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![]() | This page was proposed for deletion by Faizhaider ( talk · contribs) on 7 July 2020. |
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I see two problems with this new page. First of all its title: "Urdudaan" looks quite like a non-existent term in English-language scholarly literature. Google scholar only yields two hits [1], and both are actually mentions of the blogger Urdudaan. Second, Urdu-speakers do not from an ethnolinguistic group. An ethnolinguistic group is an ethnic group whose members primarily self-identify with the group based on the language they speak. Do Urdu-speakers form a coherent ethnic group? As far as I know, and as this article states, they make up quite diverse communities within India and Pakistan.
Apart from these issues, it may well be useful to have an umbrella article about Urdu-speaking communites, as long as it does not for the most part simply duplicate information from the page Urdu. FWIW, we also don't have articles about Hindi-speaking people (a redirect) or Mandarin-speaking people.
@ Fowler&fowler, Taimoorahmed11, Foreverknowledge, Kautilya3, and Uanfala: your thoughts about it? – Austronesier ( talk) 09:13, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
With good faith, I think this article is about group of urdu speaking people, still not strong but a considerable title for the proposed materials To Faiz, there is no such word in hindi for hindi speaking as far as I know, so no question of creating an article, with love if you have any particular word, you are welcome to create an article on it Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Contested the prod with good faith Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:18, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Faizhaider: I am not at all interested, dear Faiz now in this article, you can edit as you want, keeping my step back, sorry to disturb you, I will not interfere in any of your work, again sorry dear faiz Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Faizhaider: ধন্যবাদ Majun e Baqi ( talk) 17:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I have put article for WP:Afd here [2].-- Fz t c s 16:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
None of the terms above is much familiar in English but as to article it refers Urdudaan to native Urdu speakers which I think is not entirely correct. Daan is Persian word which means knower, colloquially Urdudaan is used to denote a person expert in Urdu not just a knower. Similarly Sciencedaan(Scientist) is said to a person who is expert in science not just a knower. Like this article [3] about Patras Bokhari who taught English but was an Urdu writer says that "Angrezi ka naamwar Urdudaan (English's famous Urdudaan). As to Urduwan and Urduban, these are remotely used terms to denote Urdu speakers, 'wan or ban' in Persian means speaker. Like Persian speakers are referred to as Farsiwans or Farsibans and Hindko speakers are referred to as Hindkowans. So this article's content needs to be rewritten. USaamo ( t@lk) 21:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
This page was vandalised by someone so needed a page protection 203.192.225.77 ( talk) 09:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Austronesier: I think you can understand meatpuppetry, and needs no further explanation, It is clear from Afd page what you like to do and what unfala is doing, kindly do not try to teach me I understand wikipedia very well, you need to learn that it is not allowed to remove other's comments on talk pages 203.192.225.77 ( talk) 10:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
As I explained earlier once, Urdu-speaking in the sense of the Muslims of "Urdu-dan," is a historical term. It does not apply to people who in the 2021 census of India will merely state they are "Urdu-speakers" as a mark of cultural distinction and pride but a large number of whom are unable to speak Urdu with the felicity of their ancestors before independence. (Maybe the women in rural areas might still as they are secluded somewhat and thus more impervious to the winds of Hindu-majoritarian change that have been blowing in India for nearly 70 years. I mean, they were blowing long before the Hindu nationalists came into power. But that would require major sociological and anthropological work.) What is clear is that the level of functional Urdu-literacy among all ages from elementary school onward in Pakistan is of an order of magnitude higher than in India.
As I've stated before, this disparity becomes obvious in the rare instances of Indian Urdu poets such as Javed Akhtar reciting in Urdu poetry festivals in Pakistan. At the Pakistani festivals, their demeanor changes; the level and choice of poetry they recite changes, becoming more adult and showing more depth; the gender ratios of their audience change, with many more mature women attending, not just young men with no knowledge of Urdu, only a sense that it is "cool."
What is also clear is that most "native" Urdu speakers in India (i.e. those who report being so in the ten-yearly census) will be unable to understand most Urdu-language news in Pakistan in any comprehensive fashion. But the Pakistani's will have no issue understanding the occasional special Urdu programs in India. As I've shown somewhere else, only 5% of comments in the BBC Urdu program come from India. The British program managers said that it speaks to the growing inability in India to be able to write (let alone to analyze and communicate with nuance) in Urdu.
In other words, it is nonsensical to claim very early on in the lead that "Urdu-speaking" means (the dubious) "native" speakers and they are in India. It is nothing but a hollow boast. Pinging only @ Austronesier: and @ Foreverknowledge: and looking forward to some wisdom from them. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Meno267, please obtain WP:CONSENSUS for your changes here. Note that this page is about the native speakers of Urdu only. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:32, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Urdu-speaking people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Dawn":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
The Urdu language has a wide and diverse group of fluent speakers, just like Hindi. This article complicates things instead of being useful, as there is no ethnic or ethnolingusitic group of Urdu-speakers as they are wide spread diverse group of people with various ethnic and regional identities. I suggest the merger of this article into the
Urdu article, its situation is exactly like Hindi's, whose speakers do not form an ethnic or regional identity as other neighbouring regions.
PeoplesRepublicOfChina01 (
talk)
12:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 7 July 2020. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This page was proposed for deletion by Faizhaider ( talk · contribs) on 7 July 2020. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I see two problems with this new page. First of all its title: "Urdudaan" looks quite like a non-existent term in English-language scholarly literature. Google scholar only yields two hits [1], and both are actually mentions of the blogger Urdudaan. Second, Urdu-speakers do not from an ethnolinguistic group. An ethnolinguistic group is an ethnic group whose members primarily self-identify with the group based on the language they speak. Do Urdu-speakers form a coherent ethnic group? As far as I know, and as this article states, they make up quite diverse communities within India and Pakistan.
Apart from these issues, it may well be useful to have an umbrella article about Urdu-speaking communites, as long as it does not for the most part simply duplicate information from the page Urdu. FWIW, we also don't have articles about Hindi-speaking people (a redirect) or Mandarin-speaking people.
@ Fowler&fowler, Taimoorahmed11, Foreverknowledge, Kautilya3, and Uanfala: your thoughts about it? – Austronesier ( talk) 09:13, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
With good faith, I think this article is about group of urdu speaking people, still not strong but a considerable title for the proposed materials To Faiz, there is no such word in hindi for hindi speaking as far as I know, so no question of creating an article, with love if you have any particular word, you are welcome to create an article on it Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Contested the prod with good faith Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:18, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Faizhaider: I am not at all interested, dear Faiz now in this article, you can edit as you want, keeping my step back, sorry to disturb you, I will not interfere in any of your work, again sorry dear faiz Majun e Baqi ( talk) 16:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Faizhaider: ধন্যবাদ Majun e Baqi ( talk) 17:43, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
I have put article for WP:Afd here [2].-- Fz t c s 16:28, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
None of the terms above is much familiar in English but as to article it refers Urdudaan to native Urdu speakers which I think is not entirely correct. Daan is Persian word which means knower, colloquially Urdudaan is used to denote a person expert in Urdu not just a knower. Similarly Sciencedaan(Scientist) is said to a person who is expert in science not just a knower. Like this article [3] about Patras Bokhari who taught English but was an Urdu writer says that "Angrezi ka naamwar Urdudaan (English's famous Urdudaan). As to Urduwan and Urduban, these are remotely used terms to denote Urdu speakers, 'wan or ban' in Persian means speaker. Like Persian speakers are referred to as Farsiwans or Farsibans and Hindko speakers are referred to as Hindkowans. So this article's content needs to be rewritten. USaamo ( t@lk) 21:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
This page was vandalised by someone so needed a page protection 203.192.225.77 ( talk) 09:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Austronesier: I think you can understand meatpuppetry, and needs no further explanation, It is clear from Afd page what you like to do and what unfala is doing, kindly do not try to teach me I understand wikipedia very well, you need to learn that it is not allowed to remove other's comments on talk pages 203.192.225.77 ( talk) 10:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
As I explained earlier once, Urdu-speaking in the sense of the Muslims of "Urdu-dan," is a historical term. It does not apply to people who in the 2021 census of India will merely state they are "Urdu-speakers" as a mark of cultural distinction and pride but a large number of whom are unable to speak Urdu with the felicity of their ancestors before independence. (Maybe the women in rural areas might still as they are secluded somewhat and thus more impervious to the winds of Hindu-majoritarian change that have been blowing in India for nearly 70 years. I mean, they were blowing long before the Hindu nationalists came into power. But that would require major sociological and anthropological work.) What is clear is that the level of functional Urdu-literacy among all ages from elementary school onward in Pakistan is of an order of magnitude higher than in India.
As I've stated before, this disparity becomes obvious in the rare instances of Indian Urdu poets such as Javed Akhtar reciting in Urdu poetry festivals in Pakistan. At the Pakistani festivals, their demeanor changes; the level and choice of poetry they recite changes, becoming more adult and showing more depth; the gender ratios of their audience change, with many more mature women attending, not just young men with no knowledge of Urdu, only a sense that it is "cool."
What is also clear is that most "native" Urdu speakers in India (i.e. those who report being so in the ten-yearly census) will be unable to understand most Urdu-language news in Pakistan in any comprehensive fashion. But the Pakistani's will have no issue understanding the occasional special Urdu programs in India. As I've shown somewhere else, only 5% of comments in the BBC Urdu program come from India. The British program managers said that it speaks to the growing inability in India to be able to write (let alone to analyze and communicate with nuance) in Urdu.
In other words, it is nonsensical to claim very early on in the lead that "Urdu-speaking" means (the dubious) "native" speakers and they are in India. It is nothing but a hollow boast. Pinging only @ Austronesier: and @ Foreverknowledge: and looking forward to some wisdom from them. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Meno267, please obtain WP:CONSENSUS for your changes here. Note that this page is about the native speakers of Urdu only. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:32, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Urdu-speaking people's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Dawn":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
The Urdu language has a wide and diverse group of fluent speakers, just like Hindi. This article complicates things instead of being useful, as there is no ethnic or ethnolingusitic group of Urdu-speakers as they are wide spread diverse group of people with various ethnic and regional identities. I suggest the merger of this article into the
Urdu article, its situation is exactly like Hindi's, whose speakers do not form an ethnic or regional identity as other neighbouring regions.
PeoplesRepublicOfChina01 (
talk)
12:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)