This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The essential problem with Cberlet's role, in editing the LaRouche articles, is that he is not participating as a Wikipedia editor, but to promote his own theories -- or, to use his words, "documenting my claims that LaRouche is a fascist, antisemitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, crackpot, and crook."
Here is the complete passage from LaRouche's speech, as quoted in EIR:
LaRouche is making the point that if public health officials cannot intervene to prevent someone from transmitting AIDS through sexual contact, because transmitting AIDS through sexual contact is considered a "civil right," then the same illogic could be used to justify all sorts of violent crimes, even those perpetrated by homophobes. However, Berlet initially quoted only the last two paragraphs, in order to suggest that LaRouche was in fact endorsing violent crimes perpetrated by homophobes. To to make certain that the Wikipedia reader would arrive at that mistaken conclusion, Berlet added his own explanation: "He has called for draconian measures against persons with AIDS, and scoffed at civil liberties and civil rights concerns, writing that people who physically attack gay people are merely exercising their civil rights." This is, as I hope other editors can see by looking at the context, a deliberate misrepresentation. SlimVirgin came obsequiously to Cberlet's defense ("You asked him for the context of the gay quote, which he gave." In fact, he didn't. He gave a citation, so that I could laboriously look it up and transcribe it.) Later, Berlet attempted to salvage the situation by adding yet another out-of-context paragraph, the first one, without providing a (...) to indicated that he had omitted the second one. -- HK 01:39, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
While it is useful for us editors to review the context of a direct quotation, this Wikipedia article is not a compendium of source material. Quotes that are more than a short paragraph in length belong on Wikisource. If the context modifies the meaning, than it can be summarized. In the case of the Baseball bats & gays quote, I suggest that it can be boiled down like this:
In a speech printed in EIR on the topic of fighting AIDS, LaRouche said:
I don't think it's necessary to include hundred of words just to show that he has endorsed violence against gays. - Willmcw 02:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think using just the short quote arguably makes it look even worse. The quote is fine as it is, in my view. It was two paras; Herschel provided a third, so now it's three. The extra paras he's provided today don't change the meaning. Will, if you want to change it back to just that one para that you suggest, it's fine by me so long as we reach an agreement and all stick to it. Cberlet, please use ellipsis (...) if you're leaving words out or skipping to another paragraph just for clarification purposes. Herschel, I know what the quote meant. The context you provide doesn't change the meaning. And stop insulting me. What with your insults to Cberlet, your use of his name when asked not to, your insults of me, your promotion of Lyndon LaRouche, and your attempts to insert pro-LaRouche material into Chip Berlet and Dennis King which are not "closely related" articles, anyone who wants to mount an ArbCom case against you will not be short of material. SlimVirgin 02:32, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Illionis Attorney General's office letter Full cites to articles and editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times [1]
Creating a Republican Labor Party (democracy quote) antigay quote in LaRouchite Illinois Tribunal [2] -- Cberlet 02:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Chip. As far as I'm concerned, you've done more than enough. You and Will can decide how much of the quote to use. I would like to see the two paras you first inserted, or the three that are currently there, but if you and Will want just one, that's fine too. What other issues are there to sort out here?
Herschel, I feel you and Weed need to stop editing these pages, because this is causing a lot of disruption and unnecessary work. If we were to ask the ArbCom, I believe they would agree and would impose it on you, because they were only one vote short of that before, the ArbCom has changed quite significantly since then; and you have caused quite a bit of disruption since that time. For this reason, I'm asking you to impose the restriction on yourselves voluntarily. I'm wondering whether you could find another editor to, as it were, look out for LaRouche's interests on your behalf, but without actually being a LaRouche member or supporter. Would that work for you, assuming we could find someone? I'm making this proposal as an attempt at dispute resolution, which all parties are required to do before approaching the ArbCom. SlimVirgin 03:00, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Those links make the other quotes fine by me too. Also Herschel, I'm correcting what I wrote above: when I suggested "an editor to look out for LaRouche's interests," I meant to say Wikipedia's interests and the NPOV policy, and to make sure that what is written is accurate, instead of you doing it. It could be an editor of your choice, so long as that person agrees (obviously) and isn't associated with the LaRouche organization. SlimVirgin 05:04, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
The idea of having an ombudsman of sorts for these pages is in fact rather attractive to me, since I work full time and it is very burdensome to attempt to respond to the hundreds of edits which SlimVirgin in particular is making. However, I think the idea is problematic, because the job would require very extensive knowledge of the history of LaRouche and his ideas, and as Snowspinner has pointed out, there are no neutral sources.
Additionally, for the idea to work, SlimVirgin and CBerlet, whose POV is every bit as partisan as mine, would necessarily also have to agree to withdraw.
Frankly, I was satisfied, at the conclusion of the last round of POV wars with AndyL, that the LaRouche articles had attained NPOV status. It might be useful for editors to go back and look at the mid-October versions. -- HK 15:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I didn't suggest an obmudsman. You already had that with Snowspinner and it didn't work. The idea of mediation in Wikipedia is to find a compromise between the two parties. That can't work in the case of material published by the LaRouche organization, or edits made without references by LaRouche supporters, because if something is false, it's false. An arrangement only to insert 50 per cent of it is nonsense. That's why all the LaRouche articles read so badly. I suggested that you appoint an advocate for yourself, which is a different proposition. But as you've turned it down on the grounds that no one, in your view, is knowledgeable enough, and no one is neutral, we can move on. Please act on Cberlet's request to stop editing the other LaRouche articles until we've reached an agreement on this one. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 21:18, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Chip, your information about LaRouche is much appreciated. The only thing I would caution against is appearing to be self-promoting, so it would be helpful if criticism of LaRouche came mostly from other published sources. Using quotes from LaRouche, as you've been doing, is the best evidence of his views, of course. I would also say that it isn't necessary to rehash every little point. The page is 7,088 words, which is too long, so it needs to be cut, in my view. I feel the John Train Salon claims have caused a problem, because Berlet has the right to refute them as he's being accused; and the refutation is involving reference to earlier Berlet articles and their connection to the LaRouche conviction, a connection Herschel and Weed are objecting to. Therefore, I suggest we either delete or reduce the John Train allegations, and not bother to refute them; do a general copy edit for better English, then stop editing this page. Is that agreed? Does anyone have other issues? SlimVirgin 22:20, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
I still have one issue relating to the question of whether or not LaRouche has ever bashed democracy. I provided one quote, which has been contested as to meaning. I would appreciate it if HK would respond to this quote. What does this mean to you HK?
Doesn't this bash democracy?-- Cberlet 23:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I'm having trouble finding material in the archives. You seem to have moved a lot of material and installed it elsewhere out of context. For example, can you tell me what happened to the following, and why you moved it? On August 19, you deleted this discussion [6] about LaRouche's alleged Holocaust denial from Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues and moved it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 [7]. Then on October 11, you moved the entire Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1, [8] which makes me wonder why you extracted the Holocaust denial discussion and moved it separately. You later moved Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4, where it is out of context and I can't find the Holocaust denial discussion.
There is some discussion about Holocaust denial in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive7 and I've also looked through Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/fullarchive, but I still can't find this material. Could you let me know where you archived it please, and why you removed it from its context? I apologize if it's there and I have simply overlooked it. It's hard to be certain after looking at diffs for a couple of hours. I've restored it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues, and I've put Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 on the template too. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 10:39, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
HK continues to post self-serving responses to previous discussion into the interior of this page without leaving a note at the bottom. I was under the impression that we were being asked to make sure that any responses had to be either at the bottom of the page, or noted at the bottom of the page. If I am wrong, please advise me.
Also, I would lke to know which quote about democracy HK would consider a more accurate representation of LaRouche's views. The "episodic majorities" quote or the "periodic consultations" quote?
I have answered numerous questions from HK, I think it is fair that I ask HK to answer this question so we can begin to debate my interpretation of these quotes.-- Cberlet 17:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since Slim and CBerlet have complained when I post responses to questions directedly below the questions (as I believe is customary at wikipedia), I will post responses here.
-- HK 21:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
HK, I've read and re-read the "baseball bats & gays" quote and still believe that LaRouche is asserting that (children?) have the right to defend themselves against AIDS-infected pedofiles by beating gays with baseball bats. If other quotes from LaRouche were less homophobic it might be possible to consider it a slip of the tongue during what appears to be a rambling speech. But since he makes his animus clear, here and elsewhere, I think that I am interpreting it correctly. Is there additional context? Was this the end of the speech or did he speak more on the topic? I suppose we can take a vote of editors to see what the consensus is on the meaning if that is contentious. As I said before, I think that excerpting just the last couple of sentences is sufficient to avoid belaboring the issue. I think we should find a short quote from the gay community on how his policies have been regarded there. And a short quote from LaRouche showing that he really isn't a homophobe, if you can find one. That's all this article needs as far as these quotes go. Cheers, - Willmcw 23:57, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dan, you didn't say whose interpretation you disagreed with. I don't think I gave an interpretation, and I don't know whether the others did. Yes, it is clear that LaRouche is using irony, but it is not clear to what extent, and he makes no effort to make it clear, despite knowing (he must have known) that what he was saying was highly controversial. This is why I feel we should not just use the one paragraph about cricket bats but must use it in context - although not too long a context. LaRouche is comparing people with AIDS to people who carry axes or loaded guns; then he's saying we shouldn't be surprised if AIDS victims start being beaten up because government won't act to restrict them; but then goes further and seems to equate AIDS victims with gay people, then further still, with pederasts; and then talks about children's rights to attack pederasts. I think we should use the quote, not interpret it, and let the readers make up their own minds. SlimVirgin 10:09, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I saw you addressed my question on Talk:Lyndon LaRouche, but didn't answer it because I must have expressed it badly, so I'm clarifying below. Which page would you prefer to discuss this on to avoid cross-posting? SlimVirgin 23:32, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
The list was in fact displayed numerous times in the regular talk page. The idea of creating a seperate group of pages for discussion of the list came from User:MyRedDice, and I would suggest that you address your concerns to him. This is beginning to look like a tactic to simply overwhelm me with requests for this and that; I don't have the seemingly unlimited amounts of time to devote to Wikipedia that you do, and my priority is going to be to respond to POV edits from your team. -- HK 01:26, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've requested that the page be unprotected, because Herschelkrustofsky doesn't seem to be raising further objections to the validity of the gay quotes, and the other editors seem to agree that they are genuine. SlimVirgin 01:34, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Slim, Herschel. The "holocaust denial material" is at: Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/Jewish issues#Jewish_deaths_in_the_Holocaust and Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/Jewish issues#LaRouche,_Holocaust_Denial_and_anti-Semitism. I don't know what happened to it in the interim, but that's where I archived it. Martin 12:59, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also believe that Berlet quoted inaccurately, through fallacy of composition. The problem can be solved if the previous paragraph is included, as in This version of the article, so that it is clear that LaRouche is not endorsing violence against gays. Weed Harper 16:24, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
WH and CB, rather than the long quote now used (along with other too-long quotes), here is an excerpt from the portion provided by HK. Is it agreeable to both of you to use this instead?
To my eye this quotation is short and clear. Any objections? - Willmcw 19:28, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would accept Willmcm's quote without the ellipsis and without his editorial comment, which implies that the measures would have enacted mandatory quarantines, which is false. I would accept this:
I would also accept this formulation for the California voters guide:
I believe that the original had italics rather than brackets. I would recommend that the same basic formulation be used for Bruce Decker's comments if they indeed appeared in the voters' guide, and that the two opposing comments be juxtaposed.
Regarding the search for quotes: the basic problem arises from the fact that editor CBerlet, like his real-life counterpart, activist Chip Berlet, is not interested in presenting a neutral, informative, encyclopaedic account of this controversy. He wishes to promote his arcane theories about LaRouche, and thus must search for a quote that he hopes to "spin". If there are so many homophobic comments by LaRouche, I am certain that CBerlet could have found one that didn't have to be "cooked."
I note also DanKeshet's comments above; evidently he, too, "gets it." I would disagree, however, with Dan's assertion that LaRouche "writes as he speaks" (although he tends to use extremely elaborate constructions, whether writing or speaking.) In the disputed quote, you are reading a transcript of spoken remarks, and I'm sure that the lack of spoken affect makes the irony less obvious. But, Dan was able to understand it nevertheless. -- HK 21:49, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- HK 22:09, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First of all, there were two, identical initiatives, props. 64 and 69. Secondly, they were worded very carefully: they simply restored AIDS to its former position on the state list of communicable diseases, subject to public health law. Your quote may be from a law review, but it is speculative and wrong (and probably influenced by the propaganda spread by persons such as yourself). Quarantine would in fact be one of many options available to the health department, but I would not care to second guess them as to how they would proceed, were AIDS to be placed in their jurisdiction. -- HK 22:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here is a neutral source:
That provides plenty of neutral material.-- Cberlet 02:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
More Quotes for Balance
I think these need to be considered. -- Cberlet 02:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have found the full text of California Proposition 64 online (I believe from EIR). However, the text refers to two specific California state regulations, which I could not find. Does anybody know how to obtain an online version of those laws (which may by now have been revised or revoked)? I tried California findlaw but came up with nothing. DanKeshet 19:16, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
This reference "Administrative Code Title 17, Part 1, Chapter 4, Subchapter 1" may be to this section of the code: [14]. I can find many references to " Health and Safety Code Section 3123", such as in the section on "Typoid Fever" [15], but I cannot find the section itself. The sections appear to have been renumbered, but I can't tell whether section 3123 was repealed or just moved. (Here is the whole Health and Safety Code - no 3000s at all [16]) But again, for us to make our own determination of the hypothetical effect of this initiative would be original research. For this article, it is enough to say that opponents called it a quarantine effort and supporters denied that allegation. We can mention that other, contemporary writings of LaRouche support "isolation" of AIDS carriers. - Willmcw 23:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A good online source for LaRouche's writings and a vast collection of LaRouche- and LaRouche-movement multimedia content is the LaRouche Youth Movement website, especially Books and classics.
Thanks to Chip Berlet for posting the photostats of the New Solidarity article on his website, but what it reveals is that his edited version of the quotes is unacceptably misleading. Visitors to this talk page should take the trouble to compare the photostats [17] [18] [19] to the quotes he posted in the article [20]. For example, the omitting of the sentences "The impact of this pattern of developments on Britain's youth gangs of violence-prone football fans is predictable. One can read their general line of thinking in advance." By omitting these lines and cutting to "Since the idea of of touching the person of the carrier is abhorrent," Berlet makes it look like LaRouche is expressing his own views, instead of views that LaRouche is attributing to Britain's youth gangs. This sort of trick is sadly typical of the stuff on Berlet's site. Weed Harper 01:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Weed and HK have stated the following:
This is false and malicious. This is another in a long series of personal attacks that violate Wikipedia policy.
I am in the National Writers Union, have worked for unions, and was a shop steward in a union. I have worked with ethnic minorities ranging across the color line; and worked with trade unionists, white ethnics, and Blacks and other people of color, on the Harold Washington for Mayor campaign in Chicago. When PRA founder Jean Hardisty and I left Chicago, there was a small going away dinner attended by Mayor Washington who personally thanked us for our work exposing bigots like LaRouche. But then the LaRouchites wrote editorials blasting Washington using nasty and vicious language.
Have editors here at Wikipedia decided that repeated and flagrant violations of the policy on personal attacks do not apply to HK and Weed? When was this decision made? I have repeatedly been charged with inventing quotes. Then, when I post the context for the quotes, there is a demand for an image file. Then, when I post the image file, HK and Weed state that the text does not mean what 99.9% of the editors here at Wikipedia would consider a fair and accurate reflection of the views of LaRouche and the LaRouchites.
When are editors going to stand up against this?-- Cberlet 03:10, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From the archives [21]:
-- HK 15:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Berlet has added another quote from Berlet over at Lyndon LaRouche. I removed it. It is non-biographical, but perhaps would be appropriate for "Political views" when it is unprotected. I doubt it, however; Berlet should find a surrogate (there are some obvious candidates) instead of posting his own theories and attributing them to "critics", otherwise it looks like a clear case of "original research." Here is the passage in question:
We could spend a year talking about the article - let's get back to editing. I've prepared a short draft of a possible LaRouche/Gays/AIDS section at Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp. It is about a third the size of the original, and I hope we can keep it short (and later shorten the other sections too). May I suggest that we edit that version and once we've achieved consensus we can lift the protection and move it to the article? (I'm not sure that I've incorporated all the disucssion here). - Willmcw 01:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What's the consensus over this issue? Can the editors who agree with Will please say so here, so we can make a decision? SlimVirgin 18:28, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
(Sound of champagne cork popping) Looks like a deal! Does anyone mind if I request page unprotection? SlimVirgin 22:10, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
Weed, are there any specific issues you have with the draft on the /Temp page? - Willmcw 03:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Three people who share a POV is not "consensus editing." Other than Berlet saying that my alternate version is unacceptable to him, there has been no response to my proposed alternate version, let alone discussion "ad nauseum."
I have the following issues with the Slim/Will/Berlet version:
Actually, if the opening paragraphs were dropped, and the section simply began with "LaRouche activists formed", it would be relatively NPOV.
-- HK 16:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have proposed an alternate version, with the following modifications. It begins with a neutral version of the PANIC controversy, rather than the formulation by critics. I have dropped the Illinois Tribunal quote, for two reasons: 1) since there are quotes available from LaRouche himself, they should be preferred, and 2) I doubt whether the Tribunal is an authorized "LaRouche publication." Regarding Willmcm's version, it is not correct that LaRouche has "dropped AIDS as an issue." I have used a different section of the 1986 speech than proposed by Will or Slim, in order to keep it short, but it includes the word "faggots" which I hope will satisfy Will and Slim. -- HK 14:57, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to incorporate the discussion here in a new draft of a section on AIDS & Gays on the temp page, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp. It clocks in at just over 600 words. [Version B: 685 words] Any comments? - Willmcw 06:19, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) [- Willmcw 09:50, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)]
Originally I meant the section below under the horizontal rule to be part of this section of the discussion. I typed three dashes to indicate a long and complicated section. It was HK (Revision as of 21:41, 17 Jan 2005) that added a fourth dash to turn it into a horizontal rule that "isolated" and "quarantined" my comments. :-) I hope they will be considered anyway. -- Cberlet 23:13, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That works for me, I was more concerned about the suggestion that Prop. 64 represented the "Public Health" position. -- Cberlet 02:52, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Calling the LaRouchite approach to AIDS a "Public Health" approach contradicts the factual record. Prop. 64 had no support in the actual Public Health community:
Opponents of Proposition 64 included:
Organizations
California Medical Association California Nurses Association California Hospital Association California Public Health Officers Association American Practitioners In Infection Control California Psychiatric Association League of Women Voters National Organization for Women San Francisco Medical Society Alameda County Labor Council Service Employees International Union-State Council California Labor Federation AFL-CIO
Elected Officials: U.S. Senator Alan Cranston U.S. Senator Pete Wilson Lt. Governor Leo McCarthy Congressman Ed Zschau Congresswoman Sala Burton Congresswoman Barbara Boxer Congressman Tony Coelho Congressman Vic Fazio Congressman George Miller Congressman Don Edwards Congressman Henry Waxman Congressman Doug Bosco Mayor Tom Bradley, Los Angeles Mayor Dianne Feinstein, San Francisco Mayor Lionel Wilson, Oakland Mayor Tom McEnery, San Jose Mayor Anne Rudin, Sacramento Mayor Everett Souza, Santa Clara Mayor Carole Singer Peltz, Sausalito Mayor Gus Newport, Berkeley Vice Mayor Susan Hammer, San Jose
Added Comments:
The Illinois Tribunal was the official publication of the LaRouche organization in the state of Illinois. It is misleading to say that it was just published by LaRouche supporters. It is a way to distance the quote from the organization.
If we are going to keep cutting the most inflamatory quote from LaRouche about assaulting gay people, then we need to balance the attempt to soften what Prop 64 was about with this quote from the S.F. Examiner posted above:
Let's remember that at that point in time, the LaRouche group was claiming that AIDS was spread by insects. -- Cberlet 21:57, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think that much of the material that Berlet is introducing into the LaRouche articles should be considered Original Research, as in Wikipedia:No original research. He is taking theories which he invented and posted on his own website, and posting them here, even though they have not "become a permanent feature of the public landscape." As an example, at "Political Views", Berlet says that according to critics Matthew Lyons and (surprise!) Chip Berlet, LaRouche should be considered a neofascist according to the definition of palingenesis. The only person who has ever suggested a connection between LaRouche and palingenesis is (surprise!) Chip Berlet. Likewise, Berlet keeps trying to insert material from his website which is misleading, and I don't care if editor CBerlet feels insulted, the website is misleading. In the "Lyndon LaRouche" article, Berlet inserted a passage that I have now removed: In 1975 LaRouche denounced non- Western music (and other cultural forms) in China as "ideological relics," "barbarian", and "hideous muck." But if you follow the links to Berlet's website and scroll to the bottom of the page, you finally find the actual quote from LaRouche, which is a denunciation of the Cultural Revolution, not Chinese music. I agree with Herschel that material from Chip Berlet's website should be corroborated. -- Weed Harper 14:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::::Now we are having the same discussion on two pages...ported over from the Lyndon LaRouche page. If the pro-LaRouche editors are willing to stop editing that page until we finish this page, it would be a lot easier. I have already agreed to this idea.
Why not put all the quotes from Berlet in the Chip Berlet article and introduce them by saying, "Chip Berlet has produced many highly original, novel and downright peculiar theories about what Lyndon LaRouche actually believes, as opposed to what LaRouche says he believes. There is an ongoing dispute between Berlet and LaRouche about the nature of LaRouche's beliefs." -- HK 21:51, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Of course he has. But, I don't suggest that we put them in the Chip Berlet article. They should be discussed in this one. -- HK 17:51, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since the "LaRouche & AIDS" section seems to be nearly done, are there any other issues about this article that need to be resolved in order for the protection to be lifted? - Willmcw 20:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- Cberlet 22:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since there are still substantial issues, and they are not confined to one section, I'm copying the entire article onto the Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp page. Looking at the TOC of the 44k article, I wonder why the 'Core beliefs' and 'contrversial views' are in separate sections. Can we cut this down and reduce the duplication? This article is far too long, IMO. -Cheers, Willmcw 23:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I did not say the version you have chosen was a good improvement. (1) There was a section in the current article that CBerlet and I agreed with. HK didn't like it. (2) Even though HK is representing the views of a very tiny minority (read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), you created a temp page to find a compromise, and you incorporated some of HK's concerns. (3) I disagreed with your version. (4) CBerlet suggested another compromise version. I agreed with it. You agreed with it. We had reached a consensus. Page protection should have been lifted at that point, and we should have moved on. Instead (5), in response to input from Weed Harper, also representing a tiny minority view, you continued to change the draft to suit the LaRouchites.
You cannot now use that version as the starting point, and there's no point in getting into a revert war about it, because it will not last on the page itself. This is what happens when you compromise too much instead of sticking to Wikipedia's policies. What started off as a section on LaRouche and gays now barely mentions his views on gays. We should therefore start with a clean slate, and find a version that fairly represents what LaRouche has actually said, using some of the quotes Cberlet has supplied the contexts for, and not any editor's analysis. Alternatively, start with the version you, Cberlet and I agreed upon.
The one thing I do agree with you about is that this is a complete waste of time. Again, I urge you to read through the Template:LaRouche Talk archives. You will see that all of this has been discussed before. They wear editors down; cause editors to fall out, seeking to divide and rule; drive editors away entirely, then continue pursuing them around Wikipedia in other areas, trying to create disputes there too. In the seven months HK has been here, they have made four or five requests for mediation with different (very good, scholarly) editors, two requests for arbitration, and have caused one editor almost to leave Wikipedia completely. They insult and abuse editors who stand up to them, attacking anyone who shows knowledge of the LaRouche movement as an "anti-LaRouche activist." They have accused Cberlet of dishonesty by cooking quotes, and me of dishonesty by knowing they'd been cooked, but pretending otherwise. They are system gamers and what they're doing amounts to intellectual terrorism. I will not support it, even if I'm the only person left saying that. SlimVirgin 01:07, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It's been a while since I visited this page, and it has developed a farcical quality. I can't believe that Chip Berlet has to come to Wikipedia now to drum up business. That unnamed individual who supposedly underwrites Political Research Associates must be tightening the purse-strings. And, I am absolutely certain that SlimVirgin can see that Berlet cooked the quotes, but yet he treats him like the Professor fawning over Marlene Dietrich in "The Blue Angel." -- Caroline 21:21, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
SlimVirgin 10:58, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It would seem that most of Berlet's theories would belong in the third category. -- HK 20:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Let's start with this section:
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
We can do this!-- Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip, it's a good idea. What I'd suggest is to get a structure going first, and a rough estimate of desired length. Suggestion: Intro, Marxist period; Change of views, Conspiracy theories (issues like John Train Salon included here), Allegations of brainwashing, Gays and AIDS, Attitude toward Jews (including here the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry"), Attitude toward women; The LaRouche movement around the world (say something about the Schiller Institute and LYM, methods of recruitment, how many followers, how is movement financed). Then we can have LaRouche rebuttal sections, or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, so long as it doesn't lead to claim, counter-claim, and counter-counter etc. Suggest your own section headings if you want because you're the expert. I was thinking structure would be a good thing to pin down so we can pace ourselves in terms of word length, as we tackle each subject. SlimVirgin 04:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
If you think that I am going to accept the replacement of this article with a knock-off of Chip Berlet's web site, you are dreaming. I indicated that I would accept Willmcw's (relatively) neutral re-write of the AIDS section. It is a basis for discussion. A total re-write by Berlet is out of the question. -- HK 15:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I haven't "prevented them from being discussed" anywhere, but I agree that this is the appropriate location for such a discussion, except for how the movement finances itself, which is already discussed in Lyndon LaRouche. If you want to add more material there, I have no objection, provided that it comes from a reputable source. Meanwhile, I propose that we agree to use Will's AIDS section, and unprotect. -- HK 01:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS I propose we post it and move on to editing other sections. -- Cberlet 02:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking of this (feel free to change the names of the headers: I mean them here only as areas):
SlimVirgin 04:21, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. Weed Harper 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What about making temporary copies of both pages, and then moving blocks of text around until it looks reasonable, we reduce duplication, and only the most important and salient material is on the Lyndon LaRouche page? Can you make the Temp pages? Last time I made a mess of things.-- Cberlet 03:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
OK: Here are the first "sandbox" drafts of three pages, and their associated links:
Political views of Lyndon LaRouche
There are still some (((missing paragraphs))).--
Cberlet 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you try to replace a Wikipedia article with a Chip Berlet article, rest assured it will be reverted. -- 64.30.208.48 18:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications.
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Wikipedia under the Wikipedia:No original research guidelines. -- HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is at issue is not the NPOV policy, but the Wikipedia:No original research policy. -- HK 02:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. -- HK 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is another version of this article, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox, that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the Lyndon LaRouche bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, - Willmcw 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This has been the quietest talk page in Wikipedia for the last four months. Who'd have guessed that five months ago? When I merged in the VfDed articles I glanced over the article. It is the worst of all the LaRouche articles. No offense to any editor, but there are sections that have little or no apparent meaning. "LaRouche-Riemann Method", "Culture and identity" (what exactly is the point of that anecdote - that some people are more talented than others? How did LL "collaborate" with Brainin and why does it matter?) It is hard to discern, in some places, what the reception has been to his ideas, or which are the most important.
We'd started working on a major revision but we all may have had LaRouche-fatigue after the ArbCom matter was settled. It's time to finish the work, or at least make some more progress. This article is longer than his significance warrants, especially since it is overflow from other articles. There's lots of good information in it. Some parts were the result of contentious editing, but may seem unnecessary in six months later. Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox I'm going to start playing in the sandbox again. There are many notes from our previous editing to guide us. An early step will be to re-organize it into the most logical structure. All editors are welcome to contribute productively. Cheers, - Willmcw 05:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
I've just reverted User:The Platonist's addition of the LaRouche photograph with Martin Luther King. I did this because LaRouche was never actually photographed with Martin Luther King, and to reproduce this collage would be to publish a piece of LaRouche propaganda. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:40, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
What the dickens is the "sacralization of politics"? --Stain
I was wondering if somebody might be able to explain to me why there were reverts of the following paragraphs:
1:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this original paragraph was then the following added:
This ruling was in accordance to a U.S. Supream Court ruling that makes it clear that a public figue as a plaintiff must proofe that the opinion statet, even if untrue and harmful, was stated maliciously-with hate, dislike, intent and/or desire to harm the plaintiff. As long as this proposition can not be met the opinion is called "fair comment". That means the court did not qualify the statement of calling LaRouche an anti-Semite but judged if there was proof of mailcious intend etc. on the side of the defendend. The plaintiff in this case was LaRouche.
2:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this was then added:
Fair comment is a legal term used in defamation cases. It does not reflect the common language use of the words fair comment.
Both changes were reverted without diskussion.
In case number 2 it was reverted with out explanation just the statement of the reverting.
So if somebody could help me with creating a less controversial paragraph that includes the information of the legal term fair comment?
I notified both reverters...
-- Zirkon 13:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
In the mean time i have changed the paragraph to version nr.2.
-- Zirkon 16:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, that is very helpful. I forget that most people are not aware of this peculiarity of the New York State judiciary. Unless, of course, if they watch "Law and Order," in which case they see the signage for the trial courts list them as parts of the NY Supreme Court. Here is some text that may help put this issue of the judge's ruling in context:
So Judge Dontzin essentially ruled that as a public figure plaintiff, LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended.-- Cberlet 18:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
To explain how this works, I cite here two related aspects of what a public figure in the U.S. has to contend with in order to win a defamation case:
The statement from Judge Dontzin show elements of both, and since we cannot know what was in the judge's mind, we have to rely on just citing the "fair comment," statement, or include the longer quote in the article, which is what I would prefer.-- Cberlet 18:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the paragraph we might still have our differences and mediation might be nessasary, but this is the way things are and - considering your answers - will be.
However sometimes it is nessary to be pedantic,
after all nobody wants to misslead people,
which is the reason why this was and will not be pointless
nor will it be seen as an attempt to rewrite history.
But lets leave this for others to judge...
Willmcw would you like to comment?
SlimVirgin would you like to comment?
-- Zirkon 20:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Considering the posting of Mr. Berlet from 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC): I note that your concerns about "fair comment" have not been put to rest. I find that interesting. Therefore I believe I have to ask the following questions:
C: This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended"
I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. Do I have to assume you dont want to do point C?
About actual malice: I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of " fair comment" there are also logical reasons for not doing so. Would you please answer to this statement following your problems with "fair comment"?
4) Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite." ? Would you like to answer question Nr. 4 now Mr. Berlet?
I understand that reading through the whole thread is difficult for the casual reader i therefore will soon write a summary of the discussion so far. In doing so the questions asked to Mr. Berlet will be easier to put into a meaningfull context. And thank you Mr. Berlet we really did make progress today! Zirkon 23:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Zirkon 18:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Administrator SlimVirgin: Following your remarks on my Talk page I realise that there is a certain difficulty on your side in following my intentions. I therefore ask you to state the points you do not understand. I also would like to ask you to explain to me what you do mean with the following words: "...hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps)." I assume we will work through this together?
--
Zirkon
20:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
After Mr. Berlet had enough time to answer I shall proceed with pointing out the problems I have with Mr. Berlets remarks.
Quotes from Mr.Berlet are in quotation marks and itallic.
“Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:”
“I have rewritten the explanation of fair comment in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. “
"The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for [Political views of Lyndon LaRouche|Lyndon LaRouche] on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.”
“I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite.”
Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--Cberlet 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the article "Fair Comment":
“I note that Zirkon created a Wikipedia page on fair comment that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case.” Cberlet 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Zirkon 13:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
'Bold textSorry to add another layer of complexity to an already complex argument, but... Both arguments in this case are completely void because they are trying to imply that the court ruled on whether or not LaRouche's views were anti-semitic. They did not do this. The ruling that the court made was on the comment that LaRouche's views were anti-semitic, which they ruled was fair comment. When the British courts ruled on the Marquess of Queensbury's claims that Oscar Wilde was posing as a sodomite they did not have to establish that Wilde was or wasn't a sodomite, but merely that he may have appeared to be one or that such a comment did not damage Wilde's reputation. It is possible to see LaRouche as an anti-semite and it is also possible to see him as merely being highly critical of prominent Jews and Zionism as he is of many things. I'm personally of the view that LaRouche probably is an anti-semite, but the court ruling does nothing to support or detract from this. I hope that clears up a bit of confusion. - moodsformoderns
On October 18, Sean Black removed the word "obsessively" from the section called "Women and Feminism," with the memo "Rm POV word." On the same day, Cberlet put it back, with the memo "Restored word expressing opinion of critics." The following day, I went back to the Sean Black version, because his point seemed reasonable to me. I put as a memo "Who are these critics? Cite sources please." Minutes later, Cberlet put "obsessively" back, with the rather flippant memo, "or we could simply reinsert the word obsessively." What's going on here? As I understand it, the use of neutral language, and the citing of sources, are official Wikipedia policy. I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Wikipedia policy?
-- 80.74.131.252 01:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that you have responded to my request for a source by adding yet another quote from Chip Berlet. Aren't you just quoting yourself? It seems like you have an axe to grind. Also, another section of anonymous opinions that I removed with a request for a source was simply re-added by Snowspinner, with no source provided. At the top of this talk page it says:
Again I ask, is the way that this article is being handled consistant with Wikipedia policy? -- 80.74.131.252 15:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Chip Berlet is, it seems to me, a leading critic of LaRouche, so there is nothing wrong with quoting him as a critic of LaRouche. (Note: I am referring to quoting published works by him, rather than his work on wikipedia per se). john k 16:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's all true but one should take care not to privilege Chip as an editor. He still has to follow the rules (I'm not saying he hasn't). Chip should take care as well to recognise that he has a clear bias in this area, although I recognise that in this company asking that editors have an awareness of their own biases is going to fall on deaf ears. -- Grace Note.
Snowspinner's joke is funny. But that doesn't excuse him for putting in a quote, in quotation marks, with no source cited.
It seems to me that Lyndon LaRouche is not stingy with his opinions, he will talk to anyone who will listen. There are thousands of articles by him on the internet. But author/editor Chip Berlet says that he knows an anonymous person who says that LaRouche has opinions about the anus and the vagina, yadda yadda yadda, that have never been published, and he puts this in an encyclopedia article. This is not encyclopedia writing, this is tabloid journalism, and there is too much of it in this article, which is why I am putting up the announcement of disputed neutrality. -- 80.74.131.252 15:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
As far as I have been able to find out, no such ideas have ever been published by LaRouche, and this is supposed to be an article to inform people about LaRouche's views. I don't think this article is neutral under Wikipedia policy. I found that an example of things to be avoided at Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." I found seven examples of this in the article, usually with very inflammatory accusations. The readers of this article ought to know who is making these accusations. Also, there is one case where a critic other than Chip Berlet is identified, and that critic is Jean Hardisty. However, when I followed the link to Political Research Associates, I learned that she is a close collaborator with Chip Berlet. So it looks more and more like all the criticism in this article comes from a close knit group. There are other critics of LaRouche, like Michael Rubin and Robert Bartley, who are well known, but their opinions are not included in this article. I searched Google news for Chip Berlet and only got one hit. Again, this does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article; it should verifiably reflect broad based, main stream opinion, not the special theory of one person or group.-- 80.74.131.252 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
As the person who initially removed "obsessively", I'd like to say that I'm pleased with that bit as it is now- It's well cited, and clarified as the view of a prominent critic (Berlet). I'm in favor of removing the NPOV tag.-- Sean Black | Talk 22:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I put the NPOV announcement there because I saw too many anonymous opinions attributed to "critics," which is against Wikipedia policy as I understand it. I am in favor of there being criticism in the article, but anonymous criticism makes it look like propaganda.
Here are the opinions that I think should be attributed. I don't see why the authors of the article wouldn't want to simply put the attributions in. Then the article would be fine, and I would be in favor of removing the announcement.
I also have two questions for Chip Berlet regarding the sourcing of quotes attributed to LaRouche.
I am not looking for sympathy. I am pointing out what seem to me to be deviations from Wikipedia policy, as stated in Wikipedia:Cite sources and [Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms]]. That's all. -- 80.74.131.252 15:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering why it is taking so long to get a reply to my question about the anonymous opinions. Snowspinner, when I took out the unsourced quote "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination,"", it only took you 2 minutes to put it back in. Why is it taking you so long to explain why you think this is justified under Wikipedia policy?
-- 80.74.131.252 21:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I see than an editor has added the "totally dipsuted" and "original research" tags to this article. Can we please have the specific problems with this article which warrant those tags? Please note that published material by Berlet does not count as original research. Which factual matters are in dispute? Thanks, - Willmcw 21:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure. The Original Research page says "Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas" and some of Chip Berlet's arguments appear on his web site only, like the part where he says that when LaRouche attacks the policy of Maoism he is also attacking ancient China culture. But mainly I think that all the anonymous opinions which cannot be verified must be original research.-- 80.74.131.252 16:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me but I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that the anonymous opinions in this article are justified under Wikipedia rules? I went and read the article called "Chip Berlet." It seems that Chip Berlet has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. LaRouche too has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. However in the Wikipedia article on Chip Berlet each criticism is carefully attributed. There are no inflammatory accusations with no source to verify. Why should the article on Political views of LaRouche not be written to the same standard of quality? I don't see why the authors of this article would be unwilling to simply add sources for the anonymous quotes I listed on this page. -- 80.74.131.252 02:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I have listed them once before on this page. Here they are again. They cannot be verified.
-- 80.74.131.252 16:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I am mystified that you would insist that they are cited. For example:
Who are these "critics"? They are not named. What is the source for the quote "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," ? No publication is mentioned.
In each case where "critics" are mentioned in my list the critics are unindentified. Perhaps you don't understand what I am asking. If highly inflammatory accusations are being made, the reader should know who is making them. I am asking that the authors of the article identify the "critics."
This is the correct thing to do under Wikipedia policy. An example of an undesirable Weasel Term at at Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." -- 80.74.131.252 16:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I see that Cberlet has provided an attribution for one of the anonymous opinions. That is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I have looked at a variety of dispute notices and I am posting "neutrality disputed" on this article, because the remaining anonymous quotes suggest bias under the guideline of "avoid weasel terms." Snowspinner, if you believe that this is the wrong notice, I would appreciate it if you would suggest an alternative, rather than deleting it with a flippant comment. -- NathanDW 18:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Cberlet and Snowspinner have had plenty of time to provide citations for the anonymous opinions. Cberlet did provide a citation for one of them. If they do not want to provide citations for the other opinions, they should be removed. There is plenty of well-sourced criticism of LaRouche available, and I will substitute properly sourced criticism if the citations cannot be found for the unsourced criticism. -- NathanDW 02:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Sean Black, I am being patient, but I am not abandoning my request for neutrality, so please do not remove the announcement again until this has been worked out. -- NathanDW 16:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I read the articles on Wikipedia policy carefully before I attempted to make any edits. Does anyone else do this? Yesterday editor SlimVirgin deleted the neutrality disputed announcement from "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," without participating in the discussion on the talk page. If that editor had read the talk page, it would have been clear that there were serious reasons for the neutrality dispute. Then SlimVirgin simply deleted criticism from the "Chip Berlet" article, also without participating in the talk page. This seems like it could be considered biased editing.
Willmcw told me that I should put material about the John Train Salon in this article, so I will. -- NathanDW 06:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into Egypt and Sumeria (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the British Empiricists are supposedly an extension of the Venetian Dynasties (which ultimately links them to the Roman Empire).
He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize).
There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: Continental Rationalism) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not sure if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from remote viewing and other forms of ESP and intuition that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma.
Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on Gnosticism being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as inherantly incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on Platonism in which our substantial universe is at odds with The Form of Good). I agree that inherantly and ideally the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be Panentheism). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity).
Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (Children of Satan) alongside another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it). IdeArchos 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
IdeArchos 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have carefully read Wikipedia:Verifiability and I ask other editors to do the same. It says that statements which are not properly verified may be removed by any editor, especially if the article is about a living person. This article is one of several that make the claim that LaRouche says the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade. The only acceptable verification for this claim is a quote from LaRouche. Cberlet has attempted to use articles that he himself wrote as a source for this claim, but those articles also do not offer any documentation. If you say that LaRouche said it, you must demonstrate that LaRouche said it.
LaRouche has said many controversial things. I began reading Wikipedia some months ago because I was puzzled by things I read in his pamphlets. However, I am now more puzzled, because the Wikipedia articles seem to focus more on things that Chip Berlet claims that he said, but for which no evidence is presented. Isn't LaRouche controversial enough without embellishment by his critics? -- NathanDW 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
John Mintz saying that they believe it is no different than you saying they believe it. If a viewpoint is being attributed to LaRouche and/or his supporters, there must be a quote from LaRouche and/or his supporters. If no such quote exists -- and there are libraries of quotes from LaRouche, you have one yourself -- then we are simply looking at some critics maliciously circulating or repeating a false rumor. -- NathanDW 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with." While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Wikipedia, so be gentle. BrevisLux 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's Venitian/ Roman/ Egyptian claims, since according to him, this is where the whole British oligarchy emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that pagan materialism and Gnostic Manicheism hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality).
Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British.
Again thanks
IdeArchos 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I came here as a reader who was looking for critical analysis on LaRouche and his beliefs. I'm in no way a LaRouche supporter. I'm simply looking for information. What I've found here at this article is troubling. The fact that so many of the external links go to the website of Chip Berlet is quite distrubing. What's more disturbing is that many of the links to his site aren't included as a citation of what the views of LaRouche's critics are, but rather as a verification of what LaRouche's own views allegedly are. (Those sort citations should be made directly to LaRouche's own work or at least to a reputable news source that at least attempts to present issues with a neutral tone.) And the fact that Mr. Berlet has been quoted in some mainstream media articles does not mean that anything that he or his organization publishes becomes a reputable news and information source. What's even more disturbing is the fact that Mr. Berlet himself has been extensively editing this article. This allows him to use Wikipedia - with its large reader-base and its appearance of neutrality - as a mouth piece and soapbox to influence a much larger audience than his no-so-well-known website would be able to without Wikipedia. What's perhaps most disturbing is that - judging form the discussions on this and other talk pages - these issues have been raised repeatidly for quite some time now but little seems to have changed. Mr. Berlet apparently has the support of Slim Virgin and some other infulential people at Wikipedia, so he's been allowed to continue the practice of doing orginial research, publishing it on his own blog, and then including it here at Wikipedia. This situation needs to be honestly and openly addressed by the broader Wikipedia community - with people weighing in who don't have much in the way of prior association with either camp.
As for this article, I think it needs to be pretty much re-written. The resulting article will likely be a whole lot shorter if it is limited to more mainstream soruces. Neither Berlet and his allies' publications, nor LaRouche's are reputable news and information soruces, so citations to either should be kept at a minimum and limited to a verification of the *opinions* of both LaRouche and his critics. Facts should all be cited to mainstream media sources. Given that LaRouche is most often ignored by the mainstream media, there will probably be less extensive coverage, but that's ok. Wikipedia's coverage of individuals and their views should be proportionate to their relative notability. And while LaRouche certainly has some noteriety as an excentric fringe personality, he ranks pretty low on the notability scale compared to many, many others in American politics - most of whom have much less extensive coverage on Wikipedia. The best way to maintain Wikipedia's credibility, and to prevent these articles from being uesed as soapboxes by LaRouche's supporters *or* his opponents, is to limit their scope to what can be reasonably included under an honest interpretation of both the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia's "No Original Research" policy. AnonIPuser 20:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS - I look forward to responses from people who can honestly claim some real detachment on these issues. AnonIPuser 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This article should present LaRouche's ideals only. Critics can be placed in Critics of at the end in links. It should not be used by Cberlet or anyone, left or right to debate his views. FACTS, that is all that is important here for his political views. God knows, this man, is constantly being attacked here based on Berlet and Company's analysis alone; without outside (of PRA) analysis of Berlet and his motivations counterbalancing this. For example, the biography on LaRouche should not be a smear campaign against the man. This is an encyclopedia, not a political website. Every statement by him or about him does not beed explanation to the contrary. Critics of his biography, or especially here can be placed in the cites or links section or in a brief section at the bottom. Let's make this an honorable site and not an attack site on people and their beliefs. -- Northmeister 21:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's back up here. If AnonIPuser, Northmeister, NathanDW, and/or anyone else could tell us what specific problems you have with the article, and how you think they can be fixed, that would be very helpful.-- Sean Black (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin and Cberlet always respond to any criticism of their methods by accusing you of being a LaRouche supporter. It's like Bush accusing all his critics of being pro terrorist. -- NathanDW 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, again: Let's calm down our rhetoric. If you have specific complaints about the article, not the contributors, please list them here. Otherwise this just a flamewar that I will remove in due course.-- Sean Black (talk) 02:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have complaints Sean, but if I list them then I will only be attacked once again for doing so. My concern is mainly authenticity and multiple sources and the structure of this article. This article should be about beliefs that are POLITICAL, not beliefs that are personal to LaRouche or about out of context statements made that are not official beliefs. This should only be about those beliefs. Links for Critics of these beliefs should be listed. I'll start there. But like I said, the same tactic as was used above on NathanDW has been used on me...thu calling me a LaRouche supporter in an attempt to rid my edits (I am not associated with that organization, though I know of them and their work on history and economics is competent,) of use, because of the Wiki policy on using LaRouche material; that's despite the fact I never once use such material or said I was affiliated with this group. Lumping into a group I do not belong to is not right, nor is it on anyone. This is a witch-hunt and McCarthyism and I reported these tactics to the Board. -- Northmeister 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I restored the version with the above details. It is important first because the said person's including myself all agree as people have before agreed. This article is titled to much toward one particular perspective and using material that is from 'less than reputable sources'. The original questions of the argument are legitimate. I consider deletion of that material akin to covering up the points made. This is not so much an issue over Mr. Berlet, but over a credible encyclopedic article about Mr. LaRouche's political views. The objections to the article listed are well detailed above and in the past. These are legitimate complaints and should be heard...I will repost the most relevant complaints from above, a record needs kept on this witch-hunt going on and the use of Wiki-pedia in this manner. -- Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
POINTS concerning this article:
"I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Wikipedia policy?"
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
We can do this!-- Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)"
"except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to [[Lyndon LaRouche] by Slim Virgin"
I will stop here for my points, because the above says it all for me. These are legitimate points about this page and need addressing and not in a manner to discredit the messenger so to speak who brings these things up. I would ask others to put their contentions down straightly as I have done. I expect the above questions to be answered fairly. -- Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wish to also add each of the points made from PubliceEye website or those associated be backed up with other sources not associated with that website. Further the stuff on Gays on down needs to be deleted, as it is smear and contains nasty stuff like attributing that his wife left him so he became anti-feminist. This is POV and it is a nasty smear. This is not fit, nor the stuff below as it presently is written. Just provide FACTS of his political beliefs, no analysis of his beliefs. Let Berlet do that on his website, which can be provided as a link in a Critics of link section. The Fascism stuff needs reworking too, to start. -- Northmeister 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
What I see being raised in this discussion is that Chip Berlet has a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and that PRA should be considered a "self-published source." The policies you are raising ( WP:V) apply to him too. Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation." www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm -- NathanDW 01:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
You make a good point Phil and SlimVirgin your not neutral in this stuff as is obvious by your name calling above. I don't want this discussion to amount to who is more credible, I want a fair and honest report on Mr. LaRouches views. Such items as on his wife and Mr. Berlet's analysis that he became anti-feminist is outright wrong for this page. There is a difference between stated political views and the reasons behind them. The only man who knows why LaRouche thinks as he does is Mr. LaRouche, not Mr. Berlet or King or anyone else. They've written books about him from the fringe and the stuff added here to 'political' views are from their source material. Lyndon LaRouche was a political candidate for President and deserves mention in one article that is fair and accurate, with links to criticism of him going to his critics websites. The entire LaRouche article does not need to contain point counter point, smear, out of context statements used in a ill-gotten way, or other material from one group of individuals and association. Does that not make sense? I agree there are far to many articles on this website about him, there should be one and it should contain an honest biography and statement of his principles, with a link section to his critics. If a fringe organization such as Mr. Berlet's is allowed to publish their material on wikipedia it is only fair and honest to allow Mr. LaRouche's people to do the same. If PublicEye is allowed as a source, then it is only fair and honest to do the same for the Larouche websites. The most important thing for an encylopedia is accuracy and backup with other sources. So if material is used from either, backup sources from outside of their organization must be provided in lieu of their inclusion. This is fair, balanced, and neutral according to wiki policy. Further, individuals should not be allowed to accuse persons of being what they are not without evidence to the same. I find it very offensive that some of my edits in the past had been taken out claiming they were 'LaRouche ideas'. This type of thing was called a name once and condemned, namely McCarthyism and the man Dwight D. Eisenhower condemned it. That is what Mr. Berlet is engaged in if you go to his site; and that is what is currently going on here at Wikipedia. False accusations, stalking of individuals, making accusations as to the authenticity of Mr. LaRouches ideas base on Mr. Berlet and his associates alone. I do hope you see yourselve's for what your doing. This is my last statement on this. I will not edit this page however. I will leave that to people who know Mr. LaRouches ideas politically and who are credible on this subject. SlimVirgin, Will Beback, Cbertlet are all part of a clique out to ruin the reputation of wikipedia in the name of a witch-hunt using Chip Berlet's material alone. I will not participate in this and I CONDEMN it with every being of my SOUL. -- Northmeister 02:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. -- NathanDW 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Wikipedia policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. -- NathanDW 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
<--------I have read LaRouchite publications on a regular basis since 1975. I have interviewed scores of former members. I have interviewed dozens of critics of LaRouche. I have attended events and heard LaRouche speak in person. I gathered information from a wide vaiety of sources. Then I wrote articles and book chapters that were published. I have watched videos of LaRouche speeches. I read their websites. I study and write about fascism, conspiracism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and right-wing populism. What matters is that I did not self-published these articles and book chapters. They are in print, from whence they can be cited on Wikipedia. Much material that is damning to LaRouche on Wikipedia was produced as a result of LaRouche defenders claiming I or some other editor had misquoted LaRouche or taken his quotes out of context. This is not true. Either 1) edit using Wiki guidelines, 2) suggest an alternative wording for a sentence or paragraph backed by reputable published cites, or 3) stop wasting all of our time with vague complaints that are little more than personal attacks on me and my research. Edit or stop complaining. Please!-- Cberlet 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I found out about the Alexa test ( Wikipedia:Google_test#Alexa_test) which is supposed to help decide whether a website is a suitable source. I checked the Political Research Associates on the Alexa site www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=www.publiceye.org and it seems that this should not be considered a suitable source. -- NathanDW 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I checked that myself. Seems to me that there is a lot of stuff used by Political research that should not be. They should not be used because they do not have a high rating compared to EIR. -- IAMthatIAM 16:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia is in danger of showing a structural bias in the way it distributes accusations and counter-accusations about people across their respective entries. Most of the criticisms of LaRouche, which basically seem to me to boil down to slurs, smears and vague innuendo and insinuation, backed, if by anything, with tenuous quotes, should be briefly summarized in Larouche's article and fully documented in the entries' of the respective authors of those criticisms.
As it is, entries can be "philibustered" if a few extremely partisan editors show up and start demanding that every single, pedantic claim of theirs is inserted for "balance". Eventually these claims become the "debate" surrounding the subject, and this debate takes precedence to the subject itself.
There really is not a SINGLE piece of evidence in the article for any categorically anti-semitic statement made by Larouche, just vague innuendo. Concepts like "classical theories" of anti-semitism are utterly bogus. Debates about the nature of fascism have no intrinsic relevance to the article's subject and it seems to me are basically included, once again, as a form of innuendo.
Wikipedia ought to be an encyclopedia, and it can't selectively become a running blog on a political struggle on a message board with quasi-encyclopedic semantics.
Thankyou -- Tarma 2002 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've always thought there was something weird in the charge that LaRouche is anti-Semitic. For example, in this quote from Bartley, he says it is "overt anti-Semitism" that LaRouche uses the phrase "Children of Satan," but on the cover of the "Children of Satan" pamphlet they had a picture of Donald Rumsfeld, who wasn't Jewish last time I checked. Bartley's argument seems to be the same as that of Berlet in the Wikipedia article. Bartley also says (it is difficult to follow his logic) that this sort of overt anti-Semitism can be practiced by Jews. This reminds me of the very first time I ever heard of LaRouche, which was on a TV show Geraldo Rivera used to have back in the '80s. He interviewed a general who called the LaRouche organization "a bunch of anti-Semitic Jews," which I thought at the time was rather unusual. -- ManEatingDonut 13:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet, [31]
Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Wikipedia. -- NathanDW 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche. This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.-- Cberlet 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The essential problem with Cberlet's role, in editing the LaRouche articles, is that he is not participating as a Wikipedia editor, but to promote his own theories -- or, to use his words, "documenting my claims that LaRouche is a fascist, antisemitic, racist, sexist, homophobic, crackpot, and crook."
Here is the complete passage from LaRouche's speech, as quoted in EIR:
LaRouche is making the point that if public health officials cannot intervene to prevent someone from transmitting AIDS through sexual contact, because transmitting AIDS through sexual contact is considered a "civil right," then the same illogic could be used to justify all sorts of violent crimes, even those perpetrated by homophobes. However, Berlet initially quoted only the last two paragraphs, in order to suggest that LaRouche was in fact endorsing violent crimes perpetrated by homophobes. To to make certain that the Wikipedia reader would arrive at that mistaken conclusion, Berlet added his own explanation: "He has called for draconian measures against persons with AIDS, and scoffed at civil liberties and civil rights concerns, writing that people who physically attack gay people are merely exercising their civil rights." This is, as I hope other editors can see by looking at the context, a deliberate misrepresentation. SlimVirgin came obsequiously to Cberlet's defense ("You asked him for the context of the gay quote, which he gave." In fact, he didn't. He gave a citation, so that I could laboriously look it up and transcribe it.) Later, Berlet attempted to salvage the situation by adding yet another out-of-context paragraph, the first one, without providing a (...) to indicated that he had omitted the second one. -- HK 01:39, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
While it is useful for us editors to review the context of a direct quotation, this Wikipedia article is not a compendium of source material. Quotes that are more than a short paragraph in length belong on Wikisource. If the context modifies the meaning, than it can be summarized. In the case of the Baseball bats & gays quote, I suggest that it can be boiled down like this:
In a speech printed in EIR on the topic of fighting AIDS, LaRouche said:
I don't think it's necessary to include hundred of words just to show that he has endorsed violence against gays. - Willmcw 02:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think using just the short quote arguably makes it look even worse. The quote is fine as it is, in my view. It was two paras; Herschel provided a third, so now it's three. The extra paras he's provided today don't change the meaning. Will, if you want to change it back to just that one para that you suggest, it's fine by me so long as we reach an agreement and all stick to it. Cberlet, please use ellipsis (...) if you're leaving words out or skipping to another paragraph just for clarification purposes. Herschel, I know what the quote meant. The context you provide doesn't change the meaning. And stop insulting me. What with your insults to Cberlet, your use of his name when asked not to, your insults of me, your promotion of Lyndon LaRouche, and your attempts to insert pro-LaRouche material into Chip Berlet and Dennis King which are not "closely related" articles, anyone who wants to mount an ArbCom case against you will not be short of material. SlimVirgin 02:32, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Illionis Attorney General's office letter Full cites to articles and editorial in the Chicago Sun-Times [1]
Creating a Republican Labor Party (democracy quote) antigay quote in LaRouchite Illinois Tribunal [2] -- Cberlet 02:41, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, Chip. As far as I'm concerned, you've done more than enough. You and Will can decide how much of the quote to use. I would like to see the two paras you first inserted, or the three that are currently there, but if you and Will want just one, that's fine too. What other issues are there to sort out here?
Herschel, I feel you and Weed need to stop editing these pages, because this is causing a lot of disruption and unnecessary work. If we were to ask the ArbCom, I believe they would agree and would impose it on you, because they were only one vote short of that before, the ArbCom has changed quite significantly since then; and you have caused quite a bit of disruption since that time. For this reason, I'm asking you to impose the restriction on yourselves voluntarily. I'm wondering whether you could find another editor to, as it were, look out for LaRouche's interests on your behalf, but without actually being a LaRouche member or supporter. Would that work for you, assuming we could find someone? I'm making this proposal as an attempt at dispute resolution, which all parties are required to do before approaching the ArbCom. SlimVirgin 03:00, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Those links make the other quotes fine by me too. Also Herschel, I'm correcting what I wrote above: when I suggested "an editor to look out for LaRouche's interests," I meant to say Wikipedia's interests and the NPOV policy, and to make sure that what is written is accurate, instead of you doing it. It could be an editor of your choice, so long as that person agrees (obviously) and isn't associated with the LaRouche organization. SlimVirgin 05:04, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
The idea of having an ombudsman of sorts for these pages is in fact rather attractive to me, since I work full time and it is very burdensome to attempt to respond to the hundreds of edits which SlimVirgin in particular is making. However, I think the idea is problematic, because the job would require very extensive knowledge of the history of LaRouche and his ideas, and as Snowspinner has pointed out, there are no neutral sources.
Additionally, for the idea to work, SlimVirgin and CBerlet, whose POV is every bit as partisan as mine, would necessarily also have to agree to withdraw.
Frankly, I was satisfied, at the conclusion of the last round of POV wars with AndyL, that the LaRouche articles had attained NPOV status. It might be useful for editors to go back and look at the mid-October versions. -- HK 15:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I didn't suggest an obmudsman. You already had that with Snowspinner and it didn't work. The idea of mediation in Wikipedia is to find a compromise between the two parties. That can't work in the case of material published by the LaRouche organization, or edits made without references by LaRouche supporters, because if something is false, it's false. An arrangement only to insert 50 per cent of it is nonsense. That's why all the LaRouche articles read so badly. I suggested that you appoint an advocate for yourself, which is a different proposition. But as you've turned it down on the grounds that no one, in your view, is knowledgeable enough, and no one is neutral, we can move on. Please act on Cberlet's request to stop editing the other LaRouche articles until we've reached an agreement on this one. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 21:18, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
Chip, your information about LaRouche is much appreciated. The only thing I would caution against is appearing to be self-promoting, so it would be helpful if criticism of LaRouche came mostly from other published sources. Using quotes from LaRouche, as you've been doing, is the best evidence of his views, of course. I would also say that it isn't necessary to rehash every little point. The page is 7,088 words, which is too long, so it needs to be cut, in my view. I feel the John Train Salon claims have caused a problem, because Berlet has the right to refute them as he's being accused; and the refutation is involving reference to earlier Berlet articles and their connection to the LaRouche conviction, a connection Herschel and Weed are objecting to. Therefore, I suggest we either delete or reduce the John Train allegations, and not bother to refute them; do a general copy edit for better English, then stop editing this page. Is that agreed? Does anyone have other issues? SlimVirgin 22:20, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
I still have one issue relating to the question of whether or not LaRouche has ever bashed democracy. I provided one quote, which has been contested as to meaning. I would appreciate it if HK would respond to this quote. What does this mean to you HK?
Doesn't this bash democracy?-- Cberlet 23:09, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I'm having trouble finding material in the archives. You seem to have moved a lot of material and installed it elsewhere out of context. For example, can you tell me what happened to the following, and why you moved it? On August 19, you deleted this discussion [6] about LaRouche's alleged Holocaust denial from Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues and moved it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 [7]. Then on October 11, you moved the entire Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1, [8] which makes me wonder why you extracted the Holocaust denial discussion and moved it separately. You later moved Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive4, where it is out of context and I can't find the Holocaust denial discussion.
There is some discussion about Holocaust denial in Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/archive7 and I've also looked through Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/fullarchive, but I still can't find this material. Could you let me know where you archived it please, and why you removed it from its context? I apologize if it's there and I have simply overlooked it. It's hard to be certain after looking at diffs for a couple of hours. I've restored it to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues, and I've put Talk :Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List/archive1 on the template too. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 10:39, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
HK continues to post self-serving responses to previous discussion into the interior of this page without leaving a note at the bottom. I was under the impression that we were being asked to make sure that any responses had to be either at the bottom of the page, or noted at the bottom of the page. If I am wrong, please advise me.
Also, I would lke to know which quote about democracy HK would consider a more accurate representation of LaRouche's views. The "episodic majorities" quote or the "periodic consultations" quote?
I have answered numerous questions from HK, I think it is fair that I ask HK to answer this question so we can begin to debate my interpretation of these quotes.-- Cberlet 17:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since Slim and CBerlet have complained when I post responses to questions directedly below the questions (as I believe is customary at wikipedia), I will post responses here.
-- HK 21:49, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
HK, I've read and re-read the "baseball bats & gays" quote and still believe that LaRouche is asserting that (children?) have the right to defend themselves against AIDS-infected pedofiles by beating gays with baseball bats. If other quotes from LaRouche were less homophobic it might be possible to consider it a slip of the tongue during what appears to be a rambling speech. But since he makes his animus clear, here and elsewhere, I think that I am interpreting it correctly. Is there additional context? Was this the end of the speech or did he speak more on the topic? I suppose we can take a vote of editors to see what the consensus is on the meaning if that is contentious. As I said before, I think that excerpting just the last couple of sentences is sufficient to avoid belaboring the issue. I think we should find a short quote from the gay community on how his policies have been regarded there. And a short quote from LaRouche showing that he really isn't a homophobe, if you can find one. That's all this article needs as far as these quotes go. Cheers, - Willmcw 23:57, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Dan, you didn't say whose interpretation you disagreed with. I don't think I gave an interpretation, and I don't know whether the others did. Yes, it is clear that LaRouche is using irony, but it is not clear to what extent, and he makes no effort to make it clear, despite knowing (he must have known) that what he was saying was highly controversial. This is why I feel we should not just use the one paragraph about cricket bats but must use it in context - although not too long a context. LaRouche is comparing people with AIDS to people who carry axes or loaded guns; then he's saying we shouldn't be surprised if AIDS victims start being beaten up because government won't act to restrict them; but then goes further and seems to equate AIDS victims with gay people, then further still, with pederasts; and then talks about children's rights to attack pederasts. I think we should use the quote, not interpret it, and let the readers make up their own minds. SlimVirgin 10:09, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Herschel, I saw you addressed my question on Talk:Lyndon LaRouche, but didn't answer it because I must have expressed it badly, so I'm clarifying below. Which page would you prefer to discuss this on to avoid cross-posting? SlimVirgin 23:32, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)
The list was in fact displayed numerous times in the regular talk page. The idea of creating a seperate group of pages for discussion of the list came from User:MyRedDice, and I would suggest that you address your concerns to him. This is beginning to look like a tactic to simply overwhelm me with requests for this and that; I don't have the seemingly unlimited amounts of time to devote to Wikipedia that you do, and my priority is going to be to respond to POV edits from your team. -- HK 01:26, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've requested that the page be unprotected, because Herschelkrustofsky doesn't seem to be raising further objections to the validity of the gay quotes, and the other editors seem to agree that they are genuine. SlimVirgin 01:34, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)
Hi Slim, Herschel. The "holocaust denial material" is at: Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/Jewish issues#Jewish_deaths_in_the_Holocaust and Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/Jewish issues#LaRouche,_Holocaust_Denial_and_anti-Semitism. I don't know what happened to it in the interim, but that's where I archived it. Martin 12:59, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I also believe that Berlet quoted inaccurately, through fallacy of composition. The problem can be solved if the previous paragraph is included, as in This version of the article, so that it is clear that LaRouche is not endorsing violence against gays. Weed Harper 16:24, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
WH and CB, rather than the long quote now used (along with other too-long quotes), here is an excerpt from the portion provided by HK. Is it agreeable to both of you to use this instead?
To my eye this quotation is short and clear. Any objections? - Willmcw 19:28, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would accept Willmcm's quote without the ellipsis and without his editorial comment, which implies that the measures would have enacted mandatory quarantines, which is false. I would accept this:
I would also accept this formulation for the California voters guide:
I believe that the original had italics rather than brackets. I would recommend that the same basic formulation be used for Bruce Decker's comments if they indeed appeared in the voters' guide, and that the two opposing comments be juxtaposed.
Regarding the search for quotes: the basic problem arises from the fact that editor CBerlet, like his real-life counterpart, activist Chip Berlet, is not interested in presenting a neutral, informative, encyclopaedic account of this controversy. He wishes to promote his arcane theories about LaRouche, and thus must search for a quote that he hopes to "spin". If there are so many homophobic comments by LaRouche, I am certain that CBerlet could have found one that didn't have to be "cooked."
I note also DanKeshet's comments above; evidently he, too, "gets it." I would disagree, however, with Dan's assertion that LaRouche "writes as he speaks" (although he tends to use extremely elaborate constructions, whether writing or speaking.) In the disputed quote, you are reading a transcript of spoken remarks, and I'm sure that the lack of spoken affect makes the irony less obvious. But, Dan was able to understand it nevertheless. -- HK 21:49, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- HK 22:09, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
First of all, there were two, identical initiatives, props. 64 and 69. Secondly, they were worded very carefully: they simply restored AIDS to its former position on the state list of communicable diseases, subject to public health law. Your quote may be from a law review, but it is speculative and wrong (and probably influenced by the propaganda spread by persons such as yourself). Quarantine would in fact be one of many options available to the health department, but I would not care to second guess them as to how they would proceed, were AIDS to be placed in their jurisdiction. -- HK 22:38, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here is a neutral source:
That provides plenty of neutral material.-- Cberlet 02:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
More Quotes for Balance
I think these need to be considered. -- Cberlet 02:54, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have found the full text of California Proposition 64 online (I believe from EIR). However, the text refers to two specific California state regulations, which I could not find. Does anybody know how to obtain an online version of those laws (which may by now have been revised or revoked)? I tried California findlaw but came up with nothing. DanKeshet 19:16, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
This reference "Administrative Code Title 17, Part 1, Chapter 4, Subchapter 1" may be to this section of the code: [14]. I can find many references to " Health and Safety Code Section 3123", such as in the section on "Typoid Fever" [15], but I cannot find the section itself. The sections appear to have been renumbered, but I can't tell whether section 3123 was repealed or just moved. (Here is the whole Health and Safety Code - no 3000s at all [16]) But again, for us to make our own determination of the hypothetical effect of this initiative would be original research. For this article, it is enough to say that opponents called it a quarantine effort and supporters denied that allegation. We can mention that other, contemporary writings of LaRouche support "isolation" of AIDS carriers. - Willmcw 23:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A good online source for LaRouche's writings and a vast collection of LaRouche- and LaRouche-movement multimedia content is the LaRouche Youth Movement website, especially Books and classics.
Thanks to Chip Berlet for posting the photostats of the New Solidarity article on his website, but what it reveals is that his edited version of the quotes is unacceptably misleading. Visitors to this talk page should take the trouble to compare the photostats [17] [18] [19] to the quotes he posted in the article [20]. For example, the omitting of the sentences "The impact of this pattern of developments on Britain's youth gangs of violence-prone football fans is predictable. One can read their general line of thinking in advance." By omitting these lines and cutting to "Since the idea of of touching the person of the carrier is abhorrent," Berlet makes it look like LaRouche is expressing his own views, instead of views that LaRouche is attributing to Britain's youth gangs. This sort of trick is sadly typical of the stuff on Berlet's site. Weed Harper 01:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Weed and HK have stated the following:
This is false and malicious. This is another in a long series of personal attacks that violate Wikipedia policy.
I am in the National Writers Union, have worked for unions, and was a shop steward in a union. I have worked with ethnic minorities ranging across the color line; and worked with trade unionists, white ethnics, and Blacks and other people of color, on the Harold Washington for Mayor campaign in Chicago. When PRA founder Jean Hardisty and I left Chicago, there was a small going away dinner attended by Mayor Washington who personally thanked us for our work exposing bigots like LaRouche. But then the LaRouchites wrote editorials blasting Washington using nasty and vicious language.
Have editors here at Wikipedia decided that repeated and flagrant violations of the policy on personal attacks do not apply to HK and Weed? When was this decision made? I have repeatedly been charged with inventing quotes. Then, when I post the context for the quotes, there is a demand for an image file. Then, when I post the image file, HK and Weed state that the text does not mean what 99.9% of the editors here at Wikipedia would consider a fair and accurate reflection of the views of LaRouche and the LaRouchites.
When are editors going to stand up against this?-- Cberlet 03:10, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From the archives [21]:
-- HK 15:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Berlet has added another quote from Berlet over at Lyndon LaRouche. I removed it. It is non-biographical, but perhaps would be appropriate for "Political views" when it is unprotected. I doubt it, however; Berlet should find a surrogate (there are some obvious candidates) instead of posting his own theories and attributing them to "critics", otherwise it looks like a clear case of "original research." Here is the passage in question:
We could spend a year talking about the article - let's get back to editing. I've prepared a short draft of a possible LaRouche/Gays/AIDS section at Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp. It is about a third the size of the original, and I hope we can keep it short (and later shorten the other sections too). May I suggest that we edit that version and once we've achieved consensus we can lift the protection and move it to the article? (I'm not sure that I've incorporated all the disucssion here). - Willmcw 01:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What's the consensus over this issue? Can the editors who agree with Will please say so here, so we can make a decision? SlimVirgin 18:28, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
(Sound of champagne cork popping) Looks like a deal! Does anyone mind if I request page unprotection? SlimVirgin 22:10, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)
Weed, are there any specific issues you have with the draft on the /Temp page? - Willmcw 03:57, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Three people who share a POV is not "consensus editing." Other than Berlet saying that my alternate version is unacceptable to him, there has been no response to my proposed alternate version, let alone discussion "ad nauseum."
I have the following issues with the Slim/Will/Berlet version:
Actually, if the opening paragraphs were dropped, and the section simply began with "LaRouche activists formed", it would be relatively NPOV.
-- HK 16:46, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have proposed an alternate version, with the following modifications. It begins with a neutral version of the PANIC controversy, rather than the formulation by critics. I have dropped the Illinois Tribunal quote, for two reasons: 1) since there are quotes available from LaRouche himself, they should be preferred, and 2) I doubt whether the Tribunal is an authorized "LaRouche publication." Regarding Willmcm's version, it is not correct that LaRouche has "dropped AIDS as an issue." I have used a different section of the 1986 speech than proposed by Will or Slim, in order to keep it short, but it includes the word "faggots" which I hope will satisfy Will and Slim. -- HK 14:57, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to incorporate the discussion here in a new draft of a section on AIDS & Gays on the temp page, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp. It clocks in at just over 600 words. [Version B: 685 words] Any comments? - Willmcw 06:19, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) [- Willmcw 09:50, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)]
Originally I meant the section below under the horizontal rule to be part of this section of the discussion. I typed three dashes to indicate a long and complicated section. It was HK (Revision as of 21:41, 17 Jan 2005) that added a fourth dash to turn it into a horizontal rule that "isolated" and "quarantined" my comments. :-) I hope they will be considered anyway. -- Cberlet 23:13, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That works for me, I was more concerned about the suggestion that Prop. 64 represented the "Public Health" position. -- Cberlet 02:52, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Calling the LaRouchite approach to AIDS a "Public Health" approach contradicts the factual record. Prop. 64 had no support in the actual Public Health community:
Opponents of Proposition 64 included:
Organizations
California Medical Association California Nurses Association California Hospital Association California Public Health Officers Association American Practitioners In Infection Control California Psychiatric Association League of Women Voters National Organization for Women San Francisco Medical Society Alameda County Labor Council Service Employees International Union-State Council California Labor Federation AFL-CIO
Elected Officials: U.S. Senator Alan Cranston U.S. Senator Pete Wilson Lt. Governor Leo McCarthy Congressman Ed Zschau Congresswoman Sala Burton Congresswoman Barbara Boxer Congressman Tony Coelho Congressman Vic Fazio Congressman George Miller Congressman Don Edwards Congressman Henry Waxman Congressman Doug Bosco Mayor Tom Bradley, Los Angeles Mayor Dianne Feinstein, San Francisco Mayor Lionel Wilson, Oakland Mayor Tom McEnery, San Jose Mayor Anne Rudin, Sacramento Mayor Everett Souza, Santa Clara Mayor Carole Singer Peltz, Sausalito Mayor Gus Newport, Berkeley Vice Mayor Susan Hammer, San Jose
Added Comments:
The Illinois Tribunal was the official publication of the LaRouche organization in the state of Illinois. It is misleading to say that it was just published by LaRouche supporters. It is a way to distance the quote from the organization.
If we are going to keep cutting the most inflamatory quote from LaRouche about assaulting gay people, then we need to balance the attempt to soften what Prop 64 was about with this quote from the S.F. Examiner posted above:
Let's remember that at that point in time, the LaRouche group was claiming that AIDS was spread by insects. -- Cberlet 21:57, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think that much of the material that Berlet is introducing into the LaRouche articles should be considered Original Research, as in Wikipedia:No original research. He is taking theories which he invented and posted on his own website, and posting them here, even though they have not "become a permanent feature of the public landscape." As an example, at "Political Views", Berlet says that according to critics Matthew Lyons and (surprise!) Chip Berlet, LaRouche should be considered a neofascist according to the definition of palingenesis. The only person who has ever suggested a connection between LaRouche and palingenesis is (surprise!) Chip Berlet. Likewise, Berlet keeps trying to insert material from his website which is misleading, and I don't care if editor CBerlet feels insulted, the website is misleading. In the "Lyndon LaRouche" article, Berlet inserted a passage that I have now removed: In 1975 LaRouche denounced non- Western music (and other cultural forms) in China as "ideological relics," "barbarian", and "hideous muck." But if you follow the links to Berlet's website and scroll to the bottom of the page, you finally find the actual quote from LaRouche, which is a denunciation of the Cultural Revolution, not Chinese music. I agree with Herschel that material from Chip Berlet's website should be corroborated. -- Weed Harper 14:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::::Now we are having the same discussion on two pages...ported over from the Lyndon LaRouche page. If the pro-LaRouche editors are willing to stop editing that page until we finish this page, it would be a lot easier. I have already agreed to this idea.
Why not put all the quotes from Berlet in the Chip Berlet article and introduce them by saying, "Chip Berlet has produced many highly original, novel and downright peculiar theories about what Lyndon LaRouche actually believes, as opposed to what LaRouche says he believes. There is an ongoing dispute between Berlet and LaRouche about the nature of LaRouche's beliefs." -- HK 21:51, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Of course he has. But, I don't suggest that we put them in the Chip Berlet article. They should be discussed in this one. -- HK 17:51, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since the "LaRouche & AIDS" section seems to be nearly done, are there any other issues about this article that need to be resolved in order for the protection to be lifted? - Willmcw 20:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
-- Cberlet 22:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since there are still substantial issues, and they are not confined to one section, I'm copying the entire article onto the Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Temp page. Looking at the TOC of the 44k article, I wonder why the 'Core beliefs' and 'contrversial views' are in separate sections. Can we cut this down and reduce the duplication? This article is far too long, IMO. -Cheers, Willmcw 23:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I did not say the version you have chosen was a good improvement. (1) There was a section in the current article that CBerlet and I agreed with. HK didn't like it. (2) Even though HK is representing the views of a very tiny minority (read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), you created a temp page to find a compromise, and you incorporated some of HK's concerns. (3) I disagreed with your version. (4) CBerlet suggested another compromise version. I agreed with it. You agreed with it. We had reached a consensus. Page protection should have been lifted at that point, and we should have moved on. Instead (5), in response to input from Weed Harper, also representing a tiny minority view, you continued to change the draft to suit the LaRouchites.
You cannot now use that version as the starting point, and there's no point in getting into a revert war about it, because it will not last on the page itself. This is what happens when you compromise too much instead of sticking to Wikipedia's policies. What started off as a section on LaRouche and gays now barely mentions his views on gays. We should therefore start with a clean slate, and find a version that fairly represents what LaRouche has actually said, using some of the quotes Cberlet has supplied the contexts for, and not any editor's analysis. Alternatively, start with the version you, Cberlet and I agreed upon.
The one thing I do agree with you about is that this is a complete waste of time. Again, I urge you to read through the Template:LaRouche Talk archives. You will see that all of this has been discussed before. They wear editors down; cause editors to fall out, seeking to divide and rule; drive editors away entirely, then continue pursuing them around Wikipedia in other areas, trying to create disputes there too. In the seven months HK has been here, they have made four or five requests for mediation with different (very good, scholarly) editors, two requests for arbitration, and have caused one editor almost to leave Wikipedia completely. They insult and abuse editors who stand up to them, attacking anyone who shows knowledge of the LaRouche movement as an "anti-LaRouche activist." They have accused Cberlet of dishonesty by cooking quotes, and me of dishonesty by knowing they'd been cooked, but pretending otherwise. They are system gamers and what they're doing amounts to intellectual terrorism. I will not support it, even if I'm the only person left saying that. SlimVirgin 01:07, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It's been a while since I visited this page, and it has developed a farcical quality. I can't believe that Chip Berlet has to come to Wikipedia now to drum up business. That unnamed individual who supposedly underwrites Political Research Associates must be tightening the purse-strings. And, I am absolutely certain that SlimVirgin can see that Berlet cooked the quotes, but yet he treats him like the Professor fawning over Marlene Dietrich in "The Blue Angel." -- Caroline 21:21, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:
SlimVirgin 10:58, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
It would seem that most of Berlet's theories would belong in the third category. -- HK 20:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Let's start with this section:
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
We can do this!-- Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip, it's a good idea. What I'd suggest is to get a structure going first, and a rough estimate of desired length. Suggestion: Intro, Marxist period; Change of views, Conspiracy theories (issues like John Train Salon included here), Allegations of brainwashing, Gays and AIDS, Attitude toward Jews (including here the views about the British establishment and "international Jewry"), Attitude toward women; The LaRouche movement around the world (say something about the Schiller Institute and LYM, methods of recruitment, how many followers, how is movement financed). Then we can have LaRouche rebuttal sections, or we can intersperse LaRouche position throughout the text. I'd prefer the latter, so long as it doesn't lead to claim, counter-claim, and counter-counter etc. Suggest your own section headings if you want because you're the expert. I was thinking structure would be a good thing to pin down so we can pace ourselves in terms of word length, as we tackle each subject. SlimVirgin 04:22, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
If you think that I am going to accept the replacement of this article with a knock-off of Chip Berlet's web site, you are dreaming. I indicated that I would accept Willmcw's (relatively) neutral re-write of the AIDS section. It is a basis for discussion. A total re-write by Berlet is out of the question. -- HK 15:54, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I haven't "prevented them from being discussed" anywhere, but I agree that this is the appropriate location for such a discussion, except for how the movement finances itself, which is already discussed in Lyndon LaRouche. If you want to add more material there, I have no objection, provided that it comes from a reputable source. Meanwhile, I propose that we agree to use Will's AIDS section, and unprotect. -- HK 01:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Gays & AIDS I propose we post it and move on to editing other sections. -- Cberlet 02:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was thinking of this (feel free to change the names of the headers: I mean them here only as areas):
SlimVirgin 04:21, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
The issue of "cooked quotes" is essential to the question of whether Berlet's web site should be considered a reputable source. I have assembled the evidence on a special page: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Evidence of "cooked quotes". I have edited for clarity some material contributed by Herschel. Weed Harper 07:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I shortened Herschels "Anatomy of a cut and paste job", leaving out comments that I thought were unnecessary, and I put in the italic and bold formatting. Weed Harper 21:16, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What about making temporary copies of both pages, and then moving blocks of text around until it looks reasonable, we reduce duplication, and only the most important and salient material is on the Lyndon LaRouche page? Can you make the Temp pages? Last time I made a mess of things.-- Cberlet 03:52, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
OK: Here are the first "sandbox" drafts of three pages, and their associated links:
Political views of Lyndon LaRouche
There are still some (((missing paragraphs))).--
Cberlet 16:23, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
If you try to replace a Wikipedia article with a Chip Berlet article, rest assured it will be reverted. -- 64.30.208.48 18:50, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Chip Berlet AKA User:Cberlet has been systematically loading both Lyndon LaRouche and Political views of Lyndon LaRouche with quotes from articles that he has written. Between quotes from Chip and quotes from his siamese twin Dennis King, the articles resemble more and more an essay promoting their shared, idiosyncratic theories. The Slim 'n' Chip team has often attempted to justify CBerlet's edits by claiming that Berlet's material has appeared in "mainstream" publications.
Fine, then. As I indicate to Will above, I will not remove any quotes from Chip that have appeared in "mainstream", read "mass circulation" publications. That would include the publications Will asked about as examples: Time, the Washington Times, Washington Post, or New York Times. It would not include some publications that have served as a venue for the King/Berlet theories, such as High Times. It emphatically would not include leftist conspiracy-theory blog sites that are cloned from PRA.
In this way, the mass-circulation press can serve as sort of a "filter" to determine which of the King/Berlet theories are "mainstream", and which are esoteric, arcane, idiosyncratic, and generally unacceptable in Wikipedia under the Wikipedia:No original research guidelines. -- HK 16:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is at issue is not the NPOV policy, but the Wikipedia:No original research policy. -- HK 02:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Slim, your POV with regard to LaRouche is no mystery. Chip, it is the reputability and reliability of your organization that is being disputed. If you can find yourself quoted in a mass-circulation publication there will be no dispute. -- HK 03:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is another version of this article, Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox, that some editors have been working on. I am going to hide the comments and post it here. Substantial material has been moved between the Lyndon LaRouche bio and that version, in order to make a more logical division between the topics. The sandbox version is a bit rough in places, but I'm sure we can smooth it out. Cheers, - Willmcw 01:44, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This has been the quietest talk page in Wikipedia for the last four months. Who'd have guessed that five months ago? When I merged in the VfDed articles I glanced over the article. It is the worst of all the LaRouche articles. No offense to any editor, but there are sections that have little or no apparent meaning. "LaRouche-Riemann Method", "Culture and identity" (what exactly is the point of that anecdote - that some people are more talented than others? How did LL "collaborate" with Brainin and why does it matter?) It is hard to discern, in some places, what the reception has been to his ideas, or which are the most important.
We'd started working on a major revision but we all may have had LaRouche-fatigue after the ArbCom matter was settled. It's time to finish the work, or at least make some more progress. This article is longer than his significance warrants, especially since it is overflow from other articles. There's lots of good information in it. Some parts were the result of contentious editing, but may seem unnecessary in six months later. Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/sandbox I'm going to start playing in the sandbox again. There are many notes from our previous editing to guide us. An early step will be to re-organize it into the most logical structure. All editors are welcome to contribute productively. Cheers, - Willmcw 05:56, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
I've just reverted User:The Platonist's addition of the LaRouche photograph with Martin Luther King. I did this because LaRouche was never actually photographed with Martin Luther King, and to reproduce this collage would be to publish a piece of LaRouche propaganda. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:40, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
What the dickens is the "sacralization of politics"? --Stain
I was wondering if somebody might be able to explain to me why there were reverts of the following paragraphs:
1:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this original paragraph was then the following added:
This ruling was in accordance to a U.S. Supream Court ruling that makes it clear that a public figue as a plaintiff must proofe that the opinion statet, even if untrue and harmful, was stated maliciously-with hate, dislike, intent and/or desire to harm the plaintiff. As long as this proposition can not be met the opinion is called "fair comment". That means the court did not qualify the statement of calling LaRouche an anti-Semite but judged if there was proof of mailcious intend etc. on the side of the defendend. The plaintiff in this case was LaRouche.
2:
LaRouche has never explicitly repudiated the views expressed in the 1978 article, and in the 1980s, the Supreme Court of New York state ruled that calling LaRouche an anti-Semite was "fair comment".
To this was then added:
Fair comment is a legal term used in defamation cases. It does not reflect the common language use of the words fair comment.
Both changes were reverted without diskussion.
In case number 2 it was reverted with out explanation just the statement of the reverting.
So if somebody could help me with creating a less controversial paragraph that includes the information of the legal term fair comment?
I notified both reverters...
-- Zirkon 13:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
In the mean time i have changed the paragraph to version nr.2.
-- Zirkon 16:25, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, that is very helpful. I forget that most people are not aware of this peculiarity of the New York State judiciary. Unless, of course, if they watch "Law and Order," in which case they see the signage for the trial courts list them as parts of the NY Supreme Court. Here is some text that may help put this issue of the judge's ruling in context:
So Judge Dontzin essentially ruled that as a public figure plaintiff, LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended.-- Cberlet 18:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
To explain how this works, I cite here two related aspects of what a public figure in the U.S. has to contend with in order to win a defamation case:
The statement from Judge Dontzin show elements of both, and since we cannot know what was in the judge's mind, we have to rely on just citing the "fair comment," statement, or include the longer quote in the article, which is what I would prefer.-- Cberlet 18:26, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the paragraph we might still have our differences and mediation might be nessasary, but this is the way things are and - considering your answers - will be.
However sometimes it is nessary to be pedantic,
after all nobody wants to misslead people,
which is the reason why this was and will not be pointless
nor will it be seen as an attempt to rewrite history.
But lets leave this for others to judge...
Willmcw would you like to comment?
SlimVirgin would you like to comment?
-- Zirkon 20:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Considering the posting of Mr. Berlet from 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC): I note that your concerns about "fair comment" have not been put to rest. I find that interesting. Therefore I believe I have to ask the following questions:
C: This is your own definition of "fair comment": "LaRouche failed to show that the claim by ADL was so outrageous and false that the normal protection of "fair comment" for criticisms of public figures could not be transcended, and thus the case ended"
I repeat: Concerning your personal definiton of "fair comment" i ask you to substantiate your claims concerning this case. Please post legal definitons that change our view on this topic. Do I have to assume you dont want to do point C?
About actual malice: I dont see any notion of this in the quotation. Following this it was not part of the court ruling. Which is enough to not bring it into the diskussion. Following the definition of " fair comment" there are also logical reasons for not doing so. Would you please answer to this statement following your problems with "fair comment"?
4) Finally Mr. Berlet would you substantiate your implicit case that as Silmvirgin put it "The judgment means that it's not defamatory to call LaRouche an anti-Semite." ? Would you like to answer question Nr. 4 now Mr. Berlet?
I understand that reading through the whole thread is difficult for the casual reader i therefore will soon write a summary of the discussion so far. In doing so the questions asked to Mr. Berlet will be easier to put into a meaningfull context. And thank you Mr. Berlet we really did make progress today! Zirkon 23:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Zirkon 18:12, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Administrator SlimVirgin: Following your remarks on my Talk page I realise that there is a certain difficulty on your side in following my intentions. I therefore ask you to state the points you do not understand. I also would like to ask you to explain to me what you do mean with the following words: "...hard to read when spaced out (in more than one sense, perhaps)." I assume we will work through this together?
--
Zirkon
20:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
After Mr. Berlet had enough time to answer I shall proceed with pointing out the problems I have with Mr. Berlets remarks.
Quotes from Mr.Berlet are in quotation marks and itallic.
“Zirkon: here is what I posted on the fair comment page that you keep trying to rewrite to make it seem that LaRouche is not a notorious anti-Semite:”
“I have rewritten the explanation of fair comment in the U.S. once again to make matters more clear. In most states, the "fair comment" defense requires a factual basis. “
"The privilege of 'fair comment' for expressions of opinion depends on the truth of the facts upon which the comment is based" according to U.S Supreme Court Justice Brennan who wrote the ruling in Times v. Sullivan. This is based on Alabama law. I do not have the laws of New York state handy, but since you are attempting to write an apologia for [Political views of Lyndon LaRouche|Lyndon LaRouche] on another page based on a New York lawsuit, you would first have to show that under New York defamation law, "fair comment" does NOT require a factal basis.”
“I do not know if it does or does not. In any case, the judge in the LaRouche case who ruled it was not defamation to call LaRouche anti-Semitic is clearly indicating the defendants introduced sufficient evidence to butress the factual basis of their opinion that LaRouche was an anti-Semite.”
Feel free to dig up published commentaries on the defamation laws of the state of New York, otherwise your original research has no place on this page.--Cberlet 13:13, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Concerning the article "Fair Comment":
“I note that Zirkon created a Wikipedia page on fair comment that mischaracterised the actual complicated legal meaning of the term in a way that supports the LaRouchite line on the New York defamation case.” Cberlet 20:52, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
-- Zirkon 13:03, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
'Bold textSorry to add another layer of complexity to an already complex argument, but... Both arguments in this case are completely void because they are trying to imply that the court ruled on whether or not LaRouche's views were anti-semitic. They did not do this. The ruling that the court made was on the comment that LaRouche's views were anti-semitic, which they ruled was fair comment. When the British courts ruled on the Marquess of Queensbury's claims that Oscar Wilde was posing as a sodomite they did not have to establish that Wilde was or wasn't a sodomite, but merely that he may have appeared to be one or that such a comment did not damage Wilde's reputation. It is possible to see LaRouche as an anti-semite and it is also possible to see him as merely being highly critical of prominent Jews and Zionism as he is of many things. I'm personally of the view that LaRouche probably is an anti-semite, but the court ruling does nothing to support or detract from this. I hope that clears up a bit of confusion. - moodsformoderns
On October 18, Sean Black removed the word "obsessively" from the section called "Women and Feminism," with the memo "Rm POV word." On the same day, Cberlet put it back, with the memo "Restored word expressing opinion of critics." The following day, I went back to the Sean Black version, because his point seemed reasonable to me. I put as a memo "Who are these critics? Cite sources please." Minutes later, Cberlet put "obsessively" back, with the rather flippant memo, "or we could simply reinsert the word obsessively." What's going on here? As I understand it, the use of neutral language, and the citing of sources, are official Wikipedia policy. I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Wikipedia policy?
-- 80.74.131.252 01:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that you have responded to my request for a source by adding yet another quote from Chip Berlet. Aren't you just quoting yourself? It seems like you have an axe to grind. Also, another section of anonymous opinions that I removed with a request for a source was simply re-added by Snowspinner, with no source provided. At the top of this talk page it says:
Again I ask, is the way that this article is being handled consistant with Wikipedia policy? -- 80.74.131.252 15:43, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Chip Berlet is, it seems to me, a leading critic of LaRouche, so there is nothing wrong with quoting him as a critic of LaRouche. (Note: I am referring to quoting published works by him, rather than his work on wikipedia per se). john k 16:15, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's all true but one should take care not to privilege Chip as an editor. He still has to follow the rules (I'm not saying he hasn't). Chip should take care as well to recognise that he has a clear bias in this area, although I recognise that in this company asking that editors have an awareness of their own biases is going to fall on deaf ears. -- Grace Note.
Snowspinner's joke is funny. But that doesn't excuse him for putting in a quote, in quotation marks, with no source cited.
It seems to me that Lyndon LaRouche is not stingy with his opinions, he will talk to anyone who will listen. There are thousands of articles by him on the internet. But author/editor Chip Berlet says that he knows an anonymous person who says that LaRouche has opinions about the anus and the vagina, yadda yadda yadda, that have never been published, and he puts this in an encyclopedia article. This is not encyclopedia writing, this is tabloid journalism, and there is too much of it in this article, which is why I am putting up the announcement of disputed neutrality. -- 80.74.131.252 15:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
As far as I have been able to find out, no such ideas have ever been published by LaRouche, and this is supposed to be an article to inform people about LaRouche's views. I don't think this article is neutral under Wikipedia policy. I found that an example of things to be avoided at Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." I found seven examples of this in the article, usually with very inflammatory accusations. The readers of this article ought to know who is making these accusations. Also, there is one case where a critic other than Chip Berlet is identified, and that critic is Jean Hardisty. However, when I followed the link to Political Research Associates, I learned that she is a close collaborator with Chip Berlet. So it looks more and more like all the criticism in this article comes from a close knit group. There are other critics of LaRouche, like Michael Rubin and Robert Bartley, who are well known, but their opinions are not included in this article. I searched Google news for Chip Berlet and only got one hit. Again, this does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia article; it should verifiably reflect broad based, main stream opinion, not the special theory of one person or group.-- 80.74.131.252 15:31, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
As the person who initially removed "obsessively", I'd like to say that I'm pleased with that bit as it is now- It's well cited, and clarified as the view of a prominent critic (Berlet). I'm in favor of removing the NPOV tag.-- Sean Black | Talk 22:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I put the NPOV announcement there because I saw too many anonymous opinions attributed to "critics," which is against Wikipedia policy as I understand it. I am in favor of there being criticism in the article, but anonymous criticism makes it look like propaganda.
Here are the opinions that I think should be attributed. I don't see why the authors of the article wouldn't want to simply put the attributions in. Then the article would be fine, and I would be in favor of removing the announcement.
I also have two questions for Chip Berlet regarding the sourcing of quotes attributed to LaRouche.
I am not looking for sympathy. I am pointing out what seem to me to be deviations from Wikipedia policy, as stated in Wikipedia:Cite sources and [Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms]]. That's all. -- 80.74.131.252 15:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I am wondering why it is taking so long to get a reply to my question about the anonymous opinions. Snowspinner, when I took out the unsourced quote "His critics claim that he attributes to the ADL "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination,"", it only took you 2 minutes to put it back in. Why is it taking you so long to explain why you think this is justified under Wikipedia policy?
-- 80.74.131.252 21:03, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I see than an editor has added the "totally dipsuted" and "original research" tags to this article. Can we please have the specific problems with this article which warrant those tags? Please note that published material by Berlet does not count as original research. Which factual matters are in dispute? Thanks, - Willmcw 21:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure. The Original Research page says "Original research refers to theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any unpublished interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas" and some of Chip Berlet's arguments appear on his web site only, like the part where he says that when LaRouche attacks the policy of Maoism he is also attacking ancient China culture. But mainly I think that all the anonymous opinions which cannot be verified must be original research.-- 80.74.131.252 16:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Forgive me but I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that the anonymous opinions in this article are justified under Wikipedia rules? I went and read the article called "Chip Berlet." It seems that Chip Berlet has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. LaRouche too has published many books and is considered controversial, and has numerous critics. However in the Wikipedia article on Chip Berlet each criticism is carefully attributed. There are no inflammatory accusations with no source to verify. Why should the article on Political views of LaRouche not be written to the same standard of quality? I don't see why the authors of this article would be unwilling to simply add sources for the anonymous quotes I listed on this page. -- 80.74.131.252 02:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I have listed them once before on this page. Here they are again. They cannot be verified.
-- 80.74.131.252 16:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I am mystified that you would insist that they are cited. For example:
Who are these "critics"? They are not named. What is the source for the quote "the classic crimes of the sterotypical Jew of the anti-Semitic imagination," ? No publication is mentioned.
In each case where "critics" are mentioned in my list the critics are unindentified. Perhaps you don't understand what I am asking. If highly inflammatory accusations are being made, the reader should know who is making them. I am asking that the authors of the article identify the "critics."
This is the correct thing to do under Wikipedia policy. An example of an undesirable Weasel Term at at Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms is "Critics say that..." -- 80.74.131.252 16:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I see that Cberlet has provided an attribution for one of the anonymous opinions. That is a step in the right direction. Meanwhile, I have looked at a variety of dispute notices and I am posting "neutrality disputed" on this article, because the remaining anonymous quotes suggest bias under the guideline of "avoid weasel terms." Snowspinner, if you believe that this is the wrong notice, I would appreciate it if you would suggest an alternative, rather than deleting it with a flippant comment. -- NathanDW 18:04, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Cberlet and Snowspinner have had plenty of time to provide citations for the anonymous opinions. Cberlet did provide a citation for one of them. If they do not want to provide citations for the other opinions, they should be removed. There is plenty of well-sourced criticism of LaRouche available, and I will substitute properly sourced criticism if the citations cannot be found for the unsourced criticism. -- NathanDW 02:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Sean Black, I am being patient, but I am not abandoning my request for neutrality, so please do not remove the announcement again until this has been worked out. -- NathanDW 16:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I read the articles on Wikipedia policy carefully before I attempted to make any edits. Does anyone else do this? Yesterday editor SlimVirgin deleted the neutrality disputed announcement from "Political views of Lyndon LaRouche," without participating in the discussion on the talk page. If that editor had read the talk page, it would have been clear that there were serious reasons for the neutrality dispute. Then SlimVirgin simply deleted criticism from the "Chip Berlet" article, also without participating in the talk page. This seems like it could be considered biased editing.
Willmcw told me that I should put material about the John Train Salon in this article, so I will. -- NathanDW 06:20, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
More details on Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy theories from a www.schillerinstitute.org/fid_91-96/fid_924_lar_mozart.html Fidelio artical on Mozart, and wlym.com/PDF-77-85/CAM7811.pdf an old Campaigner issue which seem to suggest that this conspiracy predates Aristotle, back into Egypt and Sumeria (though, it is possible that the Aristotlians refined these ideas). Also, the British Empiricists are supposedly an extension of the Venetian Dynasties (which ultimately links them to the Roman Empire).
He also has a unique perspective on the Freemasonic conspiracy, in which Continental Masonry (the "true" Freemasons) where and probably still are at war with the Anglo Masons (well duh). This means that he has made distinctions between the Masonic orders, this is rare amongst conspiracy theorists (who tend to over generalize).
There are two things I do dissagree with him on. First (though I do not have assertive evidence for these preposals): His adherence to pure rationality (See: Continental Rationalism) states that ideas can emerge purely without perception. I am not sure if this is wholly possible (birthing somebody in a sensory depravation tank could only reveal whether or not this is), though there is good evidence from remote viewing and other forms of ESP and intuition that could indeed suggest an objective Pleroma.
Secondly: As a Christian, and somebody who has studied evil/sin (one and the same, simply means malfunction, or "foul ball"), their is a little problem concerning the dichotemy between the spiritual and the material. I agree on Gnosticism being incorrect in seeing the Spiritual and the Physical as inherantly incongruent (remember, Gnosticism is the religious cult based on Platonism in which our substantial universe is at odds with The Form of Good). I agree that inherantly and ideally the pragmatic world an extension of the idealic and are mostly one and the same (this would be Panentheism). However, LaRouche ignores Christianity's most basic tennent, being that man (and the universe he lives in) has been estranged from God. This universe is in danger of dying out and man with it unless he accepts God's assistance (which requires humility, since it is bassically admitting inherant incompetance and dependancy, which is particularl hard for males since this has a catrating effect). And this is not merely a Biblical assertion. Any sight of evil in this world will varify this (particularly in hospitals, prisons, nature shows/safari, and traveling freakshows). So while I agree with LaRouche in principle on this, I must dissagree with him that that is presently so (and the Bible is relevant, since he professes Christianity).
Otherwise though, when I first read one of his pamphletes (Children of Satan) alongside another pamphlet dealing with industry and a trip to India (I believe this is strategic, showing him to be Politically/Fiscally Far left and Socially Far Right, where they respectively count) was extraordinary, I have never seen anything like it before. I was struck by the insight of those articles (these where things I had, myself, suspected myself, but lacked the vocabulary or evidence to express it). IdeArchos 02:21, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
IdeArchos 23:54, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have carefully read Wikipedia:Verifiability and I ask other editors to do the same. It says that statements which are not properly verified may be removed by any editor, especially if the article is about a living person. This article is one of several that make the claim that LaRouche says the Queen of England is involved in the drug trade. The only acceptable verification for this claim is a quote from LaRouche. Cberlet has attempted to use articles that he himself wrote as a source for this claim, but those articles also do not offer any documentation. If you say that LaRouche said it, you must demonstrate that LaRouche said it.
LaRouche has said many controversial things. I began reading Wikipedia some months ago because I was puzzled by things I read in his pamphlets. However, I am now more puzzled, because the Wikipedia articles seem to focus more on things that Chip Berlet claims that he said, but for which no evidence is presented. Isn't LaRouche controversial enough without embellishment by his critics? -- NathanDW 16:23, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
John Mintz saying that they believe it is no different than you saying they believe it. If a viewpoint is being attributed to LaRouche and/or his supporters, there must be a quote from LaRouche and/or his supporters. If no such quote exists -- and there are libraries of quotes from LaRouche, you have one yourself -- then we are simply looking at some critics maliciously circulating or repeating a false rumor. -- NathanDW 21:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I removed Hertzberg from the list of Jewish leaders LaRouche "dialogues with." While it is true that Hertzberg was interviewed in EIR, he has since disavowed any support for LaRouche and is deeply disturbed by LaRouche's extremist and possibly anti-semitic views. This is my first edit on Wikipedia, so be gentle. BrevisLux 21:06, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I did want something specific to mention (but forgot along the way). I wanted more concentration on LaRouche's Venitian/ Roman/ Egyptian claims, since according to him, this is where the whole British oligarchy emerged from. It was really a matter of emphasis (and the fact is that there is some mention of this in the article, though not enough to really show his conspiracy theory in depth). The Gnostic stuff shows what he considers the main problems with his enemies' views (basically, he feels that pagan materialism and Gnostic Manicheism hold a common view that the physical and metaphysical worlds are ireconcilable and thus have nothing to do with the other (thus, justifying their immorality).
Both of these where mainly intended for the "Politics" section, mainly for clerification into what his whole ideology and the nature of the conspiracy. Basically, it is not merely the British.
Again thanks
IdeArchos 03:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I came here as a reader who was looking for critical analysis on LaRouche and his beliefs. I'm in no way a LaRouche supporter. I'm simply looking for information. What I've found here at this article is troubling. The fact that so many of the external links go to the website of Chip Berlet is quite distrubing. What's more disturbing is that many of the links to his site aren't included as a citation of what the views of LaRouche's critics are, but rather as a verification of what LaRouche's own views allegedly are. (Those sort citations should be made directly to LaRouche's own work or at least to a reputable news source that at least attempts to present issues with a neutral tone.) And the fact that Mr. Berlet has been quoted in some mainstream media articles does not mean that anything that he or his organization publishes becomes a reputable news and information source. What's even more disturbing is the fact that Mr. Berlet himself has been extensively editing this article. This allows him to use Wikipedia - with its large reader-base and its appearance of neutrality - as a mouth piece and soapbox to influence a much larger audience than his no-so-well-known website would be able to without Wikipedia. What's perhaps most disturbing is that - judging form the discussions on this and other talk pages - these issues have been raised repeatidly for quite some time now but little seems to have changed. Mr. Berlet apparently has the support of Slim Virgin and some other infulential people at Wikipedia, so he's been allowed to continue the practice of doing orginial research, publishing it on his own blog, and then including it here at Wikipedia. This situation needs to be honestly and openly addressed by the broader Wikipedia community - with people weighing in who don't have much in the way of prior association with either camp.
As for this article, I think it needs to be pretty much re-written. The resulting article will likely be a whole lot shorter if it is limited to more mainstream soruces. Neither Berlet and his allies' publications, nor LaRouche's are reputable news and information soruces, so citations to either should be kept at a minimum and limited to a verification of the *opinions* of both LaRouche and his critics. Facts should all be cited to mainstream media sources. Given that LaRouche is most often ignored by the mainstream media, there will probably be less extensive coverage, but that's ok. Wikipedia's coverage of individuals and their views should be proportionate to their relative notability. And while LaRouche certainly has some noteriety as an excentric fringe personality, he ranks pretty low on the notability scale compared to many, many others in American politics - most of whom have much less extensive coverage on Wikipedia. The best way to maintain Wikipedia's credibility, and to prevent these articles from being uesed as soapboxes by LaRouche's supporters *or* his opponents, is to limit their scope to what can be reasonably included under an honest interpretation of both the letter and the spirit of Wikipedia's "No Original Research" policy. AnonIPuser 20:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
PS - I look forward to responses from people who can honestly claim some real detachment on these issues. AnonIPuser 20:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
This article should present LaRouche's ideals only. Critics can be placed in Critics of at the end in links. It should not be used by Cberlet or anyone, left or right to debate his views. FACTS, that is all that is important here for his political views. God knows, this man, is constantly being attacked here based on Berlet and Company's analysis alone; without outside (of PRA) analysis of Berlet and his motivations counterbalancing this. For example, the biography on LaRouche should not be a smear campaign against the man. This is an encyclopedia, not a political website. Every statement by him or about him does not beed explanation to the contrary. Critics of his biography, or especially here can be placed in the cites or links section or in a brief section at the bottom. Let's make this an honorable site and not an attack site on people and their beliefs. -- Northmeister 21:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, let's back up here. If AnonIPuser, Northmeister, NathanDW, and/or anyone else could tell us what specific problems you have with the article, and how you think they can be fixed, that would be very helpful.-- Sean Black (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin and Cberlet always respond to any criticism of their methods by accusing you of being a LaRouche supporter. It's like Bush accusing all his critics of being pro terrorist. -- NathanDW 02:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Okay, again: Let's calm down our rhetoric. If you have specific complaints about the article, not the contributors, please list them here. Otherwise this just a flamewar that I will remove in due course.-- Sean Black (talk) 02:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I have complaints Sean, but if I list them then I will only be attacked once again for doing so. My concern is mainly authenticity and multiple sources and the structure of this article. This article should be about beliefs that are POLITICAL, not beliefs that are personal to LaRouche or about out of context statements made that are not official beliefs. This should only be about those beliefs. Links for Critics of these beliefs should be listed. I'll start there. But like I said, the same tactic as was used above on NathanDW has been used on me...thu calling me a LaRouche supporter in an attempt to rid my edits (I am not associated with that organization, though I know of them and their work on history and economics is competent,) of use, because of the Wiki policy on using LaRouche material; that's despite the fact I never once use such material or said I was affiliated with this group. Lumping into a group I do not belong to is not right, nor is it on anyone. This is a witch-hunt and McCarthyism and I reported these tactics to the Board. -- Northmeister 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I restored the version with the above details. It is important first because the said person's including myself all agree as people have before agreed. This article is titled to much toward one particular perspective and using material that is from 'less than reputable sources'. The original questions of the argument are legitimate. I consider deletion of that material akin to covering up the points made. This is not so much an issue over Mr. Berlet, but over a credible encyclopedic article about Mr. LaRouche's political views. The objections to the article listed are well detailed above and in the past. These are legitimate complaints and should be heard...I will repost the most relevant complaints from above, a record needs kept on this witch-hunt going on and the use of Wiki-pedia in this manner. -- Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
POINTS concerning this article:
"I count 9 references to "Chip Berlet" in the article. Is he the same person as the editor? Perhaps many of the unsourced opinions in the article are also those of Chip Berlet. Does he control this article? Is this consistant with Wikipedia policy?"
Here are the remaining sections to edit after we agree to the above section:
We can do this!-- Cberlet 03:56, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)"
"except insofar as you believe his early personal circumstances affected his political views, assuming enough is known about the former. Or perhaps it's more appropriate to say here what the political views are, and not to expound on how they came to be, leaving that analysis to [[Lyndon LaRouche] by Slim Virgin"
I will stop here for my points, because the above says it all for me. These are legitimate points about this page and need addressing and not in a manner to discredit the messenger so to speak who brings these things up. I would ask others to put their contentions down straightly as I have done. I expect the above questions to be answered fairly. -- Northmeister 04:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wish to also add each of the points made from PubliceEye website or those associated be backed up with other sources not associated with that website. Further the stuff on Gays on down needs to be deleted, as it is smear and contains nasty stuff like attributing that his wife left him so he became anti-feminist. This is POV and it is a nasty smear. This is not fit, nor the stuff below as it presently is written. Just provide FACTS of his political beliefs, no analysis of his beliefs. Let Berlet do that on his website, which can be provided as a link in a Critics of link section. The Fascism stuff needs reworking too, to start. -- Northmeister 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
What I see being raised in this discussion is that Chip Berlet has a poor reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, and that PRA should be considered a "self-published source." The policies you are raising ( WP:V) apply to him too. Online Journal Associate Editor Larry Chin charged that "Berlet is a gatekeeper who has made a career out of slandering and attacking whistleblowers, researchers and critics of the US government, of every political affiliation." www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/ResponseFromOnlineJournalAssociateEditorLarryChinToRivaEnteenReChipBerlet.htm -- NathanDW 01:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
You make a good point Phil and SlimVirgin your not neutral in this stuff as is obvious by your name calling above. I don't want this discussion to amount to who is more credible, I want a fair and honest report on Mr. LaRouches views. Such items as on his wife and Mr. Berlet's analysis that he became anti-feminist is outright wrong for this page. There is a difference between stated political views and the reasons behind them. The only man who knows why LaRouche thinks as he does is Mr. LaRouche, not Mr. Berlet or King or anyone else. They've written books about him from the fringe and the stuff added here to 'political' views are from their source material. Lyndon LaRouche was a political candidate for President and deserves mention in one article that is fair and accurate, with links to criticism of him going to his critics websites. The entire LaRouche article does not need to contain point counter point, smear, out of context statements used in a ill-gotten way, or other material from one group of individuals and association. Does that not make sense? I agree there are far to many articles on this website about him, there should be one and it should contain an honest biography and statement of his principles, with a link section to his critics. If a fringe organization such as Mr. Berlet's is allowed to publish their material on wikipedia it is only fair and honest to allow Mr. LaRouche's people to do the same. If PublicEye is allowed as a source, then it is only fair and honest to do the same for the Larouche websites. The most important thing for an encylopedia is accuracy and backup with other sources. So if material is used from either, backup sources from outside of their organization must be provided in lieu of their inclusion. This is fair, balanced, and neutral according to wiki policy. Further, individuals should not be allowed to accuse persons of being what they are not without evidence to the same. I find it very offensive that some of my edits in the past had been taken out claiming they were 'LaRouche ideas'. This type of thing was called a name once and condemned, namely McCarthyism and the man Dwight D. Eisenhower condemned it. That is what Mr. Berlet is engaged in if you go to his site; and that is what is currently going on here at Wikipedia. False accusations, stalking of individuals, making accusations as to the authenticity of Mr. LaRouches ideas base on Mr. Berlet and his associates alone. I do hope you see yourselve's for what your doing. This is my last statement on this. I will not edit this page however. I will leave that to people who know Mr. LaRouches ideas politically and who are credible on this subject. SlimVirgin, Will Beback, Cbertlet are all part of a clique out to ruin the reputation of wikipedia in the name of a witch-hunt using Chip Berlet's material alone. I will not participate in this and I CONDEMN it with every being of my SOUL. -- Northmeister 02:33, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
It is POV to say that the use of the expression "the Jew" is anti-Semitic. Here is an example of this use that is clearly not anti-Semitic: www.israelnewsagency.com/jewisrael194800.html SlimVirgin put back in that LaRouche says "the Jew" which is a usage typical of anti-Semites. I think this is particularly propagandistic on her part, because the article in which LaRouche says it is an article attacking anti-semitism. I am removing that sentence. -- NathanDW 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
I see that SlimVirgin has deleted all the material about the mediation. I think that this is a questionable decision. Here is the new location: Talk:Political views of Lyndon LaRouche/Twrigley. I have been meaning to say something, and I'll say it here. The problem is that when I or Northmeister or anyone else asks those three editors (Cberlet, Will Beback, SlimVirgin) to comply with Wikipedia policies by providing veriable sources, the same thing always happens: stalling, stonewalling, and accusations that anyone who asks for veriable sources is a LaRouche supporter. I have many criticisms of LaRouche, but I don't see that as justification for bad sourcing or propaganda techniques (quotes out of context, "spin.") I also agree that material that is sourced to Chip Berlet should have been published in a mainstream publication. I do agree that PRA is a "fringe" website, and much of what is on it could never possibly appear in a a mainstream publication. -- NathanDW 16:43, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
The two known experts on LaRouche, whether you like it or not, are Chip Berlet and Dennis King, which is why they're under constant attack by LaRouche supporters. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
<--------I have read LaRouchite publications on a regular basis since 1975. I have interviewed scores of former members. I have interviewed dozens of critics of LaRouche. I have attended events and heard LaRouche speak in person. I gathered information from a wide vaiety of sources. Then I wrote articles and book chapters that were published. I have watched videos of LaRouche speeches. I read their websites. I study and write about fascism, conspiracism, antisemitism, racism, sexism, homophobia, and right-wing populism. What matters is that I did not self-published these articles and book chapters. They are in print, from whence they can be cited on Wikipedia. Much material that is damning to LaRouche on Wikipedia was produced as a result of LaRouche defenders claiming I or some other editor had misquoted LaRouche or taken his quotes out of context. This is not true. Either 1) edit using Wiki guidelines, 2) suggest an alternative wording for a sentence or paragraph backed by reputable published cites, or 3) stop wasting all of our time with vague complaints that are little more than personal attacks on me and my research. Edit or stop complaining. Please!-- Cberlet 04:28, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I found out about the Alexa test ( Wikipedia:Google_test#Alexa_test) which is supposed to help decide whether a website is a suitable source. I checked the Political Research Associates on the Alexa site www.alexa.com/data/details/?url=www.publiceye.org and it seems that this should not be considered a suitable source. -- NathanDW 16:32, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I checked that myself. Seems to me that there is a lot of stuff used by Political research that should not be. They should not be used because they do not have a high rating compared to EIR. -- IAMthatIAM 16:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think Wikipedia is in danger of showing a structural bias in the way it distributes accusations and counter-accusations about people across their respective entries. Most of the criticisms of LaRouche, which basically seem to me to boil down to slurs, smears and vague innuendo and insinuation, backed, if by anything, with tenuous quotes, should be briefly summarized in Larouche's article and fully documented in the entries' of the respective authors of those criticisms.
As it is, entries can be "philibustered" if a few extremely partisan editors show up and start demanding that every single, pedantic claim of theirs is inserted for "balance". Eventually these claims become the "debate" surrounding the subject, and this debate takes precedence to the subject itself.
There really is not a SINGLE piece of evidence in the article for any categorically anti-semitic statement made by Larouche, just vague innuendo. Concepts like "classical theories" of anti-semitism are utterly bogus. Debates about the nature of fascism have no intrinsic relevance to the article's subject and it seems to me are basically included, once again, as a form of innuendo.
Wikipedia ought to be an encyclopedia, and it can't selectively become a running blog on a political struggle on a message board with quasi-encyclopedic semantics.
Thankyou -- Tarma 2002 18:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've always thought there was something weird in the charge that LaRouche is anti-Semitic. For example, in this quote from Bartley, he says it is "overt anti-Semitism" that LaRouche uses the phrase "Children of Satan," but on the cover of the "Children of Satan" pamphlet they had a picture of Donald Rumsfeld, who wasn't Jewish last time I checked. Bartley's argument seems to be the same as that of Berlet in the Wikipedia article. Bartley also says (it is difficult to follow his logic) that this sort of overt anti-Semitism can be practiced by Jews. This reminds me of the very first time I ever heard of LaRouche, which was on a TV show Geraldo Rivera used to have back in the '80s. He interviewed a general who called the LaRouche organization "a bunch of anti-Semitic Jews," which I thought at the time was rather unusual. -- ManEatingDonut 13:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I am asking people who edit this article to read one chapter from Dennis King's book, which is available on the internet, [31]
Many of the charges LaRouche makes against his opponents seem far-fetched to me, but they are tame compared to Dennis King's diatribe. He makes every conspiracy theory I have ever seen look sober and prudent by comparison. Read the chapter and then tell me why anyone should take this guy seriously, let alone consider him a suitable source for Wikipedia. -- NathanDW 15:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
This page increasingly is being edited to remove cited material and include dubious assertions that serve to sanitize the published material critical of LaRouche. This page needs to be NPOV, not a blog for people who are upset by published criticism of LaRouche.-- Cberlet 03:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)