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How to fake a 10,000 year old ukrain artifacts in a nation with 90 percent open far right population.
step one, buy a 10,000 year old mamoth tusk from the internet which is legal and actully cheap depending on size and colour. $200 to $8,000
step two, Buy or use a stone age artifact and start to carve your ideal pattern, if you want to steal the whole of asias history just pop down a crude swastika.
step three, Tell the world you have a 10,000 year old swastika because the tusk of the material carbon dates to 10,000 years and the stone age tools which scratched the design matches up with the tools in the ukrain museum and found in the area by novest hunters.
Step Five, publish the results on every far right website and claim its been authenticated & wait for the news to be spotted and popped up on wiki so that the history can fall back into the hands of the far right for another round of the dark age.
is Mukti Jain Campion an established archaeologist/historian? Ukrain cannot be used a ref of honest historian activity, not when the nation has some of the worst corruption while being drenched in nazi ideology. 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 18:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
I'm speaking from a mystical Native American point of view. Clockwise sun wheels are facing to the LEFT, not to the RIGHT. Imagine an equilateral cross with one ribbon tied to each end. If the cross was turned counterclockwise the ribbons will orient to the right, and left when turned clockwise. In ancient European mythic and Native American tradition clockwise is for productivity, light, goodness. Counterclockwise is for negative things like curses and destruction. I understand that some very positive religions orient it the other way. I'm just pointing out the flaw of the statement that the article makes on what is a clockwise versus counterclockwise sun wheel. 173.93.254.111 ( talk) 12:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Strong-Oak
I do not wish to see any distortions of this page to appease far right cults in Ukraine, Norway, Netherlands, Italy, France, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Hungary, Austria, Germany..ect
I dont like the idea or method of using the website "sacred text" as a solid Ref, I find it to be of low calibre and less established to be given top page status on this wiki page refs and cits.
I Would also like to point out that The west as well as the chinese have been caught many times trying to pass forgeries off as Orginal artifacts, historians who have been caught in europe and in china explian how a object made today can be made into a 18,000 year old item just by treating it with radiation exposure which tricks the carbondating method, other methods are used to even trick museums with ease.
TOP established historians from asia and europe can give refs, But ukrains and other high far right nations should be given with due caution 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 17:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
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1) the source provided is not an academic source, it is a BBC culture piece 2) inspection of the picture of the artifact reveals no swastika, only some spiral motifs - here we get into the "million monkeys at a million type writers for a million years, and eventually you get Shakespeare" situation 3) The shape, even if is similar to more recent swastikas, did not necessarily have the same intended meaning as more recent swastikas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.173.20.99 ( talk) 01:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Kolovrat has no relation to the Slavs. It is used only Russian neo-Nazis. Please familiarize yourself with the opinion of the russian historian Roman Bagdasarov: http://www.webcitation.org/619kJgHL0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vladchekunov ( talk • contribs) 20:09, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Bkobres, regarding this edit by you, would you please take the trouble to actually read WP:EL? External links belong in an external links section; that's why it is called an external links section. It simply does not matter how long the links you restored have been there. They are inappropriate under a widely accepted guideline. Please feel free to restore those links in an external links section, but please do not feel free to restore them in the middle of the article's text. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 08:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
When did the Nazis ever use the swastika? The article needs serious cleanup. 112.198.83.66 ( talk) 04:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
As it was mentioned in quote 62, the kolovrat would be used by pro-russian seperatists, but that's not what is shown in the atricle quoted. There are pictures showing the kolovrat sticked to the uniforms of the Asow-regiment, which lately led an torch march in Mariupol after losing the elections. The Asow-regiment is strongly connected to the pro-western Ukraine "government" under Petro Poroschenko. SO it's just an attempt to make the russians look evil, instead of showing the reality, that the ukrainian government supports far-right neo-faschists like the Asow-regiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:1340:1040:5477:D1A0:75E4:4B9D ( talk) 11:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
See the comment here: http://redpill.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=12993 for this image [3]:
I have looked and looked and can't find the Celt swastika. (Celt swastika looks like the Isle of Man and Triskel symbol.) AND I could not find many other from this image after a while searching. I feel like this image is a lie; it was once on the slide of the front page here: http://www.proswastika.org/ It would be great if there was some photographs of where these symbols were found because I cannot find much (except the Aztec one, which I found fan art on).
—User 0 0 0 name 03:58, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
According to the definition of satire (OED "Characterized by a sarcastically critical or mocking attitude to a person, situation, etc., esp. one viewed as foolish or immoral; expressing criticism in a sarcastic or mocking way."), all works intending to denigrate or otherwise show disapproval of a subject by comparing them to the Nazis, by implementation of a swastika, are satirical use of the swastika. I believe this tag to be inappropriate, but wished to note this on the talk page instead of starting an edit war. Gsnerd ( talk) 19:56, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
What was the Nazi (NASDP?) word for the symbol? "Hakenkreuz" or Swasitka, or both? Flightsoffancy ( talk) 19:29, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
probable PD-old [4]. Halfcookie ( talk) 21:04, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
In the early 20th century section, the sentence:
"The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi groups, and is used regularly by activist groups."
I'm not sure what activist groups are referred to here in a clause that comes directly after one about Neo-Nazis. I'll delete the second part of the sentence unless anyone can advise. Born to Donne ( talk) 08:23, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by this line: "The pagan Anglo-Saxon ship burial at Sutton Hoo, England, contained numerous items bearing the swastika, now housed in the collection of the Cambridge Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology." First, what items from Sutton Hoo contained swastikas? Second, weren't the objects all deposited in the British Museum? The snipped view on Google Books of the cited source (Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, page 83) shows that "Cambridge Museum" and "swastikas" both appear on page 83, but it doesn't appear that "Sutton Hoo" does. Could someone who knows more, or has the source handy, clear this up? Thanks! Usernameunique ( talk) 09:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Under this inset image
/info/en/?search=File:Brooklyn_Museum_74.218.25_Weight.jpg
it reads: "Ashanti weight"
"Ashanti" needs bluelinking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.39.37 ( talk) 02:46, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
I want to spotlight the unfair editing of this article by an Indian user, "Tiger7253". He persistently deletes and changes content, especially to convey the idea that the swastika is an originally and exclusively " Indian" symbolism, while it is found across all Indo-European-influenced cultures spanning Eurasia and the article is full of sources supporting this evidence.-- 95.232.135.117 ( talk) 14:03, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
More from p. 82 of the same book: "As for India, everything, so far, tends to show that the swastika was introduced into that country from Greece, the Caucasus, or Asia Minor, by ways which we do not yet know." Here a diagram showing the chronology of diffusion of the swastika. India is the eighth step!-- 82.54.75.3 ( talk) 20:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I usually restrict my edits to correcting bad Sanskrit, but in this case, I feel that I must speak out on the following points: 1) Attacks ad hominem will destroy Wikipedia. Courtesy is essential. Whatever one suspects, other contributors must be accorded the dignity of being treated as scholars unless they have been proven not to be. Proven, not suspected. A person's origin may well predispose them to a particular view. There is nothing wrong with that. Should we have only contributors of one particular background? I, like many others, refuse to have an identified background. (My pen name means "nobody" in Sanskrit.) 2. Indo-European, or Aryan, is a language group. Max Muller famously said that it makes as much sense to refer to the "Aryan race" as to talk of a "brachycepalic dictionary". The casual observation at the language family does not correspond systematically to any genetically defined grouping is confirmed by molecular biology. 3. Languages can spread by movement of peoples or by cultural influence. In particular, a small number of conquerors may bring their language to a new population, at times with very little change in material culture. If the new rulers are warriors, rather than, say, potters, decorative arts will be little affected. Conversely, cultural patterns can be transmitted independently of people or language. 5) The leading paragraph of this article, which asserts that the swastika originates in India, is clearly unsupportable, given the antiquity of the use of the symbol around the world - as far as Central America - as documented in the article itself. It may well be the case, but cannot be proven. 4. Nakashchit ( talk) 01:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I left out 4) somehow: 4) The suggestion that there is a continuous pagan tradition in Europe, rather than a recent revivalist movement would need a lot of support, as it is contrary to received history. In paganism is indeed a revivalist movement, which we must assume in the absence of contrary evidence, it is far too insignificant to merit a mention in the first paragraph. Nakashchit ( talk) 01:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Good grief, can't we just leave out of the lead section the five words "originating from the Indian subcontinent"? If the exact origin is disputed, then the opposing current and historical views can be (and are) described in sections "Theories of Origin" and "Prehistory", where there is space to provide balance.
I agree with Nakashchit ( talk · contribs) above that languages, artistic symbols, and religions can spread separately. And that they may also spread through different strata of society, leaving others untouched. For example, a ruling class (or religious elite) may introduce a collection of language, religion, and artistic/decorative style and spread it to neighbouring areas through conquest, trade, or diplomatic relations without it ever filtering down to the common people in the fields. On the other hand, human history is also full of mass migrations.
Additionally, a geometric symbol can also arise independently in different places: just because it is invented in one place later than another, doesn't mean there was a direct chain of transmission. (Some of the examples of square spirals and knotwork included in the article – let alone the rounded versions – strike me as having only tenuous links to swastikas sensu stricto, but that's a topic for separate discussion.)
Given the above uncertainty, conflict, and possibility of multiple origins (apart from swastikas appearing in both places, is there any other good evidence of cultural transmission between Eurasia and the Americas in the same time frame?), surely pinpointing a single geographical origin in the lede is at best undue weight and at worst deceptive.
Pinging @ Tiger7253:, @ 95.232.135.117:, @ 82.54.75.3:, @ 87.4.91.167:, @ RegentsPark:, @ Kautilya3: – sorry if that is excessive notification.
To be clear: as a previously uninvolved editor who just stumbled on this discussion (I was looking for talk about merge with sauwastika), I propose to remove mention of swastika's origin from the introduction, and to cover the evidence, speculation, and differing interpretations only in relevant sections of the body.
Pelagic ( talk) 02:22, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
This article is over-laden with photos, to the point that it's almost unreadable, especially on any mobile device. It would take quite a bit of serious editing to pare it down, however. - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 20:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I have made a bold edit, and have done away with the bulk of the symbols depicted under the 'Appearance' section. The pictures of the symbols appear to have been added without any consensus and/or sources or references. For example, one such symbol - the Lauburu - is described as a 'Basque swastika' without any references alluding to it. It appears to be original research. Just because it is a four-legged symbol doesn't make it a swastika, which is a misconception many people seem to have. I have done away with the dubious symbols and have retained the obvious ones, like the Nazi hakenkreuz. Tiger7253 ( talk) 11:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
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I have restored Lauburu image, as it indeed is referred to as the Basque swastika in reliable sources. Please see 1, 2, etc. I welcome any concerns citing sources to back those concerns, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Same concept, variant spelling. Editor2020 ( talk) 20:42, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
I feel like this article has way too many images. Perhaps an image gallery might be better than stuffing the article. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:06, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Tiger7253: Please do not remove sources and sourced content as you did here and here, etc. Further, please note that NPOV is a binding community agreed content policy, and this article is no place to push a POV-y Hindu or Jain iconography. The collage was not available in the past, and the collage does include the previous lead image as one of the four representations. It does not matter if the article has or has not used a particular icon for a while. Therefore I have reverted your edit.
You also re-added unsourced content, one non-RS, and a fringe part with 11,000 year claim. Such edits do not meet wikipedia's verifiability and RS guidelines.
Please explain your concerns in accordance with wikipedia content guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 01:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Kautilya3 ( talk · contribs): I believe that your revision as of 29 April 2017 is the fairest and most balanced version. Major edits have been made to this article since your revision, without any prior consultation with any of us who have had a stake in editing this article over the last few months. My attempt to revert these edits so that we can start from scratch with our input has been rebuked as 'disruptive', which is thoroughly unfair, given that I have agreed with a number of constructive edits on this article (including yours). I am hoping that we can roll back the edits to your revision and work our way up if that is what @ Ms Sarah Welch: would prefer. I am not in favour of a lead paragraph that diminishes the importance of the Swastika in contemporary Indic religions, putting them on a pedestal with traditions that otherwise died out centuries ago. The latter simply aren't as notable as the former to be given such importance in the lead.
It is particularly appalling to see that the Indian hypothesis of the symbol's origin (courtesy of the IIT) has been removed, making that section highly Eurocentric and dare I say, biased. Tiger7253 ( talk) 13:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
It seems very odd to me that the use of the swastika as the symbol of Nazism which lingers with great potency throughout the western world, is only hesitantly mentioned. As a balanced article, this should be in the lede paragraph, although certainly as part of a balanced discussion. Bear in mind that lots of people will be coming here to find out about the symbol's meaning within that western context, and while it is great to discuss the historic and continuing use as a religious symbol in India and elsewhere, to simply not discuss its power as a symbol of extreme racial prejudice in the West seems at best disingenuous. On a recent Facebook page it was (incorrectly, I assume from reading this page) proposed that the lack of discussion was itself a matter of neo-Aryanist, neo-Nazi influence. I suggest it would be good to counter that by treating its major use int he 20th century with a less subordinate position. Natcase ( talk) 14:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Something like: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia. It is an icon widely found in human history and the modern world.[2][3] It is known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, croix gammée, fylfot, or tetraskelion. A swastika generally takes the form of a symmetrically arranged equilateral cross with four legs each bent at 90 degrees.[4][5] It is found in the archeological remains of the Indus Valley Civilization and Mesopotamia, as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.[2][3] In the 20th Century, the swastika was the official symbol of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party and of the Third Reich government of Germany. As a result, it was adopted in Europe and later in other parts of the Western world after World War II as a symbol of Aryan, or white, supremacy and specifically anti-Semitism, and is used as a highly-charged symbol for those points of view by both proponents and opponents. I'd add a link to the URL above, and add links of course. Natcase ( talk) 18:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Natcase that the nazi-usage of the Swastika requires a more prominent place in the lead. Sorry to say, but this is the English Wikipedia. Most readers will come here to find out more about the swastika knowing that it is a Nazi-symbol; many will be surprised to find out about it's origins, and about it's opposite, religious meaning in Asian countries. In western Europe, the swastika is possibly the most offensive symbol in existence; in each city in western and eastern Europe which was occupied by the Nazi's you will find memorials for the millions of victims of this regime. There are no exact numbers, but think about 50,000,000 death. Talk with any person in Europe above c.75, and you'll get heart-breaking stories about the war and the Nazi-victims. That's a living reality here in Europe. It's tragic that this religious symbol was hijacked by the Nazi's, which is an eternal offense to Asian cultures, but it is a fact that the Nazi-usage is the prominent meaning in the western world, so it needs to be in the top of the lead. Something like [optional]:
The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, and a core-symbol of the German Nazi-regime (1933-1945) [and it's mass-murder]. It is also an icon widely found in human history and the modern world.[2][3] It is known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, croix gammée, fylfot, or tetraskelion.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia viewed as a symbol of noble values, as well as an ideological emblem of the German Nazi-regime (1933-1945) that is viewed in the Western world as a symbol of hate and mass murder. (...rest as suggested...)
.The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, generally standing for higher spiritual principles and qualities. It was adopted by the National Socialist (Nazi) Party and other nationalist and racist groups in Germany as their primary symbol, and so became a symbol in the Western world for philosophies and violent enforcement of white or "Aryan" racial purity, and particularly antisemitism. It is an icon widely found in human history... [rest of lede as is]
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia. It has been historically and is contemporaneously viewed as a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck prior to early 20th-century.[3a] It became the ideological emblem of German Nazi-regime, thereby evolving in the West as a symbol of hate and mass murder.[4a] (...rest as suggested...)
3rd para: (...current version...) The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre-World War I-Europe and later, and most notably, by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany prior to World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize Aryan identity and German nationalistic pride. To Jews and the enemies of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism.[9]
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It became an emblem of " Aryan race" identity and was adopted by the German National Socialist (Nazi) Party, thereby becoming closely associated in the West with hate and mass murder.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism.[9] (...rest as suggested...)
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It became an emblem of " Aryan" identity and was adopted by the German Nazi Party|.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism and thus with antisemitism and mass murder.[9] (...rest as suggested...)
You and I are getting close indeed. Let us avoid repetition because it is unnecessary, unencyclopedic and because it leads to one-sided overemphasis and NPOV issues. How about:
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It was adopted by the German National Socialist (Nazi) Party in early 20th-century as an emblem and became highly stigmatized in the West with hate and mass murder.[4a][4b] (...rest as suggested...)
3rd para: (...current version...) The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre-World War I-Europe and later, and most notably, by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany prior to World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize Aryan identity and German nationalistic pride. To Jews and the enemies of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[4a][4b]
I favor shorter, simpler, direct language. Your comments? Let us give others a few days to suggest further improvements / comments, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 08:59, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Tiger7253: Please do not edit war with Thomas.W. Please see the discussion above, from the beginning, and share any concerns you have. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 20:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
References
Sullivan2001p216
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).snodgrass82
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).holocaust2009
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).wiener463
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).p.97
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).britswast
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).MigSym
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Tiger7253: Difficult subject this is. I am not sure you addressed the concerns of Natcase, DavidWBrooks and others above. Please give them time to comment, and be prepared for a collaborative compromise if necessary. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 22:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi. I just stumbled upon this article, read the lede, and the first paragraph seemed really strangely organized. So I went ahead and edited it in order to place the information in (what seemed to me) a more logical order. Then I went to the Talk page, noticed this discussion, and self-reverted my re-organization of the first paragraph because it's obviously a contentious issue.
I don't want to jump into your discussion at this late stage, but I want to offer my perspective as an uninvolved editor: I think starting by mentioning the historical and religious use of the swastika in Asia, then talking about the Nazis, and then jumping back to historical and religious uses, doesn't make for a very good first paragraph. My first thought when seeing the first paragraph was that I should put the information in chronological order, and that meant the historical uses first and the 20th century uses second. Then I read the arguments above which say that the Nazi use of the swastika is extremely important and shouldn't be pushed down, and I agree, but the fact remains that if I hadn't seen the Talk page I would have just assumed the first paragraph was badly written.
An easy way to solve this would be to split the first paragraph in two, with the break occurring in between the mention of the Nazi use and the sentence "The swastika is also known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross..." This would have the disadvantage of placing alternative names in the second paragraph, but it would fix the problem I mentioned above, as it would no longer look like the first paragraph is just mentioning things at random.
In any case, I know the importance of consensus, so if the current organization of the first paragraph is the only thing that could gain consensus support, then that is understandable. I don't mean to re-open a can of worms. Ohff ( talk) 04:28, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The lead says: "but in the 1930s, it became the main feature of Nazi symbolism" and as source it lists the Holocaust Encyclopedia. The mistake is that it became a main feature of Nazi symbolism in the 1930s while it already was a main feature of not only the National Socialists in the 1920s but also the Völkisch Movement and paramilitary groups like the Freikorps. In fact, it was already used at the end of World War I by several right-wing movements, who btw, used it because the swastika in a circular/round design has been used since the late 1880s, mainly because there have been archeological finds earlier connected to germanic tribes using the swastika. If nobody minds, i'd like to correct the lead and add one of the many reliable sources for it. But since i'm new here, is it okay to use german language sources on english wikipedia? Thanks in advance ChartreuxCat ( talk) 20:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone else see the "Allahu Ackbar" right at the start of the article or am I going crazy? I tried to go to edit but it's not where it is in the article.
"The first attested use of the word swastika in a European text is found in 1871 with the publications of Heinrich Schliemann" (with citations that I haven't examined). As commonly with such claims, a quick visit to Google Books uncovers several much earlier examples. I think this reference to Schliemann should be simply removed. Zero talk 12:06, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
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User:Beyond My Ken, we've been through this before. Restore to stable/status quo ante is not a valid revert reason. As you can restore to your version, anybody else can restore to the version before your flurry of recent (bad) edits and call it the "last good version" or "status quo ante" or "stable version".
Your edits are against MOS, and unless you have consensus, for example, to put images out of their appropriate section or put images above section headers, then you cannot simply revert edits that correct these ugly, unsightly mistakes and follow broad Wikipedia consensus. Bright☀ 03:24, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) Sould the tessellation image be in the lead or in the section discussing tessellation? (2) Should the images throughout the article be above the header of their sections or inside their related section? (3) Should text be sandwiched between images in the subsection East and Southeast Asia? Bright☀ 03:34, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
On (1) and (3), no opinion. On (2), they should definitely be inside a relevant section and not at the bottom of a (potentially) unrelated section, per WP:ACCIM item 5 and MOS:IMAGES#Vertical placement. It does not matter whether they are at the top of the relevant section or part-way down it, but shouldn't be at the bottom. -- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 08:21, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
There is no coear question here and the whole RfC stinks of a vendetta against BMK. Legacypac ( talk) 12:07, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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The article has a {{ too many photos}} banner at the top. It says
The MOS (Manual of Style) says on this subject
and
This article certainly needs images, since it's about an image type and its various forms. Since the forms are various, and since there are so many of them, the number of images is (imho) not excessive. Nor are they of marginal value: they are all distinct and have names of their own. It's not as if there were twenty assorted images of the Nazi flag.
The MOS also addresses considerations of download size:
But that would defeat much of the point of the article, which is to describe the many kinds of swastika and tell their background. That bullet point might apply to, say, 15 portraits of monarchs in an article about monarchy, where the images are primarily decorative, but here they are intrinsic to the content. (In fact, Monarchy includes 11 portraits. It is a long article (40,899 bytes) with many sections, one including two portraits and the rest only one or none at all.)
I've been interested in geometric designs for over fifty years, and many of these I'd never encountered before, let alone their names and origins. I am removing the banner. -- Thnidu ( talk) 04:24, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
{{efn-ua|A right-facing double-arm swastika (mirror image of this one) was used by the [[Nazi]]s, beginning circa June 1944, for wearing by [[German Army (Wehrmacht)| Heer]] and [[Luftwaffe]] personnel on temporary duty as [[concentration camp]] guards.<ref>{{cite web|title=Holocaust - Rare concentration camp temporary assigned SS guard collar tab with double armed swastika - Dachau {{sic|horde}} |url=http://3reich-collector.com/concentration-camp-ww2-german/holocaust-rare-concentration-camp-temporary-assigned-ss-guard-collar|website=3reich-collector|accessdate=2 February 2018}}</ref>}}
User:Beyond My Ken, you have been told before that images belong below the header of the section that relates to them, not above. This consensus is reflected in Wikipedia guidelines and if you disagree with it, the onus to achieve a new consensus is on you. Similarly the discussion above, in which you apparently chose not to participate, has everyone agreeing that images should be placed next to the text describing them, again per MOS. Your usual arguments ("no consensus", "wasn't discussed", "not mandatory", "drive-by edit" and so on) are all indications of ownership behavior. Additionally:
This all indicates you're not interested in improving the article or listening to Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and consensus, and you're trying to force your preferred version over the one supported by Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and consensus. Bright☀ 09:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a lack of any details regarding the long historical use of the symbol among native peoples, prior to large scale European contact. The Diné peoples among others have a very long history of using it as a 'good luck', especially for children and for healing ceremonies where they refer to the symbol as "rolling logs" or "swirling longs". This contrasts with the per-Columbian use by native peoples such as Kuna, Hopi, Lakota, Passamaquoddy, and others; each with a differing understandings of the symbol, that sometimes differed greatly. C. W. Gilmore ( talk) 14:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I feel the first sentence of the article does not adequately sum up the Nazi connotations of the swastika, which to many western audiences is the main meaning of the symbol. This is an issue because it is only the first sentence that appears when linked to on the mobile app or searched on Google. I suggest therefore that the opening few lines be subtly rewritten. Levitating Scot ( talk) 12:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
The two flags in "Nazism" look identical. הראש ( talk) 17:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
From swastika § Historical use:
Besides being unreferenced, this text is about a similar-sounding (and probably related) word. It does not mention any Thai use of the swastika shape, which is the subject of the article. Deleted.-- Thnidu ( talk) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
This extremely broad phrase was substituted in the short description for the earlier, specific "Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism" by Wojsław Brożyna. It is unreferenced, at least in-line, and therefore is considered original research (and in my personal, equally OR opinion completely baseless). I have reverted it. The edit comment was "m (subst. (Wikidata also changed))", but I am not familiar with editing Wikidata and am going to request assistance on the Teahouse. -- Thnidu ( talk) 01:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USVA_headstone_emb-23.svg Zezen ( talk) 08:57, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikilink:
File:USVA_headstone_emb-23.svg
--
Thnidu (
talk)
19:09, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "personal websites, etc. are not reliable sources". -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Is the term "savaustika" really commonly used, and should it be used to heavily in the opening paragraphs? The article on Sauwastika itself makes it seem like a much less accepted word, "sometimes used to distinguish the left-facing from the right-facing swastika symbol, a meaning which developed in 19th-century scholarship" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.239.69.162 ( talk) 14:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Since I have a good feeling for language, my suggestion for what I consider to be unclean translations. Just as in Wikipedia Neuordnung ("Reordering") became New Order, "hooked cross" is also wrong. Hakenkreuz would have to be translated as hooks-cross, although it is not clear whether it is singular or plural, since Haken contains both. In my view, plural. So if one were to translate "hooked cross" back into German, it would read "Hakiges Kreuz" or "Gebücktes / Gebeugtes Kreuz" (Bent Cross). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B00:4776:F99D:EB08:83B0:87B5 ( talk) 05:05, 15 February 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 9 |
How to fake a 10,000 year old ukrain artifacts in a nation with 90 percent open far right population.
step one, buy a 10,000 year old mamoth tusk from the internet which is legal and actully cheap depending on size and colour. $200 to $8,000
step two, Buy or use a stone age artifact and start to carve your ideal pattern, if you want to steal the whole of asias history just pop down a crude swastika.
step three, Tell the world you have a 10,000 year old swastika because the tusk of the material carbon dates to 10,000 years and the stone age tools which scratched the design matches up with the tools in the ukrain museum and found in the area by novest hunters.
Step Five, publish the results on every far right website and claim its been authenticated & wait for the news to be spotted and popped up on wiki so that the history can fall back into the hands of the far right for another round of the dark age.
is Mukti Jain Campion an established archaeologist/historian? Ukrain cannot be used a ref of honest historian activity, not when the nation has some of the worst corruption while being drenched in nazi ideology. 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 18:34, 23 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
I'm speaking from a mystical Native American point of view. Clockwise sun wheels are facing to the LEFT, not to the RIGHT. Imagine an equilateral cross with one ribbon tied to each end. If the cross was turned counterclockwise the ribbons will orient to the right, and left when turned clockwise. In ancient European mythic and Native American tradition clockwise is for productivity, light, goodness. Counterclockwise is for negative things like curses and destruction. I understand that some very positive religions orient it the other way. I'm just pointing out the flaw of the statement that the article makes on what is a clockwise versus counterclockwise sun wheel. 173.93.254.111 ( talk) 12:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Strong-Oak
I do not wish to see any distortions of this page to appease far right cults in Ukraine, Norway, Netherlands, Italy, France, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Hungary, Austria, Germany..ect
I dont like the idea or method of using the website "sacred text" as a solid Ref, I find it to be of low calibre and less established to be given top page status on this wiki page refs and cits.
I Would also like to point out that The west as well as the chinese have been caught many times trying to pass forgeries off as Orginal artifacts, historians who have been caught in europe and in china explian how a object made today can be made into a 18,000 year old item just by treating it with radiation exposure which tricks the carbondating method, other methods are used to even trick museums with ease.
TOP established historians from asia and europe can give refs, But ukrains and other high far right nations should be given with due caution 92.236.96.38 ( talk) 17:39, 23 October 2014 (UTC)Caplock
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1) the source provided is not an academic source, it is a BBC culture piece 2) inspection of the picture of the artifact reveals no swastika, only some spiral motifs - here we get into the "million monkeys at a million type writers for a million years, and eventually you get Shakespeare" situation 3) The shape, even if is similar to more recent swastikas, did not necessarily have the same intended meaning as more recent swastikas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.173.20.99 ( talk) 01:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Kolovrat has no relation to the Slavs. It is used only Russian neo-Nazis. Please familiarize yourself with the opinion of the russian historian Roman Bagdasarov: http://www.webcitation.org/619kJgHL0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vladchekunov ( talk • contribs) 20:09, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Bkobres, regarding this edit by you, would you please take the trouble to actually read WP:EL? External links belong in an external links section; that's why it is called an external links section. It simply does not matter how long the links you restored have been there. They are inappropriate under a widely accepted guideline. Please feel free to restore those links in an external links section, but please do not feel free to restore them in the middle of the article's text. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 08:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
When did the Nazis ever use the swastika? The article needs serious cleanup. 112.198.83.66 ( talk) 04:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
As it was mentioned in quote 62, the kolovrat would be used by pro-russian seperatists, but that's not what is shown in the atricle quoted. There are pictures showing the kolovrat sticked to the uniforms of the Asow-regiment, which lately led an torch march in Mariupol after losing the elections. The Asow-regiment is strongly connected to the pro-western Ukraine "government" under Petro Poroschenko. SO it's just an attempt to make the russians look evil, instead of showing the reality, that the ukrainian government supports far-right neo-faschists like the Asow-regiment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:1340:1040:5477:D1A0:75E4:4B9D ( talk) 11:44, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
See the comment here: http://redpill.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=view&id=12993 for this image [3]:
I have looked and looked and can't find the Celt swastika. (Celt swastika looks like the Isle of Man and Triskel symbol.) AND I could not find many other from this image after a while searching. I feel like this image is a lie; it was once on the slide of the front page here: http://www.proswastika.org/ It would be great if there was some photographs of where these symbols were found because I cannot find much (except the Aztec one, which I found fan art on).
—User 0 0 0 name 03:58, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
According to the definition of satire (OED "Characterized by a sarcastically critical or mocking attitude to a person, situation, etc., esp. one viewed as foolish or immoral; expressing criticism in a sarcastic or mocking way."), all works intending to denigrate or otherwise show disapproval of a subject by comparing them to the Nazis, by implementation of a swastika, are satirical use of the swastika. I believe this tag to be inappropriate, but wished to note this on the talk page instead of starting an edit war. Gsnerd ( talk) 19:56, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
What was the Nazi (NASDP?) word for the symbol? "Hakenkreuz" or Swasitka, or both? Flightsoffancy ( talk) 19:29, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
probable PD-old [4]. Halfcookie ( talk) 21:04, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
In the early 20th century section, the sentence:
"The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi groups, and is used regularly by activist groups."
I'm not sure what activist groups are referred to here in a clause that comes directly after one about Neo-Nazis. I'll delete the second part of the sentence unless anyone can advise. Born to Donne ( talk) 08:23, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused by this line: "The pagan Anglo-Saxon ship burial at Sutton Hoo, England, contained numerous items bearing the swastika, now housed in the collection of the Cambridge Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology." First, what items from Sutton Hoo contained swastikas? Second, weren't the objects all deposited in the British Museum? The snipped view on Google Books of the cited source (Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, page 83) shows that "Cambridge Museum" and "swastikas" both appear on page 83, but it doesn't appear that "Sutton Hoo" does. Could someone who knows more, or has the source handy, clear this up? Thanks! Usernameunique ( talk) 09:49, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
Under this inset image
/info/en/?search=File:Brooklyn_Museum_74.218.25_Weight.jpg
it reads: "Ashanti weight"
"Ashanti" needs bluelinking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.39.37 ( talk) 02:46, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
I want to spotlight the unfair editing of this article by an Indian user, "Tiger7253". He persistently deletes and changes content, especially to convey the idea that the swastika is an originally and exclusively " Indian" symbolism, while it is found across all Indo-European-influenced cultures spanning Eurasia and the article is full of sources supporting this evidence.-- 95.232.135.117 ( talk) 14:03, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
More from p. 82 of the same book: "As for India, everything, so far, tends to show that the swastika was introduced into that country from Greece, the Caucasus, or Asia Minor, by ways which we do not yet know." Here a diagram showing the chronology of diffusion of the swastika. India is the eighth step!-- 82.54.75.3 ( talk) 20:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I usually restrict my edits to correcting bad Sanskrit, but in this case, I feel that I must speak out on the following points: 1) Attacks ad hominem will destroy Wikipedia. Courtesy is essential. Whatever one suspects, other contributors must be accorded the dignity of being treated as scholars unless they have been proven not to be. Proven, not suspected. A person's origin may well predispose them to a particular view. There is nothing wrong with that. Should we have only contributors of one particular background? I, like many others, refuse to have an identified background. (My pen name means "nobody" in Sanskrit.) 2. Indo-European, or Aryan, is a language group. Max Muller famously said that it makes as much sense to refer to the "Aryan race" as to talk of a "brachycepalic dictionary". The casual observation at the language family does not correspond systematically to any genetically defined grouping is confirmed by molecular biology. 3. Languages can spread by movement of peoples or by cultural influence. In particular, a small number of conquerors may bring their language to a new population, at times with very little change in material culture. If the new rulers are warriors, rather than, say, potters, decorative arts will be little affected. Conversely, cultural patterns can be transmitted independently of people or language. 5) The leading paragraph of this article, which asserts that the swastika originates in India, is clearly unsupportable, given the antiquity of the use of the symbol around the world - as far as Central America - as documented in the article itself. It may well be the case, but cannot be proven. 4. Nakashchit ( talk) 01:39, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
I left out 4) somehow: 4) The suggestion that there is a continuous pagan tradition in Europe, rather than a recent revivalist movement would need a lot of support, as it is contrary to received history. In paganism is indeed a revivalist movement, which we must assume in the absence of contrary evidence, it is far too insignificant to merit a mention in the first paragraph. Nakashchit ( talk) 01:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Good grief, can't we just leave out of the lead section the five words "originating from the Indian subcontinent"? If the exact origin is disputed, then the opposing current and historical views can be (and are) described in sections "Theories of Origin" and "Prehistory", where there is space to provide balance.
I agree with Nakashchit ( talk · contribs) above that languages, artistic symbols, and religions can spread separately. And that they may also spread through different strata of society, leaving others untouched. For example, a ruling class (or religious elite) may introduce a collection of language, religion, and artistic/decorative style and spread it to neighbouring areas through conquest, trade, or diplomatic relations without it ever filtering down to the common people in the fields. On the other hand, human history is also full of mass migrations.
Additionally, a geometric symbol can also arise independently in different places: just because it is invented in one place later than another, doesn't mean there was a direct chain of transmission. (Some of the examples of square spirals and knotwork included in the article – let alone the rounded versions – strike me as having only tenuous links to swastikas sensu stricto, but that's a topic for separate discussion.)
Given the above uncertainty, conflict, and possibility of multiple origins (apart from swastikas appearing in both places, is there any other good evidence of cultural transmission between Eurasia and the Americas in the same time frame?), surely pinpointing a single geographical origin in the lede is at best undue weight and at worst deceptive.
Pinging @ Tiger7253:, @ 95.232.135.117:, @ 82.54.75.3:, @ 87.4.91.167:, @ RegentsPark:, @ Kautilya3: – sorry if that is excessive notification.
To be clear: as a previously uninvolved editor who just stumbled on this discussion (I was looking for talk about merge with sauwastika), I propose to remove mention of swastika's origin from the introduction, and to cover the evidence, speculation, and differing interpretations only in relevant sections of the body.
Pelagic ( talk) 02:22, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
This article is over-laden with photos, to the point that it's almost unreadable, especially on any mobile device. It would take quite a bit of serious editing to pare it down, however. - DavidWBrooks ( talk) 20:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I have made a bold edit, and have done away with the bulk of the symbols depicted under the 'Appearance' section. The pictures of the symbols appear to have been added without any consensus and/or sources or references. For example, one such symbol - the Lauburu - is described as a 'Basque swastika' without any references alluding to it. It appears to be original research. Just because it is a four-legged symbol doesn't make it a swastika, which is a misconception many people seem to have. I have done away with the dubious symbols and have retained the obvious ones, like the Nazi hakenkreuz. Tiger7253 ( talk) 11:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
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I have restored Lauburu image, as it indeed is referred to as the Basque swastika in reliable sources. Please see 1, 2, etc. I welcome any concerns citing sources to back those concerns, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:33, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Same concept, variant spelling. Editor2020 ( talk) 20:42, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
I feel like this article has way too many images. Perhaps an image gallery might be better than stuffing the article. The Verified Cactus 100% 22:06, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Tiger7253: Please do not remove sources and sourced content as you did here and here, etc. Further, please note that NPOV is a binding community agreed content policy, and this article is no place to push a POV-y Hindu or Jain iconography. The collage was not available in the past, and the collage does include the previous lead image as one of the four representations. It does not matter if the article has or has not used a particular icon for a while. Therefore I have reverted your edit.
You also re-added unsourced content, one non-RS, and a fringe part with 11,000 year claim. Such edits do not meet wikipedia's verifiability and RS guidelines.
Please explain your concerns in accordance with wikipedia content guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 01:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
Kautilya3 ( talk · contribs): I believe that your revision as of 29 April 2017 is the fairest and most balanced version. Major edits have been made to this article since your revision, without any prior consultation with any of us who have had a stake in editing this article over the last few months. My attempt to revert these edits so that we can start from scratch with our input has been rebuked as 'disruptive', which is thoroughly unfair, given that I have agreed with a number of constructive edits on this article (including yours). I am hoping that we can roll back the edits to your revision and work our way up if that is what @ Ms Sarah Welch: would prefer. I am not in favour of a lead paragraph that diminishes the importance of the Swastika in contemporary Indic religions, putting them on a pedestal with traditions that otherwise died out centuries ago. The latter simply aren't as notable as the former to be given such importance in the lead.
It is particularly appalling to see that the Indian hypothesis of the symbol's origin (courtesy of the IIT) has been removed, making that section highly Eurocentric and dare I say, biased. Tiger7253 ( talk) 13:35, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
It seems very odd to me that the use of the swastika as the symbol of Nazism which lingers with great potency throughout the western world, is only hesitantly mentioned. As a balanced article, this should be in the lede paragraph, although certainly as part of a balanced discussion. Bear in mind that lots of people will be coming here to find out about the symbol's meaning within that western context, and while it is great to discuss the historic and continuing use as a religious symbol in India and elsewhere, to simply not discuss its power as a symbol of extreme racial prejudice in the West seems at best disingenuous. On a recent Facebook page it was (incorrectly, I assume from reading this page) proposed that the lack of discussion was itself a matter of neo-Aryanist, neo-Nazi influence. I suggest it would be good to counter that by treating its major use int he 20th century with a less subordinate position. Natcase ( talk) 14:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Something like: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia. It is an icon widely found in human history and the modern world.[2][3] It is known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, croix gammée, fylfot, or tetraskelion. A swastika generally takes the form of a symmetrically arranged equilateral cross with four legs each bent at 90 degrees.[4][5] It is found in the archeological remains of the Indus Valley Civilization and Mesopotamia, as well as in early Byzantine and Christian artwork.[2][3] In the 20th Century, the swastika was the official symbol of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party and of the Third Reich government of Germany. As a result, it was adopted in Europe and later in other parts of the Western world after World War II as a symbol of Aryan, or white, supremacy and specifically anti-Semitism, and is used as a highly-charged symbol for those points of view by both proponents and opponents. I'd add a link to the URL above, and add links of course. Natcase ( talk) 18:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Natcase that the nazi-usage of the Swastika requires a more prominent place in the lead. Sorry to say, but this is the English Wikipedia. Most readers will come here to find out more about the swastika knowing that it is a Nazi-symbol; many will be surprised to find out about it's origins, and about it's opposite, religious meaning in Asian countries. In western Europe, the swastika is possibly the most offensive symbol in existence; in each city in western and eastern Europe which was occupied by the Nazi's you will find memorials for the millions of victims of this regime. There are no exact numbers, but think about 50,000,000 death. Talk with any person in Europe above c.75, and you'll get heart-breaking stories about the war and the Nazi-victims. That's a living reality here in Europe. It's tragic that this religious symbol was hijacked by the Nazi's, which is an eternal offense to Asian cultures, but it is a fact that the Nazi-usage is the prominent meaning in the western world, so it needs to be in the top of the lead. Something like [optional]:
The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, and a core-symbol of the German Nazi-regime (1933-1945) [and it's mass-murder]. It is also an icon widely found in human history and the modern world.[2][3] It is known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross, cross cramponnée, croix gammée, fylfot, or tetraskelion.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:16, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia viewed as a symbol of noble values, as well as an ideological emblem of the German Nazi-regime (1933-1945) that is viewed in the Western world as a symbol of hate and mass murder. (...rest as suggested...)
.The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious symbol used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, generally standing for higher spiritual principles and qualities. It was adopted by the National Socialist (Nazi) Party and other nationalist and racist groups in Germany as their primary symbol, and so became a symbol in the Western world for philosophies and violent enforcement of white or "Aryan" racial purity, and particularly antisemitism. It is an icon widely found in human history... [rest of lede as is]
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia. It has been historically and is contemporaneously viewed as a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck prior to early 20th-century.[3a] It became the ideological emblem of German Nazi-regime, thereby evolving in the West as a symbol of hate and mass murder.[4a] (...rest as suggested...)
3rd para: (...current version...) The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre-World War I-Europe and later, and most notably, by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany prior to World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize Aryan identity and German nationalistic pride. To Jews and the enemies of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism.[9]
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It became an emblem of " Aryan race" identity and was adopted by the German National Socialist (Nazi) Party, thereby becoming closely associated in the West with hate and mass murder.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism.[9] (...rest as suggested...)
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It became an emblem of " Aryan" identity and was adopted by the German Nazi Party|.[4a][4b] In many Western countries, the swastika has been highly stigmatized because of its association with Nazism and thus with antisemitism and mass murder.[9] (...rest as suggested...)
You and I are getting close indeed. Let us avoid repetition because it is unnecessary, unencyclopedic and because it leads to one-sided overemphasis and NPOV issues. How about:
1st para: The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is an ancient religious icon used in the Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia, where it remains a symbol of spiritual principles and values.[1a][2a] In the Western world, it was historically a symbol of auspiciousness and good luck.[3a] It was adopted by the German National Socialist (Nazi) Party in early 20th-century as an emblem and became highly stigmatized in the West with hate and mass murder.[4a][4b] (...rest as suggested...)
3rd para: (...current version...) The swastika was adopted by several organizations in pre-World War I-Europe and later, and most notably, by the Nazi Party and Nazi Germany prior to World War II. It was used by the Nazi Party to symbolize Aryan identity and German nationalistic pride. To Jews and the enemies of Nazi Germany, it became a symbol of antisemitism and terror.[4a][4b]
I favor shorter, simpler, direct language. Your comments? Let us give others a few days to suggest further improvements / comments, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 08:59, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
@ Tiger7253: Please do not edit war with Thomas.W. Please see the discussion above, from the beginning, and share any concerns you have. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 20:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
References
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help page).holocaust2009
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was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).britswast
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).MigSym
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Tiger7253: Difficult subject this is. I am not sure you addressed the concerns of Natcase, DavidWBrooks and others above. Please give them time to comment, and be prepared for a collaborative compromise if necessary. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 22:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Hi. I just stumbled upon this article, read the lede, and the first paragraph seemed really strangely organized. So I went ahead and edited it in order to place the information in (what seemed to me) a more logical order. Then I went to the Talk page, noticed this discussion, and self-reverted my re-organization of the first paragraph because it's obviously a contentious issue.
I don't want to jump into your discussion at this late stage, but I want to offer my perspective as an uninvolved editor: I think starting by mentioning the historical and religious use of the swastika in Asia, then talking about the Nazis, and then jumping back to historical and religious uses, doesn't make for a very good first paragraph. My first thought when seeing the first paragraph was that I should put the information in chronological order, and that meant the historical uses first and the 20th century uses second. Then I read the arguments above which say that the Nazi use of the swastika is extremely important and shouldn't be pushed down, and I agree, but the fact remains that if I hadn't seen the Talk page I would have just assumed the first paragraph was badly written.
An easy way to solve this would be to split the first paragraph in two, with the break occurring in between the mention of the Nazi use and the sentence "The swastika is also known outside Asia as the Hakenkreuz, gammadion cross..." This would have the disadvantage of placing alternative names in the second paragraph, but it would fix the problem I mentioned above, as it would no longer look like the first paragraph is just mentioning things at random.
In any case, I know the importance of consensus, so if the current organization of the first paragraph is the only thing that could gain consensus support, then that is understandable. I don't mean to re-open a can of worms. Ohff ( talk) 04:28, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The lead says: "but in the 1930s, it became the main feature of Nazi symbolism" and as source it lists the Holocaust Encyclopedia. The mistake is that it became a main feature of Nazi symbolism in the 1930s while it already was a main feature of not only the National Socialists in the 1920s but also the Völkisch Movement and paramilitary groups like the Freikorps. In fact, it was already used at the end of World War I by several right-wing movements, who btw, used it because the swastika in a circular/round design has been used since the late 1880s, mainly because there have been archeological finds earlier connected to germanic tribes using the swastika. If nobody minds, i'd like to correct the lead and add one of the many reliable sources for it. But since i'm new here, is it okay to use german language sources on english wikipedia? Thanks in advance ChartreuxCat ( talk) 20:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone else see the "Allahu Ackbar" right at the start of the article or am I going crazy? I tried to go to edit but it's not where it is in the article.
"The first attested use of the word swastika in a European text is found in 1871 with the publications of Heinrich Schliemann" (with citations that I haven't examined). As commonly with such claims, a quick visit to Google Books uncovers several much earlier examples. I think this reference to Schliemann should be simply removed. Zero talk 12:06, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
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User:Beyond My Ken, we've been through this before. Restore to stable/status quo ante is not a valid revert reason. As you can restore to your version, anybody else can restore to the version before your flurry of recent (bad) edits and call it the "last good version" or "status quo ante" or "stable version".
Your edits are against MOS, and unless you have consensus, for example, to put images out of their appropriate section or put images above section headers, then you cannot simply revert edits that correct these ugly, unsightly mistakes and follow broad Wikipedia consensus. Bright☀ 03:24, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
(1) Sould the tessellation image be in the lead or in the section discussing tessellation? (2) Should the images throughout the article be above the header of their sections or inside their related section? (3) Should text be sandwiched between images in the subsection East and Southeast Asia? Bright☀ 03:34, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
On (1) and (3), no opinion. On (2), they should definitely be inside a relevant section and not at the bottom of a (potentially) unrelated section, per WP:ACCIM item 5 and MOS:IMAGES#Vertical placement. It does not matter whether they are at the top of the relevant section or part-way down it, but shouldn't be at the bottom. -- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 08:21, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
There is no coear question here and the whole RfC stinks of a vendetta against BMK. Legacypac ( talk) 12:07, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
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The article has a {{ too many photos}} banner at the top. It says
The MOS (Manual of Style) says on this subject
and
This article certainly needs images, since it's about an image type and its various forms. Since the forms are various, and since there are so many of them, the number of images is (imho) not excessive. Nor are they of marginal value: they are all distinct and have names of their own. It's not as if there were twenty assorted images of the Nazi flag.
The MOS also addresses considerations of download size:
But that would defeat much of the point of the article, which is to describe the many kinds of swastika and tell their background. That bullet point might apply to, say, 15 portraits of monarchs in an article about monarchy, where the images are primarily decorative, but here they are intrinsic to the content. (In fact, Monarchy includes 11 portraits. It is a long article (40,899 bytes) with many sections, one including two portraits and the rest only one or none at all.)
I've been interested in geometric designs for over fifty years, and many of these I'd never encountered before, let alone their names and origins. I am removing the banner. -- Thnidu ( talk) 04:24, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
{{efn-ua|A right-facing double-arm swastika (mirror image of this one) was used by the [[Nazi]]s, beginning circa June 1944, for wearing by [[German Army (Wehrmacht)| Heer]] and [[Luftwaffe]] personnel on temporary duty as [[concentration camp]] guards.<ref>{{cite web|title=Holocaust - Rare concentration camp temporary assigned SS guard collar tab with double armed swastika - Dachau {{sic|horde}} |url=http://3reich-collector.com/concentration-camp-ww2-german/holocaust-rare-concentration-camp-temporary-assigned-ss-guard-collar|website=3reich-collector|accessdate=2 February 2018}}</ref>}}
User:Beyond My Ken, you have been told before that images belong below the header of the section that relates to them, not above. This consensus is reflected in Wikipedia guidelines and if you disagree with it, the onus to achieve a new consensus is on you. Similarly the discussion above, in which you apparently chose not to participate, has everyone agreeing that images should be placed next to the text describing them, again per MOS. Your usual arguments ("no consensus", "wasn't discussed", "not mandatory", "drive-by edit" and so on) are all indications of ownership behavior. Additionally:
This all indicates you're not interested in improving the article or listening to Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and consensus, and you're trying to force your preferred version over the one supported by Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and consensus. Bright☀ 09:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a lack of any details regarding the long historical use of the symbol among native peoples, prior to large scale European contact. The Diné peoples among others have a very long history of using it as a 'good luck', especially for children and for healing ceremonies where they refer to the symbol as "rolling logs" or "swirling longs". This contrasts with the per-Columbian use by native peoples such as Kuna, Hopi, Lakota, Passamaquoddy, and others; each with a differing understandings of the symbol, that sometimes differed greatly. C. W. Gilmore ( talk) 14:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
I feel the first sentence of the article does not adequately sum up the Nazi connotations of the swastika, which to many western audiences is the main meaning of the symbol. This is an issue because it is only the first sentence that appears when linked to on the mobile app or searched on Google. I suggest therefore that the opening few lines be subtly rewritten. Levitating Scot ( talk) 12:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
The two flags in "Nazism" look identical. הראש ( talk) 17:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
From swastika § Historical use:
Besides being unreferenced, this text is about a similar-sounding (and probably related) word. It does not mention any Thai use of the swastika shape, which is the subject of the article. Deleted.-- Thnidu ( talk) 01:08, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
This extremely broad phrase was substituted in the short description for the earlier, specific "Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism" by Wojsław Brożyna. It is unreferenced, at least in-line, and therefore is considered original research (and in my personal, equally OR opinion completely baseless). I have reverted it. The edit comment was "m (subst. (Wikidata also changed))", but I am not familiar with editing Wikidata and am going to request assistance on the Teahouse. -- Thnidu ( talk) 01:38, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USVA_headstone_emb-23.svg Zezen ( talk) 08:57, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Wikilink:
File:USVA_headstone_emb-23.svg
--
Thnidu (
talk)
19:09, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "personal websites, etc. are not reliable sources". -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 02:17, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Is the term "savaustika" really commonly used, and should it be used to heavily in the opening paragraphs? The article on Sauwastika itself makes it seem like a much less accepted word, "sometimes used to distinguish the left-facing from the right-facing swastika symbol, a meaning which developed in 19th-century scholarship" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.239.69.162 ( talk) 14:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Since I have a good feeling for language, my suggestion for what I consider to be unclean translations. Just as in Wikipedia Neuordnung ("Reordering") became New Order, "hooked cross" is also wrong. Hakenkreuz would have to be translated as hooks-cross, although it is not clear whether it is singular or plural, since Haken contains both. In my view, plural. So if one were to translate "hooked cross" back into German, it would read "Hakiges Kreuz" or "Gebücktes / Gebeugtes Kreuz" (Bent Cross). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:B00:4776:F99D:EB08:83B0:87B5 ( talk) 05:05, 15 February 2020 (UTC)