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Where it says:
would it perhaps be more meaningful to talk instead about the number who were convicted, rather than all who were charged? (These constituted 15 who were convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Eight were acquitted of those charges, although one of those acquitted was convicted of being an SS member.) Such a change would require not only changing the number and changing "charged with" to "convicted of", but also checking that all the categories listed still apply to those who were convicted, including checking that plurals are used only where there are at least two identifiable people to whom they refer. -- Money money tickle parsnip ( talk) 07:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
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On the targets, they forgot to add Jehovahs witnesses some of the people who were tortured even after the Holocaust 76.183.192.245 ( talk) 22:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
I will put it at the end of the first sentence so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
put the source in it but it went below where it says World War II on the bottom so I put the link next to where I put the estimate if it needs fixing up and go ahead thank you still getting used to Wikipedia editing properly Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:57, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
got the source in the right place Jack90s15 ( talk) 05:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
just wanted to put this at end of the first sentence or some one else could so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million number for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period
Jack90s15 (
talk)
05:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
ok!! I added it to the world war 2 deaths and it was approved ok thanks for the input Jack90s15 ( talk) 05:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Someone had better beat it over to the articles on WW2 deaths - those articles mentioned that 300,000 Jews died in WW2.
2601:181:8301:4510:191:5960:F889:3423 (
talk)
04:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Please note: "murdered during the Holocaust time period" is not the same as "murdered in the Holocaust". The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which was cited above, provides estimates of "civilians and disarmed soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." They were the victims of Nazi war crimes, not victims of the Holocaust.
I will also use the USHMM as my source: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."
The Museum website also says: "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority: Roma (Gypsies), people with disabilities, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others)."
Note the wording. The Holocaust was primarily about the Jews. It also included other groups. But it is not correct to say there were 17 million victims of the Holocaust, including six million Jews. Not only is it not correct, the source cited does not make this claim. The Holocaust was about the Jews first. The academic sources are clear on this, and we should not amplify one academic's interpretation of the Holocaust in the opening of a Wiki article.
Mideastprofessor ( talk) 14:08, 28 January 2019 (UTC)Mideastprofessor
"Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event"in an unqualified manner in our voice takes a side in an academic debate. There are such voices. And they should be represented - quite possibly in the lede - but it should be qualified to camp that classifies this way. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:28, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
"Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[8] as well as ethnic Poles and other Slavs, Soviet citizens, Soviet prisoners of war, political opponents, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in up to 17 million deaths overall.[e]". This is not precise in my eyes - some scholars classify these together (as one related event) - some do not (e.g. seeing Soviet POWs as a separate issue - related only via WW2). Icewhiz ( talk) 19:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
It does say The Holocaust, also referred to as the Shoah,[b] was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews,[c] around two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe,[d] between 1941 and 1945.[7] Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[8] as well as ethnic Poles and other Slavs, Soviet citizens, Soviet prisoners of war, political opponents, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in up to 17 million deaths overall. so it does make it clear the Jews were the primary target,
the USHMM uses the 17 million figure for people that were murdered during the Holocaust 6 million Jews in the Holocaust 11 million others murdered during the Holocaust time period this wiki page does explain everything https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Jack90s15 ( talk) 07:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
or what if we have it say Jews were targeted for complete extermination, as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, since that was the end goal of the Nazis. then it will read.
The Holocaust, also referred to as the Shoah,[b] was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews,[c] around two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe,[d] between 1941 and 1945.[7] Jews were targeted for complete extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups
then that way it will show the Jews were the primary target of the Nazis during the Holocaust time period
Jack90s15 (
talk)
07:40, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
it all ready shows that just my input on what op was talking about the wiki page does go in to great detail about the 17 million people murdered during the holocaust Jack90s15 ( talk) 16:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
In January 1945, too. Xx236 ( talk) 08:28, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Non-Jewish Dutch citizens protested these measures and in February 1941, staged a strike that was quickly crushed - what happened later? Xx236 ( talk) 09:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
As the header says, I was pleasantly surprised when I looked at the format of the references etc. They are mostly very well done. Kudos. A small number of exceptions, identified with Lingzhi2's source reviewing script and Ucucha's HarvErrors script:
|orig-year=
;As we know, Jews constitute the largest number of victims of the Holocaust, that is 6 million people of Jewish background from all across the Europe, murdered by the Germans in German-occupied Poland.
However, it seems that nobody wants to believe, that ethnically Polish people were the second largest group among the Holocaust victims, right after the Jews. Approximately 3 million Polish people (only from Poland itself) were murdered during the Holocaust. The number is accepted by most historians worldwide. Of course it is slightly underestimated by some American and Jewish writers, but still it is over 2.5 million people (much about the half of the number of the Jewish victims from all across the occupied Europe). Some say, that Soviet prisoners of war were at least the same in number of deaths as ethnic Poles, but Soviet POWs were not entirely killed in the Holocaust, large part died in forced labor camps, plus Soviet POWs were of all ethnicities!!! There were Asian Soviet POWs, Russian Soviet POWs, Jewish Soviet POWs. The article depicts Soviet soldiers of various ethnic background as bigger victims than unarmed and etnically homogeneous Polish civilians, mothers and children who, just like Jews, Gypsies and Serbs, were brutally murdered, but in addition, their country, Poland, was totally devastated, like no other country in Europe (see: Planned destruction of Warsaw by Nazi Germany etc).
Now... the most important thing... How come some of you prevent me from adding Polish people among the victims of the Holocaust in the box on the right side of the article? [1]
What is wrong in adding Poles as victims?
And don't tell me that "Poles count as Slavs so you can't talk about them because it's repetition"... Did you ever know that there were Slavs like Croats, Bulgarians and Bosniaks (Muslim Slavs) who were actually accepted by the German Nazis? "Slavs" don't mean a thing in this context, it has to be stated that Polish people were one of the main victims of the Holocaust. Did you ever know that the first victims of the Auschwitz concentration camp until 1942 were ethnic Poles, while during that time, Jews were murdered in Birkenau (called by the Germans as "Auschwitz Zwei")? Did you ever know, that the Nazi German directive No. 1306 by Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda from October 24, 1939 says: "Poles, Jews and Gypsies are on the same inferior level"? Those are just a few facts to let you know how much the memory of Polish victims of the Holocaust is being omitted in this article.
Last thing, why do you emphasize homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses as the main victims? That's extremely unencyclopedic, as these groups were clearly small in comparison to the Jewish, Polish, and other Slavic numbers of victims, large numbers, each given in millions... and you prevent me from adding Poles among the main victims... Ridiculous. I'm awaiting for your answer and justification of your decisions. Yatzhek ( talk) 00:25, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) were victims of German Occupation policies and the war. This approximate total includes Poles killed in executions or who died in prisons, forced labor, and concentration camps. It also includes an estimated 225,000 civilian victims of the 1944 Warsaw uprising, more than 50,000 civilians who died during the 1939 invasion and siege of Warsaw, and a relatively small but unknown number of civilians killed during the Allies' military campaign of 1944—45 to liberate Poland. on the Holocaust victims wiki it does show Polish victims of the Nazis that were murdered during the Holocaust Jack90s15 ( talk) 01:58, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims https://www.ushmm.org/learn/students/learning-materials-and-resources/poles-victims-of-the-nazi-era/polish-resistance-and-conclusions
@ User:Beyond My Ken - the only person here who changes the facts is you. You intentionally omit the context to make people believe your fake statements about other editors. I never said that the term Untermensch was "meant almost exclusively about Poles". It's pretty obvious that, apart from the Poles, it was used against Jews, Gypsies, Blacks, Mulattos, mixed-race people, Russians and other Slavs, and all other non-White people with some expecptions. All I wrote was, that during the times of Partitions of Poland (18th century) the term was used by Germans exclusively against ethnic Poles. Now, I see that you cannot tell anything about the topic of this discussion, all you do is denying historical facts, stalking editors, and performing offtopic.
@ User:Ealdgyth - You are wrong. The Nazis did not see all Slavs equally, as I said before. Poles for instance were to be exterminated in nearly 90%, with the remaining 10% to be used as slaves. And even without that, Poles still constitute the largest number of victims among the Slavs. On the other hand, Muslim Slavs such as Bosniaks for instance, were respected by the German Nazis, and treated as friends, similarily to Bulgarians and of course Croats - Slavic nations as well. This is highly unfair towards the Poles to be labeled as random Slavs in this situation. If you want to omit Poles and put them in one jar with other Slavs, so why don't you put Gypsies (Roma) in one jar with "persons of color"? Why don't you put homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses in one jar with "political opponents"? Why are those marginal groups so highlighted?
@ User:Levivich - I agree with you my friend. This could be a consensus from my side. Yatzhek ( talk) 02:00, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth - You say that I "need sources to back up my informaton, and not just one, but many of them"... You mean as many as here? -
Nazi crimes against the Polish nation? Are the sources in this article valuable? Or maybe this article is unimportant, built without any sources, and according to you it should not be considered here at all?
You said that "the infobox is backed up by sourced information in the article", ok... Well, from the sources given in the article we get a clear image, that ethnic Poles constitute the largest number of Slavic victims of the Holocaust. Please note, that the Soviet POWs likewise make a large number of deaths (also around 3 million people) but they were not only Slavs, many of them were Soviet Jews and various Asian peoples from the territories of the Soviet Union. Moreover, Soviet POWs were only partially killed in concentration camps or executed in other forms during the Holocaust, but vast majority of them died from bad conditions of imprisonment and forced labor. Even the article itself says that they died "in German custody" not in German death camps. Those facts clearly make ethnic Poles the main Slavic victims of the Holocaust, and at the same time, the main non-Jewish victims.
So, coming back to the requirement of numerous sources about Poles, how come in case of homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses only one source per each of these groups actually defines their number, which was counted not in millions like in case of ethnic Poles, but in thousands, and still they are fully capable to be included in the infobox on the right side as some of the main victims?
Similarily, Romani victims are not counted in millions, like in case of the Poles, but in a few hundreds of thousands of victims, according to the sources in the article, and you see no contradictions to place them as the main victims of the Holocaust right after Jews. At the same time you try to persistently discourage me from placing ethnic Poles in the infobox.
That's interesting and I hope that the people who will read my words will see the paradox. Yatzhek ( talk) 15:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
I suggest that we remove the "target" field if it's causing a dispute. The infobox offers the number of deaths, with footnotes, so "target" is arguably repetitive.
To be verifiable, this article must follow the views of mainstream, academic Holocaust historians; and their publications should ideally be in English because this is the English-language Wikipedia. So far as I can tell, that group of sources agrees that the Holocaust was the Nazi German genocide of the European Jews. That genocide was accompanied by other Nazi German acts of genocide and persecution, and we include those in this article for context. Any editor wanting to argue that the Holocaust is defined in other ways must provide references to mainstream Holocaust historians who use the definition being proposed—and that means Holocaust historians who actually use other definitions, not who speculate that "if we were to include those other groups, it would mean there were x number of deaths." SarahSV (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SarahSV: Jack90s15 ( talk) 23:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Jews | Roma | Incurably sick | Poles | Slavs | Soviet citizens | Soviet POWs | political opponents | gay men | Jehova's Witnesses | Persons of color | |
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"Victims" subsection headings | ![]() |
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Infobox "deaths" field | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? |
The article is inconsistent in the way it handles these groups. For example, Poles are important enough to be mentioned in the article lead, the Victims section lead, and to have their own subsection, but aren't mentioned in the infobox. "Incurably ill" are mentioned in the lead and the infobox, but don't have their own section under "Victims" (Aktion T4 is discussed elsewhere). Soviet POWs are mentioned everywhere, including in both the infobox "target" field and in the infobox footnote [a]. POC have a section but aren't mentioned anywhere else. Things should be brought into alignment. Some options:
I don't think the status quo, with that much inconsistency (Soviet POWs getting mentioned twice in the infobox, but Poles, Soviet citizens, and gay men aren't), it sends the message that Soviet POW were more "important" or notable than other categories of German victims, which I'm sure isn't the message we want to send, since the RSes don't say that.
Leviv
ich
23:34, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Approx. 6 million European Jews; using broadest definition, 11 million others, with a footnote that lists all of the groups in the above table? Leviv ich 00:16, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
My edit [2] regarding the German subsidies for Israel's purchases of Dolphin-class submarines was reverted because of the perceived lack of relevance to any reparations for the Holocaust. The Jerusalem Post, citing Der Spiegel, explicitly states that "the subsidy was being offered to Israel as part of reparations for the Holocaust." [3] Of course, that's not the only reason, which is why I added more information & more sources. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 21:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
With this edit ThreatMatrix stranded a citation to Baker 2015, p. 18. Info may (?) have been copied over from Persecution of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia. Not sure how the history works here, several people editing. But you may wanna be careful about the possibility of too much use of WP as a source. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 15:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: What do you mean by "too crowded"? M . M 19:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
If you look at any of the older revisions, you'll see that the source you're referring to was broken long before I started editing here. And I don't know how to fix it, so please just deal with it yourselves. Again, feel free remove those two Eichmann sources if you want to. I mostly just care about correcting his month of execution, adding an appropriate picture, and doing small clean-up like adding wikilinks. M . M 21:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
. All four sentences are sourced to the one ref. Say an editor comes along and breaks this paragraph into two paragraphs as soThis is sentence A. This is sentence B. This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
Now, sentences A & B have become divorced from their sourcing. They are now broken, but they were NOT before. What the editor who broke up the paragraph should do isThis is sentence A. This is sentence B.
This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
which attaches the source to the sentences that have been moved around. This is very important to keep text source integrity in our articles.This is sentence A. This is sentence B.<ref name=A/>
This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref name=A>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
And you still haven't answered the question if you read the Hull and Arendt sources before attaching them here from another article. This is also important because you should never add sources without actually consulting them and making sure they support the information that they are appended to. Again, elementary editing that needs to be understood before editing such a high profile article. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the prose should say Eichmann was "captured" or "arrested" or "apprehended", and not "kidnapped" or "abducted". My impression is that "captured" and "arrested" are the words most often used to describe the physical apprehension. I also think those words make sense because Eichmann was a fugitive from justice, a war criminal, who was apprehended in order to be brought to trial by a sovereign state's legal system, etc. etc. In other words, it was a legal physical apprehension for a legal purpose under international law, whereas, "kidnapping" and "abduction" implies illegality. Leviv ich 02:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The Council declared that such acts, if repeated, could endanger international peace and security and requested that Israel make the appropriate reparation in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and the rules of international law.So the UN reckoned it was a breach of international law. I'm not sure we can use Wikipedia as a source in this way, and I remain uneasy about using a term like this in Wikipedia's voice. It seems too easily to endorse Israel's breach of international law. -- MarchOrDie ( talk) 21:18, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
...Mossad agents kidnapped Adolf Eichmann..., B:
...Mossad agents captured Adolf Eichmann..., or framed some other way? Leviv ich 16:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I recently made an attempt to expand the literature regarding the Serb victims of the Holocaust. This was done at both the introduction and victims/death toll section. My addition was reverted by Ealdgyth due to unspecified reasons. The Serbian Genocide of WW2 forms part of the Holocaust, in line with what is stated in the Genocide article. An explanation would be appreciated to confirm why such an addition is contested or, input as to how to reword my contribution ThreatMatrix ( talk) 10:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Hi. Some of the contributors here might want to take a look at the more recent changes at a related page, Extermination camp. It would seem issues which have been discussed here are also issues there… Regards, Robby.is.on ( talk)
Why would Hitler decide to annihilate Jews on 12 December 1941 if his forces had been killing Jews since 1939 in Poland and elsewhere? The killings in the Soviet Union had begun in the summer of 1941. ( 86.176.67.118 ( talk) 10:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC))
In the section on Holocaust in occupied territories, it says "Croatia's ruling party, the Ustashe, killed the country's Jews, and killed or expelled Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims.[167]" The inclusion of Muslims here is false. If you read the linked article, Persecution of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia, it says:
"The Ustaše used Starčević's theories to promote the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina to Croatia and they recognized Croatia as having two major ethnocultural components: Catholic Croats and Muslim Croats,[31] because the Ustaše saw the Islam of the Bosnian-Muslims as a religion which "keeps true the blood of Croats."[31] Source: Butić-Jelić, Fikreta. Ustaše i Nezavisna Država Hrvatska 1941–1945. Liber, 1977.
"The Ustashe viewed religion and nationality as closely linked; while Roman Catholicism and Islam (Bosnian Muslims were viewed as Croats) were recognized as Croatian national religions, Eastern Orthodoxy was deemed inherently incompatible with the Croatian state project.[14]" Source: Ramet, Sabrina P. (2006). The Three Yugoslavias: State-Building and Legitimation, 1918–2005. New York: Indiana University Press. ISBN 978-0-253-34656-8. p 118
Wikipedia should not falsify history. Bosniaks were not victims of the Ustase, but collaborators. See the Featured Article 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). This is indisputable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.226.205 ( talk) 15:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Romania murdered Jews. Did Romania collaborate? The page Collaboration with the Axis Powers doesn't list Romania. Some integration of this Wikipedia is needed. Xx236 ( talk) 11:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Romania was one of the Axis powers, and adhered to the Tripartite Pact. You can't collaborate with yourself. Dimadick ( talk) 11:58, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi Xx236, I'm responding to your note on my talk, namely "The lead definition ignores allies of Germany." I'm not sure what you mean by this. It does say "Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators". Can you elaborate? SarahSV (talk) 20:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
The part I refer to is: "The Third Reich first used concentration camps as places of unlawful incarceration of political opponents and other "enemies of the state". Large numbers of Jews were not sent there until after Kristallnacht in November 1938.[182]"
Since the goverment suspended most of "due process" around the same time, wouldnt the incarceration be considered lawful (though certainly not moral)? Can anyone refute or confirm this? Multilocus ( talk) 04:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
From the the final sentence of introduction:
“By mid-1942, victims were being deported from the ghettos in sealed freight trains to extermination camps where, if they survived the journey, they were killed in gas chambers. The killing continued until the end of World War II in Europe in May 1945.”
To be more factual, shouldn’t the sentence read: “...if they survived the journey, those the Nazi camp authorities deemed physically fit to work were made slave laborers under brutal conditions with little chance of ultimate survival, and those who were not deemed fit to work were summarily killed in gas chambers.”
I don’t think this point is at all disputed or contentious The camp selection processes are well known. My point is that as written the passage is simply historically inaccurate. However, because of the extremely sensitive nature of this subject, I don’t want to make any substantive change without first clearing it with the consensus of other editors. Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 17:32, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Auschwitz was a camp complex it was Both (Auschwitz was the largest of the German Nazi concentration camps and extermination centers.) http://auschwitz.org/en/ @ HistoryBuff14: Jack90s15 ( talk) 18:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
217.210.93.240 ( talk) 21:31, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
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The International Red Cross has since proven with physical evidence that the number of deaths actually caused by Nazi Germany was around the 315,000 mark as a huge amount of the original tally of deaths included those who died of the typhus epidemic that plagued Germany during WW2, the epidemic was made worse by bombing runs on medical supply routes and towns like Dresden.
Evidence of this can be found looking at the 1938 and 1948 Red Cross sensus based on religious views, Jewish numbers increased dramatically over this period which furthermore contradicts the 6 million death totals and goes more in line with the 315,000 deaths. 49.182.47.111 ( talk) 08:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Have the Red Cross numbers been released? Where, when? Is there any source giving evidence other than "eyewitness" statements - ie forensic, etc?
2601:181:8301:4510:5008:B8C2:A3EB:786D (
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15:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
"Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, about 90 percent were killed.[369] Many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.[403]"
Since 90 percent is the first reference to the number of Jews killed in Poland, it makes no sense to continue with "many more", since it doesn't contrast against anything. That many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported than the total number of polish Jews killed is impossible, so I guess it's leftover from an earlier edit referring to Jews killed somewhere else than the ghettos. Just dropping "more" from the sentence would make it correct, although if it referred to some other figure earlier, why isn't that still there? Shouldn't changes made to protected articles be mentioned in the talk page? 217.210.93.240 ( talk) 21:18, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
but was changed to read:Around one million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories, [1] an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen reports did not always survive the war. [2] Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.
In my opinion, this edit, at least in this part of the change, was not an improvement, and confused the situation. And now the article contains the two sentences you quoted, which is worse.Around one million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories. [1] [2] Many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported. [3] For the death camps, 80–90 percent of the victims are estimated to have been Jews. They accounted for half the total number of Jews killed.
References
The Judenrate were formed at the beginning of the war and used to create the ghettos. Xx236 ( talk) 06:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Many of the Nuremberg trial pages link to mazal.org for Nuremberg tribunal reports, or link it as a general external reference. I'm not sure what used to be there, but now it's a blank page which shows a CAPTCHA button on the 1st visit claiming it will verify further (but appears to be timing-based to prevent the redirect from being followed) then redirects to getsplendidapps.com and asks for an unsigned extension / addon to be installed (in Firefox 66.0.5). I'm changing these to point to the NMT .pdf copies on the library of congress website when I find them, but I'm posting here so others editing sub-pages can be on the lookout. A Shortfall Of Gravitas ( talk) 05:10, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
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Add "Genocide" at the beginning of the article:
{{Genocide}} 209.232.148.106 ( talk) 15:29, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The Third Reich murdered millions of Slavs, including Poles, but according to some academicians the vicitms produced the Third Reich. Pure revisionism. Xx236 ( talk) 07:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Polish government in exile did. Some Polish Catholics in terrorized Poland did, see Protest!. If you quote a biased text, you are oblidged to quote other opinions as well. Xx236 ( talk) 07:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
A masterpiece of German propaganda. The outside world was responsible, we Germans did nothing, we only performed our orders. Performing orders is part of German culture.
Xx236 ( talk) 07:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
The word collaborators has two meanings - allies of Germany and collaborators in occupied lands. The link in the lead misinforms, you completely ignore in the lead the allies of Nazi Germany, described in Germany's allies subsection. Xx236 ( talk) 05:35, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
It's trash, not a definition. You link Collaboration with the Axis Powers which doesn't include Nazi Allies. The collaborators weren't always local. You don't define collaboration. Hans Lemberg wrote ironically Was Kollaboration ist, weiß jedermann allready in 1972. Xx236 ( talk) 11:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Jack90s15, if you copy text from another WP article, please state in the edit summary that "this edit" copies text from wherever. Your edit summary of 10 June UTC, "content in this article was copied from Einsatzgruppen on June 9th 2019," makes it seem that my edits to Einsatzgruppen on 9 June were copied.
Having said that, it isn't a good idea to copy text from elsewhere on WP, because it could mean that this article inherits the other article's problems, such as relying on old sources. Also, text written to flow well in one article might not work elsewhere. Finally, I don't know whether you checked the sources before copying it over; the sources would have to be checked. SarahSV (talk) 04:51, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Przemysław Wielgosz is a radical left activist. He is neither academic nor neutral. He doesn't belong here as a reliable sources. If Wielgosz is quoted, a radical right opinion is needed to preserve neutrality. Xx236 ( talk) 11:50, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Austrians participated in designing and implementing the Holocaust, their share is ignored here. Austria is mentioned because of Mauthausen like Poland because of Auschwitz. There was however no symmetry, Austrians murdered both in Mauthausen and in Auschwitz. Xx236 ( talk) 10:15, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
We already have an article on Austria under National Socialism. Dimadick ( talk) 15:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
A number of June threads were archivized closing unfinished discusisons.
If an academic paper describes euthanasia in Austria, why not The Holocaust in Austria? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18165987~~
The page should be linked. It's a basic question. Xx236 ( talk) 10:09, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Is the difference between Serbia and Croatia obvious? Serbia was occupied by Germany (which was governed by a combination of military and police administrators, German ones, which isn't written) and Croatia was nominally independent, which is written. Xx236 ( talk) 10:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin
[5] replaced official investigation data with obsolete Gross' thesis of 1,600 victims. What is the reason to replace seroious data with Communist propaganda and to qualify such edit as expansions? What is the reason to accuse pre-war Poland, which was a vicitm of Nazi Germany?
Xx236 (
talk)
11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
If you don't know the Holocaust was designed and implemented by Germany (and annected Austria), not by Poland. Using German sources against Poland is controversial. Some German politicians and academicians transfer responsibility from Germany and Austria to Poland or local collaborators. Editors of this page participate in the transfer, refusing to discuss their errors and manipulations.
Yantarny,_Kaliningrad_Oblast#Massacre_of_Palmnicken Xx236 ( talk) 11:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
In arguing with someone about the total number of people who died in the Holocaust I came across a bit of an interesting problem. Some sources seem to say the Holocaust is a term specific to Jewish victims and others use it to include all (civilian) groups systematically targeted by the Nazis.
Does it make sense to note civilian victims of systematic murder in the Holocaust description sidebar, perhaps called out separately? Inclusion of POWs seems iffy to me, but all others amount for another 8-10 million people.
Per /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims and it's sources
Victims | Murdered |
---|---|
Jews | 5–6 million |
Soviet citizens | 5.7 million(excl. 1.3 million Jews) |
Soviet POWs | 2.8–3.3 million |
Poles | 1.8–3 million |
Serbs | 300,000–600,000 |
Disabled | 270,000 |
Romani | 130,000–500,000 |
Freemasons | 80,000–200,000 |
Slovenes | 20,000–25,000 |
Spanish Republicans | 7,000 |
Homosexuals | 5,000–15,000 |
Jehovah's Witnesses |
1,250–5,000 |
Catskul ( talk) 20:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The lead contains undefined notion of local collaborators. I have asked several times why the local ones are accused and the non-local ones ignored. Was Romania a local collaborator? The text doesn't inform about Axis powers and Tripartite Pact. Xx236 ( talk) 06:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
NYCJosh, the Liberation section has a strong ending with the quote from Dimbleby. The text you want to add would be more appropriate in the Aftermath section:
With more sources and written differently, it could perhaps have its own sub-section in the Aftermath section. Note that it's discussed in Aftermath of the Holocaust, without sources. Perhaps it would be better to add the sources there. SarahSV (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Austria and Poland were invided and later there were concentration camps in both, one in Austria and plenty in Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 06:26, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
They were invaded, not invited. See main article invasion. Dimadick ( talk) 11:08, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The subsection informs about a few punished leaders. The majority of middle class criminals wasn't punished. West-German policy of pretending de-Nazification deserves to be mentioned here. Xx236 ( talk) 06:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
German courts demanded - or at least appreciated - evidence. Except in a few cases of political importance they were unable to drum up any believable "evidence".
Seeing as how all the "extermination" of Jews, Gypsies, etc happened in Russian post war controlled territory it is imperative to search Russian archives for "evidence". Good project for a true historian - some ( most? ) evidence that we now have come from a relatively small handfull of "survivors".
By the way have the Aroson files been released in their totality?
2601:181:8301:4510:F556:9CE7:C5F9:FBB (
talk)
15:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin, pls refrain from hedging the article text regarding the Lviv pogrom, by removing the clear reference to Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters, changing it to Ukrainian nationalists and local people than hedging the statement by adding 50 percent non-Jewish Poles, 32 percent Jews, and 16 percent Ukrainians. There is ample evidence that the participants of this pogrom were Ukrainains and not anyone else. Including the fact that the culmination of the massacres "Petlura days" refers to Symon Petliura who was the Supreme Commander of the Ukrainian Army in 1918-1921, and statement by the German officers themselves including this one "During the first hours after the departure of the Bolsheviks, the Ukrainian population took praiseworthy action against the Jews." -- E-960 ( talk) 19:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
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Archive 30 | ← | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | → | Archive 40 |
Where it says:
would it perhaps be more meaningful to talk instead about the number who were convicted, rather than all who were charged? (These constituted 15 who were convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Eight were acquitted of those charges, although one of those acquitted was convicted of being an SS member.) Such a change would require not only changing the number and changing "charged with" to "convicted of", but also checking that all the categories listed still apply to those who were convicted, including checking that plurals are used only where there are at least two identifiable people to whom they refer. -- Money money tickle parsnip ( talk) 07:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
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On the targets, they forgot to add Jehovahs witnesses some of the people who were tortured even after the Holocaust 76.183.192.245 ( talk) 22:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
I will put it at the end of the first sentence so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
put the source in it but it went below where it says World War II on the bottom so I put the link next to where I put the estimate if it needs fixing up and go ahead thank you still getting used to Wikipedia editing properly Jack90s15 ( talk) 04:57, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
got the source in the right place Jack90s15 ( talk) 05:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
just wanted to put this at end of the first sentence or some one else could so people know that a place of Academia uses the 17 million number for the Six Million Jews and 11 million others that were murdered during the Holocaust time period
Jack90s15 (
talk)
05:18, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
ok!! I added it to the world war 2 deaths and it was approved ok thanks for the input Jack90s15 ( talk) 05:23, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
Someone had better beat it over to the articles on WW2 deaths - those articles mentioned that 300,000 Jews died in WW2.
2601:181:8301:4510:191:5960:F889:3423 (
talk)
04:11, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Please note: "murdered during the Holocaust time period" is not the same as "murdered in the Holocaust". The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which was cited above, provides estimates of "civilians and disarmed soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." They were the victims of Nazi war crimes, not victims of the Holocaust.
I will also use the USHMM as my source: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators."
The Museum website also says: "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority: Roma (Gypsies), people with disabilities, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others)."
Note the wording. The Holocaust was primarily about the Jews. It also included other groups. But it is not correct to say there were 17 million victims of the Holocaust, including six million Jews. Not only is it not correct, the source cited does not make this claim. The Holocaust was about the Jews first. The academic sources are clear on this, and we should not amplify one academic's interpretation of the Holocaust in the opening of a Wiki article.
Mideastprofessor ( talk) 14:08, 28 January 2019 (UTC)Mideastprofessor
"Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event"in an unqualified manner in our voice takes a side in an academic debate. There are such voices. And they should be represented - quite possibly in the lede - but it should be qualified to camp that classifies this way. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:28, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
"Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[8] as well as ethnic Poles and other Slavs, Soviet citizens, Soviet prisoners of war, political opponents, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in up to 17 million deaths overall.[e]". This is not precise in my eyes - some scholars classify these together (as one related event) - some do not (e.g. seeing Soviet POWs as a separate issue - related only via WW2). Icewhiz ( talk) 19:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
It does say The Holocaust, also referred to as the Shoah,[b] was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews,[c] around two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe,[d] between 1941 and 1945.[7] Jews were targeted for extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, including in particular the Roma and "incurably sick",[8] as well as ethnic Poles and other Slavs, Soviet citizens, Soviet prisoners of war, political opponents, gay men and Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in up to 17 million deaths overall. so it does make it clear the Jews were the primary target,
the USHMM uses the 17 million figure for people that were murdered during the Holocaust 6 million Jews in the Holocaust 11 million others murdered during the Holocaust time period this wiki page does explain everything https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Jack90s15 ( talk) 07:27, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
or what if we have it say Jews were targeted for complete extermination, as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups, since that was the end goal of the Nazis. then it will read.
The Holocaust, also referred to as the Shoah,[b] was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews,[c] around two-thirds of the Jewish population of Europe,[d] between 1941 and 1945.[7] Jews were targeted for complete extermination as part of a larger event involving the persecution and murder of other groups
then that way it will show the Jews were the primary target of the Nazis during the Holocaust time period
Jack90s15 (
talk)
07:40, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
it all ready shows that just my input on what op was talking about the wiki page does go in to great detail about the 17 million people murdered during the holocaust Jack90s15 ( talk) 16:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
In January 1945, too. Xx236 ( talk) 08:28, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Non-Jewish Dutch citizens protested these measures and in February 1941, staged a strike that was quickly crushed - what happened later? Xx236 ( talk) 09:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
As the header says, I was pleasantly surprised when I looked at the format of the references etc. They are mostly very well done. Kudos. A small number of exceptions, identified with Lingzhi2's source reviewing script and Ucucha's HarvErrors script:
|orig-year=
;As we know, Jews constitute the largest number of victims of the Holocaust, that is 6 million people of Jewish background from all across the Europe, murdered by the Germans in German-occupied Poland.
However, it seems that nobody wants to believe, that ethnically Polish people were the second largest group among the Holocaust victims, right after the Jews. Approximately 3 million Polish people (only from Poland itself) were murdered during the Holocaust. The number is accepted by most historians worldwide. Of course it is slightly underestimated by some American and Jewish writers, but still it is over 2.5 million people (much about the half of the number of the Jewish victims from all across the occupied Europe). Some say, that Soviet prisoners of war were at least the same in number of deaths as ethnic Poles, but Soviet POWs were not entirely killed in the Holocaust, large part died in forced labor camps, plus Soviet POWs were of all ethnicities!!! There were Asian Soviet POWs, Russian Soviet POWs, Jewish Soviet POWs. The article depicts Soviet soldiers of various ethnic background as bigger victims than unarmed and etnically homogeneous Polish civilians, mothers and children who, just like Jews, Gypsies and Serbs, were brutally murdered, but in addition, their country, Poland, was totally devastated, like no other country in Europe (see: Planned destruction of Warsaw by Nazi Germany etc).
Now... the most important thing... How come some of you prevent me from adding Polish people among the victims of the Holocaust in the box on the right side of the article? [1]
What is wrong in adding Poles as victims?
And don't tell me that "Poles count as Slavs so you can't talk about them because it's repetition"... Did you ever know that there were Slavs like Croats, Bulgarians and Bosniaks (Muslim Slavs) who were actually accepted by the German Nazis? "Slavs" don't mean a thing in this context, it has to be stated that Polish people were one of the main victims of the Holocaust. Did you ever know that the first victims of the Auschwitz concentration camp until 1942 were ethnic Poles, while during that time, Jews were murdered in Birkenau (called by the Germans as "Auschwitz Zwei")? Did you ever know, that the Nazi German directive No. 1306 by Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda from October 24, 1939 says: "Poles, Jews and Gypsies are on the same inferior level"? Those are just a few facts to let you know how much the memory of Polish victims of the Holocaust is being omitted in this article.
Last thing, why do you emphasize homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses as the main victims? That's extremely unencyclopedic, as these groups were clearly small in comparison to the Jewish, Polish, and other Slavic numbers of victims, large numbers, each given in millions... and you prevent me from adding Poles among the main victims... Ridiculous. I'm awaiting for your answer and justification of your decisions. Yatzhek ( talk) 00:25, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) were victims of German Occupation policies and the war. This approximate total includes Poles killed in executions or who died in prisons, forced labor, and concentration camps. It also includes an estimated 225,000 civilian victims of the 1944 Warsaw uprising, more than 50,000 civilians who died during the 1939 invasion and siege of Warsaw, and a relatively small but unknown number of civilians killed during the Allies' military campaign of 1944—45 to liberate Poland. on the Holocaust victims wiki it does show Polish victims of the Nazis that were murdered during the Holocaust Jack90s15 ( talk) 01:58, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims https://www.ushmm.org/learn/students/learning-materials-and-resources/poles-victims-of-the-nazi-era/polish-resistance-and-conclusions
@ User:Beyond My Ken - the only person here who changes the facts is you. You intentionally omit the context to make people believe your fake statements about other editors. I never said that the term Untermensch was "meant almost exclusively about Poles". It's pretty obvious that, apart from the Poles, it was used against Jews, Gypsies, Blacks, Mulattos, mixed-race people, Russians and other Slavs, and all other non-White people with some expecptions. All I wrote was, that during the times of Partitions of Poland (18th century) the term was used by Germans exclusively against ethnic Poles. Now, I see that you cannot tell anything about the topic of this discussion, all you do is denying historical facts, stalking editors, and performing offtopic.
@ User:Ealdgyth - You are wrong. The Nazis did not see all Slavs equally, as I said before. Poles for instance were to be exterminated in nearly 90%, with the remaining 10% to be used as slaves. And even without that, Poles still constitute the largest number of victims among the Slavs. On the other hand, Muslim Slavs such as Bosniaks for instance, were respected by the German Nazis, and treated as friends, similarily to Bulgarians and of course Croats - Slavic nations as well. This is highly unfair towards the Poles to be labeled as random Slavs in this situation. If you want to omit Poles and put them in one jar with other Slavs, so why don't you put Gypsies (Roma) in one jar with "persons of color"? Why don't you put homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses in one jar with "political opponents"? Why are those marginal groups so highlighted?
@ User:Levivich - I agree with you my friend. This could be a consensus from my side. Yatzhek ( talk) 02:00, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@ Ealdgyth - You say that I "need sources to back up my informaton, and not just one, but many of them"... You mean as many as here? -
Nazi crimes against the Polish nation? Are the sources in this article valuable? Or maybe this article is unimportant, built without any sources, and according to you it should not be considered here at all?
You said that "the infobox is backed up by sourced information in the article", ok... Well, from the sources given in the article we get a clear image, that ethnic Poles constitute the largest number of Slavic victims of the Holocaust. Please note, that the Soviet POWs likewise make a large number of deaths (also around 3 million people) but they were not only Slavs, many of them were Soviet Jews and various Asian peoples from the territories of the Soviet Union. Moreover, Soviet POWs were only partially killed in concentration camps or executed in other forms during the Holocaust, but vast majority of them died from bad conditions of imprisonment and forced labor. Even the article itself says that they died "in German custody" not in German death camps. Those facts clearly make ethnic Poles the main Slavic victims of the Holocaust, and at the same time, the main non-Jewish victims.
So, coming back to the requirement of numerous sources about Poles, how come in case of homosexuals and Jehovah's witnesses only one source per each of these groups actually defines their number, which was counted not in millions like in case of ethnic Poles, but in thousands, and still they are fully capable to be included in the infobox on the right side as some of the main victims?
Similarily, Romani victims are not counted in millions, like in case of the Poles, but in a few hundreds of thousands of victims, according to the sources in the article, and you see no contradictions to place them as the main victims of the Holocaust right after Jews. At the same time you try to persistently discourage me from placing ethnic Poles in the infobox.
That's interesting and I hope that the people who will read my words will see the paradox. Yatzhek ( talk) 15:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
I suggest that we remove the "target" field if it's causing a dispute. The infobox offers the number of deaths, with footnotes, so "target" is arguably repetitive.
To be verifiable, this article must follow the views of mainstream, academic Holocaust historians; and their publications should ideally be in English because this is the English-language Wikipedia. So far as I can tell, that group of sources agrees that the Holocaust was the Nazi German genocide of the European Jews. That genocide was accompanied by other Nazi German acts of genocide and persecution, and we include those in this article for context. Any editor wanting to argue that the Holocaust is defined in other ways must provide references to mainstream Holocaust historians who use the definition being proposed—and that means Holocaust historians who actually use other definitions, not who speculate that "if we were to include those other groups, it would mean there were x number of deaths." SarahSV (talk) 20:30, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SarahSV: Jack90s15 ( talk) 23:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Jews | Roma | Incurably sick | Poles | Slavs | Soviet citizens | Soviet POWs | political opponents | gay men | Jehova's Witnesses | Persons of color | |
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"Victims" section lead | ![]() |
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"Victims" subsection headings | ![]() |
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Infobox "deaths" field | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? | ?? |
The article is inconsistent in the way it handles these groups. For example, Poles are important enough to be mentioned in the article lead, the Victims section lead, and to have their own subsection, but aren't mentioned in the infobox. "Incurably ill" are mentioned in the lead and the infobox, but don't have their own section under "Victims" (Aktion T4 is discussed elsewhere). Soviet POWs are mentioned everywhere, including in both the infobox "target" field and in the infobox footnote [a]. POC have a section but aren't mentioned anywhere else. Things should be brought into alignment. Some options:
I don't think the status quo, with that much inconsistency (Soviet POWs getting mentioned twice in the infobox, but Poles, Soviet citizens, and gay men aren't), it sends the message that Soviet POW were more "important" or notable than other categories of German victims, which I'm sure isn't the message we want to send, since the RSes don't say that.
Leviv
ich
23:34, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Approx. 6 million European Jews; using broadest definition, 11 million others, with a footnote that lists all of the groups in the above table? Leviv ich 00:16, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
My edit [2] regarding the German subsidies for Israel's purchases of Dolphin-class submarines was reverted because of the perceived lack of relevance to any reparations for the Holocaust. The Jerusalem Post, citing Der Spiegel, explicitly states that "the subsidy was being offered to Israel as part of reparations for the Holocaust." [3] Of course, that's not the only reason, which is why I added more information & more sources. VwM.Mwv ( talk) 21:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
With this edit ThreatMatrix stranded a citation to Baker 2015, p. 18. Info may (?) have been copied over from Persecution of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia. Not sure how the history works here, several people editing. But you may wanna be careful about the possibility of too much use of WP as a source. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 15:58, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: What do you mean by "too crowded"? M . M 19:35, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
If you look at any of the older revisions, you'll see that the source you're referring to was broken long before I started editing here. And I don't know how to fix it, so please just deal with it yourselves. Again, feel free remove those two Eichmann sources if you want to. I mostly just care about correcting his month of execution, adding an appropriate picture, and doing small clean-up like adding wikilinks. M . M 21:30, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
. All four sentences are sourced to the one ref. Say an editor comes along and breaks this paragraph into two paragraphs as soThis is sentence A. This is sentence B. This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
Now, sentences A & B have become divorced from their sourcing. They are now broken, but they were NOT before. What the editor who broke up the paragraph should do isThis is sentence A. This is sentence B.
This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
which attaches the source to the sentences that have been moved around. This is very important to keep text source integrity in our articles.This is sentence A. This is sentence B.<ref name=A/>
This is sentence C. This is sentence D.<ref name=A>Ref for sentences A through D.</ref>
And you still haven't answered the question if you read the Hull and Arendt sources before attaching them here from another article. This is also important because you should never add sources without actually consulting them and making sure they support the information that they are appended to. Again, elementary editing that needs to be understood before editing such a high profile article. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:39, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I think the prose should say Eichmann was "captured" or "arrested" or "apprehended", and not "kidnapped" or "abducted". My impression is that "captured" and "arrested" are the words most often used to describe the physical apprehension. I also think those words make sense because Eichmann was a fugitive from justice, a war criminal, who was apprehended in order to be brought to trial by a sovereign state's legal system, etc. etc. In other words, it was a legal physical apprehension for a legal purpose under international law, whereas, "kidnapping" and "abduction" implies illegality. Leviv ich 02:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The Council declared that such acts, if repeated, could endanger international peace and security and requested that Israel make the appropriate reparation in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations and the rules of international law.So the UN reckoned it was a breach of international law. I'm not sure we can use Wikipedia as a source in this way, and I remain uneasy about using a term like this in Wikipedia's voice. It seems too easily to endorse Israel's breach of international law. -- MarchOrDie ( talk) 21:18, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
...Mossad agents kidnapped Adolf Eichmann..., B:
...Mossad agents captured Adolf Eichmann..., or framed some other way? Leviv ich 16:32, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I recently made an attempt to expand the literature regarding the Serb victims of the Holocaust. This was done at both the introduction and victims/death toll section. My addition was reverted by Ealdgyth due to unspecified reasons. The Serbian Genocide of WW2 forms part of the Holocaust, in line with what is stated in the Genocide article. An explanation would be appreciated to confirm why such an addition is contested or, input as to how to reword my contribution ThreatMatrix ( talk) 10:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Hi. Some of the contributors here might want to take a look at the more recent changes at a related page, Extermination camp. It would seem issues which have been discussed here are also issues there… Regards, Robby.is.on ( talk)
Why would Hitler decide to annihilate Jews on 12 December 1941 if his forces had been killing Jews since 1939 in Poland and elsewhere? The killings in the Soviet Union had begun in the summer of 1941. ( 86.176.67.118 ( talk) 10:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC))
In the section on Holocaust in occupied territories, it says "Croatia's ruling party, the Ustashe, killed the country's Jews, and killed or expelled Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims.[167]" The inclusion of Muslims here is false. If you read the linked article, Persecution of Serbs in the Independent State of Croatia, it says:
"The Ustaše used Starčević's theories to promote the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina to Croatia and they recognized Croatia as having two major ethnocultural components: Catholic Croats and Muslim Croats,[31] because the Ustaše saw the Islam of the Bosnian-Muslims as a religion which "keeps true the blood of Croats."[31] Source: Butić-Jelić, Fikreta. Ustaše i Nezavisna Država Hrvatska 1941–1945. Liber, 1977.
"The Ustashe viewed religion and nationality as closely linked; while Roman Catholicism and Islam (Bosnian Muslims were viewed as Croats) were recognized as Croatian national religions, Eastern Orthodoxy was deemed inherently incompatible with the Croatian state project.[14]" Source: Ramet, Sabrina P. (2006). The Three Yugoslavias: State-Building and Legitimation, 1918–2005. New York: Indiana University Press. ISBN 978-0-253-34656-8. p 118
Wikipedia should not falsify history. Bosniaks were not victims of the Ustase, but collaborators. See the Featured Article 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian). This is indisputable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.226.205 ( talk) 15:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Romania murdered Jews. Did Romania collaborate? The page Collaboration with the Axis Powers doesn't list Romania. Some integration of this Wikipedia is needed. Xx236 ( talk) 11:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Romania was one of the Axis powers, and adhered to the Tripartite Pact. You can't collaborate with yourself. Dimadick ( talk) 11:58, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi Xx236, I'm responding to your note on my talk, namely "The lead definition ignores allies of Germany." I'm not sure what you mean by this. It does say "Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators". Can you elaborate? SarahSV (talk) 20:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
The part I refer to is: "The Third Reich first used concentration camps as places of unlawful incarceration of political opponents and other "enemies of the state". Large numbers of Jews were not sent there until after Kristallnacht in November 1938.[182]"
Since the goverment suspended most of "due process" around the same time, wouldnt the incarceration be considered lawful (though certainly not moral)? Can anyone refute or confirm this? Multilocus ( talk) 04:00, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
From the the final sentence of introduction:
“By mid-1942, victims were being deported from the ghettos in sealed freight trains to extermination camps where, if they survived the journey, they were killed in gas chambers. The killing continued until the end of World War II in Europe in May 1945.”
To be more factual, shouldn’t the sentence read: “...if they survived the journey, those the Nazi camp authorities deemed physically fit to work were made slave laborers under brutal conditions with little chance of ultimate survival, and those who were not deemed fit to work were summarily killed in gas chambers.”
I don’t think this point is at all disputed or contentious The camp selection processes are well known. My point is that as written the passage is simply historically inaccurate. However, because of the extremely sensitive nature of this subject, I don’t want to make any substantive change without first clearing it with the consensus of other editors. Thank you. HistoryBuff14 ( talk) 17:32, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Auschwitz was a camp complex it was Both (Auschwitz was the largest of the German Nazi concentration camps and extermination centers.) http://auschwitz.org/en/ @ HistoryBuff14: Jack90s15 ( talk) 18:39, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
217.210.93.240 ( talk) 21:31, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
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The International Red Cross has since proven with physical evidence that the number of deaths actually caused by Nazi Germany was around the 315,000 mark as a huge amount of the original tally of deaths included those who died of the typhus epidemic that plagued Germany during WW2, the epidemic was made worse by bombing runs on medical supply routes and towns like Dresden.
Evidence of this can be found looking at the 1938 and 1948 Red Cross sensus based on religious views, Jewish numbers increased dramatically over this period which furthermore contradicts the 6 million death totals and goes more in line with the 315,000 deaths. 49.182.47.111 ( talk) 08:14, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
Have the Red Cross numbers been released? Where, when? Is there any source giving evidence other than "eyewitness" statements - ie forensic, etc?
2601:181:8301:4510:5008:B8C2:A3EB:786D (
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15:03, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
"Of Poland's 3.3 million Jews, about 90 percent were killed.[369] Many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.[403]"
Since 90 percent is the first reference to the number of Jews killed in Poland, it makes no sense to continue with "many more", since it doesn't contrast against anything. That many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported than the total number of polish Jews killed is impossible, so I guess it's leftover from an earlier edit referring to Jews killed somewhere else than the ghettos. Just dropping "more" from the sentence would make it correct, although if it referred to some other figure earlier, why isn't that still there? Shouldn't changes made to protected articles be mentioned in the talk page? 217.210.93.240 ( talk) 21:18, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
but was changed to read:Around one million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories, [1] an approximate figure, since the Einsatzgruppen reports did not always survive the war. [2] Many more died through execution or of disease and malnutrition in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported.
In my opinion, this edit, at least in this part of the change, was not an improvement, and confused the situation. And now the article contains the two sentences you quoted, which is worse.Around one million Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen in the occupied Soviet territories. [1] [2] Many more died in the ghettos of Poland before they could be deported. [3] For the death camps, 80–90 percent of the victims are estimated to have been Jews. They accounted for half the total number of Jews killed.
References
The Judenrate were formed at the beginning of the war and used to create the ghettos. Xx236 ( talk) 06:58, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Many of the Nuremberg trial pages link to mazal.org for Nuremberg tribunal reports, or link it as a general external reference. I'm not sure what used to be there, but now it's a blank page which shows a CAPTCHA button on the 1st visit claiming it will verify further (but appears to be timing-based to prevent the redirect from being followed) then redirects to getsplendidapps.com and asks for an unsigned extension / addon to be installed (in Firefox 66.0.5). I'm changing these to point to the NMT .pdf copies on the library of congress website when I find them, but I'm posting here so others editing sub-pages can be on the lookout. A Shortfall Of Gravitas ( talk) 05:10, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
The Holocaust has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add "Genocide" at the beginning of the article:
{{Genocide}} 209.232.148.106 ( talk) 15:29, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
The Third Reich murdered millions of Slavs, including Poles, but according to some academicians the vicitms produced the Third Reich. Pure revisionism. Xx236 ( talk) 07:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Polish government in exile did. Some Polish Catholics in terrorized Poland did, see Protest!. If you quote a biased text, you are oblidged to quote other opinions as well. Xx236 ( talk) 07:32, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
A masterpiece of German propaganda. The outside world was responsible, we Germans did nothing, we only performed our orders. Performing orders is part of German culture.
Xx236 ( talk) 07:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
The word collaborators has two meanings - allies of Germany and collaborators in occupied lands. The link in the lead misinforms, you completely ignore in the lead the allies of Nazi Germany, described in Germany's allies subsection. Xx236 ( talk) 05:35, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
It's trash, not a definition. You link Collaboration with the Axis Powers which doesn't include Nazi Allies. The collaborators weren't always local. You don't define collaboration. Hans Lemberg wrote ironically Was Kollaboration ist, weiß jedermann allready in 1972. Xx236 ( talk) 11:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Jack90s15, if you copy text from another WP article, please state in the edit summary that "this edit" copies text from wherever. Your edit summary of 10 June UTC, "content in this article was copied from Einsatzgruppen on June 9th 2019," makes it seem that my edits to Einsatzgruppen on 9 June were copied.
Having said that, it isn't a good idea to copy text from elsewhere on WP, because it could mean that this article inherits the other article's problems, such as relying on old sources. Also, text written to flow well in one article might not work elsewhere. Finally, I don't know whether you checked the sources before copying it over; the sources would have to be checked. SarahSV (talk) 04:51, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Przemysław Wielgosz is a radical left activist. He is neither academic nor neutral. He doesn't belong here as a reliable sources. If Wielgosz is quoted, a radical right opinion is needed to preserve neutrality. Xx236 ( talk) 11:50, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Austrians participated in designing and implementing the Holocaust, their share is ignored here. Austria is mentioned because of Mauthausen like Poland because of Auschwitz. There was however no symmetry, Austrians murdered both in Mauthausen and in Auschwitz. Xx236 ( talk) 10:15, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
We already have an article on Austria under National Socialism. Dimadick ( talk) 15:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
A number of June threads were archivized closing unfinished discusisons.
If an academic paper describes euthanasia in Austria, why not The Holocaust in Austria? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18165987~~
The page should be linked. It's a basic question. Xx236 ( talk) 10:09, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Is the difference between Serbia and Croatia obvious? Serbia was occupied by Germany (which was governed by a combination of military and police administrators, German ones, which isn't written) and Croatia was nominally independent, which is written. Xx236 ( talk) 10:35, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin
[5] replaced official investigation data with obsolete Gross' thesis of 1,600 victims. What is the reason to replace seroious data with Communist propaganda and to qualify such edit as expansions? What is the reason to accuse pre-war Poland, which was a vicitm of Nazi Germany?
Xx236 (
talk)
11:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
If you don't know the Holocaust was designed and implemented by Germany (and annected Austria), not by Poland. Using German sources against Poland is controversial. Some German politicians and academicians transfer responsibility from Germany and Austria to Poland or local collaborators. Editors of this page participate in the transfer, refusing to discuss their errors and manipulations.
Yantarny,_Kaliningrad_Oblast#Massacre_of_Palmnicken Xx236 ( talk) 11:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
In arguing with someone about the total number of people who died in the Holocaust I came across a bit of an interesting problem. Some sources seem to say the Holocaust is a term specific to Jewish victims and others use it to include all (civilian) groups systematically targeted by the Nazis.
Does it make sense to note civilian victims of systematic murder in the Holocaust description sidebar, perhaps called out separately? Inclusion of POWs seems iffy to me, but all others amount for another 8-10 million people.
Per /info/en/?search=Holocaust_victims and it's sources
Victims | Murdered |
---|---|
Jews | 5–6 million |
Soviet citizens | 5.7 million(excl. 1.3 million Jews) |
Soviet POWs | 2.8–3.3 million |
Poles | 1.8–3 million |
Serbs | 300,000–600,000 |
Disabled | 270,000 |
Romani | 130,000–500,000 |
Freemasons | 80,000–200,000 |
Slovenes | 20,000–25,000 |
Spanish Republicans | 7,000 |
Homosexuals | 5,000–15,000 |
Jehovah's Witnesses |
1,250–5,000 |
Catskul ( talk) 20:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
The lead contains undefined notion of local collaborators. I have asked several times why the local ones are accused and the non-local ones ignored. Was Romania a local collaborator? The text doesn't inform about Axis powers and Tripartite Pact. Xx236 ( talk) 06:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
NYCJosh, the Liberation section has a strong ending with the quote from Dimbleby. The text you want to add would be more appropriate in the Aftermath section:
With more sources and written differently, it could perhaps have its own sub-section in the Aftermath section. Note that it's discussed in Aftermath of the Holocaust, without sources. Perhaps it would be better to add the sources there. SarahSV (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Austria and Poland were invided and later there were concentration camps in both, one in Austria and plenty in Poland. Xx236 ( talk) 06:26, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
They were invaded, not invited. See main article invasion. Dimadick ( talk) 11:08, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The subsection informs about a few punished leaders. The majority of middle class criminals wasn't punished. West-German policy of pretending de-Nazification deserves to be mentioned here. Xx236 ( talk) 06:13, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
German courts demanded - or at least appreciated - evidence. Except in a few cases of political importance they were unable to drum up any believable "evidence".
Seeing as how all the "extermination" of Jews, Gypsies, etc happened in Russian post war controlled territory it is imperative to search Russian archives for "evidence". Good project for a true historian - some ( most? ) evidence that we now have come from a relatively small handfull of "survivors".
By the way have the Aroson files been released in their totality?
2601:181:8301:4510:F556:9CE7:C5F9:FBB (
talk)
15:41, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin, pls refrain from hedging the article text regarding the Lviv pogrom, by removing the clear reference to Ukrainian nationalists and their supporters, changing it to Ukrainian nationalists and local people than hedging the statement by adding 50 percent non-Jewish Poles, 32 percent Jews, and 16 percent Ukrainians. There is ample evidence that the participants of this pogrom were Ukrainains and not anyone else. Including the fact that the culmination of the massacres "Petlura days" refers to Symon Petliura who was the Supreme Commander of the Ukrainian Army in 1918-1921, and statement by the German officers themselves including this one "During the first hours after the departure of the Bolsheviks, the Ukrainian population took praiseworthy action against the Jews." -- E-960 ( talk) 19:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)