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You may not like it, but it's not for you alone to decide what "this stupid article" "deserves". You aren't engaging with other editors in good faith; you are merely throwing around insults. Your tone is so vague that I can't actually work out what you're objecting to. You should try to communicate with other editors in respectful language, and in enough detail as to allow them to make sense of your complaints.
Finally: a talk page is not a place for you to preach your political beliefs. It exists to facilitate the smooth management of an article. Show some respect for the community.
Foxmilder (
talk)
07:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The sentence is speaking in Wikipedia’s voice that Meir’s description was “incorrect”, and that this is verifiable from the reference. But that is the strangest reference I’ve ever seen on any Wiki. This seems like original research. Regardless, something is wrong here. But I don’t have a clue as to where to start to fix it.
Artificial Nagger (
talk)
04:59, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Agreed. This article is not sufficient enough to stand on its own merits. There is already an appropriate separate section in the
Golda Meir main article:
Golda Meir#"There was no such thing as Palestinians" and this article does not state much more.
Definitely also think there should be an article on general denialism on Palestinian identity. Just not sure if this meets muster to have an article all on its own.
Mistamystery (
talk)
16:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
He did not say the same thing - he was talking about
Pan-Arabism. More importantly, he was a not-particularly-senior member of the PLO. His quote is only well known because anti-Palestinian commentators have amplified it, despite it being an extreme fringe viewpoint.
What would be more relevant here is the parallel with the claims that there is "no such thing as a Jewish people" - i.e. the claim that Jews are a religious group not an ethnic group. See for example
Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism.
1. The Wikipedia requirement of a Neutral Point of View which is fair and proportionate should necessitate that this article discuss the extensive attempts to deligitimize approx 3,500 years of continuous Jewish habitation in the land, and the widespread denial of Jewish history, including Holocaust denial. Otherwise the article may be expected to misleadingly create the impression in the reader that this is a one sided discussion.
2. In order to present a Neutral Point of View it is also necessary to represent the many sources, including numerous respected Arab voices, that have agreed that there is no such thing as Palestinians as a distinct cultural or national identity with any history prior to the 1960s.
3. A dispute over rightful ownership of a land, and claims of a historically true, distinct cultural and national identity, are not resolved in an unbiased way when the question cannot even be asked or investigated from a historical or legal aspect, where a public article on the matter quotes those who disdain the question, presenting to the reader as though the discussion itself is offensive and invalid. This Wikipedia article, though I will assume good faith, presents a one-sided view, and may well mislead the reader, as well as impeding the pursuit of a factual assessment, or of clear information with which to consider the matter.
Since the article is locked I cannot add the relevant quotations where they belong, but I will attach a few of them here as point of reference for those with permissions and knowledge of how to properly edit the article. If there's another method to seek repair of this article, I would be happy to be informed of such.
This is the full relevant quote, as previously mentioned on the Talk page for this article, from Zahir Muhsein, Executive Committee Member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, when he spoke on March 31, 1977 to Dutch newspaper Trouw.
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a 'Palestinian' state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a 'Palestinian' people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a 'Palestinian', I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
Here are other pertinent quotations which could be added to this article to provide a more balanced and neutral view of this topic, so an not to by mistake only present one side.
Arab leader and educator Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi told the British Peel Commission in 1937: "There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”
Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the Anglo-American Committee, “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.”
According to Arab-American columnist Joseph Farah, “Palestine has never existed – before or since – as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.”
Additionally a balanced view of this complex topic should perhaps include the fact that this is not the first, nor second nation that the PLO/Fatah has attempted to supplant arguing that they are the rightful owners of the land, but is rather the third attempt. The PLO/Fatah organization led by Yasser Arafat previously attempted a takeover of Jordan, see Black September
/info/en/?search=Black_September , after which Jordan went to war to stop this attempted seizure of their country, and expelled the PLO to Lebanon. There again the PLO/Fatah attempted to lay claim to Lebanon, causing a decade of civil war, turning much of Beirut into terror infrastructure, and seeking to create a "State within a State", with the help of Arab Liberation Front, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al-Qassam Brigades, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine EO, and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
It seems reasonable that an article sharing information on the topic of Palestinian claims to cultural or national identity would not only present one-sided views, but would at least also include quotes from Palestinians disputing these claims before they were implemented, as well as other attempts by the same organizations to lay claim to other countries, which is certainly relevant.
/info/en/?search=Lebanese_Civil_War
Here is a video of Mossab Hassan Yousef who grew up in Arab towns in Israel, who is the son of one of Hamas's founders, stating vehemently: "None of it is real, including Palestine. It's only in your head. None of it is existential. Palestine was never born. How can you free it? It was never there. It's just a colonial entity, and some people choose to make it into a national identity, and this parrot has just been repeating Hamas propaganda." Are any of the numerous quotes this Arab man who grew up directly in the region in discussion, with first hand experience not just with the general population and its aspirations, but extensively and intimately with present day Palestinian leadership, sharing his well informed views from his perspective on whether the Palestinian concept is an authentic cultural or national identity not relevant to this article?
https://x.com/GUY_BM370/status/1788318351518777359Maradakia (
talk)
05:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Cattan quote
The quote from his book does demonstrate an extreme response, but I'm not sure of the value of including it here. It is part of a rant with clear POV, and reads into the quote elements that are not there (as he segues in the same sentence into a criticism of a book by another author). –
SJ +19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
While this is a quote that occasionally comes up in popular debates and gets interpreted as suits the argument (almost always as a straw man), this is not Wikiquote and it doesn't seem to have independent historical significance. It was a memorable point of controversy in Meir's political career, worth a mention in her bio; but this should probably merge into her article. –
SJ +19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I agree. Significant post-dated critical commentary on a quote (widely cited out of context, mind you) does not warrant a page of this size.
There’s already a mention in her article and an expansion of that section should be sufficient.
Disagree - the quote is highly significant in its own right. Notwithstanding the high quality of the sources used in the article, note that in the last two years this article has been read almost 150,000 times. That statistic alone confirms the clear notability of this topic.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
23:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Agree to merge, it's entirely undue giving this much copy to a quote. Per
WP:ONUS, just because something is noteworthy it does not mean it deserves its own article. TarnishedPathtalk09:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose - For now, anyway. I'm having difficulty mapping the reasons provided to
WP:MERGEREASON. Another mapping seems to be to
WP:NOTMERGE, specifically "Merging should be avoided if: 2. The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles", which resembles a description of what has presumably already happened in this case and will continue to happen over time, as is the norm with Wikipedia articles. Onceinawhile's statistic is a consideration too, together with
this information that appears to indicate that readership is still at a relatively elevated level, presumably because of the ongoing war.
Sean.hoyland (
talk)
15:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose – It seems reasonable to argue that this phrase doesn't deserve its own article but if anything it should be merged into a page about "Denial of Palestinian peoplehood/nationality/identity". I don't believe merging to Golda Meir makes sense.
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk)
16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article is about Meir. She’s the primary source of notability. If it was some random who said the same things we wouldn’t be having this discussion, because this article wouldn’t exist. TarnishedPathtalk13:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That article discusses a common phrase, broadly used. This article discusses quotes from Meir specifically. No Meir making said quotes no article about Meir making said quotes. TarnishedPathtalk13:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose merging to
Golda Meir - putting all this content on the biography article about her would be
WP:UNDUE for the biography article about her. This woman's life was about more than just this one quote. Neutral on merging to
Palestinian identity#Denial of Palestinian identity. Neutral because it quite possibly would also be WP:UNDUE for that article, but maybe not, as this quote is a famous example of denial of Palestinian identity. I'd be curious what editors of that article think about it. But I would think if that target is considered, there should be a new merge proposal, and per
WP:MERGEPROP, the discussion should happen at the merge destination article not the origin article.
Levivich (
talk)
15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
IOHANNVSVERVS@
Clammodest my apologies, there seems to have been a browser error on my end and I did not intend to make this revert on this page. Just clarifying as the justification was meant for another edit and not this one. IO thanks for handling.
Mistamystery (
talk)
01:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You must be logged-in and
extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to
make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
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Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
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Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
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You may not like it, but it's not for you alone to decide what "this stupid article" "deserves". You aren't engaging with other editors in good faith; you are merely throwing around insults. Your tone is so vague that I can't actually work out what you're objecting to. You should try to communicate with other editors in respectful language, and in enough detail as to allow them to make sense of your complaints.
Finally: a talk page is not a place for you to preach your political beliefs. It exists to facilitate the smooth management of an article. Show some respect for the community.
Foxmilder (
talk)
07:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)reply
The sentence is speaking in Wikipedia’s voice that Meir’s description was “incorrect”, and that this is verifiable from the reference. But that is the strangest reference I’ve ever seen on any Wiki. This seems like original research. Regardless, something is wrong here. But I don’t have a clue as to where to start to fix it.
Artificial Nagger (
talk)
04:59, 9 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Agreed. This article is not sufficient enough to stand on its own merits. There is already an appropriate separate section in the
Golda Meir main article:
Golda Meir#"There was no such thing as Palestinians" and this article does not state much more.
Definitely also think there should be an article on general denialism on Palestinian identity. Just not sure if this meets muster to have an article all on its own.
Mistamystery (
talk)
16:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)reply
He did not say the same thing - he was talking about
Pan-Arabism. More importantly, he was a not-particularly-senior member of the PLO. His quote is only well known because anti-Palestinian commentators have amplified it, despite it being an extreme fringe viewpoint.
What would be more relevant here is the parallel with the claims that there is "no such thing as a Jewish people" - i.e. the claim that Jews are a religious group not an ethnic group. See for example
Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism.
1. The Wikipedia requirement of a Neutral Point of View which is fair and proportionate should necessitate that this article discuss the extensive attempts to deligitimize approx 3,500 years of continuous Jewish habitation in the land, and the widespread denial of Jewish history, including Holocaust denial. Otherwise the article may be expected to misleadingly create the impression in the reader that this is a one sided discussion.
2. In order to present a Neutral Point of View it is also necessary to represent the many sources, including numerous respected Arab voices, that have agreed that there is no such thing as Palestinians as a distinct cultural or national identity with any history prior to the 1960s.
3. A dispute over rightful ownership of a land, and claims of a historically true, distinct cultural and national identity, are not resolved in an unbiased way when the question cannot even be asked or investigated from a historical or legal aspect, where a public article on the matter quotes those who disdain the question, presenting to the reader as though the discussion itself is offensive and invalid. This Wikipedia article, though I will assume good faith, presents a one-sided view, and may well mislead the reader, as well as impeding the pursuit of a factual assessment, or of clear information with which to consider the matter.
Since the article is locked I cannot add the relevant quotations where they belong, but I will attach a few of them here as point of reference for those with permissions and knowledge of how to properly edit the article. If there's another method to seek repair of this article, I would be happy to be informed of such.
This is the full relevant quote, as previously mentioned on the Talk page for this article, from Zahir Muhsein, Executive Committee Member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, when he spoke on March 31, 1977 to Dutch newspaper Trouw.
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a 'Palestinian' state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a 'Palestinian' people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a 'Palestinian', I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
Here are other pertinent quotations which could be added to this article to provide a more balanced and neutral view of this topic, so an not to by mistake only present one side.
Arab leader and educator Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi told the British Peel Commission in 1937: "There is no such country as Palestine. ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. ‘Palestine’ is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
Abdul Hamid Sharif, Prime Minister of Jordan declared, in 1980, “The Palestinians and Jordanians do not belong to different nationalities. They hold the same Jordanian passports, are Arabs and have the same Jordanian culture.”
Distinguished Arab-American Princeton University historian Philip Hitti testified before the Anglo-American Committee, “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history.”
According to Arab-American columnist Joseph Farah, “Palestine has never existed – before or since – as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.”
Additionally a balanced view of this complex topic should perhaps include the fact that this is not the first, nor second nation that the PLO/Fatah has attempted to supplant arguing that they are the rightful owners of the land, but is rather the third attempt. The PLO/Fatah organization led by Yasser Arafat previously attempted a takeover of Jordan, see Black September
/info/en/?search=Black_September , after which Jordan went to war to stop this attempted seizure of their country, and expelled the PLO to Lebanon. There again the PLO/Fatah attempted to lay claim to Lebanon, causing a decade of civil war, turning much of Beirut into terror infrastructure, and seeking to create a "State within a State", with the help of Arab Liberation Front, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Al-Qassam Brigades, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine EO, and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
It seems reasonable that an article sharing information on the topic of Palestinian claims to cultural or national identity would not only present one-sided views, but would at least also include quotes from Palestinians disputing these claims before they were implemented, as well as other attempts by the same organizations to lay claim to other countries, which is certainly relevant.
/info/en/?search=Lebanese_Civil_War
Here is a video of Mossab Hassan Yousef who grew up in Arab towns in Israel, who is the son of one of Hamas's founders, stating vehemently: "None of it is real, including Palestine. It's only in your head. None of it is existential. Palestine was never born. How can you free it? It was never there. It's just a colonial entity, and some people choose to make it into a national identity, and this parrot has just been repeating Hamas propaganda." Are any of the numerous quotes this Arab man who grew up directly in the region in discussion, with first hand experience not just with the general population and its aspirations, but extensively and intimately with present day Palestinian leadership, sharing his well informed views from his perspective on whether the Palestinian concept is an authentic cultural or national identity not relevant to this article?
https://x.com/GUY_BM370/status/1788318351518777359Maradakia (
talk)
05:31, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Cattan quote
The quote from his book does demonstrate an extreme response, but I'm not sure of the value of including it here. It is part of a rant with clear POV, and reads into the quote elements that are not there (as he segues in the same sentence into a criticism of a book by another author). –
SJ +19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
While this is a quote that occasionally comes up in popular debates and gets interpreted as suits the argument (almost always as a straw man), this is not Wikiquote and it doesn't seem to have independent historical significance. It was a memorable point of controversy in Meir's political career, worth a mention in her bio; but this should probably merge into her article. –
SJ +19:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)reply
I agree. Significant post-dated critical commentary on a quote (widely cited out of context, mind you) does not warrant a page of this size.
There’s already a mention in her article and an expansion of that section should be sufficient.
Disagree - the quote is highly significant in its own right. Notwithstanding the high quality of the sources used in the article, note that in the last two years this article has been read almost 150,000 times. That statistic alone confirms the clear notability of this topic.
Onceinawhile (
talk)
23:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Agree to merge, it's entirely undue giving this much copy to a quote. Per
WP:ONUS, just because something is noteworthy it does not mean it deserves its own article. TarnishedPathtalk09:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose - For now, anyway. I'm having difficulty mapping the reasons provided to
WP:MERGEREASON. Another mapping seems to be to
WP:NOTMERGE, specifically "Merging should be avoided if: 2. The separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles", which resembles a description of what has presumably already happened in this case and will continue to happen over time, as is the norm with Wikipedia articles. Onceinawhile's statistic is a consideration too, together with
this information that appears to indicate that readership is still at a relatively elevated level, presumably because of the ongoing war.
Sean.hoyland (
talk)
15:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose – It seems reasonable to argue that this phrase doesn't deserve its own article but if anything it should be merged into a page about "Denial of Palestinian peoplehood/nationality/identity". I don't believe merging to Golda Meir makes sense.
IOHANNVSVERVS (
talk)
16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)reply
The article is about Meir. She’s the primary source of notability. If it was some random who said the same things we wouldn’t be having this discussion, because this article wouldn’t exist. TarnishedPathtalk13:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
That article discusses a common phrase, broadly used. This article discusses quotes from Meir specifically. No Meir making said quotes no article about Meir making said quotes. TarnishedPathtalk13:55, 6 June 2024 (UTC)reply
Oppose merging to
Golda Meir - putting all this content on the biography article about her would be
WP:UNDUE for the biography article about her. This woman's life was about more than just this one quote. Neutral on merging to
Palestinian identity#Denial of Palestinian identity. Neutral because it quite possibly would also be WP:UNDUE for that article, but maybe not, as this quote is a famous example of denial of Palestinian identity. I'd be curious what editors of that article think about it. But I would think if that target is considered, there should be a new merge proposal, and per
WP:MERGEPROP, the discussion should happen at the merge destination article not the origin article.
Levivich (
talk)
15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)reply
@
IOHANNVSVERVS@
Clammodest my apologies, there seems to have been a browser error on my end and I did not intend to make this revert on this page. Just clarifying as the justification was meant for another edit and not this one. IO thanks for handling.
Mistamystery (
talk)
01:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)reply