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Response to Pentawing: Restored parody. It's traditional, all right, and part of the school's history. This was being sung in the dorms (East Quad, West Quad) 1979-84; confirmed by alums as having ben sung in the 50s. And I have two degrees from Michigan, thanks. Adamdavis
The melody of the fight song is very similar to the trio section from The Spirit of Liberty March. (not Hail to the Spirit of Liberty by Sousa) This march appears on the Karussells of Europe recording. At one point, the University of Michigan article had a note that it was George (Geo) Rosey's and was copyrighted earlier in 1898. However, I can find no corroborating data, including searching the Library of Congress.
These states constituted the former Northwest Territory: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Is not somewhat probable that -- "Champions of the NorthWest" simply wouldn't scan, and was shortened by the songwriter to "West"? 66.65.76.15 21:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The page says "The phrase "champions of the west" is often misunderstood", but does not say misunderstood as what, and so reads poorly. If it is often misunderstood, then, since it's so often maybe someone has an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 ( talk) 15:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is true that the specific reference to "champions of the West" refers to (or very probably anyway) the common name for the athletic conference, but it begs the question (to a small extant) as to how the conference got that name. The 20th and 21st century definition of the "west" is completely different than the 19th century definition. Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, were "the West." See for example Theodore Roosevelt's The Winning of the West which is about territory east of the Mississippi, not what we nowadays call "the West." There are many other examples in the literature of the day that make this fact clear. What we in the 21st century call "the West" was called "the Far West" (see Volume 4 of Roosevelt). Roosevelt's work was written in 1889, and "the Victors" was written in 1898. LaurentianShield ( talk) 21:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
The U of M Men's Glee Club references the Sousa claim when introducing The Victors in its concerts; it did when I was there in the late 60s and early 70s and to the best of my knowledge still does now. I'd always assumed that the history was internal lore handed down from when it happened; the Glee Club has long had close ties to the School of Music and Sousa had close ties to the U of M, particularly in the years 1915-1926 when the Director of the Marching Band was Wilfred Wilson, who was a close friend (see http://mmb.music.umich.edu/history/wilson.asp, retrieved 10/25/09). It seems reinforced by Sousa refusing Wilson's request to write a march for the U of M Band, saying that they already had a great one (see the same reference). Bethunch ( talk) 03:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I am wondering about the claim that sousa stated The Victors was the greatest college fight song. I have seen this in numerous places stating that he said this about On Wisconsin. A google search shows pretty much 50/50 either way. Is the quote provided in any context in the prowler or is just the standard "Sousa said it was the best" remark that I see everywhere? If the latter is the case, it should probably be removed from the article. -- Dbackes 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it "the leaders and best" as the article says or "the leaders and the best", because I recall a "the" in there, which matches the cadence of "the victors of the West" line, and a lot of people on the Internet (via google) think it's "the best" as well, far more than just "best", although using the Internet to figure anything out is pretty dodgy (yes, even wikipedia). Who determines the official song? What's written, somewhere, or how it is sung? This seems pretty problematic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 ( talk) 15:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It's "the leaders and best" officially and that's how it's sung as well; you hold out "lead" for 2 counts and "best" for 4 counts while the rest of the syllables are 1 count. There is no "the" before "best", except during part of the MMB's cadence to the Big House, which is not supposed to be "The Victors" anyways. A lot of people just insert a "the" in there b/c they try to make the verses symmetrical, which they're not. Also, there is no line that says "victors of the west"; it's "champions of the west". The official song is determined by the University, which you can look up the verses to at
http://www.umich.edu/~info/inside.html?http://www.umich.edu/~info/victors.html
BigP14
16:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Wordbuilder, I don't understand your insistence on removing the lyrics. The article does not violate WP:NOT#LYRICS because of the other content, the lyrics are public domain, and they add significantly to the article's value. - TheMile ( talk) 04:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
From a discussion on merging on the Talk:University of Michigan page: As a song The Victors is notable without even being placed into the category of Fight Songs. It was named in Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Fight_songs as an example of a notable fight song. The article itself has a ref from the New York Times. Template:Big Ten fight songs is one of many places that refer to the song and other Big Ten songs directly. The sports articles use a template similar to Template:NCAAFootballSchool where the fight song has its own link. Group29 ( talk) 22:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
University of Michigan is not represented with a project at Category:WikiProject Universities. Please comment at Talk:University_of_Michigan#Should_University_of_Michigan_have_a_project.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 02:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I brought this statement to the talk page to get a better understanding if there might be some confusion as to just what is suppose to be expressed. It would appear that two different points are being made in the same statement: "The lyrics are unusual for a fight song, in that the typical fight song exhorts its team to play well and win, whereas "The Victors" is sung in celebration of a win rather than as an act to encourage success."
I thought it best to have the reaction of those that come from that environment to get across the nuances that might be missing in the conscious expressions but understood subconsciously by UM's in the know. I am confused about the lyrics being unique or the song being used in a unique manner after a decisive move? The other statement about use of the song certainly makes it seem as if it is used in more than after decisive actions? 76.170.88.72 ( talk) 08:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 11 January 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Response to Pentawing: Restored parody. It's traditional, all right, and part of the school's history. This was being sung in the dorms (East Quad, West Quad) 1979-84; confirmed by alums as having ben sung in the 50s. And I have two degrees from Michigan, thanks. Adamdavis
The melody of the fight song is very similar to the trio section from The Spirit of Liberty March. (not Hail to the Spirit of Liberty by Sousa) This march appears on the Karussells of Europe recording. At one point, the University of Michigan article had a note that it was George (Geo) Rosey's and was copyrighted earlier in 1898. However, I can find no corroborating data, including searching the Library of Congress.
These states constituted the former Northwest Territory: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Is not somewhat probable that -- "Champions of the NorthWest" simply wouldn't scan, and was shortened by the songwriter to "West"? 66.65.76.15 21:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
The page says "The phrase "champions of the west" is often misunderstood", but does not say misunderstood as what, and so reads poorly. If it is often misunderstood, then, since it's so often maybe someone has an example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 ( talk) 15:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is true that the specific reference to "champions of the West" refers to (or very probably anyway) the common name for the athletic conference, but it begs the question (to a small extant) as to how the conference got that name. The 20th and 21st century definition of the "west" is completely different than the 19th century definition. Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc, were "the West." See for example Theodore Roosevelt's The Winning of the West which is about territory east of the Mississippi, not what we nowadays call "the West." There are many other examples in the literature of the day that make this fact clear. What we in the 21st century call "the West" was called "the Far West" (see Volume 4 of Roosevelt). Roosevelt's work was written in 1889, and "the Victors" was written in 1898. LaurentianShield ( talk) 21:13, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
The U of M Men's Glee Club references the Sousa claim when introducing The Victors in its concerts; it did when I was there in the late 60s and early 70s and to the best of my knowledge still does now. I'd always assumed that the history was internal lore handed down from when it happened; the Glee Club has long had close ties to the School of Music and Sousa had close ties to the U of M, particularly in the years 1915-1926 when the Director of the Marching Band was Wilfred Wilson, who was a close friend (see http://mmb.music.umich.edu/history/wilson.asp, retrieved 10/25/09). It seems reinforced by Sousa refusing Wilson's request to write a march for the U of M Band, saying that they already had a great one (see the same reference). Bethunch ( talk) 03:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I am wondering about the claim that sousa stated The Victors was the greatest college fight song. I have seen this in numerous places stating that he said this about On Wisconsin. A google search shows pretty much 50/50 either way. Is the quote provided in any context in the prowler or is just the standard "Sousa said it was the best" remark that I see everywhere? If the latter is the case, it should probably be removed from the article. -- Dbackes 16:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it "the leaders and best" as the article says or "the leaders and the best", because I recall a "the" in there, which matches the cadence of "the victors of the West" line, and a lot of people on the Internet (via google) think it's "the best" as well, far more than just "best", although using the Internet to figure anything out is pretty dodgy (yes, even wikipedia). Who determines the official song? What's written, somewhere, or how it is sung? This seems pretty problematic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.151.216 ( talk) 15:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It's "the leaders and best" officially and that's how it's sung as well; you hold out "lead" for 2 counts and "best" for 4 counts while the rest of the syllables are 1 count. There is no "the" before "best", except during part of the MMB's cadence to the Big House, which is not supposed to be "The Victors" anyways. A lot of people just insert a "the" in there b/c they try to make the verses symmetrical, which they're not. Also, there is no line that says "victors of the west"; it's "champions of the west". The official song is determined by the University, which you can look up the verses to at
http://www.umich.edu/~info/inside.html?http://www.umich.edu/~info/victors.html
BigP14
16:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Wordbuilder, I don't understand your insistence on removing the lyrics. The article does not violate WP:NOT#LYRICS because of the other content, the lyrics are public domain, and they add significantly to the article's value. - TheMile ( talk) 04:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
From a discussion on merging on the Talk:University of Michigan page: As a song The Victors is notable without even being placed into the category of Fight Songs. It was named in Wikipedia:Centralized_discussion/Fight_songs as an example of a notable fight song. The article itself has a ref from the New York Times. Template:Big Ten fight songs is one of many places that refer to the song and other Big Ten songs directly. The sports articles use a template similar to Template:NCAAFootballSchool where the fight song has its own link. Group29 ( talk) 22:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
University of Michigan is not represented with a project at Category:WikiProject Universities. Please comment at Talk:University_of_Michigan#Should_University_of_Michigan_have_a_project.-- TonyTheTiger ( T/ C/ BIO/ WP:CHICAGO/ WP:FOUR) 02:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I brought this statement to the talk page to get a better understanding if there might be some confusion as to just what is suppose to be expressed. It would appear that two different points are being made in the same statement: "The lyrics are unusual for a fight song, in that the typical fight song exhorts its team to play well and win, whereas "The Victors" is sung in celebration of a win rather than as an act to encourage success."
I thought it best to have the reaction of those that come from that environment to get across the nuances that might be missing in the conscious expressions but understood subconsciously by UM's in the know. I am confused about the lyrics being unique or the song being used in a unique manner after a decisive move? The other statement about use of the song certainly makes it seem as if it is used in more than after decisive actions? 76.170.88.72 ( talk) 08:29, 13 August 2014 (UTC)