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"An individual who follows the diet or philosophy is known as a vegan." I think this fails to make it clear that there's it's not possible to follow the vegan philosophy without following a vegan diet. What do you think? Countryboy603 ( talk) 15:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Doesn't the page contradict itself by saying there's such a thing as "environmental veganism"? It states in the intro that a vegan rejects the commodity status of animals. Countryboy603 ( talk) 00:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
(from above)
Yes, you can exploit a glass of milk.
exploitation
noun [ U ]
US /ˌek.splɔɪˈteɪ.ʃən/ UK /ˌek.splɔɪˈteɪ.ʃən/
the use of something in order to get an advantage from it:
Britain's exploitation of its natural gas reserves began after the Second World War.
Drinking a glass of milk is using it to get an advantage from it. Countryboy603 ( talk) 00:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Ok, I found some articles showing arguments from both sides of the debate: https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/can-vegans-eat-eggs-from-backyard-hens https://www.livekindly.com/honey-debate-vegan-not-vegan/ Can I re-add that now? Countryboy603 ( talk) 21:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Would the photos fit better on Animal welfare, since vegans object to farming as a whole, not just factory farming? Countryboy603 ( talk) 15:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Countryboy, thanks for your edits on Veganism. Just a little feedback from my side. I think some of the edits are too obsessed with details on ethical questions that have not and will probably never be definitively answered -- because they are irrelevant (roadkill, dead fish). That is because these are edge cases that most vegans will never come across in their life and that play no role for veganism as a way of life. We have more than enough Autobahns in Austria and Germany and roadkill is really not something that's on the menu here, not even in highway rest stops ;-) Bringing these issues into the article gives a false impression of what veganism is about for most of the people. Questions of roadkill and eating dead fish may be of interest for internet forums and online life but play no role in real life. CarlFromVienna ( talk) 07:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Ok, but should we add a section for how vegans disagree about whether bivalves are suitable for vegans? Countryboy603 ( talk) 04:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Dead link. Change the link from: Animal products > General > Logos > "Vegan Society sunflower"
You can change it to https://www.vegansociety.com//sites/default/files/uploads/VeganTM-Palette1-PLUM.png which is a working link. Trimoxx ( talk) 19:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2A00:23C4:D920:4401:2530:DE50:E974:A7E2 ( talk) 17:59, 30 March 2023 (UTC)Hal sparks is no longer a vegan he is a carnivore and likes to eat raw meat now if you look at his recent Facebook posts you will see confirmation of this.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate.
PianoDan (
talk)
18:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the subtitle "prevalence by country" and "Germany" there is a straightforward error that misquotes the source.
"A government-commissioned survey indicates that as of 2021, 2% of German residents follow a vegan diet, with higher incidence rates among the younger, the less educated (people who ended their formal education with Hauptschule graduation), and residents of former West Germany.[150]"
should be:
"A government-commissioned survey indicates that as of 2021, 2% of German residents follow a vegan diet, with higher incidence rates among the younger, the higher educated, and residents of former West Germany.[150]"
I'd skip the explanation of what higher education constitutes, but if you want to keep it, it could say "(people who ended their formal education with Abitur or a university degree)".
The source is the already linked "Forsa Ernährungsreport 2021", page 13.
Best Sadd26 ( talk) 17:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
People in the Indus Valley Civilisation ate many kinds of meat. (cow may be an exception). There are ceramic/potsherds from IVC (Kalibangan) which contains goat sacrifice etched on it. ChandlerMinh ( talk) 17:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the two (2) Logos (white "v" with a leaf on one end inside a green circle within a green box) as well as the related text: "The symbol widely used to denote a vegan-friendly product". This is not the symbol widely used to denote a vegan-friendly product, but a protected trademark which requires a license to use in accordance with the following registration [1]. In addition, this is an incorrect representation of the V-Label. Lswissveg ( talk) 12:28, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
References
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Veganism by Country: The statement about Germany is wrong. The cited reference 150 specifically states people with higher education are MORE likely to have consumed vegan food, not the one with less education. JJSiegl ( talk) 11:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
There should be an article on 'veganism in culture' by decades, centuries, millennia, continents, nations, communities, types of reference, etc. Celebrities and others are constantly mentioning their veganism or 'forays into veganism', and even criminals have been described(correctly or incorrectly) as vegetarian or vegan (sometimes the imputation or 'references' or citations may be malevolent actions, but significant nonetheless in their impacts and ensuing discussions). For instance, the current #idaho4 real crime murder mystery in Moscow, Idaho, has a 'vegan pizza' reference (suspect ordered 'vegan pizza' twice while purportedly stalking the eventual victims) and several vegans have been victims of violent crime (with their diets mentioned in the news or the obituaries - e.g. NYC vegan Central Park jogger, or current Portland, Oregon victims, etc.
the position expired in december of 2021 and has not been renewed (despite having been renewed in continuance since some time in the 1990s.) i say that should either be nuanced in the text or remove the reference to the AND. link: [ [11]] BigMouthCommie ( talk) 19:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
although reference No. 253 is grouped into a single sentence that suggests that a vegan diet is appropriate at any age, the reference explicitly says it is not recommended for children under the age of 2.
i'm of the opinion that this section, at best, was written hastily, with sources which were not well-chosen to support the claims in this section. to that end, i am under the impression that there is a way to tag an article to be scrutinized and have references strengthened. can anyone help me apply that tag? commie ( talk) 15:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
as i continue my way through the article, i found reference No. 251 which says that the australian NHMRC has issued similar language to the AND. when i followed up, that's not true. the referenced source is a press release from a vegan advocacy organization which is spinning the actual NHMRC recommendation and arrives at language which, even with the spin, is short of the claim made by the AND. when the subject of the article is consulted, no language about whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthy is available at all: they only say that consuming non-animal protein sources can help add variety to Australians diets. it is never suggested that they recommend eliminating animal products.
for this reason, i believe this reference should either be updated to a source that actually shows a statement from the NHMRC that supports the language that's in the article, or we should eliminate this reference altogether. having spent some time on the NHMRC site, and myself being unable to find any recommendations for-or-against vegetarian or vegan diets, it is my preference to remove this reference and language altogether. commie ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I am suggesting that the phrase "particularly in diet" in the opening paragraph be removed.
It is common to refer to veganism as just a diet, a special form of vegetarianism. The definition of "vegetarianism" itself depends on the region or context, since it may mean lacto-ovo vegetarianism in Western countries whil it means lacto-vegetarianism in India. And it could even be an exact synonym with "vegan" when qualified with the word "pure".
According to the Vegan Society's official definition of "veganism"
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
— The Vegan Society
This suggests that "veganism" is not centered on diet or the stated health benefits of excluding animal products in one's diet, but on the conscious exclusion of animal exploitation. The word "vegan" can apply to other products such as clothing, cosmetics, and shopping, while the word "vegetarianism" specifically refers to food and diet; we hear about "vegan leather boots" but it would be weird to say "vegetarian leather boots".
--MULLIGANACEOUS-- ( talk) 22:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
It's been flagged as not scholarly but unless someone can quickly support the claims made in the documentary using up-to-date, reliable information, it really should just be removed. This section in particular reads like a PSA for veganism and is not very informative.
To a lesser extent, this is true for the following section where healthcare costs are estimated. The study estimates cost savings across multiple diets, giving a range for each group. What made it to Wikipedia is a few numbers, apparently crunched by whoever edited the section, without any context or explanation of how they made these calculations. The study actually estimates much higher savings for switching to a vegan diet, albeit lower than it would be if the entire U.S. were vegetarian. Without the overall context of the study, though, these excerpts are trivial and possibly misleading.
An article like this really should not be locked until it's cleaned up, at least to the point that it's not spreading misinformation. That defeats the purpose of locking. 2603:7081:1603:A300:5D2A:5E39:2A96:6A62 ( talk) 23:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Alison Homewood of The New Internationalist argued that the 2014 documentary film, Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret, was influential in causing some social media users on Facebook and Vimeo to become vegans. [1]
I suggest we split this into two pages - "Veganism" and "Vegan diet". Countryboy603 ( talk) 18:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References
in the History section it states that "In the sixth century, St. David is reported to have lived on a vegan diet." I checked out the reference for this and in the very next line to that quoted it says that he drank milk. So the reference does not state that he was Vegan as implied in this article, just that he was vegetarian. I will remove the sentence from this article. Bodrugan ( talk) 08:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
"An individual who follows the diet or philosophy is known as a vegan." I think this fails to make it clear that there's it's not possible to follow the vegan philosophy without following a vegan diet. What do you think? Countryboy603 ( talk) 15:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Doesn't the page contradict itself by saying there's such a thing as "environmental veganism"? It states in the intro that a vegan rejects the commodity status of animals. Countryboy603 ( talk) 00:44, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
(from above)
Yes, you can exploit a glass of milk.
exploitation
noun [ U ]
US /ˌek.splɔɪˈteɪ.ʃən/ UK /ˌek.splɔɪˈteɪ.ʃən/
the use of something in order to get an advantage from it:
Britain's exploitation of its natural gas reserves began after the Second World War.
Drinking a glass of milk is using it to get an advantage from it. Countryboy603 ( talk) 00:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Ok, I found some articles showing arguments from both sides of the debate: https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/can-vegans-eat-eggs-from-backyard-hens https://www.livekindly.com/honey-debate-vegan-not-vegan/ Can I re-add that now? Countryboy603 ( talk) 21:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
Would the photos fit better on Animal welfare, since vegans object to farming as a whole, not just factory farming? Countryboy603 ( talk) 15:07, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Countryboy, thanks for your edits on Veganism. Just a little feedback from my side. I think some of the edits are too obsessed with details on ethical questions that have not and will probably never be definitively answered -- because they are irrelevant (roadkill, dead fish). That is because these are edge cases that most vegans will never come across in their life and that play no role for veganism as a way of life. We have more than enough Autobahns in Austria and Germany and roadkill is really not something that's on the menu here, not even in highway rest stops ;-) Bringing these issues into the article gives a false impression of what veganism is about for most of the people. Questions of roadkill and eating dead fish may be of interest for internet forums and online life but play no role in real life. CarlFromVienna ( talk) 07:09, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Ok, but should we add a section for how vegans disagree about whether bivalves are suitable for vegans? Countryboy603 ( talk) 04:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Dead link. Change the link from: Animal products > General > Logos > "Vegan Society sunflower"
You can change it to https://www.vegansociety.com//sites/default/files/uploads/VeganTM-Palette1-PLUM.png which is a working link. Trimoxx ( talk) 19:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
2A00:23C4:D920:4401:2530:DE50:E974:A7E2 ( talk) 17:59, 30 March 2023 (UTC)Hal sparks is no longer a vegan he is a carnivore and likes to eat raw meat now if you look at his recent Facebook posts you will see confirmation of this.
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate.
PianoDan (
talk)
18:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the subtitle "prevalence by country" and "Germany" there is a straightforward error that misquotes the source.
"A government-commissioned survey indicates that as of 2021, 2% of German residents follow a vegan diet, with higher incidence rates among the younger, the less educated (people who ended their formal education with Hauptschule graduation), and residents of former West Germany.[150]"
should be:
"A government-commissioned survey indicates that as of 2021, 2% of German residents follow a vegan diet, with higher incidence rates among the younger, the higher educated, and residents of former West Germany.[150]"
I'd skip the explanation of what higher education constitutes, but if you want to keep it, it could say "(people who ended their formal education with Abitur or a university degree)".
The source is the already linked "Forsa Ernährungsreport 2021", page 13.
Best Sadd26 ( talk) 17:49, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
People in the Indus Valley Civilisation ate many kinds of meat. (cow may be an exception). There are ceramic/potsherds from IVC (Kalibangan) which contains goat sacrifice etched on it. ChandlerMinh ( talk) 17:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the two (2) Logos (white "v" with a leaf on one end inside a green circle within a green box) as well as the related text: "The symbol widely used to denote a vegan-friendly product". This is not the symbol widely used to denote a vegan-friendly product, but a protected trademark which requires a license to use in accordance with the following registration [1]. In addition, this is an incorrect representation of the V-Label. Lswissveg ( talk) 12:28, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
References
![]() | This
edit request to
Veganism has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Veganism by Country: The statement about Germany is wrong. The cited reference 150 specifically states people with higher education are MORE likely to have consumed vegan food, not the one with less education. JJSiegl ( talk) 11:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
There should be an article on 'veganism in culture' by decades, centuries, millennia, continents, nations, communities, types of reference, etc. Celebrities and others are constantly mentioning their veganism or 'forays into veganism', and even criminals have been described(correctly or incorrectly) as vegetarian or vegan (sometimes the imputation or 'references' or citations may be malevolent actions, but significant nonetheless in their impacts and ensuing discussions). For instance, the current #idaho4 real crime murder mystery in Moscow, Idaho, has a 'vegan pizza' reference (suspect ordered 'vegan pizza' twice while purportedly stalking the eventual victims) and several vegans have been victims of violent crime (with their diets mentioned in the news or the obituaries - e.g. NYC vegan Central Park jogger, or current Portland, Oregon victims, etc.
the position expired in december of 2021 and has not been renewed (despite having been renewed in continuance since some time in the 1990s.) i say that should either be nuanced in the text or remove the reference to the AND. link: [ [11]] BigMouthCommie ( talk) 19:12, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
although reference No. 253 is grouped into a single sentence that suggests that a vegan diet is appropriate at any age, the reference explicitly says it is not recommended for children under the age of 2.
i'm of the opinion that this section, at best, was written hastily, with sources which were not well-chosen to support the claims in this section. to that end, i am under the impression that there is a way to tag an article to be scrutinized and have references strengthened. can anyone help me apply that tag? commie ( talk) 15:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
as i continue my way through the article, i found reference No. 251 which says that the australian NHMRC has issued similar language to the AND. when i followed up, that's not true. the referenced source is a press release from a vegan advocacy organization which is spinning the actual NHMRC recommendation and arrives at language which, even with the spin, is short of the claim made by the AND. when the subject of the article is consulted, no language about whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthy is available at all: they only say that consuming non-animal protein sources can help add variety to Australians diets. it is never suggested that they recommend eliminating animal products.
for this reason, i believe this reference should either be updated to a source that actually shows a statement from the NHMRC that supports the language that's in the article, or we should eliminate this reference altogether. having spent some time on the NHMRC site, and myself being unable to find any recommendations for-or-against vegetarian or vegan diets, it is my preference to remove this reference and language altogether. commie ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I am suggesting that the phrase "particularly in diet" in the opening paragraph be removed.
It is common to refer to veganism as just a diet, a special form of vegetarianism. The definition of "vegetarianism" itself depends on the region or context, since it may mean lacto-ovo vegetarianism in Western countries whil it means lacto-vegetarianism in India. And it could even be an exact synonym with "vegan" when qualified with the word "pure".
According to the Vegan Society's official definition of "veganism"
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
— The Vegan Society
This suggests that "veganism" is not centered on diet or the stated health benefits of excluding animal products in one's diet, but on the conscious exclusion of animal exploitation. The word "vegan" can apply to other products such as clothing, cosmetics, and shopping, while the word "vegetarianism" specifically refers to food and diet; we hear about "vegan leather boots" but it would be weird to say "vegetarian leather boots".
--MULLIGANACEOUS-- ( talk) 22:38, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
It's been flagged as not scholarly but unless someone can quickly support the claims made in the documentary using up-to-date, reliable information, it really should just be removed. This section in particular reads like a PSA for veganism and is not very informative.
To a lesser extent, this is true for the following section where healthcare costs are estimated. The study estimates cost savings across multiple diets, giving a range for each group. What made it to Wikipedia is a few numbers, apparently crunched by whoever edited the section, without any context or explanation of how they made these calculations. The study actually estimates much higher savings for switching to a vegan diet, albeit lower than it would be if the entire U.S. were vegetarian. Without the overall context of the study, though, these excerpts are trivial and possibly misleading.
An article like this really should not be locked until it's cleaned up, at least to the point that it's not spreading misinformation. That defeats the purpose of locking. 2603:7081:1603:A300:5D2A:5E39:2A96:6A62 ( talk) 23:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Alison Homewood of The New Internationalist argued that the 2014 documentary film, Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret, was influential in causing some social media users on Facebook and Vimeo to become vegans. [1]
I suggest we split this into two pages - "Veganism" and "Vegan diet". Countryboy603 ( talk) 18:33, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
References
in the History section it states that "In the sixth century, St. David is reported to have lived on a vegan diet." I checked out the reference for this and in the very next line to that quoted it says that he drank milk. So the reference does not state that he was Vegan as implied in this article, just that he was vegetarian. I will remove the sentence from this article. Bodrugan ( talk) 08:39, 9 November 2023 (UTC)