The beginning of Background reads "Following the death of former President Hugo Chávez, Venezuelans suffered a socioeconomic crisis under his successor..." but per our own Crisis in Venezuela page, the socioeconomic crisis began sometime in 2010, which is during the Chávez era and before his death. We have another 2013-present economic crisis in Venezuela page that specifies 2013, but that seems arbitrary and notes the declining indicators from 2012. 129.93.184.33 ( talk) 15:20, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Surely there's a more appropriate infobox template than {{ Infobox military conflict}} for this? {{ Infobox civil conflict}}, perhaps? If there's no objection I'll convert it over later today. ansh 666 03:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Can we please have some more sources for these entries? I just removed Mexico as the source by it just said that Nicolás Maduro reached out to them for support. There is no indication that Mexico has agreed to support him or help out. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:48, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Italy just recognized the new government Theasiancowboy ( talk) 22:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Mexico AMLO said again that they're remain neutral 9 hours ago Theasiancowboy ( talk) 01:57, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
At the moment this appears to be an unjustified content fork. Additionally there are POV issues. In the lead Maduro is declared in wiki-voice to be an illegitimate president. Ad Orientem ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that 2019 Venezuelan coup d'état may be an article that can be kept and improved on, since the 23 January events had international significance, but with a bad title, because
At the same time, I think Kingsif is in perfectly good faith in making this article, and I suspect only time will really tell if it warrants having on its own (also with respect to WP:ITN). Right now I think it's worth being worked on, and this request should probably remain open for longer.
LjL ( talk) 23:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Do not change the title to '2019 Venezuelan coup d'état' it was not a coup, it was the people and President Guaido following the orders of the Constitution. Therefore, it is just a crisis User:Ballers19 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Done: Merged----
ZiaLater (
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05:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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! Countries that recognize Juan Guaido !! Countries that recognize Nicolas Maduro Crisd000 ( talk) 14:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Countries that recognize Juan Guaido | Countries that recognize Nicolas Maduro |
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before any edit wars happen: @ Nice4What: and @ ZiaLater:, please discuss Palestine.
@ ParadiseDesertOasis8888: Any chance you can put the Neutral states somewhere else? The infobox is barely readable now. Kingsif ( talk) 21:59, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ BobNesh: Kosovo is not recognised by the UN, but it is recognised by other countries - including Venezuela - as a state. Wikipedia is neutral on if it's a state or not, so we can't pass judgement on that. No matter whether you think it's a state or not, it gets to go in the infobox. Remarkably, in the "Non-UN" section, with other nations that users like you could dispute because you don't believe in them. (Not to mention, Venezuela does recognise Kosovo). Kingsif ( talk) 16:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Wrong! Venezuela doesn't recognise Kosovo. BobNesh ( talk) 16:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Kingsif: Palestine is a non-UN state. I thought that is where it belonged in the infobox?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Nice4What: Not sure what "Non-UN" pertains to in the infobox. I thought it meant member states and not observers. What do you think?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Jim7049: Let's not edit war. You keep using the same source, but if you actually read it, you'll notice that it says:
"As oil-rich Venezuela’s main ally and creditor, China faces a dilemma – caught between backing Maduro and not taking sides – as it weighs the implications of a growing social and political crisis on its multibillion-dollar investment, analysts said. Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying called on “all parties to remain rational and keep calm, and reach a political settlement through peaceful dialogue”. Asked directly if China recognised Maduro, Hua said Beijing sent representatives to his inauguration. “We respect Venezuela’s efforts to uphold its sovereignty, independence and stability,” she added. “China opposes foreign forces from interfering into Venezuela affairs.”"
Most sources are saying China has supported Maduro. We will see how this turns out, though.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:11, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Should the Saint Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines be shortened to St. or remain as is? The infobox uses both right now. I think they should be Saint because that's what's used in their Wikipedia articles. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 ( talk) 06:45, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
ZiaLater, one question, why did you eliminate the Democratic Party of Equatorial Guinea and SYRIZA? Can not political parties be mentioned? Several political movements of the left or far left around the world have expressed their recognition to Maduro as president.-- Gustavo Parker ( talk) 07:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
There are thousands of parties worldwide and all of them have opinions. Makes no sense to start listing party opinions outside of Venezuela Bohbye ( talk) 09:38, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
That comment is worth a citation needed template when both the percentage of people who voted for Maduro was very high and also the UN observers involved in the said election came forward to say it was fair. Just because NATO disputes something doesn't make it "widely disputed" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6D52:CB30:A8D0:6DB2:BD0A:7D4 ( talk) 01:30, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
PDVSA and Electricidad de Caracas should not be listed since they are not included in the cited reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsaturno ( talk • contribs) 10:29, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
https://mundo.sputniknews.com/europa/201901251085023338-serbia-no-reconoce-a-guaido/ 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 23:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
A few countries listed as supporting Maduro is not clear on whether there is support or not. Example being Mexico which has a decisively non-intervention policy, and does not outright support Maduro. They are probably closer to neutral or no statement rather than outright support in the same way some leaders from other countries have expressed it. From France24 republishing L’agence France-Presse AFP [1]:
""We recognize the authorities elected in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution," Jesus Ramirez, spokesman for Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, told AFP. He later wrote on Twitter that Mexico was "analyzing the situation in Venezuela." "For the moment, there is no change in our diplomatic relations with the country nor its government," he said." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.21.209 ( talk) 06:53, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics-britain/uk-supports-venezuelas-guaido-as-national-assembly-head-pm-mays-spokesman-idUKKCN1PI1IQ The map and infobox need to be updated to reflect the UK's support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 19:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
True, found a better source. This NYT article states that the Foreign Secretary very clearly backs Guaido as the leader of Venezuela, not Maduro. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/01/24/world/europe/24reuters-venezuela-politics-britain-hunt.html Willing to leave it be until May's govt makes an official declaration of recognition but that should be coming shortly. 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 19:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Alright, no worries. Will keep looking out for the UK's stance. Can post an update here tomorrow, if they put out something official. 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 20:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
In the map Uruguay is blue, and the Mexico is red. But we don't have sources about those countries. 73.158.103.169 ( talk) 19:07, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Stop the edit wars, please. Bohbye ( talk) 23:52, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Spain, France, Germany and the UK issued an ultimatum to Maduro, threatening to recognize Guiadó in eight days unless free elections are called: [2] -- Mr.Election ( talk) 21:08, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
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The current president is Nicolas Maduro under international law 86.19.149.99 ( talk) 16:11, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
As Hamas and the South African Communist Party are listed as organisations that endorse Maduro as the legitimate president, it may be worth adding to the infobox another supporter, Greece's governing political party Syriza. ( http://www.ekathimerini.com/236948/article/ekathimerini/news/syriza-expresses-support-for-venezuelas-maduro ) 19:22, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Who maintains it and if it’s not maintained why keep it? Bohbye ( talk) 09:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Mexico is neutral and not with either government: [3]. (Wasn't there a section for neutral governments in the info box previously?) David O. Johnson ( talk) 18:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Wasn’t and I proposed adding such a section Bohbye ( talk) 18:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/ RBL2000 ( talk) 17:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
− This article lists Sweden among countries that recognise Guaidó. But on Radio Sweden, it is reported that "Utrikesminister Margot Wallström vill inte kommentera om Sverige erkänner självutnämnde presidenten Jean Guaidó eller inte" (Foreign Minister Margot Wallström will not comment on whether Sweden recognises the self-styled president Juan Guaidó or not". ( https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=7139169 ) This makes me wonder how many of the other countries listed as "supporting" Guaidó's claim are factual and how many are made up, imagined or exaggerated. 22:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
We are going to have a hard time debating whether the article is accurate if my comments are going to get deleted for "original research". Is that really valid, to remove a comment from the talk page for original research? What I want to challenge is the article's infobox's claim that Sweden has recognised Guaidó. In response I cite this source: https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=7139169 where Sweden say they don't take a stance on that question. How does that count as research? And if it is research, how did the writer of the info in the infobox add that info without conducting research?? 86.175.201.238 ( talk) 22:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Officially they are not recognising either government; the head (used as source for Guaidó support) has retweeted it as well
https://twitter.com/eda_dfae/status/1088752224778506241?s=21 (Français)
https://twitter.com/swissmfa/status/1088761587790475265?s=21 (Anglais)
Both of them support Guaidó per several different sources:
References
The provided source for India did not state that it supports Maduro, yet some users are trying to synthetize it and argue that India should be there because it "recognized him before". It has been suggested that we should bring every country in the world into the infobox on Maduro's side unless it expressly supported Guaidó, which seems plain wrong. This article and infobox are meant for the presidential crisis conflict, and that infobox field is meant for parties in the conflict. If a country doesn't expressly get involved, that means they're not involved and are neutral, so it can't be automatically put on either side unless a proper source that reflects on that is provided. Nonetheless, rather than starting an edit war, maybe issues should be discussed here on the first place. Impru20 talk 22:38, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
If they don't recognize Guaido then they recognize Maduro, it is simple as that and that is clear unless India should spell it out. 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 23:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.Impru20 talk 23:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Remove India from the list Theasiancowboy ( talk) 01:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Noah Feldman is expert in law, he analyzed the Venezuelan law/constituion and his article on Bloomberg is his conclussion, this should be implemented into the article as it explains and clarifies details of the crisis involving Venezuelan law/constitution for which Guaido and the opposition assert Maduro isn't the President of Venezuela. 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 00:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I am not finding mention of European governments giving Maduro eight days to call elections, or they will back Gauido. Am I missing it? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Done the "eight days" appears well sourced.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
22:04, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The ruling party PDGE (in the name of the Président) has expressed support for Maduro. Should be added to both infobox and map
https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/ https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190125/46887864/el-partido-gobernante-de-guinea-ecuatorial-expresa-solidaridad-con-maduro.html
Hamas, as the controller of the Gaza Strip should also be mentioned
PDVSA
CNBC is more reliable than the other website I believe
The only source stating Uruguay recognizes Maduro is Sputnik. In the Sputnik article, they even say that an official statement "will come out tomorrow or later, not today because what is coming from Caracas is being analyzed to make a statement where the emphasis will be to bring the parties closer and reach a peaceful solution of the controversy through the dialogue and negotiation". Here is the official statement that was released later by Uruguay. No official recognition of Maduro as of yet from what I can see from sources.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:45, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Not the only source now. Yahoo (AFP), Straits Times (Singapore) and SBS (Aus) have listed as such, along with North Korea. Nebakin ( talk) 11:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Is Mexico neutral now? I see it in this source and see they were removed from the infobox.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
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Italy officially does not support the National Assembly, as written in the article. Here the words of the PM Giuseppe Conte: "At this moment, is of fundamental importance to avoid an escalation in the country and prevent Venezuela - through the impository intervention by foreign countries - from becoming a field of division between global players."
https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2019/01/26/news/venezuela_governo_diviso_i_cinquestelle_stoppano_conte-217527748/ 93.48.40.135 ( talk) 21:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Republic of China is Taiwan's official name. Either edit it to Republic of China or Republic of China (Taiwan). Nebakin ( talk) 08:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/americas/maduro-vs-guaido-who-is-backing-whom-amid-crisis-in-venezuela https://www.sbs.com.au/news/maduro-vs-guaido-who-s-backing-whom-for-the-leadership-of-venezuela https://www.elpais.com.uy/mundo/aumenta-presion-maduro.html
Please implement on Foreign States that support Maduro. RBL2000 ( talk) 19:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Reading the sources, I do not see explicit statements by the African Union, Arab League or OPEC supporting Maduro, only the Cuban state-run source name dropping organizations in attendance to his inauguration. Mexico attended the inauguration as well, but has remained neutral to the conflict in official statements. Should African Union, Arab League and OPEC be removed until we can find statements and better sources? Also, Mercosur needs a citation for it to be included in support for Guaidó as well.
Pinging users to help with this: @ Irn: @ MaoGo: @ Panam2014: @ Kingsif: @ Jamez42:
Thanks in advance.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 11:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Done ----
ZiaLater (
talk)
23:15, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This map was created by AntoFran. It is proposed that the colors of each side must be different from green and black as these can be interpreted as good or evil, thus creating a bias in the article. The colors suggested are blue and yellow. This map also includes more countries since there are many more reliable sources in Spanish regarding this topic. FedericoFederico 19:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Ecuador, Jamaica, Haiti, Kosovo, Puerto Rico and Italy support the new government of Guaido and should be filled with BLUE Ballers19 ( talk) 23:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC) Ballers19 ( talk)
I can make color corrections to the map I made easily through the svg file. Green was initially used just for the recognition of Guaidó. Red is usually used in maps to associate to the PSUV party (Maduro), but other colors can be proposed for neutrality. I will take a look at it later when I have the chance.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 05:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Albania and Spain just recognized guaido presidency Theasiancowboy ( talk) 12:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Kingsif: @ Theasiancowboy: Discussion about the map is here. Provide sources.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
France, Fr. Guiana, Germany, Albania, and Portugal all have supported Guiadó. Also, Uruguay never endorsed Maduro. Like Mexico, they offered a neutral position for dialogue. Please fix colors for all. ( Ballers19)
There is some more inconsistency in map coloring. Crimea, which is part of the Ukraine, for some reason is colored red, whilst the Ukraine didn't present its position on Maduro. 130.149.12.180 ( talk) 17:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The term "presidential crisis" which appears both in the title and the text of the article is poor and should be replaced with "constitutional crisis." - Ad Orientem ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
I support the current title of "2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis". It's a crisis and involves the president, that much is certain. Almost everything else is unclear. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:45, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Should a table of responses be used, and foreign support placed in the infobox be removed? I think its more appropriate as it would better capture the statements by various foreign governments, while retaining the key centrality of internal Venezuelan political groups in the infobox. I am wary that content focusing on Venezuela and Venezuelan groups will be brushed aside after it becomes an international political role.
The style would be similar to this for example [5].
We almost never have a full table of statements; these often will get moved to sub-articles that eventually get deleted. The press releases are primary sources, and can be collected and analyzed by other sources. The details of the binary "supporting Maduro/Guiado" are getting included here one way or the other, I think we may want to move those details out of the infobox and into tables in the main article text. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Switzerland for example clearly said that, see earlier comment on this talk page.
I don’t suggest to list countries that didn’t say anything, but to do list countries officially not picking any side. Bohbye ( talk) 18:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Why does this warrant mention in the lead? As if unfree media is news in Venezuela? No context ...
And if it must stay in the lead, can the grammar please be adjusted? Venezuela began ... beginning ... is repetitive. How about, Venezuela began censoring social media on 21 January? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Could we please replace the mixed language jargon, open cabildo with public assembly throughout? This jargon is not necessary or helpful, and people who do not speak Spanish have to click out to see what it means. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Now that there is a section for neutral countries, Côte d’Ivoire should be there because of their comments at the UN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 10:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Something has to be clarified. Do we include nations that state that they support the National Assembly in the infobox? Or do we only include nations that only recognize Guaidó?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Impru20: @ Kingsif: Made some changes to the infobox to make a better explanation. Is this better?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders and the like is not considered official opposition / non intervention. Those politicians do not dictate policy, the president does according to the US constitution. Additionally, we do not list internal opposition of any country to the official policy of their country regarding Venezuela, why list internal US opposition. Therefore that section needs to be removed. Bohbye ( talk) 22:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Why are they listed on the page as supporters of Maduro? What is so special of them being “organizations” that have any say in this crisis? Are we going to list the opinions of every armed militia group worldwide? Removed WP:BOLD - Bohbye ( talk) 18:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
There are a lot of threads about individual countries on the infobox. I'm archiving those that have been done and don't have further discussion of value. Instead of starting a new section for future changes, please consider asking for them here. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
the king — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 08:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The Heads of Government of the Caribbean Community has called on the United Nations to take the lead.
CaribDigita ( talk) 02:10, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Spain's President recognized Guaidó. [1] ParadiseDesertOasis8888 ( talk) 02:57, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
References
I propose that this information be moved out of the infobox (where it is hidden due to space concerns) and added to the article body as a table (un-hidden). It's not very useful where it is, and doesn't show up in my browser when I try to find it to check whether countries are (or are not) present; I've had to use the raw wiki-text to view the data. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 22:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm trying to get all the collapsible lists to bulleted multi-column lists, but it takes time (and there are edit conflicts). power~enwiki ( π, ν) 22:49, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The current version of the infobox has hyper-links to the section lower in the article where the full list of nations is found; I think this is a good approach. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 23:31, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
As a note - I think I've done all the talk page cleanup / article structure cleanup I can do myself. I'll continue to archive threads manually that are >24 hours out of date on the talk page. A few threads (in particular the map one) I plan to leave on the talk page indefinitely. Time permitting, I hope to edit the "Timeline" section, focusing on pre-January 23 events. Regarding what the current state of international recognition is, I plan to only make changes requested on the talk page. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 23:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The Venezuelan Armed Forces have pledged loyalty to Maduro. Should be added under organisations or something — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 13:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Support Guaidó
https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1155036/venezuela-le-maroc-apporte-son-soutien-au-president-autoproclame-juan-guaido.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 22:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
the sources are mostly dead links — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 02:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Nations who clearly said their position is non interference with internal politics of Venezuela shuld not be listed under the section of supporting Maduro. There shuld be a new subsection of “Non Interference policy” under the Maduro section (similar to the “support the National Assembly” subsection under “Supporting Guaidó”). Sorting it out this way will be reflect the actual statement those countries. Bohbye ( talk) 17:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
"On 23 January 2019, the European Union gave its first stance on Venezuela, issuing a declaration stating that "the EU fully supports the National Assembly as the democratically elected institution whose powers need to be restored and respected", though some of its member states, like the United Kingdom, later said they supported Guaidó".
This contradicts the lead section: "The dispute came to a head in early 2019 when the National Assembly of Venezuela stated that the results of the election were invalid and declared Juan Guaidó as the acting president, citing several clauses of the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution".
As I understand it, the EU, like the UK, supports Guaidó.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mock wurzel soup ( talk • contribs) 00:22, January 27, 2019 Mock wurzel soup (UTC)
Mock wurzel soup, you forgot to sign. I am not seeing the contradiction you mention. Could you rephrase your question? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:30, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Before they are placed back into the infobox, I need to explain a few things. Political language can be complicated sometimes, especially in a situation where someone has to take sides. This is why it is recommended to use official declarations and explicit messages of support for both Maduro and Guaidó. We can not assume what there words or what the sources are trying to say or that would be WP:OR.
On to Antigua and Barbuda and Belarus. Antigua and Barbuda called for non-intervention. A lot of countries have, but not given a statement on whether they recognize Maduro. We can not assume they recognize Maduro (or Guaidó) if they do not explicitly say so. As for Belarus, the source is literally just Maduro talking on the phone. It does not have a single statement from Belarus or any audible dialogue from their side. This is sourced from the Maduro government as well, so a more proper and official source must be placed as well.
As a result of this, both nations will be removed until we can find some proper sources. Feel free to add the sources below and we can discuss how to add them. Until then, please stop with the edit warring and let's keep Wikipedia accurate.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 06:07, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
The only source for Palestine's support for Maduro is from the Maduro government from 10 January 2019, the date of his inauguration. Just noting this here on the talk page.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Definitely means it needs to be removed unless there is an alternative reliable source. Bohbye ( talk) 01:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Given that the party (Nepal Communist Party) leads a 2/3 majority government, it is probably the de facto official stance of the government. 103.10.28.175 ( talk) 05:09, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The section "Public opinion" has 3 references, to the same pro-opposition website, and it links to Meganalisis (redlink). NPOV? I don't think so. emijrp ( talk) 21:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
So public opinion polls conducted by the opposition is somehow informative and unbiased. It's so sad that wikipedia is becoming the "neutral" voice of western imperialism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 14:59, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/29/venezuela-crisis-new-zealand-guaido-interim-president?CMP=twt_gu 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 02:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
I think Vietnam should be added in Vocal neutrality section, despite this country remains communist and ties strongly with Venezuela. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.80.21.139 ( talk) 11:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
While I think it sounds like a very soft support for Maduro, should be added to the neutral countries list
http://www.mirco.gov.na/documents/140810/673389/MEDIA+RELEASE+-+NAMIBIA+POSITION+ON+VENEZUELA/e989db0c-ce0a-4dc6-b23f-b2b0f22219fe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 05:20, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Simon1811: [7]? Our article ALBA doesn't say so. In fact, we probably should not select out any specific ALBA members without sources. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:29, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
It is not a member but the country still expressed support for Maduro---- Fenetrejones ( talk) 11:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Neutral
103.70.152.5 ( talk) 11:37, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
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Switzerland recognize Juan Guaidó as President of Venezuela. Said by Bénédict de Cerjat, Swiss Ambassador, Head of the Americas Division, Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs in his oficial twitter (in German): https://twitter.com/SwissMFAamerica/status/1088397932397776896 2A02:1205:C697:4830:5072:5CF3:FF8:349D ( talk) 20:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Guaido as acting president may be pleasing for US but for other countries liKe china,russia,india certainly it is not. Us just want to involve itself around the world's crisis and understand itself as the universal boss but now tHe time has changed a lot dear US. Ankit Tomar official ( talk) 20:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
https://www.khmertimeskh.com/572885/pm-warns-against-foreign-interference/ 95.168.120.43 ( talk) 07:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
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@ Simon1811: You completely disregarded my sources proving that an important part of the opposition wanted Guaidó to take oath, such as the Supreme Tribunal in exile or the July 16 parliamentary fraction. Quoting Capriles is interesting since he has lost a lot of confidence in the public after the 2013 elections and his promotion of participation in fraudulent elections and dialogues between government and opposition that have turned into negotiations. [10] [11] -- Jamez42 ( talk) 12:25, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@
Simon1811: For the claims above, of the opposition. --
Jamez42 (
talk)
13:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Could someone please place a link to the edit in question at the top of this section? That would save everyone a lot of time, and will also help admins deal with tenditious editing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree with SandyGeorgia and Jamez42 here. Capriles has not been very relevent for awhile and has even distanced himself from the opposition by leaving the MUD. Seems to be out of the loop. Since the TSJ in exile was formed, a transitional government has been in the making. ---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:40, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
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Someone is deleting countries that are clearly supporting Maduro on the grounds that they have not said “I support Maduro”
Antigua Barbuda is obviously supporting Maduro with statements like calling the crisis 'a brazen regime change' by the us, something that 'has no constitutional backing', and 'no support for international law'. The PM also called the CARICOM statement expressing concern 'timid' and believes that the group should have stated its position more forcefully. It is a support of Maduro.
Belarus: Nobody is going to invent a phone call with another leader. Imagine if he did it with France (you would get a statement saying it is untrue within minutes)… why doesn’t he do it with more influential countries such as India / Indonesia who have not released official statements? It is weird that you need Lukashenko to write an official statement when he has personally called the president of the country.
Équatorial Guinea: Point has been mentioned several times but apparently the RULING PARTY writing in the name of the president himself is not official enough? What? It is totally fine. Would you consider a statement made by the representative to the UN unofficial too since it is not the President/prime minister?
Serbia is not the strongest form of support but he has said that he does not intend to recognise Guaidó at any time
Laos: The representative of Laos met with the representative from Venezuela, there is a picture of them as well. Can’t see how it might not have happened since there is only word from Maduro’s side.
Uruguay and Mexico: Yes they are wanting to mediate but both have explicitly said they recognise Maduro which is what the info box and the map both claim to display
Hamas: which governs Gaza, has said that they recognise Maduro and should be added as well
Switzerland (on the map): is there because of a tweet from the Head of the Americas division of the MFA but the official word of the MFA (retweeted by this same person at a later time) is disregarded.
PDVSA: also apparently support Maduro
Sources:
Antigua/Barbuda: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/haiti/article225070430.html
Équatorial Guinea: https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/
Mexico, Uruguay: https://m.perfil.com/noticias/internacional/paises-apoyan-nicolas-maduro-rusia-china-bolivia-cuba-siria-nicaragua-salvador-iran.phtml?rd=1
Switzerland: https://twitter.com/swissmfa/status/1088761587790475265 (again this was retweeted by Bénédict de Cerjat)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 02:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 01:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is there no mention about troika of tyranny? The article as it currently is makes it look like that USA has no part on what's happening now at Venezuela — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.49.96 ( talk) 22:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Done there is now a "See also" section linking to this article.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
18:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
merged power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC) John Bolton recently explained the US's position on Venezuela:
Venezuela's one of the three countries I call the 'troika of tyranny'. It'll make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezeula. It'd be good for the people of Venezuela, it'd be good for the people of the United States.
I think this is useful to explain the US's efforts to free Venezuela from the tyranny of not being enslaved by the US. Can someone please incorporate this into the article? Thanks. 2601:644:1:B7CB:B50A:8F52:F09E:E13F ( talk) 22:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
According to wikipedia's own entry on troika of tyranny: The phrase "troika of tyranny" was first used by United States National Security Advisor John R. Bolton during a speech on behalf of President Donald Trump at Miami Dade College on November 1, 2018 to describe the nations of Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. So the "troika of tyranny" concept clearly predates the current events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 10:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Fenetrejones, in this edit, you have reinstated without discussion for the second time text that is sourced only to a Venezuelan government site. "It seems believable" is not among the reasons given at WP:RS for determining reliability of sources, and you are edit warring; please see WP:3RR and discuss your edits on talk. Do you have a third-party, independent reliable source for this information? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:20, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Removed Laos. No other sources showing support.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 21:18, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Laos' stance is directly from the official web-page of the Ministry of Popular Power for Communication and Information of Venezuela. Please double check before edit warring. /info/en/?search=Ministry_of_Popular_Power_for_Communication_and_Information Nebakin ( talk) 11:26, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
With this edit, maintenance tags are removed, and text that has no consensus and is not reliably sourced is re-instated, after more than three warnings. Correodelorinoco is just another government source-- not reliable to source statements about other governments. The Venezuelan government received an ambassador on the day of the protests; construing that to imply support one way or another is original research. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
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Why are only Pro-Guaido/Anti-Maduro protests covered and those Pro-Maduro/Anti-Guaido ignored in the article? The extreme bias is evident with selective implementation of information.
https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1089969569928826880
https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1089845509681045504
You forgot to put on Social Media sections Hand Off Venezuela... Emijrp please add it to it.
RBL2000 ( talk) 19:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
We now have two sections claiming this happened, one for events on January 13 and the second for events on January 23. How should we describe these? power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
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Kingsif is intentionally taking advantage of so called neutrality to remove Belarus from list of countries that recognize Maduro as President of Venezuela.
> Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko and Venezuela President Nicolas Maduro have had a telephone conversation
The context is clear, otherwise Belarus would not write "President Nicolas Maduro" and this backups what Maduro and Venezuelan government said yet people in here were saying not valid because it comes from them.
“We absolutely reject any external interference with the domestic affairs of a sovereign state, including efforts aimed at destabilization of the situation in the country,”
It is clear they're against interventionism and foreing powers meddling in Venezuelan politics. RBL2000 ( talk) 23:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC) — RBL2000 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Some users are actively trying to promote a pro-Guaidó/anti-Maduro stance. In the cases of Belarus and Greece, they both need to be added to support of Maduro.
Imagine thinking that state-owned agencies are not a reliable source for the same state they work for. The Belarusian Telegraphic Agency has confirmed what Maduro tweeted that Lukashenko called Maduro assuring him of support. They 'reject any external interference with the domestic affairs' of the 'friendly country of Venezuela'. This is a staunch support for Maduro.
On a side note: pretty much every single country is calling for a peaceful settlement of the situation. They might have different desires as to the final outcome, but no only is actively wishing for war.
For Greece, the Independent states, 'Now the Greek government of Alexis Tsipras is backing the Maduro dictatorship while other European-left prime ministers, like Spain’s Pedro Sanchez who knows the truth of the Maduro tyranny, are calling for new elections.'
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-us-sanctions-alexis-tsipras-greece-support-a8751771.html JoyceJonathan2 ( talk) 02:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Seriously Wikipedia, how many more sources do you need to accept the fact that Greece stands by Nicolas Maduro? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 10:36, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
According to Belarusian, Russian, Kazakh, and Ukrainian media, he is supporting Maduro (and before you say all of them are biased, we cannot just discount entire countries based on their governments)
Belarus
Belsat "Беларусь, фактычна, прызналася ў тым, што стала на бок Мадура."
https://belsat.eu/news/lukashenka-parazmaulyau-z-madura-pa-telefone/
BelaPAN (need subscription to see the full article, but the headline states "Lukashenka expresses support to Nicolas Maduro")
https://en.belapan.by/news/politics/?page=2&filterby=month&startdate=2019-01-01&chunksize=15
Russia
Lenta "Лукашенко встал на сторону Мадуро"
https://lenta.ru/news/2019/01/26/lukash_maduro/
Izvestia "Лукашенко лично заявил Мадуро о своей поддержке"
https://iz.ru/838437/2019-01-26/lukashenko-lichno-zaiavil-maduro-o-svoei-podderzhke
Gazeta "Президент Белоруссии Александр Лукашенко заявил о своей поддержке венесуэльского президента Николаса Мадуро."
https://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2019/01/25/n_12562537.shtml
Interfax "Лукашенко выразил поддержку президенту Венесуэлы Мадуро"
https://www.interfax.ru/world/647794
InfoReactor "Отмечается, что Лукашенко заявил Мадуро, что Венесуэла всегда может рассчитывать на белорусскую поддержку...."
Kazakhstan
Tengri News "Лукашенко заявил, что поддерживает Мадуро"
https://tengrinews.kz/sng/lukashenko-zayavil-chto-podderjivaet-maduro-362083/
Ukraine
Новое Время "Лукашенко поддержал Мадуро"
https://nv.ua/world/countries/lukashenko-podderzhal-maduro-50003246.html
KP "Глава государства заявил о поддержке президента страны Николаса Мадуро и добавил, что выступает против любого внешнего вмешательства в дела суверенного государства." "Президент Беларусе лично позвонил своему венесуэльскому коллеге и выразил свое сопереживание."
https://kp.ua/politics/629303-lukashenko-podderzhal-nykolasa-maduro
103.70.152.5 ( talk) 11:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
It should be clarified that the election was "widely disputed" by the United States and its allies, not by the free countries of the world. 2601:644:1:B7CB:7845:7B76:A134:441B ( talk) 08:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Cited, [15] and disagree with the OP. It is unsightly to overload a lead with citations, so here are a few more from ProQuest:
Since before the lock I wrote a bit on the constitutional basis of the interim government, citing this [16] authored by Guaidó himself, under "Basis of the Challenge". I missed adding a few key points, on what Guaidó and the National Assembly want. I think the Roadmap provided by the opposition is a quite clear indication of what they expressly want. Its listed quite clearly from this source:
"Our road map is clear: stop the usurpation with national unity and through external and internal pressure; form a transitional government to open channels for humanitarian assistance; restore the rule of law and the separation of powers; and call for free elections so all Venezuelans can decide their future." -Juan Guaidó
I don't have a wikipedia account, if another user can make this edit I would welcome it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.113.101.67 ( talk) 12:54, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Seriously, Mexico's position sourced to urdupoint.com ??? What other messes are to be revealed in the sourcing of this article? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
I would like to work this in, but can't figure out where: he points out that while neutral countries do not take on a stand on serious human rights violations, they are furthering a massacre. CNN 30 Jan. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:39, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I’d say under “governments” > “Supernational” similar to the United Nations. Bohbye ( talk) 07:05, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I meant European Union and Lima Group Bohbye ( talk) 07:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Please add the RASD under non-UN states
https://www.spsrasd.info/news/fr/articles/2018/08/06/16752.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 04:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The European Parliament has recgonized Guaidó as interim president. However, member states of the EU have not recognized either as president yet. The European Parliament is urging member states to follow suit. [Source]
For those concerned about the map, none of the European countries have recognized a president yet and only have issued a joint declration showing support for the National Assembly. ---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
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@ Simon1811 and @ Jamez42: You've both violated WP:3RR by this point. Either you stop edit warring and discuss your issues on this talk page or I'll have no choice but to bring you both to WP:ANEW. Impru20 talk 14:02, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Jamez42 is not being very cooperative so its difficult. Simon1811 ( talk) 14:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
IMHO both need to take a chill pill for 24 hours Bohbye ( talk) 15:16, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
How should this be marked in the map, since not all EU countries themselves have recognized him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.10.241.96 ( talk) 18:46, January 31, 2019 (UTC)
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The article 2019 Venezuelan protests is about the protests against and for Maduro in the context of the presidential crisis. I don't think they warrant an article on their own, they should be merged here. Cambalachero ( talk) 14:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
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@ ZiaLater: If wikipedia is to mention that certain opposition parties were not allowed to participate then wikipedia should state why they were not allowed for neutrality, balance and context. Ignoring why they were banned would be like ignoring why Guaido felt the need to challenge Maduro claim to the presidency. In other words it ignores important context. Simon1811 ( talk) 22:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
OK, lots of wasted time here. I went and looked for the edit in question myself, and posted it at the top of this thread. If you would reference the edit you are questioning, along with your sources, we could all use our time more productively. If I really have to do this myself, I am going to grumble ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:45, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Jamez42: @ SandyGeorgia: This Spanish article explains why the were banned. Would you two have any objections to using this as a source to base any proposed insertion? Hopefully then we can work from there. Simon1811 ( talk) 23:50, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
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The beginning of Background reads "Following the death of former President Hugo Chávez, Venezuelans suffered a socioeconomic crisis under his successor..." but per our own Crisis in Venezuela page, the socioeconomic crisis began sometime in 2010, which is during the Chávez era and before his death. We have another 2013-present economic crisis in Venezuela page that specifies 2013, but that seems arbitrary and notes the declining indicators from 2012. 129.93.184.33 ( talk) 15:20, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Surely there's a more appropriate infobox template than {{ Infobox military conflict}} for this? {{ Infobox civil conflict}}, perhaps? If there's no objection I'll convert it over later today. ansh 666 03:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Can we please have some more sources for these entries? I just removed Mexico as the source by it just said that Nicolás Maduro reached out to them for support. There is no indication that Mexico has agreed to support him or help out. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 22:48, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Italy just recognized the new government Theasiancowboy ( talk) 22:56, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Mexico AMLO said again that they're remain neutral 9 hours ago Theasiancowboy ( talk) 01:57, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
At the moment this appears to be an unjustified content fork. Additionally there are POV issues. In the lead Maduro is declared in wiki-voice to be an illegitimate president. Ad Orientem ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
I think that 2019 Venezuelan coup d'état may be an article that can be kept and improved on, since the 23 January events had international significance, but with a bad title, because
At the same time, I think Kingsif is in perfectly good faith in making this article, and I suspect only time will really tell if it warrants having on its own (also with respect to WP:ITN). Right now I think it's worth being worked on, and this request should probably remain open for longer.
LjL ( talk) 23:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Do not change the title to '2019 Venezuelan coup d'état' it was not a coup, it was the people and President Guaido following the orders of the Constitution. Therefore, it is just a crisis User:Ballers19 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Done: Merged----
ZiaLater (
talk)
05:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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! Countries that recognize Juan Guaido !! Countries that recognize Nicolas Maduro Crisd000 ( talk) 14:46, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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before any edit wars happen: @ Nice4What: and @ ZiaLater:, please discuss Palestine.
@ ParadiseDesertOasis8888: Any chance you can put the Neutral states somewhere else? The infobox is barely readable now. Kingsif ( talk) 21:59, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ BobNesh: Kosovo is not recognised by the UN, but it is recognised by other countries - including Venezuela - as a state. Wikipedia is neutral on if it's a state or not, so we can't pass judgement on that. No matter whether you think it's a state or not, it gets to go in the infobox. Remarkably, in the "Non-UN" section, with other nations that users like you could dispute because you don't believe in them. (Not to mention, Venezuela does recognise Kosovo). Kingsif ( talk) 16:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Wrong! Venezuela doesn't recognise Kosovo. BobNesh ( talk) 16:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Kingsif: Palestine is a non-UN state. I thought that is where it belonged in the infobox?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Nice4What: Not sure what "Non-UN" pertains to in the infobox. I thought it meant member states and not observers. What do you think?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:22, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Jim7049: Let's not edit war. You keep using the same source, but if you actually read it, you'll notice that it says:
"As oil-rich Venezuela’s main ally and creditor, China faces a dilemma – caught between backing Maduro and not taking sides – as it weighs the implications of a growing social and political crisis on its multibillion-dollar investment, analysts said. Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying called on “all parties to remain rational and keep calm, and reach a political settlement through peaceful dialogue”. Asked directly if China recognised Maduro, Hua said Beijing sent representatives to his inauguration. “We respect Venezuela’s efforts to uphold its sovereignty, independence and stability,” she added. “China opposes foreign forces from interfering into Venezuela affairs.”"
Most sources are saying China has supported Maduro. We will see how this turns out, though.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:11, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Should the Saint Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, and Saint Vincent and the Grenadines be shortened to St. or remain as is? The infobox uses both right now. I think they should be Saint because that's what's used in their Wikipedia articles. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 ( talk) 06:45, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
ZiaLater, one question, why did you eliminate the Democratic Party of Equatorial Guinea and SYRIZA? Can not political parties be mentioned? Several political movements of the left or far left around the world have expressed their recognition to Maduro as president.-- Gustavo Parker ( talk) 07:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
There are thousands of parties worldwide and all of them have opinions. Makes no sense to start listing party opinions outside of Venezuela Bohbye ( talk) 09:38, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
That comment is worth a citation needed template when both the percentage of people who voted for Maduro was very high and also the UN observers involved in the said election came forward to say it was fair. Just because NATO disputes something doesn't make it "widely disputed" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:6D52:CB30:A8D0:6DB2:BD0A:7D4 ( talk) 01:30, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
PDVSA and Electricidad de Caracas should not be listed since they are not included in the cited reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jsaturno ( talk • contribs) 10:29, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
https://mundo.sputniknews.com/europa/201901251085023338-serbia-no-reconoce-a-guaido/ 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 23:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
A few countries listed as supporting Maduro is not clear on whether there is support or not. Example being Mexico which has a decisively non-intervention policy, and does not outright support Maduro. They are probably closer to neutral or no statement rather than outright support in the same way some leaders from other countries have expressed it. From France24 republishing L’agence France-Presse AFP [1]:
""We recognize the authorities elected in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution," Jesus Ramirez, spokesman for Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, told AFP. He later wrote on Twitter that Mexico was "analyzing the situation in Venezuela." "For the moment, there is no change in our diplomatic relations with the country nor its government," he said." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.21.209 ( talk) 06:53, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics-britain/uk-supports-venezuelas-guaido-as-national-assembly-head-pm-mays-spokesman-idUKKCN1PI1IQ The map and infobox need to be updated to reflect the UK's support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 19:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
True, found a better source. This NYT article states that the Foreign Secretary very clearly backs Guaido as the leader of Venezuela, not Maduro. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/01/24/world/europe/24reuters-venezuela-politics-britain-hunt.html Willing to leave it be until May's govt makes an official declaration of recognition but that should be coming shortly. 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 19:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Alright, no worries. Will keep looking out for the UK's stance. Can post an update here tomorrow, if they put out something official. 129.246.254.12 ( talk) 20:10, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
In the map Uruguay is blue, and the Mexico is red. But we don't have sources about those countries. 73.158.103.169 ( talk) 19:07, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Stop the edit wars, please. Bohbye ( talk) 23:52, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Spain, France, Germany and the UK issued an ultimatum to Maduro, threatening to recognize Guiadó in eight days unless free elections are called: [2] -- Mr.Election ( talk) 21:08, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
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The current president is Nicolas Maduro under international law 86.19.149.99 ( talk) 16:11, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
As Hamas and the South African Communist Party are listed as organisations that endorse Maduro as the legitimate president, it may be worth adding to the infobox another supporter, Greece's governing political party Syriza. ( http://www.ekathimerini.com/236948/article/ekathimerini/news/syriza-expresses-support-for-venezuelas-maduro ) 19:22, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Who maintains it and if it’s not maintained why keep it? Bohbye ( talk) 09:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Mexico is neutral and not with either government: [3]. (Wasn't there a section for neutral governments in the info box previously?) David O. Johnson ( talk) 18:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Wasn’t and I proposed adding such a section Bohbye ( talk) 18:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/ RBL2000 ( talk) 17:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
− This article lists Sweden among countries that recognise Guaidó. But on Radio Sweden, it is reported that "Utrikesminister Margot Wallström vill inte kommentera om Sverige erkänner självutnämnde presidenten Jean Guaidó eller inte" (Foreign Minister Margot Wallström will not comment on whether Sweden recognises the self-styled president Juan Guaidó or not". ( https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=7139169 ) This makes me wonder how many of the other countries listed as "supporting" Guaidó's claim are factual and how many are made up, imagined or exaggerated. 22:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
We are going to have a hard time debating whether the article is accurate if my comments are going to get deleted for "original research". Is that really valid, to remove a comment from the talk page for original research? What I want to challenge is the article's infobox's claim that Sweden has recognised Guaidó. In response I cite this source: https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=7139169 where Sweden say they don't take a stance on that question. How does that count as research? And if it is research, how did the writer of the info in the infobox add that info without conducting research?? 86.175.201.238 ( talk) 22:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Officially they are not recognising either government; the head (used as source for Guaidó support) has retweeted it as well
https://twitter.com/eda_dfae/status/1088752224778506241?s=21 (Français)
https://twitter.com/swissmfa/status/1088761587790475265?s=21 (Anglais)
Both of them support Guaidó per several different sources:
References
The provided source for India did not state that it supports Maduro, yet some users are trying to synthetize it and argue that India should be there because it "recognized him before". It has been suggested that we should bring every country in the world into the infobox on Maduro's side unless it expressly supported Guaidó, which seems plain wrong. This article and infobox are meant for the presidential crisis conflict, and that infobox field is meant for parties in the conflict. If a country doesn't expressly get involved, that means they're not involved and are neutral, so it can't be automatically put on either side unless a proper source that reflects on that is provided. Nonetheless, rather than starting an edit war, maybe issues should be discussed here on the first place. Impru20 talk 22:38, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
If they don't recognize Guaido then they recognize Maduro, it is simple as that and that is clear unless India should spell it out. 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 23:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources.Impru20 talk 23:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Remove India from the list Theasiancowboy ( talk) 01:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Noah Feldman is expert in law, he analyzed the Venezuelan law/constituion and his article on Bloomberg is his conclussion, this should be implemented into the article as it explains and clarifies details of the crisis involving Venezuelan law/constitution for which Guaido and the opposition assert Maduro isn't the President of Venezuela. 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 00:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
I am not finding mention of European governments giving Maduro eight days to call elections, or they will back Gauido. Am I missing it? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 07:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Done the "eight days" appears well sourced.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
22:04, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The ruling party PDGE (in the name of the Président) has expressed support for Maduro. Should be added to both infobox and map
https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/ https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20190125/46887864/el-partido-gobernante-de-guinea-ecuatorial-expresa-solidaridad-con-maduro.html
Hamas, as the controller of the Gaza Strip should also be mentioned
PDVSA
CNBC is more reliable than the other website I believe
The only source stating Uruguay recognizes Maduro is Sputnik. In the Sputnik article, they even say that an official statement "will come out tomorrow or later, not today because what is coming from Caracas is being analyzed to make a statement where the emphasis will be to bring the parties closer and reach a peaceful solution of the controversy through the dialogue and negotiation". Here is the official statement that was released later by Uruguay. No official recognition of Maduro as of yet from what I can see from sources.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:45, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Not the only source now. Yahoo (AFP), Straits Times (Singapore) and SBS (Aus) have listed as such, along with North Korea. Nebakin ( talk) 11:30, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Is Mexico neutral now? I see it in this source and see they were removed from the infobox.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
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Italy officially does not support the National Assembly, as written in the article. Here the words of the PM Giuseppe Conte: "At this moment, is of fundamental importance to avoid an escalation in the country and prevent Venezuela - through the impository intervention by foreign countries - from becoming a field of division between global players."
https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2019/01/26/news/venezuela_governo_diviso_i_cinquestelle_stoppano_conte-217527748/ 93.48.40.135 ( talk) 21:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Republic of China is Taiwan's official name. Either edit it to Republic of China or Republic of China (Taiwan). Nebakin ( talk) 08:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/americas/maduro-vs-guaido-who-is-backing-whom-amid-crisis-in-venezuela https://www.sbs.com.au/news/maduro-vs-guaido-who-s-backing-whom-for-the-leadership-of-venezuela https://www.elpais.com.uy/mundo/aumenta-presion-maduro.html
Please implement on Foreign States that support Maduro. RBL2000 ( talk) 19:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Reading the sources, I do not see explicit statements by the African Union, Arab League or OPEC supporting Maduro, only the Cuban state-run source name dropping organizations in attendance to his inauguration. Mexico attended the inauguration as well, but has remained neutral to the conflict in official statements. Should African Union, Arab League and OPEC be removed until we can find statements and better sources? Also, Mercosur needs a citation for it to be included in support for Guaidó as well.
Pinging users to help with this: @ Irn: @ MaoGo: @ Panam2014: @ Kingsif: @ Jamez42:
Thanks in advance.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 11:07, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Done ----
ZiaLater (
talk)
23:15, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This map was created by AntoFran. It is proposed that the colors of each side must be different from green and black as these can be interpreted as good or evil, thus creating a bias in the article. The colors suggested are blue and yellow. This map also includes more countries since there are many more reliable sources in Spanish regarding this topic. FedericoFederico 19:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Ecuador, Jamaica, Haiti, Kosovo, Puerto Rico and Italy support the new government of Guaido and should be filled with BLUE Ballers19 ( talk) 23:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC) Ballers19 ( talk)
I can make color corrections to the map I made easily through the svg file. Green was initially used just for the recognition of Guaidó. Red is usually used in maps to associate to the PSUV party (Maduro), but other colors can be proposed for neutrality. I will take a look at it later when I have the chance.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 05:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Albania and Spain just recognized guaido presidency Theasiancowboy ( talk) 12:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Kingsif: @ Theasiancowboy: Discussion about the map is here. Provide sources.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
France, Fr. Guiana, Germany, Albania, and Portugal all have supported Guiadó. Also, Uruguay never endorsed Maduro. Like Mexico, they offered a neutral position for dialogue. Please fix colors for all. ( Ballers19)
There is some more inconsistency in map coloring. Crimea, which is part of the Ukraine, for some reason is colored red, whilst the Ukraine didn't present its position on Maduro. 130.149.12.180 ( talk) 17:32, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The term "presidential crisis" which appears both in the title and the text of the article is poor and should be replaced with "constitutional crisis." - Ad Orientem ( talk) 20:08, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
I support the current title of "2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis". It's a crisis and involves the president, that much is certain. Almost everything else is unclear. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:45, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Should a table of responses be used, and foreign support placed in the infobox be removed? I think its more appropriate as it would better capture the statements by various foreign governments, while retaining the key centrality of internal Venezuelan political groups in the infobox. I am wary that content focusing on Venezuela and Venezuelan groups will be brushed aside after it becomes an international political role.
The style would be similar to this for example [5].
We almost never have a full table of statements; these often will get moved to sub-articles that eventually get deleted. The press releases are primary sources, and can be collected and analyzed by other sources. The details of the binary "supporting Maduro/Guiado" are getting included here one way or the other, I think we may want to move those details out of the infobox and into tables in the main article text. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Switzerland for example clearly said that, see earlier comment on this talk page.
I don’t suggest to list countries that didn’t say anything, but to do list countries officially not picking any side. Bohbye ( talk) 18:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Why does this warrant mention in the lead? As if unfree media is news in Venezuela? No context ...
And if it must stay in the lead, can the grammar please be adjusted? Venezuela began ... beginning ... is repetitive. How about, Venezuela began censoring social media on 21 January? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Could we please replace the mixed language jargon, open cabildo with public assembly throughout? This jargon is not necessary or helpful, and people who do not speak Spanish have to click out to see what it means. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Now that there is a section for neutral countries, Côte d’Ivoire should be there because of their comments at the UN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 10:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Something has to be clarified. Do we include nations that state that they support the National Assembly in the infobox? Or do we only include nations that only recognize Guaidó?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Impru20: @ Kingsif: Made some changes to the infobox to make a better explanation. Is this better?---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders and the like is not considered official opposition / non intervention. Those politicians do not dictate policy, the president does according to the US constitution. Additionally, we do not list internal opposition of any country to the official policy of their country regarding Venezuela, why list internal US opposition. Therefore that section needs to be removed. Bohbye ( talk) 22:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Why are they listed on the page as supporters of Maduro? What is so special of them being “organizations” that have any say in this crisis? Are we going to list the opinions of every armed militia group worldwide? Removed WP:BOLD - Bohbye ( talk) 18:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
There are a lot of threads about individual countries on the infobox. I'm archiving those that have been done and don't have further discussion of value. Instead of starting a new section for future changes, please consider asking for them here. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
the king — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 08:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
The Heads of Government of the Caribbean Community has called on the United Nations to take the lead.
CaribDigita ( talk) 02:10, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Spain's President recognized Guaidó. [1] ParadiseDesertOasis8888 ( talk) 02:57, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
References
I propose that this information be moved out of the infobox (where it is hidden due to space concerns) and added to the article body as a table (un-hidden). It's not very useful where it is, and doesn't show up in my browser when I try to find it to check whether countries are (or are not) present; I've had to use the raw wiki-text to view the data. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 22:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm trying to get all the collapsible lists to bulleted multi-column lists, but it takes time (and there are edit conflicts). power~enwiki ( π, ν) 22:49, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The current version of the infobox has hyper-links to the section lower in the article where the full list of nations is found; I think this is a good approach. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 23:31, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
As a note - I think I've done all the talk page cleanup / article structure cleanup I can do myself. I'll continue to archive threads manually that are >24 hours out of date on the talk page. A few threads (in particular the map one) I plan to leave on the talk page indefinitely. Time permitting, I hope to edit the "Timeline" section, focusing on pre-January 23 events. Regarding what the current state of international recognition is, I plan to only make changes requested on the talk page. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 23:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The Venezuelan Armed Forces have pledged loyalty to Maduro. Should be added under organisations or something — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 13:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
Support Guaidó
https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1155036/venezuela-le-maroc-apporte-son-soutien-au-president-autoproclame-juan-guaido.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 22:28, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
the sources are mostly dead links — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 02:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Nations who clearly said their position is non interference with internal politics of Venezuela shuld not be listed under the section of supporting Maduro. There shuld be a new subsection of “Non Interference policy” under the Maduro section (similar to the “support the National Assembly” subsection under “Supporting Guaidó”). Sorting it out this way will be reflect the actual statement those countries. Bohbye ( talk) 17:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
"On 23 January 2019, the European Union gave its first stance on Venezuela, issuing a declaration stating that "the EU fully supports the National Assembly as the democratically elected institution whose powers need to be restored and respected", though some of its member states, like the United Kingdom, later said they supported Guaidó".
This contradicts the lead section: "The dispute came to a head in early 2019 when the National Assembly of Venezuela stated that the results of the election were invalid and declared Juan Guaidó as the acting president, citing several clauses of the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution".
As I understand it, the EU, like the UK, supports Guaidó.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mock wurzel soup ( talk • contribs) 00:22, January 27, 2019 Mock wurzel soup (UTC)
Mock wurzel soup, you forgot to sign. I am not seeing the contradiction you mention. Could you rephrase your question? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 06:30, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Before they are placed back into the infobox, I need to explain a few things. Political language can be complicated sometimes, especially in a situation where someone has to take sides. This is why it is recommended to use official declarations and explicit messages of support for both Maduro and Guaidó. We can not assume what there words or what the sources are trying to say or that would be WP:OR.
On to Antigua and Barbuda and Belarus. Antigua and Barbuda called for non-intervention. A lot of countries have, but not given a statement on whether they recognize Maduro. We can not assume they recognize Maduro (or Guaidó) if they do not explicitly say so. As for Belarus, the source is literally just Maduro talking on the phone. It does not have a single statement from Belarus or any audible dialogue from their side. This is sourced from the Maduro government as well, so a more proper and official source must be placed as well.
As a result of this, both nations will be removed until we can find some proper sources. Feel free to add the sources below and we can discuss how to add them. Until then, please stop with the edit warring and let's keep Wikipedia accurate.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 06:07, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
The only source for Palestine's support for Maduro is from the Maduro government from 10 January 2019, the date of his inauguration. Just noting this here on the talk page.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 16:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Definitely means it needs to be removed unless there is an alternative reliable source. Bohbye ( talk) 01:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Given that the party (Nepal Communist Party) leads a 2/3 majority government, it is probably the de facto official stance of the government. 103.10.28.175 ( talk) 05:09, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
The section "Public opinion" has 3 references, to the same pro-opposition website, and it links to Meganalisis (redlink). NPOV? I don't think so. emijrp ( talk) 21:34, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
So public opinion polls conducted by the opposition is somehow informative and unbiased. It's so sad that wikipedia is becoming the "neutral" voice of western imperialism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 14:59, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/29/venezuela-crisis-new-zealand-guaido-interim-president?CMP=twt_gu 77.217.233.160 ( talk) 02:25, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
I think Vietnam should be added in Vocal neutrality section, despite this country remains communist and ties strongly with Venezuela. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.80.21.139 ( talk) 11:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
While I think it sounds like a very soft support for Maduro, should be added to the neutral countries list
http://www.mirco.gov.na/documents/140810/673389/MEDIA+RELEASE+-+NAMIBIA+POSITION+ON+VENEZUELA/e989db0c-ce0a-4dc6-b23f-b2b0f22219fe — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 05:20, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
@ Simon1811: [7]? Our article ALBA doesn't say so. In fact, we probably should not select out any specific ALBA members without sources. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:29, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
It is not a member but the country still expressed support for Maduro---- Fenetrejones ( talk) 11:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Neutral
103.70.152.5 ( talk) 11:37, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
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Switzerland recognize Juan Guaidó as President of Venezuela. Said by Bénédict de Cerjat, Swiss Ambassador, Head of the Americas Division, Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs in his oficial twitter (in German): https://twitter.com/SwissMFAamerica/status/1088397932397776896 2A02:1205:C697:4830:5072:5CF3:FF8:349D ( talk) 20:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Guaido as acting president may be pleasing for US but for other countries liKe china,russia,india certainly it is not. Us just want to involve itself around the world's crisis and understand itself as the universal boss but now tHe time has changed a lot dear US. Ankit Tomar official ( talk) 20:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
https://www.khmertimeskh.com/572885/pm-warns-against-foreign-interference/ 95.168.120.43 ( talk) 07:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
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@ Simon1811: You completely disregarded my sources proving that an important part of the opposition wanted Guaidó to take oath, such as the Supreme Tribunal in exile or the July 16 parliamentary fraction. Quoting Capriles is interesting since he has lost a lot of confidence in the public after the 2013 elections and his promotion of participation in fraudulent elections and dialogues between government and opposition that have turned into negotiations. [10] [11] -- Jamez42 ( talk) 12:25, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@
Simon1811: For the claims above, of the opposition. --
Jamez42 (
talk)
13:28, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Could someone please place a link to the edit in question at the top of this section? That would save everyone a lot of time, and will also help admins deal with tenditious editing. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 13:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree with SandyGeorgia and Jamez42 here. Capriles has not been very relevent for awhile and has even distanced himself from the opposition by leaving the MUD. Seems to be out of the loop. Since the TSJ in exile was formed, a transitional government has been in the making. ---- ZiaLater ( talk) 14:40, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
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Someone is deleting countries that are clearly supporting Maduro on the grounds that they have not said “I support Maduro”
Antigua Barbuda is obviously supporting Maduro with statements like calling the crisis 'a brazen regime change' by the us, something that 'has no constitutional backing', and 'no support for international law'. The PM also called the CARICOM statement expressing concern 'timid' and believes that the group should have stated its position more forcefully. It is a support of Maduro.
Belarus: Nobody is going to invent a phone call with another leader. Imagine if he did it with France (you would get a statement saying it is untrue within minutes)… why doesn’t he do it with more influential countries such as India / Indonesia who have not released official statements? It is weird that you need Lukashenko to write an official statement when he has personally called the president of the country.
Équatorial Guinea: Point has been mentioned several times but apparently the RULING PARTY writing in the name of the president himself is not official enough? What? It is totally fine. Would you consider a statement made by the representative to the UN unofficial too since it is not the President/prime minister?
Serbia is not the strongest form of support but he has said that he does not intend to recognise Guaidó at any time
Laos: The representative of Laos met with the representative from Venezuela, there is a picture of them as well. Can’t see how it might not have happened since there is only word from Maduro’s side.
Uruguay and Mexico: Yes they are wanting to mediate but both have explicitly said they recognise Maduro which is what the info box and the map both claim to display
Hamas: which governs Gaza, has said that they recognise Maduro and should be added as well
Switzerland (on the map): is there because of a tweet from the Head of the Americas division of the MFA but the official word of the MFA (retweeted by this same person at a later time) is disregarded.
PDVSA: also apparently support Maduro
Sources:
Antigua/Barbuda: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/haiti/article225070430.html
Équatorial Guinea: https://www.pdge-guineaecuatorial.com/manifiesto-de-solidaridad-con-el-partido-socialista-unido-de-venezuela-y-su-gobierno-legitimo/
Mexico, Uruguay: https://m.perfil.com/noticias/internacional/paises-apoyan-nicolas-maduro-rusia-china-bolivia-cuba-siria-nicaragua-salvador-iran.phtml?rd=1
Switzerland: https://twitter.com/swissmfa/status/1088761587790475265 (again this was retweeted by Bénédict de Cerjat)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 02:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.209.247.135 ( talk) 01:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Why is there no mention about troika of tyranny? The article as it currently is makes it look like that USA has no part on what's happening now at Venezuela — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.49.96 ( talk) 22:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Done there is now a "See also" section linking to this article.
power~enwiki (
π,
ν)
18:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
merged power~enwiki ( π, ν) 21:56, 28 January 2019 (UTC) John Bolton recently explained the US's position on Venezuela:
Venezuela's one of the three countries I call the 'troika of tyranny'. It'll make a big difference to the United States economically if we could have American oil companies really invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezeula. It'd be good for the people of Venezuela, it'd be good for the people of the United States.
I think this is useful to explain the US's efforts to free Venezuela from the tyranny of not being enslaved by the US. Can someone please incorporate this into the article? Thanks. 2601:644:1:B7CB:B50A:8F52:F09E:E13F ( talk) 22:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
According to wikipedia's own entry on troika of tyranny: The phrase "troika of tyranny" was first used by United States National Security Advisor John R. Bolton during a speech on behalf of President Donald Trump at Miami Dade College on November 1, 2018 to describe the nations of Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. So the "troika of tyranny" concept clearly predates the current events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 10:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Fenetrejones, in this edit, you have reinstated without discussion for the second time text that is sourced only to a Venezuelan government site. "It seems believable" is not among the reasons given at WP:RS for determining reliability of sources, and you are edit warring; please see WP:3RR and discuss your edits on talk. Do you have a third-party, independent reliable source for this information? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:20, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Removed Laos. No other sources showing support.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 21:18, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Laos' stance is directly from the official web-page of the Ministry of Popular Power for Communication and Information of Venezuela. Please double check before edit warring. /info/en/?search=Ministry_of_Popular_Power_for_Communication_and_Information Nebakin ( talk) 11:26, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
With this edit, maintenance tags are removed, and text that has no consensus and is not reliably sourced is re-instated, after more than three warnings. Correodelorinoco is just another government source-- not reliable to source statements about other governments. The Venezuelan government received an ambassador on the day of the protests; construing that to imply support one way or another is original research. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why are only Pro-Guaido/Anti-Maduro protests covered and those Pro-Maduro/Anti-Guaido ignored in the article? The extreme bias is evident with selective implementation of information.
https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1089969569928826880
https://twitter.com/venanalysis/status/1089845509681045504
You forgot to put on Social Media sections Hand Off Venezuela... Emijrp please add it to it.
RBL2000 ( talk) 19:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
We now have two sections claiming this happened, one for events on January 13 and the second for events on January 23. How should we describe these? power~enwiki ( π, ν) 19:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Kingsif is intentionally taking advantage of so called neutrality to remove Belarus from list of countries that recognize Maduro as President of Venezuela.
> Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko and Venezuela President Nicolas Maduro have had a telephone conversation
The context is clear, otherwise Belarus would not write "President Nicolas Maduro" and this backups what Maduro and Venezuelan government said yet people in here were saying not valid because it comes from them.
“We absolutely reject any external interference with the domestic affairs of a sovereign state, including efforts aimed at destabilization of the situation in the country,”
It is clear they're against interventionism and foreing powers meddling in Venezuelan politics. RBL2000 ( talk) 23:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC) — RBL2000 ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Some users are actively trying to promote a pro-Guaidó/anti-Maduro stance. In the cases of Belarus and Greece, they both need to be added to support of Maduro.
Imagine thinking that state-owned agencies are not a reliable source for the same state they work for. The Belarusian Telegraphic Agency has confirmed what Maduro tweeted that Lukashenko called Maduro assuring him of support. They 'reject any external interference with the domestic affairs' of the 'friendly country of Venezuela'. This is a staunch support for Maduro.
On a side note: pretty much every single country is calling for a peaceful settlement of the situation. They might have different desires as to the final outcome, but no only is actively wishing for war.
For Greece, the Independent states, 'Now the Greek government of Alexis Tsipras is backing the Maduro dictatorship while other European-left prime ministers, like Spain’s Pedro Sanchez who knows the truth of the Maduro tyranny, are calling for new elections.'
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/venezuela-nicolas-maduro-us-sanctions-alexis-tsipras-greece-support-a8751771.html JoyceJonathan2 ( talk) 02:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Seriously Wikipedia, how many more sources do you need to accept the fact that Greece stands by Nicolas Maduro? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.13.46 ( talk) 10:36, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
According to Belarusian, Russian, Kazakh, and Ukrainian media, he is supporting Maduro (and before you say all of them are biased, we cannot just discount entire countries based on their governments)
Belarus
Belsat "Беларусь, фактычна, прызналася ў тым, што стала на бок Мадура."
https://belsat.eu/news/lukashenka-parazmaulyau-z-madura-pa-telefone/
BelaPAN (need subscription to see the full article, but the headline states "Lukashenka expresses support to Nicolas Maduro")
https://en.belapan.by/news/politics/?page=2&filterby=month&startdate=2019-01-01&chunksize=15
Russia
Lenta "Лукашенко встал на сторону Мадуро"
https://lenta.ru/news/2019/01/26/lukash_maduro/
Izvestia "Лукашенко лично заявил Мадуро о своей поддержке"
https://iz.ru/838437/2019-01-26/lukashenko-lichno-zaiavil-maduro-o-svoei-podderzhke
Gazeta "Президент Белоруссии Александр Лукашенко заявил о своей поддержке венесуэльского президента Николаса Мадуро."
https://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2019/01/25/n_12562537.shtml
Interfax "Лукашенко выразил поддержку президенту Венесуэлы Мадуро"
https://www.interfax.ru/world/647794
InfoReactor "Отмечается, что Лукашенко заявил Мадуро, что Венесуэла всегда может рассчитывать на белорусскую поддержку...."
Kazakhstan
Tengri News "Лукашенко заявил, что поддерживает Мадуро"
https://tengrinews.kz/sng/lukashenko-zayavil-chto-podderjivaet-maduro-362083/
Ukraine
Новое Время "Лукашенко поддержал Мадуро"
https://nv.ua/world/countries/lukashenko-podderzhal-maduro-50003246.html
KP "Глава государства заявил о поддержке президента страны Николаса Мадуро и добавил, что выступает против любого внешнего вмешательства в дела суверенного государства." "Президент Беларусе лично позвонил своему венесуэльскому коллеге и выразил свое сопереживание."
https://kp.ua/politics/629303-lukashenko-podderzhal-nykolasa-maduro
103.70.152.5 ( talk) 11:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
It should be clarified that the election was "widely disputed" by the United States and its allies, not by the free countries of the world. 2601:644:1:B7CB:7845:7B76:A134:441B ( talk) 08:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Cited, [15] and disagree with the OP. It is unsightly to overload a lead with citations, so here are a few more from ProQuest:
Since before the lock I wrote a bit on the constitutional basis of the interim government, citing this [16] authored by Guaidó himself, under "Basis of the Challenge". I missed adding a few key points, on what Guaidó and the National Assembly want. I think the Roadmap provided by the opposition is a quite clear indication of what they expressly want. Its listed quite clearly from this source:
"Our road map is clear: stop the usurpation with national unity and through external and internal pressure; form a transitional government to open channels for humanitarian assistance; restore the rule of law and the separation of powers; and call for free elections so all Venezuelans can decide their future." -Juan Guaidó
I don't have a wikipedia account, if another user can make this edit I would welcome it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.113.101.67 ( talk) 12:54, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
Seriously, Mexico's position sourced to urdupoint.com ??? What other messes are to be revealed in the sourcing of this article? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
I would like to work this in, but can't figure out where: he points out that while neutral countries do not take on a stand on serious human rights violations, they are furthering a massacre. CNN 30 Jan. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 04:39, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I’d say under “governments” > “Supernational” similar to the United Nations. Bohbye ( talk) 07:05, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
I meant European Union and Lima Group Bohbye ( talk) 07:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Please add the RASD under non-UN states
https://www.spsrasd.info/news/fr/articles/2018/08/06/16752.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.70.152.5 ( talk) 04:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The European Parliament has recgonized Guaidó as interim president. However, member states of the EU have not recognized either as president yet. The European Parliament is urging member states to follow suit. [Source]
For those concerned about the map, none of the European countries have recognized a president yet and only have issued a joint declration showing support for the National Assembly. ---- ZiaLater ( talk) 12:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
@ Simon1811 and @ Jamez42: You've both violated WP:3RR by this point. Either you stop edit warring and discuss your issues on this talk page or I'll have no choice but to bring you both to WP:ANEW. Impru20 talk 14:02, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Jamez42 is not being very cooperative so its difficult. Simon1811 ( talk) 14:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
IMHO both need to take a chill pill for 24 hours Bohbye ( talk) 15:16, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
How should this be marked in the map, since not all EU countries themselves have recognized him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.10.241.96 ( talk) 18:46, January 31, 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article 2019 Venezuelan protests is about the protests against and for Maduro in the context of the presidential crisis. I don't think they warrant an article on their own, they should be merged here. Cambalachero ( talk) 14:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Sock, blocked |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
@ ZiaLater: If wikipedia is to mention that certain opposition parties were not allowed to participate then wikipedia should state why they were not allowed for neutrality, balance and context. Ignoring why they were banned would be like ignoring why Guaido felt the need to challenge Maduro claim to the presidency. In other words it ignores important context. Simon1811 ( talk) 22:54, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
OK, lots of wasted time here. I went and looked for the edit in question myself, and posted it at the top of this thread. If you would reference the edit you are questioning, along with your sources, we could all use our time more productively. If I really have to do this myself, I am going to grumble ... SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:45, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Jamez42: @ SandyGeorgia: This Spanish article explains why the were banned. Would you two have any objections to using this as a source to base any proposed insertion? Hopefully then we can work from there. Simon1811 ( talk) 23:50, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
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