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These two sections seem to be mixed up. Details of the original publication are poor, and mixed up with later details. Also, a couple of undistinguished editions get disproportionate coverage. I suspect the original author of that section was referring to the books in front of him. Can the publication history be cleaned up, without stealing unduly from the "Note on the Text" in the 1994 edition? A complete publishing history would need an entire book in itself - we need to hit the high points. Special bindings and presentations only need a brief mention. :: Didactylos 18:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Tolkien did not consider LOTR to be his magnum opus; he bestowed that honour upon The Silmarillion (as the J. R. R. Tolkien article states, "he regarded it as the most important of his works"). However, most people would probably consider LOTR to be his greatest work, and it is almost certainly the most popular. How do we stand here? I would follow the author: LOTR is a (fairly) simple story, whereas The Silmarillion is an entire legendarium. Adding {{ dubious}}. Hairy Dude 21:03, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Definitely Silmarillion - that is also the one that he devoted most time for. Tolkien's word should be what we base this article on. However, the simplicity of the story should not be a factor in this. (As the Silmarillion was published after his death, surely it is a 'Post Mortem Magnum Opus'?) Ck lostsword 21:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Point taken - possible revision: Whilst LotR is the most popular of his works, JRR Tolkien did not consider it to be his magnum opus; he bestowed that honour upon the Silmarillion. Whilst LotR could be considered as a mere story and a literary venture, the Silmarillion is an entire legendarium, which provides the historical and linguistic context for the more popular work. Ck lostsword 16:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This (and other references) represents written proof of the fact that the Silmarillion was Tolkien's greatest work. Although I can see the basic grounding for your 'dubious' comment, there is plenty of evidence to support the comment previously included. Ck lostsword 20:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
If people are going to be this fanatical about citing sources on an issue that is well known by those familiar with the legendarium, we need someone with a copy of The History of Middle-earth to quote chapter and verse. Sadly that can't be me. Hairy Dude 20:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it really up to the author of a work to solely determine if it is his magnum opus? 68.71.35.93 20:21, 14 February 2006. Referring to wikipedia itself you will get this definition of magnum opus "Magnum opus, from the Latin meaning great work, refers to the best or most renowned achievement of an author, artist, or composer". (UTC)
I came across a relevant quotation: "The sequel, The Lord of the Rings, much the largest, and I hope also in proportion the best, of the entire cycle, concludes the whole business..." Letters #131 (pg 159). The 'cycle' and 'business' referred to are the entirety of Tolkien's 'Middle-earth mythology' from The Silmarillion through LotR. Thus, at least in this case, Tolkien stated that he hoped LotR to be his best work - specifically in comparison to The Silmarillion. That said, it is also clear that he went to great lengths in trying to get Silm published. -- CBDunkerson 01:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The dispute has been in the article for almost four months now. Can we please either agree to leave it as is and remove the dispution tag or to delete the comment on the whole as proposed by Ck_lostsword? I would prefer the latter but some sort of agreement needs to be reached. SorryGuy 21:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Just made a number of improvements, including:
Some odd things I noted, without changing:
Hairy Dude 03:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I speak for everyone when I say... HUH???---- Anthony Orzel 16:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It is an allusion to what was said by Tolkien, that orcs are an evil warping of Elves. The problem with that statement is that I can find no written base in academic writings or authoritative by Tolkien. This is because I live in Poland, and it's difficult to obtain additional material. Orcs are definitely an allusion to armies created by Hitler and Stalin, among others. Their power (as a unit) to forge unquestional obedience and fanatical loyalty clearly allude to those of Sauron's.
While it's true that JRRT was born in South Africa, I'm removing it from the first line of this article. Tolkien lived in SA only until he was three; his formative years and all his professional years were spent in England. Listing South Africa first seems inappropriately misleading.
At the end of The Return of the King, Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Elrond etc. all went on the last Elven ship to the Undying Lands. Does anyone know what happens to them when they go there? Do dead peoples spirits go to the Undying Lands?-- Anthony Orzel 16:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Does Sam go to The Undying Lands because Rose Cotton died and he wanted to see Frodo again? When Sam enters The Undying Lands, what effect does it have on him?(He's mortal so he can't turn immortal, but also he doesn't need any healing.)-- Anthony Orzel 18:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Gimli's "love affair" with the lady Galadriel is not really an affair at all. Their relationship has its roots in the idea of courtly love, a medeival concept that went hand-in-hand with that of chivalry. I think this concept would have appealed to Tolkien immensely. To put things quickly, courtly love is the idea that a knight would ask for a lady's favor, and put himself in her service. She may give him a token of her grace (a handkerchief or something else). He would guard here and respect her above all other women. These knights usually remained unmarried, but the lady could be. An example of this is Lancelot and Guinevere in the tales of King Arthur.
from Csernica's edit summary: "(rv. Tolkien was quite clear that the world of the story is supposed to be the real earth. I can dig up references later if you insist.)"
Anybody who reads Tolkien's intro to The Fellowship of the Ring will see that the novels are, in fact, set on the "real earth", if not the one we recognize today. Tolkien was very clear on this. However, be careful who you tell that, as it could be misunderstood and seriously mess up the fanbase.
It can be deduced internally within the tales of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that the setting is from a bygone era of our own past. The disclaimer that these are fictional tales should be understood by any sane person. LotR 21:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know any details what happened in Middle-Earth (eg. What did King Elessar did in his reign? Anthony Orzel 18:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel this is appropriate to discuss, following contributor MartinMcCann's addition of an alternate link at the top of the page to a page for Sauron... Whom I guess most of us think of as the "lord" - but has anyone thought of the one ring itself as the lord of all rings? And should we address this with another alternate link at the top? I know it sounds like overdoing it, but I thought it at least merits some quick discussion. Joshyoua 14:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, actually, it's quite logical to think of the Lord of the Rings as of the One Ring itself; after all, it's said in "One ring to rule them all". The one who rules the others is a lord, isn't he? -- Sandius 22:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I was referring to Gandalf saying, "Indeed I spoke of them once to you; for the Black Riders are the Ringwraiths, the Nine Servants of the Lord of the Rings." FotR, Many Meetings (emphasis added). This reference is clear enough, but in the index Tolkien references (see 'Lord of the Rings' entry) and redirects to 'Sauron'. -- CBDunkerson 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of twaddle here (to put it bluntly) and I'm pretty sure that most of it constitutes original research since it presents itself as a straightforward analysis with no references. Even if it's sourced, it presents only a single POV where multiple lines of analysis ought to be mentioned from various sources if it is to be done at all. I'm inclined to cut it drastically. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
If you've noticed, LOTR has symbolism that J.R.R. Tolkien didn't even know he put into his trilogy. It's like Narnia, cause things in Narnia represent stuff. Plus If you didn't know, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were actually friends and it was C.S. Lewis that converted J.R.R. Tolkien to a christian, so don't you think these things should be mentioned?
Actually, that is not the case. It was Lewis who was converted by Tolkien. Lewis began his life as a Puritan, and then became an Atheist. It was only after long discussions with Tolkien (on the idea of Christianity as a "true myth") that Lewis began to seriously reconsider Christianity. As far as symbolism goes, both Tolkien and Lewis strongly objected to the idea of their books being considered as direct allegories. See especially the forward written by Tolkien in the LOTR. For a further development of this topic, see the book “Tolkien, Man and Myth” by Joseph Pearce. -- Kingjon 17:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Is this really necessary? Isn't it largely redundant with Template:Lotr, at least as far as acutal characters and those likely to have articles written about them? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Removed. We'll see how long that lasts. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has many Fair-use images, which all need clean-up and not a single one has a fair use rationale. You also have a section with a cleanup tag, yes. Fix these problems and renominate. Cheers, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 17:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the adjective "f*ing" to the Dyson quote, and it was reverted. My instinct was to revert too, but I did a little searching first. It seems to be the actual quote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2001/11/24/bfanw24.xml
The decision as to whether the word is to be spelled out, ***ed, or just eliminated, I'll leave to regular editors at this page. Rizzleboffin 20:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The list looked as if it was getting unwieldy, so I had a go at organizing it. Along the way I cut out a couple of message boards and foreign-language sites. Sites I was not familiar with I categorized according to the descriptions given, so I may have miscategorized some. If so I apologize, and please don't hesitate to make corrections. "Informational" was something of a catch-all, and there may be a better way to put it. (Some of the links appeared to be used as sources for the article. It would be better to cite them inline instead.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was listed for cleanup and I have been attempting to do so. As is it is much better than it was before. However the last two paragraphs of the section are irksome. They do not really fit there yet there are somehwta informational and should probably stay in the article. So would anyone protest if I made a new section called derivatives? Or if not what do you all think of deleting it outright? SorryGuy 03:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Our praise section of the article have also recently been reworked. It reads much nicer now. The quote gallery has always been unessasary and now that there is substantial content would anyone objection to a transwiki of the quotes from there? It would make the article look much nicer I think. SorryGuy 03:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The current Synopsis is far too small. It has been a long time since I actually read the books and while I am using some references to try and make it longer an expert on the story would be nice. We need some more content in there. Sorry Guy 03:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
There are a few too many indiscriminate general references for my liking.
The publication history is a bit bald, there should be a fuller description of the changes to the Second Edition and also the recent 2004 edition.
Thu 08:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone provide a print reference for the Ace Books LotR publication controversy? I'm editing the Ace Books article and would like a good print reference for this. My usual SF bibliographic references have failed me on this one, though the Tuck Encyclopedia does mention the Ace edition and then calls the Ballantine edition the "first authorized pa. ed." (i.e. paperback edition). I have found this url: Lord of the Rings: The Tale of a Text for an online reference but would like a printed reference if anyone knows of one. And of course it could be added here too. Thanks for any help. Mike Christie 04:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Are their no critics who like it ?
Seems like we have "Praise" - polls and sales; "Critcism" - quotes from reviewers.
-- Beardo 06:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A. Most actual book reviews for Lord of the Rings appeared during the 1950s. At the time they were not all that well-received. B. The critcism of the books is now well-known as today it is considered strange and as a result finding references for them are easier than for praise. C. Content for reviews are from the 1950s and finding references for them are difficult.
If you can, or if anyone can, find links to positive reviews I will be happy to produce the prose for it. In the meantime I will attempt to cut and summarize the critcism better. Sorry Guy 07:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The English-speaking world is divided into those who have read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and those who are going to read them." — Sunday Times
"Among the greatest works of imaginative fiction of the twentieth century." — Sunday Telegraph
"Here are the beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron." — C.S. Lewis
"J.R.R. Tolkien's epic trilogy remains the ultimate quest, the ultimate battle between good and evil, the ultimate chronicle of stewardship of the earth. Endlessly imitated, it never has been surpassed." — Kansas City Star
"A story magnificently told, with every kind of colour and movement and greatness." — New Statesman
"I wonder how could he have been able to invent all this stuff. It feels more like Tolkien discovered some sort of long-lost scrolls” (Morning Edition. National Public Radio 17 Dec. 2001.).— Peter Jackson
"Intelligence is not determined by what grades or I.Q. you've got - it is determined by whether or not you have read what is, doubtlessly, the greatest fantasy epic ever to be written, in British or International history"; Tom Essex
In this form they can never go into the article but I will soon attempt to reference them and create prose around them. Sorry Guy 07:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Michael Moorcock is demonstratively unable to sustain a plot for more that 100 pages without resorting to nonsense and Deus Ex Machina. I don't know why he's considered a critic worth noting and I don't know how he gets off criticising LOTR.
David Brin is a man who's only book worth remembering was twenty years ago and involved talking dolphins on a starship who mutiny because some of them were really killer whales. If I were him I'd say anything to get attention too.
Sorry if this is harsh. I'm tired of reading sneers about LOTR from people whose qualifications consist largely of wishing they'd written something as successful.
Should we maybe cut off some extra information from this page? I mean for example, do we need so much on the movies when there is another page for it? Maybe also trim off the game section and keep the book section more simple? Also maybe get a few more pictures in here and there. Right now, it seems more like a research essay. -- Steven 00:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
They are asking in the FAC for standardization, when it which used? Can't check if it's right...
Also, should we wikilink the Middle Earth dates in the year part? Judgesurreal777 22:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought there was one live-action film inbetween the animated ones and the Jackson ones. Maybe it was just a TV Movie? (I'm not finding at all on IMDB so I may have gone mad! Maybe it was the hobbit :) ). RN 02:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the introduction to give a better balance. If it is too long and others want to remove stuff, please reinsert it in the appropriate place later in the article. Thanks. Carcharoth 20:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "See also" section, as many are irrelevant and should be linked from the relevant articles, not from here:
Carcharoth 11:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Can people hold off for about 15 minutes while I try and sort out an edit conflict? I'll revert to my last version and then try an incorporate all the edits from the IP address. Carcharoth 11:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Changing the capitalisation of Hobbit/hobbit needs care - see earlier discussion. In particular, this bit: "the man the Hobbits know as "Strider"" makes no sense. Here, "hobbits" refers to four hobbits, rather than the race of Hobbits. Similarly for the bits where Frodo and Bilbo are described as being hobbits. Small 'h', not capital 'H' - though those case are more borderline. Also, quotes from books should preserve the capitalisation used in the latest printing. Carcharoth 12:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Other changes I've made include:
Please discuss here if any problems. Carcharoth 12:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This recently added section seems like it should be cut. Not all of them are really themes and they are all difficult to reference. In addition it is a list instead of prose. Also it adds length to an article which we are attempting to shorten. Is it agreed that it can be cut? Sorry Guy 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The writing and publication sections mention the appendices and maps only in passing. This should be expanded slightly to give more details (especially for the appendices), as is done for the bit about the index. The prologue is mentioned in the backstory part, but again, an extra sentence or two could be added. The Foreword is only mentioned in the "themes" section - there should be something in the publication history about how Tolkien rewrote the Foreword for the 1966 Second Edition - mentioning that this was where he made his famous comments about allegory and applicability. Finally, it should be mentioned that Tolkien did some illustrations for LotR (Doors of Durin, Book of Mazarbul) - some of which were published in the First Edition, some in later editions. Carcharoth 10:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a dubious statement about Saul Zaentz in the article, in the "musical" section: "London-based theatre producer Kevin Wallace and his partner, Saul Zaentz, representing the Tolkien Estate..." - I suspect the original editor meant to say Tolkien Enterprises, instead of the Tolkien Estate. Please can someone confirm or correct this. Thanks. Carcharoth 12:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the back story and synopsis sections are drastically rewritten (they are riddled with errors and misleading statements, and lack balance). Also, a general encyclopedia article should not be seeking only to summarise the plot of the book. It should use that summary to enable the rest of the article to expand on certain areas and explain certain themes. I suggest a much shorter summary, with more detail as and when needed elsewhere. This would integrate the plot into the article a lot more. Also, the summary should present things in the order the reader encounters them, with much of the backstory emerging in the Shadow of the Past chapter, at the Council of Elrond, elsewhere in the book, and in the Appendices. This is lost in the current synopsis style, and the Foreword, Prologue and Appendices are not mentioned at all. Carcharoth 15:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of the references are not to the primary sources. Many of them are to web articles that will have used sources like The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien or the biography by Humphrey Carpenter. I think we should, where possible, replace these website references with ones to Letters or Biography. Carcharoth 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've deposited here a link to the removal of the "Themes" section, so that it can be more easily obtained and re-used elsewhere if needed. Please can people stop deleting potentially useful content without considering where else it could be put, or at least giving a link like this on the talk page: [2].
It needs a lot of tidying up, but could turn into something useful. Carcharoth 06:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I initially created the "Sales, awards and polls" section header to separate out these things from the critical response section of opinions of critics and authors, as these are different things. The sales, awards and polls are facts that can be cited. The opinions of critics and other authors are nothing more than opinions, and they shouldn't be confused with listings of sales statistics, and awards and results of polls. Does anyone support or oppose the separation of these things into separate sections? Carcharoth 08:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed the disambiguation hatnote as the previous version was becoming bloated and unbalanced. A comment at the Featured Article Candidates page pointed out that the hatnote refers to the book, while the article covers much more than just the book. I agree, though I think this is a problem more with the article than the hatnote. It is obvious that the article at the title The Lord of the Rings should be about the book, so there is nothing wrong with the hatnote. The problem then becomes one of balance in the article, and whether this article should say as much about the adaptations as it does. At the moment, it is more of a summary-style article covering both book and adaptations. There could easily be another summary-style article covering all the LotR adaptations on one page - say Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings. That would summarise the material at the main articles. In fact Wikipedia:Summary style is probably required reading before making decisions about how to handle this. What do people think? Carcharoth 08:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
A brief explanation of a recent edit where I removed a "facts" tag: the general style on Wikipedia seems to be to not have references in the lead (or summary) section that would simply be repeated later. The lead section merely summarises the article in an engaging way. See Wikipedia:Lead section. Carcharoth 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's not really a trilogy, because the division into 3 volumes, while common, is arbitrary. But is it a novel or a romance? 222.126.75.68 04:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as we were al speaking about it on our talk pages anyway I agree with Carcharoth that we may as well bring discussion here. Highway has suggested numerous citations in the back story and summary sections of the article. This seemed a little strange to me so I went ahead and looked at other featured books, like The Giver and The Old Man and the Sea where I found that instead of citing each statement when speaking about the books they instead cite the books at the end of the whole article and allow it to apply for the whole article. I believe this style will work well for this article and began to do so. I would guess that we need added the Hobbit as well. Thoughts? Sorry Guy 22:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have added a new batch of references. I have found the genesis peice to be very useful citing it multiple times. What exactly it is though is difficult to know, the reading itself seems to indicate it is a lecture. However it cites multiple citable books. I do not own any of these however I was wondering if you could cite these Carcharoth? If so I think we are good to go on references. Sorry Guy 05:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The influences section is very incomplete. See J._R._R._Tolkien#Writing for a brief summary, this article should expand on it in more detail. As it stands, it looks like LotR is an entirely Catholic allegory with no mention of all the scholarly influences from Old English, Norse, Boethius, etc.. -- Stbalbach 04:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like all those Easter egg links in the last intro paragraph (see Wikipedia:Piped link). I spelled out one and was about to spell them all out when I realized this would make the paragraph look bad. Since all these articles are mentioned (or ought to be mentioned) in the "See Also" section, I guess they don't do any harm, and may in fact be a good idea (since they make it easier for online readers to get to the articles, but don't clutter things up for offline readers). JRM · Talk 18:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A few comments on some recent changes:
What do people think? Carcharoth 09:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the point? TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure as to why we have this piece. It feels rather pointless. Shall we remove it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiki-newbie ( talk • contribs) .
Sorry, I mean the Other Languages thing. Wiki-newbie 18:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section on the historical influences or inspirations for the setting and events of the story? Some parallels seem beyond coincidence: Middle Earth is the Middle Ages; Minas Tirith and Constantinople were both known for their great walls and were both perilously close to threats from the east; etc. National Geographic did a documentary about it, but I haven't watched it:
http://shopngvideos.com/products/BeyondtheMovieTheLordoftheRingsReturnoftheKing-- 130.85.194.154 01:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the "In other languages" section should be restored, with proper formatting. Look at the The Hobbit article. Uthanc 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
As Carcharoth wrote above in Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Disambiguation_hatnote, this article covers a lot more than just the book, so moving more info into other articles might be a good idea. I made some trial The Lord of the Rings and Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings pages. However, the book article sort of looks wrong, with such a huge chunk gone... but other topics have similar pages. Uthanc 09:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the main article, under "critical response", it is suggested that some of the criticisms levelled againt LOTR are in response to Tolkien's perceived ideology rather than the artistic merit of he work. I quote, "It should be noted that most such objections are levelled against the ideology behind the Lord of the Rings, not against the work's artistic merit." I am unsure as to the extent that these can be separated. Art is ideological, intentional or otherwise and it always expresses to the reader/viewer some worldview or se of values. I would suggest that this remark about such negative reviews of LOTR should just be omitted, allowing the idelogy-based criticism to stand by itself, without qualification.
I agree that they are fairly inseparable, but it is generally not a critic's job to rate something poorly just because they do not personally agree with the ideology behind it. --
Tarranon
23:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Literary criticism is the study, discussion, evaluation, and interpretation of literature, not simply about judging the quality of the work, it also involves classifying genres, making comparisons with other cultural works and looking at the relationship between art and life. It is possible to take a sociological perspective within literary criticism so we have, for example, Marxist and feminist criticism. This is also tied up with the nature of aesthetics and why we like what we like. It is perfectly acceptable for a literary critic to criticise a work for its ideology despite acknowledging the value of it's form, structure, language, characterisation and other literary categories. --Voloshinov 20:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence "It should be noted that most such objections are levelled against the perceived ideology behind The Lord of the Rings and of its author, not against the work's artistic merit" For reasons discussed above the politics of a work of art cannot be considered as separate from its artistic merit. --Voloshinov 10:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of beowulf? Beowulf was a huge influence to the Lord of the Rings. I think it should be added to the article. Neokyotodragon 09:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In the movie [Clerks 2], Randal equates the Lord of The Rings movies as being 3 movies about walking. The first movie is demonstrated by Randal taking an exaggerated step while blank-faced. The second by tripping and looking back and down mid-walk. The third consisting of the same walk culminating in a gesture to remove the ring from the finger and toss it downward. I found this analogy to be quite apt , witty, reflective of my attitudes on Lord of The Rings (or at least the movie). I leave this here for others to decide on it's merit for inclusion in this article (mainly as I am unsure where in the article this would best be placed). AnarchyElmo 00:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
So guys, quick question. I'm ready to edit the backstory and synopsis, but I heard once WP:ME wants past tense. How come? Wiki-newbie 16:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
"All articles that cover in-universe material must be in past tense, as decided as a consensus here. Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, Tolkien related articles are an exception, due to the fact that we are discussing more than just plots of novels, we are outlining the history of [what we now intepret as] a fictional world — the novels are written in past tense because they are memoirs meant to explain a mythical past of our Earth, much like the Greek Mythology. Also, take consideration into the fact that many of the information is taken not from the novels, but from informational texts (e.g. The History of Middle-earth)."
"...When discussing the plot of a book, it is customary to use the present tense. However, when discussing history, albeit of a fictional world, it might make more sense to use the past tense. Here, it poses a problem, because the information comes from a book. In any case, the current mix makes for awkward reading." yEvb0 19:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
"Generally I think that the past tense makes sense in this case. Alot of Tolkien's work is written in the past tense and it is ostensibly meant to be a mythical past of our own world. Also, consistently using the present tense when describing events meant to take place millennia apart would seem misleading. Thus I don't think this really fits the 'usual' practice for book plots... at that a good deal of the information on Middle-earth comes from texts which don't have a plot per se." -- CBD ☎ ✉ 23:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
"It's written in past tense because it's from a first-person point of view of a character's memoirs or the like. Plus it's implied it's already happened as the viewer is hearing it. Not to mention the aeons they chronical (i.e. Silmarillion). Past tense certainly seems appropriate." Eluchil 12:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, I fixed it, so we can remain FA. Wiki-newbie 16:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Look guys, when describing the plot of a novel, keep it in present tense. If you want to write stuff on characters or histories etc, keep it to the project. Wiki-newbie 17:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
If there is not a reply within a day (I take it as unreplied answers to disputes when there is a majority means that the issue is settled), I am going to revert the back story and synopsis into past tense because if you consider this dispute, the majority is for past tense. (Not trying to be hasty, but it is best if this issue is settled quickly.) — Mir l e n 20:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
“ | Conversely, discussion of history is usually written in the past tense and thus 'fictional history' may be presented in that way as well. | ” |
I'll reach a compromise: keep the actual story synopsis in present tense, considering that's how Tolkien tells his story like any other author, but work on backstory with footnotes to the actual description eg. the war of the Last Alliance within 'Shadow of the Past' and 'Council of Elrond'. Wiki-newbie 08:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I know that they did not all need to be deleted, but, until we can establish what links need to be here, i deleted them. There were what, 20 of them? Scholarship links are not appropriate for the main article. - KaoBear (talk) 11:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As there was no 'Characters' item in the Contents, I moved Books below the line referencing the character page and added a sectional header so that the Character link can be more easily found. Pejorative.majeure 09:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The three volumes definitely aren't novels in their own right; but should we use "novel" for the whole book or just "book" and/or "story"? (Definitely not "trilogy".) As said above and in the article, it's called a novel very often though Tolkien objected to the term, preferring "heroic romance" (the distinction between heroic and "romantic romance" has already been explained in the article). TIME and Wikipedia itself uses novel, while the Middle-earth WikiProject instructs that we use "the words "story" (for the story as a whole), "book", "books" (both for LotR, its volumes and the 6 books — but make clear which you are referring to), "volume", "volumes" (for the three volumes of LotR)." ( Me:S#Terminology) Uthanc 03:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 9 |
These two sections seem to be mixed up. Details of the original publication are poor, and mixed up with later details. Also, a couple of undistinguished editions get disproportionate coverage. I suspect the original author of that section was referring to the books in front of him. Can the publication history be cleaned up, without stealing unduly from the "Note on the Text" in the 1994 edition? A complete publishing history would need an entire book in itself - we need to hit the high points. Special bindings and presentations only need a brief mention. :: Didactylos 18:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Tolkien did not consider LOTR to be his magnum opus; he bestowed that honour upon The Silmarillion (as the J. R. R. Tolkien article states, "he regarded it as the most important of his works"). However, most people would probably consider LOTR to be his greatest work, and it is almost certainly the most popular. How do we stand here? I would follow the author: LOTR is a (fairly) simple story, whereas The Silmarillion is an entire legendarium. Adding {{ dubious}}. Hairy Dude 21:03, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Definitely Silmarillion - that is also the one that he devoted most time for. Tolkien's word should be what we base this article on. However, the simplicity of the story should not be a factor in this. (As the Silmarillion was published after his death, surely it is a 'Post Mortem Magnum Opus'?) Ck lostsword 21:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Point taken - possible revision: Whilst LotR is the most popular of his works, JRR Tolkien did not consider it to be his magnum opus; he bestowed that honour upon the Silmarillion. Whilst LotR could be considered as a mere story and a literary venture, the Silmarillion is an entire legendarium, which provides the historical and linguistic context for the more popular work. Ck lostsword 16:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This (and other references) represents written proof of the fact that the Silmarillion was Tolkien's greatest work. Although I can see the basic grounding for your 'dubious' comment, there is plenty of evidence to support the comment previously included. Ck lostsword 20:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
If people are going to be this fanatical about citing sources on an issue that is well known by those familiar with the legendarium, we need someone with a copy of The History of Middle-earth to quote chapter and verse. Sadly that can't be me. Hairy Dude 20:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it really up to the author of a work to solely determine if it is his magnum opus? 68.71.35.93 20:21, 14 February 2006. Referring to wikipedia itself you will get this definition of magnum opus "Magnum opus, from the Latin meaning great work, refers to the best or most renowned achievement of an author, artist, or composer". (UTC)
I came across a relevant quotation: "The sequel, The Lord of the Rings, much the largest, and I hope also in proportion the best, of the entire cycle, concludes the whole business..." Letters #131 (pg 159). The 'cycle' and 'business' referred to are the entirety of Tolkien's 'Middle-earth mythology' from The Silmarillion through LotR. Thus, at least in this case, Tolkien stated that he hoped LotR to be his best work - specifically in comparison to The Silmarillion. That said, it is also clear that he went to great lengths in trying to get Silm published. -- CBDunkerson 01:04, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
The dispute has been in the article for almost four months now. Can we please either agree to leave it as is and remove the dispution tag or to delete the comment on the whole as proposed by Ck_lostsword? I would prefer the latter but some sort of agreement needs to be reached. SorryGuy 21:18, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Just made a number of improvements, including:
Some odd things I noted, without changing:
Hairy Dude 03:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I speak for everyone when I say... HUH???---- Anthony Orzel 16:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
It is an allusion to what was said by Tolkien, that orcs are an evil warping of Elves. The problem with that statement is that I can find no written base in academic writings or authoritative by Tolkien. This is because I live in Poland, and it's difficult to obtain additional material. Orcs are definitely an allusion to armies created by Hitler and Stalin, among others. Their power (as a unit) to forge unquestional obedience and fanatical loyalty clearly allude to those of Sauron's.
While it's true that JRRT was born in South Africa, I'm removing it from the first line of this article. Tolkien lived in SA only until he was three; his formative years and all his professional years were spent in England. Listing South Africa first seems inappropriately misleading.
At the end of The Return of the King, Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Elrond etc. all went on the last Elven ship to the Undying Lands. Does anyone know what happens to them when they go there? Do dead peoples spirits go to the Undying Lands?-- Anthony Orzel 16:13, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Does Sam go to The Undying Lands because Rose Cotton died and he wanted to see Frodo again? When Sam enters The Undying Lands, what effect does it have on him?(He's mortal so he can't turn immortal, but also he doesn't need any healing.)-- Anthony Orzel 18:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Gimli's "love affair" with the lady Galadriel is not really an affair at all. Their relationship has its roots in the idea of courtly love, a medeival concept that went hand-in-hand with that of chivalry. I think this concept would have appealed to Tolkien immensely. To put things quickly, courtly love is the idea that a knight would ask for a lady's favor, and put himself in her service. She may give him a token of her grace (a handkerchief or something else). He would guard here and respect her above all other women. These knights usually remained unmarried, but the lady could be. An example of this is Lancelot and Guinevere in the tales of King Arthur.
from Csernica's edit summary: "(rv. Tolkien was quite clear that the world of the story is supposed to be the real earth. I can dig up references later if you insist.)"
Anybody who reads Tolkien's intro to The Fellowship of the Ring will see that the novels are, in fact, set on the "real earth", if not the one we recognize today. Tolkien was very clear on this. However, be careful who you tell that, as it could be misunderstood and seriously mess up the fanbase.
It can be deduced internally within the tales of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings that the setting is from a bygone era of our own past. The disclaimer that these are fictional tales should be understood by any sane person. LotR 21:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know any details what happened in Middle-Earth (eg. What did King Elessar did in his reign? Anthony Orzel 18:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel this is appropriate to discuss, following contributor MartinMcCann's addition of an alternate link at the top of the page to a page for Sauron... Whom I guess most of us think of as the "lord" - but has anyone thought of the one ring itself as the lord of all rings? And should we address this with another alternate link at the top? I know it sounds like overdoing it, but I thought it at least merits some quick discussion. Joshyoua 14:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, actually, it's quite logical to think of the Lord of the Rings as of the One Ring itself; after all, it's said in "One ring to rule them all". The one who rules the others is a lord, isn't he? -- Sandius 22:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I was referring to Gandalf saying, "Indeed I spoke of them once to you; for the Black Riders are the Ringwraiths, the Nine Servants of the Lord of the Rings." FotR, Many Meetings (emphasis added). This reference is clear enough, but in the index Tolkien references (see 'Lord of the Rings' entry) and redirects to 'Sauron'. -- CBDunkerson 01:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of twaddle here (to put it bluntly) and I'm pretty sure that most of it constitutes original research since it presents itself as a straightforward analysis with no references. Even if it's sourced, it presents only a single POV where multiple lines of analysis ought to be mentioned from various sources if it is to be done at all. I'm inclined to cut it drastically. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:28, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
If you've noticed, LOTR has symbolism that J.R.R. Tolkien didn't even know he put into his trilogy. It's like Narnia, cause things in Narnia represent stuff. Plus If you didn't know, C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were actually friends and it was C.S. Lewis that converted J.R.R. Tolkien to a christian, so don't you think these things should be mentioned?
Actually, that is not the case. It was Lewis who was converted by Tolkien. Lewis began his life as a Puritan, and then became an Atheist. It was only after long discussions with Tolkien (on the idea of Christianity as a "true myth") that Lewis began to seriously reconsider Christianity. As far as symbolism goes, both Tolkien and Lewis strongly objected to the idea of their books being considered as direct allegories. See especially the forward written by Tolkien in the LOTR. For a further development of this topic, see the book “Tolkien, Man and Myth” by Joseph Pearce. -- Kingjon 17:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Is this really necessary? Isn't it largely redundant with Template:Lotr, at least as far as acutal characters and those likely to have articles written about them? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Removed. We'll see how long that lasts. Christopher Parham (talk) 07:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
This article has many Fair-use images, which all need clean-up and not a single one has a fair use rationale. You also have a section with a cleanup tag, yes. Fix these problems and renominate. Cheers, H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 17:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Someone added the adjective "f*ing" to the Dyson quote, and it was reverted. My instinct was to revert too, but I did a little searching first. It seems to be the actual quote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2001/11/24/bfanw24.xml
The decision as to whether the word is to be spelled out, ***ed, or just eliminated, I'll leave to regular editors at this page. Rizzleboffin 20:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The list looked as if it was getting unwieldy, so I had a go at organizing it. Along the way I cut out a couple of message boards and foreign-language sites. Sites I was not familiar with I categorized according to the descriptions given, so I may have miscategorized some. If so I apologize, and please don't hesitate to make corrections. "Informational" was something of a catch-all, and there may be a better way to put it. (Some of the links appeared to be used as sources for the article. It would be better to cite them inline instead.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
This section was listed for cleanup and I have been attempting to do so. As is it is much better than it was before. However the last two paragraphs of the section are irksome. They do not really fit there yet there are somehwta informational and should probably stay in the article. So would anyone protest if I made a new section called derivatives? Or if not what do you all think of deleting it outright? SorryGuy 03:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Our praise section of the article have also recently been reworked. It reads much nicer now. The quote gallery has always been unessasary and now that there is substantial content would anyone objection to a transwiki of the quotes from there? It would make the article look much nicer I think. SorryGuy 03:59, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
The current Synopsis is far too small. It has been a long time since I actually read the books and while I am using some references to try and make it longer an expert on the story would be nice. We need some more content in there. Sorry Guy 03:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
There are a few too many indiscriminate general references for my liking.
The publication history is a bit bald, there should be a fuller description of the changes to the Second Edition and also the recent 2004 edition.
Thu 08:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone provide a print reference for the Ace Books LotR publication controversy? I'm editing the Ace Books article and would like a good print reference for this. My usual SF bibliographic references have failed me on this one, though the Tuck Encyclopedia does mention the Ace edition and then calls the Ballantine edition the "first authorized pa. ed." (i.e. paperback edition). I have found this url: Lord of the Rings: The Tale of a Text for an online reference but would like a printed reference if anyone knows of one. And of course it could be added here too. Thanks for any help. Mike Christie 04:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Are their no critics who like it ?
Seems like we have "Praise" - polls and sales; "Critcism" - quotes from reviewers.
-- Beardo 06:59, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A. Most actual book reviews for Lord of the Rings appeared during the 1950s. At the time they were not all that well-received. B. The critcism of the books is now well-known as today it is considered strange and as a result finding references for them are easier than for praise. C. Content for reviews are from the 1950s and finding references for them are difficult.
If you can, or if anyone can, find links to positive reviews I will be happy to produce the prose for it. In the meantime I will attempt to cut and summarize the critcism better. Sorry Guy 07:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The English-speaking world is divided into those who have read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and those who are going to read them." — Sunday Times
"Among the greatest works of imaginative fiction of the twentieth century." — Sunday Telegraph
"Here are the beauties which pierce like swords or burn like cold iron." — C.S. Lewis
"J.R.R. Tolkien's epic trilogy remains the ultimate quest, the ultimate battle between good and evil, the ultimate chronicle of stewardship of the earth. Endlessly imitated, it never has been surpassed." — Kansas City Star
"A story magnificently told, with every kind of colour and movement and greatness." — New Statesman
"I wonder how could he have been able to invent all this stuff. It feels more like Tolkien discovered some sort of long-lost scrolls” (Morning Edition. National Public Radio 17 Dec. 2001.).— Peter Jackson
"Intelligence is not determined by what grades or I.Q. you've got - it is determined by whether or not you have read what is, doubtlessly, the greatest fantasy epic ever to be written, in British or International history"; Tom Essex
In this form they can never go into the article but I will soon attempt to reference them and create prose around them. Sorry Guy 07:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Michael Moorcock is demonstratively unable to sustain a plot for more that 100 pages without resorting to nonsense and Deus Ex Machina. I don't know why he's considered a critic worth noting and I don't know how he gets off criticising LOTR.
David Brin is a man who's only book worth remembering was twenty years ago and involved talking dolphins on a starship who mutiny because some of them were really killer whales. If I were him I'd say anything to get attention too.
Sorry if this is harsh. I'm tired of reading sneers about LOTR from people whose qualifications consist largely of wishing they'd written something as successful.
Should we maybe cut off some extra information from this page? I mean for example, do we need so much on the movies when there is another page for it? Maybe also trim off the game section and keep the book section more simple? Also maybe get a few more pictures in here and there. Right now, it seems more like a research essay. -- Steven 00:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
They are asking in the FAC for standardization, when it which used? Can't check if it's right...
Also, should we wikilink the Middle Earth dates in the year part? Judgesurreal777 22:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought there was one live-action film inbetween the animated ones and the Jackson ones. Maybe it was just a TV Movie? (I'm not finding at all on IMDB so I may have gone mad! Maybe it was the hobbit :) ). RN 02:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the introduction to give a better balance. If it is too long and others want to remove stuff, please reinsert it in the appropriate place later in the article. Thanks. Carcharoth 20:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "See also" section, as many are irrelevant and should be linked from the relevant articles, not from here:
Carcharoth 11:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Can people hold off for about 15 minutes while I try and sort out an edit conflict? I'll revert to my last version and then try an incorporate all the edits from the IP address. Carcharoth 11:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Changing the capitalisation of Hobbit/hobbit needs care - see earlier discussion. In particular, this bit: "the man the Hobbits know as "Strider"" makes no sense. Here, "hobbits" refers to four hobbits, rather than the race of Hobbits. Similarly for the bits where Frodo and Bilbo are described as being hobbits. Small 'h', not capital 'H' - though those case are more borderline. Also, quotes from books should preserve the capitalisation used in the latest printing. Carcharoth 12:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Other changes I've made include:
Please discuss here if any problems. Carcharoth 12:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
This recently added section seems like it should be cut. Not all of them are really themes and they are all difficult to reference. In addition it is a list instead of prose. Also it adds length to an article which we are attempting to shorten. Is it agreed that it can be cut? Sorry Guy 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
The writing and publication sections mention the appendices and maps only in passing. This should be expanded slightly to give more details (especially for the appendices), as is done for the bit about the index. The prologue is mentioned in the backstory part, but again, an extra sentence or two could be added. The Foreword is only mentioned in the "themes" section - there should be something in the publication history about how Tolkien rewrote the Foreword for the 1966 Second Edition - mentioning that this was where he made his famous comments about allegory and applicability. Finally, it should be mentioned that Tolkien did some illustrations for LotR (Doors of Durin, Book of Mazarbul) - some of which were published in the First Edition, some in later editions. Carcharoth 10:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a dubious statement about Saul Zaentz in the article, in the "musical" section: "London-based theatre producer Kevin Wallace and his partner, Saul Zaentz, representing the Tolkien Estate..." - I suspect the original editor meant to say Tolkien Enterprises, instead of the Tolkien Estate. Please can someone confirm or correct this. Thanks. Carcharoth 12:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that the back story and synopsis sections are drastically rewritten (they are riddled with errors and misleading statements, and lack balance). Also, a general encyclopedia article should not be seeking only to summarise the plot of the book. It should use that summary to enable the rest of the article to expand on certain areas and explain certain themes. I suggest a much shorter summary, with more detail as and when needed elsewhere. This would integrate the plot into the article a lot more. Also, the summary should present things in the order the reader encounters them, with much of the backstory emerging in the Shadow of the Past chapter, at the Council of Elrond, elsewhere in the book, and in the Appendices. This is lost in the current synopsis style, and the Foreword, Prologue and Appendices are not mentioned at all. Carcharoth 15:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of the references are not to the primary sources. Many of them are to web articles that will have used sources like The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien or the biography by Humphrey Carpenter. I think we should, where possible, replace these website references with ones to Letters or Biography. Carcharoth 16:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I've deposited here a link to the removal of the "Themes" section, so that it can be more easily obtained and re-used elsewhere if needed. Please can people stop deleting potentially useful content without considering where else it could be put, or at least giving a link like this on the talk page: [2].
It needs a lot of tidying up, but could turn into something useful. Carcharoth 06:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I initially created the "Sales, awards and polls" section header to separate out these things from the critical response section of opinions of critics and authors, as these are different things. The sales, awards and polls are facts that can be cited. The opinions of critics and other authors are nothing more than opinions, and they shouldn't be confused with listings of sales statistics, and awards and results of polls. Does anyone support or oppose the separation of these things into separate sections? Carcharoth 08:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed the disambiguation hatnote as the previous version was becoming bloated and unbalanced. A comment at the Featured Article Candidates page pointed out that the hatnote refers to the book, while the article covers much more than just the book. I agree, though I think this is a problem more with the article than the hatnote. It is obvious that the article at the title The Lord of the Rings should be about the book, so there is nothing wrong with the hatnote. The problem then becomes one of balance in the article, and whether this article should say as much about the adaptations as it does. At the moment, it is more of a summary-style article covering both book and adaptations. There could easily be another summary-style article covering all the LotR adaptations on one page - say Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings. That would summarise the material at the main articles. In fact Wikipedia:Summary style is probably required reading before making decisions about how to handle this. What do people think? Carcharoth 08:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
A brief explanation of a recent edit where I removed a "facts" tag: the general style on Wikipedia seems to be to not have references in the lead (or summary) section that would simply be repeated later. The lead section merely summarises the article in an engaging way. See Wikipedia:Lead section. Carcharoth 10:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's not really a trilogy, because the division into 3 volumes, while common, is arbitrary. But is it a novel or a romance? 222.126.75.68 04:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Seeing as we were al speaking about it on our talk pages anyway I agree with Carcharoth that we may as well bring discussion here. Highway has suggested numerous citations in the back story and summary sections of the article. This seemed a little strange to me so I went ahead and looked at other featured books, like The Giver and The Old Man and the Sea where I found that instead of citing each statement when speaking about the books they instead cite the books at the end of the whole article and allow it to apply for the whole article. I believe this style will work well for this article and began to do so. I would guess that we need added the Hobbit as well. Thoughts? Sorry Guy 22:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I have added a new batch of references. I have found the genesis peice to be very useful citing it multiple times. What exactly it is though is difficult to know, the reading itself seems to indicate it is a lecture. However it cites multiple citable books. I do not own any of these however I was wondering if you could cite these Carcharoth? If so I think we are good to go on references. Sorry Guy 05:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The influences section is very incomplete. See J._R._R._Tolkien#Writing for a brief summary, this article should expand on it in more detail. As it stands, it looks like LotR is an entirely Catholic allegory with no mention of all the scholarly influences from Old English, Norse, Boethius, etc.. -- Stbalbach 04:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure I like all those Easter egg links in the last intro paragraph (see Wikipedia:Piped link). I spelled out one and was about to spell them all out when I realized this would make the paragraph look bad. Since all these articles are mentioned (or ought to be mentioned) in the "See Also" section, I guess they don't do any harm, and may in fact be a good idea (since they make it easier for online readers to get to the articles, but don't clutter things up for offline readers). JRM · Talk 18:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
A few comments on some recent changes:
What do people think? Carcharoth 09:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
What's the point? TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm unsure as to why we have this piece. It feels rather pointless. Shall we remove it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiki-newbie ( talk • contribs) .
Sorry, I mean the Other Languages thing. Wiki-newbie 18:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't there be a section on the historical influences or inspirations for the setting and events of the story? Some parallels seem beyond coincidence: Middle Earth is the Middle Ages; Minas Tirith and Constantinople were both known for their great walls and were both perilously close to threats from the east; etc. National Geographic did a documentary about it, but I haven't watched it:
http://shopngvideos.com/products/BeyondtheMovieTheLordoftheRingsReturnoftheKing-- 130.85.194.154 01:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the "In other languages" section should be restored, with proper formatting. Look at the The Hobbit article. Uthanc 03:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
As Carcharoth wrote above in Talk:The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Disambiguation_hatnote, this article covers a lot more than just the book, so moving more info into other articles might be a good idea. I made some trial The Lord of the Rings and Adaptations of The Lord of the Rings pages. However, the book article sort of looks wrong, with such a huge chunk gone... but other topics have similar pages. Uthanc 09:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the main article, under "critical response", it is suggested that some of the criticisms levelled againt LOTR are in response to Tolkien's perceived ideology rather than the artistic merit of he work. I quote, "It should be noted that most such objections are levelled against the ideology behind the Lord of the Rings, not against the work's artistic merit." I am unsure as to the extent that these can be separated. Art is ideological, intentional or otherwise and it always expresses to the reader/viewer some worldview or se of values. I would suggest that this remark about such negative reviews of LOTR should just be omitted, allowing the idelogy-based criticism to stand by itself, without qualification.
I agree that they are fairly inseparable, but it is generally not a critic's job to rate something poorly just because they do not personally agree with the ideology behind it. --
Tarranon
23:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Literary criticism is the study, discussion, evaluation, and interpretation of literature, not simply about judging the quality of the work, it also involves classifying genres, making comparisons with other cultural works and looking at the relationship between art and life. It is possible to take a sociological perspective within literary criticism so we have, for example, Marxist and feminist criticism. This is also tied up with the nature of aesthetics and why we like what we like. It is perfectly acceptable for a literary critic to criticise a work for its ideology despite acknowledging the value of it's form, structure, language, characterisation and other literary categories. --Voloshinov 20:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following sentence "It should be noted that most such objections are levelled against the perceived ideology behind The Lord of the Rings and of its author, not against the work's artistic merit" For reasons discussed above the politics of a work of art cannot be considered as separate from its artistic merit. --Voloshinov 10:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
No mention of beowulf? Beowulf was a huge influence to the Lord of the Rings. I think it should be added to the article. Neokyotodragon 09:23, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In the movie [Clerks 2], Randal equates the Lord of The Rings movies as being 3 movies about walking. The first movie is demonstrated by Randal taking an exaggerated step while blank-faced. The second by tripping and looking back and down mid-walk. The third consisting of the same walk culminating in a gesture to remove the ring from the finger and toss it downward. I found this analogy to be quite apt , witty, reflective of my attitudes on Lord of The Rings (or at least the movie). I leave this here for others to decide on it's merit for inclusion in this article (mainly as I am unsure where in the article this would best be placed). AnarchyElmo 00:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
So guys, quick question. I'm ready to edit the backstory and synopsis, but I heard once WP:ME wants past tense. How come? Wiki-newbie 16:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
"All articles that cover in-universe material must be in past tense, as decided as a consensus here. Though it states in the Guide to writing better articles that generally fictional articles should be written in present tense, Tolkien related articles are an exception, due to the fact that we are discussing more than just plots of novels, we are outlining the history of [what we now intepret as] a fictional world — the novels are written in past tense because they are memoirs meant to explain a mythical past of our Earth, much like the Greek Mythology. Also, take consideration into the fact that many of the information is taken not from the novels, but from informational texts (e.g. The History of Middle-earth)."
"...When discussing the plot of a book, it is customary to use the present tense. However, when discussing history, albeit of a fictional world, it might make more sense to use the past tense. Here, it poses a problem, because the information comes from a book. In any case, the current mix makes for awkward reading." yEvb0 19:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
"Generally I think that the past tense makes sense in this case. Alot of Tolkien's work is written in the past tense and it is ostensibly meant to be a mythical past of our own world. Also, consistently using the present tense when describing events meant to take place millennia apart would seem misleading. Thus I don't think this really fits the 'usual' practice for book plots... at that a good deal of the information on Middle-earth comes from texts which don't have a plot per se." -- CBD ☎ ✉ 23:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
"It's written in past tense because it's from a first-person point of view of a character's memoirs or the like. Plus it's implied it's already happened as the viewer is hearing it. Not to mention the aeons they chronical (i.e. Silmarillion). Past tense certainly seems appropriate." Eluchil 12:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, I fixed it, so we can remain FA. Wiki-newbie 16:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Look guys, when describing the plot of a novel, keep it in present tense. If you want to write stuff on characters or histories etc, keep it to the project. Wiki-newbie 17:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
If there is not a reply within a day (I take it as unreplied answers to disputes when there is a majority means that the issue is settled), I am going to revert the back story and synopsis into past tense because if you consider this dispute, the majority is for past tense. (Not trying to be hasty, but it is best if this issue is settled quickly.) — Mir l e n 20:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
“ | Conversely, discussion of history is usually written in the past tense and thus 'fictional history' may be presented in that way as well. | ” |
I'll reach a compromise: keep the actual story synopsis in present tense, considering that's how Tolkien tells his story like any other author, but work on backstory with footnotes to the actual description eg. the war of the Last Alliance within 'Shadow of the Past' and 'Council of Elrond'. Wiki-newbie 08:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I know that they did not all need to be deleted, but, until we can establish what links need to be here, i deleted them. There were what, 20 of them? Scholarship links are not appropriate for the main article. - KaoBear (talk) 11:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As there was no 'Characters' item in the Contents, I moved Books below the line referencing the character page and added a sectional header so that the Character link can be more easily found. Pejorative.majeure 09:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The three volumes definitely aren't novels in their own right; but should we use "novel" for the whole book or just "book" and/or "story"? (Definitely not "trilogy".) As said above and in the article, it's called a novel very often though Tolkien objected to the term, preferring "heroic romance" (the distinction between heroic and "romantic romance" has already been explained in the article). TIME and Wikipedia itself uses novel, while the Middle-earth WikiProject instructs that we use "the words "story" (for the story as a whole), "book", "books" (both for LotR, its volumes and the 6 books — but make clear which you are referring to), "volume", "volumes" (for the three volumes of LotR)." ( Me:S#Terminology) Uthanc 03:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
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