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Use on horseback

On the Tachi page we have this under Use: "According to author Karl F. Friday, before the 13th century there are no written references or drawings etc. that show swords of any kind were actually used while on horseback." Yet, on this page, we have this: "From the Heian to the Muromachi Period, the primary battlefield sword was the tachi. Its long blade and sharp edge made it ideal for use on horseback." Seemed contradictory. 65.175.165.211 ( talk) 04:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC) reply

"The uchigatana was forged in both long and short lengths. Those over 60 centimeters (30 inches) in length were called katana (the length of the longsword varied for each individual according to his height), while any sword two-thirds of the length of the longer uchigatana were called wakizashi"

not correct. uchigatana is the "correct name" of the katana (over 60 cm lenght). wakizashi is wakizashi not a uchigatana. if u ask a uchigatana in Japan they show u a katana (the long sword) not the wakizashi (the short one). -- Drachen 10:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC) reply 

        No Drachen there were two types of uchigatan the first being uchigatana and then katate              uchigatana the single handed version, which was not a wakizashi. The blade length of katate uchigatana at around 23 to 27 inches certainly designated it as a long sword. It was popular among ashigaru gunmen who would sometimes also carry two wakizashi, which the katate uchigatana overtook during the Sengoku.   — Preceding 
unsigned comment added by 
99.38.190.64 (
talk) 19:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
reply

Removed falacius sentence about "uchigatana" meaning "house-sword", I wish people who only know a few words of Japanese would keep their grubbies off of the wikipedia articles. -- Yorinaga 22:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC) reply

"Quick draw on the battlefield"

I'm very interested to learn the source of the claim that "This sword was developed out of the ever-increasing need for speed on the battlefield, where quickly unsheathing one’s sword and cutting down the enemy was a matter of life or death. Its rapid acceptance indicated that battlefield combat had grown in intensity. Since it was shorter, it could be used in more confined quarters, such as inside a building."

I know at least one scholar who says the opposite: That quick draw on the battlefield was not critical at all on the battlefield. I'll wait for the author of that quote to bring out his source first then we can discuss details. Fred26 08:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC) reply

I wonder if perhaps it was merely perceived to be critical, while not actually being so. Common sense leads me to agree with your statement, since one would not wade into foes with a sheathed sword; a quick draw would only be useful if one was attacked in non-combat situations. If you have a source saying that it wasn't critical, I'd say go ahead and delete the statement. -- Edwin Herdman 08:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC) reply
Heh, thought noone was gonna respond :). Lemme see if I can remember where I dug up that particular claim. (been 5 months after all). I'm fairly sure it was brought up by [Donn Draeger] though but I'll check. Fred26 12:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC) reply
Assuming a rapid deployment of the backup weapon (sword, primary weapon being bow or spear) is necessary, which the use of "increasing" assumes, doesn't that beg the question of why the need wasn't so urgent previously? I understand, that may be out of the scope of the article in others' eyes. -- Sctn2labor ( talk) 16:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC) reply


To the user above, tachi were cavalry swords and used from horseback so the edge down design facilitated a quick draw when you ran out of arrows, but only from horseback. As ground troop tactics began to increase in frequency the tachi was becoming a cumbersome weapon (both in length and the fact that drawing on foot required two motions) so the uchigatana was developed.

Image use

The Image on this page is also on the page for the Katana. Are both types of swords in the same picture? If so how are we to decifer which one is which? Darth Marik87 ( talk) 14:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC) reply

Katana is more general in this term. Uchigatana is two Kanji, Uchi and Gatana, the second is the same as Katana, as "刀". The tone change like this is commonly seen because the Japanese language habit of making it less stressed as the second word. MythSearcher talk 19:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC) reply

.

Mounting

For this list, I wonder what mountings were used for uchigatana. Are they always "uchigatana koshirae" or are there other mountings as well. In particular I would like to know what mounting the national treasure uchigatana mounting at Kasuga Taisha is (from 1385, unsigned blade, made by Hishi (菱)). Any suggestions welcome. bamse ( talk) 12:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC) reply

merge

Isnt this sword the same basic think as the katanna? The only difference I see one is a sword on food and the other is on horse. I think this would merge nicely with the katanna article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.14.63 ( talk) 18:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC) reply

References for editors to read

Samuraiantiqueworld ( talk) 22:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC) reply

"Katana" is not specific

I was just going to make the edit, but I didn't want to crowd the summary box. I know that the edit I'm talking about is just on one sentence, but I've seen this misconception elsewhere on the internet, so I wanted to explain myself.

The second sentence of the introductory paragraph says "The uchigatana was the intermediary sword between the tachi and the katana." This is misleading (and simply wrong), suggesting that the katana is a specific type of sword, when it's a category of swords. (In fact, as I'll explain, tachi could be referred to as "katana" in Japanese.) The word for "katana" (刀) literally means "knife", and it typically refers to single edged swords in languages that use Chinese characters (though this isn't very strict). The Japanese also use the Chinese pronunciation ("dāo" in Mandarin, "to" in Japanese) in some sword names (such as "tanto"). As tachi are single-edged, it wouldn't be improper to call them "katana". Either way, the sentence is still erroneous, as even a person who doesn't know Japanese can notice that the name "uchigatana" has the word "katana" in it, making the claim that katana are the descendants of uchigatana questionable at best.

However, the first part (the uchigatana coming after the tachi) is correct, so it'll stay. I'm going to edit out the rest. -- Macfluffers ( talk) 18:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC) reply

    • In modern nihonto terms there is a tachi, uchigatana and katana, all of which can be differentiated from each other by size, location of the mei etc. A katana being worn in the manner of a tachi is still considered to be a katana if the mei is a katana mei. Likewise if a tachi is being worn as a katana but has a tachi mei then it is a tachi. In modern NIHONTO terms there certainly is a specific type of sword called a "KATAKA" which is determined by size and location of the mei. During the Edo period katana size was set by law and even if a tachi was cut down to katana size is still considered to be a tachi if it has a tachi mei. Samuraiantiqueworld ( talk) 22:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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Curvature

Under the "Use" section, there is the following paragraph: "The curvature of the uchigatana blade differs from the tachi in that the blade has curvature near the sword's point (sakizori), as opposed to curvature near the sword's hilt (koshizori) like the tachi. Because the sword is being drawn from below, the act of unsheathing became the act of striking. For a soldier on horseback, the sakizori curve of the uchigatana was essential in such a blade, since it allows the sword to come out of its sheath (saya) at the most convenient angle for executing an immediate cut." The source is Joe Earle's translation of The Japanese Sword by Kanzan Sato. The passage is confusing, because this is the period where samurai are fighting more and more on foot. Tachi was ever the blade for mounted use, and as uchigatana are worn edge up in the obi, not only would that be extremely uncomfortable on horseback, but it would be near impossible to draw it from horseback (good luck with the saya-biki). While mounted, there is only one practical way of drawing a sword from the left hip, and that is with the edge facing downwards - in tachi-koshirae. It must also be hanging freely, and not constrained in any way, because you have very limited use of your hips in the saddle. Kanzan Sato does not himself source his claim, and frankly I'm inclined to delete this paragraph. Tsuka ( talk) 17:00, 7 November 2019 (UTC) reply

Katana and uchigatana

Outside Japan, katana is a sword worn with the blade facing up, which became the mainstream Japanese sword after tachi, but in Japan, it is specifically called uchigatana. The term katana in Japan is a broad term that refers to single-edged swords from all over the world, and it is necessary to pay attention to the confusion in the vocabulary. If you connect to the Japanese version of wikipedia from the English version of katana page, you will find information about the world's single-edged sword, and if you connect to the Japanese version from the English version of uchigatana page, you will find information about katana. Therefore, the description on this page overlaps with that of Katana. This means that on English wikipedia, someone has to delete the uchigatana page.-- SLIMHANNYA ( talk) 15:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC) reply

Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Uchigatana&oldid=1177495733"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Use on horseback

On the Tachi page we have this under Use: "According to author Karl F. Friday, before the 13th century there are no written references or drawings etc. that show swords of any kind were actually used while on horseback." Yet, on this page, we have this: "From the Heian to the Muromachi Period, the primary battlefield sword was the tachi. Its long blade and sharp edge made it ideal for use on horseback." Seemed contradictory. 65.175.165.211 ( talk) 04:36, 20 August 2017 (UTC) reply

"The uchigatana was forged in both long and short lengths. Those over 60 centimeters (30 inches) in length were called katana (the length of the longsword varied for each individual according to his height), while any sword two-thirds of the length of the longer uchigatana were called wakizashi"

not correct. uchigatana is the "correct name" of the katana (over 60 cm lenght). wakizashi is wakizashi not a uchigatana. if u ask a uchigatana in Japan they show u a katana (the long sword) not the wakizashi (the short one). -- Drachen 10:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC) reply 

        No Drachen there were two types of uchigatan the first being uchigatana and then katate              uchigatana the single handed version, which was not a wakizashi. The blade length of katate uchigatana at around 23 to 27 inches certainly designated it as a long sword. It was popular among ashigaru gunmen who would sometimes also carry two wakizashi, which the katate uchigatana overtook during the Sengoku.   — Preceding 
unsigned comment added by 
99.38.190.64 (
talk) 19:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
reply

Removed falacius sentence about "uchigatana" meaning "house-sword", I wish people who only know a few words of Japanese would keep their grubbies off of the wikipedia articles. -- Yorinaga 22:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC) reply

"Quick draw on the battlefield"

I'm very interested to learn the source of the claim that "This sword was developed out of the ever-increasing need for speed on the battlefield, where quickly unsheathing one’s sword and cutting down the enemy was a matter of life or death. Its rapid acceptance indicated that battlefield combat had grown in intensity. Since it was shorter, it could be used in more confined quarters, such as inside a building."

I know at least one scholar who says the opposite: That quick draw on the battlefield was not critical at all on the battlefield. I'll wait for the author of that quote to bring out his source first then we can discuss details. Fred26 08:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC) reply

I wonder if perhaps it was merely perceived to be critical, while not actually being so. Common sense leads me to agree with your statement, since one would not wade into foes with a sheathed sword; a quick draw would only be useful if one was attacked in non-combat situations. If you have a source saying that it wasn't critical, I'd say go ahead and delete the statement. -- Edwin Herdman 08:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC) reply
Heh, thought noone was gonna respond :). Lemme see if I can remember where I dug up that particular claim. (been 5 months after all). I'm fairly sure it was brought up by [Donn Draeger] though but I'll check. Fred26 12:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC) reply
Assuming a rapid deployment of the backup weapon (sword, primary weapon being bow or spear) is necessary, which the use of "increasing" assumes, doesn't that beg the question of why the need wasn't so urgent previously? I understand, that may be out of the scope of the article in others' eyes. -- Sctn2labor ( talk) 16:33, 19 March 2010 (UTC) reply


To the user above, tachi were cavalry swords and used from horseback so the edge down design facilitated a quick draw when you ran out of arrows, but only from horseback. As ground troop tactics began to increase in frequency the tachi was becoming a cumbersome weapon (both in length and the fact that drawing on foot required two motions) so the uchigatana was developed.

Image use

The Image on this page is also on the page for the Katana. Are both types of swords in the same picture? If so how are we to decifer which one is which? Darth Marik87 ( talk) 14:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC) reply

Katana is more general in this term. Uchigatana is two Kanji, Uchi and Gatana, the second is the same as Katana, as "刀". The tone change like this is commonly seen because the Japanese language habit of making it less stressed as the second word. MythSearcher talk 19:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC) reply

.

Mounting

For this list, I wonder what mountings were used for uchigatana. Are they always "uchigatana koshirae" or are there other mountings as well. In particular I would like to know what mounting the national treasure uchigatana mounting at Kasuga Taisha is (from 1385, unsigned blade, made by Hishi (菱)). Any suggestions welcome. bamse ( talk) 12:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC) reply

merge

Isnt this sword the same basic think as the katanna? The only difference I see one is a sword on food and the other is on horse. I think this would merge nicely with the katanna article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.70.14.63 ( talk) 18:25, 27 December 2010 (UTC) reply

References for editors to read

Samuraiantiqueworld ( talk) 22:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC) reply

"Katana" is not specific

I was just going to make the edit, but I didn't want to crowd the summary box. I know that the edit I'm talking about is just on one sentence, but I've seen this misconception elsewhere on the internet, so I wanted to explain myself.

The second sentence of the introductory paragraph says "The uchigatana was the intermediary sword between the tachi and the katana." This is misleading (and simply wrong), suggesting that the katana is a specific type of sword, when it's a category of swords. (In fact, as I'll explain, tachi could be referred to as "katana" in Japanese.) The word for "katana" (刀) literally means "knife", and it typically refers to single edged swords in languages that use Chinese characters (though this isn't very strict). The Japanese also use the Chinese pronunciation ("dāo" in Mandarin, "to" in Japanese) in some sword names (such as "tanto"). As tachi are single-edged, it wouldn't be improper to call them "katana". Either way, the sentence is still erroneous, as even a person who doesn't know Japanese can notice that the name "uchigatana" has the word "katana" in it, making the claim that katana are the descendants of uchigatana questionable at best.

However, the first part (the uchigatana coming after the tachi) is correct, so it'll stay. I'm going to edit out the rest. -- Macfluffers ( talk) 18:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC) reply

    • In modern nihonto terms there is a tachi, uchigatana and katana, all of which can be differentiated from each other by size, location of the mei etc. A katana being worn in the manner of a tachi is still considered to be a katana if the mei is a katana mei. Likewise if a tachi is being worn as a katana but has a tachi mei then it is a tachi. In modern NIHONTO terms there certainly is a specific type of sword called a "KATAKA" which is determined by size and location of the mei. During the Edo period katana size was set by law and even if a tachi was cut down to katana size is still considered to be a tachi if it has a tachi mei. Samuraiantiqueworld ( talk) 22:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC) reply

External links modified (January 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Uchigatana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{ source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:02, 19 January 2018 (UTC) reply

Curvature

Under the "Use" section, there is the following paragraph: "The curvature of the uchigatana blade differs from the tachi in that the blade has curvature near the sword's point (sakizori), as opposed to curvature near the sword's hilt (koshizori) like the tachi. Because the sword is being drawn from below, the act of unsheathing became the act of striking. For a soldier on horseback, the sakizori curve of the uchigatana was essential in such a blade, since it allows the sword to come out of its sheath (saya) at the most convenient angle for executing an immediate cut." The source is Joe Earle's translation of The Japanese Sword by Kanzan Sato. The passage is confusing, because this is the period where samurai are fighting more and more on foot. Tachi was ever the blade for mounted use, and as uchigatana are worn edge up in the obi, not only would that be extremely uncomfortable on horseback, but it would be near impossible to draw it from horseback (good luck with the saya-biki). While mounted, there is only one practical way of drawing a sword from the left hip, and that is with the edge facing downwards - in tachi-koshirae. It must also be hanging freely, and not constrained in any way, because you have very limited use of your hips in the saddle. Kanzan Sato does not himself source his claim, and frankly I'm inclined to delete this paragraph. Tsuka ( talk) 17:00, 7 November 2019 (UTC) reply

Katana and uchigatana

Outside Japan, katana is a sword worn with the blade facing up, which became the mainstream Japanese sword after tachi, but in Japan, it is specifically called uchigatana. The term katana in Japan is a broad term that refers to single-edged swords from all over the world, and it is necessary to pay attention to the confusion in the vocabulary. If you connect to the Japanese version of wikipedia from the English version of katana page, you will find information about the world's single-edged sword, and if you connect to the Japanese version from the English version of uchigatana page, you will find information about katana. Therefore, the description on this page overlaps with that of Katana. This means that on English wikipedia, someone has to delete the uchigatana page.-- SLIMHANNYA ( talk) 15:26, 16 December 2020 (UTC) reply

Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Uchigatana&oldid=1177495733"

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