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Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague ( talk · contribs) 05:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
* ""Tuqaq Temur Yalig" literally means "iron bow" or "with an iron bow" in old Turkic language." His full name is written above as "Duqaq"...Tuqaq should be the favored spelling, as it's the article's title.
*"Little is known about Tuqaq or his early activities as most of the details of his life are uncertain and come from later written or oral sources, composed particularly after the Battle of Dandanaqan." First half of the sentence should have at least one comma splicing it up.
*"...since arrow and bow were considered a sign of sovereignty in Oghuz culture. " Not sure of the contextual meaning of sovereignty here.
*"The Persian epic Maliqnameh (Book of Kings) mentions a warrior called Tuqaq who served a Khazar Khagan (ruler)." If he served the Khazars prior to the Oghuz, perhaps that chapter of his life is better suited for the "Origins" chapter?
*"...to join the Seljuq's tribe after it left Oghuz Yabgu for a new homeland in Transoxiana." Not sure if we need "the" before Seljuq here.
*As for his feud with the yabghu, that seems a pretty clear indicator that he himself was Muslim. Is that not the consensus?
*"After his death, his son, Seljuq, was named..." No need for the commas around "Seljuq"
*As for the "See also" section, I'd say anything that is hyperlinked within the prose doesn't need to be included.
QatarStarsLeague ( talk) 05:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
there is not misrepresentation- There is a t/p discussion, where you can argue. TrangaBellam ( talk) 10:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.
Googling for "Ethnocultural Relations of the Kyrgyz in the Middle Ages" leads to a single hit which is, unsurprisingly, our article. "Imel Moldabaev" (the author) gives zero results; "Moldabaev, Imel" returns our article. No hits in GBooks or GScholar. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
A short list of works by "an unknown" historian (Google translate them yourself):
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Молдобаев И.Б. "Манас" ‑ историко-культурный памятник кыргызов. – Бишкек: “Кыргызстан”, 1995. ‑ 311 бет. – ISBN 565500965X, 9785655009653. – Государственная дирекция “Манас‑1000”. – Национальная академия наук Кыргызской Республики. Институт истории. – Научно-пропагандистский деловой проект “Мурас”. О некоторых социальных терминах эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1975. С. 182-198. Об этнокультурных связях киргизского и казахского народов (по материалам эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш») // Этнические и историко-культурные связи тюркских народов СССР. Всесоюз. тюркологии, конф. 27-29 сент. 1976 г. Тез. докл. и сообщ. Алма-Ата, 1976. Эпос и народная медицина // Здоровье (Ден соолук). 1977. № 3. С. 8-9 (на кирг. яз.). Вопросы народной медицины киргизов в эпосе «Жаныш и Байыш» // Актуальные вопросы здравоохранения и здоровья населения. Сб. науч. трудов кафедры социальной гигиены и организации здравоохранения. Т. 122. Фрунзе, 1978. С. 126-133. Киргизский эпос как источник по истории одежды // Сов. этнография (далее — СЭ). 1979. № 2. С. 137-140. Тюрко-монгольский эпос как историко-этнографический материал (на примере киргизского эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш») // Джангар и проблемы эпического творчества тюрко-монгольских народов. Матер. Всесоюз. науч. конф. Элиста, 17-19 мая 1978 г. М, 1980. С. 286-290. Вклад В.В. Бартольда в использование фольклора киргизского народа как историко-этнографического источника // Вопросы истории, идеологии, философии, культуры народов Востока. Источниковедение, историография. Тез. конф. аспирантов и молодых научных сотрудников. М, 1981. Т. 1. С. 14-16. О географических терминах эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1981. С. 167-184. В фокусе комплексного исследования. Рец. на кн.: Р.З. Кыдырбаев. Генезис эпоса «Манас». Фрунзе, 1980 // Литературный Киргизстан. 1982. № 2. С. 115-119. Башкирско-киргизские параллели в этнонимике эпоса «Манас» // Вопросы истории Южного Урала. Уфа, 1982. С. 83-92. Этнографические истоки одного мотива из эпоса киргизов и народов Центральной Азии // Проблемы хакасского фольклора. Абакан, 1982. С. 124-130. Об одном древнем инструменте народной медицины // СЭ. 1983. № 3. С. 97-99 (в соавт. с А.Д. Грач). Эпос «Жаныш и Байыш» как историко-этнографический источник. Фрунзе, 1983. Историко-культурная общность киргизов с народами Центральной Азии (по материалам эпоса «Манас») // Историко-культурные связи народов Центральной Азии. Улан-Удэ, 1983. С. 78-83. О некоторых древних медицинских инструментах киргизов (по данным эпоса «Манас»). // Культура и искусство Киргизии. Вып. 2. Тезисы докладов Всесоюзной научной конференции. 3-6 июня 1983 г. Л.: 1983. Историко-культурное значение героического эпоса «Эр Солтоной» // Советский Киргизстан: страницы истории и современность. Фрунзе, 1984. Об историко-этнографических терминах «Киргизско-русского словаря К.К. Юдахина» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1984. С. 85-94. К проблеме изучения этнокультурных связей киргизского и тувинского народов // Проблемы истории Тувы. Кызыл, 1984. С. 207-214. Узбекско-киргизские этнокультурные связи в свете эпоса «Манас» // Фольклор, литература и история Востока. Матер. III Всесоюз. тюркологич. конф. Ташкент, 1984. С. 403-406. Немеркнущее сказание: 100 лет первой публикации эпоса «Манас» // Учитель Киргизстана. 1985. 18 декабря. О гидрониме Ала-Кел (по материалам киргизских эпических произведений) // Ономастика Киргизии. Вып. 1. Фрунзе, 1985. Отражение этнических связей киргизов в эпосе «Манас». Фрунзе, 1985. Топонимы, связанные с именами персонажей эпоса «Манас» // Третьи научные чтения, посв. памяти академиков И.А. Батманова, К.К. Юдахина, Б.М. Юнусалиева. Тез. докл. и сообщ. Ош, 1985. С. 33. Исторические связи киргизов с народами Саяно-Алтая // Историко-культурные контакты народов алтайской языковой общности. Тез. докл. XXIX постоянной междунар. алтаистической конф. Вып. 1. История, литература, искусство. М., 1986. С. 45-47. Названия музыкальных инструментов в эпосе «Манас» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1986. С. 67-80. Некоторые проблемы историко-этнографического и лингвистического изучения эпоса «Манас» // Исследование по киргизскому языкознанию. Фрунзе, 1987. С. 106-114. Рерихи о киргизах // Ала-Тоо. 1987. № 12. С. 98-106. Изучение истории духовной культуры киргизского народа // Чокан Валиханов и современность. Сб. матер. Всесоюз. науч. конф., посв. 150-летию со дня рождения Ч.Ч. Валиханова. Алма-Ата, 1988. С. 158-164. Саяно-Алтайские истоки духовной культуры киргизского народа // Тюркология. Тез. докл. и сообщ. V Всесоюз. тюркологич. конф., 7-9 сентября 1988 г. Фрунзе, 1988. С. 45-47. Статьи в сборнике: Вопросы этнической истории киргизского народа / Отв. ред. О.К.Караев, И.Молдобаев. -- Фрунзе, 1989. 143 с. Эпос «Манас» как историко-этнографический источник // Сов. тюркология. 1989. № 3. С. 17-23. Эпос «Манас» как источник изучения духовной культуры киргизского народа. Фрунзе, 1989. Об этнических и культурных контактах киргизов с каракалпаками // Этническая история и традиционная культура народов Средней Азии и Казахстана. Нукус, 1989. С. 222-231. Фольклор киргизского народа как источник по этнической истории // Проблемы этногенеза и этнической истории народов Средней Азии и Казахстана. Вып. 3. Этнография. М., 1991. С. 103-112. Киргизско-сибирские фольклорные параллели и связи // Фольклор и современная культура. Якутск, 1991. С. 12-20. Устные рассказы о кыргызах у народов Сибири (к вопросу об этногенезе киргизов) // Этническая история народов Южной Сибири и Центральной Азии. Новосибирск, 1983. С. 292-297. Вопросы комплексного изучения эпоса «Манас» (изучение эпоса «Манас» в учебных заведениях) // Вопросы методики преподавания эпоса «Манас» в средней и высшей школе. Тез. докл. на республиканск. науч. конф. Бишкек, 1994. С. 27-36 (на кирг. яз.). Эпос «Манас» и его значение для изучения этнокультурных связей с башкортами и татарами // Манас—1000. Сб. докл. второй конф. татарской диаспоры «Татары в Кыргызстане» на тему «Вклад татарских ученых в исследование эпоса "Манас"». Бишкек, 1995. С. 16-29. 180 статей для двухтомной энциклопедии «Манас» // Манас. Энциклопедия. Т. 1-2. Бишкек, 1995 (на кирг. яз.). Происхождение этнической культуры кыргызов (III в. до н.э. — XV в. н.э.) // Кыргызы: Источники, история, этнография. Бишкек, 1996. С. 485-520. Опыт реконструкции этнической истории кыргызов по данным «Манаса» и других фольклорных произведений // Кыргызы: этногенетические и историко-культурные процессы в древности и средневековье в Центральной Азии. Матер, междунар. науч. конф., посв. 1000-летию эпоса «Манас», 22-24 сентября 1994 г. Бишкек, 1996. С. 126-149. Время Мухаммеда Хайдара в кыргызском фольклоре // Матер. междунар. науч.-теоретич. конф., посв. известному ученому историку М.Х. Дулати (1499—1551). 13-15 марта 1997 г., г. Тараз. Тараз, 1998. С. 107-115. Гипотеза о применении носорогов в боях (Эпос «Манас» о некоторых вопросах военной организации кыргызов) // Мээрим. 1998. № 1. С. 20-23. Некоторые сведения об эпосе «Манас» в исследованиях Г.Н. Потанина // Этническая история тюркских народов Сибири и сопредельных территорий. Омск, 1998. С. 36-40. Кыргызы и народы Сибири: истоки этнической общности // Сибирь в панораме тысячелетий. Матер. междунар. симпоз. Т. 2. Новосибирск, 1998. С. 319-326. «Манас» о южносибирском периоде этнокультурной истории кыргызов // Древние культуры Центральной Азии и Санкт-Петербург. Материалы всероссийской научной конференции, посвящённой 70-летию со дня рождения Александра Даниловича Грача. СПб., 1998. Проблемы изучения этнографии кыргызов после распада Союза // III конгресс этнографов и антропологов России. Тез. докл. М., 1999. С. 44-45. Кыргызско-казахские этнокультурные связи в эпоху М.Х. Дулати (по материалам эпоса «Манас») // Проблемы древней и средневековой истории Казахстана. Алматы, 1999. С. 322-331. Мои встречи с Р.Г. Кузеевым // Вестн. Академии наук Республики Башкортостан. 1999. Т. 4. № 3. С. 30-32. Ош в письменных источниках домонгольской эпохи // История, культура и экономика Юга Кыргызстана. Матер. междунар. науч. конф. Т. 1. Ош, 2000. С. 14-21. Обычаи бытовой культуры // Ош-3000. Бишкек, 2000. С. 125-131. Раскопки городища Ооз-Дебе в 2000 г. // Ош и древности Южного Кыргызстана. Вып. 5. Бишкек, 2000. С. 33-49 (в соавт. с А. Асанкановым). Кыргызский шаман (бакшы) в 20-е годы XX века // Среднеазиатский этнографический сб. Вып. IV. Памяти В.Н. Басилова. М., 2001. С. 232-237. Религиозные верования кыргызов (с древнейших времен до настоящего времени) // Сб. матер. междунар. форума ЮНЕСКО «Культура и религия в Центральной Азии» (Кыргызстан, сентябрь, 1999). Париж, 2001. С. 106-113 (на англ. яз.). Древняя и средневековая история киргизов // Киргизы. Санжира, история и предания в 5-ти книгах. Бишкек, 2002. С. 183-207 (на кирг. яз.). О. Каратаев Орто Азия чөлкөмүн жана түрк дүйнөсүн изилдеген окумуштуулар. – Бишкек, 2015. Чоротегин Т.К. Алгы сөз: Этнограф Имел Молдобаевдин 75 жылдык мааракеси // Имел Молдобаев жана заманбап кыргыз этнографиясы: Кыргыздын көрүнүктүү этнографы жана манас таануучусу, тарых илимдеринин доктору, профессор Имел Бакиевич Молдобаевдин (15.02.1942 19.11.2005) 75 жылдыгына арналган эл аралык илимий-тажрыйбалык жыйын. Кыргыз Республикасынын Улуттук илимдер академиясы. Бишкек шаары, 18.04.2017. Баяндамалар жана макалалар жыйнагы / Жооптуу редактор Т.К.Чоротегин. – Бишкек: MaxPrint басмасы, 2017. – 220+ii б., сүрөт. –- Кыргыз Республикасынын Улуттук илимдер академиясы. Жусуп Баласагын атындагы КУУ. – И.Арабаев атындагы КМУга караштуу Манас таануу институту. “Кыргыз Тарых Коому” эл аралык коомдук бирикмеси. – Шинжаң “Манас” изилдөө борбору. “Мурас” фонду. - “Тарых жана мурас” түрмөгү. ISBN 978-9967-32-230-1. – Б. 3-7. О.Каратаев, С.Эралиев. Кыргыз этнографиясы боюнча сөздүк. Бишкек. "Бийиктик" - 2005-ж. ISBN 9967-13-159-4 Кыргыз тарыхы: энциклопедия. 2003-ж. Чоротегин Т.К., Молдокасымов К.С. Кыргыздардын жана Кыргызстандын кыскача тарыхы: (Байыркы замандан тартып бүгүнкү күнгө чейин): Тарыхты окуп үйрөнүүчүлөр үчүн. – Бишкек, 2000. – (Краткая история кыргызов и Кыргызстана. На кыргызском языке. Со-автор кандидат исторических наук Кыяс Молдокасымов). (ISBN 9967-00-001-5). – 160 стр. Урстанбеков Б.У., Чороев Т.К. Кыргыз тарыхы: Кыскача энциклопедиялык сөздүк. – Фрунзе: Кыргыз Совет Энциклопедиясынын Башкы редакциясы. 1990. – 288 бет. – (История Киргизии: Краткий энциклопедический словарь). – (В со-авторстве с кандидатом исторических наук, доцентом Бейше Урстанбековым). – (ISBN 5-89750-028-2) Асанов У.А., Жуманазарова А.З., Чоротегин Т.К. Кто есть кто в кыргызской науке: Краткий биобиблиогр. справочник докторов наук Кыргызстана / Под ред. акад. У.А.Асанова. — Бишкек: Гл. ред. Кыргызск. энциклопедии, 1997. — 672 с. |
I am particularly amused at how you cite İbrahim Kafesoğlu (1972; reprinted in 2014; in Turkish) and Mikhail Artamonov (1962; in Russian) as the leading sources, and then have Boswarth, Peacock et al contradict him. That said, Peacock/Boswarth finds Husayni/Ibn-al-Athir's rendition of the story, where Tuqaq opposes raiding of Islamic lands, as a later fabrication. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
I see that Tuqaq dies about 20 years earlier, than in the previous version. Interesting but how was this date arrived at? TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Certainly, it is unwise to take the sources at face value when they say that Seljuq was 100 years or older when he died, and use this as a basis to calculate that Duqäq must have been alive in the early tenth century.
Wtf is "Zuev Yu. A., Horse Tamgas from Vassal Princedoms (Translation of Chinese composition "Tanghuyao" of 8th–10th centuries), Kazakh SSR Academy of Sciences, Alma-Ata, I960, p. 133 (In Russian)"? We know little about the Oghuz Yabgu, much less the precise year of its formation! Will have to consult Agadzhanov. TrangaBellam ( talk) 09:02, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
The Persian epic Maliknameh (Book of Kings) mentions a warrior called Tuqaq who served a Khazar Khagan (ruler).
is nonsense. We do not have any extant copies of the text to be able to mount such a claim. This is a reasonable assumption based on texts that attest to deriving from Maliknameh.
TrangaBellam (
talk)
09:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
User TrangaBellam probably missed it, but this article was not nominated for GA and that he/she is not conducting a GA review. The user also forgets that just as any other "ordinary" editor, he/she is free to add, remove or modify this page at will, provided that such editing is done responsibly. I believe there is no other a C-level, low importance article in Wikipedia, whose every sentence is scrutinized and challenged at such bewildering scale, that it now bears a resemblance to obsession (either with this page or a single editor). Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire
Can you let me know (1) the precise page number and (2) particular sources from Tughril's court relied upon by Kafesoglu to make this claim? I intend to restore the sentence. Thanks, TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Some details about his life mostly [?] come from later written sources, composed particularly during the reign of his great-grandson, Seljuq sultan Tughril.
Tuqaq serv[ing] the Khazar Khagans as subaşy. Can you please point me to the source? Thanks, TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire
"It is in the Khazar state that we find our earliest reference to Seljuk and his father Duqaq. According to accounts composed for the courts of the first two Seljuk sultans, Tughrıl and Alp Arslan, the ancestors of the dynasty served the Khazar ruler as military commanders. This suggests that by the midtenth century Duqaq and Seljuk were active in the area to the west of the Aral Sea, near the Khazar capital of Itil on the Volga. [1]
The Yabghu appointed Seljuq as su-bashi, or war leader (Ibn Fadlan's sahib al-jaysh), but seems speedily to have considered him as a potential rival. [2]
Concurrently with the yabghu's family, however, another clan was adopting Islam: that of their subashi or military commander Seljuk, who gained the upper hand in Jand and freed its population from taxes paid to the yabghu. [3]
References
TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:29, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
If the definition of "full name" is first and last name, then far from being a "gem", the name provided was quite correct. I am assuming that "surnomme" is intended as "surnommé", which means "having the last name". There really are no other possible meanings. A surnom is a last or family name, and does not mean "sobriquet".
Elinruby (
talk)
19:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
@
Uanfala,
AirshipJungleman29,
Gusfriend, and
Robert McClenon: I am trying to stay out of the ANI complaint, but I am following it, and noted that something TB caustically calls a "gem" is in fact correct. I am bringing this to your attention here as I am not certain whether this is still being held against VC; if so it should be dismissed, I think, but I am still trying to follow some of the rest of the complaint. Bad translation from French is however a specialty of mine and there is absolutely no doubt that this charge is erroneous. I am not pinging VC and TB as they are both presumably still working from the page, whereas it seemed possible that you four, having read it once, might not be back. HtH
Elinruby (
talk)
19:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
User:Elinruby - I have no idea what ANI thread I am being pinged about. Are you trying to stay out of the conflict by pinging other editors who don't even know what it is? Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
surnom: nickname
— 1
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Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague ( talk · contribs) 05:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
* ""Tuqaq Temur Yalig" literally means "iron bow" or "with an iron bow" in old Turkic language." His full name is written above as "Duqaq"...Tuqaq should be the favored spelling, as it's the article's title.
*"Little is known about Tuqaq or his early activities as most of the details of his life are uncertain and come from later written or oral sources, composed particularly after the Battle of Dandanaqan." First half of the sentence should have at least one comma splicing it up.
*"...since arrow and bow were considered a sign of sovereignty in Oghuz culture. " Not sure of the contextual meaning of sovereignty here.
*"The Persian epic Maliqnameh (Book of Kings) mentions a warrior called Tuqaq who served a Khazar Khagan (ruler)." If he served the Khazars prior to the Oghuz, perhaps that chapter of his life is better suited for the "Origins" chapter?
*"...to join the Seljuq's tribe after it left Oghuz Yabgu for a new homeland in Transoxiana." Not sure if we need "the" before Seljuq here.
*As for his feud with the yabghu, that seems a pretty clear indicator that he himself was Muslim. Is that not the consensus?
*"After his death, his son, Seljuq, was named..." No need for the commas around "Seljuq"
*As for the "See also" section, I'd say anything that is hyperlinked within the prose doesn't need to be included.
QatarStarsLeague ( talk) 05:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
there is not misrepresentation- There is a t/p discussion, where you can argue. TrangaBellam ( talk) 10:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@ QatarStarsLeague and Visioncurve: - Please address the tags (which were added by me) and provide inline citations with quotes. TIA, TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
Dani, Ahmad (1992). History of Civilizations of Central Asiaconcerns
The dawn of civilization: Earliest times to 700 B.C.Unsurprisingly, p. 146 is from a chapter about
Food Producing Communities in Pakistan and Northern Indiaand has nothing about our subject.
collapseof Khazars, and Tuqaq's
alliance with the Oghuz Yabgu State? Please quote the line.
Peacock (2015), pp. 33–40concerns the fall of Ghaznavids before Seljuqs. Where does he note the legacy of
[Tuqaq's object[ion] to their policy of raiding other Turkic tribesas a mitigating factor in their successful challenge - quote the line?
In Muharram 428/November 1036, they [Seljuk leadership] sent an embassy [to Masʽud I] demanding greater prizes [...] The offer of keeping out other, less desirable groups of Türkmen was repeated.
he left the Oghuz Yabgu State [..] refused to pay taxes to the Oghuz Yabgu State..is not making any sense.
Jand was the heart of an Oghuz principality which was a vassal of Khwarazm, the northernmost Muslim province in Central Asia. Khwarazm, ruled by the Ma’munid dynasty, was itself theoretically subject to the Samanid state (204/819–390/999) that dominated Transoxiana and Khurasan.
Peacock (2013), pp. 27-33supporting,
It is known, however, that Tuqaq had a far-reaching feud with the ruler of the Oghuz Yabgu State when the latter assembled a formidable army against neighboring Muslims. This most probably means that at the latter stages of his life, Tuqaq adopted Islam.? Please quote the lines.
The elements regarding the Yabghu’s invasion of the Islamic lands are clearly a later addition from a common source.
[S]ometime in the intervening period, a variant text of the Maliknama must have come into circulation. The new text clearly aimed to associate the Seljuqs with Islam from the earliest times, even before they had converted, and so had a legitimatory purpose. It is tempting to suggest that the Seljuqs themselves were closely involved with the decision to rewrite their early history.
At some point, perhaps in the later eleventh or twelfth century, the Khazar connection was felt to be no longer relevant or perhaps even desirable, and a revised version of Seljuq origins was circulated. In this the Khazar ruler became simply the king of the Turks and the story of Duqaq’s attempt to prevent him attacking the Muslims was inserted. Finally, by the late twelfth century, any mention of the early history of the Seljuqs was banished from Seljuq historiography [...]
Tuqaq is said [...] to have quarreled with the Yabghu over the launching of raids on the Muslims of the Oxus- Syr Darya region – clearly a back projection of the later role, in the later 11th and the 12th centuries, of the Islamised Seljuqs as foes of the still pagan Oghuz of the steppes.
le role de Dukak comme defenseur de Musulmans n'est lui, sans doute, que la projection dans le passe de l'attitude adoptee plus tard par ses descendants
Laissant de cote les prolongements introduits par des genealogistes complaisants, nous trouvons comme ancetre des Seljukides, selon le Maliknameh, Dukak, surnomme Timur-Yaligh, arc de fer.
— Cahen, Claude (1949). "Le Malik-nameh et l'histoire des origines seljukides". Oriens. 2 (1): 31–65. ISSN 0078-6527.
Tuqaq's father's name was Kerequchi, who was either a popular local blacksmith or a master of tent-making (yurts).is unsourced and wrong (as it stands).
[..] the genealogy tracing Seljuq’s descent back to one Karakuchı Khwaja, a maker of tents for the Turkish Khans, clearly does not derive from Nıshapurı as Agadzhanov thought. It is almost certainly an Ilkhanid invention, perhaps designed to denigrate the prestige of the Seljuq family.
Early medieval sources state that Tuqaq was involved in the military of the Oghuz Yabgu State.
Googling for "Ethnocultural Relations of the Kyrgyz in the Middle Ages" leads to a single hit which is, unsurprisingly, our article. "Imel Moldabaev" (the author) gives zero results; "Moldabaev, Imel" returns our article. No hits in GBooks or GScholar. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
A short list of works by "an unknown" historian (Google translate them yourself):
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Молдобаев И.Б. "Манас" ‑ историко-культурный памятник кыргызов. – Бишкек: “Кыргызстан”, 1995. ‑ 311 бет. – ISBN 565500965X, 9785655009653. – Государственная дирекция “Манас‑1000”. – Национальная академия наук Кыргызской Республики. Институт истории. – Научно-пропагандистский деловой проект “Мурас”. О некоторых социальных терминах эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1975. С. 182-198. Об этнокультурных связях киргизского и казахского народов (по материалам эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш») // Этнические и историко-культурные связи тюркских народов СССР. Всесоюз. тюркологии, конф. 27-29 сент. 1976 г. Тез. докл. и сообщ. Алма-Ата, 1976. Эпос и народная медицина // Здоровье (Ден соолук). 1977. № 3. С. 8-9 (на кирг. яз.). Вопросы народной медицины киргизов в эпосе «Жаныш и Байыш» // Актуальные вопросы здравоохранения и здоровья населения. Сб. науч. трудов кафедры социальной гигиены и организации здравоохранения. Т. 122. Фрунзе, 1978. С. 126-133. Киргизский эпос как источник по истории одежды // Сов. этнография (далее — СЭ). 1979. № 2. С. 137-140. Тюрко-монгольский эпос как историко-этнографический материал (на примере киргизского эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш») // Джангар и проблемы эпического творчества тюрко-монгольских народов. Матер. Всесоюз. науч. конф. Элиста, 17-19 мая 1978 г. М, 1980. С. 286-290. Вклад В.В. Бартольда в использование фольклора киргизского народа как историко-этнографического источника // Вопросы истории, идеологии, философии, культуры народов Востока. Источниковедение, историография. Тез. конф. аспирантов и молодых научных сотрудников. М, 1981. Т. 1. С. 14-16. О географических терминах эпоса «Жаныш и Байыш» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1981. С. 167-184. В фокусе комплексного исследования. Рец. на кн.: Р.З. Кыдырбаев. Генезис эпоса «Манас». Фрунзе, 1980 // Литературный Киргизстан. 1982. № 2. С. 115-119. Башкирско-киргизские параллели в этнонимике эпоса «Манас» // Вопросы истории Южного Урала. Уфа, 1982. С. 83-92. Этнографические истоки одного мотива из эпоса киргизов и народов Центральной Азии // Проблемы хакасского фольклора. Абакан, 1982. С. 124-130. Об одном древнем инструменте народной медицины // СЭ. 1983. № 3. С. 97-99 (в соавт. с А.Д. Грач). Эпос «Жаныш и Байыш» как историко-этнографический источник. Фрунзе, 1983. Историко-культурная общность киргизов с народами Центральной Азии (по материалам эпоса «Манас») // Историко-культурные связи народов Центральной Азии. Улан-Удэ, 1983. С. 78-83. О некоторых древних медицинских инструментах киргизов (по данным эпоса «Манас»). // Культура и искусство Киргизии. Вып. 2. Тезисы докладов Всесоюзной научной конференции. 3-6 июня 1983 г. Л.: 1983. Историко-культурное значение героического эпоса «Эр Солтоной» // Советский Киргизстан: страницы истории и современность. Фрунзе, 1984. Об историко-этнографических терминах «Киргизско-русского словаря К.К. Юдахина» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1984. С. 85-94. К проблеме изучения этнокультурных связей киргизского и тувинского народов // Проблемы истории Тувы. Кызыл, 1984. С. 207-214. Узбекско-киргизские этнокультурные связи в свете эпоса «Манас» // Фольклор, литература и история Востока. Матер. III Всесоюз. тюркологич. конф. Ташкент, 1984. С. 403-406. Немеркнущее сказание: 100 лет первой публикации эпоса «Манас» // Учитель Киргизстана. 1985. 18 декабря. О гидрониме Ала-Кел (по материалам киргизских эпических произведений) // Ономастика Киргизии. Вып. 1. Фрунзе, 1985. Отражение этнических связей киргизов в эпосе «Манас». Фрунзе, 1985. Топонимы, связанные с именами персонажей эпоса «Манас» // Третьи научные чтения, посв. памяти академиков И.А. Батманова, К.К. Юдахина, Б.М. Юнусалиева. Тез. докл. и сообщ. Ош, 1985. С. 33. Исторические связи киргизов с народами Саяно-Алтая // Историко-культурные контакты народов алтайской языковой общности. Тез. докл. XXIX постоянной междунар. алтаистической конф. Вып. 1. История, литература, искусство. М., 1986. С. 45-47. Названия музыкальных инструментов в эпосе «Манас» // Вопросы киргизской терминологии. Фрунзе, 1986. С. 67-80. Некоторые проблемы историко-этнографического и лингвистического изучения эпоса «Манас» // Исследование по киргизскому языкознанию. Фрунзе, 1987. С. 106-114. Рерихи о киргизах // Ала-Тоо. 1987. № 12. С. 98-106. Изучение истории духовной культуры киргизского народа // Чокан Валиханов и современность. Сб. матер. Всесоюз. науч. конф., посв. 150-летию со дня рождения Ч.Ч. Валиханова. Алма-Ата, 1988. С. 158-164. Саяно-Алтайские истоки духовной культуры киргизского народа // Тюркология. Тез. докл. и сообщ. V Всесоюз. тюркологич. конф., 7-9 сентября 1988 г. Фрунзе, 1988. С. 45-47. Статьи в сборнике: Вопросы этнической истории киргизского народа / Отв. ред. О.К.Караев, И.Молдобаев. -- Фрунзе, 1989. 143 с. Эпос «Манас» как историко-этнографический источник // Сов. тюркология. 1989. № 3. С. 17-23. Эпос «Манас» как источник изучения духовной культуры киргизского народа. Фрунзе, 1989. Об этнических и культурных контактах киргизов с каракалпаками // Этническая история и традиционная культура народов Средней Азии и Казахстана. Нукус, 1989. С. 222-231. Фольклор киргизского народа как источник по этнической истории // Проблемы этногенеза и этнической истории народов Средней Азии и Казахстана. Вып. 3. Этнография. М., 1991. С. 103-112. Киргизско-сибирские фольклорные параллели и связи // Фольклор и современная культура. Якутск, 1991. С. 12-20. Устные рассказы о кыргызах у народов Сибири (к вопросу об этногенезе киргизов) // Этническая история народов Южной Сибири и Центральной Азии. Новосибирск, 1983. С. 292-297. Вопросы комплексного изучения эпоса «Манас» (изучение эпоса «Манас» в учебных заведениях) // Вопросы методики преподавания эпоса «Манас» в средней и высшей школе. Тез. докл. на республиканск. науч. конф. Бишкек, 1994. С. 27-36 (на кирг. яз.). Эпос «Манас» и его значение для изучения этнокультурных связей с башкортами и татарами // Манас—1000. Сб. докл. второй конф. татарской диаспоры «Татары в Кыргызстане» на тему «Вклад татарских ученых в исследование эпоса "Манас"». Бишкек, 1995. С. 16-29. 180 статей для двухтомной энциклопедии «Манас» // Манас. Энциклопедия. Т. 1-2. Бишкек, 1995 (на кирг. яз.). Происхождение этнической культуры кыргызов (III в. до н.э. — XV в. н.э.) // Кыргызы: Источники, история, этнография. Бишкек, 1996. С. 485-520. Опыт реконструкции этнической истории кыргызов по данным «Манаса» и других фольклорных произведений // Кыргызы: этногенетические и историко-культурные процессы в древности и средневековье в Центральной Азии. Матер, междунар. науч. конф., посв. 1000-летию эпоса «Манас», 22-24 сентября 1994 г. Бишкек, 1996. С. 126-149. Время Мухаммеда Хайдара в кыргызском фольклоре // Матер. междунар. науч.-теоретич. конф., посв. известному ученому историку М.Х. Дулати (1499—1551). 13-15 марта 1997 г., г. Тараз. Тараз, 1998. С. 107-115. Гипотеза о применении носорогов в боях (Эпос «Манас» о некоторых вопросах военной организации кыргызов) // Мээрим. 1998. № 1. С. 20-23. Некоторые сведения об эпосе «Манас» в исследованиях Г.Н. Потанина // Этническая история тюркских народов Сибири и сопредельных территорий. Омск, 1998. С. 36-40. Кыргызы и народы Сибири: истоки этнической общности // Сибирь в панораме тысячелетий. Матер. междунар. симпоз. Т. 2. Новосибирск, 1998. С. 319-326. «Манас» о южносибирском периоде этнокультурной истории кыргызов // Древние культуры Центральной Азии и Санкт-Петербург. Материалы всероссийской научной конференции, посвящённой 70-летию со дня рождения Александра Даниловича Грача. СПб., 1998. Проблемы изучения этнографии кыргызов после распада Союза // III конгресс этнографов и антропологов России. Тез. докл. М., 1999. С. 44-45. Кыргызско-казахские этнокультурные связи в эпоху М.Х. Дулати (по материалам эпоса «Манас») // Проблемы древней и средневековой истории Казахстана. Алматы, 1999. С. 322-331. Мои встречи с Р.Г. Кузеевым // Вестн. Академии наук Республики Башкортостан. 1999. Т. 4. № 3. С. 30-32. Ош в письменных источниках домонгольской эпохи // История, культура и экономика Юга Кыргызстана. Матер. междунар. науч. конф. Т. 1. Ош, 2000. С. 14-21. Обычаи бытовой культуры // Ош-3000. Бишкек, 2000. С. 125-131. Раскопки городища Ооз-Дебе в 2000 г. // Ош и древности Южного Кыргызстана. Вып. 5. Бишкек, 2000. С. 33-49 (в соавт. с А. Асанкановым). Кыргызский шаман (бакшы) в 20-е годы XX века // Среднеазиатский этнографический сб. Вып. IV. Памяти В.Н. Басилова. М., 2001. С. 232-237. Религиозные верования кыргызов (с древнейших времен до настоящего времени) // Сб. матер. междунар. форума ЮНЕСКО «Культура и религия в Центральной Азии» (Кыргызстан, сентябрь, 1999). Париж, 2001. С. 106-113 (на англ. яз.). Древняя и средневековая история киргизов // Киргизы. Санжира, история и предания в 5-ти книгах. Бишкек, 2002. С. 183-207 (на кирг. яз.). О. Каратаев Орто Азия чөлкөмүн жана түрк дүйнөсүн изилдеген окумуштуулар. – Бишкек, 2015. Чоротегин Т.К. Алгы сөз: Этнограф Имел Молдобаевдин 75 жылдык мааракеси // Имел Молдобаев жана заманбап кыргыз этнографиясы: Кыргыздын көрүнүктүү этнографы жана манас таануучусу, тарых илимдеринин доктору, профессор Имел Бакиевич Молдобаевдин (15.02.1942 19.11.2005) 75 жылдыгына арналган эл аралык илимий-тажрыйбалык жыйын. Кыргыз Республикасынын Улуттук илимдер академиясы. Бишкек шаары, 18.04.2017. Баяндамалар жана макалалар жыйнагы / Жооптуу редактор Т.К.Чоротегин. – Бишкек: MaxPrint басмасы, 2017. – 220+ii б., сүрөт. –- Кыргыз Республикасынын Улуттук илимдер академиясы. Жусуп Баласагын атындагы КУУ. – И.Арабаев атындагы КМУга караштуу Манас таануу институту. “Кыргыз Тарых Коому” эл аралык коомдук бирикмеси. – Шинжаң “Манас” изилдөө борбору. “Мурас” фонду. - “Тарых жана мурас” түрмөгү. ISBN 978-9967-32-230-1. – Б. 3-7. О.Каратаев, С.Эралиев. Кыргыз этнографиясы боюнча сөздүк. Бишкек. "Бийиктик" - 2005-ж. ISBN 9967-13-159-4 Кыргыз тарыхы: энциклопедия. 2003-ж. Чоротегин Т.К., Молдокасымов К.С. Кыргыздардын жана Кыргызстандын кыскача тарыхы: (Байыркы замандан тартып бүгүнкү күнгө чейин): Тарыхты окуп үйрөнүүчүлөр үчүн. – Бишкек, 2000. – (Краткая история кыргызов и Кыргызстана. На кыргызском языке. Со-автор кандидат исторических наук Кыяс Молдокасымов). (ISBN 9967-00-001-5). – 160 стр. Урстанбеков Б.У., Чороев Т.К. Кыргыз тарыхы: Кыскача энциклопедиялык сөздүк. – Фрунзе: Кыргыз Совет Энциклопедиясынын Башкы редакциясы. 1990. – 288 бет. – (История Киргизии: Краткий энциклопедический словарь). – (В со-авторстве с кандидатом исторических наук, доцентом Бейше Урстанбековым). – (ISBN 5-89750-028-2) Асанов У.А., Жуманазарова А.З., Чоротегин Т.К. Кто есть кто в кыргызской науке: Краткий биобиблиогр. справочник докторов наук Кыргызстана / Под ред. акад. У.А.Асанова. — Бишкек: Гл. ред. Кыргызск. энциклопедии, 1997. — 672 с. |
I am particularly amused at how you cite İbrahim Kafesoğlu (1972; reprinted in 2014; in Turkish) and Mikhail Artamonov (1962; in Russian) as the leading sources, and then have Boswarth, Peacock et al contradict him. That said, Peacock/Boswarth finds Husayni/Ibn-al-Athir's rendition of the story, where Tuqaq opposes raiding of Islamic lands, as a later fabrication. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
I see that Tuqaq dies about 20 years earlier, than in the previous version. Interesting but how was this date arrived at? TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:10, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Certainly, it is unwise to take the sources at face value when they say that Seljuq was 100 years or older when he died, and use this as a basis to calculate that Duqäq must have been alive in the early tenth century.
Wtf is "Zuev Yu. A., Horse Tamgas from Vassal Princedoms (Translation of Chinese composition "Tanghuyao" of 8th–10th centuries), Kazakh SSR Academy of Sciences, Alma-Ata, I960, p. 133 (In Russian)"? We know little about the Oghuz Yabgu, much less the precise year of its formation! Will have to consult Agadzhanov. TrangaBellam ( talk) 09:02, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
The Persian epic Maliknameh (Book of Kings) mentions a warrior called Tuqaq who served a Khazar Khagan (ruler).
is nonsense. We do not have any extant copies of the text to be able to mount such a claim. This is a reasonable assumption based on texts that attest to deriving from Maliknameh.
TrangaBellam (
talk)
09:19, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
User TrangaBellam probably missed it, but this article was not nominated for GA and that he/she is not conducting a GA review. The user also forgets that just as any other "ordinary" editor, he/she is free to add, remove or modify this page at will, provided that such editing is done responsibly. I believe there is no other a C-level, low importance article in Wikipedia, whose every sentence is scrutinized and challenged at such bewildering scale, that it now bears a resemblance to obsession (either with this page or a single editor). Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire
Can you let me know (1) the precise page number and (2) particular sources from Tughril's court relied upon by Kafesoglu to make this claim? I intend to restore the sentence. Thanks, TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:11, 21 December 2022 (UTC)Some details about his life mostly [?] come from later written sources, composed particularly during the reign of his great-grandson, Seljuq sultan Tughril.
Tuqaq serv[ing] the Khazar Khagans as subaşy. Can you please point me to the source? Thanks, TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Visioncurve Timendi causa est nescire
"It is in the Khazar state that we find our earliest reference to Seljuk and his father Duqaq. According to accounts composed for the courts of the first two Seljuk sultans, Tughrıl and Alp Arslan, the ancestors of the dynasty served the Khazar ruler as military commanders. This suggests that by the midtenth century Duqaq and Seljuk were active in the area to the west of the Aral Sea, near the Khazar capital of Itil on the Volga. [1]
The Yabghu appointed Seljuq as su-bashi, or war leader (Ibn Fadlan's sahib al-jaysh), but seems speedily to have considered him as a potential rival. [2]
Concurrently with the yabghu's family, however, another clan was adopting Islam: that of their subashi or military commander Seljuk, who gained the upper hand in Jand and freed its population from taxes paid to the yabghu. [3]
References
TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:29, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
If the definition of "full name" is first and last name, then far from being a "gem", the name provided was quite correct. I am assuming that "surnomme" is intended as "surnommé", which means "having the last name". There really are no other possible meanings. A surnom is a last or family name, and does not mean "sobriquet".
Elinruby (
talk)
19:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
@
Uanfala,
AirshipJungleman29,
Gusfriend, and
Robert McClenon: I am trying to stay out of the ANI complaint, but I am following it, and noted that something TB caustically calls a "gem" is in fact correct. I am bringing this to your attention here as I am not certain whether this is still being held against VC; if so it should be dismissed, I think, but I am still trying to follow some of the rest of the complaint. Bad translation from French is however a specialty of mine and there is absolutely no doubt that this charge is erroneous. I am not pinging VC and TB as they are both presumably still working from the page, whereas it seemed possible that you four, having read it once, might not be back. HtH
Elinruby (
talk)
19:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
User:Elinruby - I have no idea what ANI thread I am being pinged about. Are you trying to stay out of the conflict by pinging other editors who don't even know what it is? Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
surnom: nickname
— 1