Violated: Sexual Assault and Respectability in Mid to Late-Nineteenth-Century Egypt,
Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, 2005
ISSN
1089-201X), it looks there may be cases in Egypt where virginity was stolen, and this was taken to the justice system in place, the offender was required to pay the father for the lost of his daughters virginity, as it depreciated her value. Looks interesting; will need to research this a bit more. I recall that
Jewish law has some words to say about non-consensual pre-marital sex.
However, modern studies show that most people do not hold this opinion in the practical sense. Here is an abstract that clearly points this out (I can provide a PDF if anyone doesnt believe me that the article doesnt back it up):
i.e. The social concept of virginity now has a conscience.
In regards to "born again virgins", there are a number of books in the non-academic arena, especially in the charismatic movement, but I cant put my hands on those quickly; one that has had a few reviews is The Cult of the Born Again Virgin: How Single Women Can Reclaim Their Sexual Power, by Wendy Keller - one review in Publishers Weekly said it is a "radical but well-argued book". A very detailed academic review of this concept can be found in: Jamie Mullaney Like A Virgin: Temptation, Resistance, and the Construction of Identities Based on “Not Doings”, Qualitative Sociology, Volume 24, Number 1 / June, 2001 doi: 10.1023/A:1026676613073
John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Another article I think will help is Stephanie R. Medley-Rath “Am I Still a Virgin?”: What Counts as Sex in 20 years of Seventeen, Sexuality & Culture, Volume 11, Number 2 / April, 2007 doi: 10.1007/s12119-007-9002-x. It looks at "letters to the editor" sent to the magazine as a way of looking at what acts cross the line of virginity. John Vandenberg ( chat) 02:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Attitudes regarding male virginity and female virginity have often diverged, however, usually placing greater emphasis on the latter, and even devaluing the former. In modern times it is not uncommon for either male or female virginity in adolescents and adults to be disparaged by peers, as a sign of immaturity. citation needed
I have removed this uncited section (note it was tagged in August and no citations have appeared. Abtract ( talk) 18:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Please refer to the above section where a study of US university students often associated virginity with the word "stigma". There is now a push in the other direction, with virginity becoming vogue again. Both of these have been studied in detail from many angles. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
In Western marriage ceremonies, brides traditionally wear veils and white wedding dresses, which are believed by many people to be symbols of virginity. In fact, wearing white is a comparatively recent custom among western brides, who previously wore whatever colors they wished or simply their "best dress." Wearing white became a matter first of trendy fashion and then of custom and tradition only over the course of the 19th century.
I have rmoved this section also ... weasel words like "traditionally", "believed by many people", "in fact", and "became" do not make this factual (though of course it may be ... let's see the citations). Abtract ( talk) 18:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I see the fan club has arrived ... the correct way to handle content dispute is bold ... revert ... discuss. Bold ... revert ... revert is not the wp way, but it was predictable. I challenge each of the three sections above; I do not need citations for my challenge but those who want the text back in do need citations to support their view. Abtract ( talk) 21:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
As quoted on Wikipedia:Verifiabilty from Jimbo himself; if this doesn't convince you nothing will:
"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Abtract ( talk) 23:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll not trouble to restore the text related to Islamic law regarding "marrying" a slave. This practice, and law regarding it, is also found in the Hebrew Bible. I think whoever provided the information was trying to clarify for a reader what the "boundaries" for legitimate sexual activity involve in Islam. It is relevant to virginity because, in fact, slightly different standards have been applied to what is considered lawful regarding women's sexuality when it comes to slaves, in some cultures and religions. A slave girl was not expected to be a virgin if she was released from her master's service. There's a suite of relevant follow-up legislation regarding such "harem" women that varies quite substantially across cultures—some appearing shockingly barbaric to modern tastes, others appearing to be relatively humane, at least in the context of the practice of other contemporary societies.
Although I suspect some editors may be trying in good faith to avoid bias and gathering text promoting an Islamic POV, I think it is worth mentioning that currently things look precisely the opposite. It looks as though the Islamic POV is being silenced, where in fact we need it expanded in order to be neutral in presenting all PsOV. Of course, just "any old" addition here or there will not help us in that section, but I'd recommend we err on the side of being generous and welcoming regarding contributions to the Islamic section until it is more developed. Alastair Haines ( talk) 01:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Chastity is a near synonym of virginity, [1] the distinction being that chastity views sexual integrity in terms of faithfulness to a spouse, rather than as absolute inexperience. Sexual jealousy is a recurrent theme throughout the history of literature. Virginity derives its significance from this context, because it distinguishes between unmarried women who have had no sexual partners and those who have.
This paragraph is incorrect. First, chastity is not "faithfulness to a spouse"; no spouse is needed to be chaste since chastity means (in this context) "abstention from sexual intercourse" (Collins Dictionary) - and it is quite possible to be unfaithful without sexual intercourse (although not as much fun). Second, virginity has nothing to do with being unmarried; it is quite possible to remain a virgin after marriage.
In addition, sexual jealousy may well be a "recurrent theme throughout the history of literature" but so what? It certainly does not "distinguish ... etc" because many technical virgins have had several sexual partners (or does "heavy petting" no longer take place?). This is a piece of original research that has no citation to back it up.
Although chastity and virginity are near synonyms linguistically, for the purpose of an encyclopedic article, they are quite different; chastity may have a distinct beginning and end whereas virginity can only have an end. This is a point worth making somewhere in the body of the article but not in the lead.
The whole paragraph is simply the opinion of its author(s) and has no place in this article. Unless someone comes up with a good reason for its inclusion, I shall be removing it shortly. Abtract ( talk) 16:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Some simple classics, much cited in tertiary sources.
Will look to incorporate these some time. Any comments? Alastair Haines ( talk) 03:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
How about a section on famous virgins!? I nominate the first one: Natalie Dylan. Raquel Baranow ( talk) 11:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
For those who died as such, you can add:
Both came out of unconsummated marriages (Anne to Henry VIII) and were never married to other men.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
208.54.83.52 (
talk)
10:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Before I discuss anything, I think we need to archive a few of the discussions here. It's getting REALLY long.
Anyways, I noticed a few discussion on homosexual virginity, though they went on for only one or two replies, as well as male virginity, "rape virginity", and so on. In the article it does have a very brief mention of "technical virginity", and I think it needs more. It was mentioned in a topic earlier, and this was proposed:
"There is some discussion of the issue under Technical virginity. The discussion does need to be organized better. If no one else does it, I'll get to it eventually. I think a possible logical framework could be:
In addition to perhaps the health / medical view point of virginity/sex, though I guess that one would depend on the country.
I don't have much else to say, this just needs to get re-discussed! -- Avalik ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Here's an interesting definition from someone making a film documentary and is recruiting two virgins (male & female):
This site takes the "objective" view" to the max, and even throws contact with ambiguous genitals into the mix: [4]
Lesbian Virginity: In the Natalie Dylan article, "In 2004, a lesbian 18 year old student in England had sold her virginity online for £8,400.[9]" I.e., ppl considered her a virgin (I do).
Maybe we should just have a section about miscelaneous opinions & definitions of virgity with subcatagories or bullet paragraphs. There was a speaker I knew who always said, "A male virgin can do no wrong." I always laughed and puzzled over that 'cause I was a virgin at the time. Again, it gets back to the "innocents" of virgins.
Some say loss of virginity was what caused Adam & Eve to fall from God's grace (citation needed) . . . and they immediately knew they were naked.
When I was speaking at the University (I was speaking about the Holocaust and probably mentioned that I was a virgin), someone came up to me after and told me, "It doesn't matter if a woman loses her virginity, in men it's more important." I believe he was a Jew and this is what he learned in his culture. He really respected me for being a virgin! :) Raquel Baranow ( talk) 13:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Male virginity is less clear, as the whole thing behind it for women is the whole concept of being "untouched", especially in the deepest part of their anatomy. Men aren't really thought of as "touched", but are the ones doing the touching! Plus, don't forget that unless they had a C section, they did come out of woman. 24.184.144.240 ( talk) 21:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
As to the question above about whether or not rape counts as loss of virginity, that is a complicated question for sure. I mean, rape (I'm speaking vaginal rape in this instance) is sexual intercourse, after all, even though forced. But I am certain that most people would not consider their own rape (or even other people's) to have been "their first time" having sex. The anal sex/oral sex bit, as we know, would not be considered a loss of virginity to some people.
I feel that the Technical virginity section should be added back...but with better wording and valid sources, of course. Flyer22 ( talk) 23:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
What is meant by "rules about sexuality still apply" in the section "contemporary"? Debresser ( talk) 18:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Section first turned into paragraph of previous section, as per internal structure of artilce. Later removed completely as unsourced and unclear, while making grand statements. Debresser ( talk) 01:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following statement from the intro:
"A woman can also be classified as not a Virgin if she has pleasured herself."
Setting aside the coy euphemism "pleasured herself" (presumably, achieved orgasm through masturbation), this is such a minority view (unattributed!) that its placement in the first paragraph gives it vastly undue prominence. As far as I can see from skimming the article, this view is attributed only to the particular theology of the Catholic Church, which is explored at some length in its own section. Cynwolfe ( talk) 17:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I have no issue with the reference (because it is culturally significant), but I think the picture of the cherry is a little too much. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.34.157 ( talk) 21:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The lead section, though appearing to be of about the right length, has the wrong content. Most of it is a rant about what other meanings the word virgin can have. I'm not saying that shouldn't be in the article, but it shouldn't be half the lead. To a close approximation, the lead should be a miniature version of the article, and if it was then you would expect the article to cover very little of the material it does. Richard001 ( talk) 08:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure how long the religion section should be, but it seems like a good idea to have a subarticle called virginity and religion/ religion and virginity, which would not be under the size constraints it is here. It would also allow this article to be a bit more selective and concise in dealing with this aspect of the topic. (Whether such an article would be considered a virgin birth is something we can leave for theologians to discuss.) Richard001 ( talk) 10:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The Mayo Clinic at one time established a psychological documentation on how people felt after their first sexual experience, common difficulties, etc. This was a mainstream publication that was meant for patients. I saw this a long time ago and the data has probably changed enough to necessitate update, but if anyone can find this it could greatly contribute to the article. 64.31.188.26 00:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
A meaning then debased and used to exert control over woman by organised religons.
Anyone know of some of the origins of this idea? Would like to know more but not sure where to look.
i think there should be a disambiguation page for this article, because the the word "virgin" is likely to be refered to Virgin Group. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.130.26.25 ( talk • contribs) .
FYI, "Why I Am Not a Christian" is not a book by Bertrand Russell. It is an essay (though originally a lecture). But the writer may be referring to a book that bears a similiar title("Why I Am Not a Christian : And Other Essays on Religion and Related Subjects") that includes that essay with others.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.45.160.201 ( talk • contribs) .
Check this out, Involuntary Virginity it is not uncommon for people who want to have sex but aren't "getting laid" are suffering from extreme shyness or Social Anxiety disorder.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.199.249.47 ( talk • contribs) .
It's a rather grim topic to raise, but I wonder whether it is notable or not to mention the link between cultural perception of virginity and the practise of infibulation. This is a procedure, largely performed in sub-Saharan Africa, in which a female's (typically young girls) labia majora are sewed together, usually in some combination with female or "pharaonic" circumcision and/or clitoridotomy. The purpose of the procedure is both a cultural milestone as well as a method of enforcing female virginity before marriage. Speaking to the subject of virginity, it is notable as a method which has been used to prevent deflowering before marriage. Clearly, in such cultures virginity must be considered highly valuable, or else such customs would never have arisen. Does anyone else think this is worth mention in the article? Cheers, Kasreyn 06:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've read Dawkins on this, and he's quite likely right. My question now is precisewhy what additional material we need to add, and how we might structure it. Any ideas? Al 04:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This article definitely needs information on how the other world religions view virginity. I'd add it if I could, but I don't know much about it.-- Cúchullain t/ c 02:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Latest edit seems not to fit NPOV and the reference link is to Plain Truth Online, not the most neutral of sources. 202.156.6.54 15:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
This section could potentially benefit if it were rewritten.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 169.229.76.39 ( talk • contribs) .
On the topic of Judaism, I think clarification is needed. The article implies that Judaism is rather lax when it comes to sex before marriage, and that this has been true for its history. However, it is basically common knowledge, thanks to the Christian Gospels, that Jewish law had provisions for the stoning of adulterers, especially the female. In fact, much of Christian law about adultery and virginity comes from texts shared by Christianity and Judaism. The Pentateuch provides many punishments for the taking of virginity, and these often can include the death penalty, especially stoning. Perhaps the law was not often enforced, but it seems to me that the fact that the death penalty was on the books as a punishment for pre-marital sex should disqualify the word "lenient" as a description of Jewish law or practice.
I went on and removed the part that said celabicy is encouraged in Christianity, particularly in the book of Matthew. This is false. The Bible, while it writes about a celebate apostle, does not encourage celebacy. It actually says to be fruitful and multiply (of course, within the bonds of marriage) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.129.5.5 ( talk • contribs) .
Sagaciousid 16:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Put it back up. Please read the following, hoping it will help. I got this from http://www.new-life.net/premarital.htm
Premarital Sex and the Bible
Sometimes you will hear people say that the Bible doesn't say anything about premarital sex. Apparently this statement is made by people who haven't read the Bible or, at least, who haven't read it thoroughly. The Bible speaks in clear language directly to the issue in both the Old and New Testaments. Here are the Biblical passages with short comments.
Old Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage
Exodus 22:16-17 If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
[If premarital sex occurs, then an Israelite male was to marry the woman he slept with - that is, assuming the father allowed the marriage.]
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
[Premarital sex is viewed as a "disgraceful thing" and "evil."]
Proverbs 5:15-21 Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love. Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.
[A man's "fountain" should be saved for "the wife of [his] youth." The man is to be a virgin when he takes his wife.]
[In addition to these three Scriptures, there are 32 other verses in the Old Testament speaking about a "virgin" or "virgins." Each of these passages shows that virginity was highly cherished as the standard for God's people.]
New Testament Scriptures Regarding Sex Before Marriage
[When we come to the New Testament we don't have verses explicitly describing the act of premarital sex and its consequences like we do in Exodus or Deuteronomy. It is clear, however, that virginity is still the standard for unmarried Christians and that sex outside the context of marriage is still considered sin.]
1 Corinthians 6:16-18 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
[Sexual intimacy "unites" you with the other person. When this uniting of flesh happens outside of marriage, it is called "sexual immorality." One fleshness is to be limited to the one you marry. This is similar to what we saw in Exodus 22:16-17.]
1 Corinthians 7:1-2 Now about the questions you asked in your letter. Yes, it is good to live a celibate life. But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband. [Notice that to avoid sexual immorality outside of marriage people should marry.]
1 Corinthians 7:8-9 Now I say to those who aren't married and to widows it's better to stay unmarried, just as I am. But if they can't control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It's better to marry than to burn with lust. [If you are struggling with wanting to have sex, get married. Premarital sex isn't an option for dealing with lust. It's either marriage or you are in sexual sin.]
Ephesians 5:31
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
[Paul is quoting from Genesis 2:24 and affirming the Old Testament standard of uniting in flesh only with your spouse. One fleshness is to happen when a man leaves his father and mother and is "united to his wife." Compare with 1 Corinthians 6:16-18.]
1 Thessalonians 4:2-8 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this manner no one should cheat his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
["Acquire a wife in a way that is holy and honorable" or you are in sexual immorality. Sexual sin harms others besides those who engage in it. In adultery, the spouse is always wronged. Premarital sex "cheats" the future partner by robbing him or her of the virginity that ought to be brought to marriage.]
Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
[Again, it's a pure marriage bed or you are an "adulterer" or "sexually immoral."]
1 Timothy 5:2 Treat older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
[As a Christian man, if you are not married to her, then she is your sister (who you must treat "with absolute purity").]
1 Corinthians 7:7:28,34,36-38
[Note in these verses how virginity is assumed for unmarried women living in Christian homes. This is the same thing as we saw in the Old Testament. Virginity was the standard for God's people.]
2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
[Although this passage is talking about Christ and His people, it uses the analogy of a Christian man receiving his bride "as a pure virgin." Virginity was the ideal. Premarital sex was viewed as sexual immorality - just as in the Old Testament.]
The standard in both the Old and New Testament regarding premarital sex is the same. Premarital sex is considered sin and a violation of the uniting of bodies that should happen only in marriage.
It is important to say, however, that many Christians have violated this standard. THIS WAS TRUE OF THOSE IN THE EARLY CHURCH TOO.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders... will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Christians were sinners before they came to Christ and Christians are still sinners after they come to Christ. If you have violated God's standards of premarital sex, but are repentant, then accept the FACT that you are washed, made pure, and in a right relationship with your heavenly Father. Seek the miracle of His power filling you to overcome further temptation toward sexual sin.
Neutralaccounting ( talk) 21:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't have a lot of experience with Wikipedia, though I've run several Mediawikis on my own. Most of my lack here is not knowing the policies and procedures. To avoid conflict of interest (because I am Hanne Blank's partner), I kept my edit down to adding a link to the FAQ for Hanne Blank's upcoming book on the history of virginity in the External Links. If the link is too Hanne Blank centric, then perhaps it would be better used as a reference for any future edits to the article.
Anyhow, if someone with more experience in the subtleties of POV on Wikipedia could vet and keep or delete the external link, I would love it. I fear I am too close to the subject to be objective, and took lead from the fact that you already have articles from HBlank and HCorinna (a long-time collaborator with HBlank) in External Links. MalcolmGin 15:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason I mention this is that the book, part history, part medical scholarship is good quality secondary and tertiary source material to correct many of the citation-less assertions made here.
I do think the article goes in a good direction, but the (especially technical) discussion would be well-informed by a good read of the book in question. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ISBN 1596910100 -- MalcolmGin 20:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
google shows no hits and I have never heard of this, is it a troll edit? Blue loonie 07:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
WOW! Thats strange!
Neither a recent SOED nor a fairly old Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology suggests that the derivation of "pussy" in the sexual-slang sense is any different from the derivation of the feline sense. (And Partridge, in Slang and Unconventional English, interestingly gives "puss" rather than "pussy" as the sexual slang, which I suspect also makes the article's proposed etymology from "pucelle" less likely.) SOED does date "pussy" in the sexual sense back to the late C18, so I've removed the description of it as "modern" slang. Barnabypage 17:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Somebody REALLY messed up this page. Someone read and correct all of this rubbish! And where has the Sikhism virginity section gone?
This line is untrue: "In males, there is no physically visible indicator of virginity."
Someone needs to incorporate the following in some way that isn't plagerism.
Signs of male virginity, which the tribal examiners claim white doctors either ignore or have simply not learned to interpret, include a “white lacy skin” within the foreskin, a taut and difficult-to-retract foreskin, and the presence of a particular vein that is visible in the penis of virgin but not of sexually experienced males. [...] these and other signs, such as the way in which a young man urinates (urine that sprays is considered a sign of virginity, whereas a coherent stream would be a sign of its loss) [...] http://www.hanneblank.com/main/ex19.html
I see a problem here, the article says that the hymen is commonly ruptured during physical activity or when using a tampon. However, the Hymen entry says the exact opposite. The internet is even more confusing. Can somebody with proper knowledge correct this and add citations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.72.75.161 ( talk) 10:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Women who actively engage, exclusively, with other women sexually through their entire lives cannot reasonably called virgins, most would agree. There should be a discussion on how the lesbian culture views virginity. -- MQDuck 02:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
"The well known advice columnist Dan Savage frequently ridicules such assertions when made by correspondents to his column and podcast Savage Love. His view, shared by many, is that "having sex", explicitly includes sexual activity other than vaginal intercourse, including oral or anal sex, or mutual masturbation. It therefore follows that once an individual has engaged in such sexual activity, they are no longer a virgin in any meaningful sense."
This seems kind of useless. One man's opinion whould be recorded on one man's article. As it is, I have never heard of Dan Savage, and the phrase "well known" fails to convince me that he isnt just a small town newpapre columnist. Id remove this myself, but I'm too timid. Any other thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.101.94.18 ( talk) 03:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The etymology section of this article was so dreadful and misleading it attracted my attention. In sorting that out, using the Oxford Dictionary and some Latin sources we might clear up some confusion.
There seems to be enough unsourced nonsense on this page that I would have thought even quoting a local radio shock-jock would be a step forwards.
I'm not a Wiki-virgin, I've been around the block a few times. In my experience, articles tend to improve with added quotes from reliable, available sources.
If you're not out to prove black is white, feel free to google up some sources, you'll know which are agenda-pushing and which are informative. Search 'em up and whack 'em on the page. Cheers. Alastair Haines 09:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
PS Don't know who rated this as top importance, bit of a sad view on long-term stable relationships. Alastair Haines 09:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
You say the nicest things. I will probably do some more work over the next few days or so. I really need to think out a logical approach to the whole article. For example, do we need a Historic practices section, Laws regarding virginity section. I'm personally curious to know about these things. I also want to find more psychological studies of women's perceptions of virginity and its loss. Although it's gross, I think we have texts describing Meso American religious rituals involving virgin sacrifice. I may have them wrong, but I believe they sacrificed lots of people, not merely virgins. They should be in the Religion section.
Finally, there are some basic ideas that need logical presentation. If a wife discovers her husband has been sleeping with a young intern at work, and he says, "ah! but that was yesterday, I want to sleep with you today." I'm not sure she'd be very impressed. A virgin bride who discovers her fiance had rather a reputation for sleeping around at college might be equally unimpressed by, "but I wasn't married then, I'll be different when we're together." But I'm assuming that men and women are the same in how they feel and express sexual jealousy, but we just don't know the differences in how male and female brains work in this area yet (though I know some studies have been done).
Then there's the inconsistant logic that speculates that sexual experience outside marriage has little psychological effect, while on the other hand, often the same people, argue that "date rape" is a serious crime that needs addressing with major legislative intervention and public spending.
I think for this article to responsibly address the topic, it needs to find good sources that show clearly the connections between sexual jealousy, romantic love, divorce, rape and virginity. Social perception of virginity doesn't exist in glorious isolation. Finding the good sources that discuss this is the trick. ;) Alastair Haines 02:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Being German myself, I was rather surprised when I read this paragraph. I wouldn't want to offend anyone, but please abstain from writing about the etymology of another language when it is obvious that the basics aren't mastered. The word "Frauline" (pretended to be "the standard German word for a young woman") doesn't even exist in the German language. Accordingly, the link de:Frauline is broken. There is a German word "Fräulein" (Miss), which is a diminutive of "Frau" (woman, Mrs), but it is definitely NOT the standard German word for a young woman. As a matter of fact, it is (like the English "Miss") used as a title prefix to the name, but not as a stand-alone word (with very rare exceptions that have special meanings). Furthermore, it's not seen as a "title of respect" (sic). To the contrary, it is nowadays considered quite disrespectful by many women (and its use is severely condemned by all feminist organizations). It WAS for some period in history understood as a title of respect due to the fact that it was originally reserved to young women of the aristocracy, but that's the past. As for "Jüngling" which is said to be the male equivalent to "Jungfrau": the commonly understood sense of "Jüngling" is just a boy (very young man, without any connotation concerning the sexual experience, unlike "Jungfrau"), and even that is archaic and very rarely used. The meaning of "Jüngling" as a direct male equivalent to "Jungfrau" does exist (in the dictionary at least) but its usage is close to nil. You'll even rather find the female term applied to a male (possibly in adjectivized form) to denote the lack of intercourse experience than "Jüngling". Sebastian Lammert 23:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed there's a link at the beggining of the article to a "feminist criticisms" section which was never created.
Also, it struck me as rather odd that there wasn't a discussion any discussion of how the definition would relate to gay men, lesbians, or bisexuals.
For example, for example, would a bisexual young woman be considered a virgin if she'd "had sex" with women, but "only messed around" with men? Even if the "messing around" that she was doing with the guys was exactly the same sort of activity as she was doing with the women when she was "having sex" with them.... Helvetica 05:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"Some feminists have claimed that most societies value female virginity more highly than male virginity, but interpret this negatively as sexism against women. History evidences laws and customs that required a man who seduced or raped a virgin to take responsibility for the consequences of his offense by marrying the girl or by paying compensation to her father on her behalf.[6]"
This is the fourth paragraph under "In Culture". The problems I see here are first, the generic "some feminists" tag- which feminists, who said this? Second, the italics on "women" in the first paragraph- the only point I can see to these italics is to imply that feminists are silly and that the virgin status is sexist against men. Third, and this is more of a logic problem that a wiki problem, the second sentence evidences that "a man who seduced or raped a virgin to take responsibility...by marrying the girl or paying compensation to her father" as an apparent counterargument to the apparently outlandish generic "feminist" belief that female emphasis on virginity is sexism against women. Guys, if somebody raped you and the "punishment" was that you had to marry your rapist against your will or get your father paid off (gee, I wonder what would happen if a woman was raped by her father..?), would you consider that sexism against men?
I feel that this entire paragraph should be deleted, but I would like to hear what other people think first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.57.148 ( talk) 22:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it will be impossible to find such a citation, because virginity is not a notion it is a fact. Hence academic literature (hundreds or thousands of articles) that discuss sexual debut and the age of consent etc. The problem with the sentence, is that it is a way of talking about virginity as if it is all in the mind and it shouldn't be there. If you like, it is a "thinly veiled attack" on valuing virginity. Unfortunately, virginity is simply a brute fact with social and psychological aspects that continue to be discussed in the literature and probably always will be. Additionally, probably a billion people of Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist culture or commitment are not likely to go away in the near future.
I doubt that feminist have claimed the notion of virginity to be a sexist construct, but what I do know they claim is that placing different value on male and female viriginity is sexist. That involves two things: one, that people are treated differently on the grounds of sex; two, that the difference is experienced negatively for one of the sexes. Treating people differently on the grounds of sex is not sexism, it is one of the ways to get more women involved in various occupations. Height, weight and fitness requirements in the armed forces are lower for women than for men. That is not considered sexist (partly because it advantages women), but mainly because this is not thought to disadvantage women, nor the men.
Virginity is a tricky discussion, but the feminists who argue for devaluing female virginity argue one of two quite different positions. Basically, both argue that the "double standard" with regard to sexual purity is sexist; however, one group argues that girls should have the same freedom as boys to experiment sexually, the other group argues that boys as well as girls should be encouraged to keep virginity until marriage. The former group are the vast majority, the latter group include almost all the billion or so people still influenced by traditional religious values.
The last point is particularly relevant to another problem with the sentence. It speaks of "societies that value virginity most highly". There are several problems with this sentence, and again they are as subtle as the suggestion that virginity is a notion. The first is that, in fact, marriage and sexual jealousy are cultural universals, hence virginity is valued significantly in all cultures. It is true that some value it more than others, however, the impression the sentence gives is that some cultures have a high value and others have none, or that it is simply unrecognized in some cultures, which is just not the case. By following the word notion by society the whole sentence suggests virginity is a "cultural construction", not a physical and psycho-social reality, treated differently but recognized and significant across all cultures.
There are also some logical problems. Firstly, does the sentence think virginity is something women have or that men have? It must be something women have, because it is not often applied to men. But think again. If it can be applied to men, then it's not something exclusive to women. Or think yet again, if it is something that is a cultural notion and not a reality, then if societies have it for women, then that's all there is to it. If societies apply it to both, then that's all there is to it. If it's not real, but only in the minds of the society, we can't expect them to apply it according to objective reality, it can't be sexist, it just is.
Think about the suggestion that societies that value virginity highly don't value virginity in men. Is that valuing virginity? The word virginity is being used in two different ways five words apart. What the sentence means is: "societies that value virginity in women most highly don't value virginity in men."
Now, that was one heck of a long essay to address one tiny sentence. Unfortunately, it's got to do with how tricky words can be. A normal reader picks up only the following:
Now, bearing in mind we happen to know (3) and (4) are wrong or irrelevant, I suggest we remove them, they can only give feminists a bad name. The sentence is appalling, no self-respecting feminist would write it. However (1), (2) and (5) are all true to some extent, i.e. there are many feminists who dislike the distinction implied by virginity. They discourage Miss in favour of Ms for similar reasons. They don't like the way society categorizes women according to their sexual/marrital relationships, and they like the way they perceive men to be free of such categorization.
There is so much to cover here, that it needs it's own section, not a single sentence. Eventually I will write it if no-one else does. However, in the mean time, I'm afraid I will have to delete the current sentence again. I provided an alternative that covered the facts. It's up to you and others whether you restore that or provide something else, but the current sentence is misleading and inaccurate on several points, subtle though they are. Alastair Haines ( talk) 12:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
"A virgin is a young woman characterized by absence of sexual experience"; this statement needs to be changed. A virgin is simply a person who has never engaged in sexual intercourse. There are major NPOV problems with this article. Alison88 ( talk) 22:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Men can certainly be called 'virgins', according to Christianity. The Book of Revelation explicitly mentions the '144,000' men who are prophesied to stand with the 'Lamb' (the new Jewish king) on the Mountain of Tsiyon in Jerusalem (the capital) at the end of the reign of the age of foreign rulers (Roman emperor, etc.). These men are explicitly called 'virgins'.
The Book of Revelation is written from within a Jewish context that doesnt value 'perpetual virginity'. These 144,000 should probably be understood as something like 13-year-old men, who are perceived as too young to be guilty of crime, albeit in Revelation they are uniquely goodwilled. (They evidence a forerunner of the custom of the right of passage of Bar Mitsva.) In any case, these young men are explicitly called 'virgins' (Greek παρθενοι parthenoi), and the passage is rife with the Hellenistic (Platonic) spiritual ideals associated with virginity. -- Haldrik ( talk) 19:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
please define coitarche in this article since it links here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.28.36 ( talk) 02:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I am having serious issue with the retranslation of the etymological definition of the word "virgo" used on this page and its corresponding assumptions. Based on the 1st web link used at the bottom of the page which redirects one to the Online Etymological Dictionary, the definition of the word "virgo" is a "maiden, unwedded girl or woman". This gives no indication of the specific age (it covers all ages maiden/girl - woman), or their respective sexual experience. I feel this is important to note, as there is an understanding in ancient cultures that a "woman unto herself", ie not being possesed by family or husband, was considered a "virgin", and it is believed in many circles that these women were actually in service to goddess worshipping temples, and therefore did not need a husband to care for them.
Even if the group writing this entry disagree with this view, I believe in the service of impartiality and it being a "-pedia" of information, it is important to give ALL the aspects information connected to a subject and let the reader do her/his own research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilithgrrl ( talk • contribs) 23:25, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia is excellent on this topic. Augustine and Aquinas are also excellent. The western traditions regarding virginity are very easy to recover with these superb sources. Thanks for pointing us to what ought to have been an obvious place to start. Alastair Haines ( talk) 07:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to discuss the New Testament references relevant to a recent editors proposed improvements. There's more space to discuss these through to agreement at this page, than in edit notes. Please drop a line. :) Alastair Haines ( talk) 14:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I did leave you a message on your talk page. The original greek uses the term "Sodomites". Interpretation of that has been controversial, and there is no common agreement. As 1st Corinthinans is cited, we should remain faithful to it. 1st Corinthinas was written iriginally in the Greek langage.
If we are citing 1 Corinthians, (6:9 apparently) we should do so accurately, and not give one editors personal interpretation. The reader can understand that the citation was against sodomites (the act of sodomy?) and interpret that according to their own personal convinctions, without us mis-interpreting for them.
The sin of the sodomites is interpreted by many people in many different ways. Here is one I googled [1] regardless of this persons view, it is obviously open to wide interpretation, and few people interpret that to mean "homosexual intercourse". The most commonly intrepreted perspective of biblical scholars seem to be that Sodomy at that time referred to immorality, idolatry and possibly bestiality (intercourse with animals, as part of idolatry worship). Regardless, if we use the original greek translation, and let each individual choose their own interpretation, we do no disservice, and risk no mis-interpretation.
1 Corinthians 6:9 [2] 9 Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus h ouk oidate oti adikoi basileian qeou ou klhronomhsousin mh planasqe oute pornoi oute eidwlolatrai oute moicoi oute malakoi oute arsenokoitai
Latin Vulgate 6:9 an nescitis quia iniqui regnum Dei non possidebunt nolite errare neque fornicarii neque idolis servientes neque adulteri
King James Version 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Bible in Basic English 6:9 Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,
Weymouth New Testament 6:9 Do you not know that unrighteous men will not inherit God's Kingdom? Cherish no delusion here. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor any who are guilty of unnatural crime,
Young's Literal Translation 6:9 have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
Atom ( talk) 16:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Just dropping a note to alert any regular page watchers that Abtract stalks me to various pages and deletes anything he thinks he can make others believe could be questionable. He's occasionally moderately clever about it, but this is not one of those occasions. POV requires addition to articles, not subtraction. If only one POV is documented, the others need to be. In this case Abtract's only made work for himself. He will need to provide a source for an alternative POV to prove that he is not guilty of gaming the system. If he can't source an alternative POV, then he has to admit he had no grounds for reversion except hounding yours truly. Normally I'm too kind to confront him as directly as this, but after six months and giving him chances all the way to ArbCom, my patience and his luck have just run out.
Enjoy Wiki, friends, but don't make hounding other editors one of your joys.
What are we going to do about Abtract? Nothing! Even though the longer he spends picking a target sentence or paragraph, the longer it takes to see through him, we can still see through him faster than he can select his target. Restoration is the work of a moment. The longer he targets the work of one editor, the more clearly he is exposed.
Please cite your sources that tell us that chastity is improperly discussed in other academic literature. Please tell us who criticises DM Buss and colleagues who make psychological connections between viriginity and chastity. My tone probably won't win you over as a friend, but it will hardly lose me one, will it? Alastair Haines ( talk) 10:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Chastity is a near synonym of virginity, [1] the distinction being that chastity views sexual integrity in terms of faithfulness to a spouse, rather than as absolute inexperience. Sexual jealousy is a recurrent theme throughout the history of literature. Virginity derives its significance from this context, because it distinguishes between unmarried women who have had no sexual partners and those who have.
My objection to this paragraph is very simple - after the seventh word (virginity) it is entirely the personal viewpoint of the editor (whoever the original editor was); there is no citation for it. Even the start of this para is dubious because, although chastity can be synonymous with virginity it is more commonly used in a temporary sense (it can be turned on or off whereas virginity can only be turned off, so to speak). Chastity is not limited to faithfulness to a spouse, it can exist in isolation (without a spouse); virginity is not, of necessity, connected with marriage, though of course it has connotations to some men. I have no objection to such views (or counterviews) being included if they are shown to be reported views from reputable sources, but not when they are uncited as they were before I removed the para. It is not my task to give citations for removing material - challenged uncited material may be removed at will, putting it back requires citation - that is the wp way. Abtract ( talk) 19:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have a few moments, I will spell things out even more clearly.
Have I left out any options? Can you think of three stories involving sexual jealousy? What about films and songs? What were the primary sources? Can you think of people who may have commented on those texts? How many sources could be cited regarding sexual jealousy in literature? How much space do we have? What is the topic of the article? Alastair Haines ( talk) 09:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Reflection on "playful" challenges of text. When something that is essentially obvious is reverted, to restore it with a public explanation looks patronising. A very effective technique, were it permitted, of making someone else's life difficult would be to encourage everyone to challenge everything a certain person did, however reasonable it may appear. That way, if the challenges were dismissed people could cry "rudeness!" If the challenges are answered, they will also cry "rudeness!" Of course, the reality is that such "playfulness" deserves the dismissal or the patronising it receives. Alastair Haines ( talk) 09:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Response to Haines POV 1 - 5 above: this completely misses the point ... wp is not interested in your POV or mine but only in published POVs. The fact that Haines thinks that "all" think something is a good reason for the initial addition of text but it is not a justification for insisting on the continued inclusion of text. Once text has been challenged, either by its removal or by a "fact" tag , then it has to be justified, either by consensus or by suitable citations, before it is re-introduced into the article. Text may be challenged for a variety of reasons - thought to be incorrect (and uncited), considered dubious (and uncited), considered to be irelevant in the context of the article (even if cited), considered to be the personal opinion of the editor, considered to be the result of original research, and no doubt other reasons too. Once text has been challenged by removal, it should not be re-introduced until citations are found (if that was the original problem), or it has been discussed on the talk page and consensus reached, or even both. The general point to remember is that the burden of justification (citation or consensus or both) is on the editor wanting to include text that has been challenged by another editor; removal of text carries no such burden. Phrases like "They are common knowledge and uncontroversial" don't cut the mustard I'm afraid, see Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. Abtract ( talk) 13:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
In some cultures, women are not regarded as virgins after a sexual assault, but some people disavow this notion. There are also those who take this "spiritual" concept of virginity further, considering "born again virgins" to be virgins, regardless of their past sexual conduct. After they do this they wish to start a new life and be faithful to their love ones.
I have removed this section as there were no citations for it. Weasel words like "some cultures" and "some people" are not justification for statements that may be true but may not for all the reader knows. Abtract ( talk) 17:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
The first part is a fundamental of many societies, not just "some": sexual assault results in loss of virginity. Virginity in many cultures, especially a century ago, was a viewed as a valuable piece of property. Quickly looking at
[3] (Mario M. Ruiz, Virginity Violated: Sexual Assault and Respectability in Mid to Late-Nineteenth-Century Egypt,
Comparative Studies of South Asia, Africa and the Middle East, 2005
ISSN
1089-201X), it looks there may be cases in Egypt where virginity was stolen, and this was taken to the justice system in place, the offender was required to pay the father for the lost of his daughters virginity, as it depreciated her value. Looks interesting; will need to research this a bit more. I recall that
Jewish law has some words to say about non-consensual pre-marital sex.
However, modern studies show that most people do not hold this opinion in the practical sense. Here is an abstract that clearly points this out (I can provide a PDF if anyone doesnt believe me that the article doesnt back it up):
i.e. The social concept of virginity now has a conscience.
In regards to "born again virgins", there are a number of books in the non-academic arena, especially in the charismatic movement, but I cant put my hands on those quickly; one that has had a few reviews is The Cult of the Born Again Virgin: How Single Women Can Reclaim Their Sexual Power, by Wendy Keller - one review in Publishers Weekly said it is a "radical but well-argued book". A very detailed academic review of this concept can be found in: Jamie Mullaney Like A Virgin: Temptation, Resistance, and the Construction of Identities Based on “Not Doings”, Qualitative Sociology, Volume 24, Number 1 / June, 2001 doi: 10.1023/A:1026676613073
John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:35, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Another article I think will help is Stephanie R. Medley-Rath “Am I Still a Virgin?”: What Counts as Sex in 20 years of Seventeen, Sexuality & Culture, Volume 11, Number 2 / April, 2007 doi: 10.1007/s12119-007-9002-x. It looks at "letters to the editor" sent to the magazine as a way of looking at what acts cross the line of virginity. John Vandenberg ( chat) 02:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Attitudes regarding male virginity and female virginity have often diverged, however, usually placing greater emphasis on the latter, and even devaluing the former. In modern times it is not uncommon for either male or female virginity in adolescents and adults to be disparaged by peers, as a sign of immaturity. citation needed
I have removed this uncited section (note it was tagged in August and no citations have appeared. Abtract ( talk) 18:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Please refer to the above section where a study of US university students often associated virginity with the word "stigma". There is now a push in the other direction, with virginity becoming vogue again. Both of these have been studied in detail from many angles. John Vandenberg ( chat) 00:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
In Western marriage ceremonies, brides traditionally wear veils and white wedding dresses, which are believed by many people to be symbols of virginity. In fact, wearing white is a comparatively recent custom among western brides, who previously wore whatever colors they wished or simply their "best dress." Wearing white became a matter first of trendy fashion and then of custom and tradition only over the course of the 19th century.
I have rmoved this section also ... weasel words like "traditionally", "believed by many people", "in fact", and "became" do not make this factual (though of course it may be ... let's see the citations). Abtract ( talk) 18:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I see the fan club has arrived ... the correct way to handle content dispute is bold ... revert ... discuss. Bold ... revert ... revert is not the wp way, but it was predictable. I challenge each of the three sections above; I do not need citations for my challenge but those who want the text back in do need citations to support their view. Abtract ( talk) 21:22, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
As quoted on Wikipedia:Verifiabilty from Jimbo himself; if this doesn't convince you nothing will:
"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Abtract ( talk) 23:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
I'll not trouble to restore the text related to Islamic law regarding "marrying" a slave. This practice, and law regarding it, is also found in the Hebrew Bible. I think whoever provided the information was trying to clarify for a reader what the "boundaries" for legitimate sexual activity involve in Islam. It is relevant to virginity because, in fact, slightly different standards have been applied to what is considered lawful regarding women's sexuality when it comes to slaves, in some cultures and religions. A slave girl was not expected to be a virgin if she was released from her master's service. There's a suite of relevant follow-up legislation regarding such "harem" women that varies quite substantially across cultures—some appearing shockingly barbaric to modern tastes, others appearing to be relatively humane, at least in the context of the practice of other contemporary societies.
Although I suspect some editors may be trying in good faith to avoid bias and gathering text promoting an Islamic POV, I think it is worth mentioning that currently things look precisely the opposite. It looks as though the Islamic POV is being silenced, where in fact we need it expanded in order to be neutral in presenting all PsOV. Of course, just "any old" addition here or there will not help us in that section, but I'd recommend we err on the side of being generous and welcoming regarding contributions to the Islamic section until it is more developed. Alastair Haines ( talk) 01:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Chastity is a near synonym of virginity, [1] the distinction being that chastity views sexual integrity in terms of faithfulness to a spouse, rather than as absolute inexperience. Sexual jealousy is a recurrent theme throughout the history of literature. Virginity derives its significance from this context, because it distinguishes between unmarried women who have had no sexual partners and those who have.
This paragraph is incorrect. First, chastity is not "faithfulness to a spouse"; no spouse is needed to be chaste since chastity means (in this context) "abstention from sexual intercourse" (Collins Dictionary) - and it is quite possible to be unfaithful without sexual intercourse (although not as much fun). Second, virginity has nothing to do with being unmarried; it is quite possible to remain a virgin after marriage.
In addition, sexual jealousy may well be a "recurrent theme throughout the history of literature" but so what? It certainly does not "distinguish ... etc" because many technical virgins have had several sexual partners (or does "heavy petting" no longer take place?). This is a piece of original research that has no citation to back it up.
Although chastity and virginity are near synonyms linguistically, for the purpose of an encyclopedic article, they are quite different; chastity may have a distinct beginning and end whereas virginity can only have an end. This is a point worth making somewhere in the body of the article but not in the lead.
The whole paragraph is simply the opinion of its author(s) and has no place in this article. Unless someone comes up with a good reason for its inclusion, I shall be removing it shortly. Abtract ( talk) 16:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Some simple classics, much cited in tertiary sources.
Will look to incorporate these some time. Any comments? Alastair Haines ( talk) 03:13, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
How about a section on famous virgins!? I nominate the first one: Natalie Dylan. Raquel Baranow ( talk) 11:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
For those who died as such, you can add:
Both came out of unconsummated marriages (Anne to Henry VIII) and were never married to other men.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
208.54.83.52 (
talk)
10:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Before I discuss anything, I think we need to archive a few of the discussions here. It's getting REALLY long.
Anyways, I noticed a few discussion on homosexual virginity, though they went on for only one or two replies, as well as male virginity, "rape virginity", and so on. In the article it does have a very brief mention of "technical virginity", and I think it needs more. It was mentioned in a topic earlier, and this was proposed:
"There is some discussion of the issue under Technical virginity. The discussion does need to be organized better. If no one else does it, I'll get to it eventually. I think a possible logical framework could be:
In addition to perhaps the health / medical view point of virginity/sex, though I guess that one would depend on the country.
I don't have much else to say, this just needs to get re-discussed! -- Avalik ( talk) 10:36, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Here's an interesting definition from someone making a film documentary and is recruiting two virgins (male & female):
This site takes the "objective" view" to the max, and even throws contact with ambiguous genitals into the mix: [4]
Lesbian Virginity: In the Natalie Dylan article, "In 2004, a lesbian 18 year old student in England had sold her virginity online for £8,400.[9]" I.e., ppl considered her a virgin (I do).
Maybe we should just have a section about miscelaneous opinions & definitions of virgity with subcatagories or bullet paragraphs. There was a speaker I knew who always said, "A male virgin can do no wrong." I always laughed and puzzled over that 'cause I was a virgin at the time. Again, it gets back to the "innocents" of virgins.
Some say loss of virginity was what caused Adam & Eve to fall from God's grace (citation needed) . . . and they immediately knew they were naked.
When I was speaking at the University (I was speaking about the Holocaust and probably mentioned that I was a virgin), someone came up to me after and told me, "It doesn't matter if a woman loses her virginity, in men it's more important." I believe he was a Jew and this is what he learned in his culture. He really respected me for being a virgin! :) Raquel Baranow ( talk) 13:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Male virginity is less clear, as the whole thing behind it for women is the whole concept of being "untouched", especially in the deepest part of their anatomy. Men aren't really thought of as "touched", but are the ones doing the touching! Plus, don't forget that unless they had a C section, they did come out of woman. 24.184.144.240 ( talk) 21:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
As to the question above about whether or not rape counts as loss of virginity, that is a complicated question for sure. I mean, rape (I'm speaking vaginal rape in this instance) is sexual intercourse, after all, even though forced. But I am certain that most people would not consider their own rape (or even other people's) to have been "their first time" having sex. The anal sex/oral sex bit, as we know, would not be considered a loss of virginity to some people.
I feel that the Technical virginity section should be added back...but with better wording and valid sources, of course. Flyer22 ( talk) 23:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
What is meant by "rules about sexuality still apply" in the section "contemporary"? Debresser ( talk) 18:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Section first turned into paragraph of previous section, as per internal structure of artilce. Later removed completely as unsourced and unclear, while making grand statements. Debresser ( talk) 01:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I removed the following statement from the intro:
"A woman can also be classified as not a Virgin if she has pleasured herself."
Setting aside the coy euphemism "pleasured herself" (presumably, achieved orgasm through masturbation), this is such a minority view (unattributed!) that its placement in the first paragraph gives it vastly undue prominence. As far as I can see from skimming the article, this view is attributed only to the particular theology of the Catholic Church, which is explored at some length in its own section. Cynwolfe ( talk) 17:39, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I have no issue with the reference (because it is culturally significant), but I think the picture of the cherry is a little too much. Anyone agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.34.157 ( talk) 21:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The lead section, though appearing to be of about the right length, has the wrong content. Most of it is a rant about what other meanings the word virgin can have. I'm not saying that shouldn't be in the article, but it shouldn't be half the lead. To a close approximation, the lead should be a miniature version of the article, and if it was then you would expect the article to cover very little of the material it does. Richard001 ( talk) 08:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure how long the religion section should be, but it seems like a good idea to have a subarticle called virginity and religion/ religion and virginity, which would not be under the size constraints it is here. It would also allow this article to be a bit more selective and concise in dealing with this aspect of the topic. (Whether such an article would be considered a virgin birth is something we can leave for theologians to discuss.) Richard001 ( talk) 10:04, 7 September 2009 (UTC)