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http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/pedani.pdf
A picture http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/images/ALBANESI/Maipesi.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 ( talk) 20:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Deucalionite, if as the source for your "Αρβανίτες Ελληνες" you mean the Ta Nea article you quoted to Matia the other day, read it carefully: it doesn't even ascribe that phrase to Barbarigo. If you know it is from Barbarigo nevertheless, quote me chapter and verse in the Sathas edition, plus the original wording in Italian or whatever language it was written in. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Aigest 06:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the term Greek mercenaries is correct. In the same article it is described that they were recruited from Albanians, Greeks and Dalmatians which are all different nationalities.
Let's use the term mercenaries instead without the nationality reference. Even the reference there "they are all greeks" I think probably it's used to describe their orthodox religion. There were no greeks at that time in Durazzo, not even in Napoli. Instead there were Albanian emigrants in Napoli (now called Arbëresh) and Albanians in Durazzo and they were all orthodox.
More than 80% of Stradiots were of Albanian origin the rest of them of Greek and slavic origin, most of them were of greek orthodox religion not of greek ethnicity.
Is it certain Stradioti were "recruited" in Cyprus? I've seen references saying Arvanite stradioti units moved to Cyprus and settled there at some later stage, but was it also a recruiting area? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the history of my ancestors many of them (Stradioti) were of Albanian extraction too. Does anyone have more information about this? One article I've read and is mentioned here in the Wikipedia article in the past is at: http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contessa arberesh ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC). Aigest 06:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC) I am preparig something about it and yes you are right.
-According to the sentence"Others seemed to be of South Slavic origin, such Soimiris, Vlastimiris, and Voicha." in the footnote, see a not good used analogu like soimir and vladimir,bouth ending with mir. In th case Soimir it is very transparent in albanian language from "the gentelmen kind" which is "gentelmen family"-- Flokarti ( talk) 14:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I've removed this part since this is complete of zero value. None of them meets wp:n. Guess another pointy edit by an old blocked troll Guildenrich. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, leave aside these comments, and make a comment on on Roberto Damiani as a source. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The only out of topic is you. I am asking for the third time if you consider Roberto Damiani a reliable source. Say simply yes or no. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Only an Albanian nationalist would place the sentence that 80% of Stratioti were Albanian in the second sentence of the lead. I mean, really. Athenean ( talk) 22:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
That's what the article says. By the way you completely messed up the references with your disruptive editing. [5] -- Sulmues ( talk) 22:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I didn't make any accusation against you. I don't think that common mistakes are a reason for accusing someone. Btw it would be prudent if you removed your comment about my comments. It's not against wp:lead because it's a summary of the section which includes names documentation etc.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
As long as we give information about the stradioti we should say where they were from, and as long as we say where they were from, and we have reliable sources on the percentages of nationalities, we might as well say them. A guy from Japan who hears "Stradioti" might be convinced that they are Italian. Then he discovered that that's not the case. So he thinks "where were these people from?" He reads a bunch of countries from the Balkans. Then he wonders, yes but who gave more Stradioti to Italy and other western countries? The answer is: 80% of them were Albanian. Very good information, which is important for the reader. -- Sulmues ( talk) 12:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I still fail to understand why reporting sources in both the body of the article and the lede would qualify as Albanian nationalism. The source btw is a Greek. The accusation that I am an Albanian nationalist is a heavy one and I expect apologies. I'm here to write good articles, not to represent any nationalism. All I do is write based on secondary reliable sources. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
And why would it be too much? The author is an expert in the matter and he highlights a number. Why would you hate the fact that in the lede the Albanians appear to be 80% of the Stradiotes? Again, it seems like all you do is worry about the ledes. Please focus on the body of the article first and then the lede is a summary. I haven't seen you bring decent contributions to the body of the article and you already got this article stuck because you insist in the lede presentation only. This is disruptive editing and you are not proposing anything constructive, you're just saying "Do me a favor and get it out of the lede, becuase it's too much for me to see it". I fail to see any reasoning behind your request. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I gave you a valid answer. I am following WP:Lede, which says that the lede should be a summary of the relevant points in the body of the article. The article mentions the 80% of the nationalities, so does the lede. You are not telling me why I shouldn't follow WP:Lede. -- Sulmues ( talk) 20:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
No, I am repeating you for the n-th time that my answer is I am following wp:lead. By the way this edit of yours [6] is unacceptable. Please don't take bets on my intellectual honesty, you might be surprized.-- Sulmues ( talk) 20:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Euzen can you please stick to the sources and not make or deductions?
Despite the fact that you're using a 1551 source, you're not even citing it correctly because the source says as you quoted it: Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari, which means that they were mercenary units from the Balkans, but you translated that as Contemporary historians call them
Albanians (Albanesi) or
Greeks (Greci). That speaks volumes regarding or. Also you don't even know what any of the terms meant at that time, and please don't delete other references.--
— ZjarriRrethues —
talk
08:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
I paste here the paragraph that your deleted. It is full of sources. You may explain what exactly YOU understand as a "source" and as "Original Research". There are many sources, not only the ones that you select, and published in numerous secondary and tertiary sources, like the ones I refer to.
If you claim that you know better what the terms "Albanian" and "Greek" meaned at that time, let us know.
"They were known as stradioti from the Greek word for soldier." (Ref.: Grande Enciclopedia Italiana, ed. Treccani, article Stradioti: "dal basso greco στρατιώται"). Contemporary historians call them
Albanians (Albanesi) or
Greeks ("Greci") (Ref.:
Pietro Bembo (original publication 1551), Storia Veneta, Venezia, 1780, transl. from latin to italian, pp. 154, 188, 198, 206 etc.), while modern essays recognise their mixed origin/ethnicity/language (Ref.:
[7] Sul Tutto, p. 3: "Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari ..." (Pappas).
A study of the stradiotti names in Venezian archives showed that around 80% of the listed names were
Albanian while most of the remaining ones, especially those of officers, were
Greek and a small minority were of South Slavic origin. (Pappas)"
You cannot erase and re-write history.--
Euzen (
talk)
08:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, if there is one physical person behind each username, the "other users" are the known company of 3 or 4 (is S. still banned or off duty?).
You don't cheat anybody whith the trick of "OR". The issue is very simple. Cardinal Pietro Bembo was indeed a well-accepted historiographer (e.g. see
http://www.enotes.com/literary-criticism/bembo-pietro ) and was contemporary of Stradiotti. His work is cited by many historians and this is why a Google search for "Pietro Bembo" or variants gives some hundred thousands of hits. However, if you feel that you can criticise him, go ahead. All I wrote in this article is that he calls the stradiotti "Greci" in more that 20 occasions in his History of Venezia. This is not my "interpretation", is the plain citation of an author. But if you do not like a 16th c. book and you prefer something 2nd or 3rd hand, I will bring one or two.
Still waiting suggestions for corrections in my paragraph. Bembo is here to stay.--
Euzen (
talk)
16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Evidently YOU are trolling. Here is what WP sais about O.R.:
"The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources."
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research)
If you are really particicating in this discussion, you are invited to indicate which source of mine is not reliable.--
Euzen (
talk)
08:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Though we may report the attributed opinions of reliable authors, articles should never include the opinions of Wikipedians themselves, even if you are an expert who has read any number of primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. Your opinions and interpretations do not belong in an article. But it is appropriate to document interpretations of events, data, or opinions, as published in reliable secondary source material. Peer-reviewed sources are especially valued. While secondary source material is most preferred, primary sources may also be used to report factual material provided the contributing editor states the fact in a manner that does not present an interpretation of the fact (original research) which is not itself explicitly contained in the primary source.
When you claim "Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks ("Greci")" You have interpreted a fact which is not itself explicitly contained in Bembo. If Bembo would have stated that "Historians call them Albanians or Greeks" that would have been ok up to the point of WP:RS of Bembo. But in this case that phrase is a conclusion made by you Euzen and not by any scholar. It is not important if it is right or wrong, it is your conclusion thus OR. Do you understand? Aigest ( talk) 10:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I created a new version. Sorry about a small mistake I made, but I was working on both this and another article-- Kushtrim123 ( talk) 14:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
You accidentally removed a number of sources on the lead picture. Zjarri was also eager to remove them, as he told me in my talk page. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Also if you have not access to Oxford Journals, although everyone can confirm this quote, you should better go to a library instead of blindly removing in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Yes, it's visible and as I said I'll revert myself, add the whole quote and remove the tag.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I didn't restore your first url because you sourced the wrong one p.191 instead p.192.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The albanian editors grabbed the citation of Pappas about "80% of the names" and turned the names to nationality statistics. However, in other articles the same editors have showed that even if the name does not sound Albanian, they turn it so and ... voila! The person becomes Albananian (e.g. see application of this method in Gregorios Argyrokastritis (
Gregory IV of Athens)).
Pappas is not "most modern historians", names do not mean nationality, and Sathas, who did the original research, does not refer to all stratioti.
However this is some info for the occasional "Japanese reader", provided that he will not read anything more about Albanian language.
Selective use of sources is applied in this article, as usual. Pietro Bembo, a first-hand witness of stratioti and widely cited historiographer, who calls the stratioti mostly "Greci", is vandalously erased by the albanian editors as ... original research! Poor Bembo! Does he have to remain out of WP together with Thukydides, Xenophon, Herodotus, Strabo and other "ORs" !-- Euzen ( talk) 07:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I have been concerned for some time that this article is failing to develop. Very little is being said about the service of stratioti, which is a weakly developed (coverage is noted as a weakness in the B class checklist). Yet a huge amount of e-ink is being spilled on the supposed ethnic origin of the troops. This seems to drift uncomfortably close to edit warring and, more disturbingly, seems to have a ethnic POV content. Could I then suggest that, in order to attract new editors who may be able to expand the deficient areas of the article, that this dispute is settled and the article stabilised? Thanks Monstrelet ( talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This small article and its links are part of an albanian project aiming at creating a medieval "albanian nation", when modern literature is clear that albanian national identity was hardly existing by the end of 19th c (e.g. Bernd J. Fischer (2005)
A Brief Historical Overview of the Development of Albanian Nationalism).
Check for instance the link
Mercurio Bua and discover that he was (what else?) "Albanian", when there are undeniable sources that he was a native Greek speaker, born in Greece and recognized by the Italians of his time as "Greco".
I will avoid edit-war. I am interested in military history and only history. If you can propose a way to bypass this electronic autarchism we can have a good war history article. --
Euzen (
talk)
12:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, but I don't think you and Aigest have any authority to give instructions to other users. --
Euzen (
talk)
09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Many times in the Western Europe "Greco" was a description for christian orhodox believers, for example the Spanish did call everyone from eastern mediterranes and orthodoxs for "greco" later it become even a word for non latin speaker, the Mexicans use still "gringo" which is a version of word "greco" to describe the anglo speakers of America, even the word for northern Albanians "Gheg" is a version of "greek", probably first used by slavs who migrated to balkan to describe non slavics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 ( talk) 20:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The guardians of the albanian POV are online 24 hours a day and delete references in milliseconds, as they practice in all related articles.
For the interested reader here is the list of the deletions.
15 Nov 2010, line 39, [
[10]]. They try to create an impression of temporariness around the Greek identity. The Greek city of
Argos, the oldest city of Europe, being Greek since at least the Mycenean period, the source of hundreds of texts on Linear B in Greek language, has to be a "modern Greek" city. Do they know history?
Here, [
[11]] they erased the etymology of "carabins" just because refers to a Greek word. The erased phrase:
Nov 6, 2010
I added: "From
Laskaris family: Isaakios Laskaris, killed in the Battle of Fornovo (1495), Demetrios Laskaris, son of Isaakios, ..." and was deleted.
The fact that authors report his death just because he is "Laskaris" does not mean anything to the ruthless vandal.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs)
19:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Nov 3, 2010
San Giorgio dei Greci is deleted and replaced by
Eastern Orthodox Church in
Venice!
Zar's rules! Does anybody else know the difference between the "Greek Orthodox Church" and a "Greek Orthodox Temple"?
--
Euzen (
talk)
12:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Nov 3, 2010.
Oct 27, 2010
The current section marked Middle Ages seems to have no direct connection with the topic. It may be justified to have a section on the period if we can come up with some evidence from the Balkans of the development of a light cavalry type which later becomes known as stratioti but 12th. century military settlement in Asia Minor seems irrelevant. Is there relevant medieval evidence or should this section go, so that the story starts with the Venetians in the late 15th. century?
Monstrelet (
talk)
08:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
This small paragraph is really odd in an article that refers to 15th - 16th century refugee-mercenary soldiers from the Balkans occupied by ottomans. The term "stratiotai" in various spellings was contiuously used from classical Greek through roman and byzantine periods and a separate article is needed on them. The pre-15th c. stratiotai have certain differences compared to the post-15th c. ones. For example, in certain periods the former were timariots with the duty to collect taxes by the peasants and give it the state.
I suggest we delete this paragraph and reserve it for a future article "Stratiotai".--
Euzen (
talk)
13:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I thank you for complimenting my work ZjarriRrethues and hope that you continue making good faith edits. Now if I'm not mistaken, your main grievance with my contributions is the removal of certain sentences and sources. Please bear in mind that no sources were removed, but that the the majority of the sources/citations I incorporated into the entry do not fully concur with the sentences I edited. Prior to my edits, the text in the first paragraph of the 'History' section seemed to appeal to only one perspective. Technically, the history of the entry is checkered with 'conflicts of perspective' none of which have brought any benefit to the quality of the entry.
To make a long story short, the changes I made to the article are necessary for three straightforward reasons: 1) balanced content, 2) professional content, 3) simple/intelligible content. Your good faith edits may have, in actuality, decreased the quality of the entry. And since my purpose on this project is quality management, I intend to restore the article to the version containing my edits. I will perform this action only once and write the following in my edit summary: "Stable Version: If quality of entry is diminished, please restore to this version. For more details, please consult discussion page. Thank you. [Inspector] No. 108". After I restore the article, I will cease making any further edits.
And as much as I'd love to participate in the "scintillating" debates here, I have no intention of quarreling with you or with anyone for that matter. Have a splendid day. :-) No. 108 ( talk) 05:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Technically, one citation, Floria, was accidentally removed (my apologies) from the first paragraph of the 'History' section even though the affiliated source was added to the roster. At the same time, however, the removal may have actually benefited the entry's quality given that non-English sources are difficult to verify by English-language readers unless translated (this applies to all non-English sources; please consult WP:SOURCES -> Accessibility -> Non-English sources).
As for WP:COPYVIO, its use in this case appears somewhat moot given that the Pappas quote was still present in the citations roster prior to my edits. And if I'm not mistaken, the sentences that certain COI's (of whom I don't care to name) insist on keeping are derived verbatim from the Pappas quote in clear violation of WP:COPYVIO. In any case, I cannot affirm any expertise on cyberspace policies and have little to no incentive towards fully comprehending the somewhat "Byzantine" nature of Wikipedia guidelines. All I know is that quality management is generally incompatible with COI edits that appear to exclude historically relevant facts in favor of unbalanced content. Moreover, if the ultimate goal of any policy citation is to preserve COI edits, then I'm afraid any effort towards providing readers with an impartially stable version is for naught.
Currently, the entry's level of quality has improved (aesthetically perhaps). But the article's development into a professional reference guide is, simply put, obstructed by unbalanced content. If and when the various COI's "migrate" elsewhere, I will gladly address the issues you've raised ZjarriRrethues and establish a more cogent version. And as always, please continue making good faith edits. Thank you. :-)
[This response is explicitly made for the sake of the record and not for the sake of debate.] No. 108 ( talk) 18:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Euzen please don't add fringe and outdated sources from the 19th century to change the obvious etymology of words like carabins, which has the same etymology as
carabiniers.--
— ZjarriRrethues —
talk
08:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Zar don't tell me what to do in WP. I know that you dislike everything that is GREEK but you cannot change history. If Sathas is "fringe" and "outdated" (provide sources on that), then other sources based on him (e.g. Pappas) are fringe & outdated, too. Be prepared for more Sathas, the only writer, as far as I am aware, that has studied stradioti extensively. He is cited by many. Article carabiniers does not say anything on the origin of the word. It just makes a cyclical explanation (points to carbine where there is no etymology). If you have other etymology please add it. And keep googling for "Albanian, stratioti".-- Euzen ( talk) 15:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
[a. F. carabin (16th c. in Littré), of disputed origin: Roquefort alleges an earlier calabrin, according to Diez, f. calabre an ancient engine of war, the name calabrin being transferred from the man who worked that to those who carried these fire-arms; but Littré inclines to see in it a transl. of Calabr{imac}nus Calabrian.
Calabre, also Pr. and OSp., is regarded by Diez as repr. medL. chadabula an engine for throwing stones, earlier catabola, a. Gr. {kappa}{alpha}{tau}{alpha}{beta}{omicron}{lambda}{ghacu} overthrow, destruction.] Monstrelet ( talk) 19:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted this [12] edit. The claim of an etymological connection between ancient Caria and 16th-century Spanish cavallery unit belongs to the category of "exceptional claims that require exceptional sourcing"; it is prima facie implausible. Especially since the source cited, Stephanus of Byzantium, is quite obviously irrelevant (he lived in the 6th century AD, so how could he conceivably be a source about Renaissance military?) According to Spanish etymological dictionaries [13], alabarderos has the obvious derivation that anybody with a scattering of Spanish could have guessed: it's from alabarda, the Spanish form of halberd (which, in turn, is probably derived from a Germanic word). Whatever it is that Sathas is saying, since we already had some rather outlandish speculation ascribed to him in the case of "carabiniers", we should be taking any further references to him with more than a grain of salt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments on history of words, but I wonder who gives you the authority to filtrate the informations added in articles and delete what you don't like. All alternative views must be displayed and, apart from you, there are more readers around who can also judge and interpret information. Untill you find that "Germanic word probably alabarda derives from" we can leave this unique in english etymological testimony, possibly with "according to ... possibly ...". Sathas is the only author, as far as I know, who studied in length the history of stratioti and you are unlikely to challenge him. Btw, article halberd needs some of your intervention, as reference No 3 links to an unsourced text, written by a person with no detailed CV but advertised as "the author of some twenty books. His key genre is history, but he has also published novels, children's books and academic works on prints and printmaking ... trustee of various art galleries etc". Stick around for more Sathas. He is a hell of a source on this subject. Translation to english is my courtesy to WP.-- Euzen ( talk) 21:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Why an albanian wiki-user deleted the Greek name version of Stratioti? -- Prodebugger ( talk) 20:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I post here a block of text and references that annoys some users and frequently delete it. What they don't like? The famous phrase "We are children of the Greeks" ("Έλληνες" in the original Gr. text of Nicandros Nucius).
ENGLAND
In 1514,
Henry VIII of England, employed units of Albanian and Greek stradioti during the battles with the
Kingdom of Scotland.
[1]
[2] In the 1540s,
Duke Edward Seymour of Somerset used Albanian stradioti in his campaign against Scotland.
[3]
An account of the presence of stratioti in Britain is given by Nikandros Noukios of
Corfu. In about 1545 Noukios followed as a non-combatant the English invasion of
Scotland where the English forces included Greeks from
Argos under the leadership of Thomas of Argos whose 'Courage, and prudence, and experience of wars' was lauded by the Corfiot traveller.
[4]
[note 1] Thomas was sent by Henry VIII to
Boulogne in 1546, as commander of a battalion of 550 Greeks
[5] The King expressed his appreciation to Thomas for his leadership in Boulogne and rewarded him with a good sum of money.
Notes
References
The Albanians learned to read and write about 80 years ago. They have now become quite good at it and are making up for lost time, trying to convince us that the whole world is albanian. Unfortunately none of the old sources support anything much of what they say. And of course they never wrote anything worth mentioning in their entire existence so we have to suffer their "interpretation" of what would otherwise be very clear sources. Their delusion that references to Greeks, means greek orthodox is typical ignorant nonsense. All the old sources starting from Anna Komnene and William of Apulia in the 11th century knew exactly which races inhabited the Balkans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenewinn ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Perfectly solid and scholarly but then the need for the dig at the Albanians at the end. What this article needs is to take broad approach to the military phenomenon of the Stradiot and to accept that stradiots came from areas which are now in both Greece and Albania. Take it as a challenge to bring this important Balkan contribution to Renaissance military history to an global English speaking audience, rather than a competition between Greek and Albanian editors.-- Monstrelet ( talk) 12:37, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Another good source of investigation is the Catepanate of Italy. You will find amongst the names listed as Catepans in the 11 Century, those of Exaugustos Boioannes and Michael Protospatharios. There could be more than a tenuous link between these names and those of well known Stradiot clans in later years - Buas and Spata .Another famous Catepan was Georgios Maniakes. His army, (a ragtag of Greeks, Normans, Italians, Varangians and others) fresh from defeating the Arabs in Sicily, deserted and stayed in the Balkans following his campaign to usurp the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX. Thenewinn ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
It is a challenge but one that would be worthy of further investigation. And don't forget that the Turks were also present as mercenaries in Alexius' army in 1081. They didnt miraculously appear in the 14th century either. The Palaiologos link is definitely a smoking gun. Thenewinn ( talk) 00:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I should also note that I am perfectly able to make the case without sounding like I'm pushing a modern Greek or Albanian POV. Personally I find the obsession of modern Balkan editors with any fact that will retrospectively support their current petty disputes quite annoying. It distorts the evidence of the primary sources and is politically motivated. Their ancestors would not have given them the time of day. Unfortunately there are still parts of the article that sound Iike they´re pandering to modern nationalist opinion. For example it talks about hellenization of Stratioti when at the same time it states they were up to 80% albanian. Is this from Papas? It is illogical in a period when the Byzantine empire was fading into oblivion and the Ottomans ruled the roost. The Stratioti wrote to each other in Greek and initiated Greek churches and made reference to ancient Greek heroes and yet we find it hard to accept the way they self identified. It would be like arguing that the 18th century English were not really English but French or Norwegians, since that's where their ancestors came from. Does every post 1066 article about England have to talk about anglicisation and mention that the individuals concerned were Norwegian? Is it not a bit absurd? anyway I'm probably overstating it. it's a minor article but I think it could be better. Thenewinn ( talk) 19:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
@ TU-nor:I don't know why you deleted the 80% of Albanian stratioti.The source says:"Most modern, as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian. This is true to a certain extent but has to be qualified. A Greek author made a study of the names of stradioti found in the most extensive documentary collection of materials dealing with the stradioti and found that some 80% of the names were of Albanian origin, while the rest were of Greek origin".
Also it says:" This investigation found that indeed many of the names were Albanian, but a good number of the names particularly those of officers, were of Greek origin".It doesn't say that 80% claim isn't true. Rolandi+ ( talk) 16:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes this is the best way! Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:31, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
The unnamed author is Kostas Mpires.This is the source: [1] So there is no reason not to include the 80% Albanian names.. Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
References
As has been agreed upon long ago, there is a consensus that the stratioti were mostly Albanian (80%). The rest were slavs, italians and greek. The name stratiotes can be mentioned up front because of it being used in biblipgraphy, then albanian, greek and italian. I dont have the source but it seems Pappas gives 2 theories on the names origin, so saying that the greek one is its orgin is not neutral Alltan ( talk) 12:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.[19] Although arguments on the side of the wayfarer theory predominate, the fact that some of the older Latin sources from the early 15th century use a variation of the Greek stratiotes tends to make this writer favor the "soldier" theory.There are only few Greek contemporary sources which make mention of stratiotes and outside Greek scholarship the term is considered more likely to come from Italian strada. Isn't it more WP:DUE to discuss the name at its specific section and leave only the historically relevant - regardless of etymology - Italian term on the lede? The other historically relevent term seems to be French estradiots which produced Spanish estradiotes. In Croatian, it is used as stradjot. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
…make this writer favor the "soldier" theoryclearly means he favors the derivation from Greek. As for the lead sentence, we need the Greek form as least as long as we're using the form with "t", Stratioti, as our article title, because that form can't be understood without it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Google Books is not a reliable search engine? First time I see that one. Do you have a source to base this on, or are we supposed to just accept this bare assertion? Google Books and Google Scholar are products of the same company, so what holds for one, holds for the other. Btw it looks like you "forgot" to mention that "Stradioti" stops after page 7 ( [15]), so even if we take your claim about "stratioti stopping at page 12 at face value (you haven't provided any evidence for this, but let's pretend), that's still 2 to 1 in favor of stratioti. Khirurg ( talk) 22:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Considering the nationality of various Stratioti added here [ [17]][ [18]] the issue remains highly controversial as its displayed in several correspondent biographies. It is POV to label various personalities as Greek or Albanian while their ancestors migrated 2, 3, or 4 centuries earlier to western Europe. The addition of red links is another controversial issue. We can't conclude if a personality passes wp:N threshold without even the existence of a correspondent article.18:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
2, 3 or 4 centuriesearlier to western Europe and they didn't have a different identity. Side comment: The Bua, Renesi, Capuzzimati in Italy still speak Albanian today. It's not a long forgotten identity which contemporary bibliography is putting forward as a historical classification. It's the living history of hundreds of families.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Editors don't agree which spelling is the WP:COMMONNAME and therefore likely to be most WP:RECOGNIZABLE. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 13:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.
stradioti is the term used by most sources. It is not only extremely unusual to base a move request on a single source as the nom has done, but the source used has absolutely no bearing on what is the common English usage. The "few Greek sources" that Pappas refers to are WP:PRIMARY medieval Greek sources that are discussed in the context of the origin of the term, and have absolutely nothing to do with common English usage. In fact the claim that
stratioti is used by few Greek sourcesis absolutely baffling in a modern context, since even a quick search of Google Books shows thousands of hits for "stratioti", in a 4:1 ratio with "stratioti" ( 8790 hist for "Stratioti" vs. 2070 for Stradioti). Even accounting for metadata errors in Google Books, the 4:1 ratio holds in favor of "Stratioti". The sole evidence presented by the nom is a flawed Google Scholar search, in which the majority of matches are non-English language publications, and a significant fraction of which are Italian, which naturally biases those results in favor of "stradioti". The nom has thus failed to make a compelling case that the article should be moved. This is one of the weakest move requests I have seen in a long time. Khirurg ( talk) 23:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.Alexikoua is wrong..-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
The bulk of primary sources in Italian such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto
and Venetian state documents
, use stradiotto/stradioti-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:13, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
It has been wrongly argued that this addition is a stable version [ [31]] nevertheless in fact its part of brand new addition [ [32]]. In simple words such controversial additions need consensus in talkpage first. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
controversial additionto write that the son of Peter Bua was Albanian? You added to the article some sources which you picked because they use greco- in an ambiguous way (he was born in modern Greece), but the ambiguity you're trying to imply isn't there in bibliography and it can't be part of the article about Mercurio Bua because everything is known about his family, his father and every other one of his relatives. It's WP:CHERRY picking against bibliography and reality on the ground. -- Maleschreiber ( talk)
In all, the Duke had 24 companies of gendarmerie, four of light horse, and four of 'stradiots' or 'Argoulets'—still called 'Albanians' (the last time that this name is found used) under an Italian named Mercurio Bua[34] It doesn't change the hard facts and what bibliography discusses.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
centuries ago. The Bua are Arbereshe families
today. WP:CHERRY farming sources and implying that his birthplace means something more than a geographical reference will cause many cross-article consistency problems. I think that editors who act responsibly understand the many problems that this particular use of bibliography will cause. Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
everyone that happens to have the same surnameMercurio Bua is not considered Albanian just because of the surname, but because his genealogy is known, he is the son of Peter Bua.
no matter where and when he lived, also this info is well known, he was born in Nauplia in Morea to an Albanian family in the 15th century and moved to Italy in 1489. What is your evidence for an ethnic Greek affiliation? You have to provide sources giving a clear description of his early life, not sources that just mention him in passing with a general lable 'Greek', which can refer both to the geographical provenance or the religious rite. – Βατο ( talk) 09:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
extraordinary view, it is a historical documented fact, and you can't dismiss it citing sources that just mention him in passing with the general lable "Greek". Again: you have to provide specific sources giving a full analysis of his early life supporting your claim of an ethnic Greek affiliation. His father Peter Bua was an Albanian leader in Nauplia, Mercurio was born to an Albanian family, and it is supported by strong historical evidence. – Βατο ( talk) 10:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
I have asked from Greek editors to provide quotes for verification when they cite dissertations in Greek. The non-PDF format doesn't allow verification unless you OCR the particular cited page. Accessibility is very important.
During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and interemarriages between those also occured.[25] Their contribution in the battlefield has been acknolwdged by Venice already from the First Ottoman–Venetian war (1463–1479).[26] The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), stressed that the Albanian stratioti were unreliable contrary to the Greek units which he considered loyal.
In Nafplion there were Greek and Albanian stratioti. The latter usually lived in separate villages from the Greeks. During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and intermarriages between them also occured. There were, however, also disputes between the two population groups. In 1525 it is reported by the City Administration that both the Greeks and the Albanians agreed to serve only under the orders of their own officers. The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient.In the notes of the same page the author writes:
Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti
@Maleschreiber can you be more precise in your arguments? I assume your real concern here might be that the paper offers additional information (in footnotes etc) that can be added in this article but accusing me that my additions are not backed by appropriate RS is unacceptable. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient.and b)
Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti. You kept the first part.
(information about Stradioti in Crete) (..) Language, a strong factor for integration - The stradioti were multilingual, a property that was a consequence of their movement in space and other environments: Arvanitika (Albanian and Greek elements in a hybrid language), Turkish and Italian, are the languages found. However, the Greek language seems to prevail, even in the core of homogeneous compagnie. The company of George Lykouresis in Chania was mainly Greek, although it consisted exclusively of Albanians. According to Venetian sources, those horsemen, much more farmers than mercenaries stradioti, parlavano in greco.The article can't discuss as a broad generalization a situation which was specific to Crete.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Maleschreiber, that's not what Korre presents. Korre doesn't refer to the stratioti of Crete exclusively, she refers to the languages used by the stratioti in general. The mention of Lykouressis is just an example she used, don't expect to cite everything she knows in a single page. The cited section is only part of a broader chapter beginning in page 474 and ending in page 506 that deals with the identity and characteristics of the stratioti in general (not just of Crete or the Republic of Venice). Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:25, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
[Βαθμός: Άριστα] - Η διατριβή εξετάζει τη λειτουργία του στρατιώτη-κατόχου αγροτικού κλήρου από τον 10ο αιώνα και εξής, βάσει αφηγηματικών πηγών και νομοθετικών κειμένων, αναζητώντας το θεσμικό υπόστρωμα ιστορικής εξέλιξης των stradioti των βενετικών κτήσεων. Βάσει δημοσιευμένων και ανέκδοτων αρχειακών τεκμηρίων, αναπτύσσεται διεξοδικά η πολεμική και κοινωνική λειτουργία των μελών της κοινωνικής αυτής κατηγορίας, διακριτής πλέον τον 15ο και 16ο αιώνα.Demetrios1993 ( talk) 09:34, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
About the engraving we've been using as our main illustration (incidentally, not a painting as falsely stated in the caption): do we have any (sourced?) information about which part of the picture is actually believed to depict stradioti? Evidently the picture as a whole is showing a panorama of the entire battle, not specifically the stradioti units in it. Most of the cavalry forces visible in it appear to be heavily armoured ones (with full-head helmets and heavy lances), so they wouldn't meet the description. The only candidates I can see are the bearded horsemen at the bottom left with their cylindrical hats. Is it them? Do we have sources for this? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, they were produced later. Specifically, the first one ca. 1830, and the second one between 1895 and 1906. If we are looking for something contemporary, i do like these following ones as well:
Alternatively, File:Estradiot engraving.JPG (1724), which is already within the article under Stratioti#France, can also be used as our main illustration. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:32, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
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http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/pedani.pdf
A picture http://www.nobili-napoletani.it/images/ALBANESI/Maipesi.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 ( talk) 20:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Deucalionite, if as the source for your "Αρβανίτες Ελληνες" you mean the Ta Nea article you quoted to Matia the other day, read it carefully: it doesn't even ascribe that phrase to Barbarigo. If you know it is from Barbarigo nevertheless, quote me chapter and verse in the Sathas edition, plus the original wording in Italian or whatever language it was written in. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Aigest 06:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the term Greek mercenaries is correct. In the same article it is described that they were recruited from Albanians, Greeks and Dalmatians which are all different nationalities.
Let's use the term mercenaries instead without the nationality reference. Even the reference there "they are all greeks" I think probably it's used to describe their orthodox religion. There were no greeks at that time in Durazzo, not even in Napoli. Instead there were Albanian emigrants in Napoli (now called Arbëresh) and Albanians in Durazzo and they were all orthodox.
More than 80% of Stradiots were of Albanian origin the rest of them of Greek and slavic origin, most of them were of greek orthodox religion not of greek ethnicity.
Is it certain Stradioti were "recruited" in Cyprus? I've seen references saying Arvanite stradioti units moved to Cyprus and settled there at some later stage, but was it also a recruiting area? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the history of my ancestors many of them (Stradioti) were of Albanian extraction too. Does anyone have more information about this? One article I've read and is mentioned here in the Wikipedia article in the past is at: http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Stradioti.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Contessa arberesh ( talk • contribs) 18:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC). Aigest 06:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC) I am preparig something about it and yes you are right.
-According to the sentence"Others seemed to be of South Slavic origin, such Soimiris, Vlastimiris, and Voicha." in the footnote, see a not good used analogu like soimir and vladimir,bouth ending with mir. In th case Soimir it is very transparent in albanian language from "the gentelmen kind" which is "gentelmen family"-- Flokarti ( talk) 14:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I've removed this part since this is complete of zero value. None of them meets wp:n. Guess another pointy edit by an old blocked troll Guildenrich. Alexikoua ( talk) 16:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, leave aside these comments, and make a comment on on Roberto Damiani as a source. -- Sulmues ( talk) 14:44, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The only out of topic is you. I am asking for the third time if you consider Roberto Damiani a reliable source. Say simply yes or no. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Only an Albanian nationalist would place the sentence that 80% of Stratioti were Albanian in the second sentence of the lead. I mean, really. Athenean ( talk) 22:08, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
That's what the article says. By the way you completely messed up the references with your disruptive editing. [5] -- Sulmues ( talk) 22:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I didn't make any accusation against you. I don't think that common mistakes are a reason for accusing someone. Btw it would be prudent if you removed your comment about my comments. It's not against wp:lead because it's a summary of the section which includes names documentation etc.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:53, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
As long as we give information about the stradioti we should say where they were from, and as long as we say where they were from, and we have reliable sources on the percentages of nationalities, we might as well say them. A guy from Japan who hears "Stradioti" might be convinced that they are Italian. Then he discovered that that's not the case. So he thinks "where were these people from?" He reads a bunch of countries from the Balkans. Then he wonders, yes but who gave more Stradioti to Italy and other western countries? The answer is: 80% of them were Albanian. Very good information, which is important for the reader. -- Sulmues ( talk) 12:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I still fail to understand why reporting sources in both the body of the article and the lede would qualify as Albanian nationalism. The source btw is a Greek. The accusation that I am an Albanian nationalist is a heavy one and I expect apologies. I'm here to write good articles, not to represent any nationalism. All I do is write based on secondary reliable sources. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
And why would it be too much? The author is an expert in the matter and he highlights a number. Why would you hate the fact that in the lede the Albanians appear to be 80% of the Stradiotes? Again, it seems like all you do is worry about the ledes. Please focus on the body of the article first and then the lede is a summary. I haven't seen you bring decent contributions to the body of the article and you already got this article stuck because you insist in the lede presentation only. This is disruptive editing and you are not proposing anything constructive, you're just saying "Do me a favor and get it out of the lede, becuase it's too much for me to see it". I fail to see any reasoning behind your request. -- Sulmues ( talk) 19:55, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I gave you a valid answer. I am following WP:Lede, which says that the lede should be a summary of the relevant points in the body of the article. The article mentions the 80% of the nationalities, so does the lede. You are not telling me why I shouldn't follow WP:Lede. -- Sulmues ( talk) 20:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
No, I am repeating you for the n-th time that my answer is I am following wp:lead. By the way this edit of yours [6] is unacceptable. Please don't take bets on my intellectual honesty, you might be surprized.-- Sulmues ( talk) 20:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Euzen can you please stick to the sources and not make or deductions?
Despite the fact that you're using a 1551 source, you're not even citing it correctly because the source says as you quoted it: Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari, which means that they were mercenary units from the Balkans, but you translated that as Contemporary historians call them
Albanians (Albanesi) or
Greeks (Greci). That speaks volumes regarding or. Also you don't even know what any of the terms meant at that time, and please don't delete other references.--
— ZjarriRrethues —
talk
08:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
I paste here the paragraph that your deleted. It is full of sources. You may explain what exactly YOU understand as a "source" and as "Original Research". There are many sources, not only the ones that you select, and published in numerous secondary and tertiary sources, like the ones I refer to.
If you claim that you know better what the terms "Albanian" and "Greek" meaned at that time, let us know.
"They were known as stradioti from the Greek word for soldier." (Ref.: Grande Enciclopedia Italiana, ed. Treccani, article Stradioti: "dal basso greco στρατιώται"). Contemporary historians call them
Albanians (Albanesi) or
Greeks ("Greci") (Ref.:
Pietro Bembo (original publication 1551), Storia Veneta, Venezia, 1780, transl. from latin to italian, pp. 154, 188, 198, 206 etc.), while modern essays recognise their mixed origin/ethnicity/language (Ref.:
[7] Sul Tutto, p. 3: "Gli stradiotti erano un Corpo di cavalleria, constituito principalmente da albanesi, greci, dalmati, bulgari ..." (Pappas).
A study of the stradiotti names in Venezian archives showed that around 80% of the listed names were
Albanian while most of the remaining ones, especially those of officers, were
Greek and a small minority were of South Slavic origin. (Pappas)"
You cannot erase and re-write history.--
Euzen (
talk)
08:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, if there is one physical person behind each username, the "other users" are the known company of 3 or 4 (is S. still banned or off duty?).
You don't cheat anybody whith the trick of "OR". The issue is very simple. Cardinal Pietro Bembo was indeed a well-accepted historiographer (e.g. see
http://www.enotes.com/literary-criticism/bembo-pietro ) and was contemporary of Stradiotti. His work is cited by many historians and this is why a Google search for "Pietro Bembo" or variants gives some hundred thousands of hits. However, if you feel that you can criticise him, go ahead. All I wrote in this article is that he calls the stradiotti "Greci" in more that 20 occasions in his History of Venezia. This is not my "interpretation", is the plain citation of an author. But if you do not like a 16th c. book and you prefer something 2nd or 3rd hand, I will bring one or two.
Still waiting suggestions for corrections in my paragraph. Bembo is here to stay.--
Euzen (
talk)
16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Evidently YOU are trolling. Here is what WP sais about O.R.:
"The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources."
(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research)
If you are really particicating in this discussion, you are invited to indicate which source of mine is not reliable.--
Euzen (
talk)
08:18, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Though we may report the attributed opinions of reliable authors, articles should never include the opinions of Wikipedians themselves, even if you are an expert who has read any number of primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. Your opinions and interpretations do not belong in an article. But it is appropriate to document interpretations of events, data, or opinions, as published in reliable secondary source material. Peer-reviewed sources are especially valued. While secondary source material is most preferred, primary sources may also be used to report factual material provided the contributing editor states the fact in a manner that does not present an interpretation of the fact (original research) which is not itself explicitly contained in the primary source.
When you claim "Contemporary historians call them Albanians (Albanesi) or Greeks ("Greci")" You have interpreted a fact which is not itself explicitly contained in Bembo. If Bembo would have stated that "Historians call them Albanians or Greeks" that would have been ok up to the point of WP:RS of Bembo. But in this case that phrase is a conclusion made by you Euzen and not by any scholar. It is not important if it is right or wrong, it is your conclusion thus OR. Do you understand? Aigest ( talk) 10:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I created a new version. Sorry about a small mistake I made, but I was working on both this and another article-- Kushtrim123 ( talk) 14:00, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
You accidentally removed a number of sources on the lead picture. Zjarri was also eager to remove them, as he told me in my talk page. Alexikoua ( talk) 14:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Also if you have not access to Oxford Journals, although everyone can confirm this quote, you should better go to a library instead of blindly removing in wikipedia. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Yes, it's visible and as I said I'll revert myself, add the whole quote and remove the tag.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)I didn't restore your first url because you sourced the wrong one p.191 instead p.192.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The albanian editors grabbed the citation of Pappas about "80% of the names" and turned the names to nationality statistics. However, in other articles the same editors have showed that even if the name does not sound Albanian, they turn it so and ... voila! The person becomes Albananian (e.g. see application of this method in Gregorios Argyrokastritis (
Gregory IV of Athens)).
Pappas is not "most modern historians", names do not mean nationality, and Sathas, who did the original research, does not refer to all stratioti.
However this is some info for the occasional "Japanese reader", provided that he will not read anything more about Albanian language.
Selective use of sources is applied in this article, as usual. Pietro Bembo, a first-hand witness of stratioti and widely cited historiographer, who calls the stratioti mostly "Greci", is vandalously erased by the albanian editors as ... original research! Poor Bembo! Does he have to remain out of WP together with Thukydides, Xenophon, Herodotus, Strabo and other "ORs" !-- Euzen ( talk) 07:50, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
I have been concerned for some time that this article is failing to develop. Very little is being said about the service of stratioti, which is a weakly developed (coverage is noted as a weakness in the B class checklist). Yet a huge amount of e-ink is being spilled on the supposed ethnic origin of the troops. This seems to drift uncomfortably close to edit warring and, more disturbingly, seems to have a ethnic POV content. Could I then suggest that, in order to attract new editors who may be able to expand the deficient areas of the article, that this dispute is settled and the article stabilised? Thanks Monstrelet ( talk) 19:19, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This small article and its links are part of an albanian project aiming at creating a medieval "albanian nation", when modern literature is clear that albanian national identity was hardly existing by the end of 19th c (e.g. Bernd J. Fischer (2005)
A Brief Historical Overview of the Development of Albanian Nationalism).
Check for instance the link
Mercurio Bua and discover that he was (what else?) "Albanian", when there are undeniable sources that he was a native Greek speaker, born in Greece and recognized by the Italians of his time as "Greco".
I will avoid edit-war. I am interested in military history and only history. If you can propose a way to bypass this electronic autarchism we can have a good war history article. --
Euzen (
talk)
12:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, but I don't think you and Aigest have any authority to give instructions to other users. --
Euzen (
talk)
09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Many times in the Western Europe "Greco" was a description for christian orhodox believers, for example the Spanish did call everyone from eastern mediterranes and orthodoxs for "greco" later it become even a word for non latin speaker, the Mexicans use still "gringo" which is a version of word "greco" to describe the anglo speakers of America, even the word for northern Albanians "Gheg" is a version of "greek", probably first used by slavs who migrated to balkan to describe non slavics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.209.156.131 ( talk) 20:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The guardians of the albanian POV are online 24 hours a day and delete references in milliseconds, as they practice in all related articles.
For the interested reader here is the list of the deletions.
15 Nov 2010, line 39, [
[10]]. They try to create an impression of temporariness around the Greek identity. The Greek city of
Argos, the oldest city of Europe, being Greek since at least the Mycenean period, the source of hundreds of texts on Linear B in Greek language, has to be a "modern Greek" city. Do they know history?
Here, [
[11]] they erased the etymology of "carabins" just because refers to a Greek word. The erased phrase:
Nov 6, 2010
I added: "From
Laskaris family: Isaakios Laskaris, killed in the Battle of Fornovo (1495), Demetrios Laskaris, son of Isaakios, ..." and was deleted.
The fact that authors report his death just because he is "Laskaris" does not mean anything to the ruthless vandal.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs)
19:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Nov 3, 2010
San Giorgio dei Greci is deleted and replaced by
Eastern Orthodox Church in
Venice!
Zar's rules! Does anybody else know the difference between the "Greek Orthodox Church" and a "Greek Orthodox Temple"?
--
Euzen (
talk)
12:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Nov 3, 2010.
Oct 27, 2010
The current section marked Middle Ages seems to have no direct connection with the topic. It may be justified to have a section on the period if we can come up with some evidence from the Balkans of the development of a light cavalry type which later becomes known as stratioti but 12th. century military settlement in Asia Minor seems irrelevant. Is there relevant medieval evidence or should this section go, so that the story starts with the Venetians in the late 15th. century?
Monstrelet (
talk)
08:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
This small paragraph is really odd in an article that refers to 15th - 16th century refugee-mercenary soldiers from the Balkans occupied by ottomans. The term "stratiotai" in various spellings was contiuously used from classical Greek through roman and byzantine periods and a separate article is needed on them. The pre-15th c. stratiotai have certain differences compared to the post-15th c. ones. For example, in certain periods the former were timariots with the duty to collect taxes by the peasants and give it the state.
I suggest we delete this paragraph and reserve it for a future article "Stratiotai".--
Euzen (
talk)
13:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I thank you for complimenting my work ZjarriRrethues and hope that you continue making good faith edits. Now if I'm not mistaken, your main grievance with my contributions is the removal of certain sentences and sources. Please bear in mind that no sources were removed, but that the the majority of the sources/citations I incorporated into the entry do not fully concur with the sentences I edited. Prior to my edits, the text in the first paragraph of the 'History' section seemed to appeal to only one perspective. Technically, the history of the entry is checkered with 'conflicts of perspective' none of which have brought any benefit to the quality of the entry.
To make a long story short, the changes I made to the article are necessary for three straightforward reasons: 1) balanced content, 2) professional content, 3) simple/intelligible content. Your good faith edits may have, in actuality, decreased the quality of the entry. And since my purpose on this project is quality management, I intend to restore the article to the version containing my edits. I will perform this action only once and write the following in my edit summary: "Stable Version: If quality of entry is diminished, please restore to this version. For more details, please consult discussion page. Thank you. [Inspector] No. 108". After I restore the article, I will cease making any further edits.
And as much as I'd love to participate in the "scintillating" debates here, I have no intention of quarreling with you or with anyone for that matter. Have a splendid day. :-) No. 108 ( talk) 05:09, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Technically, one citation, Floria, was accidentally removed (my apologies) from the first paragraph of the 'History' section even though the affiliated source was added to the roster. At the same time, however, the removal may have actually benefited the entry's quality given that non-English sources are difficult to verify by English-language readers unless translated (this applies to all non-English sources; please consult WP:SOURCES -> Accessibility -> Non-English sources).
As for WP:COPYVIO, its use in this case appears somewhat moot given that the Pappas quote was still present in the citations roster prior to my edits. And if I'm not mistaken, the sentences that certain COI's (of whom I don't care to name) insist on keeping are derived verbatim from the Pappas quote in clear violation of WP:COPYVIO. In any case, I cannot affirm any expertise on cyberspace policies and have little to no incentive towards fully comprehending the somewhat "Byzantine" nature of Wikipedia guidelines. All I know is that quality management is generally incompatible with COI edits that appear to exclude historically relevant facts in favor of unbalanced content. Moreover, if the ultimate goal of any policy citation is to preserve COI edits, then I'm afraid any effort towards providing readers with an impartially stable version is for naught.
Currently, the entry's level of quality has improved (aesthetically perhaps). But the article's development into a professional reference guide is, simply put, obstructed by unbalanced content. If and when the various COI's "migrate" elsewhere, I will gladly address the issues you've raised ZjarriRrethues and establish a more cogent version. And as always, please continue making good faith edits. Thank you. :-)
[This response is explicitly made for the sake of the record and not for the sake of debate.] No. 108 ( talk) 18:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Euzen please don't add fringe and outdated sources from the 19th century to change the obvious etymology of words like carabins, which has the same etymology as
carabiniers.--
— ZjarriRrethues —
talk
08:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Zar don't tell me what to do in WP. I know that you dislike everything that is GREEK but you cannot change history. If Sathas is "fringe" and "outdated" (provide sources on that), then other sources based on him (e.g. Pappas) are fringe & outdated, too. Be prepared for more Sathas, the only writer, as far as I am aware, that has studied stradioti extensively. He is cited by many. Article carabiniers does not say anything on the origin of the word. It just makes a cyclical explanation (points to carbine where there is no etymology). If you have other etymology please add it. And keep googling for "Albanian, stratioti".-- Euzen ( talk) 15:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
[a. F. carabin (16th c. in Littré), of disputed origin: Roquefort alleges an earlier calabrin, according to Diez, f. calabre an ancient engine of war, the name calabrin being transferred from the man who worked that to those who carried these fire-arms; but Littré inclines to see in it a transl. of Calabr{imac}nus Calabrian.
Calabre, also Pr. and OSp., is regarded by Diez as repr. medL. chadabula an engine for throwing stones, earlier catabola, a. Gr. {kappa}{alpha}{tau}{alpha}{beta}{omicron}{lambda}{ghacu} overthrow, destruction.] Monstrelet ( talk) 19:29, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted this [12] edit. The claim of an etymological connection between ancient Caria and 16th-century Spanish cavallery unit belongs to the category of "exceptional claims that require exceptional sourcing"; it is prima facie implausible. Especially since the source cited, Stephanus of Byzantium, is quite obviously irrelevant (he lived in the 6th century AD, so how could he conceivably be a source about Renaissance military?) According to Spanish etymological dictionaries [13], alabarderos has the obvious derivation that anybody with a scattering of Spanish could have guessed: it's from alabarda, the Spanish form of halberd (which, in turn, is probably derived from a Germanic word). Whatever it is that Sathas is saying, since we already had some rather outlandish speculation ascribed to him in the case of "carabiniers", we should be taking any further references to him with more than a grain of salt. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments on history of words, but I wonder who gives you the authority to filtrate the informations added in articles and delete what you don't like. All alternative views must be displayed and, apart from you, there are more readers around who can also judge and interpret information. Untill you find that "Germanic word probably alabarda derives from" we can leave this unique in english etymological testimony, possibly with "according to ... possibly ...". Sathas is the only author, as far as I know, who studied in length the history of stratioti and you are unlikely to challenge him. Btw, article halberd needs some of your intervention, as reference No 3 links to an unsourced text, written by a person with no detailed CV but advertised as "the author of some twenty books. His key genre is history, but he has also published novels, children's books and academic works on prints and printmaking ... trustee of various art galleries etc". Stick around for more Sathas. He is a hell of a source on this subject. Translation to english is my courtesy to WP.-- Euzen ( talk) 21:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Why an albanian wiki-user deleted the Greek name version of Stratioti? -- Prodebugger ( talk) 20:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I post here a block of text and references that annoys some users and frequently delete it. What they don't like? The famous phrase "We are children of the Greeks" ("Έλληνες" in the original Gr. text of Nicandros Nucius).
ENGLAND
In 1514,
Henry VIII of England, employed units of Albanian and Greek stradioti during the battles with the
Kingdom of Scotland.
[1]
[2] In the 1540s,
Duke Edward Seymour of Somerset used Albanian stradioti in his campaign against Scotland.
[3]
An account of the presence of stratioti in Britain is given by Nikandros Noukios of
Corfu. In about 1545 Noukios followed as a non-combatant the English invasion of
Scotland where the English forces included Greeks from
Argos under the leadership of Thomas of Argos whose 'Courage, and prudence, and experience of wars' was lauded by the Corfiot traveller.
[4]
[note 1] Thomas was sent by Henry VIII to
Boulogne in 1546, as commander of a battalion of 550 Greeks
[5] The King expressed his appreciation to Thomas for his leadership in Boulogne and rewarded him with a good sum of money.
Notes
References
The Albanians learned to read and write about 80 years ago. They have now become quite good at it and are making up for lost time, trying to convince us that the whole world is albanian. Unfortunately none of the old sources support anything much of what they say. And of course they never wrote anything worth mentioning in their entire existence so we have to suffer their "interpretation" of what would otherwise be very clear sources. Their delusion that references to Greeks, means greek orthodox is typical ignorant nonsense. All the old sources starting from Anna Komnene and William of Apulia in the 11th century knew exactly which races inhabited the Balkans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thenewinn ( talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Perfectly solid and scholarly but then the need for the dig at the Albanians at the end. What this article needs is to take broad approach to the military phenomenon of the Stradiot and to accept that stradiots came from areas which are now in both Greece and Albania. Take it as a challenge to bring this important Balkan contribution to Renaissance military history to an global English speaking audience, rather than a competition between Greek and Albanian editors.-- Monstrelet ( talk) 12:37, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Another good source of investigation is the Catepanate of Italy. You will find amongst the names listed as Catepans in the 11 Century, those of Exaugustos Boioannes and Michael Protospatharios. There could be more than a tenuous link between these names and those of well known Stradiot clans in later years - Buas and Spata .Another famous Catepan was Georgios Maniakes. His army, (a ragtag of Greeks, Normans, Italians, Varangians and others) fresh from defeating the Arabs in Sicily, deserted and stayed in the Balkans following his campaign to usurp the Byzantine Emperor Constantine IX. Thenewinn ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:39, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
It is a challenge but one that would be worthy of further investigation. And don't forget that the Turks were also present as mercenaries in Alexius' army in 1081. They didnt miraculously appear in the 14th century either. The Palaiologos link is definitely a smoking gun. Thenewinn ( talk) 00:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I should also note that I am perfectly able to make the case without sounding like I'm pushing a modern Greek or Albanian POV. Personally I find the obsession of modern Balkan editors with any fact that will retrospectively support their current petty disputes quite annoying. It distorts the evidence of the primary sources and is politically motivated. Their ancestors would not have given them the time of day. Unfortunately there are still parts of the article that sound Iike they´re pandering to modern nationalist opinion. For example it talks about hellenization of Stratioti when at the same time it states they were up to 80% albanian. Is this from Papas? It is illogical in a period when the Byzantine empire was fading into oblivion and the Ottomans ruled the roost. The Stratioti wrote to each other in Greek and initiated Greek churches and made reference to ancient Greek heroes and yet we find it hard to accept the way they self identified. It would be like arguing that the 18th century English were not really English but French or Norwegians, since that's where their ancestors came from. Does every post 1066 article about England have to talk about anglicisation and mention that the individuals concerned were Norwegian? Is it not a bit absurd? anyway I'm probably overstating it. it's a minor article but I think it could be better. Thenewinn ( talk) 19:28, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
@ TU-nor:I don't know why you deleted the 80% of Albanian stratioti.The source says:"Most modern, as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian. This is true to a certain extent but has to be qualified. A Greek author made a study of the names of stradioti found in the most extensive documentary collection of materials dealing with the stradioti and found that some 80% of the names were of Albanian origin, while the rest were of Greek origin".
Also it says:" This investigation found that indeed many of the names were Albanian, but a good number of the names particularly those of officers, were of Greek origin".It doesn't say that 80% claim isn't true. Rolandi+ ( talk) 16:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes this is the best way! Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:31, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
The unnamed author is Kostas Mpires.This is the source: [1] So there is no reason not to include the 80% Albanian names.. Rolandi+ ( talk) 17:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
References
As has been agreed upon long ago, there is a consensus that the stratioti were mostly Albanian (80%). The rest were slavs, italians and greek. The name stratiotes can be mentioned up front because of it being used in biblipgraphy, then albanian, greek and italian. I dont have the source but it seems Pappas gives 2 theories on the names origin, so saying that the greek one is its orgin is not neutral Alltan ( talk) 12:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.[19] Although arguments on the side of the wayfarer theory predominate, the fact that some of the older Latin sources from the early 15th century use a variation of the Greek stratiotes tends to make this writer favor the "soldier" theory.There are only few Greek contemporary sources which make mention of stratiotes and outside Greek scholarship the term is considered more likely to come from Italian strada. Isn't it more WP:DUE to discuss the name at its specific section and leave only the historically relevant - regardless of etymology - Italian term on the lede? The other historically relevent term seems to be French estradiots which produced Spanish estradiotes. In Croatian, it is used as stradjot. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
…make this writer favor the "soldier" theoryclearly means he favors the derivation from Greek. As for the lead sentence, we need the Greek form as least as long as we're using the form with "t", Stratioti, as our article title, because that form can't be understood without it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Google Books is not a reliable search engine? First time I see that one. Do you have a source to base this on, or are we supposed to just accept this bare assertion? Google Books and Google Scholar are products of the same company, so what holds for one, holds for the other. Btw it looks like you "forgot" to mention that "Stradioti" stops after page 7 ( [15]), so even if we take your claim about "stratioti stopping at page 12 at face value (you haven't provided any evidence for this, but let's pretend), that's still 2 to 1 in favor of stratioti. Khirurg ( talk) 22:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Considering the nationality of various Stratioti added here [ [17]][ [18]] the issue remains highly controversial as its displayed in several correspondent biographies. It is POV to label various personalities as Greek or Albanian while their ancestors migrated 2, 3, or 4 centuries earlier to western Europe. The addition of red links is another controversial issue. We can't conclude if a personality passes wp:N threshold without even the existence of a correspondent article.18:55, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
2, 3 or 4 centuriesearlier to western Europe and they didn't have a different identity. Side comment: The Bua, Renesi, Capuzzimati in Italy still speak Albanian today. It's not a long forgotten identity which contemporary bibliography is putting forward as a historical classification. It's the living history of hundreds of families.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Editors don't agree which spelling is the WP:COMMONNAME and therefore likely to be most WP:RECOGNIZABLE. ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 13:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
The question of the etymology of the appellation stradioti is further complicated by the various spellings and versions of the term in the primary sources. The few Greek sources, such as the Andragathêmata tou Merkouriou Boua, use stratiotes/stratiotai, the Greek word for soldier.[16] Latin sources, such as the dispatches of Jacomo Barbarigo, use the variant stratiotos/stratiotorum or strathiotos/strathiotorum[17] The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.[18] French sources, such as Philip de Comines, use the variation estradiot/estradiots.
stradioti is the term used by most sources. It is not only extremely unusual to base a move request on a single source as the nom has done, but the source used has absolutely no bearing on what is the common English usage. The "few Greek sources" that Pappas refers to are WP:PRIMARY medieval Greek sources that are discussed in the context of the origin of the term, and have absolutely nothing to do with common English usage. In fact the claim that
stratioti is used by few Greek sourcesis absolutely baffling in a modern context, since even a quick search of Google Books shows thousands of hits for "stratioti", in a 4:1 ratio with "stratioti" ( 8790 hist for "Stratioti" vs. 2070 for Stradioti). Even accounting for metadata errors in Google Books, the 4:1 ratio holds in favor of "Stratioti". The sole evidence presented by the nom is a flawed Google Scholar search, in which the majority of matches are non-English language publications, and a significant fraction of which are Italian, which naturally biases those results in favor of "stradioti". The nom has thus failed to make a compelling case that the article should be moved. This is one of the weakest move requests I have seen in a long time. Khirurg ( talk) 23:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
The bulk of primary sources in Italian, such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto and Venetian state documents, use stradiotto/stradioti, adopted by this paper, or strathiotto/strathioti.Alexikoua is wrong..-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
The bulk of primary sources in Italian such as Coriolano Cippico, Marino Sanuto
and Venetian state documents
, use stradiotto/stradioti-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:13, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
It has been wrongly argued that this addition is a stable version [ [31]] nevertheless in fact its part of brand new addition [ [32]]. In simple words such controversial additions need consensus in talkpage first. Alexikoua ( talk) 17:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
controversial additionto write that the son of Peter Bua was Albanian? You added to the article some sources which you picked because they use greco- in an ambiguous way (he was born in modern Greece), but the ambiguity you're trying to imply isn't there in bibliography and it can't be part of the article about Mercurio Bua because everything is known about his family, his father and every other one of his relatives. It's WP:CHERRY picking against bibliography and reality on the ground. -- Maleschreiber ( talk)
In all, the Duke had 24 companies of gendarmerie, four of light horse, and four of 'stradiots' or 'Argoulets'—still called 'Albanians' (the last time that this name is found used) under an Italian named Mercurio Bua[34] It doesn't change the hard facts and what bibliography discusses.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:35, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
centuries ago. The Bua are Arbereshe families
today. WP:CHERRY farming sources and implying that his birthplace means something more than a geographical reference will cause many cross-article consistency problems. I think that editors who act responsibly understand the many problems that this particular use of bibliography will cause. Thank you.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
everyone that happens to have the same surnameMercurio Bua is not considered Albanian just because of the surname, but because his genealogy is known, he is the son of Peter Bua.
no matter where and when he lived, also this info is well known, he was born in Nauplia in Morea to an Albanian family in the 15th century and moved to Italy in 1489. What is your evidence for an ethnic Greek affiliation? You have to provide sources giving a clear description of his early life, not sources that just mention him in passing with a general lable 'Greek', which can refer both to the geographical provenance or the religious rite. – Βατο ( talk) 09:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
extraordinary view, it is a historical documented fact, and you can't dismiss it citing sources that just mention him in passing with the general lable "Greek". Again: you have to provide specific sources giving a full analysis of his early life supporting your claim of an ethnic Greek affiliation. His father Peter Bua was an Albanian leader in Nauplia, Mercurio was born to an Albanian family, and it is supported by strong historical evidence. – Βατο ( talk) 10:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
I have asked from Greek editors to provide quotes for verification when they cite dissertations in Greek. The non-PDF format doesn't allow verification unless you OCR the particular cited page. Accessibility is very important.
During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and interemarriages between those also occured.[25] Their contribution in the battlefield has been acknolwdged by Venice already from the First Ottoman–Venetian war (1463–1479).[26] The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), stressed that the Albanian stratioti were unreliable contrary to the Greek units which he considered loyal.
In Nafplion there were Greek and Albanian stratioti. The latter usually lived in separate villages from the Greeks. During the Ottoman–Venetian wars of the 15th and 16th century Stratioti units, both Albanian and Greeks served the Venetian forces, and intermarriages between them also occured. There were, however, also disputes between the two population groups. In 1525 it is reported by the City Administration that both the Greeks and the Albanians agreed to serve only under the orders of their own officers. The Venetian commander of Nauplion, Bartolomeo Minio (1479-1483), didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient.In the notes of the same page the author writes:
Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti
@Maleschreiber can you be more precise in your arguments? I assume your real concern here might be that the paper offers additional information (in footnotes etc) that can be added in this article but accusing me that my additions are not backed by appropriate RS is unacceptable. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC).
didn't trust the Albanians because they created problems unlike the Greeks who were more obedient.and b)
Sometimes Bartholomeo Minio speaks favorably of the Albanian stratioti. You kept the first part.
(information about Stradioti in Crete) (..) Language, a strong factor for integration - The stradioti were multilingual, a property that was a consequence of their movement in space and other environments: Arvanitika (Albanian and Greek elements in a hybrid language), Turkish and Italian, are the languages found. However, the Greek language seems to prevail, even in the core of homogeneous compagnie. The company of George Lykouresis in Chania was mainly Greek, although it consisted exclusively of Albanians. According to Venetian sources, those horsemen, much more farmers than mercenaries stradioti, parlavano in greco.The article can't discuss as a broad generalization a situation which was specific to Crete.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Maleschreiber, that's not what Korre presents. Korre doesn't refer to the stratioti of Crete exclusively, she refers to the languages used by the stratioti in general. The mention of Lykouressis is just an example she used, don't expect to cite everything she knows in a single page. The cited section is only part of a broader chapter beginning in page 474 and ending in page 506 that deals with the identity and characteristics of the stratioti in general (not just of Crete or the Republic of Venice). Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:25, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
[Βαθμός: Άριστα] - Η διατριβή εξετάζει τη λειτουργία του στρατιώτη-κατόχου αγροτικού κλήρου από τον 10ο αιώνα και εξής, βάσει αφηγηματικών πηγών και νομοθετικών κειμένων, αναζητώντας το θεσμικό υπόστρωμα ιστορικής εξέλιξης των stradioti των βενετικών κτήσεων. Βάσει δημοσιευμένων και ανέκδοτων αρχειακών τεκμηρίων, αναπτύσσεται διεξοδικά η πολεμική και κοινωνική λειτουργία των μελών της κοινωνικής αυτής κατηγορίας, διακριτής πλέον τον 15ο και 16ο αιώνα.Demetrios1993 ( talk) 09:34, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
About the engraving we've been using as our main illustration (incidentally, not a painting as falsely stated in the caption): do we have any (sourced?) information about which part of the picture is actually believed to depict stradioti? Evidently the picture as a whole is showing a panorama of the entire battle, not specifically the stradioti units in it. Most of the cavalry forces visible in it appear to be heavily armoured ones (with full-head helmets and heavy lances), so they wouldn't meet the description. The only candidates I can see are the bearded horsemen at the bottom left with their cylindrical hats. Is it them? Do we have sources for this? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, they were produced later. Specifically, the first one ca. 1830, and the second one between 1895 and 1906. If we are looking for something contemporary, i do like these following ones as well:
Alternatively, File:Estradiot engraving.JPG (1724), which is already within the article under Stratioti#France, can also be used as our main illustration. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:32, 21 June 2021 (UTC)