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Collapsing meandering discussion not really related to improving the article. Superseded by ChefBear01’s proposal below related to “union state”
DeCausa (
talk)
19:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
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I think the U.K would qualify as a confederation as there is a system of shared powers within the U.K The U.K has three "federal" branches Federal Government U.K Parliament U.K Government U.K Supreme Court U.K. Law (Reserved competences and shared competences such as tax) (They can technically legislate in any areas but there is a convention that the U.K. government won’t legislate in devolved competences) And has three National branches or / and regional branches for the different constituent counties of the U.K. (Devolved competences, shared competences such as tax) Devolved Parliament Devolved Executive Devolved Courts Devolved Laws ChefBear01 ( talk) 20:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The UK is divided into four territories each with its own set of powers and the U.K. Supreme Court that interprets the law independently from government and parliament. ChefBear01 ( talk) 18:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I put forward a genuine change that I think is right and provided sources to support it. ChefBear01 ( talk) 15:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
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unitary
The UK is a “union state” of four countries, with each having a form of self governance.
I think you might be right in that looking at the academic literature in the last 10 years, or certainly the last 5 years, does seem to have changed/is changing. There seems to be a consistent tendency to say that the UK should no longer straightforwardly be described as a unitary state - although there isn’t a consensus on how it should be alternatively described. Union state does come up quite a bit, however. DeCausa ( talk) 07:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Note (again) England has no devolved government, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland have devolved governments. All of which, is by the will of the UK Parliament. GoodDay ( talk) 14:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I've done a bit of digging on this, and have literally found dozens of citations (constitutional law and political science academics) saying that the UK is no longer considered a traditional unitary state with most applying "union state" as the new description. I've given a smattering (18 citations) in the collapsed list below. It's definitely not WP:FRINGE and I would say that it's now possibly even the mainstream, with some of the most prominent academics in the field such as Vernon Bogdanor having advocated it.
The context was that it was a theory developed by a couple of Norwegians (Rokkan and Urwin 1983). This source gives a survey of it's development "Up until the 1970s, it had been common to conceptualise the UK as a unitary state. However, Rokkan and Urwin's specification of the UK as a case of a union state rather than a unitary state has been influential" Another says " Although the UK was a 'union-state' (Rokkan and Urwin 1983) the popular political conception of Britain as nothing less than a unitary state would not become openly challenged until the dawn of legislative devolution" and another even says “Until recently, the UK was seen as a unitary state but a new orthodoxy has emerged. Amongst others, the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution described the UK as a union state rather than a unitary state in outlining the basic tenets of the constitution." So, it's the new orthodoxy. I therefore propose the following footnote to the word “unitary” in the infobox:
Although the United Kingdom has traditionally been seen as a unitary state, an alternative description of the UK as a “union state” has become influential and has been put forward by, amongst others, Vernon Bogdanor. [1] A union state is considered to differ from a unitary state in that while it maintains a central authority it also recognises the authority of historic rights and infrastructures of its component parts. [2] [3]
References
I think the second sentence is necessary because we don’t yet have an article on the concept to link to - a gap for someone to fill! - so an explanation is needed.
Example “Union state”replacing “unitary state” citations
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Comments please? DeCausa ( talk) 20:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The world is split basically into Unitary states and Federal states as Unitary State makes clear. It is very clear that the UK remains a unitary state, rather than a federal state. That is a fundamental and clear distinction. These are widely accepted and recognised terms, as reflected by the fact there is a whole article on it. I still do not see the justification for the use of a footnote with a flawed and ill-defined invented term such as "union state" to be added. It gives undue and unnecessary weight to a fringe term barely used, even if some believe the UK is moving towards being less of a unitary state than others. This risks moving to original research and also attempting to predict the future of what the UK may be moving towards. What even is a "Union State"? This seems to be an attempt to undermine the fact the UK is a sovereign state and country. I still see no reason at all to add another footnote. The current wording in the article says the "The United Kingdom is a unitary parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy." This is factually accurate and clear. The UK parliament is sovereign. Every action carried out by a devolved administration is using a power the UK parliament has chosen to devolve to it, and is free to revoke or overrule at any moment with a simple Act of Parliament. This is an important distinction, and its one of the reasons the UK is a unitary state, not a federal state or confederacy as someone was attempting to advocate earlier. RWB2020 ( talk) 08:03, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Props to
DeCausa for finding additional sources. I was a little hesitant about changes above as the 3 sources initially put forward seemed to be strong but I was unsure about the relative weight of the term. I think the extra sources help make the situation clearer. I support a footnote in the infobox as DeCausa suggests, as I too think we should be cautious about replacing "unitary" with "union state" as things stand – particularly as some of the sources aren't unequivocal about the term's accuracy. For example, Mitchell calls it "a new orthodoxy" (as quoted above) but says in the next sentence "this new orthodoxy now needs to be challenged"
.
I suggest a slightly modified version of DeCausa's proposal: Although the United Kingdom has traditionally been seen as a unitary state, an alternative description of the UK as a “union state”, put forward by, amongst others,
Vernon Bogdanor,
[1] has become increasingly influential since the adoption of devolution in the 1990s.
[2] A union state is considered to differ from a unitary state in that while it maintains a central authority it also recognises the authority of historic rights and infrastructures of its component parts.
[3]
[4]
Jr8825 •
Talk
11:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
References
Forgive me folks, if I'm loosing my cool. @ ChefBear01: 'again', I had to fix your signing of your posts. Please stop putting a gap between your post & name & stop out-denting your name. At this point, either you're unable or unwilling to sign them correctly. Which is it? GoodDay ( talk) 16:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
The lead says, "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.[22] Their capitals are London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively. Other than England, the constituent countries have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers."
While there are sources for the capitals of the devolved countries, there are none that say London is the capital of England. I suggest that we find a source or delete this.
London of course was the capital of England and became the capital of England and Wales, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. But since England no longer exists as a political unit and does not have a devolved government, it makes no sense to say it has a capital. There was for example no capital of Wales until 1955, when the government selected Cardiff.
TFD ( talk) 23:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
I suggest the following re-wording: "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers, with capitals at Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively." TFD ( talk) 19:26, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
I suppose if capital refer to the seat of government, then there is no capital of England as there is no government of England, just the government of the United Kingdom, therefore, it would not make sense to refer to it as such. Lolitart ( talk) 11:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm going to explain my reasoning for my edit here per WP:BRD. As far as I can tell, besides this article and the one for the United States (which I edited similar to this one), country names are listed in articles with the common name or names first and the official name second. I figure that considering this article and the one on the United States are outliers, it would make more sense to edit both to be in line with the order other countries have (and beginning the article with the WP:COMMONNAME). If there is a reason the official name is given before the common name in this instance and not for any other country (and I could list one per continent to prove this point), please let me know, because a cursory glance at talk page archives did not settle it for me. Paragon Deku ( talk) 22:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I would add that where it says the United Kingdom is a country this is wrong for the UK is a union of countries not a country, the UK is a sovereign state consisting of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a very big difference because these words have meaning country vs state! Wrong terminology is misinformation and we should all endeavour to be as specific as possible especially on an educational platform/encyclopedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.4.35 ( talk) 16:28, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
I propose that sovereign country is replaced with sovereign state. I believe this is far more accurate. The reason I believe this is more accurate is because United Kingdom is a union of countries but it is also a sovereign State, unlike England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which are countries but not sovereign States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8D21:7600:8C6E:2E8D:E38B:7DEB ( talk) 20:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Sionist meaning 82.132.244.225 ( talk) 14:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Quite a few of @ Umbreus:' edits have been reverted on this article. He's made no attempts to discuss his additions 'here' or on his own talkpage. Indeed, he's never communicated with anybody on Wikipedia, since he showed up in October 2018. Seeing as this article has been his latest interest, I think it's time he start acknowledging he's not the only person in the room. GoodDay ( talk) 00:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Twice @ FJDEACKB: has attempted to change "country" to "sovereign state" in the article's disambiguation section. I've implemented a compromise, matching the article's intro, via changing "country" to "sovereign country". I hope FJDEACKB will accept that compromise or at least, join this discussion, rather then just 'revert'. GoodDay ( talk) 01:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
"this article is about the country"(in layman's terms, the UK is a country and I think it's perfectly adequate to distinguish it from the geographic island). The original version is my preferred one. Neither do I have issue with FJDEACKB's changed wording
"this article is about the sovereign state", if other editors feel it makes things clearer. However, I'm not keen on the compromise version, "sovereign country". I'd prefer we kept the original wording or accepted FJDEACKB's change, as I think they're both simpler/more familiar than the fudged compromise. There's no need to insert "sovereign" here (unless we're opting for the familiar, frequently used phrase "sovereign state") as it's simply distinguishing the political entity from a geographic one, I think it's better to keep that detail to the actual lead – the only purpose here is to make a distinction, not explain what the UK is precisely. Jr8825 • Talk 04:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
It is always a compromise between ambiguity and readability. Often the more technically accurate you are the less readable something becomes. The purpose of using more ambiguous language is that it is often more readable so in the end makes more sense. Given that sovereign state is not unreadable or complex, and it is infinitely more technically accurate the country, I see no reason why it shouldn’t be used. It is as clear in language and clearer in meaning. (I’m not trying to claim country is wholly wrong, simply too ambiguous, especially for a disambiguation section, in which it is possibly more important to be clear than in the body of the article). FJDEACKB ( talk) 10:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
My recommendation on how to avoid the confusion, isn't going to be adopted. So, do whatever ya'll think is best. GoodDay ( talk) 17:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Would changing it to "kingdom", be acceptable? GoodDay ( talk) 18:03, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
References
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK) is an island country that sits north-west of mainland Europe. It is made up of mainland Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland) and the northern part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland). It has numerous smaller islands.
United Kingdom, island country located off the northwestern coast of mainland Europe. The United Kingdom comprises the whole of the island of Great Britain—which contains England, Wales, and Scotland—as well as the northern portion of the island of Ireland.
Editors of this article might be interested in an RfC taking place at Talk:British nationality law#rfc E6F0D24. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:04, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Interest rate rise for UK needs updating 82.10.136.118 ( talk) 21:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Excluding the first sentence, six lead sentences begin with this phrase, including 5 of the 6 lead paragraphs. Can we think of some alternatives to avoid this unappealing repetition? Jr8825 • Talk 19:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
In paragraph four of the Literature subsection, Iain Banks is referred to as a "psychological horror-comedy" author, while he seems to be most well known for his science fiction. I do not feel informed enough to make the edit, but I think his description should be as a science fiction author not a horror author. Theldir Essiviar ( talk) 09:24, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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The UK is not in Europe they left the European Union The UK is classed as a Country in Britain 92.7.142.83 ( talk) 20:53, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
How can it be claimed that a political union is sovereign, or a country. Why not call it what it is, a temporary financial agreement? 82.47.254.143 ( talk) 05:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Very odd that this page refers to the UKs as a country!? 82.47.254.143 ( talk) 05:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the etymology and terminology section of the article, they describe the "Kingdom of Ireland", as the "kingdom of Ireland" with a lowercase which is a grammatical error, please fix this. ObliviousRetard ( talk) 15:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
i see united kingdom /europe nation (europe uinon) how to make united staes the united kingdom of new contries u south europe as north europe (northwest / northern / southwest / southern... 2A02:9B0:4B:B79C:4107:B1C2:B1DB:73E5 ( talk) 10:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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Change:
"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][19] is a sovereign country in north-western Europe"
To:
"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][19] is a sovereign union of four nations (England, Scotland Wales [Great Britain] and Northern Ireland) in north-western Europe" 2A02:C7E:2C06:C900:F8A0:F0C7:180B:FEB6 ( talk) 23:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
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List Of Sylheti Hip-Hop Band
Mahin 31 ( talk) 10:34, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
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Under the Music header, please change "After moving to London under the reign of Qeen Anne" to "After moving to London under the reign of Queen Anne" 75.134.148.236 ( talk) 01:26, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
"United Kingdom Intersex Association"? What is the relevance? Equinox ◑ 21:21, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
user:DeCausa Hi, you reverted my edit (22:25, 22 December 2021) on the basis of WP:NOTNEWS. However, the news articles in question are analytical in nature, based on government reports, and are not 'first-hand news reports on breaking stories'. The only possible exception may be an article which reports on a government ministers speech. I would like to keep the information on the page so please let me know what you think. RickyBennison ( talk) 14:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
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Balkovec (
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15:06, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
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15:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
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Balkovec (
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15:07, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
The list of post-war composers is tricky, and it's hard to judge notability. Some are DBE/KBE; there are not many women; the four nations are not all represented proportionally. The number of post-war composers has not changed much; Sir Richard Rodney Bennett has been added; and Sir Harrison Birtwhistle died on 18 April. The only women are Judith Weir and Thea Musgrave. user:Moxy should explain why they have tagged post-war composers. Mathsci ( talk) 04:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Lists will always be a problem, as the entries are arbitrary. The two paragraphs for pop music and particular pop artists are also possibly a bit indigestible.
In general Grove is a good source: for post-war classical music, only Peter Maxwell Davies and Harrison Birtwhistle are mentioned by Grove, with specific operas. Music in the United Kingdom has similar unsourced lists, with entries like Julian Anderson; the timeline has gaps. Grove accurately states that, except for G&S comic operas, many classical composers have been regarded as "outsiders", eg Ethel Smyth.
The literature section has omissions for poetry, drama and novels: presumably it has been thought that it's enough to add portraits of Shakespeare and Dickens .
For Europe (where CMD have common editing experience), lists are not useful. On some other wikis, however, they are popular, e.g. fr:Musique française. Chacun à son goût. Mathsci ( talk) 11:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment Not at all. I'm in a differenent timezone, and normally would be asleep. User:Graham87 is an expert on audio files; he changed the ogg file for "Zadok the Priest" to an oga file. The commments here apply to several other editors who have added contentl some of that content had become disjointed (Handel vs Lloyd Weber). I have not understood the very random comments about Winston Churchill, which have no relevance to United Kingdom#Music; nor the assumptions about "era in music". But in general I have looked at the following:
For the US, I'm not sure whether Samuel Barber, Morton Gould, Steve Reich, John Adams and Philip Glass are mentioned. On Grove Online, there are short descriptive sentences describing Tudor Music, the creation of an English rustic tradition in the late 17th century and then a renewal two centuries later with a reurn to folk music and nature, with Elgar, Vaughan Williams, et al; British opera and oratorioshad a renaissance in the 20th century. Mathsci ( talk) 03:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The short paragraph is sourced; it concerns prose content from music in the British Isles, excluding the Republic of Ireland. Those sources can be read and checked; they concern several centuries of music and periods, Tudor, Restoration, Victorian/Edwardian, and modern/contemporary. Particular music forms such as masses, madrigals, anthems and folk songs are mentioned; the BBC's music magazine listing of the 50 top composers worldwide has been used — there are only nine entries for British composers, starting with Thomas Tallis. (None are living, with Birtwistle's recent death.) The paragraph is brief and without nuance: 20th century composers consciously referenced works of previous centuries such as Vaughan Williams ( Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis), Britten ( The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra: Purcell or Gloriana), Maxwell Davies ( Messiah), etc. Italian opera, Haydn's "London Symphonies" or the "London Bach" or Mozart in London are not mentioned. So there does not seem to be any "intricate detail" here. By comparison, France#Music has three expansive paragraphs on classical music with far more detail; it's written in the usual prose way, mentioning particular compositions. Similarly for Austria#Music. For Germany#Music, Handel is counted as being German and Heinrich Schütz doesn't get a mention.
Returning to United Kingdom#Music, there are other paragraphs on conductors/orchestras, film music/musicals, rock/pop genre, pop groups which are mostly in bare list format, sometimes with no sources. The content on classical music 1500–2022 is brief; it is not inaccurate but is too brief. The article Music of the United Kingdom is not well written, as CMD has commented. There are very detailed links to "royal patronage" in Early music of the British Isles#Renaissance c. 1450–c. 1660 (Tudor music) and Baroque music of the British Isles (post-Restoration music). More detailed information is given in Classical music of the United Kingdom#British musical renaissance 1860-1918 (Victorian/Edwardian music). Elsewhere in the latter link, there are just lists. Mathsci ( talk) 11:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The previous discussion showed that 3 editors agreed that Northern Ireland is a province with only one editor diagreeing with semingly no research done by this one editor in Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/Archive 4#NI is a "Province". Kbimbatti22 also agrees that NI is a province as do I. That makes 5:1 in favour of Northern Ireland being a province and therefore I would suggest this is CLEARLY A CONSENSUS. I will amend the page as such. Please discuss before reverting any edits I make.
See further evidence below
According to the International Standards Organisation (ISO) Northern ireland is a province, whilst Wales, Scotland and England are countries. [1]
Northern Ireland is also a province and Wales, England and Scotland are countries according to a current version of the UK GOV website. [2]
Northern Ireland also referred to as province by author on books on Northern Ireland. [3]
Thanks for your time. Titus Gold ( talk) 00:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 |
Collapsing meandering discussion not really related to improving the article. Superseded by ChefBear01’s proposal below related to “union state”
DeCausa (
talk)
19:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
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I think the U.K would qualify as a confederation as there is a system of shared powers within the U.K The U.K has three "federal" branches Federal Government U.K Parliament U.K Government U.K Supreme Court U.K. Law (Reserved competences and shared competences such as tax) (They can technically legislate in any areas but there is a convention that the U.K. government won’t legislate in devolved competences) And has three National branches or / and regional branches for the different constituent counties of the U.K. (Devolved competences, shared competences such as tax) Devolved Parliament Devolved Executive Devolved Courts Devolved Laws ChefBear01 ( talk) 20:29, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The UK is divided into four territories each with its own set of powers and the U.K. Supreme Court that interprets the law independently from government and parliament. ChefBear01 ( talk) 18:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I put forward a genuine change that I think is right and provided sources to support it. ChefBear01 ( talk) 15:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
|
unitary
The UK is a “union state” of four countries, with each having a form of self governance.
I think you might be right in that looking at the academic literature in the last 10 years, or certainly the last 5 years, does seem to have changed/is changing. There seems to be a consistent tendency to say that the UK should no longer straightforwardly be described as a unitary state - although there isn’t a consensus on how it should be alternatively described. Union state does come up quite a bit, however. DeCausa ( talk) 07:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Note (again) England has no devolved government, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland have devolved governments. All of which, is by the will of the UK Parliament. GoodDay ( talk) 14:15, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I've done a bit of digging on this, and have literally found dozens of citations (constitutional law and political science academics) saying that the UK is no longer considered a traditional unitary state with most applying "union state" as the new description. I've given a smattering (18 citations) in the collapsed list below. It's definitely not WP:FRINGE and I would say that it's now possibly even the mainstream, with some of the most prominent academics in the field such as Vernon Bogdanor having advocated it.
The context was that it was a theory developed by a couple of Norwegians (Rokkan and Urwin 1983). This source gives a survey of it's development "Up until the 1970s, it had been common to conceptualise the UK as a unitary state. However, Rokkan and Urwin's specification of the UK as a case of a union state rather than a unitary state has been influential" Another says " Although the UK was a 'union-state' (Rokkan and Urwin 1983) the popular political conception of Britain as nothing less than a unitary state would not become openly challenged until the dawn of legislative devolution" and another even says “Until recently, the UK was seen as a unitary state but a new orthodoxy has emerged. Amongst others, the House of Lords Select Committee on the Constitution described the UK as a union state rather than a unitary state in outlining the basic tenets of the constitution." So, it's the new orthodoxy. I therefore propose the following footnote to the word “unitary” in the infobox:
Although the United Kingdom has traditionally been seen as a unitary state, an alternative description of the UK as a “union state” has become influential and has been put forward by, amongst others, Vernon Bogdanor. [1] A union state is considered to differ from a unitary state in that while it maintains a central authority it also recognises the authority of historic rights and infrastructures of its component parts. [2] [3]
References
I think the second sentence is necessary because we don’t yet have an article on the concept to link to - a gap for someone to fill! - so an explanation is needed.
Example “Union state”replacing “unitary state” citations
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Comments please? DeCausa ( talk) 20:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The world is split basically into Unitary states and Federal states as Unitary State makes clear. It is very clear that the UK remains a unitary state, rather than a federal state. That is a fundamental and clear distinction. These are widely accepted and recognised terms, as reflected by the fact there is a whole article on it. I still do not see the justification for the use of a footnote with a flawed and ill-defined invented term such as "union state" to be added. It gives undue and unnecessary weight to a fringe term barely used, even if some believe the UK is moving towards being less of a unitary state than others. This risks moving to original research and also attempting to predict the future of what the UK may be moving towards. What even is a "Union State"? This seems to be an attempt to undermine the fact the UK is a sovereign state and country. I still see no reason at all to add another footnote. The current wording in the article says the "The United Kingdom is a unitary parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy." This is factually accurate and clear. The UK parliament is sovereign. Every action carried out by a devolved administration is using a power the UK parliament has chosen to devolve to it, and is free to revoke or overrule at any moment with a simple Act of Parliament. This is an important distinction, and its one of the reasons the UK is a unitary state, not a federal state or confederacy as someone was attempting to advocate earlier. RWB2020 ( talk) 08:03, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Props to
DeCausa for finding additional sources. I was a little hesitant about changes above as the 3 sources initially put forward seemed to be strong but I was unsure about the relative weight of the term. I think the extra sources help make the situation clearer. I support a footnote in the infobox as DeCausa suggests, as I too think we should be cautious about replacing "unitary" with "union state" as things stand – particularly as some of the sources aren't unequivocal about the term's accuracy. For example, Mitchell calls it "a new orthodoxy" (as quoted above) but says in the next sentence "this new orthodoxy now needs to be challenged"
.
I suggest a slightly modified version of DeCausa's proposal: Although the United Kingdom has traditionally been seen as a unitary state, an alternative description of the UK as a “union state”, put forward by, amongst others,
Vernon Bogdanor,
[1] has become increasingly influential since the adoption of devolution in the 1990s.
[2] A union state is considered to differ from a unitary state in that while it maintains a central authority it also recognises the authority of historic rights and infrastructures of its component parts.
[3]
[4]
Jr8825 •
Talk
11:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
References
Forgive me folks, if I'm loosing my cool. @ ChefBear01: 'again', I had to fix your signing of your posts. Please stop putting a gap between your post & name & stop out-denting your name. At this point, either you're unable or unwilling to sign them correctly. Which is it? GoodDay ( talk) 16:54, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
The lead says, "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.[22] Their capitals are London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively. Other than England, the constituent countries have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers."
While there are sources for the capitals of the devolved countries, there are none that say London is the capital of England. I suggest that we find a source or delete this.
London of course was the capital of England and became the capital of England and Wales, Great Britain and the United Kingdom. But since England no longer exists as a political unit and does not have a devolved government, it makes no sense to say it has a capital. There was for example no capital of Wales until 1955, when the government selected Cardiff.
TFD ( talk) 23:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
I suggest the following re-wording: "The United Kingdom consists of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own devolved governments, each with varying powers, with capitals at Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, respectively." TFD ( talk) 19:26, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
I suppose if capital refer to the seat of government, then there is no capital of England as there is no government of England, just the government of the United Kingdom, therefore, it would not make sense to refer to it as such. Lolitart ( talk) 11:25, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm going to explain my reasoning for my edit here per WP:BRD. As far as I can tell, besides this article and the one for the United States (which I edited similar to this one), country names are listed in articles with the common name or names first and the official name second. I figure that considering this article and the one on the United States are outliers, it would make more sense to edit both to be in line with the order other countries have (and beginning the article with the WP:COMMONNAME). If there is a reason the official name is given before the common name in this instance and not for any other country (and I could list one per continent to prove this point), please let me know, because a cursory glance at talk page archives did not settle it for me. Paragon Deku ( talk) 22:19, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
I would add that where it says the United Kingdom is a country this is wrong for the UK is a union of countries not a country, the UK is a sovereign state consisting of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a very big difference because these words have meaning country vs state! Wrong terminology is misinformation and we should all endeavour to be as specific as possible especially on an educational platform/encyclopedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.4.35 ( talk) 16:28, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
I propose that sovereign country is replaced with sovereign state. I believe this is far more accurate. The reason I believe this is more accurate is because United Kingdom is a union of countries but it is also a sovereign State, unlike England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which are countries but not sovereign States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:8D21:7600:8C6E:2E8D:E38B:7DEB ( talk) 20:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
Sionist meaning 82.132.244.225 ( talk) 14:10, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Quite a few of @ Umbreus:' edits have been reverted on this article. He's made no attempts to discuss his additions 'here' or on his own talkpage. Indeed, he's never communicated with anybody on Wikipedia, since he showed up in October 2018. Seeing as this article has been his latest interest, I think it's time he start acknowledging he's not the only person in the room. GoodDay ( talk) 00:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Twice @ FJDEACKB: has attempted to change "country" to "sovereign state" in the article's disambiguation section. I've implemented a compromise, matching the article's intro, via changing "country" to "sovereign country". I hope FJDEACKB will accept that compromise or at least, join this discussion, rather then just 'revert'. GoodDay ( talk) 01:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
"this article is about the country"(in layman's terms, the UK is a country and I think it's perfectly adequate to distinguish it from the geographic island). The original version is my preferred one. Neither do I have issue with FJDEACKB's changed wording
"this article is about the sovereign state", if other editors feel it makes things clearer. However, I'm not keen on the compromise version, "sovereign country". I'd prefer we kept the original wording or accepted FJDEACKB's change, as I think they're both simpler/more familiar than the fudged compromise. There's no need to insert "sovereign" here (unless we're opting for the familiar, frequently used phrase "sovereign state") as it's simply distinguishing the political entity from a geographic one, I think it's better to keep that detail to the actual lead – the only purpose here is to make a distinction, not explain what the UK is precisely. Jr8825 • Talk 04:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
It is always a compromise between ambiguity and readability. Often the more technically accurate you are the less readable something becomes. The purpose of using more ambiguous language is that it is often more readable so in the end makes more sense. Given that sovereign state is not unreadable or complex, and it is infinitely more technically accurate the country, I see no reason why it shouldn’t be used. It is as clear in language and clearer in meaning. (I’m not trying to claim country is wholly wrong, simply too ambiguous, especially for a disambiguation section, in which it is possibly more important to be clear than in the body of the article). FJDEACKB ( talk) 10:53, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
My recommendation on how to avoid the confusion, isn't going to be adopted. So, do whatever ya'll think is best. GoodDay ( talk) 17:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Would changing it to "kingdom", be acceptable? GoodDay ( talk) 18:03, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
References
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UK) is an island country that sits north-west of mainland Europe. It is made up of mainland Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland) and the northern part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland). It has numerous smaller islands.
United Kingdom, island country located off the northwestern coast of mainland Europe. The United Kingdom comprises the whole of the island of Great Britain—which contains England, Wales, and Scotland—as well as the northern portion of the island of Ireland.
Editors of this article might be interested in an RfC taking place at Talk:British nationality law#rfc E6F0D24. Cordless Larry ( talk) 09:04, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Interest rate rise for UK needs updating 82.10.136.118 ( talk) 21:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Excluding the first sentence, six lead sentences begin with this phrase, including 5 of the 6 lead paragraphs. Can we think of some alternatives to avoid this unappealing repetition? Jr8825 • Talk 19:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
In paragraph four of the Literature subsection, Iain Banks is referred to as a "psychological horror-comedy" author, while he seems to be most well known for his science fiction. I do not feel informed enough to make the edit, but I think his description should be as a science fiction author not a horror author. Theldir Essiviar ( talk) 09:24, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
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The UK is not in Europe they left the European Union The UK is classed as a Country in Britain 92.7.142.83 ( talk) 20:53, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
How can it be claimed that a political union is sovereign, or a country. Why not call it what it is, a temporary financial agreement? 82.47.254.143 ( talk) 05:32, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
Very odd that this page refers to the UKs as a country!? 82.47.254.143 ( talk) 05:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
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In the etymology and terminology section of the article, they describe the "Kingdom of Ireland", as the "kingdom of Ireland" with a lowercase which is a grammatical error, please fix this. ObliviousRetard ( talk) 15:17, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
i see united kingdom /europe nation (europe uinon) how to make united staes the united kingdom of new contries u south europe as north europe (northwest / northern / southwest / southern... 2A02:9B0:4B:B79C:4107:B1C2:B1DB:73E5 ( talk) 10:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
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Change:
"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][19] is a sovereign country in north-western Europe"
To:
"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK) or Britain,[note 1][19] is a sovereign union of four nations (England, Scotland Wales [Great Britain] and Northern Ireland) in north-western Europe" 2A02:C7E:2C06:C900:F8A0:F0C7:180B:FEB6 ( talk) 23:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
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List Of Sylheti Hip-Hop Band
Mahin 31 ( talk) 10:34, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
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Under the Music header, please change "After moving to London under the reign of Qeen Anne" to "After moving to London under the reign of Queen Anne" 75.134.148.236 ( talk) 01:26, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
"United Kingdom Intersex Association"? What is the relevance? Equinox ◑ 21:21, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
user:DeCausa Hi, you reverted my edit (22:25, 22 December 2021) on the basis of WP:NOTNEWS. However, the news articles in question are analytical in nature, based on government reports, and are not 'first-hand news reports on breaking stories'. The only possible exception may be an article which reports on a government ministers speech. I would like to keep the information on the page so please let me know what you think. RickyBennison ( talk) 14:29, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
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The list of post-war composers is tricky, and it's hard to judge notability. Some are DBE/KBE; there are not many women; the four nations are not all represented proportionally. The number of post-war composers has not changed much; Sir Richard Rodney Bennett has been added; and Sir Harrison Birtwhistle died on 18 April. The only women are Judith Weir and Thea Musgrave. user:Moxy should explain why they have tagged post-war composers. Mathsci ( talk) 04:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Lists will always be a problem, as the entries are arbitrary. The two paragraphs for pop music and particular pop artists are also possibly a bit indigestible.
In general Grove is a good source: for post-war classical music, only Peter Maxwell Davies and Harrison Birtwhistle are mentioned by Grove, with specific operas. Music in the United Kingdom has similar unsourced lists, with entries like Julian Anderson; the timeline has gaps. Grove accurately states that, except for G&S comic operas, many classical composers have been regarded as "outsiders", eg Ethel Smyth.
The literature section has omissions for poetry, drama and novels: presumably it has been thought that it's enough to add portraits of Shakespeare and Dickens .
For Europe (where CMD have common editing experience), lists are not useful. On some other wikis, however, they are popular, e.g. fr:Musique française. Chacun à son goût. Mathsci ( talk) 11:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Comment Not at all. I'm in a differenent timezone, and normally would be asleep. User:Graham87 is an expert on audio files; he changed the ogg file for "Zadok the Priest" to an oga file. The commments here apply to several other editors who have added contentl some of that content had become disjointed (Handel vs Lloyd Weber). I have not understood the very random comments about Winston Churchill, which have no relevance to United Kingdom#Music; nor the assumptions about "era in music". But in general I have looked at the following:
For the US, I'm not sure whether Samuel Barber, Morton Gould, Steve Reich, John Adams and Philip Glass are mentioned. On Grove Online, there are short descriptive sentences describing Tudor Music, the creation of an English rustic tradition in the late 17th century and then a renewal two centuries later with a reurn to folk music and nature, with Elgar, Vaughan Williams, et al; British opera and oratorioshad a renaissance in the 20th century. Mathsci ( talk) 03:37, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
The short paragraph is sourced; it concerns prose content from music in the British Isles, excluding the Republic of Ireland. Those sources can be read and checked; they concern several centuries of music and periods, Tudor, Restoration, Victorian/Edwardian, and modern/contemporary. Particular music forms such as masses, madrigals, anthems and folk songs are mentioned; the BBC's music magazine listing of the 50 top composers worldwide has been used — there are only nine entries for British composers, starting with Thomas Tallis. (None are living, with Birtwistle's recent death.) The paragraph is brief and without nuance: 20th century composers consciously referenced works of previous centuries such as Vaughan Williams ( Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis), Britten ( The Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra: Purcell or Gloriana), Maxwell Davies ( Messiah), etc. Italian opera, Haydn's "London Symphonies" or the "London Bach" or Mozart in London are not mentioned. So there does not seem to be any "intricate detail" here. By comparison, France#Music has three expansive paragraphs on classical music with far more detail; it's written in the usual prose way, mentioning particular compositions. Similarly for Austria#Music. For Germany#Music, Handel is counted as being German and Heinrich Schütz doesn't get a mention.
Returning to United Kingdom#Music, there are other paragraphs on conductors/orchestras, film music/musicals, rock/pop genre, pop groups which are mostly in bare list format, sometimes with no sources. The content on classical music 1500–2022 is brief; it is not inaccurate but is too brief. The article Music of the United Kingdom is not well written, as CMD has commented. There are very detailed links to "royal patronage" in Early music of the British Isles#Renaissance c. 1450–c. 1660 (Tudor music) and Baroque music of the British Isles (post-Restoration music). More detailed information is given in Classical music of the United Kingdom#British musical renaissance 1860-1918 (Victorian/Edwardian music). Elsewhere in the latter link, there are just lists. Mathsci ( talk) 11:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The previous discussion showed that 3 editors agreed that Northern Ireland is a province with only one editor diagreeing with semingly no research done by this one editor in Talk:Countries of the United Kingdom/Archive 4#NI is a "Province". Kbimbatti22 also agrees that NI is a province as do I. That makes 5:1 in favour of Northern Ireland being a province and therefore I would suggest this is CLEARLY A CONSENSUS. I will amend the page as such. Please discuss before reverting any edits I make.
See further evidence below
According to the International Standards Organisation (ISO) Northern ireland is a province, whilst Wales, Scotland and England are countries. [1]
Northern Ireland is also a province and Wales, England and Scotland are countries according to a current version of the UK GOV website. [2]
Northern Ireland also referred to as province by author on books on Northern Ireland. [3]
Thanks for your time. Titus Gold ( talk) 00:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC)