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During the last days there has been an increase in the exodus of Venezuelans in the frontier and abroad. I think studies should be included to show this new migratoy influx after the Constituency Assembly [1] [2]-- Jamez42 ( talk) 20:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
The name "diaspora" is totally wrong since it implies an economical emigration. Also, the word "Bolivarian" is totally wrong, since it does not mention the name of the country, the Republic of Venezuela. 74.164.41.7 ( talk) 01:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
With the topic of refugee crisis mounting among Venezuelan neighbouring countries, with the mass exodus of millions of its citizens - propose to split the section on Second Bolivarian diaspora into Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. This would be in line with similar cases like Syria, where we have Syrian diaspora historical overview article, but also Refugees of the Syrian Civil War which deals with the massive international refugee crisis; another case is historical overview of Afghan diaspora and the ongoing modern case of Afghan refugees. GreyShark ( dibra) 05:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree with the split. According to the sources in the article, over 1,5 million people have left Venezuela due to economic, political and social upheaval. The current refugee crisis in Venezuela is getting a proportion compatible with Syria ( source1, source2). So, what we're seeing here is not something that is just another chapter of the "Bolivarian diaspora". It's its own thing now. And it's getting bigger. Enough for an article of it's own. Can call it venezuelan refugee crisis or Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. But the split would be correct, indeed. Coltsfan ( talk) 18:48, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09: @ Jamez42: @ Coltsfan: @ Buidhe: @ Bpp16: Are we splitting the article, renaming to Venezuelan refugee crisis or leaving as is? Just asking since the GAN is underway and some issues need to be resolved.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment: Also, I would like to mention that the article should be kept within the 1998 to present timeline. Many of the sources focus on the timeline between 1998 and more recent dates, such as 1998-2017 or the twenty year period of 1998-2018.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:21, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09: @ Jamez42: @ Coltsfan: @ Buidhe: @ Bpp16: @ Hegsareta: I propose splitting the article between the Chavez administration (Article 1) and Maduro administration (Article 2 - this article). I do not recommend more than two articles since there were multiple emigration events or "waves" of emigration that occurred during the larger crisis.
The timeframes:
The topics:
My initial idea was to title the article about the Chávez tenure "Bolivarian diaspora" since this is when the term was initially used, but it seems like this term was carried over to the current crisis. Suggestions for the name of Article 1 is suggested.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 09:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
I think that the sections that should stay under the refugee crisis title are "Crisis in Venezuela", part of "Causes", "Effects" and "Destinations", "Statistics", "Refugee life" and "Responses".That is the plan. The "Initial emigration" section would be summarized and its material would be put into a separate article (Article 1). I may create Article 1 with the title "Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration" to assist with this process. Also, if certain "waves" of the refugee crisis become prominent and notable (for instance Kingsif describes a 2019 wave), we can make a separate article that leads to this main article and dedicate the section to this event.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 11:26, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09, Jamez42, Coltsfan, Buidhe, Bpp16, Hegsareta, and Kingsif: Ok, check out Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration. Is this the split you were looking for?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:21, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
The current lead sentence describes the population outflow from Venezuela as "the largest recorded refugee crisis in the Americas." It cites three sources, a newspaper editorial calling it "the largest displacement of people in Latin American history" (available here). (Other citations refer to the name "Bolivarian diaspora.) Normally we don't cite newspaper editorials for facts, and for good reason in this instance. First off, refugee and economic displacement are not always the same thing. Second, the Colombian civil war resulted in nearly 7 million internally displaced people (as reported in the same newspaper). Third, if we're including economy-driven migration as an "outflow," over 6.1 million Mexicans moved to the US between 1994 and 2007. There are stable monitoring bodies (like the UNHCR) that monitor refugee numbers, and scholars who write comparatively about things that are "the largest in Latin American history," and we should rely on them instead of newspaper editorialists. At a minimum, this needs to be moved out of the lead sentence and attributed.-- Carwil ( talk) 20:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
I read through this article as a nom at GAR, a couple queries on scope and notability arise. Which of the sources establishes the notability of this article? There is a lot of references to news items, but I failed to sift out something that gave the article title as a topic, this risks the course of the article becoming an assemblage of tangentially related items being incorporated in factual content. Without clear assertions in RS, I would be inclined to open the review to fail it. cygnis insignis 14:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I also criticise the term "Bolivarian diaspora". In Latin America, no one uses that name to describe the Venezuelan emigration hordes. The events are just named «Venezuelan migration crisis». There are no sources mentioning the crisis with that denomination. It is not relevant to mention the political era of the country in question to name the event like that; if anything, it is insulting towards the Venezuelan themselves, as they don't want to have anything to do with their communist regime. -- Bankster ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Should we open a discussion to talk about the current article title? -- Jamez42 ( talk) 14:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
I was considering reviewing this article at GAN, but questions of scope and name need to be settled first. b uidh e 19:44, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Atsme ( talk · contribs) 11:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | In the lead: "...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro due to the Bolivarian Revolution." Suggestion: ...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country because of the Bolivarian Revolution during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro.
| |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | ||
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | ||
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | Needs fewer direct quotes, and inline citations for quotes that are kept. | |
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | ||
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | ||
7. Overall assessment. | Article passed the review. Congratulations! Atsme Talk 📧 22:45 7 July 2019 (UTC) |
ZiaLater, the copyvio issue needs your immediate attention. Thank you. Atsme Talk 📧 11:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Atsme: Any recommendations now that the split occurred?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Atsme: Alright, I have made the fixes. Let me know if you have any other concerns and thank you for your help!---- ZiaLater ( talk) 22:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
I feel that the Second Diaspora section should be split out, especially because I think there should also be a 'Third Diaspora' part; about 1 million people left the country in the first half of 2019, which shows a rapid acceleration in the exodus. This period of emigration isn't given much coverage, which it should, and can be seen as a separate part of the diaspora—both because of the rate and because it fits the timeline of the presidential crisis. There's also some number-crossing, with the Consultores 21 saying end-of 2017 there had been 4 million Revolution emigrants, but the end-of 2018 figure being 3.5 million; later numbers seem to count from about 2010 (rather than 2000), it seems some clarity is needed for the various sources' dates, to not confuse people.
The article realistically needs a current update—most of it is accurate, but reading things like 100% in 2015 being the highest in the country's history is kind of laughable when it's 2019 and inflation has rocketed over 2 million%.
The media section is broad and anemic, it requires work (the censorship articles and the relevant parts of Venezuela media articles may be useful). Sections like the prostitution one are also on the slim side for something that has a lot of coverage—big English-language newspapers and media sites have done investigative reports into the topic. The health section should also mention the AIDs crisis. The United States section needs expansion, and at least an update since it ends on a cliffhanger about a 2015 bill. Caribbean islands section probably needs expanding with recent ~disasters~; Colombia could also do with expansion given how significant the migration is there.
Iván de la Vega is mentioned a lot, could we ditch the "Iván" after the first instance?
In 'Statistics', it was stated "Most Venezuelans attempting to leave the country are in higher-income socioeconomic groups, although lower-income groups plan to emigrate as well."—I removed this because it has been stated, in just about the same words, before in the article, and it isn't particularly relevant here.
I've made a few tweaks for some copyediting, but I wouldn't pass this as GA based on incomplete coverage.
Thanks to whom changed the terrible name ths article used to have. "Bolivarian diaspora" had been annoying me for years. -- Bageense (disc.) 02:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
BBC reports that 40,000 are in T&T, with an average migrant rate out of Venezuela in 2018 being 1 person leaving every 2 seconds. BBC Kingsif ( talk) 15:22, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I just added a table of countries that restricts Venezuelans entering their countries. This is very important because in the wake of the refugee crisis, several governments impose such requirements in an attempt to control the entry of Venezuelans on a timely basis. I will expand the table soon with references and others. If there is any questions, please let me know. Thanks -- cyrfaw ( talk) 20:55, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
Venezuelan refugee crisis has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||
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Reporting errors |
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During the last days there has been an increase in the exodus of Venezuelans in the frontier and abroad. I think studies should be included to show this new migratoy influx after the Constituency Assembly [1] [2]-- Jamez42 ( talk) 20:41, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
The name "diaspora" is totally wrong since it implies an economical emigration. Also, the word "Bolivarian" is totally wrong, since it does not mention the name of the country, the Republic of Venezuela. 74.164.41.7 ( talk) 01:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
With the topic of refugee crisis mounting among Venezuelan neighbouring countries, with the mass exodus of millions of its citizens - propose to split the section on Second Bolivarian diaspora into Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. This would be in line with similar cases like Syria, where we have Syrian diaspora historical overview article, but also Refugees of the Syrian Civil War which deals with the massive international refugee crisis; another case is historical overview of Afghan diaspora and the ongoing modern case of Afghan refugees. GreyShark ( dibra) 05:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree with the split. According to the sources in the article, over 1,5 million people have left Venezuela due to economic, political and social upheaval. The current refugee crisis in Venezuela is getting a proportion compatible with Syria ( source1, source2). So, what we're seeing here is not something that is just another chapter of the "Bolivarian diaspora". It's its own thing now. And it's getting bigger. Enough for an article of it's own. Can call it venezuelan refugee crisis or Refugees of the Crisis in Venezuela. But the split would be correct, indeed. Coltsfan ( talk) 18:48, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09: @ Jamez42: @ Coltsfan: @ Buidhe: @ Bpp16: Are we splitting the article, renaming to Venezuelan refugee crisis or leaving as is? Just asking since the GAN is underway and some issues need to be resolved.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment: Also, I would like to mention that the article should be kept within the 1998 to present timeline. Many of the sources focus on the timeline between 1998 and more recent dates, such as 1998-2017 or the twenty year period of 1998-2018.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 10:21, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09: @ Jamez42: @ Coltsfan: @ Buidhe: @ Bpp16: @ Hegsareta: I propose splitting the article between the Chavez administration (Article 1) and Maduro administration (Article 2 - this article). I do not recommend more than two articles since there were multiple emigration events or "waves" of emigration that occurred during the larger crisis.
The timeframes:
The topics:
My initial idea was to title the article about the Chávez tenure "Bolivarian diaspora" since this is when the term was initially used, but it seems like this term was carried over to the current crisis. Suggestions for the name of Article 1 is suggested.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 09:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
I think that the sections that should stay under the refugee crisis title are "Crisis in Venezuela", part of "Causes", "Effects" and "Destinations", "Statistics", "Refugee life" and "Responses".That is the plan. The "Initial emigration" section would be summarized and its material would be put into a separate article (Article 1). I may create Article 1 with the title "Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration" to assist with this process. Also, if certain "waves" of the refugee crisis become prominent and notable (for instance Kingsif describes a 2019 wave), we can make a separate article that leads to this main article and dedicate the section to this event.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 11:26, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Greyshark09, Jamez42, Coltsfan, Buidhe, Bpp16, Hegsareta, and Kingsif: Ok, check out Emigration during the Hugo Chávez administration. Is this the split you were looking for?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:21, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
The current lead sentence describes the population outflow from Venezuela as "the largest recorded refugee crisis in the Americas." It cites three sources, a newspaper editorial calling it "the largest displacement of people in Latin American history" (available here). (Other citations refer to the name "Bolivarian diaspora.) Normally we don't cite newspaper editorials for facts, and for good reason in this instance. First off, refugee and economic displacement are not always the same thing. Second, the Colombian civil war resulted in nearly 7 million internally displaced people (as reported in the same newspaper). Third, if we're including economy-driven migration as an "outflow," over 6.1 million Mexicans moved to the US between 1994 and 2007. There are stable monitoring bodies (like the UNHCR) that monitor refugee numbers, and scholars who write comparatively about things that are "the largest in Latin American history," and we should rely on them instead of newspaper editorialists. At a minimum, this needs to be moved out of the lead sentence and attributed.-- Carwil ( talk) 20:36, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
I read through this article as a nom at GAR, a couple queries on scope and notability arise. Which of the sources establishes the notability of this article? There is a lot of references to news items, but I failed to sift out something that gave the article title as a topic, this risks the course of the article becoming an assemblage of tangentially related items being incorporated in factual content. Without clear assertions in RS, I would be inclined to open the review to fail it. cygnis insignis 14:36, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I also criticise the term "Bolivarian diaspora". In Latin America, no one uses that name to describe the Venezuelan emigration hordes. The events are just named «Venezuelan migration crisis». There are no sources mentioning the crisis with that denomination. It is not relevant to mention the political era of the country in question to name the event like that; if anything, it is insulting towards the Venezuelan themselves, as they don't want to have anything to do with their communist regime. -- Bankster ( talk) 08:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Should we open a discussion to talk about the current article title? -- Jamez42 ( talk) 14:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
I was considering reviewing this article at GAN, but questions of scope and name need to be settled first. b uidh e 19:44, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Atsme ( talk · contribs) 11:04, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | In the lead: "...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro due to the Bolivarian Revolution." Suggestion: ...refers to the emigration of millions of Venezuelans from their native country because of the Bolivarian Revolution during the presidencies of Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro.
| |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | ||
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | ||
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | Needs fewer direct quotes, and inline citations for quotes that are kept. | |
2c. it contains no original research. | ||
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | ||
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | ||
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | ||
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | ||
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | ||
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | ||
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | ||
7. Overall assessment. | Article passed the review. Congratulations! Atsme Talk 📧 22:45 7 July 2019 (UTC) |
ZiaLater, the copyvio issue needs your immediate attention. Thank you. Atsme Talk 📧 11:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Atsme: Any recommendations now that the split occurred?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Atsme: Alright, I have made the fixes. Let me know if you have any other concerns and thank you for your help!---- ZiaLater ( talk) 22:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
I feel that the Second Diaspora section should be split out, especially because I think there should also be a 'Third Diaspora' part; about 1 million people left the country in the first half of 2019, which shows a rapid acceleration in the exodus. This period of emigration isn't given much coverage, which it should, and can be seen as a separate part of the diaspora—both because of the rate and because it fits the timeline of the presidential crisis. There's also some number-crossing, with the Consultores 21 saying end-of 2017 there had been 4 million Revolution emigrants, but the end-of 2018 figure being 3.5 million; later numbers seem to count from about 2010 (rather than 2000), it seems some clarity is needed for the various sources' dates, to not confuse people.
The article realistically needs a current update—most of it is accurate, but reading things like 100% in 2015 being the highest in the country's history is kind of laughable when it's 2019 and inflation has rocketed over 2 million%.
The media section is broad and anemic, it requires work (the censorship articles and the relevant parts of Venezuela media articles may be useful). Sections like the prostitution one are also on the slim side for something that has a lot of coverage—big English-language newspapers and media sites have done investigative reports into the topic. The health section should also mention the AIDs crisis. The United States section needs expansion, and at least an update since it ends on a cliffhanger about a 2015 bill. Caribbean islands section probably needs expanding with recent ~disasters~; Colombia could also do with expansion given how significant the migration is there.
Iván de la Vega is mentioned a lot, could we ditch the "Iván" after the first instance?
In 'Statistics', it was stated "Most Venezuelans attempting to leave the country are in higher-income socioeconomic groups, although lower-income groups plan to emigrate as well."—I removed this because it has been stated, in just about the same words, before in the article, and it isn't particularly relevant here.
I've made a few tweaks for some copyediting, but I wouldn't pass this as GA based on incomplete coverage.
Thanks to whom changed the terrible name ths article used to have. "Bolivarian diaspora" had been annoying me for years. -- Bageense (disc.) 02:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
BBC reports that 40,000 are in T&T, with an average migrant rate out of Venezuela in 2018 being 1 person leaving every 2 seconds. BBC Kingsif ( talk) 15:22, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Hi, I just added a table of countries that restricts Venezuelans entering their countries. This is very important because in the wake of the refugee crisis, several governments impose such requirements in an attempt to control the entry of Venezuelans on a timely basis. I will expand the table soon with references and others. If there is any questions, please let me know. Thanks -- cyrfaw ( talk) 20:55, 9 December 2019 (UTC)