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Frequently asked questions Q: Why don't you rename this article Türkiye or Turkiye, the correct name for this country? A: Because the English language Wikipedia has a WP:COMMONNAME policy. We use names for countries and places that are the names commonly used for them in English, regardless of what official organizations use. Technically, this kind of name is known as an exonym. For example, we use the name Germany, instead of the native endonym Deutschland. If or when that general English language usage changes (as has happened in the past with place names such as Mumbai and Beijing), the same WP:COMMONNAME policy implies that the English language Wikipedia will necessarily also follow suit. So far, that hasn't happened. This has been discussed many times, with the same result every time because of the common name policy. Latest discussion. Q: Why is officially the Republic of Türkiye used in the first sentence? A: Because this will make it clear "Türkiye" is official while still using the common colloquial for the article title. This will give readers a quick spelling reference for research purposes. Latest discussion. Q: If this is the country then where's the article for Turkey food? for Turkey bird? Or other "Turkey"-related things? A: We cover Turkey as food as another article, as well as Turkey (bird) for the bird, and other Turkey-related topics separately by other articles, see Turkey (disambiguation). |
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It's currently 13,585 words or 87kb. [1] Will aim for under 9k words per Wikipedia:Article_size and Wikipedia:Peer_review/Turkey/archive3. That means multiple sections will need to be trimmed. Although some areas need expansion. For example, coverage of earthquakes, faultlines etc are ridiculously short. Bogazicili ( talk) 20:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Bogazicili Two things before we get to the material discussed. Please do not re-revert when your change away from the stable version has been reverted. Secondly, the template you have given me for 'not providing a valid reason in the edit summary' is wholly inappropriate; I explained my reasoning quite clearly in an edit summary.
As for the content dispute; I disagree with you on multiple counts.
1) I disagree with the comment made by the peer reviewer; all citizens are Turkey are not by definition Turkish -- at least not by most definitions. Turkish as an identity covering all citizens is virtually never cited as an ethnic definition, but rather a legal term, because it was created as such and is generally not used by ethnically non-Turkish citizens as a pan-ethnicity. Our article on Turkish people makes this distinction:
While the legal use of the term Turkish as it pertains to a citizen of Turkey is different from the term's ethnic definition, the majority of the Turkish population (an estimated 70 to 75 percent) are of Turkish ethnicity.
Here, as in most WP:RS, a simple distinction is drawn; there is the ethnic definition of Turkish, covering three-fourths of the Turkey's population, and the legal definition, which is contrasted with the ethnic definition, and includes nearly everyone. The latter does not belong in the ethnic groups section, because it is not referred to, in WP:RS, as an ethnicity. (See the sources given from my quote)
2) There is, indeed, another ideological stance that knowingly conflates the legal term with the ethnic term. This should be considered WP:FRINGE, however, as I have never seen WP:RS that defends a Turkish origin for the Kurds, for example. That much is pseudo-science from the 1980 military junta. So if this second position is what you are referring to as ethnicity, then it would be WP:POV to use it here.
3) Yes, German can have a citizenship-based definition, but the context and the politics surrounding that are entirely different, and the German infobox has no "ethnic groups" section.
Long story short, the definition you are providing is not thought of as an ethnic one in mainstream scholarship, and therefore should not go into the ethnic groups section. Uness232 ( talk) 22:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Uness232 Chipmunkdavis Shadow4dark DeCausa Beshogur Lionel Cristiano, should we keep ethnicity stats in the infobox given that "Turk" also has citizenship meaning? As previously mentioned, many countries do not have ethnicity stats in the infobox. Bogazicili ( talk) 00:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Uness232: This started to become like a grandpa/uncle debate (this makes more sense in Turkish). No one is saying Kurdish ethnicity doesn't exist. You are arguing against a point I didn't make. Btw, there are also "nationalist political movements", or far right movements, that think ethnicity is all about "blood" in the world. My issue is with the oversimplification in the infobox. And this is WP:RS. Kirişci, Kemal; Winrow, Gareth M. (1997). The Kurdish Question and Turkey: An Example of a Trans-state Ethnic Conflict, p. 121:
However, in the case of Turkey, this inevitably raises the question of who is a Turk. Does the label 'Turk' refer to an ethnic background or to citizenship? How individuals perceive themselves is important. As noted earlier, individuals may perceive that they have a multiple identity. Which identity a person may choose to stress could be dependent on a particular context. And the largely psychological 'boundaries' between ethnic groups are not fixed. Different generations within a certain family could thus perceive themselves as either Kurdish or Turkish, or they may feel that they belong to both identities. A Kurd could consider him/herself to be a member of a specific tribe, hold a Kurdish ethnic identity and also feel him/ herself to be a Turkish citizen. On the other hand, a Kurd who is a citizen of Turkey may reject a Turkish identity in any form. Therefore someone like Hikmet Çetin would consider himself an ethnic Kurd of Turkish nationality (citizenship). He would regard himself as a Turkish Kurd. There are a number of Kurds, though, who not only refuse a Turkish identity in any form, but also publicly take offence against Hikmet Çetin for holding a multiple identity |
Bogazicili ( talk) 08:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Turkish constitution defines all citizens as “Turks”in the note in the infobox "Ethic groups", and the trivial statement that Turkish citizens self-identify ethnically the way they like. – Austronesier ( talk) 08:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
This has become boring and too time consuming. Just trying to assess if we need Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. Uness232, DeCausa, Austronesier, do you object to 1) footnotes removed by Austronesier [4] being added back? 2) object to saying "ethnic Turk", "ethnic Kurd" "other ethnic backgrounds" in the infobox, where it currently says Turk, Kurd, others? Bogazicili ( talk) 09:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Turkish law does not recognise minority ethnicities. All Turkish citizens are deemed to have the legal status of "Turk", which is not considered to indicate membership of an ethnic groupingThis would be cited to Bayir, Derya (2016). Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 9781317095804. (2) I'm opposed to add the word "ethnic" being add to each of the groupings. It's unnecessary and redundant as the heading of the parameter is "Ethnic groups". DeCausa ( talk) 11:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
"On the other hand, the 1924 Constitution took the Turkish nation as an entity made up of all disparate elements, that is, both ethnic Turks and nonethnic Turks as well as both Muslim Turks and non-Muslim Turks. Initially, some deputies met with consternation the Article 88, which read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of their religion and race, are Turks’. One such deputy, Celal Nuri from Gelibolu, expressed his concerns as follows: ‘We formerly used the adjective “Ottoman”, and this applied to all the people.. Now we are deleting it. … All the people of Turkey are not Turkish and Muslim. What shall we call these? If we do use the adjective “Turkish” not in respect to them, how else can we refer to them?’ As a response to this query, it was suggested that from the point of view of citizenship, all of the people were going to be considered as Turks. This formulation was adopted, and the draft Article 88 was amended to read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of religion and race, are Turks as regards citizenship’.46 The makers of the 1961 and 1982 Constitutions, too, adopted this formulation." |
It's a mess. I'll return to it later. There might be lump edits, rather than the incremental ones I've been doing. The article is also still too long. I'll probably condense and merge "Visual arts" and "Literature and theatre" sections into an Arts section. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Bump Bogazicili ( talk) 12:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Austronesier and Khirurg, this article is part of Wikipedia Core Contest. Would you mind discussing your edits here so the article doesn't get locked?
First of all, there are waves of Greek settlement: 3 or 4 settlements before 1200 BC, around 1000 BC, and in 750–480 BC. With the way you are adding your sentences, it is not inline with the chronology. Also the paragraph is 157 words now. Bogazicili ( talk) 18:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in the seventh century BCE.Why repeat Greek settlements and Greek colonists? Megara is also mentioned in the paragraph. Bogazicili ( talk) 18:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus. Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia. These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus...Bogazicili ( talk) 18:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus.,
Greeks colonists mixed with native Anatolians...and
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia...are all non-essential and can easily be removed. The last is not even strictly true, since a large number of colonies were founded by Miletus on the Black Sea coast and by several other city states on the southern coast well before Alexander. For the purposes of the history of Turkey, the main points are that a) There were several waves of Greek settlement, first by the Myceneans, then the main wave in 1000 BC following the Mycenean collapse, and then the 750-480 BC wave, that b) Numerous important cities were founded by these colonies, especially Smyrna/Izmir and Byzantium/Istanbul, and c) Miletus played an outsize role in philosophy, d) the two wonders of the world. I will draft something in the talkpage shortly. Khirurg ( talk) 23:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
Khirurg (
talk)
23:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
p. 369The only clear evidence we have for significant Mycenaean settlement anywhere in the Near Eastern region is at Miletus on the southwestern Anatolian coast, at the mouth of the Maeander River, and at the site now called Musgebi, further to the south, where a large number of Late Helladic IIIA–C chamber tombs have come to light (Mee 1978 :137–42).
Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates to or discusses information originally presented elsewhere.
Before the Greek migrations that followed the end of the Bronze Age (c. 1200 BCE), probably the only Greek-speaking communities on the west coast of Anatolia were Mycenaean settlements at Iasus and Müskebi on the Halicarnassus peninsula and walled Mycenaean colonies at Miletus and Colophon.[5]
In the river valleys of the Aegean shores, Greek migrations had begun around 1000 BCE. At first, these settlements were poor agricultural villages with singleroom, mud-brick houses. By the seventh century, these eastern Greek settlements grew more prosperous, expanding northward along the coast, and took the lead in building a powerful Greek civilization in the Aegean.p. 27 (Author: https://calvin.edu/directory/people/douglas-howard)
Beginning in the Mycenean period...Unless of course you are trying to argue that the presence of Mycenean settlements in Anatolia contradicts Mycenean presence in Anatolia. The other source you are quoting is a generalist history of modern Turkey, not a source that focuses on Anatolia. It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 753
By 900 b.c.e. , Greek settlements stretched from the entrances of the Hellespont to the peninsula of Knidos. Aeolian speakers possessed the shores of the Troad, Aeolis, and the island of Lesbos. Many of the communities of the southern Troad or Aeolis were dependent territories ( peraea ) of either Mytilene or Methymna on the island of Lesbos. Ionians settled thickly on the shores from Phocaea to Miletos and on the two great islands Chios and Samos; Dorians settled the shores between the two southern peninsulae of Halicarnassus and Knidos, and the islands of Kos and Rhodes.. But in any case it doesn't contradict the fact that there was a major migration of Greeks to Anatolia around 1000 BC, something which is well documented. Khirurg ( talk) 19:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms(and that is from Oxford Handbook of Anatolia you recommended above), you can't add "large scale" or "major wave". Do you have any source for the "major wave" part? Can you please provide it with page number and quote? Bogazicili ( talk) 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Here's the full quote pp. 752-753:
The arrival of the Greeks on the shores of Asia Minor was thus associated by later Classical authors with the downfall of the heroic kingdoms of the Mycenaean age ... It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms.
Bogazicili ( talk) 19:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Here's another 2020 source [8] in [9]:
The collapse of the Mycenaean and Hittite Empires in the twelfth century ushered in the Iron Age. [p. 224]
That people could and did move around the Aegean in the Early Iron Age is highly probable. That some “Greek” populations made their way to Anatolia is equally plausible, although it seems unlikely this was as part of an organized migration wave. More probable is a gradual, protracted process that involved interaction between various different population groups, resulting in later Iron Age periods in emergent new identities....Nevertheless, it is apparent that the focus of early Greek activity is on the west coast. Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted at through the presence of twelfth‐century BC ceramics, notably from Ephesos, Miletos, and the Dorian region [p. 225]
Again, 12th century BC and diverse population are noted above. This is in line with what we have in this article. Bogazicili ( talk) 20:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Proposal by Khirurg copied from above:
Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
Proposal by Bogazicili:
Before 1200 BC, there were several Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus.[92] Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia.[93] These settlements were grouped as Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them.[94] Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled.[95] Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed.[96] Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great.[97] Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers.[98] |
Bogazicili ( talk) 15:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted....These are scarce finds, often associated with areas that experienced prolonged contact with Mycenaean Greece, perhaps suggestive of maintained and complex east–west exchangesBogazicili ( talk) 01:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Greek colonists...and
These Eastern Greek settlementsshould be removed for brevity. Your proposal also contradicts itself, given that it states that there were Greek settlements before 1200 BC and then that "Greeks started migrating around 1000 BC". If they only started migrating around 1000 Bc, how did those settlements from before 1000 BC come about? Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as well? You proposal is not much of a proposal, it's just basically identical to what is in the article already. See below for a counter-proposal. Khirurg ( talk) 14:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as wel: They must have small towns compared to the population in other areas? Source says "largely (although not exclusively) limited" and text says "mostly limited". The explanation for pre-1200 BC is in the above source. Agreed about "These Eastern Greek settlements". We also don't need "after the specific Greek groups that settled them" due to previous sentence. Updated proposal 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Bogazicili ( talk) 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
after the specific Greek groups that settled themis necessary as an explanation to readers, otherwise the sentence makes no sense. Readers will be left to wonder why these regions were names as such. Khirurg ( talk) 15:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia? Bogazicili ( talk) 16:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
"Herodotus and Strabo record the story that the Pamphylians were the descendants of Greeks who arrived with the seers Calchas and Amphilochos after the Trojan War.", John D. Grainger, The cities of Pamphylia, Oxbow Books, 2009, p.5
The settlement of Greeks in Pamphylia is traditionally dated to the post Bronze-Age migrations. While it is true that Greek penetration into the interior of Anatolia was limited prior to Alexander, the same is not true of the southern and northern coasts. There were multiple Greek cities on the northern, western, and southern coasts of Anatolia long before Alexander, and the sources are all there. Khirurg ( talk) 19:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled, where did this colonization take place? The Propontis and Black Sea Coast, i.e. not western Anatolia. When did this take place? Before Alexander. At a minimum, the article should not contradict itself. Khirurg ( talk) 21:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Several Greek settlements existed in western Anatolia before 1200 BC, leading to interactions between Mycenaean Greeks and Anatolian peoples. Around 1000 BC, more Greeks migrated to the west coast of Anatolia. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea coast of Anatolia starting around 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived there. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
This factual, concise, on topic, NPOV, and grammatically correct. As you can see I have adopted some of your verbiage. Khirurg ( talk) 14:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Herodotus, as a native of Halicarnassus, brings first hand experience of the ethnic complexity of Caria, the region where migrating Greeks most intimately mixed with Anatolian populations [p. 22]
Ionians took refuge in Athens before their migration across the Aegean to the Anatolian coast, but points out that even those Ionians migrated without their families and took Carian wives by force after their arrival in Anatolia (1.146), creating an ethnic mix unacknowledged by the Ionians themselves. [p. 25]
Bogazicili ( talk) 14:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Ionian and Aeolian Greeks, refugees from former Mycenaean kingdoms, had intermingled and intermarried with native Anatolians [p. 754]
Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed. This is concise, accurate and on-topic. I don't know why this information is trying to be supressed. Borrowing the term used above, are you trying to portray Greek settlements in Anatolia as "undiluted"? And similar information is actually already in other paragraphs.
Greeks mixed with native Anatolians...you even removed the part
but maintained ties with their kin in mainland Greece and differentiated themselves from Anatolians, whom they regarded as barbarians, through the concept of the polis., even though is in the source. Quoting sources selectively is intellectually dishonest. Important cities such as Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna and Halicarnassus should be mentioned. And the link between Smyrna and Izmir and Byzantion and Istanbul should be stated explicitly, not hidden from readers. The factually incorrect and contradictory sentence about Greek influence being limited to the west coast until the arrival of Alexander (despite the presence of multiple Greek cities on the northern and southern coast) needs to go as well. The sentence
Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers.is grammatically awful and non-sequitur, and my sentence about the pre-Socratics is broader in scope. Khirurg ( talk) 19:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Greeks mixed with Anatolians.... Khirurg ( talk) 19:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great.also cannot stand for the same reasons. From the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 29
The Midas of Herodotus’s narrative is the first non-Greek to dedicate offerings at Delphi (1.14),indicating how far Greek influence had penetrated into the interior of Anatolia by the early seventh century b.c.e .. This directly contradicts the narrative of Greek influence being limited to the west coast. The sentence is also undue and POV, in that again only the Greek colonies are singled out for "limited" influence. Was Persian influence limited? Was Roman influence limited? Why is it always the same culture that is "mixed" and "limited", but none of the others? It would be helpful if people actually read the source the used instead of cherry-picking those pieces that fit their POV narrative. Khirurg ( talk) 01:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence in that offerings in Delphi is different than Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. I was referring to Hellenization. See below.
As for mixings, see the article:
They mixed with Iranic-speaking groups in the area and converted to Islam
Turkification continued as Ottomans mixed with various indigenous people in Anatolia and the Balkans
there were Turkic/Turkish migrations, intermarriages, and conversions into Islam
For Romans and Persians: I hadn't done the Roman part yet. I wrote the Persian part from Howard 2016, which is more concise. I offered same option about this paragraph ("We can simply switch to The History of Turkey by Douglas Howard, and just condense the first paragraph to what is covered in that source"), you refused. Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans etc also have maps which show maximum extent.
As such, all implications above are baseless. See: Wikipedia:Casting aspersions This article is subject to 3 Wikipedia:Contentious topics Bogazicili ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of AnatoliaRemember? Now that I am showing you a source (your own source) that shows Greek influence clearly penetrated to the interior, you are changing it to be about:
Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. That's called shifting of the goalposts and is highly dishonest. As for the "mixing", the source only refers to the Ionians, nothing about the Aeolians and Dorians. So you can't use it to apply to the Greeks as a whole. Khirurg ( talk) 02:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Piccco, I'm honestly very surprised this ethnic mix issue has become so major. It's part of human history and happens now. There is nothing wrong with interethnic relationships.
However, if it's such a taboo, we can drop it. I don't care if Greeks mixed or not. I just thought it was a concise way to refer to diversity in the area in that time period. ("Greeks mixed with native Anatolians" is only 5 words.) Unless you noticed, I'm paying close attention to the word count. We can have a longer sentence about other people in the area. (see below: "Anatolian populations of Phrygia, Lydia, Lycia, and Caria")
For influence, see sources below. We can have a sentence such as "In addition to settlements such as ... [1 or 2 examples in Med or Black sea?], influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great"
Sources
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Chapter 11 Anatolia chapter summary, page 221:
Influence: p 500
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For other issues, I'll respond later. I might take a wiki break. Bogazicili ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links. --
Do not use {{ cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.
Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them.t
Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. -- Otr500 ( talk) 03:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
OK, to be perfectly clear, I am NOT looking to reopen the controversy about renaming this article. In fact, I have zero opinion on the matter.
But I saw something, yesterday.
I went onto an official U.S. Government website having to do with international travel. In doing my business there, I had to list countries visited. There was a dropdown, but of course, it was very long. But there was the facility to start typing the name of a country into a space, and countries would start appearing. I tried typing "Turkey," and it had no listing for that. So I just went to the T's and looked.
And in the list, it was shown as "Türkiye." Uporządnicki ( talk) 14:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Republic of Türkiyeis already on the lead as used by the UN/UK/US, but Turkey remains the common usage. See WP:COMMONNAME. Beshogur ( talk) 16:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
We have too many Istanbul images. Per MOS:Images, we need to have a variety of images. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
I think the current 3 (Fatma Girik, Filiz Akın and Hülya Koçyiğit) best represent Turkish cinema. Any other suggestions? Bogazicili ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Based on this [14], we should have Ezhel [15]. As a second image, maybe we can get İbrahim Tatlıses (based on [16], although most sold albums statistic is from 2017) or maybe Sezen Aksu Bogazicili ( talk) 13:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
In this image [17], it's not apparent that there's an earthquake risk in the Aegean area. This image [18] is more relevant to the text. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
This one doesn't show Aegean region can have earthquakes.It is now shown on the new map. Lionel Cristiano ? 13:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Please gain consensus for this change on the talk pageWas there consensus before making this change? Can you explain? Lionel Cristiano ? 13:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
They are all İstanbul images.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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At the very end of the 'name' section it says that the UN agreed to use Türkiye instead of Turkey and still the name of the article is Turkey and not Türkiye. Please change this. 178.200.236.26 ( talk) 10:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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It's important to know that Turks are not the native people of the land. The land was native to many such as the Greeks,Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds 69.156.126.160 ( talk) 03:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Long time ago Türkiye changed its own name with the original name. All around the world, formal government bodies recongnised and changed it, except you. When do you think to change that wrong name with the correct one as Türkiye? Thank you very much. I look forward to hearing from you soon. 82.34.156.105 ( talk) 13:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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GDP per capita says "71th" Should say 71st 73.218.200.207 ( talk) 15:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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The title is Turkey but according to law Turkey’s name has change to Türkiye now please change the title so the mistakes and misinformation can be prevented Curious2023 ( talk) 19:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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Change Turkey to Türkiye 68.131.29.89 ( talk) 19:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Must correct that they were genociding Turks. Turks defended themselves. 72.66.6.17 ( talk) 03:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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The country has officially changed it's name from Turkey to Türkiye. So I request to change the heading as Türkiye and add the line " It was formally known as 'Turkey'" . Awijeetsharma ( talk) 17:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
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Frequently asked questions Q: Why don't you rename this article Türkiye or Turkiye, the correct name for this country? A: Because the English language Wikipedia has a WP:COMMONNAME policy. We use names for countries and places that are the names commonly used for them in English, regardless of what official organizations use. Technically, this kind of name is known as an exonym. For example, we use the name Germany, instead of the native endonym Deutschland. If or when that general English language usage changes (as has happened in the past with place names such as Mumbai and Beijing), the same WP:COMMONNAME policy implies that the English language Wikipedia will necessarily also follow suit. So far, that hasn't happened. This has been discussed many times, with the same result every time because of the common name policy. Latest discussion. Q: Why is officially the Republic of Türkiye used in the first sentence? A: Because this will make it clear "Türkiye" is official while still using the common colloquial for the article title. This will give readers a quick spelling reference for research purposes. Latest discussion. Q: If this is the country then where's the article for Turkey food? for Turkey bird? Or other "Turkey"-related things? A: We cover Turkey as food as another article, as well as Turkey (bird) for the bird, and other Turkey-related topics separately by other articles, see Turkey (disambiguation). |
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It's currently 13,585 words or 87kb. [1] Will aim for under 9k words per Wikipedia:Article_size and Wikipedia:Peer_review/Turkey/archive3. That means multiple sections will need to be trimmed. Although some areas need expansion. For example, coverage of earthquakes, faultlines etc are ridiculously short. Bogazicili ( talk) 20:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Bogazicili Two things before we get to the material discussed. Please do not re-revert when your change away from the stable version has been reverted. Secondly, the template you have given me for 'not providing a valid reason in the edit summary' is wholly inappropriate; I explained my reasoning quite clearly in an edit summary.
As for the content dispute; I disagree with you on multiple counts.
1) I disagree with the comment made by the peer reviewer; all citizens are Turkey are not by definition Turkish -- at least not by most definitions. Turkish as an identity covering all citizens is virtually never cited as an ethnic definition, but rather a legal term, because it was created as such and is generally not used by ethnically non-Turkish citizens as a pan-ethnicity. Our article on Turkish people makes this distinction:
While the legal use of the term Turkish as it pertains to a citizen of Turkey is different from the term's ethnic definition, the majority of the Turkish population (an estimated 70 to 75 percent) are of Turkish ethnicity.
Here, as in most WP:RS, a simple distinction is drawn; there is the ethnic definition of Turkish, covering three-fourths of the Turkey's population, and the legal definition, which is contrasted with the ethnic definition, and includes nearly everyone. The latter does not belong in the ethnic groups section, because it is not referred to, in WP:RS, as an ethnicity. (See the sources given from my quote)
2) There is, indeed, another ideological stance that knowingly conflates the legal term with the ethnic term. This should be considered WP:FRINGE, however, as I have never seen WP:RS that defends a Turkish origin for the Kurds, for example. That much is pseudo-science from the 1980 military junta. So if this second position is what you are referring to as ethnicity, then it would be WP:POV to use it here.
3) Yes, German can have a citizenship-based definition, but the context and the politics surrounding that are entirely different, and the German infobox has no "ethnic groups" section.
Long story short, the definition you are providing is not thought of as an ethnic one in mainstream scholarship, and therefore should not go into the ethnic groups section. Uness232 ( talk) 22:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Uness232 Chipmunkdavis Shadow4dark DeCausa Beshogur Lionel Cristiano, should we keep ethnicity stats in the infobox given that "Turk" also has citizenship meaning? As previously mentioned, many countries do not have ethnicity stats in the infobox. Bogazicili ( talk) 00:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Uness232: This started to become like a grandpa/uncle debate (this makes more sense in Turkish). No one is saying Kurdish ethnicity doesn't exist. You are arguing against a point I didn't make. Btw, there are also "nationalist political movements", or far right movements, that think ethnicity is all about "blood" in the world. My issue is with the oversimplification in the infobox. And this is WP:RS. Kirişci, Kemal; Winrow, Gareth M. (1997). The Kurdish Question and Turkey: An Example of a Trans-state Ethnic Conflict, p. 121:
However, in the case of Turkey, this inevitably raises the question of who is a Turk. Does the label 'Turk' refer to an ethnic background or to citizenship? How individuals perceive themselves is important. As noted earlier, individuals may perceive that they have a multiple identity. Which identity a person may choose to stress could be dependent on a particular context. And the largely psychological 'boundaries' between ethnic groups are not fixed. Different generations within a certain family could thus perceive themselves as either Kurdish or Turkish, or they may feel that they belong to both identities. A Kurd could consider him/herself to be a member of a specific tribe, hold a Kurdish ethnic identity and also feel him/ herself to be a Turkish citizen. On the other hand, a Kurd who is a citizen of Turkey may reject a Turkish identity in any form. Therefore someone like Hikmet Çetin would consider himself an ethnic Kurd of Turkish nationality (citizenship). He would regard himself as a Turkish Kurd. There are a number of Kurds, though, who not only refuse a Turkish identity in any form, but also publicly take offence against Hikmet Çetin for holding a multiple identity |
Bogazicili ( talk) 08:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Turkish constitution defines all citizens as “Turks”in the note in the infobox "Ethic groups", and the trivial statement that Turkish citizens self-identify ethnically the way they like. – Austronesier ( talk) 08:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
This has become boring and too time consuming. Just trying to assess if we need Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution. Uness232, DeCausa, Austronesier, do you object to 1) footnotes removed by Austronesier [4] being added back? 2) object to saying "ethnic Turk", "ethnic Kurd" "other ethnic backgrounds" in the infobox, where it currently says Turk, Kurd, others? Bogazicili ( talk) 09:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Turkish law does not recognise minority ethnicities. All Turkish citizens are deemed to have the legal status of "Turk", which is not considered to indicate membership of an ethnic groupingThis would be cited to Bayir, Derya (2016). Minorities and Nationalism in Turkish Law. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 9781317095804. (2) I'm opposed to add the word "ethnic" being add to each of the groupings. It's unnecessary and redundant as the heading of the parameter is "Ethnic groups". DeCausa ( talk) 11:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
"On the other hand, the 1924 Constitution took the Turkish nation as an entity made up of all disparate elements, that is, both ethnic Turks and nonethnic Turks as well as both Muslim Turks and non-Muslim Turks. Initially, some deputies met with consternation the Article 88, which read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of their religion and race, are Turks’. One such deputy, Celal Nuri from Gelibolu, expressed his concerns as follows: ‘We formerly used the adjective “Ottoman”, and this applied to all the people.. Now we are deleting it. … All the people of Turkey are not Turkish and Muslim. What shall we call these? If we do use the adjective “Turkish” not in respect to them, how else can we refer to them?’ As a response to this query, it was suggested that from the point of view of citizenship, all of the people were going to be considered as Turks. This formulation was adopted, and the draft Article 88 was amended to read, ‘The people of Turkey, regardless of religion and race, are Turks as regards citizenship’.46 The makers of the 1961 and 1982 Constitutions, too, adopted this formulation." |
It's a mess. I'll return to it later. There might be lump edits, rather than the incremental ones I've been doing. The article is also still too long. I'll probably condense and merge "Visual arts" and "Literature and theatre" sections into an Arts section. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Bump Bogazicili ( talk) 12:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Austronesier and Khirurg, this article is part of Wikipedia Core Contest. Would you mind discussing your edits here so the article doesn't get locked?
First of all, there are waves of Greek settlement: 3 or 4 settlements before 1200 BC, around 1000 BC, and in 750–480 BC. With the way you are adding your sentences, it is not inline with the chronology. Also the paragraph is 157 words now. Bogazicili ( talk) 18:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in the seventh century BCE.Why repeat Greek settlements and Greek colonists? Megara is also mentioned in the paragraph. Bogazicili ( talk) 18:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus. Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia. These eastern Greek settlements played a vital role in shaping the Archaic Greek civilization; important cities included Miletus...Bogazicili ( talk) 18:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Before 1200 BC, there were four Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus.,
Greeks colonists mixed with native Anatolians...and
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia...are all non-essential and can easily be removed. The last is not even strictly true, since a large number of colonies were founded by Miletus on the Black Sea coast and by several other city states on the southern coast well before Alexander. For the purposes of the history of Turkey, the main points are that a) There were several waves of Greek settlement, first by the Myceneans, then the main wave in 1000 BC following the Mycenean collapse, and then the 750-480 BC wave, that b) Numerous important cities were founded by these colonies, especially Smyrna/Izmir and Byzantium/Istanbul, and c) Miletus played an outsize role in philosophy, d) the two wonders of the world. I will draft something in the talkpage shortly. Khirurg ( talk) 23:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
Khirurg (
talk)
23:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
p. 369The only clear evidence we have for significant Mycenaean settlement anywhere in the Near Eastern region is at Miletus on the southwestern Anatolian coast, at the mouth of the Maeander River, and at the site now called Musgebi, further to the south, where a large number of Late Helladic IIIA–C chamber tombs have come to light (Mee 1978 :137–42).
Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates to or discusses information originally presented elsewhere.
Before the Greek migrations that followed the end of the Bronze Age (c. 1200 BCE), probably the only Greek-speaking communities on the west coast of Anatolia were Mycenaean settlements at Iasus and Müskebi on the Halicarnassus peninsula and walled Mycenaean colonies at Miletus and Colophon.[5]
In the river valleys of the Aegean shores, Greek migrations had begun around 1000 BCE. At first, these settlements were poor agricultural villages with singleroom, mud-brick houses. By the seventh century, these eastern Greek settlements grew more prosperous, expanding northward along the coast, and took the lead in building a powerful Greek civilization in the Aegean.p. 27 (Author: https://calvin.edu/directory/people/douglas-howard)
Beginning in the Mycenean period...Unless of course you are trying to argue that the presence of Mycenean settlements in Anatolia contradicts Mycenean presence in Anatolia. The other source you are quoting is a generalist history of modern Turkey, not a source that focuses on Anatolia. It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 753
By 900 b.c.e. , Greek settlements stretched from the entrances of the Hellespont to the peninsula of Knidos. Aeolian speakers possessed the shores of the Troad, Aeolis, and the island of Lesbos. Many of the communities of the southern Troad or Aeolis were dependent territories ( peraea ) of either Mytilene or Methymna on the island of Lesbos. Ionians settled thickly on the shores from Phocaea to Miletos and on the two great islands Chios and Samos; Dorians settled the shores between the two southern peninsulae of Halicarnassus and Knidos, and the islands of Kos and Rhodes.. But in any case it doesn't contradict the fact that there was a major migration of Greeks to Anatolia around 1000 BC, something which is well documented. Khirurg ( talk) 19:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms(and that is from Oxford Handbook of Anatolia you recommended above), you can't add "large scale" or "major wave". Do you have any source for the "major wave" part? Can you please provide it with page number and quote? Bogazicili ( talk) 19:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Here's the full quote pp. 752-753:
The arrival of the Greeks on the shores of Asia Minor was thus associated by later Classical authors with the downfall of the heroic kingdoms of the Mycenaean age ... It is impossible to estimate the scale of Greek migrations after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms.
Bogazicili ( talk) 19:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Here's another 2020 source [8] in [9]:
The collapse of the Mycenaean and Hittite Empires in the twelfth century ushered in the Iron Age. [p. 224]
That people could and did move around the Aegean in the Early Iron Age is highly probable. That some “Greek” populations made their way to Anatolia is equally plausible, although it seems unlikely this was as part of an organized migration wave. More probable is a gradual, protracted process that involved interaction between various different population groups, resulting in later Iron Age periods in emergent new identities....Nevertheless, it is apparent that the focus of early Greek activity is on the west coast. Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted at through the presence of twelfth‐century BC ceramics, notably from Ephesos, Miletos, and the Dorian region [p. 225]
Again, 12th century BC and diverse population are noted above. This is in line with what we have in this article. Bogazicili ( talk) 20:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Proposal by Khirurg copied from above:
Beginning in the Mycenean period, there were several waves of Greek settlement on the coast of Anatolia, with a major wave around 1000 BC. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea starting 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived in Miletus. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
Proposal by Bogazicili:
Before 1200 BC, there were several Greek-speaking settlements in Anatolia, including Miletus.[92] Around 1000 BC, Greeks started migrating to the west coast of Anatolia.[93] These settlements were grouped as Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them.[94] Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled.[95] Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed.[96] Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great.[97] Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers.[98] |
Bogazicili ( talk) 15:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Continuity of occupation from the Late Bronze Age and into the Early Iron Age is hinted....These are scarce finds, often associated with areas that experienced prolonged contact with Mycenaean Greece, perhaps suggestive of maintained and complex east–west exchangesBogazicili ( talk) 01:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Greek colonists...and
These Eastern Greek settlementsshould be removed for brevity. Your proposal also contradicts itself, given that it states that there were Greek settlements before 1200 BC and then that "Greeks started migrating around 1000 BC". If they only started migrating around 1000 Bc, how did those settlements from before 1000 BC come about? Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as well? You proposal is not much of a proposal, it's just basically identical to what is in the article already. See below for a counter-proposal. Khirurg ( talk) 14:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Lastly, how is the influence of Greek communities limited to western Anatolia if multiple colonies were established in the northern and southern coasts as wel: They must have small towns compared to the population in other areas? Source says "largely (although not exclusively) limited" and text says "mostly limited". The explanation for pre-1200 BC is in the above source. Agreed about "These Eastern Greek settlements". We also don't need "after the specific Greek groups that settled them" due to previous sentence. Updated proposal 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Bogazicili ( talk) 14:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
after the specific Greek groups that settled themis necessary as an explanation to readers, otherwise the sentence makes no sense. Readers will be left to wonder why these regions were names as such. Khirurg ( talk) 15:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
It is better to use academic sources that specialize on Anatolia, e.g. the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia? Bogazicili ( talk) 16:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
"Herodotus and Strabo record the story that the Pamphylians were the descendants of Greeks who arrived with the seers Calchas and Amphilochos after the Trojan War.", John D. Grainger, The cities of Pamphylia, Oxbow Books, 2009, p.5
The settlement of Greeks in Pamphylia is traditionally dated to the post Bronze-Age migrations. While it is true that Greek penetration into the interior of Anatolia was limited prior to Alexander, the same is not true of the southern and northern coasts. There were multiple Greek cities on the northern, western, and southern coasts of Anatolia long before Alexander, and the sources are all there. Khirurg ( talk) 19:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Further Greek colonization in Anatolia was led by Miletus and Megara in 750–480 BC; cities such as Byzantion were settled, where did this colonization take place? The Propontis and Black Sea Coast, i.e. not western Anatolia. When did this take place? Before Alexander. At a minimum, the article should not contradict itself. Khirurg ( talk) 21:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Several Greek settlements existed in western Anatolia before 1200 BC, leading to interactions between Mycenaean Greeks and Anatolian peoples. Around 1000 BC, more Greeks migrated to the west coast of Anatolia. The settled regions were named Aeolis, Ionia, and Doris, after the specific Greek groups that settled them. Numerous important cities were founded by these colonists, such as Miletus, Ephesus, Halicarnassus, Smyrna (now İzmir) and Byzantium (now Istanbul), the latter founded by Greek colonists from Megara in c. 667 BC. Some of these cities, in particular Miletus, went on to found numerous colonies of their own on the coasts of the Black Sea coast of Anatolia starting around 750 BC. Miletus was also home to the Ionian school of philosophy, and many of the most prominent pre-Socratic philosophers lived there. Two of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, and the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, were located in these cities.
This factual, concise, on topic, NPOV, and grammatically correct. As you can see I have adopted some of your verbiage. Khirurg ( talk) 14:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Herodotus, as a native of Halicarnassus, brings first hand experience of the ethnic complexity of Caria, the region where migrating Greeks most intimately mixed with Anatolian populations [p. 22]
Ionians took refuge in Athens before their migration across the Aegean to the Anatolian coast, but points out that even those Ionians migrated without their families and took Carian wives by force after their arrival in Anatolia (1.146), creating an ethnic mix unacknowledged by the Ionians themselves. [p. 25]
Bogazicili ( talk) 14:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)Ionian and Aeolian Greeks, refugees from former Mycenaean kingdoms, had intermingled and intermarried with native Anatolians [p. 754]
Greeks mixed with native Anatolians and city-states developed. This is concise, accurate and on-topic. I don't know why this information is trying to be supressed. Borrowing the term used above, are you trying to portray Greek settlements in Anatolia as "undiluted"? And similar information is actually already in other paragraphs.
Greeks mixed with native Anatolians...you even removed the part
but maintained ties with their kin in mainland Greece and differentiated themselves from Anatolians, whom they regarded as barbarians, through the concept of the polis., even though is in the source. Quoting sources selectively is intellectually dishonest. Important cities such as Miletus, Ephesus, Smyrna and Halicarnassus should be mentioned. And the link between Smyrna and Izmir and Byzantion and Istanbul should be stated explicitly, not hidden from readers. The factually incorrect and contradictory sentence about Greek influence being limited to the west coast until the arrival of Alexander (despite the presence of multiple Greek cities on the northern and southern coast) needs to go as well. The sentence
Thales and Anaximander from Miletus are also thought of first Western philosophers.is grammatically awful and non-sequitur, and my sentence about the pre-Socratics is broader in scope. Khirurg ( talk) 19:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Greeks mixed with Anatolians.... Khirurg ( talk) 19:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great.also cannot stand for the same reasons. From the Oxford Handbook of Anatolia, p. 29
The Midas of Herodotus’s narrative is the first non-Greek to dedicate offerings at Delphi (1.14),indicating how far Greek influence had penetrated into the interior of Anatolia by the early seventh century b.c.e .. This directly contradicts the narrative of Greek influence being limited to the west coast. The sentence is also undue and POV, in that again only the Greek colonies are singled out for "limited" influence. Was Persian influence limited? Was Roman influence limited? Why is it always the same culture that is "mixed" and "limited", but none of the others? It would be helpful if people actually read the source the used instead of cherry-picking those pieces that fit their POV narrative. Khirurg ( talk) 01:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence in that offerings in Delphi is different than Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. I was referring to Hellenization. See below.
As for mixings, see the article:
They mixed with Iranic-speaking groups in the area and converted to Islam
Turkification continued as Ottomans mixed with various indigenous people in Anatolia and the Balkans
there were Turkic/Turkish migrations, intermarriages, and conversions into Islam
For Romans and Persians: I hadn't done the Roman part yet. I wrote the Persian part from Howard 2016, which is more concise. I offered same option about this paragraph ("We can simply switch to The History of Turkey by Douglas Howard, and just condense the first paragraph to what is covered in that source"), you refused. Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans etc also have maps which show maximum extent.
As such, all implications above are baseless. See: Wikipedia:Casting aspersions This article is subject to 3 Wikipedia:Contentious topics Bogazicili ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of AnatoliaRemember? Now that I am showing you a source (your own source) that shows Greek influence clearly penetrated to the interior, you are changing it to be about:
Greek language and settlements reaching the interior. That's called shifting of the goalposts and is highly dishonest. As for the "mixing", the source only refers to the Ionians, nothing about the Aeolians and Dorians. So you can't use it to apply to the Greeks as a whole. Khirurg ( talk) 02:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Piccco, I'm honestly very surprised this ethnic mix issue has become so major. It's part of human history and happens now. There is nothing wrong with interethnic relationships.
However, if it's such a taboo, we can drop it. I don't care if Greeks mixed or not. I just thought it was a concise way to refer to diversity in the area in that time period. ("Greeks mixed with native Anatolians" is only 5 words.) Unless you noticed, I'm paying close attention to the word count. We can have a longer sentence about other people in the area. (see below: "Anatolian populations of Phrygia, Lydia, Lycia, and Caria")
For influence, see sources below. We can have a sentence such as "In addition to settlements such as ... [1 or 2 examples in Med or Black sea?], influence of Greek communities were mostly limited to western coast of Anatolia until the time of Alexander the Great"
Sources
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Chapter 11 Anatolia chapter summary, page 221:
Influence: p 500
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For other issues, I'll respond later. I might take a wiki break. Bogazicili ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Links in the "External links" section should be kept to a minimum. A lack of external links or a small number of external links is not a reason to add external links.
There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to the external links section of an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia. On articles about topics with many fansites, for example, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate.
Minimize the number of links. --
Do not use {{ cite web}} or other citation templates in the External links section. Citation templates are permitted in the Further reading section.
Disputed links should be excluded by default unless and until there is a consensus to include them.t
Normally, only one official link is included. If the subject of the article has more than one official website, then more than one link may be appropriate, under a very few limited circumstances. -- Otr500 ( talk) 03:18, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
OK, to be perfectly clear, I am NOT looking to reopen the controversy about renaming this article. In fact, I have zero opinion on the matter.
But I saw something, yesterday.
I went onto an official U.S. Government website having to do with international travel. In doing my business there, I had to list countries visited. There was a dropdown, but of course, it was very long. But there was the facility to start typing the name of a country into a space, and countries would start appearing. I tried typing "Turkey," and it had no listing for that. So I just went to the T's and looked.
And in the list, it was shown as "Türkiye." Uporządnicki ( talk) 14:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Republic of Türkiyeis already on the lead as used by the UN/UK/US, but Turkey remains the common usage. See WP:COMMONNAME. Beshogur ( talk) 16:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
We have too many Istanbul images. Per MOS:Images, we need to have a variety of images. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
I think the current 3 (Fatma Girik, Filiz Akın and Hülya Koçyiğit) best represent Turkish cinema. Any other suggestions? Bogazicili ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Based on this [14], we should have Ezhel [15]. As a second image, maybe we can get İbrahim Tatlıses (based on [16], although most sold albums statistic is from 2017) or maybe Sezen Aksu Bogazicili ( talk) 13:01, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
In this image [17], it's not apparent that there's an earthquake risk in the Aegean area. This image [18] is more relevant to the text. Bogazicili ( talk) 15:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
This one doesn't show Aegean region can have earthquakes.It is now shown on the new map. Lionel Cristiano ? 13:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Please gain consensus for this change on the talk pageWas there consensus before making this change? Can you explain? Lionel Cristiano ? 13:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
They are all İstanbul images.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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At the very end of the 'name' section it says that the UN agreed to use Türkiye instead of Turkey and still the name of the article is Turkey and not Türkiye. Please change this. 178.200.236.26 ( talk) 10:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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It's important to know that Turks are not the native people of the land. The land was native to many such as the Greeks,Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds 69.156.126.160 ( talk) 03:19, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Long time ago Türkiye changed its own name with the original name. All around the world, formal government bodies recongnised and changed it, except you. When do you think to change that wrong name with the correct one as Türkiye? Thank you very much. I look forward to hearing from you soon. 82.34.156.105 ( talk) 13:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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GDP per capita says "71th" Should say 71st 73.218.200.207 ( talk) 15:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
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The title is Turkey but according to law Turkey’s name has change to Türkiye now please change the title so the mistakes and misinformation can be prevented Curious2023 ( talk) 19:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
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Change Turkey to Türkiye 68.131.29.89 ( talk) 19:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
Must correct that they were genociding Turks. Turks defended themselves. 72.66.6.17 ( talk) 03:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
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The country has officially changed it's name from Turkey to Türkiye. So I request to change the heading as Türkiye and add the line " It was formally known as 'Turkey'" . Awijeetsharma ( talk) 17:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)