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I can't remember what the word was but I think "the consuming" is the term used by Romanis when referring to The Holocaust. -- Arima ( talk) 23:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Yad Vashem does not claim that 600,000 Serbs died in Jasenovac. The reference you are using mentions "many thousands" but not 600,000 http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206358.pdf . Please change it. Serbs also collaborated with Nazis, if that counts. MarinaJovljak ( talk) 01:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Are these figures accurate / in the vicinity at all / confirmed by anyone / still the official numbers?
(from)
The figures below are from the Nazi records which were turned over to the Red Cross by the Soviet Union after the fall of Communism. They were published in a book written by Danuta Czech.
Male prisoners in Auschwitz III Monowitz (Buna-Werke)
10,223 Golleschau 1,008 Jawischowitz (Jawiszowice) 1,988 Eintrachthutte (Swietochlowice) 1,297 Neu-Dachs (Jaworzno) 3,664 Blechhammer (Blachownia) 3,958 Furstengrube (Wesola) 1,283 Gute Hoffnung (Janinagrube, Libiaz) 853 Guntergrube (Ledziny) 586 Brunn (Brno) 36 Gleiwitz I 1,336 Gleiwitz II 740 Gleiwitz III 609 Gleiwitz IV 444 Laurahutte (Siemianowice) 937 Sosnowitz 863 Bobrek 213 Trzebinia 641 Althammer (Stara Kuznia) 486 Tschechowitz-Dzieditz 561 Charlottengrube (Rydultowy) 833 Hindenburg (Zabrze) 70 Bismarckhutte (Hajduki) 192 Hubertushutte (Lagiewniki) 202
Subtotal 33,023
Total for Auschwitz III : 35,118
Nunamiut (
talk)
12:24, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
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Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
World War II casualties holds to the notion that the Holocaust was not perpetrated against non-Jews, in stark contrast with this article (at least, this article makes mention of non-Jewish deaths in the header, then goes on to count non-Jewish deaths again later). Even the footnotes for the non-Jewish figures are given at the lowest possible estimates. I don't think non-Jews killed in the holocaust are even counted among the total killed in World War II in that article (which I have a rather strong opinion about). I think these two articles, being in close relation, need to come into harmony. Its very sloppy to see two pages on the same encyclopedia give extremely varied takes on the same subject. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 14:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I mentioned the notes. Those counted in the notes, where do they figure into the other tolls? Are they listed with civilian dead, or are they show in those tolls at all? Also, you didn't address where I mentioned that there is no room for variables in your death toll (I see no evidence that you read my post above at all). Why are you so defensive about others taking a look at your article? It seems you've had plenty of time with it over the past few years. IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 20:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)--
"Despite the chaos of the Soviet retreat, some effort was made to evacuate Jews, and about a million succeeded in escaping further east."
This sounds very intersting, but at the same time, very unsoviet. It has been tagged as unsourced for about a year. Has anyone ever heard of anything to this effect before. If not I'm probably going to remove it. - Schrandit ( talk) 06:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
>>According to general estimates based on overall Soviet evacuation statistics, 800,000 to 900,000 Jews fled from Ukraine during the massive Soviet evacuation to the east.<< From http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/H/O/Holocaust.htm And >>Rebecca Manley does a fine job of telling the tale of how [Soviet authorities] evacuated millions of people as the Germans advanced in 1941 and 1942 .<< http://newbooksinhistory.com/?cat=346 And >>In at least one place [in Soviet occupied Estonia] — Viliandi — the authorities actually encouraged the Jews to flee. Alfrida Pick, a veteran Communist who headed the local municipality, "personally went to all the Jews to persuade them to leave,"and as a result at least half of the Jews left for Russia, including old people who previously had not intended to leave.<< p 282 http://eja.pri.ee/Community/Dov%20Levin.pdf
No question in my mind that a million plus Jews did escape East from Ukraine, Belarus etc -- along with millions of Gentiles. The question for me is whether Jews were significantly favored because they were seen by Soviet officials as being in more danger. I doubt it. But certainly Jews were often more motivated to flee than Gentiles and probably because of their concentration in valued professions were more likely to be favored with tickets on trains etc.
AND I am puzzled by the statement at the end of first paragraph, "Death Squads" section:
>>The Soviet territories occupied by early 1942, including all of Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Moldova and most Russian territory west of the line Leningrad-Moscow-Rostov, contained about three million Jews, including hundreds of thousands who had fled Poland in 1939. The remaining three million were left at the mercy of the Nazis.<< Kits2 ( talk) 04:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I suggest >The Soviet territories occupied by German forces in early 1942 had contained in June 1941 about three million Jews. Perhaps a million escaped East in the general semi-organized Soviet retreat, leaving circa two million Jews on the former Soviet territory in Nazi hands. Kits2 ( talk) 04:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The idea that solid numbers exist or can be deduced is a misconception. To illustrate the point a Russian historian estimates that the figure of 25 million for total Soviet death as a consequence of World War II could be off by 5 million. (Braithwaite, Moscow 1942, p 309.
1941 was real chaotic on the Eastern front. And the areas occupied by the Germans in the first
month of the war generally had not been Soviet in 1939 -- the Soviet Union of June 22 1941
included something like 20 million Soviets (10% of the population) who were not Soviet on 15 Sept
1939 but Polish, Rumanian etc (see Table 4 http://www.freewebs.com/oshistory/baltic/resettlement/resettlement.htm )
Wikipedia should acknowledge that reliable figures do NOT exist and use words like "about" and "circa"
And I take the point above re "German". But I think "Axis" does not effectively convey that the forces were overwhelmingly German --- how about "Soviet territories occupied by Germany and her allies" Kits2 ( talk) 05:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Following the sentence: "Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy, and Norway." [now at the end of a paragraph] I suggest:
>>Albania was only country occupied by the Nazis that had a significantly larger Jewish population in 1945 than in 1939. About two hundred native Jews and over a thousand refugees were provided with false documents, hidden when necessary, and generally treated as honored guests in a country whose population was roughly 60% Muslim.<<
And a footnote: >>Shoah Research Center;– Albania http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205725.pdf The Jews of Albania during the Zogist and Second World War Periods: http://www.heimat.de/home/illyria/i.php3?s=e&p=2004_01_09_fisher_jews_in_albania and see also Norman H. Gershman's book Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews in World War II -- for reviews etc http://www.amazon.com/Besa-Muslims-Saved-Jews-World/dp/0815609345 (all consulted 24 June 2010)<<
Objections ?? Improvements ?? Kits2 ( talk) 20:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005469 - many German Jews were expelled before the war, so maybe two numbers should be given - the 90% (1939) and less than 50% (1933). German Wikipedia quotes three sources (numbers, no %) for European countries, Wolfgang Benz (2/1996) Enzyklopädie des Holocaust (4/2002) Burkhard Asmuss (1/2002). Dawidowicz's book is old (1986). Xx236 ( talk) 08:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
The Dawidowicz's number suggest that the fate of German Jews was the same like of the Ostjuden. It's not true, the majority of German Jews emigrated before the Holocaust. Xx236 ( talk) 06:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Could someone with more knowledge of this topic please take a look at German holokaust crimes against Soviet Jews and see if there is any information that can be used and guide the new editor in his approach to those sensible topics? Regards So Why 12:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
There is no mention of the Jewish Holocaust denial theories that are based on contradicting but cited facts. At the very least it should have a link to the Holocaust Denial page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.103.34 ( talk) 19:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a debate which exists which seeks to show that the mass murder of 6,000,000 Jews within their Holocaust was not unique. I don't think you can get any more unique than what the term implies and what the action of history now seeks to unravel. What was composed of a mass destruction, is a uniquely horrendous act of 'genocide', perpetrated by many against a largely Jewish contingent of victims. While it is true that not all victimes were Jews, all Jews were victims. see Elie Wiesel for such truth's. Patrick Dempsey.
Your statement contradicts your argument. You don't want anyone but Jews counted as holocaust victims, and yet you admit not all holocaust victims were Jews... On another note, please stop lining your posts with equals signs. Please sign your posts with --~~~~. Thank you. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 04:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)...it is true that not all victimes were Jews...
Why does this section exist, it seems to have no context and no real point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.35.57 ( talk) 01:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a book on the subject Is the Holocaust Unique?, but that already has an article. I don't think the debate exists much outside that book. I'll just put a link to that at the end. Epa101 ( talk) 15:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust, by definition, cannot only apply to the planned killing of all Jews in WWII. The Holocaust included Poles, Russians and Gypsies/Romani among others including "undesirable" Germans. What happened a few years ago in Ruwanda/Burundi was clearly also a Holcaust as was the slaughter of Armenians by the Turks. Certainly the Jews suffred a tremendous amount and were very much target but to ignore others within the term of Holcaust is simply denying an, unfortunate, label to other victims. Perhaps the term should be WWII Holocaust. Also remember that 6 million Poles were killed, of which 3 million happened to be of the Jewish faith.Just some thoughts.
Why is relocation of Jews to Palestine only mentioned once, in passing? The truth is that the Nazis supported the Zionist proposals to relocate German Jews to Palestine, and actually cooperated closely with them in many cases. The Nazis didn't aid in sending Jews to other lands - however, they expressly aided them to go to Palestine, tens of thousands of German Jews, and millions of dollars worth of German equipment and cash. This is well documented in other Wikipedia articles, such as the Haavara Agreement, and the information about the Stern Gang, and Aliyah Bet (only a few examples of many). The refugee ships coming to Palestine were coming from Nazi controlled areas - i.e. the Nazis were assisting them on their voyage to Palestine. The article about the Mefkura ship of 1944 from Romania states that "The German navy (i.e. Nazi navy) provided them with escort and signal flags to facilitate their departure from the harbour and the mined area around it." All this needs to be mentioned in this Holocaust article. The Nazis would have been happy if Europe's Jews had all left to go to Palestine, and only resorted to the Holocaust methods later, during the desperation of war. After all, the British were not permitting the Jews to settle in Palestine, and the ships that were sent out from Nazi Germany (under the auspices of the Nazis), were turned around by Britain and the U.S. and sent back to Nazi Germany. The factor that the Nazis were encouraging and supporting Jews to go specifically to Palestine should be clearly portrayed in this Holocaust article, and is well documented (as is seen in the articles referred to above). Jimhoward72 ( talk) 11:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The Mefukar's departure in August 1944 was facilitated by the Nazi navy in the sense that they did not want the ship blown up by one of their own mines BUT this was in a context of not wanting to irritate the Rumanian government who had agreed to the departure or the Turkish government, the ship was carrying a Turkish flag -- and in the context of a war that the Nazis were clearly loosing and thus the Nazis were increasingly anxious to keep their friends friendly and neutrals neutral. And the Germans had tried to prevent the issuance of exit visas and the ships being refitted. http://books.google.ca/books?id=vpjLBrFvtbsC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=Mefkura&source=bl&ots=jrD47ABOVD&sig=39w-KmoVEQ3ZIpzysLv05HERuhU&hl=en&ei=YH0pTLevCtnsnQfDjdCaAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mefkura&f=false
And the mass killing of the Holocaust began circa July 1941 but the Haavara agreement effectively ended once Britain was at war with Germany in September 1939. Certainly the Nazi's were interested in seeing Jews leave territory they controlled until perhaps 1940, but not just to Palestine. (The Danish Jewish exodus to Sweden of 1943 was arguably facilitated by German Nazis, e.g. the German navy pulled its patrol boats into Danish harbours for 'repairs'. See http://diemperdidi.info/nordicnotes/vol03/articles/lopresto.html )
Re: >>The Nazis would have been happy [in mid 1939] if Europe's Jews had all left to go to Palestine, and only resorted to the Holocaust methods later, during the desperation of war.<< That sentence from the first paragraph of this section -- without the disgusting Nazi apologist/ excusing phrase "desperation of" might be true for Hitler pre September 1939. The Holocaust article, however, is primarily about the Nazi actions of mass murder (directed overwhelmingly against Jews who were not in Nazi controlled territory in mid 1939) and is not concerned with the frame of mind of the mass murderers well before mass murder commenced. (For the record: Jews were certainly murdered by Nazis in 1938, think Kristalnacht and its aftermath.) Kits2 ( talk) 06:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
In my view, plans for forced resettlement of roughly post September 1939 have a very different quality than the pre Sept 1939 Haavarah emigration. In my view, the Haavarah agreement should be discussed in section 3.2 "Legal repression and emigration" and not in 3.7 "Resettlement and deportation to colonies ..." (but it could be referenced in passing in that section.)
And the section in 3.2 dealing with emigration needs to be rewitten -- its real thin, mentions some well known names but gives no sense that most German Jews did get out, and survived the war. The Holocaust Encylopedia > http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005468< does a good job with the history and their nine paragraphs could perhaps be condensed to three with a short paragraph on the Haavarah agreement.
The article should make clear that 1) in general until late 1941 Nazis were happy to see Jews emigrate -- per web site just mentioned: >Until October 1941, German policy officially encouraged Jewish emigration<, that 2) finding a country to immigrate to was difficult in part because Jewish property generally could not be taken from Germany. And 3) Jews emigrating to Palestine could transfer a large part of their property to Palestine because of the Haavarah agreement and thus propertied German Jews could easily procure 'capitalist' immigration visas to British controlled Palestine. (A book review dealing with the Haavarah agreement http://www.anthonyflood.com/murraythirdreichpalestine.htm ) Kits2 ( talk) 11:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
In the article's introduction, it refers to the Holocaust as genocide. "In the original definitions of the term Genocide by lawyer Rafael Lemkin (1943) there is an interesting contradiction: on the one hand, Lemkin defines Genocide as the "extermination" of a people; but on the other hand, he goes into great detail describing the selective mass murder of leadership by the perpetrators, the destruction of religious life, the appropriation by the perpetrators, the destruction of religious life, the appropriation by the perpetrators of economic advantage, and the moral corruption of the victims. Obviously, is people are murdered, they cannot be victimized by moral corruption. Lemkin's definitions were in essence, and with some amendations, taken over by the United Nations in its Genocide Convention of 1948, which has been signed by most countries of the world. What is suggested here is that of the two definitions offered by Lemkin, the second is what is here called Genocide, and the first, the total "extermination," is Holocaust. Obviously, they are closely interralated." - Yehuda Bauer (Leading Authority on Holocaust History) from: A History of the Holocaust (Revised Edition): Bauer, Yehuda, and Nili Keren. "Holocaust and Genocide - Is There a Difference?" A History of the Holocaust. New York: Franklin Watts, 2001. 363-364. Print.
I propose that the article be changed from "the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany." to, "the state-sponsored, systematic murder of approximately six million European Jews during World War II by Nazi Germany." Silencedeafensme ( talk) 16:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Silencedeafensme
The Nazis and the Black Holocaust When Adolf Hitler came to power in 1932, the racist policies of the Nazis impacted other groups besides the Jews. The Nazis' racial purity laws also targeted gypsies (Roma), homosexuals, the mentally challenged, and blacks. Precisely how many Afro-Germans died in Nazi concentration camps is not known, but estimates put the figure at between 25,000 and 50,000.
http://german.about.com/od/culture/a/blackhistger_2.htm 68.245.137.36 ( talk) 21:18, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} Please change the following second paragraph under the heading "Extermination Camps" From 'Extermination camps are frequently confused with concentration camps such as Dachau and Belsen, which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labor for a variety of enemies of the Nazi regime (such as Communists and gays).' to 'Extermination camps are frequently confused with concentration camps such as Dachau and Belsen, which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labor for a variety of enemies of the Nazi regime (such as Communists and homosexuals). Due to the fact that 'gays' sounds colloquial and slang like therefore is not really appropriate in this article given the context. Thanks Claretindale ( talk) 13:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The article states that "some" scholars feel that "The Holocaust" should apply to all of those murdered by the nazis, and not just the Jews. It then lists one book, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust. That the term should apply to those other than Jews is not a mainstream belief, at least in this day and age. Therefore, the article should quote the specific book, and or authors on this, rather than use the term "some", which seems to at least brush against "avoid weasel words." 2tuntony ( talk) 16:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
This quotation is copied all across the Internet, with an identical translation and citation. For that reason, I doubt that whoever added it here saw the actual source, and they probably got it from some gun control-related website instead. If we can't find the original source we should remove it. It's more about gun control than about the subject of this article. Will Beback talk 04:29, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Most of the material (not all) under Resettlement and deportation to colonies and reservations, actually belongs together with Legal repression and emigration. It is completely out of place chronologically where it is now. I'm going to move it, if no one minds. Jimhoward72 ( talk) 21:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The original meaning of Holocaust is not destruction. It's 'burnt offering' or 'sacrifice by fire'. Any etymology dictionary will say so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.86.121.87 ( talk) 12:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this note is necessary, but, given the sensitive nature of the subject, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Under the section of the news of the death camps, there was a line reading: "In 1943, the news about gassing Jews was broadcast from London to The Netherlands." An entry in Anne Frank's diary, however, dated 9 October 1942, refers to English radio broadcasts about the gassing. So, I have added this in a few paragraphs above (in order to fit with the chronological ordering), given the reference to the Dutch edition (2008) of the diary, quoted the relevant sentence (and my English translation of it), and removed the sentence referring to 1943. I have then re-written the "It" at the start of the next sentence as "News of the gassings", because that appears to have been the intention. If someone would prefer to give a published English translation of the sentence, that is fine, but the original Dutch should remain, so that there is no mistake about the specific wording used by Anne Frank.
Please also note that, on this, I am using Anne Frank's Diary as a historical primary document, and am simply ignoring the debate about its authenticity.
Finally, there is a problem with this section, in that it has the dates (April–June 1944) in the heading, but the discussions start as early as 1940, so perhaps it needs to be re-worked, or the heading changed. Kmasters0 ( talk) 13:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The intro says "Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents."
As we are mentioning the other groups including less numerous groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses I think mention should be made of the Catholics, an estimated 3000 Polish Catholic Clergy were killed, 2,600 killed in Dachau, 80% of Clergy in Reichsgau Wartheland were killed. Also some Protestant groups were persecuted see -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Religious_persecution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.36.20.132 ( talk) 13:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Somebody knows what Churban means? If someone does, pleas put it in ethymology. -- Enkiduk ( talk) 07:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Result: There is no consensus to move the article at this time. ~~ GB fan ~~ 06:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust →
Holocaust — Unless I'm missing something, I would strongly have expected the article on the Holocaust to be at "Holocaust" rather than "The Holocaust", per
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name). That is why we use
White House instead of
The White House, or
United States rather than
The United States, or
Rwandan Genocide rather than
The Rwandan Genocide. The disambiguation page is located at
Holocaust (disambiguation), and as the mass murder of the Jews during WW2 is clearly the primary topic (
Holocaust already redirects here), there wouldn't appear to be an issue with disambiguation. There are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of
pages that link to "Holocaust", which suggests that most people expect this page o be located there. Most other encyclopedias use "Holocaust", such as
Encyclopedia Britannica.
City of
Destruction
23:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
The information describes to be sent left was to the gas chambers, to be sent right forced labour. To my knowledge, this is true, but that is facing away from the entrance to aushwitz, the picture is facing to the entrance. This does have relevance to the picture as the SS officer is clearly pointing to the gas chamber hence why the women with the baby is going there. I don't want to change anything without discussing this first and getting the facts right. Shaunthered ( talk) 22:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
As the title of this article suggests, via etymology it clearly has failed to link to corresponding articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.0.76 ( talk) 19:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
"The writing is on the wall."
I appreciate that changes to articles like this are often controversial, so I'm asking here first. Basically, the current lead image is used here under the non-free content criteria- meanwhile, we have a a large number of free images which illustrate the subject. Could we please have a free image to lead the article? J Milburn ( talk) 22:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
It is wrong to define the Holocaust as the murder of 6 million EUROPEAN jews. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum took out the word "European" in 2006, following request from top Holocaust scholars. Yad Vashem tells the story of the Shoah in French North Africa - Tunisia, ALgeria and Morocco, in Italian Libya, in Iraq (Farhud) and in Palestine.
See hsitorically correct map of German expansion at: http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/about/related/maps/german_expansion.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edith Perlman ( talk • contribs) 00:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust is a Jewish tragedy as stated by Sir Martin Gilbert, who correctly declared that the Holocaust in French North Africa was part of the Shoah in France. It is very unfortunate that there is a wrong consensus to make the Holocaust a European event - the Nazi regime planned to kill Jews - period. The RESULTS of the Final Solution was the tragic destruction of Jewish communities in the continent of Europe.
Holocaust scholars cannot state that the specifity of the Shoah was that the Nazi regime wanted to kill Jews everywhere (correct statement by Bauer), and then limit the genocide of the Jews to the European continent.
A correct meaningful definition of the Holocaust as per statements by Yehuda Bauer, Sir Martin Gilbert, Himmler, Hitler, the USHMM and others:
Definitions that focus only on antisemitism in the ideology of the perpetrators and only on Jews as victims, limit the scope of Holocaust education. Elie Wiesel appropriately declared that all the Jews were victims, but not all the victims were Jewish. Y. Bauer, an Israeli scholar and a most respected authority on the subjects of the Holocaust, declared that Nazism’s goal to reorganize humanity according to race all over the globe did not endanger the Jews only. The Nazis planned to implement a global solution to the Jewish question, and to create a racist world dominated by the “Aryan” race. He explained that the unprecedentedness of the Holocaust is “based on unprecedentedness of National Socialism/Nazism as a threat to all humans” – thus, Shaked stated: The Nazis decided who did not have the right to live. I combined different definitions (mainly Bauer; Yad Vashem, and the USHMM), and came up my own definition, which I think reflect the impact of Nazism and the historical realities of the Holocaust era:
The Holocaust refers to the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored massacre by the Nazi regime and its collaborators, of more than 11 million undesirable ‘others’/Christians/Gentiles and Jews, during the Holocaust era, 1933-45. Because of WHO they are: “Although Jews were the primary victims, millions of others/Gentiles/Christians labeled “undesirable,” “enemies of the state,” or “subhuman” were also murdered. “Nazis targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority:" Roma (Gypsies), the handicapped - the physically and mentally challenged - at least 200,000 mentally or physically disabled people were murdered in the Euthanasia Program-, the “Black” or Afro-German, African-American and Jewish American soldiers, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles - the Germans targeted the Christian Polish intelligentsia for killing, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet citizens for forced labor in Germany or in occupied Poland; Russians - more than three million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or maltreatment, and others).
Because of WHAT they did: Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds - because of WHAT they did: Among them Communists, Socialists and trade unionists, Jehovah's Witnesses - religious dissidents- and homosexuals (from the earliest years of the Nazi regime, homosexuals and others deemed to be behaving in a socially unacceptable way were persecuted). Many of these individuals died as a result of incarceration and maltreatment.” Shoah. “At the center of the Holocaust stood the Shoah. Shoah is a Hebrew term, “meaning great disaster, and also applied to such natural catastrophes as floods and earthquakes.” “The word Shoah was chosen in Israel and institutionalized by the Knesset on April 12, 1951, when it established Yom Ha-Shoah Ve Mered Ha-Getaot, the national day of remembrance.”
The Hebrew term Sho’ah is used to describe the murder of approximately six million Jews including 1,500,000 children, the almost complete destruction of the European Jewish communities, and the attempt to annihilate the Jewish people, from France in the west to the Soviet Union in the east and from Latvia in the north to French North Africa and Italian Libya in the south, in Iraq (Farhud), and in the rest of the world.
I once read that part of the motivation behind the Holocaust was lack of food in Nazi Germany. It's rational (however immoral) to assume that, faced with this problem, Nazi leadership would chose to let the least valuable segment of their population die in a manner which would not lead to riots and unrest. A line from the article supports this: "...their clothes and other possessions were seized by the Nazis to help fund the war." Why would someone bother seizing prisoner's clothes unless you were in a very dire economic situation?
I don't know if this is true or widely supported. But, I do know this article has very little information about the point of view of the Nazis and their reasons for performing the Holocaust. A government doesn't set up a incredibly complicated logistics system just because they are immoral and want to slaughter people. Also, the mass murder of Holocaust victims did not start until late in the war, even though the concentration camps were founded earlier. Something had to have changed to cause the Nazi leadership to move from working Jews to death to purposefully killing them. What was it? -- Acewolf359 ( talk) 17:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
You made a good point about starvation. Many Jews and non-Jewish political prisoners, died in Poland during the years of 1944-1945 of starvation and nutrition related diseases. This happened because the Allies bombed supply lines. They did this know the casualties. I would like a discussion as to why this should be put in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.212.141 ( talk) 04:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Some users are sticking to isert Japanese war crimes and delete Japanese Jew related links. [1] [2] [3] Japanese policy was anti holocost, Japanese war crimes were no relavence to holocost. Is there anti-Japanese sentiment?-- Bukubku ( talk) 14:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't find United States war crimes, British war crimes... in this page. Why insert Japanese war crimes? Why delete Japanese good deed for Jew. 442nd Infantry Regiment (United States) is relevant to Holocaust, but I dont find in this page. This page disguize Japanese good deed and disparag Japan.-- Bukubku ( talk) 15:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The "Related Links" section is not simply a list of war crimes committed by various countries. It is a list of articles/events that bear some resemblance to characteristics of the Holocaust described in this article. This includes the Japanese war crimes article. I am removing the newly added links to Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, British war crimes, Italian war crimes, Jew war crimes, and United States war crimes, which are clearly out of context, and don't describe in general Holocaust similar events, as described in the present article. Jimhoward72 ( talk) 08:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure what is going on here. Bukubku's edit warring seems to be making a point about genocides which doesn't have much to do with an article on the Holocaust. I am not sure of the link to Japanese war crimes in this article are very important. But it is clear to me that the section on Japanese Policy of..... is out of place in an article on the Holocaust. The points made are important, but belong (and are present) in other articles. What is more these points are well discussed in many English books (i.e. David Kanzler) and thus there is not need for references which cannot be read by those who do not read Japanese. I do hope that this point is obvious to those who know anything about the Holocaust and will not turn into another edit war. Joel Mc ( talk) 21:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
-Primo Levi’s Memoir: “Thousands of individuals, differing from age, condition, origin, language, culture and customs are enclosed within barbed wire: there they live a regular, controlled life which was identical for all and inadequate to all needs, and which is much more rigorous than any experimenter could have set up to established what is essential and what adventitious to the conduct of the human animal in the struggle for life.”
-Recollection from concentration camp prisoner: “the Kapo (commander) of our unit killed a friend of mine because he was not standing up straight.” Roll calls were held when inmates returned from work, at midnight, and even for an entire day. Roll call was when workers would be ordered into formation.
-Kapo’s were sometimes 18 years old. One was reported to have killed 400 Jew’s for their food rations.
-Camp work included working in underground stone quarries for a year without seeing daylight.
-A Usual work day was seventeen hours of work and two to five hours of sleep.
-One inmate had frostbitten feet. The German guards responded to his problem by wrapping paper around his feet and sending him back to work in the snow.
- The diet of inmates consisted of bead chunks made of flour and sawdust, watery soup that was spoiled and spoiled sausage.
-Prison Guards were rewarded for ordering inmates to do impossible tasks (such as running to washrooms even when the inmate did not know where it was) and then beating them to death for not being able to comply. Sadistic fun was normal.
-Some Inmates were worked so far to exhaustion that the inmate would intentionally provoke the German Overseer to shoot him dead. Jewish infants would sometimes be tossed up in the air and shot by German soldiers.
-Practice of religion was punishable by death
- Obedience was more dangerous than disobedience. Anything could be stolen. If people obeyed they were frostbitten, starved literally to death, and deprived of sleep enough to die of exhaustion. Therefore they were called mussulmans (zombies).
- Most Holocaust survivors were non-Jews
“In Odessa, on October 23, 1941, 19,000 people were taken to a square, doused with gasoline, and set afire.” Daily Life During the Holocaust
Jews have been hated since the middle-ages.
Birkanau or Auschwitz II Concentration camp killed almost 12,000 people a day by the use of gas chambers disguised as showers for Jewish inmates.
Experiments on dead and alive death camp inmates were conducted by the Nazi’s at Bikanau, the German experimenters had little to no medical training. Some inmates would volunteer to be experimented in exchange for food to eat. Experiments included being injected with typhus, malaria, various other diseases and gasoline just to see the effects of the injection.
-People had to wait in line for hours to get one food ration which sometimes never came. Surviving on this diet was beyond possible.
-Water used for drinking and washing was polluted. People even got to the point where they traded their clothes for food. 96.238.183.115 ( talk) 20:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
There was a factual mistake in the article. Look the table in the section titled " Extermination Camps". The reference '139' "Yad Vashem" does NOT say that 600,000 died in Jasenovac. Take a look: http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%206358.pdf . The USHMM puts the figure of victims in Jasenovac (including Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Jews and Roma) to 100,000. Yahalom Kashny ( talk) 21:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} Please correct typo: considerd -> considered
Reineke80 ( talk) 20:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Continuing what I wrote above, this section is grossly out of place here in the section "Development and execution". In fact there is no mention of the policy of the other Axis power, Italy in this article. Japanese policy is presented at: Japanese Response I propose to delete the section within the next couple of days. Joel Mc ( talk) 11:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Thousands and thousands of non-Jews were killed by the Nazi's, why does the opening paragraph state that the Holocaust only refers to the Jewish dead, there were more than just Jews at the camps, everbody knows that and changes should be made, this is the 21st century, we should have gotten this right by now.
The first paragraph should be a summary of the whole doc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.14.173.77 ( talk) 13:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
I noticed in the section titled "Pogroms (1939–1942)" it says: "[...]on June 30, 1941, in which as many 14,000 Jews were killed by Romanian residents and police [...]" It should say "as many AS". 186.19.195.227 ( talk) 07:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but the article dwells too much on some aspects and does grand leaps and bounds of over sections. It also reiterates itself time and time again. It needs a good copyeditor to trim it and move wads of material to sub articles, where the information can be expanded and looked at more closely without filling up the main article. In simplicity itself, this article should be the main introduction to the whole topic.
Besides there isn't even a mention of Action 14f13, come on!! If this is mean to to be encyclopdic quality drop the pop culture style and present the facts in a more tidy way, cross referenced with ever other page on the Holocaust. This page is the one stop shop gateway to the whole topic, not just another article among many similar articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.5.223 ( talk) 00:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised to see no mention of Irving or Zundel. Any reason? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.40.140 ( talk) 12:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph uses the following test:
"a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination"
The Holocaust article should be reserved only for Jewish victims. Mention of homosexuals, mentally challenged, Romani and other people should, perhaps, be moved to a different article, or perhaps, included in individual articles like Genocide of Romani People etc... Yahalom Kashny ( talk) 01:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
"The following figures from Lucy Dawidowicz show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country"
Numbers please. Did six million Jews die in the holocaust? Is that what the author is saying?
Ok sorry just noticed that it states 6 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.129.233 ( talk) 19:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Under "Legal repression and emigration," the first paragraph after the quoted material, second line, "through" should be "though," and "owning" should be "owing." Proofraeder ( talk) 08:11, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
A while back I gave numerous sources supporting the view that the Holocaust was driven by German beliefs that Jews were too heavily involved at an elite level in German society. Since then, nothing has been done. In fact the section is worse now because it invokes eugenics, whereas in reality the Nazis targetted Jews because they thought they were too smart, not too stupid.
I would like to add another cause: the perception shared by Hitler and the political right in general that Jews were behind communist movements and that communism was an ideology to promote the interests of Jews. This is elaborated upon in the Jewish Bolshevism article. Lenin's right hand man, Leon Trotsky was a Jew, Bela Khun, Hungarian communist leader was a Jew, the leader of the Bavaria Soviet Republic was a Jew, as were the two leaders of the Spartacist Berlin uprising of 1919. Of course, this could be regarded as a coincidence but it nevertheless is critical to understanding the National Socialist worldview.
It's stunning that none of these basic facts are in the article.
71.65.71.145 ( talk) 20:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Can somebody retouch this map? It supposedly shows Europe at the height of Nazi domination in (late?) 1942 (when the Holocaust had really kicked into gear) but the borders are very crudely drawn, and is filled with loads of mistakes. To name just one thing, Italy never annexed that large a part of France. Compare with this correct one. A smaller version that is being used for showing the Führer Headquarters has the same problem, it just shows less of it.-- Morgan Hauser ( talk) 14:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Large numbers of Serb civilians died in WWII, but NOT as result of the Holocaust but rather just Ustasha policy of the completely insane "chaotic terror" (USHMM). Serbia was a Nazi puppet state complete with the Serbisches SS-Freiwilligen Korps, the notorious self-proclaimed Serbian Gestapo and such (not to mention the Chetnik turncoat collaborators). The Ustasha were the Croat-fascists of the Croat Nazi puppet state, they murdered a lot of Serbs and non-Serbs alike, and the Serb-fascist collaborators slaughtered a lot of people too, but nothing of this was ordered by the Germans but by their own "authorities" - they just hated each other's guts (the Chetniks also slaughtered the Muslims), plus political killings. There were (of course) also deaths due to the anti-partisan operations (against the Yugoslav Partisan movement, at first also against the Chetniks before they changed the sides), which was also not part of the Holocaust - but of WWII (a rather brutal war, you know).
The Serbs were simply not targeted in the Holocaust, they were never in German plans of extermination and for example the Serb ethnic minority in Germany were treated as 100% "Aryan" Germans by the Nazis (and in 1945 many were murdered by the invading Soviets as such). Plus the fact the Serbs even had their own "independent" state, and as I said, there was even the multi-thousand strong Serbian (ethnic Serbs of Serbia) volunteer Waffen-SS formation. Otherwise, you may add just any civilian/POW who died in all the territories under German occupation regardless of circumstances as a "victim of the Holocaust", which I guess would be pretty stupid, no?
USHMM article on WWII in Yugoslavia explains the situation further, even as not mentioning the 1945 Yugoslav massacres of Germans, Austrians, Italians and other minorities, but ending with this very true sentence: "In the vicious propaganda supporting the violence in Yugoslavia in the 1990s were numerous references to events in the former Yugoslavia during the Holocaust era." -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 23:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd welcome a discussion that would lead to cosnensus on a Wikipedia policy on that matter. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 01:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
What a great discussion. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 14:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I propose to entirely eliminate the false idea of "the Serbs" being the victims of the Holocaust from the text of this article. Not only they were not targeted by the Nazi extermination policies, but they were considered to be fully "Aryan" citizens of the Reich, they had "their own" (puppet) country with autonomous (fascist) administration and a lot of armed collaborationist formations (not unlike the Vichy French state - or the Croat NDH for that matter), they even had their own (Serb by ethnicity and name) Waffen-SS legion (also not unlike the French - and the Croats, except no one is saying the French and the Croats were victims of the Holocaust somehow).
The local Serbs were victims of the Ustasha (Croat fascist) genocide in Croatia and Bosnia, which was as unrelated to the Holocaust and Nazism in general as for example the genocide of the local Poles by the Ukrainian nationalists in 1943. A good summary of what happened is the following: "So far as the Great Croat chauvinists are concerned, one of their defining moments came in May 1941, when the Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic, newly installed at the head of the Nazi-puppet ‘Independent State of Croatia’, signed a treaty that ceded without struggle a large part of the Croatian coast to Fascist Italy. He then proceeded to try to divert the popular anger of the outraged Croatian public away from the Italians and against the apparently defenceless Serb civilian population of the Croatian puppet state – only to find that his anti-Serb genocidal campaign generated a popular resistance, among Serbs and others, that his sorry armed forces were incapable of suppressing, leading him to ever-greater acts of grovelling dependency on his German and Italian masters. Pavelic and his fellow leading Ustasha murderers fled the country in 1945, leaving the remnants of the puppet Croatian army and the civilians who had remained loyal to it to bear the brunt of Partisan retaliation." [5] It was completely unrelated to any policies by Berlin. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 15:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Weren't there blacks, gays and others murdered in the holocaust? The first paragraph is very misleading, as it makes out that only jews were killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sk8r2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Diden`t the Jews create Hitler, and provoke their own Holocaust? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.60.41 ( talk) 22:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is just above 241,000 bytes. It is really too long, and needs to be split. I notice that this has been brought up on the talk page before (checking the archives). Way back in January 2010, the article went to 190,589. That was already way too long. ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 20:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Its been said here but apparently it needs to be said again, the Holocaust was not just of the Jews. The article even mentions a good word to use if you just want to talk about Jewish victims, the Shoah. The holocaust involved the Roma as well as the Jews, the Hitler regime explicitly stated their desire to eliminate the Roma people, they also explicitly stated plans to purge people with birth defects or handicaps and homosexuals, I don't see how it can possibly be said these victims are secondary to Jews are their lives worth less and their deaths less significant?. Plans were also made to kill a third of Russians, Poles and other Slavs, which includes Serbians, make a third slaves and forcibly convert the most Aryan looking ones to be Germans. That is a genocide, according to the Wikipedia article on WW2 16 percent of Poles were killed about 14 percent of Soviets were killed with half of those being civilian casualties. In regards to the comments on Serbia. In a disgusting piece of revisionist history it seems this article is suggesting Serbs are Nazi allies. It was Yugoslavia, but mainly the Serbians, who decided to stand up to the Nazis on their march east when Romania Bulgaria and Hungary allied with Germany In the Jasenovic concentration camp Nazi Croatians killed 750,000 people they killed much of the Roma and Jewish population of the time, but the majority of the victims of that camp were Serbs. Serbs also made up about 80 percent of the Partisans fighters. Nazis are not all German Croatian Nazis are no less Nazis and their is no reason to separate their actions from the rest of the Holocaust.
I am aware that I am not citing all my sources and I never edit Wikipedia articles but this one is a travesty as someone of Roma descent. To this day the media and civil society in general tends to be quick to respond with condemnation to Anti Semetic comments largely because people are aware of the horror of what happened in the Holocaust. Negative comments and actions towards Roma are usually tolerated. Perhaps that would be different if the Roma were given equal mention in the history of the Holocaust —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.209.239 ( talk) 09:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The site holocaustresearchproject.org was spam blaklisted in 2006. The request on Meta is available here. I am considering asking for delisting, but before that I want to start a discussion on the usefulness of the site.
The original request was made by User:JzG after some mild spamming with the following motivation "A ludicrously inaccurate site of no conceivable encyclopaedic value," with a link to a blog posting at holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.
Studying the blog I found out the following:
All this is far too complicated to make out who are the good guys and who the bad guys. The site itself however seems useful. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 11:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that deathcamps.org is also blacklisted – and checked the history. The blacklisting in 2007 resulted from and intellectual property dispute between deathcamps.org and death-camps.org (now defunct). See Meta:Talk:Spam blacklist#Intellectual property dispute / deathcamps.org. Most of the original argumentation is now moot, as the mirror site death-camps.org no longer exists. The remaining argument against deathcamps.org seems to be, that the Holocaust Controversies blog claims that some of the primary sources presented at the site are not genuine.
Here is what what I have found of the previous discussion.
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 21:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The article states as fact that Nazi Germany conducted a "programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination", and that "two-thirds of the population of nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust were killed". Both statements are historically disputed (and I don't mean by Holocaust deniers). It is not accepted fact that the Holocaust was a systematic programme - officially it wasn't, and evidence that it was officially approved campaign is inconclusive. That uncertainty should be noted. The numbers who died included many (probably the majority) who died rather than were deliberately killed. The distinction is not purely semantic. So it should be noted that there were 6 million (if we accept that number, which is another debate) who died of disease and starvation etc, or were deliberately massacred in concentration camps and elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnC ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 19 February 2011
This is one way in which this article can be improved: In general, this article needs to be dissociated from the idea that the nation of Germany or "Germans" were solely responsible for the Holocaust. This is not simply a matter of terminology, it is a misrepresentation in the meaning of the terms. Suggesting or implying that Germany is the sole perpretrator is about as accurate as suggesting or implying that people of Jewish faith were the only people who were systematically murdered during the Second World War. People of many nations - under the control and supervision of the Third Reich - including Austrians and Czechs, were part of the Nazi party, part of the SS, and part of the Einsatzgruppen or the death camps, and as such they were directly involved in the broader sense of the Holocaust. Hoops gza ( talk) 17:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
Please correct the spelling of the cited author's name from "Issacs" to "Isaacs" in the photo caption at the end of the section "Death squads (1941–1943)": <ref name=Issacs>Issacs, Jeremy.[http://www.guardian.co.uk/otherlives/story/0,,1954580,00.html "Susan McConachy'], ''The Guardian'', November 23, 2006.</ref>
63.104.174.146 (
talk)
20:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Done -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 21:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
{{tld}}
to the {{
edit semi-protected}} after accepting/declining requests.
—
Gƒoley
Four—
04:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)I am working on clearing up wikipedia pages that have been tagged as being orphan articles (with insufficient wikilinks to them from other pages), as part of the Wikiproject Orphanage: You can help! project. I have just come across the following writer (born 1954) on The Holocaust: Gardy Ruder (who also has a page on the French Wikipedia site). In the course of trying to find potential links, I have also found the chemist Inge Auerbacher (who also has a page on the German Wikipedia site), and perhaps ought to be referenced on the List of Holocaust survivors page. One of the points about wanting to make as many wikilinks as possible to these two pages is that it makes them easier to find, and be read, by the reader, and therefore makes these people's contributions more widely known. Can I leave it to an editor more expert than I to consider these two biography pages, and to make any links that seem appropriate. Thanks in advance. TheAMmollusc ( talk) 12:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Is the persecution considered part of the Holocaust by historians? If so, it should be added in the lede before "genocide". Actually, I kind of think it would be a good idea to have it there regardless of what historian consensus is because it's educational, it says, "hey, look people, there's this huge fundamental step that must occur before genocide starts". Hoops gza ( talk) 19:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
In general, this article, as well as all articles related to the Holocaust, particularly those on the concentration camps and Einsatzgruppen would be improved by putting across to the reader more clearly and in no uncertain terms how premeditated and calculating these actions were. Hoops gza ( talk) 12:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I think those points come through in the text; however, as with many articles they could use tweaking. With that said, we don't want the lede (or lead as the English say) cluttered or add in surplus to the main points given when they are stated in the paragraphs of the article or articles in question. BTW-I believe there should be a listing of the "Concentration Camp Commandants", much like there is a listing of the "Commandants of extermination camps" (death camps). Thoughts, Hoops gza? Kierzek ( talk) 19:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It is definitely possible to do, but it will make the list considerably longer (probably at least double the major perpetrator list) because there were some 40 concentration camps. That was one of the reasons that I had not done the concentration camp commandants already. It might be best to move the list to a new page. However, I am not sure that the list is really encyclopedic enough (discrete and non point-of-view enough) to warrant having its own page. Another reason I did not add the concentration camp commandants already was because in terms of direct responsibility for deaths I believe that those camp commanders - those which were not at the six death camps - were not responsible for as many as anyone else listed, less than the Einsatzgruppen even. The only exceptions to that death toll idea are Clauberg and Schurmann, but they are very much outliers due to the ways in which they absolutized the perverse "superior Aryan race ideology" (they were holders of medical degrees and performed human medical experiments on children and pregnant woman, etc., just like Mengele). So that's why the CCCs aren't on the list thusfar.
I am planning to expand the list, code it better, to include a clear mugshot photo of each perpetrator, and the circumstances of his death (since virtually all of these Nazis died between 1945-1950, easily see which ones were legally punished). Hoops gza ( talk) 04:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | → | Archive 30 |
I can't remember what the word was but I think "the consuming" is the term used by Romanis when referring to The Holocaust. -- Arima ( talk) 23:27, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Yad Vashem does not claim that 600,000 Serbs died in Jasenovac. The reference you are using mentions "many thousands" but not 600,000 http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206358.pdf . Please change it. Serbs also collaborated with Nazis, if that counts. MarinaJovljak ( talk) 01:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Are these figures accurate / in the vicinity at all / confirmed by anyone / still the official numbers?
(from)
The figures below are from the Nazi records which were turned over to the Red Cross by the Soviet Union after the fall of Communism. They were published in a book written by Danuta Czech.
Male prisoners in Auschwitz III Monowitz (Buna-Werke)
10,223 Golleschau 1,008 Jawischowitz (Jawiszowice) 1,988 Eintrachthutte (Swietochlowice) 1,297 Neu-Dachs (Jaworzno) 3,664 Blechhammer (Blachownia) 3,958 Furstengrube (Wesola) 1,283 Gute Hoffnung (Janinagrube, Libiaz) 853 Guntergrube (Ledziny) 586 Brunn (Brno) 36 Gleiwitz I 1,336 Gleiwitz II 740 Gleiwitz III 609 Gleiwitz IV 444 Laurahutte (Siemianowice) 937 Sosnowitz 863 Bobrek 213 Trzebinia 641 Althammer (Stara Kuznia) 486 Tschechowitz-Dzieditz 561 Charlottengrube (Rydultowy) 833 Hindenburg (Zabrze) 70 Bismarckhutte (Hajduki) 192 Hubertushutte (Lagiewniki) 202
Subtotal 33,023
Total for Auschwitz III : 35,118
Nunamiut (
talk)
12:24, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
The following request appears on that page:
![]() | Many of the articles were selected semi-automatically from a list of indefinitely semi-protected articles. Please confirm that the protection level appears to be still warranted, and consider unprotecting instead, before applying pending changes protection to the article. |
Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.
Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
World War II casualties holds to the notion that the Holocaust was not perpetrated against non-Jews, in stark contrast with this article (at least, this article makes mention of non-Jewish deaths in the header, then goes on to count non-Jewish deaths again later). Even the footnotes for the non-Jewish figures are given at the lowest possible estimates. I don't think non-Jews killed in the holocaust are even counted among the total killed in World War II in that article (which I have a rather strong opinion about). I think these two articles, being in close relation, need to come into harmony. Its very sloppy to see two pages on the same encyclopedia give extremely varied takes on the same subject. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 14:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
I mentioned the notes. Those counted in the notes, where do they figure into the other tolls? Are they listed with civilian dead, or are they show in those tolls at all? Also, you didn't address where I mentioned that there is no room for variables in your death toll (I see no evidence that you read my post above at all). Why are you so defensive about others taking a look at your article? It seems you've had plenty of time with it over the past few years. IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 20:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)--
"Despite the chaos of the Soviet retreat, some effort was made to evacuate Jews, and about a million succeeded in escaping further east."
This sounds very intersting, but at the same time, very unsoviet. It has been tagged as unsourced for about a year. Has anyone ever heard of anything to this effect before. If not I'm probably going to remove it. - Schrandit ( talk) 06:01, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
>>According to general estimates based on overall Soviet evacuation statistics, 800,000 to 900,000 Jews fled from Ukraine during the massive Soviet evacuation to the east.<< From http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/H/O/Holocaust.htm And >>Rebecca Manley does a fine job of telling the tale of how [Soviet authorities] evacuated millions of people as the Germans advanced in 1941 and 1942 .<< http://newbooksinhistory.com/?cat=346 And >>In at least one place [in Soviet occupied Estonia] — Viliandi — the authorities actually encouraged the Jews to flee. Alfrida Pick, a veteran Communist who headed the local municipality, "personally went to all the Jews to persuade them to leave,"and as a result at least half of the Jews left for Russia, including old people who previously had not intended to leave.<< p 282 http://eja.pri.ee/Community/Dov%20Levin.pdf
No question in my mind that a million plus Jews did escape East from Ukraine, Belarus etc -- along with millions of Gentiles. The question for me is whether Jews were significantly favored because they were seen by Soviet officials as being in more danger. I doubt it. But certainly Jews were often more motivated to flee than Gentiles and probably because of their concentration in valued professions were more likely to be favored with tickets on trains etc.
AND I am puzzled by the statement at the end of first paragraph, "Death Squads" section:
>>The Soviet territories occupied by early 1942, including all of Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Moldova and most Russian territory west of the line Leningrad-Moscow-Rostov, contained about three million Jews, including hundreds of thousands who had fled Poland in 1939. The remaining three million were left at the mercy of the Nazis.<< Kits2 ( talk) 04:10, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I suggest >The Soviet territories occupied by German forces in early 1942 had contained in June 1941 about three million Jews. Perhaps a million escaped East in the general semi-organized Soviet retreat, leaving circa two million Jews on the former Soviet territory in Nazi hands. Kits2 ( talk) 04:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The idea that solid numbers exist or can be deduced is a misconception. To illustrate the point a Russian historian estimates that the figure of 25 million for total Soviet death as a consequence of World War II could be off by 5 million. (Braithwaite, Moscow 1942, p 309.
1941 was real chaotic on the Eastern front. And the areas occupied by the Germans in the first
month of the war generally had not been Soviet in 1939 -- the Soviet Union of June 22 1941
included something like 20 million Soviets (10% of the population) who were not Soviet on 15 Sept
1939 but Polish, Rumanian etc (see Table 4 http://www.freewebs.com/oshistory/baltic/resettlement/resettlement.htm )
Wikipedia should acknowledge that reliable figures do NOT exist and use words like "about" and "circa"
And I take the point above re "German". But I think "Axis" does not effectively convey that the forces were overwhelmingly German --- how about "Soviet territories occupied by Germany and her allies" Kits2 ( talk) 05:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Following the sentence: "Countries with notably lower proportions of deaths include Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Italy, and Norway." [now at the end of a paragraph] I suggest:
>>Albania was only country occupied by the Nazis that had a significantly larger Jewish population in 1945 than in 1939. About two hundred native Jews and over a thousand refugees were provided with false documents, hidden when necessary, and generally treated as honored guests in a country whose population was roughly 60% Muslim.<<
And a footnote: >>Shoah Research Center;– Albania http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205725.pdf The Jews of Albania during the Zogist and Second World War Periods: http://www.heimat.de/home/illyria/i.php3?s=e&p=2004_01_09_fisher_jews_in_albania and see also Norman H. Gershman's book Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews in World War II -- for reviews etc http://www.amazon.com/Besa-Muslims-Saved-Jews-World/dp/0815609345 (all consulted 24 June 2010)<<
Objections ?? Improvements ?? Kits2 ( talk) 20:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005469 - many German Jews were expelled before the war, so maybe two numbers should be given - the 90% (1939) and less than 50% (1933). German Wikipedia quotes three sources (numbers, no %) for European countries, Wolfgang Benz (2/1996) Enzyklopädie des Holocaust (4/2002) Burkhard Asmuss (1/2002). Dawidowicz's book is old (1986). Xx236 ( talk) 08:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
The Dawidowicz's number suggest that the fate of German Jews was the same like of the Ostjuden. It's not true, the majority of German Jews emigrated before the Holocaust. Xx236 ( talk) 06:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Could someone with more knowledge of this topic please take a look at German holokaust crimes against Soviet Jews and see if there is any information that can be used and guide the new editor in his approach to those sensible topics? Regards So Why 12:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
There is no mention of the Jewish Holocaust denial theories that are based on contradicting but cited facts. At the very least it should have a link to the Holocaust Denial page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.103.34 ( talk) 19:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a debate which exists which seeks to show that the mass murder of 6,000,000 Jews within their Holocaust was not unique. I don't think you can get any more unique than what the term implies and what the action of history now seeks to unravel. What was composed of a mass destruction, is a uniquely horrendous act of 'genocide', perpetrated by many against a largely Jewish contingent of victims. While it is true that not all victimes were Jews, all Jews were victims. see Elie Wiesel for such truth's. Patrick Dempsey.
Your statement contradicts your argument. You don't want anyone but Jews counted as holocaust victims, and yet you admit not all holocaust victims were Jews... On another note, please stop lining your posts with equals signs. Please sign your posts with --~~~~. Thank you. -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 04:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)...it is true that not all victimes were Jews...
Why does this section exist, it seems to have no context and no real point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.35.57 ( talk) 01:10, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
There is a book on the subject Is the Holocaust Unique?, but that already has an article. I don't think the debate exists much outside that book. I'll just put a link to that at the end. Epa101 ( talk) 15:12, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust, by definition, cannot only apply to the planned killing of all Jews in WWII. The Holocaust included Poles, Russians and Gypsies/Romani among others including "undesirable" Germans. What happened a few years ago in Ruwanda/Burundi was clearly also a Holcaust as was the slaughter of Armenians by the Turks. Certainly the Jews suffred a tremendous amount and were very much target but to ignore others within the term of Holcaust is simply denying an, unfortunate, label to other victims. Perhaps the term should be WWII Holocaust. Also remember that 6 million Poles were killed, of which 3 million happened to be of the Jewish faith.Just some thoughts.
Why is relocation of Jews to Palestine only mentioned once, in passing? The truth is that the Nazis supported the Zionist proposals to relocate German Jews to Palestine, and actually cooperated closely with them in many cases. The Nazis didn't aid in sending Jews to other lands - however, they expressly aided them to go to Palestine, tens of thousands of German Jews, and millions of dollars worth of German equipment and cash. This is well documented in other Wikipedia articles, such as the Haavara Agreement, and the information about the Stern Gang, and Aliyah Bet (only a few examples of many). The refugee ships coming to Palestine were coming from Nazi controlled areas - i.e. the Nazis were assisting them on their voyage to Palestine. The article about the Mefkura ship of 1944 from Romania states that "The German navy (i.e. Nazi navy) provided them with escort and signal flags to facilitate their departure from the harbour and the mined area around it." All this needs to be mentioned in this Holocaust article. The Nazis would have been happy if Europe's Jews had all left to go to Palestine, and only resorted to the Holocaust methods later, during the desperation of war. After all, the British were not permitting the Jews to settle in Palestine, and the ships that were sent out from Nazi Germany (under the auspices of the Nazis), were turned around by Britain and the U.S. and sent back to Nazi Germany. The factor that the Nazis were encouraging and supporting Jews to go specifically to Palestine should be clearly portrayed in this Holocaust article, and is well documented (as is seen in the articles referred to above). Jimhoward72 ( talk) 11:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The Mefukar's departure in August 1944 was facilitated by the Nazi navy in the sense that they did not want the ship blown up by one of their own mines BUT this was in a context of not wanting to irritate the Rumanian government who had agreed to the departure or the Turkish government, the ship was carrying a Turkish flag -- and in the context of a war that the Nazis were clearly loosing and thus the Nazis were increasingly anxious to keep their friends friendly and neutrals neutral. And the Germans had tried to prevent the issuance of exit visas and the ships being refitted. http://books.google.ca/books?id=vpjLBrFvtbsC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=Mefkura&source=bl&ots=jrD47ABOVD&sig=39w-KmoVEQ3ZIpzysLv05HERuhU&hl=en&ei=YH0pTLevCtnsnQfDjdCaAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mefkura&f=false
And the mass killing of the Holocaust began circa July 1941 but the Haavara agreement effectively ended once Britain was at war with Germany in September 1939. Certainly the Nazi's were interested in seeing Jews leave territory they controlled until perhaps 1940, but not just to Palestine. (The Danish Jewish exodus to Sweden of 1943 was arguably facilitated by German Nazis, e.g. the German navy pulled its patrol boats into Danish harbours for 'repairs'. See http://diemperdidi.info/nordicnotes/vol03/articles/lopresto.html )
Re: >>The Nazis would have been happy [in mid 1939] if Europe's Jews had all left to go to Palestine, and only resorted to the Holocaust methods later, during the desperation of war.<< That sentence from the first paragraph of this section -- without the disgusting Nazi apologist/ excusing phrase "desperation of" might be true for Hitler pre September 1939. The Holocaust article, however, is primarily about the Nazi actions of mass murder (directed overwhelmingly against Jews who were not in Nazi controlled territory in mid 1939) and is not concerned with the frame of mind of the mass murderers well before mass murder commenced. (For the record: Jews were certainly murdered by Nazis in 1938, think Kristalnacht and its aftermath.) Kits2 ( talk) 06:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
In my view, plans for forced resettlement of roughly post September 1939 have a very different quality than the pre Sept 1939 Haavarah emigration. In my view, the Haavarah agreement should be discussed in section 3.2 "Legal repression and emigration" and not in 3.7 "Resettlement and deportation to colonies ..." (but it could be referenced in passing in that section.)
And the section in 3.2 dealing with emigration needs to be rewitten -- its real thin, mentions some well known names but gives no sense that most German Jews did get out, and survived the war. The Holocaust Encylopedia > http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005468< does a good job with the history and their nine paragraphs could perhaps be condensed to three with a short paragraph on the Haavarah agreement.
The article should make clear that 1) in general until late 1941 Nazis were happy to see Jews emigrate -- per web site just mentioned: >Until October 1941, German policy officially encouraged Jewish emigration<, that 2) finding a country to immigrate to was difficult in part because Jewish property generally could not be taken from Germany. And 3) Jews emigrating to Palestine could transfer a large part of their property to Palestine because of the Haavarah agreement and thus propertied German Jews could easily procure 'capitalist' immigration visas to British controlled Palestine. (A book review dealing with the Haavarah agreement http://www.anthonyflood.com/murraythirdreichpalestine.htm ) Kits2 ( talk) 11:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
In the article's introduction, it refers to the Holocaust as genocide. "In the original definitions of the term Genocide by lawyer Rafael Lemkin (1943) there is an interesting contradiction: on the one hand, Lemkin defines Genocide as the "extermination" of a people; but on the other hand, he goes into great detail describing the selective mass murder of leadership by the perpetrators, the destruction of religious life, the appropriation by the perpetrators, the destruction of religious life, the appropriation by the perpetrators of economic advantage, and the moral corruption of the victims. Obviously, is people are murdered, they cannot be victimized by moral corruption. Lemkin's definitions were in essence, and with some amendations, taken over by the United Nations in its Genocide Convention of 1948, which has been signed by most countries of the world. What is suggested here is that of the two definitions offered by Lemkin, the second is what is here called Genocide, and the first, the total "extermination," is Holocaust. Obviously, they are closely interralated." - Yehuda Bauer (Leading Authority on Holocaust History) from: A History of the Holocaust (Revised Edition): Bauer, Yehuda, and Nili Keren. "Holocaust and Genocide - Is There a Difference?" A History of the Holocaust. New York: Franklin Watts, 2001. 363-364. Print.
I propose that the article be changed from "the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany." to, "the state-sponsored, systematic murder of approximately six million European Jews during World War II by Nazi Germany." Silencedeafensme ( talk) 16:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)Silencedeafensme
The Nazis and the Black Holocaust When Adolf Hitler came to power in 1932, the racist policies of the Nazis impacted other groups besides the Jews. The Nazis' racial purity laws also targeted gypsies (Roma), homosexuals, the mentally challenged, and blacks. Precisely how many Afro-Germans died in Nazi concentration camps is not known, but estimates put the figure at between 25,000 and 50,000.
http://german.about.com/od/culture/a/blackhistger_2.htm 68.245.137.36 ( talk) 21:18, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}} Please change the following second paragraph under the heading "Extermination Camps" From 'Extermination camps are frequently confused with concentration camps such as Dachau and Belsen, which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labor for a variety of enemies of the Nazi regime (such as Communists and gays).' to 'Extermination camps are frequently confused with concentration camps such as Dachau and Belsen, which were mostly located in Germany and intended as places of incarceration and forced labor for a variety of enemies of the Nazi regime (such as Communists and homosexuals). Due to the fact that 'gays' sounds colloquial and slang like therefore is not really appropriate in this article given the context. Thanks Claretindale ( talk) 13:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The article states that "some" scholars feel that "The Holocaust" should apply to all of those murdered by the nazis, and not just the Jews. It then lists one book, The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust. That the term should apply to those other than Jews is not a mainstream belief, at least in this day and age. Therefore, the article should quote the specific book, and or authors on this, rather than use the term "some", which seems to at least brush against "avoid weasel words." 2tuntony ( talk) 16:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
This quotation is copied all across the Internet, with an identical translation and citation. For that reason, I doubt that whoever added it here saw the actual source, and they probably got it from some gun control-related website instead. If we can't find the original source we should remove it. It's more about gun control than about the subject of this article. Will Beback talk 04:29, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Most of the material (not all) under Resettlement and deportation to colonies and reservations, actually belongs together with Legal repression and emigration. It is completely out of place chronologically where it is now. I'm going to move it, if no one minds. Jimhoward72 ( talk) 21:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
The original meaning of Holocaust is not destruction. It's 'burnt offering' or 'sacrifice by fire'. Any etymology dictionary will say so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.86.121.87 ( talk) 12:40, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this note is necessary, but, given the sensitive nature of the subject, I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Under the section of the news of the death camps, there was a line reading: "In 1943, the news about gassing Jews was broadcast from London to The Netherlands." An entry in Anne Frank's diary, however, dated 9 October 1942, refers to English radio broadcasts about the gassing. So, I have added this in a few paragraphs above (in order to fit with the chronological ordering), given the reference to the Dutch edition (2008) of the diary, quoted the relevant sentence (and my English translation of it), and removed the sentence referring to 1943. I have then re-written the "It" at the start of the next sentence as "News of the gassings", because that appears to have been the intention. If someone would prefer to give a published English translation of the sentence, that is fine, but the original Dutch should remain, so that there is no mistake about the specific wording used by Anne Frank.
Please also note that, on this, I am using Anne Frank's Diary as a historical primary document, and am simply ignoring the debate about its authenticity.
Finally, there is a problem with this section, in that it has the dates (April–June 1944) in the heading, but the discussions start as early as 1940, so perhaps it needs to be re-worked, or the heading changed. Kmasters0 ( talk) 13:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
The intro says "Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents."
As we are mentioning the other groups including less numerous groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses I think mention should be made of the Catholics, an estimated 3000 Polish Catholic Clergy were killed, 2,600 killed in Dachau, 80% of Clergy in Reichsgau Wartheland were killed. Also some Protestant groups were persecuted see -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Religious_persecution —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.36.20.132 ( talk) 13:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Somebody knows what Churban means? If someone does, pleas put it in ethymology. -- Enkiduk ( talk) 07:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Result: There is no consensus to move the article at this time. ~~ GB fan ~~ 06:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust →
Holocaust — Unless I'm missing something, I would strongly have expected the article on the Holocaust to be at "Holocaust" rather than "The Holocaust", per
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name). That is why we use
White House instead of
The White House, or
United States rather than
The United States, or
Rwandan Genocide rather than
The Rwandan Genocide. The disambiguation page is located at
Holocaust (disambiguation), and as the mass murder of the Jews during WW2 is clearly the primary topic (
Holocaust already redirects here), there wouldn't appear to be an issue with disambiguation. There are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of
pages that link to "Holocaust", which suggests that most people expect this page o be located there. Most other encyclopedias use "Holocaust", such as
Encyclopedia Britannica.
City of
Destruction
23:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
The information describes to be sent left was to the gas chambers, to be sent right forced labour. To my knowledge, this is true, but that is facing away from the entrance to aushwitz, the picture is facing to the entrance. This does have relevance to the picture as the SS officer is clearly pointing to the gas chamber hence why the women with the baby is going there. I don't want to change anything without discussing this first and getting the facts right. Shaunthered ( talk) 22:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
As the title of this article suggests, via etymology it clearly has failed to link to corresponding articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.0.76 ( talk) 19:30, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
"The writing is on the wall."
I appreciate that changes to articles like this are often controversial, so I'm asking here first. Basically, the current lead image is used here under the non-free content criteria- meanwhile, we have a a large number of free images which illustrate the subject. Could we please have a free image to lead the article? J Milburn ( talk) 22:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
It is wrong to define the Holocaust as the murder of 6 million EUROPEAN jews. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum took out the word "European" in 2006, following request from top Holocaust scholars. Yad Vashem tells the story of the Shoah in French North Africa - Tunisia, ALgeria and Morocco, in Italian Libya, in Iraq (Farhud) and in Palestine.
See hsitorically correct map of German expansion at: http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/about/related/maps/german_expansion.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edith Perlman ( talk • contribs) 00:21, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
The Holocaust is a Jewish tragedy as stated by Sir Martin Gilbert, who correctly declared that the Holocaust in French North Africa was part of the Shoah in France. It is very unfortunate that there is a wrong consensus to make the Holocaust a European event - the Nazi regime planned to kill Jews - period. The RESULTS of the Final Solution was the tragic destruction of Jewish communities in the continent of Europe.
Holocaust scholars cannot state that the specifity of the Shoah was that the Nazi regime wanted to kill Jews everywhere (correct statement by Bauer), and then limit the genocide of the Jews to the European continent.
A correct meaningful definition of the Holocaust as per statements by Yehuda Bauer, Sir Martin Gilbert, Himmler, Hitler, the USHMM and others:
Definitions that focus only on antisemitism in the ideology of the perpetrators and only on Jews as victims, limit the scope of Holocaust education. Elie Wiesel appropriately declared that all the Jews were victims, but not all the victims were Jewish. Y. Bauer, an Israeli scholar and a most respected authority on the subjects of the Holocaust, declared that Nazism’s goal to reorganize humanity according to race all over the globe did not endanger the Jews only. The Nazis planned to implement a global solution to the Jewish question, and to create a racist world dominated by the “Aryan” race. He explained that the unprecedentedness of the Holocaust is “based on unprecedentedness of National Socialism/Nazism as a threat to all humans” – thus, Shaked stated: The Nazis decided who did not have the right to live. I combined different definitions (mainly Bauer; Yad Vashem, and the USHMM), and came up my own definition, which I think reflect the impact of Nazism and the historical realities of the Holocaust era:
The Holocaust refers to the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored massacre by the Nazi regime and its collaborators, of more than 11 million undesirable ‘others’/Christians/Gentiles and Jews, during the Holocaust era, 1933-45. Because of WHO they are: “Although Jews were the primary victims, millions of others/Gentiles/Christians labeled “undesirable,” “enemies of the state,” or “subhuman” were also murdered. “Nazis targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority:" Roma (Gypsies), the handicapped - the physically and mentally challenged - at least 200,000 mentally or physically disabled people were murdered in the Euthanasia Program-, the “Black” or Afro-German, African-American and Jewish American soldiers, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles - the Germans targeted the Christian Polish intelligentsia for killing, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet citizens for forced labor in Germany or in occupied Poland; Russians - more than three million Soviet prisoners of war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or maltreatment, and others).
Because of WHAT they did: Other groups were persecuted on political and behavioral grounds - because of WHAT they did: Among them Communists, Socialists and trade unionists, Jehovah's Witnesses - religious dissidents- and homosexuals (from the earliest years of the Nazi regime, homosexuals and others deemed to be behaving in a socially unacceptable way were persecuted). Many of these individuals died as a result of incarceration and maltreatment.” Shoah. “At the center of the Holocaust stood the Shoah. Shoah is a Hebrew term, “meaning great disaster, and also applied to such natural catastrophes as floods and earthquakes.” “The word Shoah was chosen in Israel and institutionalized by the Knesset on April 12, 1951, when it established Yom Ha-Shoah Ve Mered Ha-Getaot, the national day of remembrance.”
The Hebrew term Sho’ah is used to describe the murder of approximately six million Jews including 1,500,000 children, the almost complete destruction of the European Jewish communities, and the attempt to annihilate the Jewish people, from France in the west to the Soviet Union in the east and from Latvia in the north to French North Africa and Italian Libya in the south, in Iraq (Farhud), and in the rest of the world.
I once read that part of the motivation behind the Holocaust was lack of food in Nazi Germany. It's rational (however immoral) to assume that, faced with this problem, Nazi leadership would chose to let the least valuable segment of their population die in a manner which would not lead to riots and unrest. A line from the article supports this: "...their clothes and other possessions were seized by the Nazis to help fund the war." Why would someone bother seizing prisoner's clothes unless you were in a very dire economic situation?
I don't know if this is true or widely supported. But, I do know this article has very little information about the point of view of the Nazis and their reasons for performing the Holocaust. A government doesn't set up a incredibly complicated logistics system just because they are immoral and want to slaughter people. Also, the mass murder of Holocaust victims did not start until late in the war, even though the concentration camps were founded earlier. Something had to have changed to cause the Nazi leadership to move from working Jews to death to purposefully killing them. What was it? -- Acewolf359 ( talk) 17:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
You made a good point about starvation. Many Jews and non-Jewish political prisoners, died in Poland during the years of 1944-1945 of starvation and nutrition related diseases. This happened because the Allies bombed supply lines. They did this know the casualties. I would like a discussion as to why this should be put in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.89.212.141 ( talk) 04:07, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Some users are sticking to isert Japanese war crimes and delete Japanese Jew related links. [1] [2] [3] Japanese policy was anti holocost, Japanese war crimes were no relavence to holocost. Is there anti-Japanese sentiment?-- Bukubku ( talk) 14:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I don't find United States war crimes, British war crimes... in this page. Why insert Japanese war crimes? Why delete Japanese good deed for Jew. 442nd Infantry Regiment (United States) is relevant to Holocaust, but I dont find in this page. This page disguize Japanese good deed and disparag Japan.-- Bukubku ( talk) 15:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The "Related Links" section is not simply a list of war crimes committed by various countries. It is a list of articles/events that bear some resemblance to characteristics of the Holocaust described in this article. This includes the Japanese war crimes article. I am removing the newly added links to Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, British war crimes, Italian war crimes, Jew war crimes, and United States war crimes, which are clearly out of context, and don't describe in general Holocaust similar events, as described in the present article. Jimhoward72 ( talk) 08:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I am not sure what is going on here. Bukubku's edit warring seems to be making a point about genocides which doesn't have much to do with an article on the Holocaust. I am not sure of the link to Japanese war crimes in this article are very important. But it is clear to me that the section on Japanese Policy of..... is out of place in an article on the Holocaust. The points made are important, but belong (and are present) in other articles. What is more these points are well discussed in many English books (i.e. David Kanzler) and thus there is not need for references which cannot be read by those who do not read Japanese. I do hope that this point is obvious to those who know anything about the Holocaust and will not turn into another edit war. Joel Mc ( talk) 21:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
-Primo Levi’s Memoir: “Thousands of individuals, differing from age, condition, origin, language, culture and customs are enclosed within barbed wire: there they live a regular, controlled life which was identical for all and inadequate to all needs, and which is much more rigorous than any experimenter could have set up to established what is essential and what adventitious to the conduct of the human animal in the struggle for life.”
-Recollection from concentration camp prisoner: “the Kapo (commander) of our unit killed a friend of mine because he was not standing up straight.” Roll calls were held when inmates returned from work, at midnight, and even for an entire day. Roll call was when workers would be ordered into formation.
-Kapo’s were sometimes 18 years old. One was reported to have killed 400 Jew’s for their food rations.
-Camp work included working in underground stone quarries for a year without seeing daylight.
-A Usual work day was seventeen hours of work and two to five hours of sleep.
-One inmate had frostbitten feet. The German guards responded to his problem by wrapping paper around his feet and sending him back to work in the snow.
- The diet of inmates consisted of bead chunks made of flour and sawdust, watery soup that was spoiled and spoiled sausage.
-Prison Guards were rewarded for ordering inmates to do impossible tasks (such as running to washrooms even when the inmate did not know where it was) and then beating them to death for not being able to comply. Sadistic fun was normal.
-Some Inmates were worked so far to exhaustion that the inmate would intentionally provoke the German Overseer to shoot him dead. Jewish infants would sometimes be tossed up in the air and shot by German soldiers.
-Practice of religion was punishable by death
- Obedience was more dangerous than disobedience. Anything could be stolen. If people obeyed they were frostbitten, starved literally to death, and deprived of sleep enough to die of exhaustion. Therefore they were called mussulmans (zombies).
- Most Holocaust survivors were non-Jews
“In Odessa, on October 23, 1941, 19,000 people were taken to a square, doused with gasoline, and set afire.” Daily Life During the Holocaust
Jews have been hated since the middle-ages.
Birkanau or Auschwitz II Concentration camp killed almost 12,000 people a day by the use of gas chambers disguised as showers for Jewish inmates.
Experiments on dead and alive death camp inmates were conducted by the Nazi’s at Bikanau, the German experimenters had little to no medical training. Some inmates would volunteer to be experimented in exchange for food to eat. Experiments included being injected with typhus, malaria, various other diseases and gasoline just to see the effects of the injection.
-People had to wait in line for hours to get one food ration which sometimes never came. Surviving on this diet was beyond possible.
-Water used for drinking and washing was polluted. People even got to the point where they traded their clothes for food. 96.238.183.115 ( talk) 20:09, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
There was a factual mistake in the article. Look the table in the section titled " Extermination Camps". The reference '139' "Yad Vashem" does NOT say that 600,000 died in Jasenovac. Take a look: http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/microsoft%20word%20-%206358.pdf . The USHMM puts the figure of victims in Jasenovac (including Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Jews and Roma) to 100,000. Yahalom Kashny ( talk) 21:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
{{ edit semi-protected}} Please correct typo: considerd -> considered
Reineke80 ( talk) 20:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Continuing what I wrote above, this section is grossly out of place here in the section "Development and execution". In fact there is no mention of the policy of the other Axis power, Italy in this article. Japanese policy is presented at: Japanese Response I propose to delete the section within the next couple of days. Joel Mc ( talk) 11:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
Thousands and thousands of non-Jews were killed by the Nazi's, why does the opening paragraph state that the Holocaust only refers to the Jewish dead, there were more than just Jews at the camps, everbody knows that and changes should be made, this is the 21st century, we should have gotten this right by now.
The first paragraph should be a summary of the whole doc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.14.173.77 ( talk) 13:33, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
{{edit semi-protected}}
I noticed in the section titled "Pogroms (1939–1942)" it says: "[...]on June 30, 1941, in which as many 14,000 Jews were killed by Romanian residents and police [...]" It should say "as many AS". 186.19.195.227 ( talk) 07:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but the article dwells too much on some aspects and does grand leaps and bounds of over sections. It also reiterates itself time and time again. It needs a good copyeditor to trim it and move wads of material to sub articles, where the information can be expanded and looked at more closely without filling up the main article. In simplicity itself, this article should be the main introduction to the whole topic.
Besides there isn't even a mention of Action 14f13, come on!! If this is mean to to be encyclopdic quality drop the pop culture style and present the facts in a more tidy way, cross referenced with ever other page on the Holocaust. This page is the one stop shop gateway to the whole topic, not just another article among many similar articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.5.223 ( talk) 00:29, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm a little surprised to see no mention of Irving or Zundel. Any reason? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.40.140 ( talk) 12:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph uses the following test:
"a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination"
The Holocaust article should be reserved only for Jewish victims. Mention of homosexuals, mentally challenged, Romani and other people should, perhaps, be moved to a different article, or perhaps, included in individual articles like Genocide of Romani People etc... Yahalom Kashny ( talk) 01:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
"The following figures from Lucy Dawidowicz show the annihilation of the Jewish population of Europe by (pre-war) country"
Numbers please. Did six million Jews die in the holocaust? Is that what the author is saying?
Ok sorry just noticed that it states 6 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.129.233 ( talk) 19:23, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Under "Legal repression and emigration," the first paragraph after the quoted material, second line, "through" should be "though," and "owning" should be "owing." Proofraeder ( talk) 08:11, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
A while back I gave numerous sources supporting the view that the Holocaust was driven by German beliefs that Jews were too heavily involved at an elite level in German society. Since then, nothing has been done. In fact the section is worse now because it invokes eugenics, whereas in reality the Nazis targetted Jews because they thought they were too smart, not too stupid.
I would like to add another cause: the perception shared by Hitler and the political right in general that Jews were behind communist movements and that communism was an ideology to promote the interests of Jews. This is elaborated upon in the Jewish Bolshevism article. Lenin's right hand man, Leon Trotsky was a Jew, Bela Khun, Hungarian communist leader was a Jew, the leader of the Bavaria Soviet Republic was a Jew, as were the two leaders of the Spartacist Berlin uprising of 1919. Of course, this could be regarded as a coincidence but it nevertheless is critical to understanding the National Socialist worldview.
It's stunning that none of these basic facts are in the article.
71.65.71.145 ( talk) 20:18, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Can somebody retouch this map? It supposedly shows Europe at the height of Nazi domination in (late?) 1942 (when the Holocaust had really kicked into gear) but the borders are very crudely drawn, and is filled with loads of mistakes. To name just one thing, Italy never annexed that large a part of France. Compare with this correct one. A smaller version that is being used for showing the Führer Headquarters has the same problem, it just shows less of it.-- Morgan Hauser ( talk) 14:49, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Large numbers of Serb civilians died in WWII, but NOT as result of the Holocaust but rather just Ustasha policy of the completely insane "chaotic terror" (USHMM). Serbia was a Nazi puppet state complete with the Serbisches SS-Freiwilligen Korps, the notorious self-proclaimed Serbian Gestapo and such (not to mention the Chetnik turncoat collaborators). The Ustasha were the Croat-fascists of the Croat Nazi puppet state, they murdered a lot of Serbs and non-Serbs alike, and the Serb-fascist collaborators slaughtered a lot of people too, but nothing of this was ordered by the Germans but by their own "authorities" - they just hated each other's guts (the Chetniks also slaughtered the Muslims), plus political killings. There were (of course) also deaths due to the anti-partisan operations (against the Yugoslav Partisan movement, at first also against the Chetniks before they changed the sides), which was also not part of the Holocaust - but of WWII (a rather brutal war, you know).
The Serbs were simply not targeted in the Holocaust, they were never in German plans of extermination and for example the Serb ethnic minority in Germany were treated as 100% "Aryan" Germans by the Nazis (and in 1945 many were murdered by the invading Soviets as such). Plus the fact the Serbs even had their own "independent" state, and as I said, there was even the multi-thousand strong Serbian (ethnic Serbs of Serbia) volunteer Waffen-SS formation. Otherwise, you may add just any civilian/POW who died in all the territories under German occupation regardless of circumstances as a "victim of the Holocaust", which I guess would be pretty stupid, no?
USHMM article on WWII in Yugoslavia explains the situation further, even as not mentioning the 1945 Yugoslav massacres of Germans, Austrians, Italians and other minorities, but ending with this very true sentence: "In the vicious propaganda supporting the violence in Yugoslavia in the 1990s were numerous references to events in the former Yugoslavia during the Holocaust era." -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 23:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I'd welcome a discussion that would lead to cosnensus on a Wikipedia policy on that matter. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 01:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
What a great discussion. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 14:43, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I propose to entirely eliminate the false idea of "the Serbs" being the victims of the Holocaust from the text of this article. Not only they were not targeted by the Nazi extermination policies, but they were considered to be fully "Aryan" citizens of the Reich, they had "their own" (puppet) country with autonomous (fascist) administration and a lot of armed collaborationist formations (not unlike the Vichy French state - or the Croat NDH for that matter), they even had their own (Serb by ethnicity and name) Waffen-SS legion (also not unlike the French - and the Croats, except no one is saying the French and the Croats were victims of the Holocaust somehow).
The local Serbs were victims of the Ustasha (Croat fascist) genocide in Croatia and Bosnia, which was as unrelated to the Holocaust and Nazism in general as for example the genocide of the local Poles by the Ukrainian nationalists in 1943. A good summary of what happened is the following: "So far as the Great Croat chauvinists are concerned, one of their defining moments came in May 1941, when the Ustasha leader Ante Pavelic, newly installed at the head of the Nazi-puppet ‘Independent State of Croatia’, signed a treaty that ceded without struggle a large part of the Croatian coast to Fascist Italy. He then proceeded to try to divert the popular anger of the outraged Croatian public away from the Italians and against the apparently defenceless Serb civilian population of the Croatian puppet state – only to find that his anti-Serb genocidal campaign generated a popular resistance, among Serbs and others, that his sorry armed forces were incapable of suppressing, leading him to ever-greater acts of grovelling dependency on his German and Italian masters. Pavelic and his fellow leading Ustasha murderers fled the country in 1945, leaving the remnants of the puppet Croatian army and the civilians who had remained loyal to it to bear the brunt of Partisan retaliation." [5] It was completely unrelated to any policies by Berlin. -- 94.246.150.68 ( talk) 15:37, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Weren't there blacks, gays and others murdered in the holocaust? The first paragraph is very misleading, as it makes out that only jews were killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sk8r2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Diden`t the Jews create Hitler, and provoke their own Holocaust? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.60.41 ( talk) 22:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
This article is just above 241,000 bytes. It is really too long, and needs to be split. I notice that this has been brought up on the talk page before (checking the archives). Way back in January 2010, the article went to 190,589. That was already way too long. ---- Steve Quinn ( talk) 20:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Its been said here but apparently it needs to be said again, the Holocaust was not just of the Jews. The article even mentions a good word to use if you just want to talk about Jewish victims, the Shoah. The holocaust involved the Roma as well as the Jews, the Hitler regime explicitly stated their desire to eliminate the Roma people, they also explicitly stated plans to purge people with birth defects or handicaps and homosexuals, I don't see how it can possibly be said these victims are secondary to Jews are their lives worth less and their deaths less significant?. Plans were also made to kill a third of Russians, Poles and other Slavs, which includes Serbians, make a third slaves and forcibly convert the most Aryan looking ones to be Germans. That is a genocide, according to the Wikipedia article on WW2 16 percent of Poles were killed about 14 percent of Soviets were killed with half of those being civilian casualties. In regards to the comments on Serbia. In a disgusting piece of revisionist history it seems this article is suggesting Serbs are Nazi allies. It was Yugoslavia, but mainly the Serbians, who decided to stand up to the Nazis on their march east when Romania Bulgaria and Hungary allied with Germany In the Jasenovic concentration camp Nazi Croatians killed 750,000 people they killed much of the Roma and Jewish population of the time, but the majority of the victims of that camp were Serbs. Serbs also made up about 80 percent of the Partisans fighters. Nazis are not all German Croatian Nazis are no less Nazis and their is no reason to separate their actions from the rest of the Holocaust.
I am aware that I am not citing all my sources and I never edit Wikipedia articles but this one is a travesty as someone of Roma descent. To this day the media and civil society in general tends to be quick to respond with condemnation to Anti Semetic comments largely because people are aware of the horror of what happened in the Holocaust. Negative comments and actions towards Roma are usually tolerated. Perhaps that would be different if the Roma were given equal mention in the history of the Holocaust —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.209.239 ( talk) 09:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
The site holocaustresearchproject.org was spam blaklisted in 2006. The request on Meta is available here. I am considering asking for delisting, but before that I want to start a discussion on the usefulness of the site.
The original request was made by User:JzG after some mild spamming with the following motivation "A ludicrously inaccurate site of no conceivable encyclopaedic value," with a link to a blog posting at holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.
Studying the blog I found out the following:
All this is far too complicated to make out who are the good guys and who the bad guys. The site itself however seems useful. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 11:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that deathcamps.org is also blacklisted – and checked the history. The blacklisting in 2007 resulted from and intellectual property dispute between deathcamps.org and death-camps.org (now defunct). See Meta:Talk:Spam blacklist#Intellectual property dispute / deathcamps.org. Most of the original argumentation is now moot, as the mirror site death-camps.org no longer exists. The remaining argument against deathcamps.org seems to be, that the Holocaust Controversies blog claims that some of the primary sources presented at the site are not genuine.
Here is what what I have found of the previous discussion.
-- Petri Krohn ( talk) 21:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
The article states as fact that Nazi Germany conducted a "programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination", and that "two-thirds of the population of nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust were killed". Both statements are historically disputed (and I don't mean by Holocaust deniers). It is not accepted fact that the Holocaust was a systematic programme - officially it wasn't, and evidence that it was officially approved campaign is inconclusive. That uncertainty should be noted. The numbers who died included many (probably the majority) who died rather than were deliberately killed. The distinction is not purely semantic. So it should be noted that there were 6 million (if we accept that number, which is another debate) who died of disease and starvation etc, or were deliberately massacred in concentration camps and elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnC ( talk • contribs) 08:21, 19 February 2011
This is one way in which this article can be improved: In general, this article needs to be dissociated from the idea that the nation of Germany or "Germans" were solely responsible for the Holocaust. This is not simply a matter of terminology, it is a misrepresentation in the meaning of the terms. Suggesting or implying that Germany is the sole perpretrator is about as accurate as suggesting or implying that people of Jewish faith were the only people who were systematically murdered during the Second World War. People of many nations - under the control and supervision of the Third Reich - including Austrians and Czechs, were part of the Nazi party, part of the SS, and part of the Einsatzgruppen or the death camps, and as such they were directly involved in the broader sense of the Holocaust. Hoops gza ( talk) 17:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
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Please correct the spelling of the cited author's name from "Issacs" to "Isaacs" in the photo caption at the end of the section "Death squads (1941–1943)": <ref name=Issacs>Issacs, Jeremy.[http://www.guardian.co.uk/otherlives/story/0,,1954580,00.html "Susan McConachy'], ''The Guardian'', November 23, 2006.</ref>
63.104.174.146 (
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20:50, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Done -- Steven J. Anderson ( talk) 21:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
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04:56, 12 March 2011 (UTC)I am working on clearing up wikipedia pages that have been tagged as being orphan articles (with insufficient wikilinks to them from other pages), as part of the Wikiproject Orphanage: You can help! project. I have just come across the following writer (born 1954) on The Holocaust: Gardy Ruder (who also has a page on the French Wikipedia site). In the course of trying to find potential links, I have also found the chemist Inge Auerbacher (who also has a page on the German Wikipedia site), and perhaps ought to be referenced on the List of Holocaust survivors page. One of the points about wanting to make as many wikilinks as possible to these two pages is that it makes them easier to find, and be read, by the reader, and therefore makes these people's contributions more widely known. Can I leave it to an editor more expert than I to consider these two biography pages, and to make any links that seem appropriate. Thanks in advance. TheAMmollusc ( talk) 12:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Is the persecution considered part of the Holocaust by historians? If so, it should be added in the lede before "genocide". Actually, I kind of think it would be a good idea to have it there regardless of what historian consensus is because it's educational, it says, "hey, look people, there's this huge fundamental step that must occur before genocide starts". Hoops gza ( talk) 19:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
In general, this article, as well as all articles related to the Holocaust, particularly those on the concentration camps and Einsatzgruppen would be improved by putting across to the reader more clearly and in no uncertain terms how premeditated and calculating these actions were. Hoops gza ( talk) 12:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I think those points come through in the text; however, as with many articles they could use tweaking. With that said, we don't want the lede (or lead as the English say) cluttered or add in surplus to the main points given when they are stated in the paragraphs of the article or articles in question. BTW-I believe there should be a listing of the "Concentration Camp Commandants", much like there is a listing of the "Commandants of extermination camps" (death camps). Thoughts, Hoops gza? Kierzek ( talk) 19:07, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
It is definitely possible to do, but it will make the list considerably longer (probably at least double the major perpetrator list) because there were some 40 concentration camps. That was one of the reasons that I had not done the concentration camp commandants already. It might be best to move the list to a new page. However, I am not sure that the list is really encyclopedic enough (discrete and non point-of-view enough) to warrant having its own page. Another reason I did not add the concentration camp commandants already was because in terms of direct responsibility for deaths I believe that those camp commanders - those which were not at the six death camps - were not responsible for as many as anyone else listed, less than the Einsatzgruppen even. The only exceptions to that death toll idea are Clauberg and Schurmann, but they are very much outliers due to the ways in which they absolutized the perverse "superior Aryan race ideology" (they were holders of medical degrees and performed human medical experiments on children and pregnant woman, etc., just like Mengele). So that's why the CCCs aren't on the list thusfar.
I am planning to expand the list, code it better, to include a clear mugshot photo of each perpetrator, and the circumstances of his death (since virtually all of these Nazis died between 1945-1950, easily see which ones were legally punished). Hoops gza ( talk) 04:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)