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Non-Proliferation Guy has all kinds of problems with the facts. Here are the original facts that he unreasonably keeps cutting out:
Right now the polling shows: 1. That most Americans support a strike on Iran (presumably to prevent it from getting a nuclear weapon) and 2. That most Americans think Iran already has a nuclear weapon. Which is to say, most Americans don't know what they're talking about. [1]
Peter Beinart's facts were powerfully and amply supplemented by the observations of Charles Simic in a
blog post today for The New York Review of Books:
"Widespread ignorance bordering on idiocy is our new national goal. It's no use pretending otherwise and telling us, as Thomas Friedman did in the Times a few days ago, that educated people are the nation’s most valuable resources. Sure, they are, but do we still want them? It doesn't look to me as if we do. The ideal citizen of a politically corrupt state, such as the one we now have, is a gullible dolt unable to tell truth from bullshit. . . . It took years of indifference and stupidity to make us as ignorant as we are today.
~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 23:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
References
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Views on the nuclear program of Iran's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "nti.org":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits have suggested that the U.S. government view now discounts the conclusions of the 2007 NIE, which said Iran ended its nuclear weapons program in 2003. The wording of the NIE has been criticized (with some justification) as misleading, but that's not what is at issue here. One edit cites Defense Secretary Panetta in 2009 saying that Iran is seeking a "nuclear weapons capability" and implying that this is inconsistent with the NIE. In fact, "nuclear weapons capability" is usually used in this context to refer to the capability to produce high-enriched uranium, a key ingredient in a nuclear weapon. Iran has persisted in developing its enrichment capabilities, as the 2007 NIE made clear. Saying Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons capability in no way contradicts the NIE.
There does seem to be one change in the U.S. intelligence assessment, which is reflected in the IAEA's November 2011 report on the possible military dimensions to Iran's nuclear program. According to this report, some of Iran's weapons-related R&D continued after the weapons design program was disbanded. Let's agree on a set of edits that make these points clear. NPguy ( talk) 02:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- Q: (off mic) on Israel-Iran issues, there's been an uptick in publicity in the Middle East about speculation that Israel is getting ready to attack Iran again. This periodically happens, obviously.
- On April -- on August , you were in Israel and you said we -- we need to exhaust every option, every effort before undertaking military action. Five days later, Michael Oren, the ambassador to Israel, wrote in the Wall Street Journal, "Time is dwindling. The window of opportunity that opened 20 years ago to stop their program is almost shut."
- At this point, what's your view here? Is Israel closer than ever before to undertaking unilateral strikes against Iran? And, General Dempsey, what's your latest thinking about the effectiveness of those types of strikes undertaken by a nation with non-stealthy aircraft and a limited number of bunker buster-type of weaponry?
- SEC. PANETTA: I've said this before; I'll say it now. I don't believe they've made a decision as to whether or not they will -- they will go in and attack Iran at this time. Obviously, they're an independent, they’re a sovereign country. They're ultimately make decisions based on what they think is in their national security interest. But I don't believe they've made that decision at this time.
- And with regards to, you know, the issue of where we're at from a diplomatic point of view, the reality is that we still think there is room to continue to negotiate. We're just -- these sanctions, the additional sanctions have been put in place. They're beginning to have an additional impact on top of the other sanctions that have been placed there. The international community is strongly unified in opposition to Iran developing any kind of nuclear weapon. And we are working together, both on the diplomatic side, as well as on the economic side, to apply sanctions.
- And I think the effort, you know, is one that the United States and the international community is going to continue to press, because as I said -- and I'll continue to repeat -- the prime minister of Israel said the same thing, that military -- any kind of military action ought to be the last alternative, not the first.
- Q: But when you've got the ambassador saying the window is almost shut, that implies they're at wit's end, almost, and that they're ready to strike.
- SEC. PANETTA: I mean, I -- you know, obviously, Israel has to respond to that question. But from our point of view, the window is still open to try to work towards a diplomatic solution.
- GEN. DEMPSEY: And militarily, my -- my assessment hasn't changed. And I want to make clear; I'm not privy to their planning. So what I'm telling you is based on what I know of their capabilities, and I may not know about all their capabilities, but I think that it's a fair characterization to say that they could delay, but not destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities.
"'U.S. officials would not directly comment on whether there was a new National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, which is a compilation of views of the various U.S. intelligence agencies."
This is tiresome. I responded to your comments on my talk page with a citation of official U.S. government source saying that the U.S. assessment had not changed. That should be sufficient to resolve the question. NPguy ( talk) 02:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to add more to the current views of Arab countries on Iran's nuclear program the article "The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits" talks about Qatar who for 30 years has had mutual tolerance with Iran ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012), is now faced with an uncertain relationship. For a long time Qatar has been against sanctions on Iran and instead has urged affording diplomacy enough time to guarantee the achievement of a peaceful solution("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). However, this stance has recently changed and instead has voted in favor of harsher restrictions in 2007 because of Western momentum ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). While Qatar wants to have a good relationship with Iran it will not favor it in global issues ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). This article shows the relationship between one of Iran's supposedly closest ally. It also, represent the global stance that is being taken against Iran's nuclear program.
Another article though not as current that represents specific Arab nations' views on Iran's nuclear program is Gulf-Iran. While it says most Arab nations view Iran's ambitions as a threat ("Gulf-Iran", 2011), the article lists off the policies each Arab nation would like to enact to lessen the tensions and why each nation feels threatened from a nuclear Iran. It also states the deterioration that has occurred between the Arab nations and Iran and how they are each accusing each other of trying to destabilize Arab regimes("Gulf-Iran", 2011). It gives specific assassination plots that each country has accused each other of and the specific relationship of Saudi Arabia and Iran that is not covered in the article.
The last article Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear programme, other issues gives an overview of the Arab League's joint view on Iran's nuclear development. It states that there needs to be a peaceful solution that will most likely occur with negotiations ("Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear :programme, other issues", 2008). The interview also points out its wish to have no nuclear weapons in the Middle East and still maintains that nuclear weapons are not the intent of Iran ("Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear :programme, other issues", 2008). It also helps clarifies Middle Eastern organization's stances and also provides actual talks with Iran. The article also gives more information on deterioration relationships and fully discusses the current relationship with most major Arab Nations and Iran.
References:
The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits.(2012, March 22). The Majalla.
Gulf-Iran.(2011, October 29). The Middle East Reporter (MER).
Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear programme, other issues.(2008, August 30). BBC Monitoring Middle East.
Ecarney4 ( talk) 05:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
This article is for the various views on Iran's nuclear program. It is not limited in scope to just countries. A representative of the United Nations who deals with the Middle East is certainly notable. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be in the article? -- Jethro B 21:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The "sic" added to the Netanyahu quote does not appear in the original source materiel. If you think it is appropriate to add an editorial comment (which originates with you, not the source) that says "what Netanyahu said here is wrong", then I suggest you need to review basic Wikipedia policies like WP:NOR and Wikipedia:Verifiability (sample relevant policy: "Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it"). If you agree taht such an editorial comment is not permissible under Wikipedia editing policies, that it should be clear that adding [sic] to say the same thing is just as impermissible. Brad Dyer ( talk)
I know exactly what [sic] means, I just think you are using it inappropriately. Are you using it to indicate a translation error? what is the original wording, then? Brad Dyer ( talk) 23:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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Non-Proliferation Guy has all kinds of problems with the facts. Here are the original facts that he unreasonably keeps cutting out:
Right now the polling shows: 1. That most Americans support a strike on Iran (presumably to prevent it from getting a nuclear weapon) and 2. That most Americans think Iran already has a nuclear weapon. Which is to say, most Americans don't know what they're talking about. [1]
Peter Beinart's facts were powerfully and amply supplemented by the observations of Charles Simic in a
blog post today for The New York Review of Books:
"Widespread ignorance bordering on idiocy is our new national goal. It's no use pretending otherwise and telling us, as Thomas Friedman did in the Times a few days ago, that educated people are the nation’s most valuable resources. Sure, they are, but do we still want them? It doesn't look to me as if we do. The ideal citizen of a politically corrupt state, such as the one we now have, is a gullible dolt unable to tell truth from bullshit. . . . It took years of indifference and stupidity to make us as ignorant as we are today.
~ Iloveandrea ( talk) 23:33, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
References
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Views on the nuclear program of Iran's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "nti.org":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits have suggested that the U.S. government view now discounts the conclusions of the 2007 NIE, which said Iran ended its nuclear weapons program in 2003. The wording of the NIE has been criticized (with some justification) as misleading, but that's not what is at issue here. One edit cites Defense Secretary Panetta in 2009 saying that Iran is seeking a "nuclear weapons capability" and implying that this is inconsistent with the NIE. In fact, "nuclear weapons capability" is usually used in this context to refer to the capability to produce high-enriched uranium, a key ingredient in a nuclear weapon. Iran has persisted in developing its enrichment capabilities, as the 2007 NIE made clear. Saying Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapons capability in no way contradicts the NIE.
There does seem to be one change in the U.S. intelligence assessment, which is reflected in the IAEA's November 2011 report on the possible military dimensions to Iran's nuclear program. According to this report, some of Iran's weapons-related R&D continued after the weapons design program was disbanded. Let's agree on a set of edits that make these points clear. NPguy ( talk) 02:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
- Q: (off mic) on Israel-Iran issues, there's been an uptick in publicity in the Middle East about speculation that Israel is getting ready to attack Iran again. This periodically happens, obviously.
- On April -- on August , you were in Israel and you said we -- we need to exhaust every option, every effort before undertaking military action. Five days later, Michael Oren, the ambassador to Israel, wrote in the Wall Street Journal, "Time is dwindling. The window of opportunity that opened 20 years ago to stop their program is almost shut."
- At this point, what's your view here? Is Israel closer than ever before to undertaking unilateral strikes against Iran? And, General Dempsey, what's your latest thinking about the effectiveness of those types of strikes undertaken by a nation with non-stealthy aircraft and a limited number of bunker buster-type of weaponry?
- SEC. PANETTA: I've said this before; I'll say it now. I don't believe they've made a decision as to whether or not they will -- they will go in and attack Iran at this time. Obviously, they're an independent, they’re a sovereign country. They're ultimately make decisions based on what they think is in their national security interest. But I don't believe they've made that decision at this time.
- And with regards to, you know, the issue of where we're at from a diplomatic point of view, the reality is that we still think there is room to continue to negotiate. We're just -- these sanctions, the additional sanctions have been put in place. They're beginning to have an additional impact on top of the other sanctions that have been placed there. The international community is strongly unified in opposition to Iran developing any kind of nuclear weapon. And we are working together, both on the diplomatic side, as well as on the economic side, to apply sanctions.
- And I think the effort, you know, is one that the United States and the international community is going to continue to press, because as I said -- and I'll continue to repeat -- the prime minister of Israel said the same thing, that military -- any kind of military action ought to be the last alternative, not the first.
- Q: But when you've got the ambassador saying the window is almost shut, that implies they're at wit's end, almost, and that they're ready to strike.
- SEC. PANETTA: I mean, I -- you know, obviously, Israel has to respond to that question. But from our point of view, the window is still open to try to work towards a diplomatic solution.
- GEN. DEMPSEY: And militarily, my -- my assessment hasn't changed. And I want to make clear; I'm not privy to their planning. So what I'm telling you is based on what I know of their capabilities, and I may not know about all their capabilities, but I think that it's a fair characterization to say that they could delay, but not destroy Iran's nuclear capabilities.
"'U.S. officials would not directly comment on whether there was a new National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, which is a compilation of views of the various U.S. intelligence agencies."
This is tiresome. I responded to your comments on my talk page with a citation of official U.S. government source saying that the U.S. assessment had not changed. That should be sufficient to resolve the question. NPguy ( talk) 02:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Just to add more to the current views of Arab countries on Iran's nuclear program the article "The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits" talks about Qatar who for 30 years has had mutual tolerance with Iran ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012), is now faced with an uncertain relationship. For a long time Qatar has been against sanctions on Iran and instead has urged affording diplomacy enough time to guarantee the achievement of a peaceful solution("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). However, this stance has recently changed and instead has voted in favor of harsher restrictions in 2007 because of Western momentum ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). While Qatar wants to have a good relationship with Iran it will not favor it in global issues ("The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits", 2012). This article shows the relationship between one of Iran's supposedly closest ally. It also, represent the global stance that is being taken against Iran's nuclear program.
Another article though not as current that represents specific Arab nations' views on Iran's nuclear program is Gulf-Iran. While it says most Arab nations view Iran's ambitions as a threat ("Gulf-Iran", 2011), the article lists off the policies each Arab nation would like to enact to lessen the tensions and why each nation feels threatened from a nuclear Iran. It also states the deterioration that has occurred between the Arab nations and Iran and how they are each accusing each other of trying to destabilize Arab regimes("Gulf-Iran", 2011). It gives specific assassination plots that each country has accused each other of and the specific relationship of Saudi Arabia and Iran that is not covered in the article.
The last article Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear programme, other issues gives an overview of the Arab League's joint view on Iran's nuclear development. It states that there needs to be a peaceful solution that will most likely occur with negotiations ("Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear :programme, other issues", 2008). The interview also points out its wish to have no nuclear weapons in the Middle East and still maintains that nuclear weapons are not the intent of Iran ("Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear :programme, other issues", 2008). It also helps clarifies Middle Eastern organization's stances and also provides actual talks with Iran. The article also gives more information on deterioration relationships and fully discusses the current relationship with most major Arab Nations and Iran.
References:
The Odd Couple Iran and Qatar: Two regional misfits.(2012, March 22). The Majalla.
Gulf-Iran.(2011, October 29). The Middle East Reporter (MER).
Arab League head interviewed on Iran's nuclear programme, other issues.(2008, August 30). BBC Monitoring Middle East.
Ecarney4 ( talk) 05:50, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
This article is for the various views on Iran's nuclear program. It is not limited in scope to just countries. A representative of the United Nations who deals with the Middle East is certainly notable. Is there any reason why this shouldn't be in the article? -- Jethro B 21:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The "sic" added to the Netanyahu quote does not appear in the original source materiel. If you think it is appropriate to add an editorial comment (which originates with you, not the source) that says "what Netanyahu said here is wrong", then I suggest you need to review basic Wikipedia policies like WP:NOR and Wikipedia:Verifiability (sample relevant policy: "Wikipedia's content is determined by previously published information rather than by the personal beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it"). If you agree taht such an editorial comment is not permissible under Wikipedia editing policies, that it should be clear that adding [sic] to say the same thing is just as impermissible. Brad Dyer ( talk)
I know exactly what [sic] means, I just think you are using it inappropriately. Are you using it to indicate a translation error? what is the original wording, then? Brad Dyer ( talk) 23:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
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