This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: no consensus due to lack of participation really. Try again in a few months would be my suggestion. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Twentse Landgans →
Twente Landrace goose – Per
WP:COMMONNAME
[1] [Update: Trimmed unnecessary parameters from URL; should resolve error message one user got, below] and
WP:USEENGLISH. The current name is simply "Twente Landrace goose" in Dutch (well, technically the Dutch is a contraction of a longer phrase Twetse Landrasgans; the contractions would literally translate as 'Twente landgoose', but sources do not use such a phrase in English, and the Dutch no longer use a longer version). This move will also be consistent with
Landrace pig,
Dutch Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace pig,
British Landrace pig,
Finnish Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace goat,
Danish Landrace goat,
Dutch Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace sheep,
Danish landrace goose, etc. [That last has a lower-case "l" in "landrace" because it really is a
landrace; all the rest are
standardized breeds with formal names, named after the landraces from which they were developed. WP is presently capitalizing formal breed names as [if]
proper nouns, and this isolated RM is not the place to revisit that decision; this is a consistency and
WP:AT policy compliance move only.] —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 09:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
"We have a[n article about the] Shetland pony, which within the pony world is commonly called a "Shetland", likewise, within the horse world, we have "Mustangs" "Arabians" "Hanoverians" and so on. Outside of the horse world, any rational person will clarify an " Arabian horse" or a " Hanoverian horse" so as to be clear where we are talking about a horse or not."[5] — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Google debugging
|
---|
|
The result of the move request was: Move to Twente goose. After over two weeks, it appears we have consensus for this option. Cúchullain t/ c 20:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Twentse Landgans →
Twente Landrace goose (update: or →
Twente goose, per source provided later) – Per
WP:COMMONNAME
[6] and
WP:USEENGLISH. The current name is simply "Twente Landrace-goose" in Dutch (well, technically the Dutch is a contraction of a longer phrase Twetse Landrasgans; the contraction would literally translate as 'Twente landgoose', but sources do not use such a phrase in English, and the Dutch no longer use a longer version). This move will also be consistent with
Landrace pig,
American Landrace pig,
Dutch Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace pig,
British Landrace pig,
Finnish Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace goat,
Danish Landrace goat,
Dutch Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace sheep,
Danish landrace goose, etc. [That last has a lower-case "l" in "landrace" because it really is a
landrace; all the rest are
standardized breeds with formal names, named after the landraces from which they were developed. WP is presently capitalizing formal breed names as [if]
proper nouns, and this isolated RM is not the place to revisit that decision; this is a consistency and
WP:AT policy compliance move only.] Top search result
[7] is to use of the proposed title as the name of the breed in a breed encyclopedia using the full phrase (though capitalizing it in title case as a heading), published in English by a European rare-breeds preservation society. Here's use in the 2012 book Keeping Geese: Breeds and Management
[8]
[9]
ISBN
978-1847973368 (which doesn't capitalize it for some reason, though this seems to be a typo, as they're consistent about that style otherwise, from a quick look-over). —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
PS:
WP:RECOGNIZABLE is also a factor; English does not have the same grammar as Dutch, so "Twentse" is unlikely to be recognized as a reference to
Twente by English speakers, some of whom may have heard of a kind of goose named for Twente (a probable reason for someone looking for this article, given the breed's obscurity, relative to the placename). —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC). Updated with additional name suggestion, 07:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
*Support seems like a reasonable argument. You also had a good argument against the only opposer last time, not sure why the previous RM was closed rather than just resisted for more comment. see below
InsertCleverPhraseHere
InsertTalkHere 05:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
"The one reliable source ... suggests [details]. I don't agree"? The OR disagreement is a non sequitur anyway: "suggests that this is the same breed as the [other breed]" does not in any way contradict "it's reported as a breed, we should treat it as one", and nothing about this RM has anything to do with whether this is a breed or not; no one here or in the sources proposed that it's something other than a breed, like a wild animal, or whatever it is that Jlan is imagining. Regardless, Jlan isn't in a position to oppose on his theory that the RS (which he concedes is an RS) is wrong.
If Jlan is convinced the breed isn't important, then why is he arguing about this at such length, and why doesn't he just take this stub (which has little hope of ever being expanded) to WP:AFD on WP:N grounds (the sources that it even exists are all tertiary, after all)? If he thinks it can be kept and can be distinguished from another obscure breed, this Grey Back, he's free to write an article on the latter, with sources not OR. Would both survive AfD? I doubt it. Absent a properly sourced article on such a distinction, then WP:TRUTH and WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE apply; it's not WP's job to split hairs (feathers?) about the finest alleged-but-maybe-unsourceable details of breed distinctions.
On Jlan's sources: NOTNEO doesn't apply here; it's not WP doing translation, this is WP following sources. Let's look. DAD-IS, as he notes, distinguishes the Dutch from the English name as such. The FAO source he cites – but doesn't quote – actually notes the language of the name, e.g. "(english)" [sic], after breed names; for this breed, if one actually goes and looks, it gives "Twentse landgans (dutch)" (not "(english)"). Jlan's evidence is making my case for me. The Entente Europeéenne source is just some primary-source, two-author French spreadsheet, an internal document with no sources; we have no idea why it puts the Dutch name in the English column, but that's obviously an error; their "attempting" to draft a standard is not itself a standard. It doesn't actually even say that it's an attempt to establish a standard; that's Jlan's assertion. We already covered all that in the previous RM, along with why Jlan's idea that "Twente Landrace goose is a made-up name" isn't tenable, and why his interpretation of WP:NATURAL is incorrect, as shown by a long series of "Landrace" breed RMs cited in both nominations (with more in the second than the first). Repeating already-refuted arguments as if they had not been addressed already is WP:ICANTHEARYOU, and is't going to fool anyone. PS: I provided two, not "one", sources for Twente Landrace goose, and a link to more; I assume Jlan just somehow didn't hear that, either. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: no consensus due to lack of participation really. Try again in a few months would be my suggestion. Jenks24 ( talk) 11:51, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
Twentse Landgans →
Twente Landrace goose – Per
WP:COMMONNAME
[1] [Update: Trimmed unnecessary parameters from URL; should resolve error message one user got, below] and
WP:USEENGLISH. The current name is simply "Twente Landrace goose" in Dutch (well, technically the Dutch is a contraction of a longer phrase Twetse Landrasgans; the contractions would literally translate as 'Twente landgoose', but sources do not use such a phrase in English, and the Dutch no longer use a longer version). This move will also be consistent with
Landrace pig,
Dutch Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace pig,
British Landrace pig,
Finnish Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace goat,
Danish Landrace goat,
Dutch Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace sheep,
Danish landrace goose, etc. [That last has a lower-case "l" in "landrace" because it really is a
landrace; all the rest are
standardized breeds with formal names, named after the landraces from which they were developed. WP is presently capitalizing formal breed names as [if]
proper nouns, and this isolated RM is not the place to revisit that decision; this is a consistency and
WP:AT policy compliance move only.] —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted.
Jenks24 (
talk) 09:53, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
"We have a[n article about the] Shetland pony, which within the pony world is commonly called a "Shetland", likewise, within the horse world, we have "Mustangs" "Arabians" "Hanoverians" and so on. Outside of the horse world, any rational person will clarify an " Arabian horse" or a " Hanoverian horse" so as to be clear where we are talking about a horse or not."[5] — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 10:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Google debugging
|
---|
|
The result of the move request was: Move to Twente goose. After over two weeks, it appears we have consensus for this option. Cúchullain t/ c 20:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Twentse Landgans →
Twente Landrace goose (update: or →
Twente goose, per source provided later) – Per
WP:COMMONNAME
[6] and
WP:USEENGLISH. The current name is simply "Twente Landrace-goose" in Dutch (well, technically the Dutch is a contraction of a longer phrase Twetse Landrasgans; the contraction would literally translate as 'Twente landgoose', but sources do not use such a phrase in English, and the Dutch no longer use a longer version). This move will also be consistent with
Landrace pig,
American Landrace pig,
Dutch Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace pig,
British Landrace pig,
Finnish Landrace goat,
Swedish Landrace goat,
Danish Landrace goat,
Dutch Landrace pig,
Danish Landrace sheep,
Danish landrace goose, etc. [That last has a lower-case "l" in "landrace" because it really is a
landrace; all the rest are
standardized breeds with formal names, named after the landraces from which they were developed. WP is presently capitalizing formal breed names as [if]
proper nouns, and this isolated RM is not the place to revisit that decision; this is a consistency and
WP:AT policy compliance move only.] Top search result
[7] is to use of the proposed title as the name of the breed in a breed encyclopedia using the full phrase (though capitalizing it in title case as a heading), published in English by a European rare-breeds preservation society. Here's use in the 2012 book Keeping Geese: Breeds and Management
[8]
[9]
ISBN
978-1847973368 (which doesn't capitalize it for some reason, though this seems to be a typo, as they're consistent about that style otherwise, from a quick look-over). —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:55, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
PS:
WP:RECOGNIZABLE is also a factor; English does not have the same grammar as Dutch, so "Twentse" is unlikely to be recognized as a reference to
Twente by English speakers, some of whom may have heard of a kind of goose named for Twente (a probable reason for someone looking for this article, given the breed's obscurity, relative to the placename). —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC). Updated with additional name suggestion, 07:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
*Support seems like a reasonable argument. You also had a good argument against the only opposer last time, not sure why the previous RM was closed rather than just resisted for more comment. see below
InsertCleverPhraseHere
InsertTalkHere 05:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
"The one reliable source ... suggests [details]. I don't agree"? The OR disagreement is a non sequitur anyway: "suggests that this is the same breed as the [other breed]" does not in any way contradict "it's reported as a breed, we should treat it as one", and nothing about this RM has anything to do with whether this is a breed or not; no one here or in the sources proposed that it's something other than a breed, like a wild animal, or whatever it is that Jlan is imagining. Regardless, Jlan isn't in a position to oppose on his theory that the RS (which he concedes is an RS) is wrong.
If Jlan is convinced the breed isn't important, then why is he arguing about this at such length, and why doesn't he just take this stub (which has little hope of ever being expanded) to WP:AFD on WP:N grounds (the sources that it even exists are all tertiary, after all)? If he thinks it can be kept and can be distinguished from another obscure breed, this Grey Back, he's free to write an article on the latter, with sources not OR. Would both survive AfD? I doubt it. Absent a properly sourced article on such a distinction, then WP:TRUTH and WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE apply; it's not WP's job to split hairs (feathers?) about the finest alleged-but-maybe-unsourceable details of breed distinctions.
On Jlan's sources: NOTNEO doesn't apply here; it's not WP doing translation, this is WP following sources. Let's look. DAD-IS, as he notes, distinguishes the Dutch from the English name as such. The FAO source he cites – but doesn't quote – actually notes the language of the name, e.g. "(english)" [sic], after breed names; for this breed, if one actually goes and looks, it gives "Twentse landgans (dutch)" (not "(english)"). Jlan's evidence is making my case for me. The Entente Europeéenne source is just some primary-source, two-author French spreadsheet, an internal document with no sources; we have no idea why it puts the Dutch name in the English column, but that's obviously an error; their "attempting" to draft a standard is not itself a standard. It doesn't actually even say that it's an attempt to establish a standard; that's Jlan's assertion. We already covered all that in the previous RM, along with why Jlan's idea that "Twente Landrace goose is a made-up name" isn't tenable, and why his interpretation of WP:NATURAL is incorrect, as shown by a long series of "Landrace" breed RMs cited in both nominations (with more in the second than the first). Repeating already-refuted arguments as if they had not been addressed already is WP:ICANTHEARYOU, and is't going to fool anyone. PS: I provided two, not "one", sources for Twente Landrace goose, and a link to more; I assume Jlan just somehow didn't hear that, either. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)