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The section on non-operative transsexuals doesn't take into consideration non-op transgender people today. Is this section to distinguish between the common use of the word "transexual" or "transsexual" to describe an individual who is undergoing hormonal and/or surgical transition to their body?
Reasons people may choose not to or be forced not to operate might include: the results are undesirable - aesthetically or funcionally, they lack money, they lack pyschiatric approval required in many places, because of spiritual or moral beliefs about changing the body, their body is unable to withstand the risks or side-effects, and other reasons. This section could also be expanded to include non-hormone transgender people. Not having an operation or not taking hormones does not change the fact that a person was designated the wrong gender at birth. It is simply the path that some (many) transexual people take. I haven't updated this part of the article, but wanted to open to discussion before I work at it.
Korea is undergoing a transgender revolution, with many popular Korean transgender celebrities coming out. The first popular one was Harisu, later others such as Ryu Na In and Lady (four singers). This is the first Yahoo! group specifically dedicated to them http://groups.yahoo.com/group/korean_angels.
Due to the length of the previous debates, I'll put the most recent one now on top.
Somebody changed the bit about the number of gay and lesbian transgenders (after transitioning) from "many" to "probably about equal to that among the population as a whole". The later is a rather stange assumption, since every transgender group that does not discriminiate against gay or lesbian transgenders reports a very high number of gay or lesbian or bi- (or pan-)sexual transgenders. It is almost always at least one third of the group, but often more than half. That is clearly above the rate among the general population! (At least for now ;-)
I am not sure about published statistics (they are far to rare anyway), but counts by doctors who are also known not to discriminate against non-straight transgenders show only slightly lower numbers - and then it has to be taken into account that far too many transgenders would not dare to mention being not straigt to even the most liberal doctors.
Therefore, changed that passage back, and expanded a bit. Also added the bit about homosexuality - the word just does not work when talking about transgenders. – AlexR 22:25 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
I took this out pending clarification - a physical male who is transgendered might then be considered a female, and thus said female may be attracted to men, but not actually be gay, or said female could be a lesbian and thus appear to be a straight male. Also, is it so hard to start accrediting sources for such material? Susan Mason
'Transgender' seems to be used mostly as an umbrella term in the US and internationally. In the Netherlands (possibly in the rest of Europe too, I'm not sure about that) however, 'transgender' is used to refer to people who live as the opposite (to birth-) gender without SRS, by choice (ie. not due to circumstances). I think this is different from what is mentioned on the page already about 'between genders'. Kimiko 213.84.243.169 18:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Could someone (dis)confirm whether the term 'transgender' is also used this way in other European countries? ps. what about my other remark about the use of 'homosexual' above? Kimiko 213.84.243.169 08:50 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
How is this? Kimiko 12:25 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
This use of "transgender" for non-op transpeople is pretty outdated. Those people now call themselfes and are called transgenderists. If the old use is still current in the Netherlands, it is definitely the exception in Europe (and the rest of the world as far as I know it).
However, sometimes some transsexuals refer to non-op persons of any identification, or even post-op people who differ slightly from the transsexual "standard" as "transgender" or any number of terms, to distance themselfes from anything they see as "not properly transsexual". That is however the use of a small minority, and it is meant to be very offensive.
I'll rephrase this sentence in the article.
AlexR 12:38 18 May 2003 (UTC)
From Patsy (tg), Norway. "Cathegorization" of transgender persons is bound to be inaccurate. Trying to cathegorize transgender persons in the context of a dictionary, encyclopedia, etc., one shouldn't use the verb "is", but "may." When you attemt to reclarify the word 'transgender' by adding another, 'transgenderism,' it only makes things more confusing. (I would never understand it, despite a life-time of 'transgenderism.' [Is it a diagnosis, or a political ideology? :-)]) It won't work across cultures, not to speak of languages. An article on transgenderism must rely on good explanations, and some often used slang/terminology, not exact word definitions.
I could not tell at a quick glance, or by skimming, whether a "transgendered" person is someone who was born with both male and female sexual organs. So I don't know how to evaluate the picture shown at http://www.bakla.net.
The last 3 pictures look like a woman, who has a penis. Does this mean she was born a woman, and had surgery; or that he was born a man and somehow sprouted breasts; or was born with both sexual characteristics; or is it a trick photograph.
I like articles to be easy to understand, and if I'm in the wrong article to find out what I'm looking for, I'd like to be able to tell that without having to read the whole article.
-- Uncle Ed 22:17, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I am dizzy with the idea of freely editing the fine work previously put in on this article, and hope that I have only added, and not detracted, from the quality of the article. I am a transwoman in the United States, in the process of obtaining my Ph.D. in the field of "Law & Society." I am finishing my dissertation, which is on the adoption of transgender human resources policy in U.S. employers. This is scheduled to be completed next month, and you may see some of my work at http://jillweiss.blogspot.com . Please feel free to comment or to write to me at jtweissny@aol.com
Jill
69.229.44.225's edits had some good points, especially the issue of medical professionals pathologizing TG folks. However, there were a lot of typos, and the edits removed a lot of good content from the previous version. I hope the current version retains the best of both. Jiawen 08:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have just joined Wikipedia and am a ts woman in the UK.
Here the UK, the word Transgender seems to have a different connotation to that in the US in that it implies "choice" and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.
As a transsexual woman, I find that I have little in common with the latter three categories in that people i those categories all identify as male, but "choose" to spend a proportion of their time, but certainly not exclusively, mainly by dressing in women's clothes. Whilst drag queens are generally gay men parodying women, and cross dressers are generally getting a sexual thrill, transvestites can have these motives as well as gaining genuine emotional comfort from expressing themselves as women. Being a transsexual person however is not a "choice" thing, it is a necessity for survival.
There is more commonality between these 3 groups and historic Re-enactment societies than with transsexual women in that their primary identity is male, whereas transsexual women cannot cope being male and suffer from a genuine medical condition, Gender Dysphoria. It is arguable whether a cross dresser or a drag queen has gender dysphoria and of the majority of transvestites few ever feel the need to "move over" as I like to describe it.
In this page, that distinction is not being made and it means that transsexual people are bundled up into one group that is so disparate that the definition is offensive to women like me.
If generalities are valuable, then why do the homosexual element in LGBT need 3 letters to describe themselves L - lesbian women, G - gay men, B - bisexual everybodies.
My rights as a transsexual woman, or rather a woman-born-transsexual or as I choose to use, a "woman with a past that was not brought up as a girl" is seriously diluted by the word Transgender and at present, not sufficient weight is given to the offence that word has to transsexual men and women.
In basic terms whilst the word "Transgender" had resonance when it was first quoted, and it is popular amongst the gender congruent, it is a terribly sloppy word that is carelessly used by the ignorant to discriminate against transsexual people and used vicariously by drag queens/kings, cross dressers and TVs to play "me to" and medicalise their proclivities to gain advantage at our disadvantage. This is not to say that gender variance deserves fair treatment and freedom of expression and freedom to live without discrimination.
I am new to Wikipedia and hope that the Lead originator of this article can give me some guidance as to how I might contribute to the article-proper so as to help correct some of the present americanisation of the term Transgender. -- NikkiW 16:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear Alex. I am sorry that you felt affronted by my adding in the form of discussion, as opposed to direct editing, some viewd held not only by me but by many other women born transsexual in the UK. We are hardly uber anything, just sane women who are blessed with a modicum of intelligence and a strongly held point of view. Few UK transsexual women outside the clique of Press for Change subscribe to using the term transgender for themselves but as you correctly point out, the general population do group people like us in the same box, sad though it is.
Your inference that I am intolerent of other gender variant people is incorrect and as a lesbian woman neither is the sleight about civil partnerships, but I will set that aside, putting it down to an overzeaousness on both our parts to seek dissent for which I, for my part apologize. I have a few transmen friends and apart from their liking for testosterone (cannot understand it lol), our aetiology is all too familiar. I had no intention of marginalising transmen but in my opening paragraph to this dialogue, i DID say, "and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens."
That said, thank you for taking me to task about my discussion point and I took your views in mind as i re-read the article itself and on re-reading it appears to cover the subject fairly and as you rightly say, complies with the neutrality point of view for which Wikipedia is reknowned.-- NikkiW 20:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear alex in the definition you state "Transgender" does not imply choice any more than "transsexual" does. Just look at the definition, and tell me where the choice is supposed to be. Hint: If somebody does drag or cross-dresses just for the fun of it, without any gender-identity related motivation, it isn't transgender. (Of course, there are also quite a few "proper transsexual women" who did cross-dress for quite a while, trying to convince themselfes that they were just doing it for fun, so the line can in practice be hard to draw.) That also means that transgender people do not identify as plain "male" – oh, and BTW, thank you very much for ignoring transmen here and two times further down completely.
I afraid I consider your viewpoint/definition utterly incorrect. The orinal definition of transgender as used across europe and as the basis of its inclusion within LGBT was "people who challenge 'traditional' assumptions about gender".
It was designed to be a delibertly inclusive term recognising our history as part of the cycle of gender freedom movemnet from feminism to 'gay' back when 'gay' meant what we meant what we know as queer i.e. LGBT etc to the growing transgender movement. It was about recognising teh connection between transvestites, transexuals, drag queens. drag kings etc. It was about avoiding the intercine fights that split us apart. It was also about stopping in my community a bunch of typically white transexuals who had always had gender privalage on their side suddenly when faced with loss of said privaleges to scream victim, victim as they ran for a new set of gender privalages often in the form of hetreosexuality, sadly it appears in their shouting they have won. So as to your definition
Transgender as used since the early nineties has always been about choice and freedom, it includes transexual people simply because as a transexual woman I had no choice but to challenge 'traditional' assumption by transitioning, it also includes people who drag up for a lark. its an INCLUSIVE definition. you might like to look at the groups included in the LJ group transgender (which has over 900 active members!!) and how it defines transgender before assuming your assumtions are correct,
BTW I can cite all that i quote and when I have the time to learn to write and cite correctly I will come back and improve your work, its better than it was before however and I'm pleased abou that, but its still takes a surgical and very transexual viewpoint which is not what transgender is about. X_mass on LJ. btw I have been an out/loud transexual activist for nearly 25 years.
Please note that the division between transsexual and crossdressers has been a round a long time. At the same time there is a continuing division between transsexuals: those that believe that they are transsexual BEFORE their operation, but that their transsexual state is corrected by surgery, leaving them as simply women. The other side of the group identifies as transsexuals even after the GRS (gender reassignment surgery).
(I am brand new to wikipedia here, so I am looking for how I can help)
I am wondering just how diverse people "define" the transgender continuum.
Let me start off with my brief description of how I see a "person" defined. It is quite common for people talking about this subject address three or more "attributes" people have. Sex is defined as what genitals you have been given at birth. Sex as an attribute is not a binary designation, as evidenced by intersexed and hermaphrodite conditions. Sexual Preference is defined as what sex you favor for intercourse. It too is not a binary designation, and I can think of at least four common orientations: Male, Female, Bi, None. Gender is generally defined (I believe) as whether you believe yourself to be male or female. I personally believe that this definition is wrong, and that gender is a continuum. Then, I also usually add in addition a fourth attribute. Gender Roles are defined by me as roles you like playing. Again, I believe that a continuum here is needed as well. What I mean by Gender Role is what would traditionally be thought of as what men or women would traditionally do. For instance, this could include items like "hunting" or "cleaning" or "raising the family" or whatnot. These, among many other attributes, might make it possible to "define" a person.
Now, looking at traditional history, I will try to make up two People: one Male, and one Female. (Please keep in mind these definitions are for discussion purposes, I am not trying to enforce any stereotypes or such.
The Male would have a male sex, have a sexual preference for females, have a male gender, and prefer the gender roles like hunting. The Female would have a female sex, have a sexual preference for males, have a female gender, and prefer the gender roles like raising the family.
Now, if one were to take those definitions as the de-facto standard, then theoretically anyone who diverges from those definitions could be (again, in theory) considered gender queer, or transgendered. For instance, under this view, then even a gay man or woman would fall under this catagory as transgender. Of course, I believe that the opinion of the gay community would be that this is not the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong there)
So finally, I get to the subject of the topic here. Just how far does everyone out there imagine that the transgender catagory spreads?
(as background, I believe myself to be a transexual woman. I say this even though I do not (cross) dress, have not been to a psychologist yet, and do not take hormones of any type) Srinity 23:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Dr1819 16:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC) I removed references to "cross-dressing" due to the changing understanding and delineation among the medical community. By definition, transgender implies crossing genetic boundaries, and includes either feeling like, desiring to be, or dressing as a member of the opposite sex. Cross-dressers wear between one and a few items of clothing of the opposite sex, but do not appear as members of the opposite sex. By contrast, transvestitic behavior includes desires of either being or appearing as the opposite sex, along with external behavior to that end. Cross-dressers, however, may wear one or more articles of clothing typically relgated to the opposite sex (skirts or heels, for example), but exhibit the same behaviours and characteristics of their birth gender. Thus, there is no "trans"gender issue. Men wearing heels, while different in degree, is no different in substance than men wearing earrings. Furthermore, there's a vast movement with respect to men wearing clothing (including skirts) that have traditionally been worn by men for tens of thousands of years. One need not venture too far back in time to discover that the typical attire of most men included skirts, hosiery, blouses, and even heels (commonly worn for nearly 400 years by European aristocracy between 1500 and the late 1800s).
Equating "cross-dressing" with "transvestism" does a great injustice to both men and women who choose to wear clothing primarily relegated to members of the opposite sex, but who do so simply out of fashion preference, rather than sexual undertones or any desire to appear as, much less become, a member of the opposite sex.
I dont think the symbol is all the approprate personally. It wreaks of "queerness" , which just wierds out straight people, and that doesnt do anybody any good. I sure wouldnt put that on my car, lest people heft bricks through my windows when i am not around. I think a good symbol would be simple, striaght forward, subtle and not to terribly symbolic. ( it's not so much that people dont get the symbolism, it's that they dont want to, and its often offensive to people )
This entire article is really not encyclopedic at all. It's full of exclamation points and insufficient definitions. I cleaned up a lot, but it needs a lot more that I didn't feel like I was up to.
I removed this entire section because I didn't feel like it belonged in the article at all the way it was. It needs to be substantially edited to meet the Wikipedia standards of quality.
The way we included the subcategories of the mutually exclusive and partially exclusive categories, above, covers all inclusive categories.
Taking into account the total number of possible combinations listed above, we discover that the total possibilities of sexuality are between 4^4 and 4^5, or between 256 and 1,024, depending upon whether or not one has resolved their outward appearance with their desired sexual identity. Obviously, these categories are usually separate during the youth, of someone with transgender disphoria, but is for more frequently resolved during adulthood than it used to be.
The point is that human sexuality is far-ranging, and multi-modal. There are by no means just two categories, as has been previously believed, nor are there just four, as many still believe. Even psychiatrists and psychologists who've worked with the transgender community ascribe the number as between seven and twenty. Very few would ever consider there to be more than 100, much less 1,000!
When one sits down and does the math, however, it becomes clear that there are far more discrete categories involving human sexuality than the DSM-IV is aware, and this lack of awareness complicates matters endlessly for doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists dealing with the many issues of transgenderism. It behooves all of us to re-examine the resources we use when making decisions affecting the lives of others, whether we're in the role of a judge, a lawyer, a policeman/woman, a spouse, an employer, etc.
Provided people adhere to laws concerning non-gender-related common decency (no bared breasts, genetalia, bad language, etc.), behavior (no assaults, rape, theft, etc.), and safety (no speeding, running red lights, wearing appropriate safety gear on the job), one's genetic sexuality, physical sexuality, sexual preference, desired sexual identity, and ultimate outward appearance should have absolutely nothing to do with employability, retainability, or promotability, much less anything to do with the legal system.
We're all people. Every last one of us, regardless of the factors mentioned above. Human beings, possessing both intellect and emotions.
We have much to contribute, and all attempts to curb our contributions merely hurt society at large. Think about it. While you're at it, please stop trying to pigeonhole us into some "category." You can't even ID a tenth of them, much less keep them straight! And truth be told, a significant number of you would fall into one of the many categories that aren't "standard," if we could peer into your own private lives.
Someone please rewrite this entry to reflect reality, rather than some poor reflection of the "blind leading the blind's" DSM-IV, which reflects what was known about 70 years ago.
Thanks!
The concept of "transgender" is a very modern political construct located primarily in the United States, which has a known cultural bias towards extreme individualism. Somebody has to speak truth to power, even when that power self-identifies itself as "liberal."-- Naif 11:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
As a scholar and a professor (and a transgender person) I use this page a lot, and the grammar is driving me crazy. I've been resolving to try to help with that for a while, so here goes. Also, I added a section on "genderqueer," since that identity descriptor is used but not explained in the article. There's a lot more I would change if the article were mine, but the idea is to make it more accurate, not perfect. Anyway, -- Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 03:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Most transsexual people would not identify with the Symbol on the Article. When I had surgery, I lost the arrow and now only have a circle and a + symbol. Can an alternative please be used or is this a symbol that is in common usage in the USA for transgendered people? I would hate to think that this symbol found its way into common usage. It smacks of the dualgender ideas promulated by the UK Beaumont Society, a largely transvestite based organisation who up until relatively recently discriminated against transsexual people and who still work to another agenda. -- NikkiW 16:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
However, I strongly disagree with you that I discriminate against other people who are gender-variant. On the contrary I give support to all variants in my everyday life and stand up for all people faced with discrimination. Your assessment of me is wrong, sorry. Jumping to conclusions about me and my philosophy on how I treat all people based upon 4 paragraphs thereabouts is unfair and uncalled for. For a person who clearly contributes a great deal to Wikipedia, your agression in the above does you no favours, which is sad, because you could have so easily approached my discussion posting with something more reasoned and well mannered. The same objective would have been achieved without getting people's backs up. Perhaps it is the testosterone in you !(and I mean that jokingly !)Oh, and I never whine lol. -- NikkiW 20:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added to this page a version of the symbol which has been adopted by more trans persons than any other. This is not to say that all trans persons identify with this symbol, but the objections of some does not invalidate the symbol's resonance with many. Everyone is welcome to invent and promote symbology, and those which become most widely used will become associated with their predominant use. I am sorry if some find this objectionable. The symbol does not imply that every trans person has a penis, or any other such implications. It simply seeks to popularize the idea that neither sex nor gender are simple binaries, and we are all in this together, however we may differ. -- NancyN 20 March 2006
Because there are many unique issues related to transgender youths, should a section on this be included? Most noteably, Hormone replacement theropy before puberty results with mostly the desired secondary sexual charactoristics. LexieM 01:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A number of transgender organizations use the butterfly as a symbol (tgsf.org for instance), or a variation on the yin and yang symbol (ifge.org for instance). – Dlloyd 14:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps someone might be interested in
what I've done with transgender symbols.
--
ParaDox
14:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source on "In Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini instituted state procedures to help pay for sex-change operations in those who identified as transgender.", specifically the part about the state funding part? I see no mention in the Transsexuality in Iran article. Jaytan 10:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I really can't find any evidence to that statement. I'm checking google news and a couple major news sources and Human Rights watch's website, but I'm finding a lot of evidence to the contrary (which I expected, but wasn't entirely sure of). Anyway, a lot of the articles talk about Iran imprisoning and executing gays, transgenders, and transsexuals. If anything, I would bet that any such program would only be in place today to lure out "criminals" or, the program may have been abolished. However, I do not know. I have found no real evidence to either side. (
Kiyae
00:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC))
I found some evidence that Iran does provide for SRS, however, it's basically to encourage homosexuals to become heterosexual. So maybe you shouldn't hold them up as a beacon of hope just yet...( Kiyae 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC))
I listed the article yesterday on Wikipedia:Cleanup#April 8,2006 with the following comment: "I tried to bring some order into that article today, and removed lots of BS and whining, but I think I worked too much on it already, this one desperately needs somebody to go through it and turn this mess into a readable article." User:Metamagician3000 already was so kind as to do some improvements, but in my opinion there should be a few cuts as well - this article cannot replace all the other articles in the WP that deal with transgender issues, and it sure looks like it tries at the moment, making it a mess. – AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd to see the source for the following generalization:
"Although few studies have been done, transgender groups almost always report that their members are more likely to be attracted to those with the same gender identity, compared to the population as a whole. I.e., transwomen are more likely to be attracted to other women, and transmen are more likely to be attracted to other men."
My own impression of FTM's is that they're predominately attracted to lesbians. I myself am MTF, and would have to question the claim that "transwomen are more likely to be attracted to other women". In my experience, sexual orientation of MTF's varies a great deal depending on the social milieu. If I had to estimate, I'd call it about equal between heterosexuals and homosexuals, with a large number of bisexuals as well. I think there's reason to doubt the accuracy of this unattributed generalization. -- LishLash 00:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for butting in here, it's hardly my place, but I would recommend that when discussing a topic as sensitive as transgenderism, when the vocabulary to describe the situations is as limited as it is here, one should either a) Use whatever descriptive terms and phrases are available to best describe the entirety of the situation, regardless of grammar, with regard really only to others feelings and such. OR b) Use the same exact words and phrases throughout the discussion so as to clarify.
Personally, I would go with option "a", simply because the vocab for describing this topic is extremely limited. I would take that to mean go with using the prefix "non" until a better option arrives. Really, I would Italic textloveItalic text to see a grand discussion (probably through wikipedia) that would come out with an entire vocabulary to use in this kind of discussion. Of course, that has to come from the transgender/transsexual community-and from nowhere else. Regardless, I hope my advice steps on noone's toes, and that this entry grows to greatness.
(PS-don't beat on the "cissies" too much, I know we're incorrigible, but still, some of us are trying to learn, you have to teach us.) ( Kiyae 01:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC))
Hi, I'm your friendly cabal mediator :), just letting you know that LishLash has requested mediation here. If people involved in the dispute could put forward their perspective I hope we can get on with resolving this little dispute and building consensus :) - FrancisTyers 16:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I note, once again, that a page asserts that "all transsexuals are, by definition, transgender" despite at least a decade worth of transsexuals, primarily post-operative male-to-female transsexual women, asserting that "transgender" is not a proper umbrella term for "transsexual". I note, also, that while "Conflict" is briefly mentioned in the article, I seen no discussion of the "Conflict", nor any proper analysis of why the conflict exists, the nature of the conflict, or arguments about it. As such, this article has pretty serious POV issues since it glosses the issue "transgender" subsuming "transsexuality". I'd like to introduce some discussion of this conflict into the article, since it is a real part of transgender politics, but have this feeling that it would promptly be edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.12.83 ( talk • contribs) 15:59, 19 May 2006
I'm pretty sure this paragraph from the Monosexuality page needs revision from a trans perspective. What do you all think? It's not my text, don't worry!
DanB DanD 01:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, among other things, the text assume the transperson's partner is not trans themselves! It also seems unable to imagine that the transperson may be fully accepted in their "chosen" gender by their partner, and relegates them to some third or in-between gender. I'd delete everything from "This becomes important...". ntennis 01:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The article starts off with two definitions:
Both of which appear to be valid uses, but it seems a bit odd to just lump them together in two separate paragraphs, with no explanation. It seems to me that these are distinct (though with some overlap) usages of the term: e.g., a man who wears make-up and sometimes cross-dresses but identifies as a man would be transgender by the first definition, but not by the second. On the other hand, someone who identifies as a gender different to their "assigned gender" would be transgender by the second definition, regardless of their gender role. Shouldn't it be noted that there are these two definitions, rather than listing them with no explanation? Mdwh 14:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that I might point out is that Trangender and Transexual are used differently in different parts of the English speaking world. In the UK, Transgender is purely reserved for pre-operative individuals, whereas Transsexual is post operative. This, of course, bucks against the USA definitions! Fluffball70 01:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Crossdresser and Drag Kings = Transvestites in the UK.
Ref for Transexual in the UK UK Gender Recognition Act
Transsexual and Transgender definintions as per the UK Trade Union Congress
The subtle definitions are blurred, depending on where the peice of literature you are reading is from. But, most every day British people will switch between the dialects with ease. It's more to do with the legal language.
Fluffball70 14:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "transgender as in between" section as it was a direct mirror of the original definition of transgender, which is already present in the article. Mugaliens 19:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe a "citation needed" should exist for the following: "Contrary to common belief, the vast majority of cross-dressers, which comprises the vast majority of those who wear clothing of the opposite sex, are heterosexual [citation needed]."
This is a commonly known fact throughout the CD community. Countless online polls of CD-specific websites have confirmed that less than 10% of those who identify as crossdressers are other than heterosexual. Furthermore, historically crossdressing and transvestism have been seen as fairly synonomous. However, in recent years, most of those identify as a crossdresser may wear female clothing, such as heels, pants, or a shirt, but they identify and appear as male. They are not trying to "pass." They simply enjoy, for whatever reason, wearing items of clothing intended for females. Contrarily, most of those who identify as a transvestite do try to pass. Finally, some who might be labeled as a crossdresser reject that label entirely, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that heels were worn by men for half of the last five hundred years, the fact that men's fashion has, over the last thousand years, run the gamut of most everything (except for bras) currently found in the female side of the store, and the fact that fashion changes on a fairly continual basis. In the last ten years, fashion shows have seen many men in heels and far more "feminine" outfits than one might find on the street. Some men have taken notice, and when these fashions haven't appeared in the men's side of the store, they've simply shopped on the other side.
Thus, caution is advised before any labels of transvestism or crossdressing are applied in any given situation, as some rather compelling arguments can be presented which counter both labels, unless the behavior is to such an extreme that it's clear (nails, hair, boobs) that the individual is desiring to appear as a member of the opposite sex. Mugaliens 19:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
If that is all true (and yes, it is) why don't you add that to the article? Or, more specifically, to an article on tranvestites or cross dressers? Further, just because the CD community knows that most CDs are heterosexual doesn't mean a citation isn't needed. CDs aren't exactly an all pervasive group, and there are people out there who think all gays and transexuals/transgenders are transvestites, and all transvestites are gay. A citation would be beneficial.( Kiyae 17:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
216.221.96.202 added a strange vandalism [ here] and i fixed it. block, anyone? Teh tennisman 21:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I got into a running debate with someone who insisted that transgenderism was a mental illness, and a disorder. Despite Gender Identity Dysphoria being in the DSM-IV as a "disorder", I am not entirely sure that it should be one. Yeah, those people need advice, but is calling it a "disorder" doing that condition justice? And are transgenderists mentally ill? 204.52.215.107 15:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
and needs a serious clean up. As someone who knows very little about all this stuff I'm not really much clearer having read it. two suggestions to start with, please clearly define transman and transwoman, it's not immediately obvious which way the transition is taking place in each case (though I think I've worked it out now). Secondly there are whole lot of random sentences throughout that just don't fit. Most probably need more explanation but this needs to be placed properly in the article. It needs a simpler general overview with all the basic definitions at the start assuming the reader knows nothing and may have some of the usual prejudices (if there is such a thing?) becuase this seems to be the general overview and introduction page to a range of issues. this stuff is really important too, good luck. Pugsworth 12:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[tɝans dʒɛn dɝ] seems like a weird pronunciation - Iopq 11:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
By positioning the navigational “LGBT Click Box” ( Template:LGBT sidebar) at the top right of the article, the association of transgender people with „ LGB“ (disambiguation page, where the text “Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals” is linked to LGBT, LGB again “pocketing” transgender) is extremely overemphasized, falsely making the connection appear absolute, predominant and obligatory, where in fact (quote from LGBT#Controversy):
IMO the
Template:LGBT sidebar should be removed from the transgender article completely, but not wanting to initiate an edit-war, I'll be content for the duration of discussion with positioning the template less predominant below the transgender symbol. Transgender is the main-topic of the article, which essentially has nothing to do with any specific form of
sexual orientation, because transgender people can for example also be
heterosexual or even
asexual.
--
ParaDox
15:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My heart tells me to disagree with you, but my head says you're right. Very frequently, transsexuals and transgenders are not fully supported by the LGB community. There is a "trumping" or "poketing" effect when it comes to Homosexual and Transgender relationships. And yes, this article should emphasize transgenderism over the whole LGBT stuff. But again, my heart says to dsagree, quite simply because removing the flag is a very powerful symbolic gesture that shows you're not with us. As a gay cisman, I would hope I can support you, and you can support me. I would hope that even though our stations in life are different, that we can still connect on some level as partners, equals, whatever. Anyway, I just wanted to say that two of my friends came out as transsexuals in the past two years, and quite frankly, I would hate to not be able to stand under one unified banner with them and tell the whole bigoted world to go shove it. The rainbow isn't a symbol of homosexuality, it's a symbol of peace, love, compassion, and diversity. Whether you choose to keep the flag or not is up to you. But I for one will always leave my flag up, and you are always welcome to march under it with me. Whatever you choose, I hope that I can always march with you. (
Kiyae
04:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC))
My head and heart both say it should stay. We are stronger together than we are apart. This isn't a new idea.... my grand-dad was an old union carpenter and I heard that from a young age: we all do better when we all do better. So there is a measure of political utility today in fostering that togetherness. That doesn't mean that we are the same. Gay men and lesbians have a lot not in common. Bisexuals sometimes have heterosexual marriages. However that doesn't mean that there are not common grounds between all of the people in the LGBT community. In addition, there are a lot of people who ID as one letter at one time, others at another, or both simultaneously. I am transgender and gay, so I feel that I belong. However I also know people who are transgender and straight who were previously in the LGBT movement because they presented as lesbian or gay. They need a place still as well. And they sure as hell won't get it from the straight/cisgender community.
NickGorton
04:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the term "LGBT" is controversial, but I do not think the box should be taken down because of this. While it's true that sexual orientation and gender identity are seperate and transgender people can be "gay," "straight," "lesbian," "bisexual," or whatnot as far as their sexual orientation goes, the T and LGB should not be disconnected from each other because people confuse the two issues. For example, people may hate transgender people because they perceive them as gay. On the flipside, people may hate gay people because they perceive them as not living up to their gender's expectations. Understand what I'm saying? Transgender people may be of any sexual orientation, but the perception that they aren't is I think enough to keep it an issue in the same field.
Falsetto
01:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
@
Kiyae and
NickGorton, please excuse my late response, but I'm in en.Wikipedia very inconsistently (
de.Wikipedia gobbles up most of my time and energy already). I very much appreciate both of your contributions to this discussion, and will re“think” it all. In the mean time, quite likely permanently(?), the positioning of the navigational “LGBT Click Box” below the TG-Symbol seems to be a good compromise(?). --
ParaDox
11:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course, this is, first and foremost a TG page, not an LGBT page. And I'm very inconsistently on de.wikipedia though I do read it occasionally to check my german. (I'm nowhere near good enough to actually edit in there though.) ( Kiyae 07:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC))
the argument about trans inclusion in LGB is actually remarkably clear, both froma historical and current perspective, it is only since the late 1970's that some trans people have been excluded from LG. During the 1980's and early 1990's both B and T were excluded due to internal politics. From the mid 90's both B and T were increasingly brought back into the fold. The reason L and G excluded B and t was often for edsactly the same reason - that it would bring hetrosxual people into a homosexual space, an extension of this was the idea the recasting of history that homosexuals alone had fought for equality and that B and T were usurping the gains that L and G had made. Which was bit like the hollywood representation of the second world war which was apparently won by the americans. The reality is that trans has and remains an intrisic aspect of L and G culture. Whilst some Lesbians and gay men purely act str8, being gay in "bed and bar" or even complketly closeted - a word taken from trans culture btw, most lesbians and gay men use trans behaviour for example as the basis for example of gaydar (whish I could give a an accurate cite of this other than it being from a channel 4 program from the late 90's). Being a butch woman or femme/nellie/drag gay man is intrinsicly trans. The sisters of perpetual indulgence an LGB activist group was intrinsicly trans. I can point to numerous other examples where being visibly 'gay' is intrinsicly visibly 'transgender'. yes transgender people don't get the degree as support as they shoudl do from LGBT organisations, but it does seem to be a scale which starts with gay men getting the lions share and then lesbians getting most of whats left and bisexuals picking up teh crumbs leaving transgender people with none. This is a fault of LGBT organisations that need to rethink ther priorities not that LGBT shoudl exist. ( X-mass 01:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
Part of the problem is that people in the LGB spectrum identify themselves by stating their orientation wheras the T spectrum (and yes, it is a spectrum) is defined about not meeting gender expectations. It is important to note that the scientific (*cough*) study of LGBT issues was originally from a gender perspective. If you look at it their way (and as many of "the masses" see it), L and G behaviour is an alteration of normal social gender, in terms of "feminine (female gender) is attracted to masculine (male gender)" and "masculine is attracted to feminine".
The confusion between LGBT activities in history is continuously confusing - both lesbians and transgenders point to
Joan of ark; Gay males have stolen at times the
Berdache and
Gallae, who probably fit transgender stereotypes more accurately. As pointed out above Many people identify or have attributes of a variety of definitions through their life journey.
Of course, thanks to people like
Janice Raymond
^ (who still hasn't said sorry, btw.) our comunities have occasionally bee driven apart.
Although LGB have to fight to say it's about orientation, and T's have to fight to say it's not about orientation (on a personal note I'm sick of people asking me if I was just a really gay guy - at which time i usually point out my
same-sex marriage) it's really the same thing - we don't fit "normal" peoples ideas of "normal" men and women.
Sorry for the rant. No, the click-box should not be removed. Cheers!
Lauren
♫/
∆
13:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Placing the statement 'the t in lgbt is controversial' at the beginning of the article without further explanation, when its addresses further in the article makes a definite pov statement. Discussing it later in Contrast with "sexual orientation" places the issue in a better context. NickGorton 18:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
as of late january 2006 I can say that the current page is distinctly useful, it covers a range of the debate, seems to be relativly clear and understandable. I know it may move to another state in due course but I just wanted to note to all contributors how much I appreciate your help, to get it to this point ( X-mass 01:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
Does anyone have the book
Some searching on Google says that Virginia coined the term, but I find no solid references except that she probably claims that in the above book. Can someone provide a citation? – SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 04:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Transgender is currently the LGBT collaboration of the month, and is being peer reviewed to pinpoint possible improvements for editors to implement. You can find it here Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.secondtype.com - Worth adding? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.149.16.69 ( talk • contribs) 10:04, 11 April 2007
I just put it out of that category. This mistake is really everywhere. I put it into an “Other flags” category - for the moment.
Comment I used there was: /* Sexual orientation flags */ This is definetely wrong. Don't sort this flag under "Sexual orientation". Transgender neither implies any sexual orientation nor is it a phenomenon on that field.)
-- 84.143.136.81 14:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The "external links cleanup tag" has been placed on the Transgender article. WP:EL recommends consensus, so I am adding this section on the talk page. My pov on the matter is given below: please share your input before I carry out the changes outlined. Editwikipediausername 03:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The current external links fall into four categories as follows:
- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editwikipediausername ( talk • contribs)
I do not know if consensus exists (see above) concerning advocacy/activism sites being linked to, so I will not disturb them for the time being (with one exception: see below). However, I think I can say from the above that a consensus does exist about the support groups and biography sites: namely, delete them and replace with a link to "Transgender" at DMOZ. Similarly, I think I can say that a consensus does exist about information sites: namely, keep them. I will therefore carry out those changes, and insert the comment as stated by Alison above. A site-by-site analysis is given below. Editwikipediausername 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Site | Analysis | Action |
---|---|---|
European transgender network | EU-based advocacy site | Keep |
FTM Australia | Australia-based information site | Keep |
Hudson's FTM Resource Guide | USA-based information site | Keep |
Gender Identity Support Group | Australia-based support site | Delete as per consensus |
NCTE National Center for Transgender Equality | USA-based advocacy site. Already linked to under internal links and so can be deleted on grounds of redundancy. | Delete on grounds of redundancy |
Seahorse | Australia-based support site | Delete as per consensus |
Susanna Valenti: a Transgender Pioneer | Biography | Delete as per consensus |
Transgender Law Center | USA-based multiple-purpose site. Already linked to under internal links and so can be deleted on grounds of redundancy. | Delete on grounds of redundancy |
Trans Melbourne Gender Project | Australia-based activism site. Unsure about this one. Has a legitimate claim to be on this page but (as others have noted) there is a preponderance of Melbourne sites. | Weak Delete on grounds that a Victoria site is already listed |
TransGender Victoria | Australia-based advocacy site. | Keep |
The Urban TransMan | Dead link | Delete on grounds of deadness |
Second Type Woman | US-based information site | Keep |
(Rethinking) Gender | Newsweek (May 21, 2007 issue) transgender article | Keep |
Editwikipediausername 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The external links category has been cleaned up as per part 2 above. More cleanup is possible (for example, all references to advocacy groups can be moved to List of transgender-rights organizations) but I don't know if it is desirable to do so. I therefore propose that the "external links cleanup tag" be removed on the grounds that it has been sufficiently cleaned. If anybody has an alternate plan or feels that there is more cleanup required, please share your input below before I remove the tag. Regards, Editwikipediausername 00:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
No objections have been raised, so I shall remove the tag. Editwikipediausername 02:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add a new external link. I am a member of a group based in Cincinnati which focuses on trans stuff and our site has a large amount of information about various topics related to genderqueer issues including information on GID, gender identity, community, and various resources. -thanks
[ http://www.uc.edu/groups/GenderBloc GenderBloc] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jakku Ari ( talk • contribs) 02:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Removed old talk to /Archive_01. Includes all unsigned comments and of course YATVT (Yet another Transgender versus Transsexual) debate AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The very last paragraph under this heading is a bit argumentative. I didn't want to delete it myself bu felt it should be addressed. The part I'm getting at is the whole "biological determinism" and everything after the use of that phrase. It's an obvious bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kiyae ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is load of random comments which have no references and cannot be verifiable.
A transvestite is someone who cross-dresses, but transvestic fetishism is a medical term for someone with a fetish for cross-dressing. To prevent confusion, the term "transvestite" has been rejected in favor of "cross-dresser.
Transvestic fetishism has been considered a derogatory term, as it implies a hierarchy in which the sexual element of transgender behavior is of low social value.
It is often difficult to distinguish between a fetish for cross-dressing, and transgender behaviour that includes sexual play.''
Who said all this? Please... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MalikaTG ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned it up. I deleted the last two lines and re-wrote the first.
Someone should check it to see whether it's okay now or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NatalyaAF ( talk • contribs) 08:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Does "transgender" mean that a women is born with a penis, and has breasts? Or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.251.174.137 ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Why would someone who is friendly to the gay community blandly state that Ayatollah Khomeini gave his approval to transgender surgery with out pointing out the forced gender reassignment surgery imposed on gay men in that country? Are transgenders truly friendly to rest of the LGBT community or are you just biding your time to make us all trannies or be put to death? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist ( talk • contribs).
Why should criticism of transgender rationale, which is clearly designed to put clear blue water between themselves and gay people, be disallowed and removed? OK, lets all just say nice things about hormone treatments and genital surgery then you will all be happy. Is there any other example of pschiatrists and pschologists advocating radical organ removal surgery to deal with a pschological issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist ( talk • contribs) 21:29, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Once again, my properly sourced comments were removed because they dared to expose the hypocritical and homophobic rationale that is increasingly to be found in academic transgender theory. Catherine Crouch's film served as timely warning of the current situation in Iran and what could happen here. Only acceptance of transgender rationale is accepted as 'neutral' or 'sourced' material and suitable for the public to read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 22:59, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Again, Alison or Alice, why would someone writing on this board that was friendly to gay people refer positively to Ayatollah Khomeint approval of the use of gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging its misuse and homophobic aspect? You only want positive aspects of transgenderism mentioned, without any criticism. It is clear that patriarchal society does favor transgenderism over, or as a solution to, homosexuality; this is why transgendered people are allowed to get married whereas gay couples are not. The article on crossdressers you mentioned sugests most crossdresser identified as heterosexual, not that they are heterosexual; there is a big difference. Men, even when crossdressed when having sex with another man, they are in the category of men who have sex with men and therefore are not heterosexual. It is possible they crossdress for purposes other than having sex with other men of course, but in my experience, this is most common aim of doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs)
I agree, it is difficult to quantify the extent to which men that crossdress (and I would include in that category all non-full timers, including the currently accepted separate categories of drag queen, female impersonator, transvestite and cd)are having sex with other men or whether the dressing is primarily intended to attract sex partners. Nevertheless as someone with many years personal experience as a man who has identified at different periods as straighht, bi gay and trans I know enough about the subject to make educated and well-informed comment; one problem here is that there is insufficient published critical studies to cite that cast doubt or question the curent edifice of mutually exclusive categories mentioned above that are indeed designed to create a formalized separation og gay people and trans people; a separation which in my opinion is greatly exagerrated and possibly largely fictitious. In my opinion this edifice has been developed to enable mtf trans people to be untainted by homosexuality in order to be more successful at attracting heterosexual identifying male sex partners. At the head of this discussion section is a question from 'just wondering'; read that question and you will see the consequences of the idea that there exists a group of people who are females with functioning male sex organs; there are bi-curious horny young men who are clearly taken in by this nonsense and it is leading to damage to the LGBT movement and our relationship to mainstream society. Let me hear it from you Alice or Alice, if you are serious and socially responsible academics, that no such group of people exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 16:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Hi Puellanivis; I find it interesting that once you had enjoyed sex with boys while 'dressed' your other self, the male 'hetero' one also realised he was no longer so interested in girls; and yet you continued to need to dress to have sex with boys; why is this? I ask an honest question because it is this aspect that gay men find suspicious, as if you are trying to squeeze homosexuality into a hetero box. Was your possibly objection to sex with boys as a boy yourself a result of homophobia or perhaps that you could get hotter straighter guys when a girl? I have met some transwomen who have admitted to me that the original decisions were influenced by the desire to avoid the stigma of being gay, and that in their culture, the correct response to same-sex attraction was to transform into a girl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 21:04, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
That's right Alison, as soon as we're in danger of getting to the heart of the issue, all discussion must be stopped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I find it most a most interesting coincidence that R jay72 began posting the day Greghist stopped. By another astonishing coincidence, their edit histories bear some remarkable similarities. Cheers, Kasreyn 03:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
So that's it: gotta go. I have 2hrs 54mins before my unlimited Internet access expires, and my usefulness to Wikipedia drops dramatically. I have been on Wikipedia for approx 6 months, and in that time I have worked on this article, the 2007 United Kingdom floods, the 2007 South Asian floods, the European Parliament election, 2004 and Template:Location map Scotland - if nothing else, it's an eclectic mix. It hasn't been fun (there are only so many pictures of mothers scrabbling through the mud of their wrecked Bangladeshi village you can see before wanting to throw up), but it has been rewarding. God alone knows how many cites I've added, but it's gotta be in the 100's. I have attempted to do my best by this article, and I have followed a policy of quoting like crazy in the citations so that those who cannot access the sites can at least see I wasn't lying: if nothing else, it deters vandalism. I have 7-10 days of limited Internet access left, but after that it'll take me six-12 months before I can get back to speed and it won't be easy (JSTOR costs!), but I will try. If/when I return, I will try to bring an article up to FA status, or at least GA (FA is hard). I would like to try with this one (it has to have hit B-class by now), if you'll permit me - if nothing else, it has to be better than wading through a table of EU election results which somebody put "this table is derived from official figures" without saying which official figures, and how they are derived (there were 25 countries in the EU in 2004, the archive results are in Spanish, and I no hablas espanol. Ouch!)
2hrs 29 mins left, so better cut this short. I was working on a fine valediction (you'd have liked it: it had puns!), but nahhh, short is good. So I'll leave you with this.
Benjiboi, if you switch between the plural ("drag artists") and the singular ("is") in the same sentenceone more time, I will go back in time and prevent your grandparents from meeting.
See ya in 2008, Anameofmyveryown 06:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I notice that a lot of images have added to this article recently – all of them photographs from LGBT pride parades. While this was certainly in good intentions, I think it would be better to have a more diverse selection of images, and also in positions where each image is relevant to the adjacent text. -- krimpet ⟲ 05:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that in 'Identities', the listing of the categories is uncited. This leaves me wondering: Is this a scientifical statement at all? Who else, besides the transgender organisations, which are hardly unbiased sources, supports the view that all these categories belong to transgender? 89.182.72.73 21:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Having cross-dressed once, for whatever reason, doesn't make a person a cross dresser. This should be self-evident, and an article in "The International Journal of Transgenderism" supports this view: "Another group that may be excluded by the BVD test can be those female impersonators who look upon dressing as solely connected to their livelihood, actors undertaking roles, individual males and females enjoying a masquerade, and so on. These individuals are cross dressing but are not cross dressers." http://www.symposion.com/ijt/gilbert/gilbert.htm What's needed here is a new article on Cross-Dressers that gives a clear and scientific definition, mirroring the predominant scientific view. Also, the overly broad definition that is now given under 'Identities' here obfuscates thew issue and should be revised. 89.182.0.102 10:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
We already cover this distinction well, I think, in the article cross-dressing which you removed the link to:
The term cross-dressing denotes an action or a behaviour without attributing or proposing causes for that behaviour. Some people automatically connect cross-dressing behaviour to transgender identity or sexual, fetishist, and homosexual behaviour, but the term cross-dressing itself does not imply any motives. (See "Equal clothing rights" below.) However, referring to a person as a cross-dresser suggests that their cross-dressing behaviour is habitual and may be taken to mean that the person identifies as transgendered. The term cross-dresser should therefore be used with care to avoid causing misunderstanding or offence.
Yes, I agree the section here needs improving. Mdwh 10:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This article claims there are countless historical examples of transgendered people yet provides no reference, should the claim be removed without proof or else provide a reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.218.228.176 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
When I came upon this article, the following image was at the very top right of the page:
Is this really the best place for this particular image? Is a photo of a person in a miniskirt appropriately representative of all aspects of Transgender? I don't think so. I have moved it down, to the section about transgender and sexual orientation, since this person is at a Pride parade. I can't think of what image would be best, if any, for the lede. Suggestions? Thoughts? Photouploaded ( talk) 14:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. I agree with the change to the less sexualized photo as the lede. Although David Shankbone's photo is great it does show a societal tendency to youthfulness and sexualize which is certainly not universal and not universal to trans people. For anyone else looking to contribute images please consider our international audiences and see if we can find images that reach beyond our current imaged demographics. I also concur that having one discussion here is preferable when the issues are pretty much the same to both articles in question. Benjiboi 20:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
THANK YOU for changing the leading image! I don't know if I ever said anything, but I've always hated it. As a trans person who has had (at least) one friend come to this page to learn more about me, it's nice to be more positively represented. -- Ephilei ( talk) 23:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Love the new image, the old one always bothered me. – random trans user, jan 20, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.176.53 ( talk) 20:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have thought about this a little more and I notice another disconcerting things about the choice and placement of photos in the article. For one thing the former supposedly sexualized lead image was moved to the section regarding sexual orientation. :-? I also note another problem with either or both images as a lead Image. They are all of transwomen. An article on "transgender" should also cover and represent transmen. The text is also written from the perspective and concerns of many transwomen and not really those of transmen. Like so many articles on TS TG topics this one would benefit from at least a restructuring if not a total re write. For now what I will do is find a WP acceptable image of a transman and add it to this article. Then I will contemplate such a rewriting of the article so as to incorporate transmen in a more natural way. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 18:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is very much written without a neutral point of view. First example, the section headed as "Criticism" implies physical attacks (i.e. similar to "gay bashing"), lack of understanding, and bias. It goes on to attack mental health professionals, stating that people who identify themselves as transgendered are often educating mental health professionals. The bias indicates that the medical and health care community "has it wrong" and that the only accepted point of view is that "transgendered" is natural and has only natural cause. If anything, the situation is far more complex, with there being multiple causes and the descriptions of the health care profession being absolutely clueless is biased, wrong, and harmful in that it will dissuade people from counseling and professional assistance in favor of community. This article packs a lot of information, but needs to be taken back a step and have the issue analyzed from an neutral point of view, point out the current state of (varying) opinion of the scientific community profession, and what the theorized causes are in total. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.144.99 ( talk) 12:18, February 8, 2008
I agree that the section is biased. I've made some adjustments - check them out! -- Ephilei ( talk) 18:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've rewritten the whole section. -- Ephilei ( talk) 21:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
"The medical establishment and trans community thoroughly rejects these ideas." What "medical establishment"? No ref? Removed. The statement then becomes "The trans community thoroughly rejects these ideas." Well no shit, Sherlock. Following the mental illness hypothesis, how often do you think people with delusions admit that they are such? — NRen2k5( TALK), 16:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, from the NPOV page:
"Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth doesn't mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority."
Now I recognize that a site specifically about a minority will have more focus on that minorities viewpoints, my specific problem is with the criticisms section of this page. Significantly more text is deveoted to rebuttals to the criticisms than to the criticisms themselves, exposing the undercurrent of bias from the author.
Something needs done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.86.139 ( talk) 05:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
"The majority view of the medical community is that transgenderism, and transsexualism are quite rare, but normal, and not caused by an individual's personal choice." I would like to see this sourced. In the meantime, the propnouns are very confusing. Can we agree for the article to use the pronoun appropriate for the person's chromosomal gender. I was so lost trying to figure out who was male and who was female while perusing the article that I gave up. For the sake of an encyclopedia article the objective reality of the person's gender should dictate the gender specific pronouns rather than the individuals subjective, and scientifically innacurate, though most likely constitutionally protected view. Basejumper2 ( talk) 22:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The site in question is registered to one Anne McLoughlin in Dublin, IE. ( Proof) — NRen2k5( TALK), 04:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a need to present an over-view of the transition process. People who live or work with someone who is transitioning should be able to see what the process comprises, where the transperson is in the process and what is still to come.
Various aspects would need to be represented in more than one time-map. Aspects aimed at a particular audience or for a particular purpose could be grouped on one time-map. Topics for time-maps could be: Self-discovery and self-acceptance, Coming-out at work, Transitioning with family, etc. Aspects would include: Emotional issues, relationships, hormonal issues, physical and surgical issues, medical issues, legal issues, etc.
Please comment and suggest. TranWen ( talk) 06:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not an expert in this field and came to the article seeking only a clear explanation of the difference between 'transgender' and 'transsexual.' With all due respect, I did not find it here.
In fact, this is perhaps one of the most opaque pieces of writing I've yet encountered in the Wikipedia (blessed be its name); it would appear that the authors are furthering some argument the general reader would be unfamiliar with. No doubt there is a place for this subtle & nuanced discussion, but I would suggest that this is not it. Could someone knowledgeable in the field of transgender please distinguish the two terms in plain English? It would be greatly appreciated. -- OldCommentator ( talk) 02:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Transsexual is the more precisely defined term that researchers and clinicians use to describe people who undergo or want to undergo sex reassignment. Transgender has not precise definition; it is used by people who are persuing social and civil rights to refer broadly to people who do not conform to simple-male and simple-female. In some circumstances, these purposes align with each other, in some circumstances they do not, causing friction between researchers (who use precise terms) and activists (who sometimes find medical terms pathologizing). I hope that is a help.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
02:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This may be a question that's best posted elsewhere, but here goes.
Is it really appropriate to describe third genders that exist in non-Western cultures as instances of transgender? If, for example, Indian culture contains three genders (male, female, and hjira), then a hjira is living in her culturally ascribed gender, one which doesn't map cleanly onto Western conceptions of "male" or "female". It would seem that, logically, to live in a culturally established third gender is basically the antithesis of transgender, as the behaviour is no transgression of gender roles within the relevant cultural context, but rather a full enactment of them.
I guess what I'm wondering is whether labelling non-Western cultures' third genders as "transgender" represents an inappropriate imposition of Western frames of reference on a cultural phenomenon that can only be correctly understood within a frame of reference derived from the relevant cultural context. If so, then to describe third genders as expressions of transgender may darken understanding of both the third gender under consideration and third genders in general, and may be as much a gross and simplistic distortion as to describe third genders (or for that matter transgender) as expressions of homosexuality. And it would seem to me that darkening and distortion of understanding would be something an encyclopedia would like to avoid.
Don't want no OR here; I'm certain that there is good, sourceable writing out there around this subject. It just seems to me a question worth raising. -- 7Kim ( talk) 16:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, this isn't something I'd go down to the mat for, but it's pretty typical to give basic identifying information about a person that is relevant to a topic. There exist people who say some hateful things about transgendered folks, and the statement that Lawrence makes can be mistaken as one when it's reduced to a single-sentence summary. Indicating that Lawrence is openly trans (in my mind, anyway) keeps the reader from getting the wrong idea.
As I said, I wouldn't go to the mat for this, so if you revert it, I'll leave it alone, but I do think that the page is better when it includes her trans status as part of her ID.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to have a criticism section included in an article about an identity category? I've just visited a number of other pages that concern themselves with various identity categories and found no criticism sections on those. The closest I found was a section on homophobia in the homosexuality article--which I feel has entirely different implications than a criticism section. Likewise, a section on transphobia seems appropriate to me. As it stands, my opinion is that the criticism section actually constitutes transphobia...
I apologize if this issue has already been discussed--I tried perusing the archives on the talk page and did not find anything about this. Schn0529 ( talk) 18:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article's
"criticism" or "controversy" section may compromise the article's
neutrality. |
This similarity between transsexuality and Body Integrity Identity Disorder (or apotemnophilia as BIID might also be understood as) has been inserted into the main text of transexuality twice now [9] [10] without an edit comment. The second time it was given a citation... exactly the same citation it already had in the criticism section. I understand that BIID people might see the similarity but most people don't even know that BIID even exists, even aside from some people thinking it's related to transsexuality. It's controversial. Hence, if it's even in the article it should be covered in the criticism secion and be treated with an eye towards NPOV. It shouldn't be the first thing mentioned in the transsexuality section about surgical issues, without even mentioning the controversial nature of claim that BIID is relevant. -SemiAnonymous 02:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
— MarionTheLibrarian ( talk) 02:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
— MarionTheLibrarian ( talk) 02:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
From my point of view, there are two content issues here: One is whether the Anne Lawrence article belongs appropriately in the controversy section, and the other is whether "sexual obsession" is an appropriate title to the section. I believe that "sexual obsession" instead should be "paraphilia." Neither Lawrence nor anyone else has referred to autogynephilia as a sexual obsession ("sexual obsession" is used only by opponents of autogynephilia to try to reduce it to a characature of what it actually says). Second, I do not believe that Lawrence' article belongs in the controversy section. For whatever reason, the controversy section is yet another re-hash of the same Bailey-bashing as on so many other trans-related article on WP, and the Lawrence article has nothing to do with Bailey's book. Including it there is not good editing, it's merely a tarring of all unpopular ideas into a single bin without further reflection.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
18:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
This entire section needs to be focused and rewritten.
...trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]
it is totally confusing. Thanks. NPOV-V-NOR 22:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering about this edit where a citation was just cut out dropped without discussion. Well, the edit comment said that there was a discussion on Talk:Homosexual transsexual that justified the edit but (1) the wikipedia jargon there was opaque to me and (2) it seems like individual pages shouldn't be setting policy for all the other pages without even talking about it where a different set of editors are operating. Like that article is about a theoretical construct from a controversial academic theory rather than like actual people... so maybe the standards of acceptability should be different there? Like that discussion worked under the assumption that if it wasn't peer reviewed then it wasn't "allowed in". Which makes sense for a write-up of academic stuff... but like... not really for a polical term designed to capture a variety of personal identities and bind them into a functioning political community. If something was published somewhere that the public can access and you're claiming "this was publicly stated" how is it not valid to say that it was publicly stated and then cite the statement as evidence? Am I missing something? Basically... whuuh?? My inclination is to put it back because it's appropriate for this article, but I'll hold off if the concensus goes against me.
-SemiAnonymous 10:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The discussion on
homosexual transsexual pertained to whether Wyndzen's comments met WP:RS and could therefore be used as a reference in WP. Except for one person (user:Jokestress), the consensus was that Wyndzen's comments did not. SemiAnonymous is entirely correct that different pages can come to different conclusions, but because the people who follow the
transgender page are largely the same people as those who edit the
homosexual transsexual page, there didn't (to me) seem to be a reason to repeat the discussion. Nonetheless, if you'd like to re-visit the decision specifically for this page, you certainly have that right.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
14:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem is not what Wyndzen said, but where she said it. At least, WP policy is neutral regarding the content of Wyndzen's claims, but requires us to limit inclusion to claims made in outlets that undergo fact-checking, such as peer-reviewed journals in the case of science. Wynzden chose (for whatever reasons) not to use such an outlet.
Wyndzen's comments are largely an expression of her opinion, which is perfectly legitimate for her to do. An opinion that is notable enough to be encyclopedic, however, must at least have been made by someone with some demonstrable expertise in the area. There is no evidence that Wyndzen is such a someone...in fact, she essentially says in her quote that she is not an expert on the research topic.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
01:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is very one sided. It does not reflect the diversity of opinions, and when it presents any criticism of modern gender philosophy it immediately discounts it and dismisses it. I think it is comprimising the integrity of Wikipedia and needs an overhaul. The criticism section should be integrated into the main body of the article and the blatant negations of opinions contrary to those popular in the GLBT community should be deleted. Let the criticisms stand on their own and let the public decide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.217.119.160 ( talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
One thing I might suggest regarding the article's objectivity is it's somewhat glib explanation of the various religious responses to this matter. The only example it gives of the diversity of thought within Christianity, for example, is to cite a single reference from the Bible for an interpretation contrary to transgender identity while "citing" four separate possible references supporting the identity. But in reality, the single reference made in contradiction is the only specific verse given, while the four references in support only offer hyperlinks to entire books of the Bible, three of which are very long. Hence, it seems to me the references "cited" in support of transgender identity are far too ambiguous to provide the reader with any tangible notion of how religious groups use these books to sympathize with the GLBT movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.64.3.30 ( talk) 17:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Yep, this is pretty biased. There are lots of references to "the sex assigned at birth" (is someone just handing these assignments out randomly?), as opposed to some neutral term like "birth sex" or "inherent sex." "Sex" and "gender" are used interchangably throughout most of the article, despite their precise use being rather important to the topic, and this is handwaved with something about "pragmatic English" not distinguishing the terms well. The only reference to the immutability of chromosomes is labelled a "conservative view," although it's just a biological fact. It'll take a great deal of cleanup to make this article passable. Perhaps I'll take a stab at it later this week, although it's a daunting task. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.169.98 ( talk) 01:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The image Image:Tipton portrait.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 14:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend that these three sections (Cross-dresser, Transvestite, Drag kings and queens, all under the "Transgender identities" section) might be out of place, and/or might need some clarification. The APA (among others) state that being transgender includes some element of gender identity, and most definitions of those three words specifically do not include gender identity. Here's the APA answer on their website to "What does transgender mean?":
They do include a "broadly speaking" definition that *might* include a transvestite, but doesn't necessarily. Since those three labels are not necessarily transgender (though a person who uses one of the labels might identify as transgender), I believe they need to be combined, placed at the end of the "Transgender identities" section, and they need to be clarified with a ref. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 01:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
We agree with the foregoing author. The majority of our customers are heterosexual males who identify with their feminine side. They are not interested in changing their biological sex, but like to dress like women. Who has the right to say what is "normal". What works for one may not for another. It's our differences that make the world a spectacular place to live and we are proud helping those celebrate their true beauty within. Crossdresser Closet
I'd argue not for clarification -- although that would be good, I think the confusion over terminology derives from the subject, not the article -- but combination. According to any sensible system, these are one subsection, and should be combined. The subsection on transvestite, for example, clearly states it is a synonym for the previous subsection, then adds 6 citations!
I would combine myself, but other comments have convinced me that the sensitivity to the use of certain terms is a sensitive matter, and the rules are not often clear to newcomers. JakartaDean ( talk) 13:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
In my studies I have come across these two characters. Out of my curiosity, does anyone know the difference (in terms of meaning, not obvious looks)? - Pat Peter 04:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:STRUCTURE and all the other pages mentioned in the tag at the top of the section, I think the Criticism section should be eliminated, and its content distributed to the appopriate portions of the article. Specifically:
If there are no objections in the next day or so, I'm going to be bold and start on this. -- Alynna ( talk) 14:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that the transgender article uses the same main photo as the transexual article. I suggest using a different one, maybe the one of Billy Tipton or the Civil War soldier photo. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 21:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
My gut feeling has been that the topic is closely associated with religious practices, feudalism and personal metaphysical karma-- 222.64.18.207 ( talk) 15:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=transgender+religious&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en -- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I have managerial reasons to create those links and see the endnotes with my editing-- 222.64.18.207 ( talk) 15:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This edit claims that transgender identity got removed from the list of mental disorder only recently. This contradicts Gender identity disorder#Controversy. The way I read it, Le Mondé just repeated some older news yesterday (compare [14] vs. [15]). However, I am not sure, could somebody who actually knows French help?-- 87.183.241.220 ( talk) 13:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
See the discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Transgender_sexuality_article. A.A.Graff ( talk) 15:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, According to Wikipedea, Virgina Prince coined the name transgender, as a term for cross dressers,Please re check your references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.0.144 ( talk) 19:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The Bible verses cited are unclear on a number of levels. First, practically speaking, the links each lead to the first chapter of the cited book in the King James Version. That makes them effectively useless. When I went to edit the section, I saw the verse numbers are included in the source code, but apparently either the wrong Bible-citation template is being used, or it is being used incorrectly. I am not up-to-date on the current discussion on Bible citation templates but perhaps (for now at least) {{ bibleverse}} should replace {{ bibleref}}.
Second, the verses listed as potentially supportive of transgender need explanation. To those unfamiliar with whatever scholarship may have been done on this issue, they may seem vague at best to irrelevant at worst. It would be better to cite a secondary source from a theologian drawing support from those verses. I know there is a secondary article specifically for religion and transgender, but the summary present in this article should nevertheless be clear, if not detailed.
-- Ginkgo100 talk 14:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
This section starts by preaching treatment, then switches to lambasting those that aim to 'cure' the transgendered. Neither POV is properly attributed, and the statements about Zucker's motives only come from activist sites. Tijfo098 ( talk) 17:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
On the mainpage, there is discussion of how best describe scientific findings. The page, thus far, uses words such as "show" to describe findings, such as:
I am of the opinion that to maintain NPOV, one would also described Blanchard's original taxonomic finding as:
or similar.
I am sure that other acceptible phrases can be found for describing research findings accurately, but describing a desired finding as "shown" but undesired findings as dubious is pretty much the definition of failing NPOV. What other NPOV options for phrasing can folks suggest?
— James Cantor (
talk)
20:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
(Outdenting)
1. It was never clear to me how or why you are so angry. Regardless of your emotions, I recommend replacing phrases such as "your flood of words" etc. with more AGF language.
2. It is still not clear why you are fighting against the idea that Blanchard said (or believes) that autogynephilia explains anything. He never provided it as an explanation. All Blanchard showed was that the multiple phenomena that were being described in those days could actually be described accurately as only two phenomena. There has not been an article in the many years since showing otherwise.
3. I never said you held neuro data to a higher standard.
4. There is nothing relevant to the mainpage about "curious, as self-reports of non-autogynephilic gynephilic transwoman and autogynephilic androphylic transwomen are routinely disregarded by proponents of the Blanchard dichotomy" and I have no need to join a war of sneers and to call it a discussion. I merely point out the danger, and what you "read" into what I say is not under my control. Your mind is clearly well made up.
5. I cannot describe Hulshoff Pol better than Hulshoff Pol, who directly addressed the Zhou data:
You are free to your OR, but that's neither here nor there for the mainpage.
6. Your interpretation of Chung is also incorrect. Zhou et al. wrote that "the small size of the BSTc in male-to-female transsexuals...is established during development by an organzing action of sex hormones" (p. 70). Because Chung found that the BSTc difference does not exist during development, it cannot be the cause. As Chung wrote:
You are free to your OR, but that's neither here nor there for the mainpage.
Clearly, we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this any time soon. So, I repeat my earlier suggestion that input be sought from folks, such as at the neuroscience project, who can readily read the neurological data but have no stake in the topic itself.
(7. Blanchard is not my boss. In fact, he's retired.)
— James Cantor (
talk)
17:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
A neuroscientist and a comedienne walk into a bar... I, in turn, got interested in Wikipedia because I enjoy interacting with a wide variety of people. I'm impressed that there seems to be a lack of edit warring at Causes of transsexualism, but I think that it's reasonable to have some sort of section about science here, at Transgender. And I think that it is abundantly clear that, however this page presents Blanchard, it is essential to do so in a way that makes clear that his hypotheses are controversial, and not to imply that they are generally accepted in the scientific literature. Anyway, please allow me to continue to focus rather narrowly on the scientific questions here.
-- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Hemingway1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Hemingway2
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).FTMop
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Nonopexample1
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The section on non-operative transsexuals doesn't take into consideration non-op transgender people today. Is this section to distinguish between the common use of the word "transexual" or "transsexual" to describe an individual who is undergoing hormonal and/or surgical transition to their body?
Reasons people may choose not to or be forced not to operate might include: the results are undesirable - aesthetically or funcionally, they lack money, they lack pyschiatric approval required in many places, because of spiritual or moral beliefs about changing the body, their body is unable to withstand the risks or side-effects, and other reasons. This section could also be expanded to include non-hormone transgender people. Not having an operation or not taking hormones does not change the fact that a person was designated the wrong gender at birth. It is simply the path that some (many) transexual people take. I haven't updated this part of the article, but wanted to open to discussion before I work at it.
Korea is undergoing a transgender revolution, with many popular Korean transgender celebrities coming out. The first popular one was Harisu, later others such as Ryu Na In and Lady (four singers). This is the first Yahoo! group specifically dedicated to them http://groups.yahoo.com/group/korean_angels.
Due to the length of the previous debates, I'll put the most recent one now on top.
Somebody changed the bit about the number of gay and lesbian transgenders (after transitioning) from "many" to "probably about equal to that among the population as a whole". The later is a rather stange assumption, since every transgender group that does not discriminiate against gay or lesbian transgenders reports a very high number of gay or lesbian or bi- (or pan-)sexual transgenders. It is almost always at least one third of the group, but often more than half. That is clearly above the rate among the general population! (At least for now ;-)
I am not sure about published statistics (they are far to rare anyway), but counts by doctors who are also known not to discriminate against non-straight transgenders show only slightly lower numbers - and then it has to be taken into account that far too many transgenders would not dare to mention being not straigt to even the most liberal doctors.
Therefore, changed that passage back, and expanded a bit. Also added the bit about homosexuality - the word just does not work when talking about transgenders. – AlexR 22:25 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
I took this out pending clarification - a physical male who is transgendered might then be considered a female, and thus said female may be attracted to men, but not actually be gay, or said female could be a lesbian and thus appear to be a straight male. Also, is it so hard to start accrediting sources for such material? Susan Mason
'Transgender' seems to be used mostly as an umbrella term in the US and internationally. In the Netherlands (possibly in the rest of Europe too, I'm not sure about that) however, 'transgender' is used to refer to people who live as the opposite (to birth-) gender without SRS, by choice (ie. not due to circumstances). I think this is different from what is mentioned on the page already about 'between genders'. Kimiko 213.84.243.169 18:27 Apr 2, 2003 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Could someone (dis)confirm whether the term 'transgender' is also used this way in other European countries? ps. what about my other remark about the use of 'homosexual' above? Kimiko 213.84.243.169 08:50 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
How is this? Kimiko 12:25 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)
This use of "transgender" for non-op transpeople is pretty outdated. Those people now call themselfes and are called transgenderists. If the old use is still current in the Netherlands, it is definitely the exception in Europe (and the rest of the world as far as I know it).
However, sometimes some transsexuals refer to non-op persons of any identification, or even post-op people who differ slightly from the transsexual "standard" as "transgender" or any number of terms, to distance themselfes from anything they see as "not properly transsexual". That is however the use of a small minority, and it is meant to be very offensive.
I'll rephrase this sentence in the article.
AlexR 12:38 18 May 2003 (UTC)
From Patsy (tg), Norway. "Cathegorization" of transgender persons is bound to be inaccurate. Trying to cathegorize transgender persons in the context of a dictionary, encyclopedia, etc., one shouldn't use the verb "is", but "may." When you attemt to reclarify the word 'transgender' by adding another, 'transgenderism,' it only makes things more confusing. (I would never understand it, despite a life-time of 'transgenderism.' [Is it a diagnosis, or a political ideology? :-)]) It won't work across cultures, not to speak of languages. An article on transgenderism must rely on good explanations, and some often used slang/terminology, not exact word definitions.
I could not tell at a quick glance, or by skimming, whether a "transgendered" person is someone who was born with both male and female sexual organs. So I don't know how to evaluate the picture shown at http://www.bakla.net.
The last 3 pictures look like a woman, who has a penis. Does this mean she was born a woman, and had surgery; or that he was born a man and somehow sprouted breasts; or was born with both sexual characteristics; or is it a trick photograph.
I like articles to be easy to understand, and if I'm in the wrong article to find out what I'm looking for, I'd like to be able to tell that without having to read the whole article.
-- Uncle Ed 22:17, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I am dizzy with the idea of freely editing the fine work previously put in on this article, and hope that I have only added, and not detracted, from the quality of the article. I am a transwoman in the United States, in the process of obtaining my Ph.D. in the field of "Law & Society." I am finishing my dissertation, which is on the adoption of transgender human resources policy in U.S. employers. This is scheduled to be completed next month, and you may see some of my work at http://jillweiss.blogspot.com . Please feel free to comment or to write to me at jtweissny@aol.com
Jill
69.229.44.225's edits had some good points, especially the issue of medical professionals pathologizing TG folks. However, there were a lot of typos, and the edits removed a lot of good content from the previous version. I hope the current version retains the best of both. Jiawen 08:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have just joined Wikipedia and am a ts woman in the UK.
Here the UK, the word Transgender seems to have a different connotation to that in the US in that it implies "choice" and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens.
As a transsexual woman, I find that I have little in common with the latter three categories in that people i those categories all identify as male, but "choose" to spend a proportion of their time, but certainly not exclusively, mainly by dressing in women's clothes. Whilst drag queens are generally gay men parodying women, and cross dressers are generally getting a sexual thrill, transvestites can have these motives as well as gaining genuine emotional comfort from expressing themselves as women. Being a transsexual person however is not a "choice" thing, it is a necessity for survival.
There is more commonality between these 3 groups and historic Re-enactment societies than with transsexual women in that their primary identity is male, whereas transsexual women cannot cope being male and suffer from a genuine medical condition, Gender Dysphoria. It is arguable whether a cross dresser or a drag queen has gender dysphoria and of the majority of transvestites few ever feel the need to "move over" as I like to describe it.
In this page, that distinction is not being made and it means that transsexual people are bundled up into one group that is so disparate that the definition is offensive to women like me.
If generalities are valuable, then why do the homosexual element in LGBT need 3 letters to describe themselves L - lesbian women, G - gay men, B - bisexual everybodies.
My rights as a transsexual woman, or rather a woman-born-transsexual or as I choose to use, a "woman with a past that was not brought up as a girl" is seriously diluted by the word Transgender and at present, not sufficient weight is given to the offence that word has to transsexual men and women.
In basic terms whilst the word "Transgender" had resonance when it was first quoted, and it is popular amongst the gender congruent, it is a terribly sloppy word that is carelessly used by the ignorant to discriminate against transsexual people and used vicariously by drag queens/kings, cross dressers and TVs to play "me to" and medicalise their proclivities to gain advantage at our disadvantage. This is not to say that gender variance deserves fair treatment and freedom of expression and freedom to live without discrimination.
I am new to Wikipedia and hope that the Lead originator of this article can give me some guidance as to how I might contribute to the article-proper so as to help correct some of the present americanisation of the term Transgender. -- NikkiW 16:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear Alex. I am sorry that you felt affronted by my adding in the form of discussion, as opposed to direct editing, some viewd held not only by me but by many other women born transsexual in the UK. We are hardly uber anything, just sane women who are blessed with a modicum of intelligence and a strongly held point of view. Few UK transsexual women outside the clique of Press for Change subscribe to using the term transgender for themselves but as you correctly point out, the general population do group people like us in the same box, sad though it is.
Your inference that I am intolerent of other gender variant people is incorrect and as a lesbian woman neither is the sleight about civil partnerships, but I will set that aside, putting it down to an overzeaousness on both our parts to seek dissent for which I, for my part apologize. I have a few transmen friends and apart from their liking for testosterone (cannot understand it lol), our aetiology is all too familiar. I had no intention of marginalising transmen but in my opening paragraph to this dialogue, i DID say, "and speaking for the moment on M2F transgenderism embraces transvestites, cross dressers and drag queens."
That said, thank you for taking me to task about my discussion point and I took your views in mind as i re-read the article itself and on re-reading it appears to cover the subject fairly and as you rightly say, complies with the neutrality point of view for which Wikipedia is reknowned.-- NikkiW 20:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear alex in the definition you state "Transgender" does not imply choice any more than "transsexual" does. Just look at the definition, and tell me where the choice is supposed to be. Hint: If somebody does drag or cross-dresses just for the fun of it, without any gender-identity related motivation, it isn't transgender. (Of course, there are also quite a few "proper transsexual women" who did cross-dress for quite a while, trying to convince themselfes that they were just doing it for fun, so the line can in practice be hard to draw.) That also means that transgender people do not identify as plain "male" – oh, and BTW, thank you very much for ignoring transmen here and two times further down completely.
I afraid I consider your viewpoint/definition utterly incorrect. The orinal definition of transgender as used across europe and as the basis of its inclusion within LGBT was "people who challenge 'traditional' assumptions about gender".
It was designed to be a delibertly inclusive term recognising our history as part of the cycle of gender freedom movemnet from feminism to 'gay' back when 'gay' meant what we meant what we know as queer i.e. LGBT etc to the growing transgender movement. It was about recognising teh connection between transvestites, transexuals, drag queens. drag kings etc. It was about avoiding the intercine fights that split us apart. It was also about stopping in my community a bunch of typically white transexuals who had always had gender privalage on their side suddenly when faced with loss of said privaleges to scream victim, victim as they ran for a new set of gender privalages often in the form of hetreosexuality, sadly it appears in their shouting they have won. So as to your definition
Transgender as used since the early nineties has always been about choice and freedom, it includes transexual people simply because as a transexual woman I had no choice but to challenge 'traditional' assumption by transitioning, it also includes people who drag up for a lark. its an INCLUSIVE definition. you might like to look at the groups included in the LJ group transgender (which has over 900 active members!!) and how it defines transgender before assuming your assumtions are correct,
BTW I can cite all that i quote and when I have the time to learn to write and cite correctly I will come back and improve your work, its better than it was before however and I'm pleased abou that, but its still takes a surgical and very transexual viewpoint which is not what transgender is about. X_mass on LJ. btw I have been an out/loud transexual activist for nearly 25 years.
Please note that the division between transsexual and crossdressers has been a round a long time. At the same time there is a continuing division between transsexuals: those that believe that they are transsexual BEFORE their operation, but that their transsexual state is corrected by surgery, leaving them as simply women. The other side of the group identifies as transsexuals even after the GRS (gender reassignment surgery).
(I am brand new to wikipedia here, so I am looking for how I can help)
I am wondering just how diverse people "define" the transgender continuum.
Let me start off with my brief description of how I see a "person" defined. It is quite common for people talking about this subject address three or more "attributes" people have. Sex is defined as what genitals you have been given at birth. Sex as an attribute is not a binary designation, as evidenced by intersexed and hermaphrodite conditions. Sexual Preference is defined as what sex you favor for intercourse. It too is not a binary designation, and I can think of at least four common orientations: Male, Female, Bi, None. Gender is generally defined (I believe) as whether you believe yourself to be male or female. I personally believe that this definition is wrong, and that gender is a continuum. Then, I also usually add in addition a fourth attribute. Gender Roles are defined by me as roles you like playing. Again, I believe that a continuum here is needed as well. What I mean by Gender Role is what would traditionally be thought of as what men or women would traditionally do. For instance, this could include items like "hunting" or "cleaning" or "raising the family" or whatnot. These, among many other attributes, might make it possible to "define" a person.
Now, looking at traditional history, I will try to make up two People: one Male, and one Female. (Please keep in mind these definitions are for discussion purposes, I am not trying to enforce any stereotypes or such.
The Male would have a male sex, have a sexual preference for females, have a male gender, and prefer the gender roles like hunting. The Female would have a female sex, have a sexual preference for males, have a female gender, and prefer the gender roles like raising the family.
Now, if one were to take those definitions as the de-facto standard, then theoretically anyone who diverges from those definitions could be (again, in theory) considered gender queer, or transgendered. For instance, under this view, then even a gay man or woman would fall under this catagory as transgender. Of course, I believe that the opinion of the gay community would be that this is not the case. (Please correct me if I am wrong there)
So finally, I get to the subject of the topic here. Just how far does everyone out there imagine that the transgender catagory spreads?
(as background, I believe myself to be a transexual woman. I say this even though I do not (cross) dress, have not been to a psychologist yet, and do not take hormones of any type) Srinity 23:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Dr1819 16:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC) I removed references to "cross-dressing" due to the changing understanding and delineation among the medical community. By definition, transgender implies crossing genetic boundaries, and includes either feeling like, desiring to be, or dressing as a member of the opposite sex. Cross-dressers wear between one and a few items of clothing of the opposite sex, but do not appear as members of the opposite sex. By contrast, transvestitic behavior includes desires of either being or appearing as the opposite sex, along with external behavior to that end. Cross-dressers, however, may wear one or more articles of clothing typically relgated to the opposite sex (skirts or heels, for example), but exhibit the same behaviours and characteristics of their birth gender. Thus, there is no "trans"gender issue. Men wearing heels, while different in degree, is no different in substance than men wearing earrings. Furthermore, there's a vast movement with respect to men wearing clothing (including skirts) that have traditionally been worn by men for tens of thousands of years. One need not venture too far back in time to discover that the typical attire of most men included skirts, hosiery, blouses, and even heels (commonly worn for nearly 400 years by European aristocracy between 1500 and the late 1800s).
Equating "cross-dressing" with "transvestism" does a great injustice to both men and women who choose to wear clothing primarily relegated to members of the opposite sex, but who do so simply out of fashion preference, rather than sexual undertones or any desire to appear as, much less become, a member of the opposite sex.
I dont think the symbol is all the approprate personally. It wreaks of "queerness" , which just wierds out straight people, and that doesnt do anybody any good. I sure wouldnt put that on my car, lest people heft bricks through my windows when i am not around. I think a good symbol would be simple, striaght forward, subtle and not to terribly symbolic. ( it's not so much that people dont get the symbolism, it's that they dont want to, and its often offensive to people )
This entire article is really not encyclopedic at all. It's full of exclamation points and insufficient definitions. I cleaned up a lot, but it needs a lot more that I didn't feel like I was up to.
I removed this entire section because I didn't feel like it belonged in the article at all the way it was. It needs to be substantially edited to meet the Wikipedia standards of quality.
The way we included the subcategories of the mutually exclusive and partially exclusive categories, above, covers all inclusive categories.
Taking into account the total number of possible combinations listed above, we discover that the total possibilities of sexuality are between 4^4 and 4^5, or between 256 and 1,024, depending upon whether or not one has resolved their outward appearance with their desired sexual identity. Obviously, these categories are usually separate during the youth, of someone with transgender disphoria, but is for more frequently resolved during adulthood than it used to be.
The point is that human sexuality is far-ranging, and multi-modal. There are by no means just two categories, as has been previously believed, nor are there just four, as many still believe. Even psychiatrists and psychologists who've worked with the transgender community ascribe the number as between seven and twenty. Very few would ever consider there to be more than 100, much less 1,000!
When one sits down and does the math, however, it becomes clear that there are far more discrete categories involving human sexuality than the DSM-IV is aware, and this lack of awareness complicates matters endlessly for doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists dealing with the many issues of transgenderism. It behooves all of us to re-examine the resources we use when making decisions affecting the lives of others, whether we're in the role of a judge, a lawyer, a policeman/woman, a spouse, an employer, etc.
Provided people adhere to laws concerning non-gender-related common decency (no bared breasts, genetalia, bad language, etc.), behavior (no assaults, rape, theft, etc.), and safety (no speeding, running red lights, wearing appropriate safety gear on the job), one's genetic sexuality, physical sexuality, sexual preference, desired sexual identity, and ultimate outward appearance should have absolutely nothing to do with employability, retainability, or promotability, much less anything to do with the legal system.
We're all people. Every last one of us, regardless of the factors mentioned above. Human beings, possessing both intellect and emotions.
We have much to contribute, and all attempts to curb our contributions merely hurt society at large. Think about it. While you're at it, please stop trying to pigeonhole us into some "category." You can't even ID a tenth of them, much less keep them straight! And truth be told, a significant number of you would fall into one of the many categories that aren't "standard," if we could peer into your own private lives.
Someone please rewrite this entry to reflect reality, rather than some poor reflection of the "blind leading the blind's" DSM-IV, which reflects what was known about 70 years ago.
Thanks!
The concept of "transgender" is a very modern political construct located primarily in the United States, which has a known cultural bias towards extreme individualism. Somebody has to speak truth to power, even when that power self-identifies itself as "liberal."-- Naif 11:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
As a scholar and a professor (and a transgender person) I use this page a lot, and the grammar is driving me crazy. I've been resolving to try to help with that for a while, so here goes. Also, I added a section on "genderqueer," since that identity descriptor is used but not explained in the article. There's a lot more I would change if the article were mine, but the idea is to make it more accurate, not perfect. Anyway, -- Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 03:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Most transsexual people would not identify with the Symbol on the Article. When I had surgery, I lost the arrow and now only have a circle and a + symbol. Can an alternative please be used or is this a symbol that is in common usage in the USA for transgendered people? I would hate to think that this symbol found its way into common usage. It smacks of the dualgender ideas promulated by the UK Beaumont Society, a largely transvestite based organisation who up until relatively recently discriminated against transsexual people and who still work to another agenda. -- NikkiW 16:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
However, I strongly disagree with you that I discriminate against other people who are gender-variant. On the contrary I give support to all variants in my everyday life and stand up for all people faced with discrimination. Your assessment of me is wrong, sorry. Jumping to conclusions about me and my philosophy on how I treat all people based upon 4 paragraphs thereabouts is unfair and uncalled for. For a person who clearly contributes a great deal to Wikipedia, your agression in the above does you no favours, which is sad, because you could have so easily approached my discussion posting with something more reasoned and well mannered. The same objective would have been achieved without getting people's backs up. Perhaps it is the testosterone in you !(and I mean that jokingly !)Oh, and I never whine lol. -- NikkiW 20:21, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added to this page a version of the symbol which has been adopted by more trans persons than any other. This is not to say that all trans persons identify with this symbol, but the objections of some does not invalidate the symbol's resonance with many. Everyone is welcome to invent and promote symbology, and those which become most widely used will become associated with their predominant use. I am sorry if some find this objectionable. The symbol does not imply that every trans person has a penis, or any other such implications. It simply seeks to popularize the idea that neither sex nor gender are simple binaries, and we are all in this together, however we may differ. -- NancyN 20 March 2006
Because there are many unique issues related to transgender youths, should a section on this be included? Most noteably, Hormone replacement theropy before puberty results with mostly the desired secondary sexual charactoristics. LexieM 01:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
A number of transgender organizations use the butterfly as a symbol (tgsf.org for instance), or a variation on the yin and yang symbol (ifge.org for instance). – Dlloyd 14:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps someone might be interested in
what I've done with transgender symbols.
--
ParaDox
14:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source on "In Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini instituted state procedures to help pay for sex-change operations in those who identified as transgender.", specifically the part about the state funding part? I see no mention in the Transsexuality in Iran article. Jaytan 10:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I really can't find any evidence to that statement. I'm checking google news and a couple major news sources and Human Rights watch's website, but I'm finding a lot of evidence to the contrary (which I expected, but wasn't entirely sure of). Anyway, a lot of the articles talk about Iran imprisoning and executing gays, transgenders, and transsexuals. If anything, I would bet that any such program would only be in place today to lure out "criminals" or, the program may have been abolished. However, I do not know. I have found no real evidence to either side. (
Kiyae
00:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC))
I found some evidence that Iran does provide for SRS, however, it's basically to encourage homosexuals to become heterosexual. So maybe you shouldn't hold them up as a beacon of hope just yet...( Kiyae 07:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC))
I listed the article yesterday on Wikipedia:Cleanup#April 8,2006 with the following comment: "I tried to bring some order into that article today, and removed lots of BS and whining, but I think I worked too much on it already, this one desperately needs somebody to go through it and turn this mess into a readable article." User:Metamagician3000 already was so kind as to do some improvements, but in my opinion there should be a few cuts as well - this article cannot replace all the other articles in the WP that deal with transgender issues, and it sure looks like it tries at the moment, making it a mess. – AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd to see the source for the following generalization:
"Although few studies have been done, transgender groups almost always report that their members are more likely to be attracted to those with the same gender identity, compared to the population as a whole. I.e., transwomen are more likely to be attracted to other women, and transmen are more likely to be attracted to other men."
My own impression of FTM's is that they're predominately attracted to lesbians. I myself am MTF, and would have to question the claim that "transwomen are more likely to be attracted to other women". In my experience, sexual orientation of MTF's varies a great deal depending on the social milieu. If I had to estimate, I'd call it about equal between heterosexuals and homosexuals, with a large number of bisexuals as well. I think there's reason to doubt the accuracy of this unattributed generalization. -- LishLash 00:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for butting in here, it's hardly my place, but I would recommend that when discussing a topic as sensitive as transgenderism, when the vocabulary to describe the situations is as limited as it is here, one should either a) Use whatever descriptive terms and phrases are available to best describe the entirety of the situation, regardless of grammar, with regard really only to others feelings and such. OR b) Use the same exact words and phrases throughout the discussion so as to clarify.
Personally, I would go with option "a", simply because the vocab for describing this topic is extremely limited. I would take that to mean go with using the prefix "non" until a better option arrives. Really, I would Italic textloveItalic text to see a grand discussion (probably through wikipedia) that would come out with an entire vocabulary to use in this kind of discussion. Of course, that has to come from the transgender/transsexual community-and from nowhere else. Regardless, I hope my advice steps on noone's toes, and that this entry grows to greatness.
(PS-don't beat on the "cissies" too much, I know we're incorrigible, but still, some of us are trying to learn, you have to teach us.) ( Kiyae 01:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC))
Hi, I'm your friendly cabal mediator :), just letting you know that LishLash has requested mediation here. If people involved in the dispute could put forward their perspective I hope we can get on with resolving this little dispute and building consensus :) - FrancisTyers 16:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I note, once again, that a page asserts that "all transsexuals are, by definition, transgender" despite at least a decade worth of transsexuals, primarily post-operative male-to-female transsexual women, asserting that "transgender" is not a proper umbrella term for "transsexual". I note, also, that while "Conflict" is briefly mentioned in the article, I seen no discussion of the "Conflict", nor any proper analysis of why the conflict exists, the nature of the conflict, or arguments about it. As such, this article has pretty serious POV issues since it glosses the issue "transgender" subsuming "transsexuality". I'd like to introduce some discussion of this conflict into the article, since it is a real part of transgender politics, but have this feeling that it would promptly be edited out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.12.83 ( talk • contribs) 15:59, 19 May 2006
I'm pretty sure this paragraph from the Monosexuality page needs revision from a trans perspective. What do you all think? It's not my text, don't worry!
DanB DanD 01:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, among other things, the text assume the transperson's partner is not trans themselves! It also seems unable to imagine that the transperson may be fully accepted in their "chosen" gender by their partner, and relegates them to some third or in-between gender. I'd delete everything from "This becomes important...". ntennis 01:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
The article starts off with two definitions:
Both of which appear to be valid uses, but it seems a bit odd to just lump them together in two separate paragraphs, with no explanation. It seems to me that these are distinct (though with some overlap) usages of the term: e.g., a man who wears make-up and sometimes cross-dresses but identifies as a man would be transgender by the first definition, but not by the second. On the other hand, someone who identifies as a gender different to their "assigned gender" would be transgender by the second definition, regardless of their gender role. Shouldn't it be noted that there are these two definitions, rather than listing them with no explanation? Mdwh 14:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
One of the things that I might point out is that Trangender and Transexual are used differently in different parts of the English speaking world. In the UK, Transgender is purely reserved for pre-operative individuals, whereas Transsexual is post operative. This, of course, bucks against the USA definitions! Fluffball70 01:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Crossdresser and Drag Kings = Transvestites in the UK.
Ref for Transexual in the UK UK Gender Recognition Act
Transsexual and Transgender definintions as per the UK Trade Union Congress
The subtle definitions are blurred, depending on where the peice of literature you are reading is from. But, most every day British people will switch between the dialects with ease. It's more to do with the legal language.
Fluffball70 14:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed the "transgender as in between" section as it was a direct mirror of the original definition of transgender, which is already present in the article. Mugaliens 19:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not believe a "citation needed" should exist for the following: "Contrary to common belief, the vast majority of cross-dressers, which comprises the vast majority of those who wear clothing of the opposite sex, are heterosexual [citation needed]."
This is a commonly known fact throughout the CD community. Countless online polls of CD-specific websites have confirmed that less than 10% of those who identify as crossdressers are other than heterosexual. Furthermore, historically crossdressing and transvestism have been seen as fairly synonomous. However, in recent years, most of those identify as a crossdresser may wear female clothing, such as heels, pants, or a shirt, but they identify and appear as male. They are not trying to "pass." They simply enjoy, for whatever reason, wearing items of clothing intended for females. Contrarily, most of those who identify as a transvestite do try to pass. Finally, some who might be labeled as a crossdresser reject that label entirely, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that heels were worn by men for half of the last five hundred years, the fact that men's fashion has, over the last thousand years, run the gamut of most everything (except for bras) currently found in the female side of the store, and the fact that fashion changes on a fairly continual basis. In the last ten years, fashion shows have seen many men in heels and far more "feminine" outfits than one might find on the street. Some men have taken notice, and when these fashions haven't appeared in the men's side of the store, they've simply shopped on the other side.
Thus, caution is advised before any labels of transvestism or crossdressing are applied in any given situation, as some rather compelling arguments can be presented which counter both labels, unless the behavior is to such an extreme that it's clear (nails, hair, boobs) that the individual is desiring to appear as a member of the opposite sex. Mugaliens 19:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
If that is all true (and yes, it is) why don't you add that to the article? Or, more specifically, to an article on tranvestites or cross dressers? Further, just because the CD community knows that most CDs are heterosexual doesn't mean a citation isn't needed. CDs aren't exactly an all pervasive group, and there are people out there who think all gays and transexuals/transgenders are transvestites, and all transvestites are gay. A citation would be beneficial.( Kiyae 17:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
216.221.96.202 added a strange vandalism [ here] and i fixed it. block, anyone? Teh tennisman 21:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I got into a running debate with someone who insisted that transgenderism was a mental illness, and a disorder. Despite Gender Identity Dysphoria being in the DSM-IV as a "disorder", I am not entirely sure that it should be one. Yeah, those people need advice, but is calling it a "disorder" doing that condition justice? And are transgenderists mentally ill? 204.52.215.107 15:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
and needs a serious clean up. As someone who knows very little about all this stuff I'm not really much clearer having read it. two suggestions to start with, please clearly define transman and transwoman, it's not immediately obvious which way the transition is taking place in each case (though I think I've worked it out now). Secondly there are whole lot of random sentences throughout that just don't fit. Most probably need more explanation but this needs to be placed properly in the article. It needs a simpler general overview with all the basic definitions at the start assuming the reader knows nothing and may have some of the usual prejudices (if there is such a thing?) becuase this seems to be the general overview and introduction page to a range of issues. this stuff is really important too, good luck. Pugsworth 12:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[tɝans dʒɛn dɝ] seems like a weird pronunciation - Iopq 11:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
By positioning the navigational “LGBT Click Box” ( Template:LGBT sidebar) at the top right of the article, the association of transgender people with „ LGB“ (disambiguation page, where the text “Lesbians, Gays, and Bisexuals” is linked to LGBT, LGB again “pocketing” transgender) is extremely overemphasized, falsely making the connection appear absolute, predominant and obligatory, where in fact (quote from LGBT#Controversy):
IMO the
Template:LGBT sidebar should be removed from the transgender article completely, but not wanting to initiate an edit-war, I'll be content for the duration of discussion with positioning the template less predominant below the transgender symbol. Transgender is the main-topic of the article, which essentially has nothing to do with any specific form of
sexual orientation, because transgender people can for example also be
heterosexual or even
asexual.
--
ParaDox
15:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
My heart tells me to disagree with you, but my head says you're right. Very frequently, transsexuals and transgenders are not fully supported by the LGB community. There is a "trumping" or "poketing" effect when it comes to Homosexual and Transgender relationships. And yes, this article should emphasize transgenderism over the whole LGBT stuff. But again, my heart says to dsagree, quite simply because removing the flag is a very powerful symbolic gesture that shows you're not with us. As a gay cisman, I would hope I can support you, and you can support me. I would hope that even though our stations in life are different, that we can still connect on some level as partners, equals, whatever. Anyway, I just wanted to say that two of my friends came out as transsexuals in the past two years, and quite frankly, I would hate to not be able to stand under one unified banner with them and tell the whole bigoted world to go shove it. The rainbow isn't a symbol of homosexuality, it's a symbol of peace, love, compassion, and diversity. Whether you choose to keep the flag or not is up to you. But I for one will always leave my flag up, and you are always welcome to march under it with me. Whatever you choose, I hope that I can always march with you. (
Kiyae
04:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC))
My head and heart both say it should stay. We are stronger together than we are apart. This isn't a new idea.... my grand-dad was an old union carpenter and I heard that from a young age: we all do better when we all do better. So there is a measure of political utility today in fostering that togetherness. That doesn't mean that we are the same. Gay men and lesbians have a lot not in common. Bisexuals sometimes have heterosexual marriages. However that doesn't mean that there are not common grounds between all of the people in the LGBT community. In addition, there are a lot of people who ID as one letter at one time, others at another, or both simultaneously. I am transgender and gay, so I feel that I belong. However I also know people who are transgender and straight who were previously in the LGBT movement because they presented as lesbian or gay. They need a place still as well. And they sure as hell won't get it from the straight/cisgender community.
NickGorton
04:21, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the term "LGBT" is controversial, but I do not think the box should be taken down because of this. While it's true that sexual orientation and gender identity are seperate and transgender people can be "gay," "straight," "lesbian," "bisexual," or whatnot as far as their sexual orientation goes, the T and LGB should not be disconnected from each other because people confuse the two issues. For example, people may hate transgender people because they perceive them as gay. On the flipside, people may hate gay people because they perceive them as not living up to their gender's expectations. Understand what I'm saying? Transgender people may be of any sexual orientation, but the perception that they aren't is I think enough to keep it an issue in the same field.
Falsetto
01:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
@
Kiyae and
NickGorton, please excuse my late response, but I'm in en.Wikipedia very inconsistently (
de.Wikipedia gobbles up most of my time and energy already). I very much appreciate both of your contributions to this discussion, and will re“think” it all. In the mean time, quite likely permanently(?), the positioning of the navigational “LGBT Click Box” below the TG-Symbol seems to be a good compromise(?). --
ParaDox
11:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course, this is, first and foremost a TG page, not an LGBT page. And I'm very inconsistently on de.wikipedia though I do read it occasionally to check my german. (I'm nowhere near good enough to actually edit in there though.) ( Kiyae 07:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC))
the argument about trans inclusion in LGB is actually remarkably clear, both froma historical and current perspective, it is only since the late 1970's that some trans people have been excluded from LG. During the 1980's and early 1990's both B and T were excluded due to internal politics. From the mid 90's both B and T were increasingly brought back into the fold. The reason L and G excluded B and t was often for edsactly the same reason - that it would bring hetrosxual people into a homosexual space, an extension of this was the idea the recasting of history that homosexuals alone had fought for equality and that B and T were usurping the gains that L and G had made. Which was bit like the hollywood representation of the second world war which was apparently won by the americans. The reality is that trans has and remains an intrisic aspect of L and G culture. Whilst some Lesbians and gay men purely act str8, being gay in "bed and bar" or even complketly closeted - a word taken from trans culture btw, most lesbians and gay men use trans behaviour for example as the basis for example of gaydar (whish I could give a an accurate cite of this other than it being from a channel 4 program from the late 90's). Being a butch woman or femme/nellie/drag gay man is intrinsicly trans. The sisters of perpetual indulgence an LGB activist group was intrinsicly trans. I can point to numerous other examples where being visibly 'gay' is intrinsicly visibly 'transgender'. yes transgender people don't get the degree as support as they shoudl do from LGBT organisations, but it does seem to be a scale which starts with gay men getting the lions share and then lesbians getting most of whats left and bisexuals picking up teh crumbs leaving transgender people with none. This is a fault of LGBT organisations that need to rethink ther priorities not that LGBT shoudl exist. ( X-mass 01:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
Part of the problem is that people in the LGB spectrum identify themselves by stating their orientation wheras the T spectrum (and yes, it is a spectrum) is defined about not meeting gender expectations. It is important to note that the scientific (*cough*) study of LGBT issues was originally from a gender perspective. If you look at it their way (and as many of "the masses" see it), L and G behaviour is an alteration of normal social gender, in terms of "feminine (female gender) is attracted to masculine (male gender)" and "masculine is attracted to feminine".
The confusion between LGBT activities in history is continuously confusing - both lesbians and transgenders point to
Joan of ark; Gay males have stolen at times the
Berdache and
Gallae, who probably fit transgender stereotypes more accurately. As pointed out above Many people identify or have attributes of a variety of definitions through their life journey.
Of course, thanks to people like
Janice Raymond
^ (who still hasn't said sorry, btw.) our comunities have occasionally bee driven apart.
Although LGB have to fight to say it's about orientation, and T's have to fight to say it's not about orientation (on a personal note I'm sick of people asking me if I was just a really gay guy - at which time i usually point out my
same-sex marriage) it's really the same thing - we don't fit "normal" peoples ideas of "normal" men and women.
Sorry for the rant. No, the click-box should not be removed. Cheers!
Lauren
♫/
∆
13:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Placing the statement 'the t in lgbt is controversial' at the beginning of the article without further explanation, when its addresses further in the article makes a definite pov statement. Discussing it later in Contrast with "sexual orientation" places the issue in a better context. NickGorton 18:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
as of late january 2006 I can say that the current page is distinctly useful, it covers a range of the debate, seems to be relativly clear and understandable. I know it may move to another state in due course but I just wanted to note to all contributors how much I appreciate your help, to get it to this point ( X-mass 01:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC))
Does anyone have the book
Some searching on Google says that Virginia coined the term, but I find no solid references except that she probably claims that in the above book. Can someone provide a citation? – SatyrTN ( talk | contribs) 04:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Transgender is currently the LGBT collaboration of the month, and is being peer reviewed to pinpoint possible improvements for editors to implement. You can find it here Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.secondtype.com - Worth adding? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.149.16.69 ( talk • contribs) 10:04, 11 April 2007
I just put it out of that category. This mistake is really everywhere. I put it into an “Other flags” category - for the moment.
Comment I used there was: /* Sexual orientation flags */ This is definetely wrong. Don't sort this flag under "Sexual orientation". Transgender neither implies any sexual orientation nor is it a phenomenon on that field.)
-- 84.143.136.81 14:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The "external links cleanup tag" has been placed on the Transgender article. WP:EL recommends consensus, so I am adding this section on the talk page. My pov on the matter is given below: please share your input before I carry out the changes outlined. Editwikipediausername 03:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The current external links fall into four categories as follows:
- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Editwikipediausername ( talk • contribs)
I do not know if consensus exists (see above) concerning advocacy/activism sites being linked to, so I will not disturb them for the time being (with one exception: see below). However, I think I can say from the above that a consensus does exist about the support groups and biography sites: namely, delete them and replace with a link to "Transgender" at DMOZ. Similarly, I think I can say that a consensus does exist about information sites: namely, keep them. I will therefore carry out those changes, and insert the comment as stated by Alison above. A site-by-site analysis is given below. Editwikipediausername 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Site | Analysis | Action |
---|---|---|
European transgender network | EU-based advocacy site | Keep |
FTM Australia | Australia-based information site | Keep |
Hudson's FTM Resource Guide | USA-based information site | Keep |
Gender Identity Support Group | Australia-based support site | Delete as per consensus |
NCTE National Center for Transgender Equality | USA-based advocacy site. Already linked to under internal links and so can be deleted on grounds of redundancy. | Delete on grounds of redundancy |
Seahorse | Australia-based support site | Delete as per consensus |
Susanna Valenti: a Transgender Pioneer | Biography | Delete as per consensus |
Transgender Law Center | USA-based multiple-purpose site. Already linked to under internal links and so can be deleted on grounds of redundancy. | Delete on grounds of redundancy |
Trans Melbourne Gender Project | Australia-based activism site. Unsure about this one. Has a legitimate claim to be on this page but (as others have noted) there is a preponderance of Melbourne sites. | Weak Delete on grounds that a Victoria site is already listed |
TransGender Victoria | Australia-based advocacy site. | Keep |
The Urban TransMan | Dead link | Delete on grounds of deadness |
Second Type Woman | US-based information site | Keep |
(Rethinking) Gender | Newsweek (May 21, 2007 issue) transgender article | Keep |
Editwikipediausername 02:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
The external links category has been cleaned up as per part 2 above. More cleanup is possible (for example, all references to advocacy groups can be moved to List of transgender-rights organizations) but I don't know if it is desirable to do so. I therefore propose that the "external links cleanup tag" be removed on the grounds that it has been sufficiently cleaned. If anybody has an alternate plan or feels that there is more cleanup required, please share your input below before I remove the tag. Regards, Editwikipediausername 00:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
No objections have been raised, so I shall remove the tag. Editwikipediausername 02:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I would like to add a new external link. I am a member of a group based in Cincinnati which focuses on trans stuff and our site has a large amount of information about various topics related to genderqueer issues including information on GID, gender identity, community, and various resources. -thanks
[ http://www.uc.edu/groups/GenderBloc GenderBloc] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jakku Ari ( talk • contribs) 02:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Removed old talk to /Archive_01. Includes all unsigned comments and of course YATVT (Yet another Transgender versus Transsexual) debate AlexR 11:43, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
The very last paragraph under this heading is a bit argumentative. I didn't want to delete it myself bu felt it should be addressed. The part I'm getting at is the whole "biological determinism" and everything after the use of that phrase. It's an obvious bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kiyae ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
This section is load of random comments which have no references and cannot be verifiable.
A transvestite is someone who cross-dresses, but transvestic fetishism is a medical term for someone with a fetish for cross-dressing. To prevent confusion, the term "transvestite" has been rejected in favor of "cross-dresser.
Transvestic fetishism has been considered a derogatory term, as it implies a hierarchy in which the sexual element of transgender behavior is of low social value.
It is often difficult to distinguish between a fetish for cross-dressing, and transgender behaviour that includes sexual play.''
Who said all this? Please... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MalikaTG ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I cleaned it up. I deleted the last two lines and re-wrote the first.
Someone should check it to see whether it's okay now or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NatalyaAF ( talk • contribs) 08:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Does "transgender" mean that a women is born with a penis, and has breasts? Or what? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.251.174.137 ( talk • contribs) 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Why would someone who is friendly to the gay community blandly state that Ayatollah Khomeini gave his approval to transgender surgery with out pointing out the forced gender reassignment surgery imposed on gay men in that country? Are transgenders truly friendly to rest of the LGBT community or are you just biding your time to make us all trannies or be put to death? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist ( talk • contribs).
Why should criticism of transgender rationale, which is clearly designed to put clear blue water between themselves and gay people, be disallowed and removed? OK, lets all just say nice things about hormone treatments and genital surgery then you will all be happy. Is there any other example of pschiatrists and pschologists advocating radical organ removal surgery to deal with a pschological issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Greghist ( talk • contribs) 21:29, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Once again, my properly sourced comments were removed because they dared to expose the hypocritical and homophobic rationale that is increasingly to be found in academic transgender theory. Catherine Crouch's film served as timely warning of the current situation in Iran and what could happen here. Only acceptance of transgender rationale is accepted as 'neutral' or 'sourced' material and suitable for the public to read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 22:59, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Again, Alison or Alice, why would someone writing on this board that was friendly to gay people refer positively to Ayatollah Khomeint approval of the use of gender reassignment surgery without acknowledging its misuse and homophobic aspect? You only want positive aspects of transgenderism mentioned, without any criticism. It is clear that patriarchal society does favor transgenderism over, or as a solution to, homosexuality; this is why transgendered people are allowed to get married whereas gay couples are not. The article on crossdressers you mentioned sugests most crossdresser identified as heterosexual, not that they are heterosexual; there is a big difference. Men, even when crossdressed when having sex with another man, they are in the category of men who have sex with men and therefore are not heterosexual. It is possible they crossdress for purposes other than having sex with other men of course, but in my experience, this is most common aim of doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs)
I agree, it is difficult to quantify the extent to which men that crossdress (and I would include in that category all non-full timers, including the currently accepted separate categories of drag queen, female impersonator, transvestite and cd)are having sex with other men or whether the dressing is primarily intended to attract sex partners. Nevertheless as someone with many years personal experience as a man who has identified at different periods as straighht, bi gay and trans I know enough about the subject to make educated and well-informed comment; one problem here is that there is insufficient published critical studies to cite that cast doubt or question the curent edifice of mutually exclusive categories mentioned above that are indeed designed to create a formalized separation og gay people and trans people; a separation which in my opinion is greatly exagerrated and possibly largely fictitious. In my opinion this edifice has been developed to enable mtf trans people to be untainted by homosexuality in order to be more successful at attracting heterosexual identifying male sex partners. At the head of this discussion section is a question from 'just wondering'; read that question and you will see the consequences of the idea that there exists a group of people who are females with functioning male sex organs; there are bi-curious horny young men who are clearly taken in by this nonsense and it is leading to damage to the LGBT movement and our relationship to mainstream society. Let me hear it from you Alice or Alice, if you are serious and socially responsible academics, that no such group of people exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 16:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Hi Puellanivis; I find it interesting that once you had enjoyed sex with boys while 'dressed' your other self, the male 'hetero' one also realised he was no longer so interested in girls; and yet you continued to need to dress to have sex with boys; why is this? I ask an honest question because it is this aspect that gay men find suspicious, as if you are trying to squeeze homosexuality into a hetero box. Was your possibly objection to sex with boys as a boy yourself a result of homophobia or perhaps that you could get hotter straighter guys when a girl? I have met some transwomen who have admitted to me that the original decisions were influenced by the desire to avoid the stigma of being gay, and that in their culture, the correct response to same-sex attraction was to transform into a girl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 21:04, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
That's right Alison, as soon as we're in danger of getting to the heart of the issue, all discussion must be stopped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by R jay72 ( talk • contribs) 15:14, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
I find it most a most interesting coincidence that R jay72 began posting the day Greghist stopped. By another astonishing coincidence, their edit histories bear some remarkable similarities. Cheers, Kasreyn 03:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
So that's it: gotta go. I have 2hrs 54mins before my unlimited Internet access expires, and my usefulness to Wikipedia drops dramatically. I have been on Wikipedia for approx 6 months, and in that time I have worked on this article, the 2007 United Kingdom floods, the 2007 South Asian floods, the European Parliament election, 2004 and Template:Location map Scotland - if nothing else, it's an eclectic mix. It hasn't been fun (there are only so many pictures of mothers scrabbling through the mud of their wrecked Bangladeshi village you can see before wanting to throw up), but it has been rewarding. God alone knows how many cites I've added, but it's gotta be in the 100's. I have attempted to do my best by this article, and I have followed a policy of quoting like crazy in the citations so that those who cannot access the sites can at least see I wasn't lying: if nothing else, it deters vandalism. I have 7-10 days of limited Internet access left, but after that it'll take me six-12 months before I can get back to speed and it won't be easy (JSTOR costs!), but I will try. If/when I return, I will try to bring an article up to FA status, or at least GA (FA is hard). I would like to try with this one (it has to have hit B-class by now), if you'll permit me - if nothing else, it has to be better than wading through a table of EU election results which somebody put "this table is derived from official figures" without saying which official figures, and how they are derived (there were 25 countries in the EU in 2004, the archive results are in Spanish, and I no hablas espanol. Ouch!)
2hrs 29 mins left, so better cut this short. I was working on a fine valediction (you'd have liked it: it had puns!), but nahhh, short is good. So I'll leave you with this.
Benjiboi, if you switch between the plural ("drag artists") and the singular ("is") in the same sentenceone more time, I will go back in time and prevent your grandparents from meeting.
See ya in 2008, Anameofmyveryown 06:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I notice that a lot of images have added to this article recently – all of them photographs from LGBT pride parades. While this was certainly in good intentions, I think it would be better to have a more diverse selection of images, and also in positions where each image is relevant to the adjacent text. -- krimpet ⟲ 05:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that in 'Identities', the listing of the categories is uncited. This leaves me wondering: Is this a scientifical statement at all? Who else, besides the transgender organisations, which are hardly unbiased sources, supports the view that all these categories belong to transgender? 89.182.72.73 21:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Having cross-dressed once, for whatever reason, doesn't make a person a cross dresser. This should be self-evident, and an article in "The International Journal of Transgenderism" supports this view: "Another group that may be excluded by the BVD test can be those female impersonators who look upon dressing as solely connected to their livelihood, actors undertaking roles, individual males and females enjoying a masquerade, and so on. These individuals are cross dressing but are not cross dressers." http://www.symposion.com/ijt/gilbert/gilbert.htm What's needed here is a new article on Cross-Dressers that gives a clear and scientific definition, mirroring the predominant scientific view. Also, the overly broad definition that is now given under 'Identities' here obfuscates thew issue and should be revised. 89.182.0.102 10:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
We already cover this distinction well, I think, in the article cross-dressing which you removed the link to:
The term cross-dressing denotes an action or a behaviour without attributing or proposing causes for that behaviour. Some people automatically connect cross-dressing behaviour to transgender identity or sexual, fetishist, and homosexual behaviour, but the term cross-dressing itself does not imply any motives. (See "Equal clothing rights" below.) However, referring to a person as a cross-dresser suggests that their cross-dressing behaviour is habitual and may be taken to mean that the person identifies as transgendered. The term cross-dresser should therefore be used with care to avoid causing misunderstanding or offence.
Yes, I agree the section here needs improving. Mdwh 10:59, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
This article claims there are countless historical examples of transgendered people yet provides no reference, should the claim be removed without proof or else provide a reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.218.228.176 ( talk • contribs) 21:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
When I came upon this article, the following image was at the very top right of the page:
Is this really the best place for this particular image? Is a photo of a person in a miniskirt appropriately representative of all aspects of Transgender? I don't think so. I have moved it down, to the section about transgender and sexual orientation, since this person is at a Pride parade. I can't think of what image would be best, if any, for the lede. Suggestions? Thoughts? Photouploaded ( talk) 14:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Indent reset. I agree with the change to the less sexualized photo as the lede. Although David Shankbone's photo is great it does show a societal tendency to youthfulness and sexualize which is certainly not universal and not universal to trans people. For anyone else looking to contribute images please consider our international audiences and see if we can find images that reach beyond our current imaged demographics. I also concur that having one discussion here is preferable when the issues are pretty much the same to both articles in question. Benjiboi 20:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
THANK YOU for changing the leading image! I don't know if I ever said anything, but I've always hated it. As a trans person who has had (at least) one friend come to this page to learn more about me, it's nice to be more positively represented. -- Ephilei ( talk) 23:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Love the new image, the old one always bothered me. – random trans user, jan 20, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.176.53 ( talk) 20:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have thought about this a little more and I notice another disconcerting things about the choice and placement of photos in the article. For one thing the former supposedly sexualized lead image was moved to the section regarding sexual orientation. :-? I also note another problem with either or both images as a lead Image. They are all of transwomen. An article on "transgender" should also cover and represent transmen. The text is also written from the perspective and concerns of many transwomen and not really those of transmen. Like so many articles on TS TG topics this one would benefit from at least a restructuring if not a total re write. For now what I will do is find a WP acceptable image of a transman and add it to this article. Then I will contemplate such a rewriting of the article so as to incorporate transmen in a more natural way. -- Hfarmer ( talk) 18:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is very much written without a neutral point of view. First example, the section headed as "Criticism" implies physical attacks (i.e. similar to "gay bashing"), lack of understanding, and bias. It goes on to attack mental health professionals, stating that people who identify themselves as transgendered are often educating mental health professionals. The bias indicates that the medical and health care community "has it wrong" and that the only accepted point of view is that "transgendered" is natural and has only natural cause. If anything, the situation is far more complex, with there being multiple causes and the descriptions of the health care profession being absolutely clueless is biased, wrong, and harmful in that it will dissuade people from counseling and professional assistance in favor of community. This article packs a lot of information, but needs to be taken back a step and have the issue analyzed from an neutral point of view, point out the current state of (varying) opinion of the scientific community profession, and what the theorized causes are in total. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.144.99 ( talk) 12:18, February 8, 2008
I agree that the section is biased. I've made some adjustments - check them out! -- Ephilei ( talk) 18:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've rewritten the whole section. -- Ephilei ( talk) 21:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
"The medical establishment and trans community thoroughly rejects these ideas." What "medical establishment"? No ref? Removed. The statement then becomes "The trans community thoroughly rejects these ideas." Well no shit, Sherlock. Following the mental illness hypothesis, how often do you think people with delusions admit that they are such? — NRen2k5( TALK), 16:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Specifically, from the NPOV page:
"Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth doesn't mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority."
Now I recognize that a site specifically about a minority will have more focus on that minorities viewpoints, my specific problem is with the criticisms section of this page. Significantly more text is deveoted to rebuttals to the criticisms than to the criticisms themselves, exposing the undercurrent of bias from the author.
Something needs done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.86.139 ( talk) 05:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
"The majority view of the medical community is that transgenderism, and transsexualism are quite rare, but normal, and not caused by an individual's personal choice." I would like to see this sourced. In the meantime, the propnouns are very confusing. Can we agree for the article to use the pronoun appropriate for the person's chromosomal gender. I was so lost trying to figure out who was male and who was female while perusing the article that I gave up. For the sake of an encyclopedia article the objective reality of the person's gender should dictate the gender specific pronouns rather than the individuals subjective, and scientifically innacurate, though most likely constitutionally protected view. Basejumper2 ( talk) 22:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The site in question is registered to one Anne McLoughlin in Dublin, IE. ( Proof) — NRen2k5( TALK), 04:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a need to present an over-view of the transition process. People who live or work with someone who is transitioning should be able to see what the process comprises, where the transperson is in the process and what is still to come.
Various aspects would need to be represented in more than one time-map. Aspects aimed at a particular audience or for a particular purpose could be grouped on one time-map. Topics for time-maps could be: Self-discovery and self-acceptance, Coming-out at work, Transitioning with family, etc. Aspects would include: Emotional issues, relationships, hormonal issues, physical and surgical issues, medical issues, legal issues, etc.
Please comment and suggest. TranWen ( talk) 06:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not an expert in this field and came to the article seeking only a clear explanation of the difference between 'transgender' and 'transsexual.' With all due respect, I did not find it here.
In fact, this is perhaps one of the most opaque pieces of writing I've yet encountered in the Wikipedia (blessed be its name); it would appear that the authors are furthering some argument the general reader would be unfamiliar with. No doubt there is a place for this subtle & nuanced discussion, but I would suggest that this is not it. Could someone knowledgeable in the field of transgender please distinguish the two terms in plain English? It would be greatly appreciated. -- OldCommentator ( talk) 02:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Transsexual is the more precisely defined term that researchers and clinicians use to describe people who undergo or want to undergo sex reassignment. Transgender has not precise definition; it is used by people who are persuing social and civil rights to refer broadly to people who do not conform to simple-male and simple-female. In some circumstances, these purposes align with each other, in some circumstances they do not, causing friction between researchers (who use precise terms) and activists (who sometimes find medical terms pathologizing). I hope that is a help.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
02:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
This may be a question that's best posted elsewhere, but here goes.
Is it really appropriate to describe third genders that exist in non-Western cultures as instances of transgender? If, for example, Indian culture contains three genders (male, female, and hjira), then a hjira is living in her culturally ascribed gender, one which doesn't map cleanly onto Western conceptions of "male" or "female". It would seem that, logically, to live in a culturally established third gender is basically the antithesis of transgender, as the behaviour is no transgression of gender roles within the relevant cultural context, but rather a full enactment of them.
I guess what I'm wondering is whether labelling non-Western cultures' third genders as "transgender" represents an inappropriate imposition of Western frames of reference on a cultural phenomenon that can only be correctly understood within a frame of reference derived from the relevant cultural context. If so, then to describe third genders as expressions of transgender may darken understanding of both the third gender under consideration and third genders in general, and may be as much a gross and simplistic distortion as to describe third genders (or for that matter transgender) as expressions of homosexuality. And it would seem to me that darkening and distortion of understanding would be something an encyclopedia would like to avoid.
Don't want no OR here; I'm certain that there is good, sourceable writing out there around this subject. It just seems to me a question worth raising. -- 7Kim ( talk) 16:16, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, this isn't something I'd go down to the mat for, but it's pretty typical to give basic identifying information about a person that is relevant to a topic. There exist people who say some hateful things about transgendered folks, and the statement that Lawrence makes can be mistaken as one when it's reduced to a single-sentence summary. Indicating that Lawrence is openly trans (in my mind, anyway) keeps the reader from getting the wrong idea.
As I said, I wouldn't go to the mat for this, so if you revert it, I'll leave it alone, but I do think that the page is better when it includes her trans status as part of her ID.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to have a criticism section included in an article about an identity category? I've just visited a number of other pages that concern themselves with various identity categories and found no criticism sections on those. The closest I found was a section on homophobia in the homosexuality article--which I feel has entirely different implications than a criticism section. Likewise, a section on transphobia seems appropriate to me. As it stands, my opinion is that the criticism section actually constitutes transphobia...
I apologize if this issue has already been discussed--I tried perusing the archives on the talk page and did not find anything about this. Schn0529 ( talk) 18:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This article's
"criticism" or "controversy" section may compromise the article's
neutrality. |
This similarity between transsexuality and Body Integrity Identity Disorder (or apotemnophilia as BIID might also be understood as) has been inserted into the main text of transexuality twice now [9] [10] without an edit comment. The second time it was given a citation... exactly the same citation it already had in the criticism section. I understand that BIID people might see the similarity but most people don't even know that BIID even exists, even aside from some people thinking it's related to transsexuality. It's controversial. Hence, if it's even in the article it should be covered in the criticism secion and be treated with an eye towards NPOV. It shouldn't be the first thing mentioned in the transsexuality section about surgical issues, without even mentioning the controversial nature of claim that BIID is relevant. -SemiAnonymous 02:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
— MarionTheLibrarian ( talk) 02:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
— MarionTheLibrarian ( talk) 02:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
From my point of view, there are two content issues here: One is whether the Anne Lawrence article belongs appropriately in the controversy section, and the other is whether "sexual obsession" is an appropriate title to the section. I believe that "sexual obsession" instead should be "paraphilia." Neither Lawrence nor anyone else has referred to autogynephilia as a sexual obsession ("sexual obsession" is used only by opponents of autogynephilia to try to reduce it to a characature of what it actually says). Second, I do not believe that Lawrence' article belongs in the controversy section. For whatever reason, the controversy section is yet another re-hash of the same Bailey-bashing as on so many other trans-related article on WP, and the Lawrence article has nothing to do with Bailey's book. Including it there is not good editing, it's merely a tarring of all unpopular ideas into a single bin without further reflection.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
18:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
This entire section needs to be focused and rewritten.
...trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]
it is totally confusing. Thanks. NPOV-V-NOR 22:42, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering about this edit where a citation was just cut out dropped without discussion. Well, the edit comment said that there was a discussion on Talk:Homosexual transsexual that justified the edit but (1) the wikipedia jargon there was opaque to me and (2) it seems like individual pages shouldn't be setting policy for all the other pages without even talking about it where a different set of editors are operating. Like that article is about a theoretical construct from a controversial academic theory rather than like actual people... so maybe the standards of acceptability should be different there? Like that discussion worked under the assumption that if it wasn't peer reviewed then it wasn't "allowed in". Which makes sense for a write-up of academic stuff... but like... not really for a polical term designed to capture a variety of personal identities and bind them into a functioning political community. If something was published somewhere that the public can access and you're claiming "this was publicly stated" how is it not valid to say that it was publicly stated and then cite the statement as evidence? Am I missing something? Basically... whuuh?? My inclination is to put it back because it's appropriate for this article, but I'll hold off if the concensus goes against me.
-SemiAnonymous 10:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The discussion on
homosexual transsexual pertained to whether Wyndzen's comments met WP:RS and could therefore be used as a reference in WP. Except for one person (user:Jokestress), the consensus was that Wyndzen's comments did not. SemiAnonymous is entirely correct that different pages can come to different conclusions, but because the people who follow the
transgender page are largely the same people as those who edit the
homosexual transsexual page, there didn't (to me) seem to be a reason to repeat the discussion. Nonetheless, if you'd like to re-visit the decision specifically for this page, you certainly have that right.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
14:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem is not what Wyndzen said, but where she said it. At least, WP policy is neutral regarding the content of Wyndzen's claims, but requires us to limit inclusion to claims made in outlets that undergo fact-checking, such as peer-reviewed journals in the case of science. Wynzden chose (for whatever reasons) not to use such an outlet.
Wyndzen's comments are largely an expression of her opinion, which is perfectly legitimate for her to do. An opinion that is notable enough to be encyclopedic, however, must at least have been made by someone with some demonstrable expertise in the area. There is no evidence that Wyndzen is such a someone...in fact, she essentially says in her quote that she is not an expert on the research topic.
— James Cantor (
talk) (formerly,
MarionTheLibrarian)
01:26, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
This article is very one sided. It does not reflect the diversity of opinions, and when it presents any criticism of modern gender philosophy it immediately discounts it and dismisses it. I think it is comprimising the integrity of Wikipedia and needs an overhaul. The criticism section should be integrated into the main body of the article and the blatant negations of opinions contrary to those popular in the GLBT community should be deleted. Let the criticisms stand on their own and let the public decide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.217.119.160 ( talk) 12:55, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
One thing I might suggest regarding the article's objectivity is it's somewhat glib explanation of the various religious responses to this matter. The only example it gives of the diversity of thought within Christianity, for example, is to cite a single reference from the Bible for an interpretation contrary to transgender identity while "citing" four separate possible references supporting the identity. But in reality, the single reference made in contradiction is the only specific verse given, while the four references in support only offer hyperlinks to entire books of the Bible, three of which are very long. Hence, it seems to me the references "cited" in support of transgender identity are far too ambiguous to provide the reader with any tangible notion of how religious groups use these books to sympathize with the GLBT movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.64.3.30 ( talk) 17:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Yep, this is pretty biased. There are lots of references to "the sex assigned at birth" (is someone just handing these assignments out randomly?), as opposed to some neutral term like "birth sex" or "inherent sex." "Sex" and "gender" are used interchangably throughout most of the article, despite their precise use being rather important to the topic, and this is handwaved with something about "pragmatic English" not distinguishing the terms well. The only reference to the immutability of chromosomes is labelled a "conservative view," although it's just a biological fact. It'll take a great deal of cleanup to make this article passable. Perhaps I'll take a stab at it later this week, although it's a daunting task. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.169.98 ( talk) 01:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The image Image:Tipton portrait.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 14:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend that these three sections (Cross-dresser, Transvestite, Drag kings and queens, all under the "Transgender identities" section) might be out of place, and/or might need some clarification. The APA (among others) state that being transgender includes some element of gender identity, and most definitions of those three words specifically do not include gender identity. Here's the APA answer on their website to "What does transgender mean?":
They do include a "broadly speaking" definition that *might* include a transvestite, but doesn't necessarily. Since those three labels are not necessarily transgender (though a person who uses one of the labels might identify as transgender), I believe they need to be combined, placed at the end of the "Transgender identities" section, and they need to be clarified with a ref. -- SatyrTN ( talk / contribs) 01:10, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
We agree with the foregoing author. The majority of our customers are heterosexual males who identify with their feminine side. They are not interested in changing their biological sex, but like to dress like women. Who has the right to say what is "normal". What works for one may not for another. It's our differences that make the world a spectacular place to live and we are proud helping those celebrate their true beauty within. Crossdresser Closet
I'd argue not for clarification -- although that would be good, I think the confusion over terminology derives from the subject, not the article -- but combination. According to any sensible system, these are one subsection, and should be combined. The subsection on transvestite, for example, clearly states it is a synonym for the previous subsection, then adds 6 citations!
I would combine myself, but other comments have convinced me that the sensitivity to the use of certain terms is a sensitive matter, and the rules are not often clear to newcomers. JakartaDean ( talk) 13:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
In my studies I have come across these two characters. Out of my curiosity, does anyone know the difference (in terms of meaning, not obvious looks)? - Pat Peter 04:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Per WP:STRUCTURE and all the other pages mentioned in the tag at the top of the section, I think the Criticism section should be eliminated, and its content distributed to the appopriate portions of the article. Specifically:
If there are no objections in the next day or so, I'm going to be bold and start on this. -- Alynna ( talk) 14:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that the transgender article uses the same main photo as the transexual article. I suggest using a different one, maybe the one of Billy Tipton or the Civil War soldier photo. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 21:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
-- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
My gut feeling has been that the topic is closely associated with religious practices, feudalism and personal metaphysical karma-- 222.64.18.207 ( talk) 15:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=transgender+religious&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=title&as_sauthors=&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en -- 222.64.29.80 ( talk) 14:42, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I have managerial reasons to create those links and see the endnotes with my editing-- 222.64.18.207 ( talk) 15:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This edit claims that transgender identity got removed from the list of mental disorder only recently. This contradicts Gender identity disorder#Controversy. The way I read it, Le Mondé just repeated some older news yesterday (compare [14] vs. [15]). However, I am not sure, could somebody who actually knows French help?-- 87.183.241.220 ( talk) 13:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
See the discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Transgender_sexuality_article. A.A.Graff ( talk) 15:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi, According to Wikipedea, Virgina Prince coined the name transgender, as a term for cross dressers,Please re check your references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.0.144 ( talk) 19:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
The Bible verses cited are unclear on a number of levels. First, practically speaking, the links each lead to the first chapter of the cited book in the King James Version. That makes them effectively useless. When I went to edit the section, I saw the verse numbers are included in the source code, but apparently either the wrong Bible-citation template is being used, or it is being used incorrectly. I am not up-to-date on the current discussion on Bible citation templates but perhaps (for now at least) {{ bibleverse}} should replace {{ bibleref}}.
Second, the verses listed as potentially supportive of transgender need explanation. To those unfamiliar with whatever scholarship may have been done on this issue, they may seem vague at best to irrelevant at worst. It would be better to cite a secondary source from a theologian drawing support from those verses. I know there is a secondary article specifically for religion and transgender, but the summary present in this article should nevertheless be clear, if not detailed.
-- Ginkgo100 talk 14:26, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
This section starts by preaching treatment, then switches to lambasting those that aim to 'cure' the transgendered. Neither POV is properly attributed, and the statements about Zucker's motives only come from activist sites. Tijfo098 ( talk) 17:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
On the mainpage, there is discussion of how best describe scientific findings. The page, thus far, uses words such as "show" to describe findings, such as:
I am of the opinion that to maintain NPOV, one would also described Blanchard's original taxonomic finding as:
or similar.
I am sure that other acceptible phrases can be found for describing research findings accurately, but describing a desired finding as "shown" but undesired findings as dubious is pretty much the definition of failing NPOV. What other NPOV options for phrasing can folks suggest?
— James Cantor (
talk)
20:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
(Outdenting)
1. It was never clear to me how or why you are so angry. Regardless of your emotions, I recommend replacing phrases such as "your flood of words" etc. with more AGF language.
2. It is still not clear why you are fighting against the idea that Blanchard said (or believes) that autogynephilia explains anything. He never provided it as an explanation. All Blanchard showed was that the multiple phenomena that were being described in those days could actually be described accurately as only two phenomena. There has not been an article in the many years since showing otherwise.
3. I never said you held neuro data to a higher standard.
4. There is nothing relevant to the mainpage about "curious, as self-reports of non-autogynephilic gynephilic transwoman and autogynephilic androphylic transwomen are routinely disregarded by proponents of the Blanchard dichotomy" and I have no need to join a war of sneers and to call it a discussion. I merely point out the danger, and what you "read" into what I say is not under my control. Your mind is clearly well made up.
5. I cannot describe Hulshoff Pol better than Hulshoff Pol, who directly addressed the Zhou data:
You are free to your OR, but that's neither here nor there for the mainpage.
6. Your interpretation of Chung is also incorrect. Zhou et al. wrote that "the small size of the BSTc in male-to-female transsexuals...is established during development by an organzing action of sex hormones" (p. 70). Because Chung found that the BSTc difference does not exist during development, it cannot be the cause. As Chung wrote:
You are free to your OR, but that's neither here nor there for the mainpage.
Clearly, we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this any time soon. So, I repeat my earlier suggestion that input be sought from folks, such as at the neuroscience project, who can readily read the neurological data but have no stake in the topic itself.
(7. Blanchard is not my boss. In fact, he's retired.)
— James Cantor (
talk)
17:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
A neuroscientist and a comedienne walk into a bar... I, in turn, got interested in Wikipedia because I enjoy interacting with a wide variety of people. I'm impressed that there seems to be a lack of edit warring at Causes of transsexualism, but I think that it's reasonable to have some sort of section about science here, at Transgender. And I think that it is abundantly clear that, however this page presents Blanchard, it is essential to do so in a way that makes clear that his hypotheses are controversial, and not to imply that they are generally accepted in the scientific literature. Anyway, please allow me to continue to focus rather narrowly on the scientific questions here.
-- Tryptofish ( talk) 21:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
The section on religion needs to reflect that Christianity as a faith generally condemns lady men and the like. There are some Protestant denominations that have probably decided to tolerate such behavior but they're not of comparable following with more traditional denominations. K. the Surveyor ( talk) 05:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
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